A depressing day for British politics.

[yodasarmpit]

As the title states, a depressing day in British politics.

The BNP have gained a seat in the Euro elections.


The British National Party has won its first seat in the European Parliament after gaining more than 120,000 votes in the Yorkshire and Humber region.

Labour could be on course to dip below 20% of the vote in what Harriet Harman has called a "very dismal" night.

After the first two English regions to declare, Labour was fourth on 14.4% of the vote behind the Lib Dems on 14.8%, UKIP on 18.4% and the Tories on 28.1%.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8088133.stm

I understand many are feeling disillusioned with the state of politics and MP's at the moment, but there is very little excuse for voting this lot in.

[anthonyvop]

As the title states, a depressing day in British politics.

The BNP have gained a seat in the Euro elections.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8088133.stm

I understand many are feeling disillusioned with the state of politics and MP's at the moment, but there is very little excuse for voting this lot in.
Now you know how I felt when Obama got elected.

[Fred Basset]

A sad day indeed for the UK but you can blame Blair and Brown and the Labour party for it and its going to get worse as time goes on..

[steve_spackman]

Everyone knew this would happen. Truth be told, none of them did anything about it!!!

[Fred Basset]

From what i read its the BNP have 2 seats in Europe now

[Tazio]

I guess we have nothing over you in the "White Supremacy" department :(
I feel your pain!

[Hondo]

I'd love to see one of the outgoing politicians stop at the microphone on the way out and say "yeah, you think you got us on these silly expenses and a few unpaid taxes but wait and see how we're going to use global warming to break it off in you!" And they will.

[Dave B]

There's a tiny part of me which thinks that there could be a silver lining in all this.

For years the BNP have been considered a fringe party of unelectable nutcases and for that reason mostly harmless - good for a protest vote because there was no danger of them actually achieving power.

Now that they have two seats and will actually be required to do some work, hopefully it won't be long before their constituents realise that they don't have any policies beyond racism, and no clue how to go about the business of politics beyond posturing and playing the victim.

Once this realisation dawns, I'm hopeful the BNP will have set their cause back by several decades.

[christophulus]

Now that they have two seats and will actually be required to do some work, hopefully it won't be long before their constituents realise that they don't have any policies beyond racism, and no clue how to go about the business of politics beyond posturing and playing the victim.

That's certainly my hope. Hopefully it'll act as a wake-up call to everyone who stayed at home and didn't vote, this is what happens. The problem now is they have funding and some credibility, and along with a slick leader who can play a crowd we should be worried.

Although as a friend pointed out, their ability to actually do any harm as an MEP will be somewhat minimised by the rather bloated and useless European parliament, so we are at least safe on that front!

[Hondo]

There's a tiny part of me which thinks that there could be a silver lining in all this.

For years the BNP have been considered a fringe party of unelectable nutcases and for that reason mostly harmless - good for a protest vote because there was no danger of them actually achieving power.

Now that they have two seats and will actually be required to do some work, hopefully it won't be long before their constituents realise that they don't have any policies beyond racism, and no clue how to go about the business of politics beyond posturing and playing the victim.

Once this realisation dawns, I'm hopeful the BNP will have set their cause back by several decades.

On the flip side, they may turn out to be quite capable, becoming popular beyond their current level of support. People can say a lot of things to appear proper and politically correct but sometimes that secret ballot reveals an underlying reality.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=644208&posted=1#post644208

We already have a thread on this.


Hopefully now people might actually get off their arse and vote. An increased turnout would probably reduced the BNP's share of the vote. If you don't vote you can't complain.

[Hondo]

[quote="Brown, Jon Brow"]http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=644208&posted=1#post644208

We already have a thread on this.


Hopefully now people might actually get off their arse and vote. An increased turnout would probably reduced the BNP's share of the vote. If you don't vote you can't complain.[/QUOT

If you pay a tax, fee, or reimburse for unknown expenses on which you didn't have a vote, you can indeed complain.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I tend to agree with Dave on this. With any luck this'll simply serve to expose the BNP and shake-up the main parties.

[Garry Walker]

Great news, I opened the champagne bottle last night. :up:

[BeansBeansBeans]

Great news, I opened the champagne bottle last night. :up:

You don't drink that foreign muck do you?

[Garry Walker]

You don't drink that foreign muck do you?

Well, today is monday and I had some work things to do, so I thought a good bottle of fine brandy would be too much.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I always laugh when the BNP talk about indigenous Britons and how they are supporting them. Does this mean anyone with Roman, Saxon, Viking and Norman ancestors are going to get kicked out of the country too?

[Tazio]

Great news, I opened the champagne bottle last night. :up: :rolleyes: Why doesn't this surprise me?

[steve_spackman]

On the flip side, they may turn out to be quite capable, becoming popular beyond their current level of support. People can say a lot of things to appear proper and politically correct but sometimes that secret ballot reveals an underlying reality.

Agreed

[BDunnell]

Now you know how I felt when Obama got elected.

Precisely one of the reasons I laughed and laughed and laughed when that happened.

[BDunnell]

There's a tiny part of me which thinks that there could be a silver lining in all this.

For years the BNP have been considered a fringe party of unelectable nutcases and for that reason mostly harmless - good for a protest vote because there was no danger of them actually achieving power.

Now that they have two seats and will actually be required to do some work, hopefully it won't be long before their constituents realise that they don't have any policies beyond racism, and no clue how to go about the business of politics beyond posturing and playing the victim.

Once this realisation dawns, I'm hopeful the BNP will have set their cause back by several decades.

Quite right too. They have generally proved themselves incompetent and corrupt (or, worse, criminal) whilst in office in a way that makes any other party resemble a bastion of integrity and probity.

[BDunnell]

On the flip side, they may turn out to be quite capable, becoming popular beyond their current level of support.

No, they won't, because the abilities of their candidates do not go beyond the 'articulation' (I use the word loosely) of their most basic racist/xenophobic policies. To be a decent politician requires more than that.

[Fred Basset]

and the Labour party is really doing a great job LOL..

[V12]

No, they won't, because the abilities of their candidates do not go beyond the 'articulation' (I use the word loosely) of their most basic racist/xenophobic policies. To be a decent politician requires more than that.

