difference between a loser and a champion

[race_director]

This i was lewis said today in turkey

"When the team gives me a car to win, I will win. Now we look ahead to Silverstone - I really wish Jenson all the best, he did a fantastic job today. Personally, I hope I can come away from my home race with a great feeling from my home fans - I hope they won't give up supporting me."


This is what Schumi said in 2005 when in same situation

“It was not the outcome we were looking for. We have to work even harder to bridge the gap before the end of the season. We would like to score a win before the championship ends.”

In the end we know who the real champion is. I would love to see a driver who takes the responsibility to make his team a champion by his hard work and dedication , rather than a driver who wants his team to make him a champion.

[yodasarmpit]

I wouldn't say the difference between a loser and a champion, but he's certainly not coming across as a team player.

Given a winning car he did just that, win. I expect that in the future he has the talent to do it again.
On a personal note I have lost all respect for him, but I still acknowledge that he is a driving talent.

[Valve Bounce]

Ross Brown, as the Spaniards call him. :p :

[markabilly]

I think he wanted to blame Patrick Ryan for the problems... :confused: ....but he already threw him under the bus in "lewie the liargate".... :rolleyes:

.So I guess he could blame Ron Dennis.....opps already threw him under the bus, too..... :rolleyes:

I wonder why he might be worried that "they won't give up supporting him", :confused:

perhaps he is worried they might do to him like what Lewis did to his own team?????
:eek:

[N. Jones]

Is this just exposing that Lewis is either not very good at or is not involved in setting up the car?
If so, does this mean that the rumor of Lewis copying Alonso's setup in 2007 is true?

[Bobby_Hamlin]

Apples and oranges. In 2005 it was mostly about Bridgestone tires - and despite that Ferrari still managed 3rd in the constructors' championship and Schumacher 3rd in the drivers' championship; hardly what McLaren experienced yesterday.

In addition Schumacher in 2005 was 36 years old and was coming off a run of 5 straight world championship wins with Ferrari - a situation where it's not actually all that impressive to give your team some slack.

Still, why let that get in the way of specious comparisons...

[I am evil Homer]

Oh what a surpirse to see a thread started by this guy bashing Lewis....we get it just move on. He's ayoung guy, world champion and he's got one of the worst cars McLaren has ever produced -i;d cut him some slack.

[Valve Bounce]

Is this just exposing that Lewis is either not very good at or is not involved in setting up the car?
If so, does this mean that the rumor of Lewis copying Alonso's setup in 2007 is true?

Actually, they were copying Ferrari's setup via internet e-mails which were coughed up later in the copygate affair.

[I am evil Homer]

Testing ban is hurting them...before this season they probably could have turned it around but now with a fundamentally flawed design it's not going to happen. Set up only gets you so far with there's massive aero issues.

[christophulus]

2005? When Schumacher had been in F1 for 12 years and won seven titles already? No wonder he sounds like a champion is it?

I've not been impressed with Hamilton this year, but I've seen signs he might be calming down and accepting his situation so I'm sure he'll return to the front next year. And what he said is true, there is no way he'll win anything in that car - but once the engineers improve it he'll be right up the front again.

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe if we looked at it more closely, Lewis has a better car this year than bunsen had last year.

[I am evil Homer]

2005? When Schumacher had been in F1 for 12 years and won seven titles already? No wonder he sounds like a champion is it?

I've not been impressed with Hamilton this year, but I've seen signs he might be calming down and accepting his situation so I'm sure he'll return to the front next year. And what he said is true, there is no way he'll win anything in that car - but once the engineers improve it he'll be right up the front again.

Strangely there's been some races where he's impressed me this season...Monaco was a massive mistake but one he owned up to. Silverstone could be interesting - he likes the circuit but it won't suit the car!

I looked at the title of the thread and thought it was about the difference between Button and Barrichello.

[Mark]

Maybe if we looked at it more closely, Lewis has a better car this year than bunsen had last year.

That's certainly true! Buttons car last year couldn't have been much worse. But then, the lack of attention paid in 2008 is paying off big time now!

[race_director]

I looked at the title of the thread and thought it was about the difference between Button and Barrichello.

Button a champion stuff ????? :)

[woody2goody]

This is a stupid thread and I'm surprised anyone's really giving it any credibility.

This guy just has a constant dislike for Hamilton, and so of course his thread is going to be about how someone else is much better.

[ioan]

I wouldn't call Hamilton a loser, he's a fine driver but a less than brilliant team player.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I wouldn't call Hamilton a loser, he's a fine driver but a less than brilliant team player.

:eek:

You said something positive about Lewis Hamilton! Who stole your password? :p

Next you'll be saying that Button is a fairly quick driver.

[ioan]

:eek:

You said something positive about Lewis Hamilton! Who stole your password? :p

Next you'll be saying that Button is a fairly quick driver.

They are all fairly quick drivers. :D

[race_director]

This is a stupid thread and I'm surprised anyone's really giving it any credibility.

This guy just has a constant dislike for Hamilton, and so of course his thread is going to be about how someone else is much better.

I think i should ask you every time before i post something. maayaaooo

[N. Jones]

Actually, they were copying Ferrari's setup via internet e-mails which were coughed up later in the copygate affair.

:) True, but that doesn't answer my question about Lewis....

[MrJan]

Was Schumacher's car in '05 really as bad as the McLaren is this season? I'm not sure it was.

[Hawkmoon]

Was Schumacher's car in '05 really as bad as the McLaren is this season? I'm not sure it was.

I don't think that's the issue. The issue for the thread starter was how Schumacher and Hamilton compare in regards to comments made about a relative lack of performance, not about the performance itself. The '05 Ferrari wasn't a great car but it was much better than the '09 McLaren.

Schumacher's comments indicated he wasn't happy with the car and was working with the team to get it sorted. Hamilton's comments seem to indicate that he's waiting for the team to fix the problem. A "it's not my job" attitute, if you like.

I wouldn't read too much into Hamilton's comments in this regard. He's still young and only experiencing a bad F1 car for the first time.

[woody2goody]

I think i should ask you every time before i post something. maayaaooo

What you can do is rearrange the sentence:

I think you should think every time before you post something.

Hamilton is actually a champion unless you forgot ;)

[wmcot]

I think you should think every time before you post something.


That would eliminate 99% of the posts! ;)

[MrJan]

I don't think that's the issue. The issue for the thread starter was how Schumacher and Hamilton compare in regards to comments made about a relative lack of performance, not about the performance itself. The '05 Ferrari wasn't a great car but it was much better than the '09 McLaren.

Schumacher's comments indicated he wasn't happy with the car and was working with the team to get it sorted. Hamilton's comments seem to indicate that he's waiting for the team to fix the problem. A "it's not my job" attitute, if you like.

I wouldn't read too much into Hamilton's comments in this regard. He's still young and only experiencing a bad F1 car for the first time.

But if MS had a car which was as bad as that McLaren then would he have been so gracious? LH has experienced a fairly severe drop off from the last 2 years and it has to be infuriating.

Also I do believe that Lewis is driving that car pretty well considering how poor it is, there doesn't seem to be much more that he can get out of it and therefore it is up to the team :)

[ShiftingGears]

But if MS had a car which was as bad as that McLaren then would he have been so gracious?

Yes.

[jens]

:eek:

You said something positive about Lewis Hamilton! Who stole your password? :p

Next you'll be saying that Button is a fairly quick driver.

Ioan has already mentioned Button as DOTD a few times this year, so... ;)

[markabilly]

Well what a pathetic subject for a thread IMO :confused:

Lewis was just making the best of a bad situation and to be honest a win this season is not looking remotely likely. How many time does this chap have to thank his team before certain people consider him a team player?

.... :(
Speaking of pathetic....
The real question is how many times can this chap screw over his team and rat them out, before certain people STOP considering him as a team player??

[markabilly]

or as they say, the first step on the road to recovery, is to admit the truth: Lewis is a liar, a back stabber, who even screwed his own godfather to get ahead or to save his own buttocks, tossed Ryan....

Repeat it every morning for a year and quit drinking koolaid

Beside once a rat always a rat...they do not change........

Of course you failed to answer the question: The real question is how many times can this chap screw over his team and rat them out, before certain people STOP considering him as a team player??

[markabilly]

still waiting on the answer.................

[markabilly]

I've never seen any conclusive proof that he ratted his team out in the first place?? Maybe you could provide me with this information and I can make a decision?