In which case they'll soon get found out won't they. :up:

In the mean time the "mainstream" parties, instead of moaning about the fascists getting into power blah blah blah, should take a deep look at themselves and ask what is it about their own policies and conduct that have caused them to lose their share of their votes to what is at the end of the day a legal political party that has gained two seats through the democratic process.

I don't agree with some of their policies but it really grates me walking around my old University on the way to work being accosted to sign up to groups calling themselves stuff like "Unite Against Fascism" etc. saying stuff like the BNP should be outlawed simply because *they* don't agree with them. I believe that's called.....erm....Fascism.

[BDunnell]

In the mean time the "mainstream" parties, instead of moaning about the fascists getting into power blah blah blah, should take a deep look at themselves and ask what is it about their own policies and conduct that have caused them to lose their share of their votes to what is at the end of the day a legal political party that has gained two seats through the democratic process.

The expectations of those members of the electorate stupid enough to vote BNP are unreasonable. It's the fault of BNP voters, not 'mainstream' politicians. I don't like many of the policies of the current government and think that Westminster needs urgent reform, but none of this would ever make me vote BNP.

[Dave B]

Given that they "only" won two seats, the BNP have had a disproportionate amount of media coverage in the last few days, barely off the air.

And yet Nick Griffin, fresh from being pelted with eggs ( :D ) , is on BBC News bleating on about how their freedom of speech is being suppressed "as usual" by the media and an organised mob.

Anyone would think they didn't have any actual policies to talk about.

[steve_spackman]

And yet Nick Griffin, fresh from being pelted with eggs ( :D ) , is on BBC News bleating on about how their freedom of speech is being suppressed

Of course our freedom of speech is suppressed. Cant say boo to a goose anymore.

My dad used to be a policeman, until last year. He said that he couldnt deal with the amount of red tape and useless arrests he had to make because of the 'political correctness' gang.

[steve_spackman]

I don't agree with some of their policies but it really grates me walking around my old University on the way to work being accosted to sign up to groups calling themselves stuff like "Unite Against Fascism" etc. saying stuff like the BNP should be outlawed simply because *they* don't agree with them. I believe that's called.....erm....Fascism.

Could not agree more!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I've just seen the BBC's pictures of what the UAF did to Nick Griffin and I don't think it's the right way to defeat a party. UAF is just as bad as the BNP.

[Daniel]

Great news, I opened the champagne bottle last night. :up:

*shakes head*

You really are clueless aren't you.

[Daniel]

Given that they "only" won two seats, the BNP have had a disproportionate amount of media coverage in the last few days, barely off the air.

And yet Nick Griffin, fresh from being pelted with eggs ( :D ) , is on BBC News bleating on about how their freedom of speech is being suppressed "as usual" by the media and an organised mob.

Anyone would think they didn't have any actual policies to talk about.

I chuckled rather loud when I saw that :D

I've got a BNP leaflet that was put through our door the other day.

It says "No to EU rule & the Euro"?

Errrrr OK then why are you participating in the European Parliament elections?

Wuckfits!

[BDunnell]

Of course our freedom of speech is suppressed. Cant say boo to a goose anymore.

Er... yes you can. I never have any problem saying anything I want. What is it that you want to say that you can't? You can still say anything you want. However, not everyone will agree.

[Daniel]

Er... yes you can. I never have any problem saying anything I want. What is it that you want to say that you can't? You can still say anything you want. However, not everyone will agree.
I think the fact that you can't say reasonable things anymore in Britain is a myth spread by people with rather strange ideas of what is reasonable. Not a dig at Steve or anything but that's my view as an outsider who's been living in the UK for 3 years.

[BDunnell]

I think the fact that you can't say reasonable things anymore in Britain is a myth spread by people with rather strange ideas of what is reasonable.

Absolutely right — strange or, indeed, outmoded.

[driveace]

Yes this was expected in places such as Burnley ,and places in Yorkshire,but noboby mentions the success of UKIP,to be 2nd behind the Conservatives
This is not a true representation of British political voting,this is a protest vote about the snouts in the trough,and the greed shown by SOME polititions

[BDunnell]

Yes this was expected in places such as Burnley ,and places in Yorkshire,but noboby mentions the success of UKIP,to be 2nd behind the Conservatives
This is not a true representation of British political voting,this is a protest vote about the snouts in the trough,and the greed shown by SOME polititions

Which party saw one of its MEPs going to jail for fraud not so long ago, with another currently on trial for the same offence? Yes, UKIP. What a great, well-reasoned, intelligent protest vote against corrupt politicians...

[steve_spackman]

Which party saw one of its MEPs going to jail for fraud not so long ago, with another currently on trial for the same offence? Yes, UKIP. What a great, well-reasoned, intelligent protest vote against corrupt politicians...

They (politicians) are all corrupt, no matter what party it is!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Which party saw one of its MEPs going to jail for fraud not so long ago, with another currently on trial for the same offence? Yes, UKIP. What a great, well-reasoned, intelligent protest vote against corrupt politicians...

The real reason why UKIP did so well is because the general public are idiots.

[BDunnell]

They (politicians) are all corrupt, no matter what party it is!

No, they are not. That comment is utter rubbish.

[steve_spackman]

No, they are not. That comment is utter rubbish.

That comment is not utter rubbish. You have your views i have mine...

[BDunnell]

That comment is not utter rubbish. You have your views i have mine...

I have my personal experience. You clearly have none.

[steve_spackman]

You clearly have none.

Really?

[BDunnell]

Ever worked for a politician or in politics?

Come to think of it, do you have any evidence for every single politician actually being corrupt?

[steve_spackman]

Ever worked for a politician or in politics?

nope


Come to think of it, do you have any evidence for every single politician actually being corrupt?

I dont mean every single politician. Some do more than others, yet some dont.

I will say there are alot of good politicians around, yet they never see the limelight so to speak.

[BDunnell]

I dont mean every single politician. Some do more than others, yet some dont.

I will say there are alot of good politicians around, yet they never see the limelight so to speak.