Other than that, this is old forum propaganda which is designed to preach hate based on opinions rather than fact..........
let us see there was Monaco his first year, there was Hungary his first year (all based on words from his own piehole) and then there was this year.....I did not lie, they made me do it.....I am gonna quit F1......what RD gone, oh really maybe in a few days I will call him.....

no wonder he is worried about whether his team will continue to support him

So you still ain't answered the question....

[Mark]

Of course back in the day Schumacher had the opportunity to help the team progress by getting stuck into testing. We don't have testing any more!

[Sleeper]

or as they say, the first step on the road to recovery, is to admit the truth: Lewis is a liar, a back stabber, who even screwed his own godfather to get ahead or to save his own buttocks, tossed Ryan....

Repeat it every morning for a year and quit drinking koolaid

Beside once a rat always a rat...they do not change........

Of course you failed to answer the question: The real question is how many times can this chap screw over his team and rat them out, before certain people STOP considering him as a team player??
You make it sound like Ryan was innocent. Are you forgetting that itwas his idea in the first place to lie to the stewards?

But if MS had a car which was as bad as that McLaren then would he have been so gracious?

Ladies and gentlemen....I give you...the 1996 F310 Ferrari.

Don't recall the youngest double world champion saying anything ungracious at the time, and that was certainly a car less than commesurate for a champion.

[rabf1]

The reality is that it is pretty much all about the car now.

There are a number of drivers in F1 who are good enough to win if they are given a winning car. Lewis had a good car and he won (barely). Button finally got a good car and he is dominating.

[woody2goody]

Ok, the 1996 Ferrari wasn't a great car, but it was still top 5 in the hands of Schumacher. The 2009 McLaren is finishing 13th and 14th on pure pace with a world champion at the wheel of one of them. I don't think there is a comparison to be made.

And as for Hamilton 'ratting out' his team, surely they shouldn't have tried to deceive the authorities in the first place, so it's their own fault of they were found out.

[Lemmy-Boy]

Poor Lew! The UK's glory boy is taking a beating this year. Give the kid a chance, he' young and has a lot to learn.

It's not only him that's sucking exhaust. The testing ban has hurt most of our top team & contenders from last year (Massa, Kubica, etc).

[race_director]

i actually do not care now days , inspite of the fact that chris goodwin, steve slater and alex young going bla bla about hamilton on star network ( they have to since the biggest sponser of the f1 broadcast is MOBILE 1),

for me hamilton is just a soar loser and has no talent . he is jenson in reverse gear. Jenson spent 8 years with back marker's, now we gonna see Daddy boy with back marker's

by the ways i do not see hamilton getting anything extra in MClaren after RON has left. infact i see the team going towards KOVI now days, wonder why KOVI is able to go into Q2 , while HAMI boy is stuck with his dad in the pit garage ?

[markabilly]

And as for Hamilton 'ratting out' his team, surely they shouldn't have tried to deceive the authorities in the first place, so it's their own fault of they were found out.
you mean if hamilton had not lied in the first place, he would not have ratted them out, so it is their fault that they did not figure out he was lying and rat him out first?

anywaythe question remains

The real question is how many times can this chap screw over his team and rat them out, before certain people STOP considering him as a team player??


:confused:

[scaliwag]

You seem so convinced he has ratted his team out on 3 separate occassions, why don't you ask the team directly?? Here's a contact:

http://www.mclaren.com/contact/contact.php

I'm sure you will get your answers there, and they may be able to remove that chip on your shoulder in their state of the art physiotherapy clinic.

Not much point, they don't do truth.

[Daniel]

I think the OP makes a valid point which seems to get lost beneath all the whiney crybabies complaining that someone is being negative about Lewis.

Mark makes a good point about there not being testing but to a certain extent you just need to STFU, get on with your job and stop doing things to distance himself from the team. There's only so long you can say "he's young and inexperienced" as an excuse for his sometimes questionable actions.

[Daniel]

So what have we learnt from this thread? Its apparent theres a huge difference between the 2 champions.... 14 seasons, 6 world championships and 2 different era's..


Not really much more to say.....

What a load of tosh. You and I probably grew up in different countries with very different backgrounds but that's still no excuse for either of us behaving in a way that is unacceptable or that adversely affects the team that we were a part of if we were in F1.