Rather at odds with your opinion as expressed here:


They (politicians) are all corrupt, no matter what party it is!

[steve_spackman]

Rather at odds with your opinion as expressed here:

Ok i typed it wrong..big deal.. :rolleyes:

[steve_spackman]

What do we think about Sinn Fein MEPs going to Brussels and holding seats in Westminster? They killed innocent British people, yet not a single moan or groan being thrown their way.

[Dave B]

So far as I know, Sinn Fein never took up their seats in the Commons (although still managed to claim their fair share of expenses, strangely enough).

Back to the BNP: they keep whining that they're not being given a fair platform to get their opinions over; blaming a shadowy conspiracy of far-left protesters, the media, and the established parties. Seeing Nick Griffin dodging rotten eggs was hilarious, but I must admit to being slightly uncomfortable with unlawful protests against a lawful political party, no matter how repugnant their views.

So I've had an idea. Give them their own prime-time programme on BBC One every night for a week. It could replace The One Show, the viewing figures are laughable. Get an impartial moderator in, open the phone lines for public questions, and let's hear what they've got to say. Then let's probe them, place them under scrutiny, find out their real policies. All in a polite and civilised way.

During this whole campaign I've been asking supporters and sympathisers why they side with the BNP, and none can come up with a reasonable answer beyond the usual "other parties are corrupt" standard line.

If my idea for The One (Race) Show ever comes to fruition, we'd know once and for all whether the BNP are a credible political force, or merely a bunch of self-serving publicity-seeking facists.

[Daniel]

So far as I know, Sinn Fein never took up their seats in the Commons (although still managed to claim their fair share of expenses, strangely enough).

Back to the BNP: they keep whining that they're not being given a fair platform to get their opinions over; blaming a shadowy conspiracy of far-left protesters, the media, and the established parties. Seeing Nick Griffin dodging rotten eggs was hilarious, but I must admit to being slightly uncomfortable with unlawful protests against a lawful political party, no matter how repugnant their views.

So I've had an idea. Give them their own prime-time programme on BBC One every night for a week. It could replace The One Show, the viewing figures are laughable. Get an impartial moderator in, open the phone lines for public questions, and let's hear what they've got to say. Then let's probe them, place them under scrutiny, find out their real policies. All in a polite and civilised way.

During this whole campaign I've been asking supporters and sympathisers why they side with the BNP, and none can come up with a reasonable answer beyond the usual "other parties are corrupt" standard line.

If my idea for The One (Race) Show ever comes to fruition, we'd know once and for all whether the BNP are a credible political force, or merely a bunch of self-serving publicity-seeking facists.
The One Show is a bag of crap isn't it? It's a sort of easy listening radio program for the TV :mark:

The "all politicians are corrupt" thing is laughable. Why when someone becomes an MP do they suddenly become corrupt instantly? It's just an argument for people who really don't have any proper arguments to gain the votes of those who just aren't all that intelligent.

I get to speak to about 30 or 40 different people every day and it really is depressing how thick and stupid some people are. They take what the media say as complete fact and if it's said about a few banks, politicians etc etc it must be true for all of them :mark: The funny thing is the vast majority of foreign born people I speak to (I have to ask everyone their place of birth for security) have well rounded and well founded views when you get chatting to them, it's the people who consider themselves British born and bred that seem to be the thickest. No one has ever actually come out and said it but there is very much an undercurrent of wanting Britain for the British :uhoh: It also seems to be a very much north moreso than south thing too as the BNP vote seems to suggest.

[Dave B]

It also seems to be a very much north moreso than south thing too as the BNP vote seems to suggest.
In my limited experience I'd say the the north are perhaps more vocal about it, but there's plenty of racism and xenophobia behind the net curtains down south. When the BNP membership list leaked out I was quite shocked to find my street mentioned (admittedly there's nearly a thousand houses in my road, but still...)

[Dave B]

I've been trying to find some BNP policies. So far I've found out that global warming is a hoax, and that one of their candidates believes rape is perfectly acceptable.


I've never understood why so many men have allowed themselves to be brainwashed by the feminazi myth machine into believing that rape is such a serious crime ... Rape is simply sex. Women enjoy sex, so rape cannot be such a terrible physical ordeal.

To suggest that rape, when conducted without violence, is a serious crime is like suggesting that forcefeeding a woman chocolate cake is a heinous offence. A woman would be more inconvenienced by having her handbag snatched.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-mayor/article-23470426-details/Women+more+troubled+by+bag+theft+than+rape,+BNP+ca ndidate+claims/article.do

:s

[Daniel]

In my limited experience I'd say the the north are perhaps more vocal about it, but there's plenty of racism and xenophobia behind the net curtains down south. When the BNP membership list leaked out I was quite shocked to find my street mentioned (admittedly there's nearly a thousand houses in my road, but still...)
True true. But remember that if people are surrounded by people who are vocal about something then more people will tend to side with them compared to people who hold the same views but keep quiet about it.

Good ole wikileaks :D

http://wikileaks.org/leak/bnp-membership-list.txt

There are a few in a nearby town to us! Thankfully none in our village though I suspect there are a few people who probably side with the British Nazi Party.

[Daniel]

I've been trying to find some BNP policies. So far I've found out that global warming is a hoax, and that one of their candidates believes rape is perfectly acceptable.



http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-mayor/article-23470426-details/Women+more+troubled+by+bag+theft+than+rape,+BNP+ca ndidate+claims/article.do

:s
I liked one of the comments on that story


Ironic that Mr Eriksen's comments align so closely with those of the more extreme versions of Islam - women should stay home and care for their men, a good 'slap' is what's needed to keep them in line, and that rape isn't really rape as the women want sex/are asking for it.

But most interesting is that if one searches the origins of the name 'Eriksen', it comes from Norway/Denmark - last time I looked at a map, that was outside of the UK. This particular 'British' person doesn't want 'foreigners' like that in our country - send him back!

- English For As Many Generations As We Can Trace, London, UK

[Garry Walker]

I don't agree with some of their policies but it really grates me walking around my old University on the way to work being accosted to sign up to groups calling themselves stuff like "Unite Against Fascism" etc. saying stuff like the BNP should be outlawed simply because *they* don't agree with them. I believe that's called.....erm....Fascism.

It always amuses me how the ones talking about tolerance, are often the most intolerant people out there, accusing everyone who doesnt subscribe to their views as bigotted and racist.


*shakes head*

You really are clueless aren't you.

Coming from someone like you, I take it as a compliment.


The real reason why UKIP did so well is because the general public are idiots.

And you are the intelligent one, with the life experience and knowledge :rotflmao:

[BDunnell]

The "all politicians are corrupt" thing is laughable. Why when someone becomes an MP do they suddenly become corrupt instantly? It's just an argument for people who really don't have any proper arguments to gain the votes of those who just aren't all that intelligent.

Yes, when used by political parties, you are quite right. The fact that some here seem to subscribe to this view says far more about them than it does about politics and politicians.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

And you are the intelligent one, with the life experience and knowledge :rotflmao:

Even a relatively Eurosceptic conservative called William Hague said that it would be disastrous for Britain to leave the EU.

"I can't possibly see that it would be in the interest of this country to withdraw from the European Union," he said.

UKIP says that Britain is better off outside the EU. Yet anyone who has studied European Economics knows that this is a ridiculous thing to suggest. I can't help but feel UKIP wants us out of the EU for similar reasons to the BNP. By this I mean immigration.

Having studied European Economics at university I feel that I have a lot more education on EU issues than a majority of the British public. Most of the people I know who voted UKIP purely based their decision on things such as 'the evil metric system' and 'straight banana's'. And most of these people seem to be lacking the ability to think for themselves. They have just read what the tabloids print and believe it.

[Dave B]

UKIP says that Britain is better off outside the EU. Yet anyone who has study European Economics knows that this is a ridiculous thing to suggest. I can't help but feel UKIP wants us out of the EU for similar reasons to the BNP. By this I mean immigration.
Quite. While I find the BNP repugnant, I can't help but respect their honesty. They freely admit to being a "whites only" party, and have clearly defined (if abhorrent) policies on immigration and repatriation.

UKIP on the other hand dress themselves as the respectable voice of protest, representing the downtrodden, but I suspect they're closer to the BNP on some issues than they'd ever dare admit.

[BDunnell]

Having studied European Economics at university I feel that I have a lot more education on EU issues than a majority of the British public.

Unfortunately, I would suggest that certain people criticising your viewpoint on here are the sort of tiresome individuals who decry the value of academic study on such subjects when compared with what 'the university of life' teaches you - a university which generally, it seems, has as its main core texts the Sun and the Daily Mail and tells its students that they need not read them for anything longer than five seconds.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The BNP has members of Parliament? REALLY? OH my.......

You Brits have one upped the Yanks, you elected people who would go to a KKK rally in Alabama and feel comfortable. At least Americans don't have a critical mass of people THAT stupid.....

[BDunnell]

The BNP has members of Parliament? REALLY? OH my.......

Members of the European Parliament.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Members of the European Parliament.

I heard that most people don't take that seriously, but still. You cannot find a politician in the US (other than Senator Robert Byrd) who has ever once admitted or even come close to the KKK ever getting elected to anyting past DOG catcher. The so called "racist" lobby in the US is supposed to be a major force in American society but they haven't elected anyone to any office holding views similar to these white supremist yo-yo's in the UK. Scary stuff....

[COD]

Maybe the leading political parties should look at the politics they are doing and changing their views instead of blaming people for votin "vrong".

That's called democracy, people are allowed to vote for what they believe in...

[BDunnell]

I heard that most people don't take that seriously, but still. You cannot find a politician in the US (other than Senator Robert Byrd) who has ever once admitted or even come close to the KKK ever getting elected to anyting past DOG catcher. The so called "racist" lobby in the US is supposed to be a major force in American society but they haven't elected anyone to any office holding views similar to these white supremist yo-yo's in the UK. Scary stuff....

What is absolutely appalling, I read tonight, is that one of the two BNP MEPs that was elected is a former member of the National Front who once shouted 'Death to all Jews' while out leafleting for the NF in Leeds city centre. Given that the BNP has been evoking imagery of the Second World War and our fight against fascism during its campaigning, it becomes even more clear than ever that (a) the BNP is far more hypocritical than any of the mainstream parties whose incompetence and corruption it derides, and that (b) the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of those that voted BNP knows no bounds.

This, in short, is a big part of the reason why the notion that this should serve as some sort of 'wake-up call' to mainstream politicians is ridiculous. Those who are taken in by the BNP are beyond help if they think that voting for this disgusting party is a sensible, legitimate protest vote.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Here's Nick Griffin's personal bodyguard Mick Holmes.

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger2/5122/461198182140281/227/z/391077/gse_multipart30473.jpg

http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger2/5122/461198182140281/227/z/197630/gse_multipart27765.jpg

On an NF march a few years back.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_eZy7ckbzk28/R4Ii6rYNeyI/AAAAAAAAACo/EKlEm-uay50/s400/GriffinWhitePowerT0001.jpg

The founder of the BNP, John Tyndal, is pictured on the left here

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/the-real-bnp/images/JohnTyndall_left.jpg

[steve_spackman]

The above pictures are the kind of thing that gives the BNP a VERY bad press. Although i agree with SOME of their views i could not go out and vote for them and give them the keys to #10.

If on the other hand they got shot of the far right wing views, then perhaps things would be different for them

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I wonder if Max Mosley has ever given the BNP a donation :erm:

[BDunnell]

The above pictures are the kind of thing that gives the BNP a VERY bad press. Although i agree with SOME of their views i could not go out and vote for them and give them the keys to #10.

If on the other hand they got shot of the far right wing views, then perhaps things would be different for them

That's a bit like saying that a fish should give up its swimming ability. It would become pointless.

[BDunnell]

I wonder if Max Mosley has ever given the BNP a donation :erm:

He was once arrested for his involvement in a fracas while out electioneering with his father in the early 1960s. Since then, he has tended to keep his personal politics rather more under wraps, unlike other things.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

He was once arrested for his involvement in a fracas while out electioneering with his father in the early 1960s. Since then, he has tended to keep his personal politics rather more under the bed sheets

:eek:

[Mark in Oshawa]

All I know is Max Mosley probably has a very nice Nazi uni somewhere for his kinky side...lol

I don't know what you Brits did to deserve the BNP, but by god I will always remember this the next time you guys in the UK take shots at the Yanks for some of their racist past. Last time I looked, they put a black libreal in the White House. No one can accuse them of not trying on a new idea there eh? I know tho most of the boards Americans didn't vote for Obama..lol..but hey it is a democracy.

[steve_spackman]

but hey it is a democracy.

A republic!

[BDunnell]

All I know is Max Mosley probably has a very nice Nazi uni somewhere for his kinky side...lol

I don't know what you Brits did to deserve the BNP, but by god I will always remember this the next time you guys in the UK take shots at the Yanks for some of their racist past. Last time I looked, they put a black libreal in the White House. No one can accuse them of not trying on a new idea there eh? I know tho most of the boards Americans didn't vote for Obama..lol..but hey it is a democracy.

I don't think anyone reasonable would claim that Britain's past is anything other than shameful in some respects, just like any country's.

[markabilly]

Ever worked for a politician or in politics?

Come to think of it, do you have any evidence for every single politician actually being corrupt?
name one that ain't

as you are an expert who has personal expeirence

[Fred Basset]

Members of the European Parliament.

There is a good possibility that they could have an MP next time round knowing the psyche of the British voters

[Fred Basset]

name one that ain't

as you are an expert who has personal expeirence

I think recent events show the misuse of tax payers money and what accounts to fraud by a couple of them in particular shows that the majority of MP's take what they can get and what they believe they are entitled to right to the limit

[Dave B]

The above pictures are the kind of thing that gives the BNP a VERY bad press.
Yup, bad PR, that's the trouble. Other than a slight image problem they're wonderful people. :s

Gimme a break. They're racists, pure and simple. There's no complexity to them, they're simply thugs in suits who appeal to a certain equally mindless demographic.

Mistrust in the mainstream parties coupled with pathetically low turnout (I'm willing to bet Big Brother has more people voting that the Euro elections) has temporarily given these bigots some power, but I can't see it lasting.

[Cooper_S]

Turn out average in Europe was lowest ever at 43.1%.. and the UK turnout was below even that average with a mere 34.48% and the BNP polled 6.2% of that

So their support is not as great as their sucess suggests... Bit it is still a worry that 6.2% of the 34.38% that did vote could be so stupid.

[BDunnell]

name one that ain't

as you are an expert who has personal expeirence

My old boss, for a start.

[BDunnell]

I think recent events show the misuse of tax payers money and what accounts to fraud by a couple of them in particular shows that the majority of MP's take what they can get and what they believe they are entitled to right to the limit

Majority? And the same could be said for the expenses claims of many, many people.

[BDunnell]

Turn out average in Europe was lowest ever at 43.1%.. and the UK turnout was below even that average with a mere 34.48% and the BNP polled 6.2% of that

While also receiving fewer votes than they did last time.



So their support is not as great as their sucess suggests... Bit it is still a worry that 6.2% of the 34.38% that did vote could be so stupid.

A worry, but no surprise. The 'success' of the BNP in those elections says far more about the people who voted for them than it does about the more general problems afflicting politics and politicians.

[Fred Basset]

Majority? And the same could be said for the expenses claims of many, many people.

Yes the majority... it was there for all to see in the press..

Normal people don't put claims for expenses in for thousands more than what they should.. Lets take the mp's that commited fraud for example.

[BDunnell]

Yes the majority... it was there for all to see in the press..

That is factually wrong. But then we know you read the most appalling paper of them all out of choice, which I find bizarre — I had always assumed that it was only possible to stomach the Daily Mail after a session of waterboarding or similar.



Normal people don't put claims for expenses in for thousands more than what they should..

I think you display a certain naivety about the sort of things that end up on business expenses, particularly in the City, but never mind.

[Hazell B]

Majority? And the same could be said for the expenses claims of many, many people.

You're having a go at Fred simply because he's Fred, again :mark:

Even if it was true, which it isn't on anything like the same scale, so what? We are talking about MP's who pretty much stole from tax payers to pay mortgages that do not exist, house ducks that can't build a bloody nest and make sure donations to charity are repaid in full. We aren't talking about anyone else who's fiddled an extra tenner for mileage.

By your reasoning, MP's shouldn't be in trouble for rape because other people do it :rolleyes:

Anyhow, back on topic.
I'm ashamed to be part of the Yorkshire & Humberside area. My worry is that many of the fools who've voted BNP are doing it to appear cool to their mates the first time they're old enough to vote. It's an act of rebellion against parents and all us old foggies. The voters probably own records by black people, love films with black actors and even have black friends .... but ain't it cool to say "I voted BNP!" in the pub :(

[BDunnell]

You're having a go at Fred simply because he's Fred, again :mark:

No, because of his badly-thought-through views.



Even if it was true, which it isn't on anything like the same scale, so what?

Any figures to back up that assertion?



Even if it was true, which it isn't on anything like the same scale, so what? We are talking about MP's who pretty much stole from tax payers to pay mortgages that do not exist, house ducks that can't build a bloody nest and make sure donations to charity are repaid in full. We aren't talking about anyone else who's fiddled an extra tenner for mileage.

The comparison I'm making is with those who use the company credit card to buy expensive wine, visit lap-dancing clubs with clients — that sort of stuff, not the low-level fiddles.



By your reasoning, MP's shouldn't be in trouble for rape because other people do it :rolleyes:

Not at all. I think the use of the expenses system by some MPs is disgraceful. But I also think the way more than a few people in the world of business use their expenses systems is also disgraceful. We shouldn't forget that MPs are hardly unique in such matters.



I'm ashamed to be part of the Yorkshire & Humberside area. My worry is that many of the fools who've voted BNP are doing it to appear cool to their mates the first time they're old enough to vote. It's an act of rebellion against parents and all us old foggies. The voters probably own records by black people, love films with black actors and even have black friends .... but ain't it cool to say "I voted BNP!" in the pub :(

I think there's probably quite a lot of truth in that.

[Fred Basset]

Hey Dunnell "my badly thought out views"? why just cos you don't agree?

Where do i mention the Dail Mail??

[Tazio]

Slightly off topic but I think this is as good a place to pose this question as any:
If people choose to have a belief that mixing their blood is against their principals.
Then they don't have to. No one is making them.
Ironically I'd be willing to bet that most people can't trace their bloodline back more than 3 or 4 generations.
This is a personal and family issue. These so-called "whites" have given themselves just enough rope to hang themselves.
Furthermore, young people that have come from authoritarian households almost invariably revolt.
Tell an adolescent what they can't do based on blind faith, and it's practically a given that they will do it.
That's Human Nature!

[Daniel]

Slightly off topic but I think this is as good a place to pose this question as any:
If people choose to have a belief that mixing their blood is against their principals.
Then they don't have to. No one is making them.
Ironically I'd be willing to bet that most people can't trace their bloodline back more than 3 or 4 generations.
This is a personal and family issue. These so-called "whites" have given themselves just enough rope to hang themselves.
Furthermore, young people that have come from authoritarian households almost invariably revolt.
Tell an adolescent what they can't do based on blind faith, and it's practically a given that they will do it.
That's Human Nature!
The worst part is that people like this don't think they're racist :mark:

[Tazio]

The worst part is that people like this don't think they're racist :mark: And generally procreate without means, or a rational sense of responsibility to their offspring! :(

[Hazell B]

Any figures to back up that assertion?


Nope. You any to back up what you've said, ie your "boss"?
We're quits there, then ;)




The comparison I'm making is with those who use the company credit card to buy expensive wine, visit lap-dancing clubs with clients — that sort of stuff, not the low-level fiddles.


But so what if they do? It's up to their boss to find them out and CALL THE POLICE! Anyway, they hardly equate to mortgages, house profits and £75 a roll wallpaper that gets ripped off within months.





Not at all. I think the use of the expenses system by some MPs is disgraceful. But I also think the way more than a few people in the world of business use their expenses systems is also disgraceful. We shouldn't forget that MPs are hardly unique in such matters.


Again, so what?
We are talking about politicians, not everyone else.
Just because you do it, why should they? Just because she does it, why should he? Etc, etc. Whoever does it, it's still theft in my eyes.

Every single MP with an area boardering the one where I live has been found out and is repaying a 'mistake' or two. Every single one of them. My own MP had photo ops weekly with local Post Office staff fighting closures, then voted for those closures after saying he would never allow them to go ahead.
The lot of them make me sick these days.

[BDunnell]

Nope. You any to back up what you've said, ie your "boss"?

Er... yes, the simple fact that the majority of MPs are not listed in the Telegraph investigation, and quite a lot of those that were — of all parties, not just the one I support — could be argued to have acted both within the letter and the spirit of the rules.



We are talking about politicians, not everyone else.
Just because you do it, why should they? Just because she does it, why should he? Etc, etc. Whoever does it, it's still theft in my eyes.

I do agree, but hardly any of what came up in the MPs' expenses scandal can be categorised as theft, even without applying a completely technical definition of the word. Stupid, extravagant luxury maybe, but not theft.

And the fact remains that non-London area MPs require accommodation in London in order to be able to attend Parliament, and claiming for running costs is thus entirely legitimate. This is not to justify the worst excesses that have been published (and I would add that not everything that has been published could ever be classed as excessive).



The lot of them make me sick these days.

Ignoring the fact that there is nothing about the actions of many of them that is in any way objectionable, let alone illegal?

I do agree with your frustration about the hypocrisy that some can display, however.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Majority? And the same could be said for the expenses claims of many, many people.

I think there is an element of truth in this. I'm not supporting what the MP's have done, but most people from any background would try to get as much as they could for free if they think they could get away with it.

[Hazell B]

Er... yes, the simple fact that the majority of MPs are not listed in the Telegraph investigation, and quite a lot of those that were — of all parties, not just the one I support — could be argued to have acted both within the letter and the spirit of the rules.

If the rules were so damned good for all concerned (not just those claiming) how come they're altering them now? The rules stank, that's why. Letter and spirit of the rules maybe, but with rules that allow somebody to buy a house then spend MY money on it's upkeep and loan repayments, then keep the profit when it's sold, are bad rules. Why the hell should I pay for them to have extensions when I can't afford anything bigger than a two bedroomed terrace myself?



I do agree, but hardly any of what came up in the MPs' expenses scandal can be categorised as theft, even without applying a completely technical definition of the word. Stupid, extravagant luxury maybe, but not theft.

And the fact remains that non-London area MPs require accommodation in London in order to be able to attend Parliament, and claiming for running costs is thus entirely legitimate. This is not to justify the worst excesses that have been published (and I would add that not everything that has been published could ever be classed as excessive).

Hardly any? How come I have to buy my own food and they can claim for theirs? Again, stinky rules are allowing what I can only consider theft. There is not one other job I can think of that pays for food, heating, fuel, cars, family employment, home loan interest repayments, etc, etc.
As for living in London ..... they can't stay in hotels? They can employ family members who live hundreds of miles away, yet can't do much of their job from home? I'm confused at that double standard. As for the ones with two homes in London, each close enough to the jobs, well if that's not dishonest claiming I have no idea what is. Then they claim for travel .....




Ignoring the fact that there is nothing about the actions of many of them that is in any way objectionable, let alone illegal?

I do agree with your frustration about the hypocrisy that some can display, however.

You once had a right old rant about Fox Hunting, with less than zero knowledge of the persuit. You made factual errors in every line you wrote. In short, you looked a fool in the entire post. Now I honestly think you look more stupid even than that. Nothing objectionable? You're having a laugh.

The entire country (except you, of course) is annoyed at this series of stories. It's objectionable, trust me. Majority, minority, makes no doifference - I just happen to think it's majority.

[BDunnell]

If the rules were so damned good for all concerned (not just those claiming) how come they're altering them now? The rules stank, that's why. Letter and spirit of the rules maybe, but with rules that allow somebody to buy a house then spend MY money on it's upkeep and loan repayments, then keep the profit when it's sold, are bad rules. Why the hell should I pay for them to have extensions when I can't afford anything bigger than a two bedroomed terrace myself?

Large parts of the rules were ridiculous, you are quite right. But I have no objection to public money going towards MPs' accommodation in London if they require it, including reasonable upkeep, because it is a necessary part of doing the job. I feel no resentment towards this.



Hardly any? How come I have to buy my own food and they can claim for theirs? Again, stinky rules are allowing what I can only consider theft. There is not one other job I can think of that pays for food, heating, fuel, cars, family employment, home loan interest repayments, etc, etc.

I don't think MPs should be able to claim for food. I don't think they should be allowed to employ family members either, nor claim for loan repayments or a lot of the things that were revealed. But I say again that your definition of 'theft' bears no scrutiny whatsoever.



As for living in London ..... they can't stay in hotels?

I suppose so, but I don't know how the expense of so doing (ideally within easy distance of the Commons so as to allow the quick attendance of votes) stacks up against that of renting or buying accommodation.



You once had a right old rant about Fox Hunting, with less than zero knowledge of the persuit. You made factual errors in every line you wrote. In short, you looked a fool in the entire post. Now I honestly think you look more stupid even than that. Nothing objectionable? You're having a laugh.

The entire country (except you, of course) is annoyed at this series of stories. It's objectionable, trust me. Majority, minority, makes no doifference - I just happen to think it's majority.

Hazell, with respect (though, admittedly, not a lot) this is something I know about, having worked in Parliament. I was genuinely surprised and disgusted at a substantial number of the claims that have been revealed — others struck me as nothing to get worked up about. Read my contributions to this and other threads on this subject. Have I sought to defend the indefensible? No. Have I said that the system should not be reformed? No, far from it. Do other people agree with me when I say that some of the outrage about the issue has been exaggerated and is unjustified? Yes. So, your assertion that it's the 'entire country' is, as is always the case when anybody makes such a claim, utter nonsense. Don't accuse others of looking stupid and then make a comment like that.

[BDunnell]

I think there is an element of truth in this. I'm not supporting what the MP's have done, but most people from any background would try to get as much as they could for free if they think they could get away with it.

And they do, and are allowed to get away with it. Yet say this, and some terminally unimaginative, witless people believe that you are seeking to justify MPs claiming for duck islands, rocking chairs and dog food.

[Hondo]

This stuff tickles me. Humans are a species, subdivided into races (breeds) largely due to physical differences. Canines are a species, subdivided into breeds (races) largely due to physical differences.

If an anglo man doesn't like a black man because he's black, thats racism. If an anglo man doesn't like a black Labrador, thats choice.

I gather that the hoopla about the BNP stems mainly from their desire for the separation of races and their desire for Britain to be a caucasion majority.

Except for philosophical differences, why is that so different from forcing people of different races to blend and get along with each other?

To some degree, the BNP appear to be more honest in their approach.

The barely concealed insinuations that anyone ignorant enough to vote for the BNP shouldn't be allowed to vote at all are amusing coming from the champions of democracy.

They won the office and deserve their chance. The more spit and bile I see cast their way makes me wonder why so many people should be so frightened by them. If they are as unpopular and inept as described, they will be out by the next election. Or are you afraid their popularity will grow? Maybe they represent a belief many harbour, but few speak about.

[Daniel]

Fiero. Lots of people went along with Hitler and his killing of the jews. The fact that 1 person or a million people agree is neither here nor there.

[Hondo]

Fiero. Lots of people went along with Hitler and his killing of the jews. The fact that 1 person or a million people agree is neither here nor there.


I haven't heard anything about the BNP's party platform calling for the killing of Jews.

In a democracy, or any republic, the fact that 1 person or a million people agree is very here and there.

[Dave B]

To some degree, the BNP appear to be more honest in their approach.

The barely concealed insinuations that anyone ignorant enough to vote for the BNP shouldn't be allowed to vote at all are amusing coming from the champions of democracy.

They won the office and deserve their chance. The more spit and bile I see cast their way makes me wonder why so many people should be so frightened by them. If they are as unpopular and inept as described, they will be out by the next election. Or are you afraid their popularity will grow? Maybe they represent a belief many harbour, but few speak about.

There's some truth in what you say. I've said before: to some extent I respect the BNP's honestly. I personally find their views repugnant, but at least we know their views. Currently in the UK the main opposition to this failing government comes from the Conservatives, who as far as one can tell have no policies whatsoever beyond cutting public spending.

But I don't see the BNP's wins as a triumph for democracy, far from it. With Westminster discredited after the expenses row, many people were so disillusioned with politics as a whole that they simply failed to vote. Susan Boyle was more "popular" than the whole Euro election. It was this low turnout that allowed the protest parties to gain power: witness the massive rise of UKIP (the BNP with a veneer of respectability).

I believe that the BNP are unpopular and inept, and I genuinely believe they'll be out on their ears before long. I'm hoping that their new-found power will reveal them as the fraudulant thugs they really are, and that their flaws will become obvious to everybody.

Democracy is tricky: you've got the respect a legitimate party who was elected in a free and fair vote. But there needs to be urgent work done to ensure that no matter what scandals embroil our politicians, the public still engage in the political process and don't sit idly by while racists and facists are elected by default.

[BDunnell]

I haven't heard anything about the BNP's party platform calling for the killing of Jews.

One of the BNP's two MEPs was a member of the National Front some years ago and advocated exactly that.

[BDunnell]

Democracy is tricky: you've got the respect a legitimate party who was elected in a free and fair vote. But there needs to be urgent work done to ensure that no matter what scandals embroil our politicians, the public still engage in the political process and don't sit idly by while racists and facists are elected by default.

The trouble is that people could still engage in it but do so on the basis of their utter stupidity. Given that utter stupidity seems to be increasingly ever-present, this could be a problem.

[Mark]

I haven't heard anything about the BNP's party platform calling for the killing of Jews.[/quote[

Daniel didn't say they were.



In a democracy, or any republic, the fact that 1 person or a million people agree is very here and there.

And isn't always right by any means.

[BeansBeansBeans]

There's some truth in what you say. I've said before: to some extent I respect the BNP's honestly.

They do tend to keep their more extreme views fairly well hidden.

[Hondo]

One of the BNP's two MEPs was a member of the National Front some years ago and advocated exactly that.


The National Front didn't win the seats. But for the sake of example, I'll accept your statement without documentation. Now you have a BNP member that has advocated "the killing of Jews" but apparently has not done so, stacked against "legitimate" party members that advocated honesty and the payment of taxes that have not done so.

All things considered, I'd go with the one you know you have to keep an eye on.

[Hondo]

I haven't heard anything about the BNP's party platform calling for the killing of Jews.[/quote[

Daniel didn't say they were.



And isn't always right by any means.

No it isn't. Democracies are very dangerous things indeed. The more socialized a government gets, the more danger a democracy presents.

Going with an insinuation that some are too ignorant to be trusted to make wise choices at the polls coupled with popular but impractical policy promises made by candidates will bring a democracy to it's knees in no time.

That is why the Founding Fathers of the USA went with a Representative Republic with an Electorial College instead of a straight democracy. As society evolves, that won't be enough protection either.

[Hondo]

There's some truth in what you say. I've said before: to some extent I respect the BNP's honestly. I personally find their views repugnant, but at least we know their views. Currently in the UK the main opposition to this failing government comes from the Conservatives, who as far as one can tell have no policies whatsoever beyond cutting public spending.

But I don't see the BNP's wins as a triumph for democracy, far from it. With Westminster discredited after the expenses row, many people were so disillusioned with politics as a whole that they simply failed to vote. Susan Boyle was more "popular" than the whole Euro election. It was this low turnout that allowed the protest parties to gain power: witness the massive rise of UKIP (the BNP with a veneer of respectability).

I believe that the BNP are unpopular and inept, and I genuinely believe they'll be out on their ears before long. I'm hoping that their new-found power will reveal them as the fraudulant thugs they really are, and that their flaws will become obvious to everybody.

Democracy is tricky: you've got the respect a legitimate party who was elected in a free and fair vote. But there needs to be urgent work done to ensure that no matter what scandals embroil our politicians, the public still engage in the political process and don't sit idly by while racists and facists are elected by default.


You are correct about democracy requiring constant vigilance and attention from the people it serves. In my life time, every time a party not connected with one of the main two wins an election, the standard excuses start. Low voter turnout, it was raining, it was cold, it was both, people didn't bother to vote because it wasn't a major election, the election was on a weekend, etc. All credit to the British press for being truthful and blaming the turnout on the people's disgust. People change and their opinions change with them as they gain more life experience. I'd venture to guess that most people on here that are over 30 don't see every issue now in the same light they did when they were 16 and mom and dad were paying the bills. Now you know why dad didn't buy that Porsche. By that same token, some people's experiences have led them to feel that maybe the BNP is exactly what is needed now.

I should read more about the BNP, but separation of the races ain't just an anglo thing. It is common and prevalent in all the races. Virtually every country in Europe and Britain has had official policies to make life ifficult for Jews at one time or another.

[Hondo]

I think any party, legally organized as a political party is a legitimate party, whether tree huggers, socialists, or tax dodgers. The BNP is a legitimate party, they just aren't a major brand name. A small fish in a large pond.

[BDunnell]

I think any party, legally organized as a political party is a legitimate party, whether tree huggers, socialists, or tax dodgers.

I agree, and they should be allowed their platform. As a result, they should not be surprised at the level of vehement objection to their policies, and just take it on the chin, rather than going on about conspiracies against them and the lack of freedom of speech. Freedom of speech still very much exists, hence their being allowed to get their views across, and the objections that result from that. But I wouldn't expect this party of inarticulate morons to get any such subtle distinctions.

[Hondo]

I doubt they mind the objections, but the eggs were a bit much.

[BeansBeansBeans]

People shouldn't mistake criticism of the BNP with an attempt to suppress them.

They are entitled to their views, just as I am entitled to brand their members and supporters as bigoted morons.

[Dave B]

Politicians of all parties have been subject to attacks using eggs, flour or manure since time immemorial. That doesn't make it right, but the BNP seem to think they're a special case and feel that they're being denied the right to free speech. As I posted earlier in this thread, they've actually had a massively disproportionate amount of airtime given they've "only" won 2 seats.

[Hondo]

Politicians of all parties have been subject to attacks using eggs, flour or manure since time immemorial. That doesn't make it right, but the BNP seem to think they're a special case and feel that they're being denied the right to free speech. As I posted earlier in this thread, they've actually had a massively disproportionate amount of airtime given they've "only" won 2 seats.

Thats up to the media to decide who gets how much of what. Look at all the stuff the media refused and still refuses to print about Obama.

[Tazio]

The more socialized a government gets, the more danger a democracy presents.



Democracy is tricky: you've got the respect a legitimate party who was elected in a free and fair vote. But there needs to be urgent work done to ensure that no matter what scandals embroil our politicians, the public still engage in the political process and don't sit idly by while racists and fascists are elected by default.


I believe that the more Fascist a government gets the more of a danger it presents to Democracy.
Please take note of certain freely elected leaders in Africa.
Of course it is tricky. These two concepts don't have to be mutually exclusive.
I must also admit that my own country is a good example of how dangerous a democratically elected leadership can be when it becomes “more” fascist.
I present you with George Walker Bush and his “Majordomo’s"

[Hondo]

For my English cousins, because you profess to think so highly of the man, I'm willing to donate the Enlightened True Messiah Mr. B. H. Obama to all of you for your next Prime Minister.

[BDunnell]

For my English cousins, because you profess to think so highly of the man, I'm willing to donate the Enlightened True Messiah Mr. B. H. Obama to all of you for your next Prime Minister.

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that because we don't consider him to be a dangerous ignoramus like his predecessor, we must believe him to be faultless. This is rubbish.

[Hondo]

Because a man's views differs from your own, does not an ignoramus make. A man that doesn't know what he's doing can be just as dangerous as a man that knows what he's doing.