[CaptainRaiden]

So what have we learnt from this thread?

To ignore pointless flame baits in the future. ;)

[Tazio]

Poor Lew! The UK's glory boy is taking a beating this year. Give the kid a chance, he' young and has a lot to learn.

It's not only him that's sucking exhaust. The testing ban has hurt most of our top team & contenders from last year (Massa, Kubica, etc).
Karma is a bitch. :)

It is as sure as you are Roderigo,
Were I the Moor, I would not be Iago.
In following him, I follow but myself;
Heaven is my judge, not I for love and duty,
But seeming so, for my peculiar end;
For when my outward action doth demonstrate
The native act and figure of my heart
In complement extern, 'tis not long after
But I will wear my heart upon my sleeve
For daws to peck at. I am not what I am. :dozey:

Othello Act 1, scene 1, 56–65

[DexDexter]

I don't think that's the issue. The issue for the thread starter was how Schumacher and Hamilton compare in regards to comments made about a relative lack of performance, not about the performance itself. The '05 Ferrari wasn't a great car but it was much better than the '09 McLaren.

Schumacher's comments indicated he wasn't happy with the car and was working with the team to get it sorted. Hamilton's comments seem to indicate that he's waiting for the team to fix the problem. A "it's not my job" attitute, if you like.

I wouldn't read too much into Hamilton's comments in this regard. He's still young and only experiencing a bad F1 car for the first time.

Sure Hamilton is waiting for the team to fix the problem because there isn't really anything he can do since testing is banned. Friday free practices are too short for evaluation purposes IMO.

[MrJan]

i actually do not care now days , inspite of the fact that chris goodwin, steve slater and alex young going bla bla about hamilton on star network ( they have to since the biggest sponser of the f1 broadcast is MOBILE 1),

for me hamilton is just a soar loser and has no talent . he is jenson in reverse gear. Jenson spent 8 years with back marker's, now we gonna see Daddy boy with back marker's

by the ways i do not see hamilton getting anything extra in MClaren after RON has left. infact i see the team going towards KOVI now days, wonder why KOVI is able to go into Q2 , while HAMI boy is stuck with his dad in the pit garage ?


There's a lot of anger there mate, you need to relax or you'll have a heart attack.

I have to now refer you to the same thing I always do when people say that Hamilton has no talent. Look on Youtube for his performance in the Turkish GP2 race when he finished second, and remember that the cars he overtakes are identical.

Oh and I think that the commentators might talk about Lewis because he happens to be the youngest ever WDC who is currently having a terrible season, forgive me for thinking that people might want to talk about that.

Back OT - As people have mentioned testing is banned, beyond the rather limited time during a race weekend (when he will be learning the track etc.) there isn't a great deal which Hamilton can do to get that car going quickly.

[Daniel]

Back OT - As people have mentioned testing is banned, beyond the rather limited time during a race weekend (when he will be learning the track etc.) there isn't a great deal which Hamilton can do to get that car going quickly.

THat's not the point though! Hamiltons performance is actually not that bad considering the car but it's just his attitude that stinks.

[markabilly]

Karma is a bitch. :)

It is as sure as you are Roderigo,
Were I the Moor, I would not be Iago.
In following him, I follow but myself;
Heaven is my judge, not I for love and duty,
But seeming so, for my peculiar end;
For when my outward action doth demonstrate
The native act and figure of my heart
In complement extern, 'tis not long after
But I will wear my heart upon my sleeve
For daws to peck at. I am not what I am. :dozey:

Othello Act 1, scene 1, 56–65
well, may be ole Shake a spear
could use some help from his close "friend"and get some insight as whether he am not or what for his peculiar end, with heart upon sleeve


Well helloo Lewiebabyhttp://forceindiaf1.com/images/adrian_image.jpg

[MrJan]

THat's not the point though! Hamiltons performance is actually not that bad considering the car but it's just his attitude that stinks.

My point being that I can understand the attitude because there is nothing that he can do to make the crap car he's been given a race winner. He's got this bag of crap which he's driving the wheels off and I think is perfectly justified to have the odd pop at the team.

[ShiftingGears]

My point being that I can understand the attitude because there is nothing that he can do to make the crap car he's been given a race winner. He's got this bag of crap which he's driving the wheels off and I think is perfectly justified to have the odd pop at the team.

Why? Won't make him go any faster.

[Ranger]

He's got this bag of crap which he's driving the wheels off and I think is perfectly justified to have the odd pop at the team.
I disagree with that opinion 100%.

300+ employees work 15+ hour days, 7 days a week, all but 1-10 days a year in order to research, develop and build that car for the sole purpose of improving it.

Many of those employees struggle to maintain their own family and relationship stability given these hours plus race and test weekends (this has happened to at least one former F1 engineer on this forum).

Do you still think a occasional dig is 'perfectly justified'?

Lewis is paid tens of millions per year for a lot less actual work, at least he could motivate the team instead of slagging their best efforts.

[MrJan]

I disagree with that opinion 100%.

300+ employees work 15+ hour days, 7 days a week, all but 1-10 days a year in order to research, develop and build that car for the sole purpose of improving it.

No, many of them are doing accounts, making componants and drumming up sponsorship. The blokes who actually do the work to improve the car are a much smaller group and who will earn a fairly serious sum of money themselves.

And I hardly call risking your life 'less actual work'.

I agree that Lewis' was a bit flippant and again hasn't thought something through but I don't believe that anybody would accept the kind of fall from grace he has experienced and not speak out.

[nigelred5]

It's a team sport and effort, and there is constantly a "me and them" content and tone to his comments on the pace of this year's McLaren. One could construe his comments as being blunt, but It's a little more than that. Schumacher was truly a leader, good or bad. Lewis has yet to show me that quality. 14 years or 3 years, a true champion always shows leadership for his team.
Like it or not, the drivers are the primary focal point of any criticism of the team and they should act and speak accordingly. They were all his boys when he was winning, he needs to learn to say as much when he's not.

Incredible talent aside, he's been immensely spoiled throughout his racing career and it shows when the chips are down.

[555-04Q2]

No, many of them are doing accounts, making componants and drumming up sponsorship. The blokes who actually do the work to improve the car are a much smaller group and who will earn a fairly serious sum of money themselves.

And I hardly call risking your life 'less actual work'.

I agree that Lewis' was a bit flippant and again hasn't thought something through but I don't believe that anybody would accept the kind of fall from grace he has experienced and not speak out.

I disagree. I wouldnt work for the money that the F1 mechanics work for. Their long hours negate the so called "good salaries" they get paid. I'm willing to bet that their earnings per hour worked is not much higher than that good motor mechanics who work regular 9 to 5 jobs. You also have to take into account that they are away from home most of the year and personally, I know how that affects a family negatively, especially children. The team bosses and managers are the ones that get paid decent money.

[Dave B]

THat's not the point though! Hamiltons performance is actually not that bad considering the car but it's just his attitude that stinks.


It's a team sport and effort, and there is constantly a "me and them" content and tone to his comments on the pace of this year's McLaren. One could construe his comments as being blunt, but It's a little more than that. Schumacher was truly a leader, good or bad. Lewis has yet to show me that quality. 14 years or 3 years, a true champion always shows leadership for his team.
Like it or not, the drivers are the primary focal point of any criticism of the team and they should act and speak accordingly. They were all his boys when he was winning, he needs to learn to say as much when he's not.


Two months ago I'd have agreed with both of you. Hamilton was clearly shocked at how poor the 2009 McLaren was, and perhaps felt that he was entitled to better. He barely spoke to the press, giving monosyllabic answers when he bothered giving any answers at all. He condemned the car as hopeless, and looked thoroughly fed up. His own actions in the stewards' room in Australia only compounded his misery.

Fast-forward to the most recent races and it's obvious that he's come to terms with the poor pace of the car and is determined to make the best of it while at the same time spurring the team on. Look at the post-race interview he gave the BBC in Turkey. He looked directly into the camera lens and delivered a fillip to the guys back at the factory, imploring them not to give up hope.

This season could be the making of the man. He's accustomed to having the world handed to him on a plate, and Ron in the background to ensure everything runs smoothly. This year he has to deal not only with a poor car; but also the inevitable backlash, seeing his countryman steal all the limelight, the responsibilities of being Champion, a new boss and a (slowly) improving team mate.

Having to knuckle down and take his turn at being one of the "monkeys at the back" (his words, not mine) could be the best thing that's ever happened to him, and I predict he'll emerge stronger than ever.

Given a halfway decent car in 2010, he could well be unstoppable.

Yes, but he doesn't mention anything about the team giving him a bad car, as Hamilton has.

“When you start out in a team, you have to get the teamwork going and then you get something back.”

That's one of Michael's quotes too, from the same link.

Oh, and so is....

"The fact is we were too slow here and we did not look too competitive."

Note the "we", eh, Lewis?

[race_director]

KOVI is now days doing well compared to lewis, is there a shift in the team. and now talks of breakaway series going. i wonder who will be driving the the other car in the breakaway series ????


HIS DADDY ? :) :) :) :)

[BDunnell]

Personally, I don't really care about any of this. Let's not mark F1 drivers out as being anything other than people doing a job. We all have a bad attitude towards our work colleagues at times, I'm sure. Sometimes it's justified, sometimes it isn't. So what?

[woody2goody]

Yes, but he doesn't mention anything about the team giving him a bad car, as Hamilton has.

“When you start out in a team, you have to get the teamwork going and then you get something back.”

That's one of Michael's quotes too, from the same link.

You can say that, but the truth is that the team HAVE given him a bad car. People are criticising a guy for telling the truth now? Bloody hell.

The BMW drivers have also complained about their car this year, and I don't think Kimi's attitude early in the season paints a picture of being a good team player.

Yes, Hamilton was snappy and uncooperative earlier in the year, but his expectation was the championship and victories. Now, he's appreciating good performances from the team, himself and he's enjoying the races. This is because he's lowered his expectations and is now racing for points if possible.

And Schumacher's attitude wasn't always particularly good, but I'd say Schumi was bad in the middle of a challenge, a fight. When he was a way infront or a way behind, he was professional most of the time.

But Schumacher was capable of 3rd in the championship in 05, performing reasonably well. Hamilton is driving really well this year, but there's no way 3rd, or dare I say the top 8 in the championship is in reach for him this year.

He won't beat all the drivers from Brawn, RBR, Ferrari and Toyota this year, and he'll struggle to beat Rosberg and Nakajima too.

[Tazio]

Personally, I don't really care about any of this. Let's not mark F1 drivers out as being anything other than people doing a job. We all have a bad attitude towards our work colleagues at times, I'm sure. Sometimes it's justified, sometimes it isn't. So what?I agree with this! And I find it ridiculous when people reference something another driver did similarly nine years ago.
I really started to warm to Lewis. His talent is obvious.
However it is perfectly acceptable imho for Lewis to take heat for liegate within the season it occurred.
It's called penance in my book, because the points lost don’t amount to squat on a squat-stick in terms of the penalty fitting.
Humiliation for this transgression, this year, is just, and will serve as a future deterent!

[SGWilko]

Ladies and gentlemen....I give you...the 1996 F310 Ferrari.

Don't recall the youngest double world champion saying anything ungracious at the time, and that was certainly a car less than commesurate for a champion.

Well, Ferrari chew up and spit out WDC's who bad mouth their cars - see Prost and the Truck that the Scuderia gave him to drive.....

So MS clearly was just using his brain and keeping schtum.....

[555-04Q2]

I think you've pretty much summed it up there, and Tazio is right also. Lewis is under criticism for admitting his car is a pile of pants and unlike Kubica, Raikkonen, Massa, and Alonso who have all done the same, he is getting the negative attention due to liegate. Thats fair enough I suppose, he was very stupid in what he did, and has to expect people not to let it go for this season. The main thing is he is showing that he has talent and is doing very well under the circumstances.

I like Hamilton but he tends to say the wrong things when he opens his mouth. Remember the "monkeys at the back of the grid" reference he made? There are others too.

He is a young man still and has a lot to learn about diplomacy, he will improve over time.

[markabilly]

Oh, and so is....

"The fact is we were too slow here and we did not look too competitive."

Note the "we", eh, Lewis?


It is like this: I won, I drove better, I got the pole, i got bigger balls but it is WE lost, We were slow, we.......unless it is really serious bad, then it is "they" as in "they" made me lie....

:rolleyes: