2009 rules and their failure to produce better racing

[ioan]

We got another rather boring race today with no real fight for the top position once they all got through the first lap.

I was thinking that we didn't have such a dull season since 2004, with 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008 keeping us on the edge of the seat until the end this season we may all just take a break from F1 2/3rds into the championship.

IMO this is mostly due to the development restrictions in place in the very first year after big technical rule changes.

It's obvious that if someone got it right straight away the others don't really have the possibility to catch up anymore under the new regulations regarding testing, wind tunnel usage and CFD usage.

What's your opinion?

[BDunnell]

I must confess that I would find Button winning the world championship very satisfactory, but, as stated in another thread, I wish somebody would put up a fight. I'm certain that the element of novelty of having Brawn and Button on top (full credit to them, naturally) while McLaren and others languish at the back is preventing quite a lot of people from coming to the realisation that the racing has generally not been of the highest standard. Nor am I a great fan of KERS as a means of generating overtaking. But I'm still enjoying it, and there is something about the cars that looks a bit more 'racy' than their predecessors. I find it hard to put my finger on it.

[71minus2]

i agree the racing isnt as it was advertised as being, ie more overtaking and closer racing. The main problem, as i see it, is that the reduction in downforce has been overcome and the cars can not follow each other as close as was hoped. This is due to the rear diffuser and something which i would like the FIA to look into again.

Secondly, KERS is useless and having a couple of cars runnig with it hardly makes for an improved race! Make it compulsory or ban it completely.

On a positive note, its good to have different teams up front. Ferrari are getting there too and i would expect them to have a couple of wins before the end of the season.

[woody2goody]

I don't agree with this opinion to be honest.

There has been a lot of overtaking this year which wouldn't have been possible last year. The racing is close, but when all said and done, we are talking about a GP distance and the cars aren't going to be close all the time.

Rubens did some passing (and some crashing), Piquet passed Hamilton, Glock must have passed some people to get to 8th, I think everyone's making too much of it tbh.

The regs have clearly worked, as I don't think you would have seen anyone follow closely through turn 8 in 2008.

[christophulus]

It's a start but I'm more optimistic about next year (provided F1 is still around then...)

No refuelling, so the fastest car will be on pole. Drivers will have to pass on the track. Saving tyres will be all important and I think we'll see some moves late on in the race when some drivers have ruined their tyres early on.

The regulation changes have had a limited effect but they've only decreased the distance at which a car hits the dirty air of the car infront. The turbulence off the cars needs to be eliminated as much as is practical, only then will we get some real overtaking moves!

[truefan72]

As I recall I started a thread a while back foretelling this predicament

2009 shades of 2004
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133124

I was pretty much mocked for my opinion and labeled sour grapes due to me liking LH and mclaren.

As I said then and as I say now, my dissatisfaction with the 2009 season has little to do with the struggling macs and all to do with the whole reason why the regs and cars were so dramatically changed for 2009.

We were promised the following
1- less areo turbulence for following cars
2- more overtaking
3- more parity across the board
4- more clarity and simplified technical rules
5- a more standardized vehicle
6- closer races and a better WDC/WCC

FIA has failed on every one of these points

never mind that Bernie was pushing the stupid medals system as an obvious knee jerk reaction to Hamilton winning the WDC last year. (Which IMO showed more disrespect towards LH magnificent season and 2 years of thrilling down-to-the-wire championships)

and now we are left with this fine season.
and lets not forget that Brawn GP car, while deemed legal was still a mojor source of controversy, so much so that other teams were forced to spend millions redesigning their entire cars. Another gift from the FIA and their "cost cutting" trend; laughable

anyway 2009 is done and a strong possibility of either a two tiered championship for 2010 or 7-8 of the current teams not participating with budget style gp2 and F3 teams scurrying around to enter Max Mosley's dream (...nightmare) of F1.

both he and Bernie will go down as the fools who destroyed F1

[wedge]

When its dull it can be drowsy but when there's action there's been some top stuff.

I think its early for firm conclusions. Brundle thinks the new cars have made a slight difference to the wake and others still differ.

Credit to Button for the perfect performance but his nearest rivals are hurting the showing with effing up one way or another.

[yodasarmpit]

I have to agree, the loss of in season testing will hurt anyone who didn't produce the goods over the winter.
This is clearly evident with the plight of McLaren and Ferrari, however Ferrari at least appear to be dealing with things a little (quite a bit) better.

As for overtaking, we clearly saw Vettel in a faster lighter car get stuck behind Button, so the regs certainly haven't produced what was promised. Or possibly that was down to the double decker diffuser.

[K-Pu]

And imagine Button winning EVERYTHING this season... Yes, he´d be great, da man and everything but... a dull season indeed. And with the new regs you can´t improve your car fast enough (or if you prefer, this season) in order to fight for something.

The problem with this season is that it´s getting a bit boring, and we have also planty of political problems to keep things apart from the track. At least today we haven´t seen too much racong...

[call_me_andrew]

I thought the race was better than average today. Remember when Vettel was catching Button before the last pit stop?

[gloomyDAY]

I have to agree with truefan72!

2009 is a failure for the following reasons:

1) KERS - A system which completely managed to compromise cost-cutting measures. The whole thing is a sham and an embarrassment to F1. This year was supposed to showcase the drives' talent, but what we have seen is the complete opposite. KERS cars have just made F1 more artificial. I've never enjoyed watching an inferior car scuttle the chances of another driver.

2) Double Decker Diffusers - What happened to lowering the amount of downforce so the cars can follow one another? The rules misguided 7 teams on the grid and now they're playing catch-up, which is not only unfair, but unjust. I hate the fact that cars hit that wall of turbulence and turns into another procession.

3) Lack of Testing - Grand prix weekends have now turned into test sessions. Seems silly that teams can't make adjustments to make for more exciting racing.

[DexDexter]

Why do you think regulations are at fault if there is no good racing at the moment? Other than testing restrictions, I don't get it. Even if you took all the wings, diffusers away so that cars would be able to overtake each other at any corner, it wouldn't make any difference. The Brawn of Barrichello would have passed every car in Turkey and then the snoozefest would have continued. The problem is not the regulations themselves, it's Brawn. In the past it was Mclaren 1988 etc., Williams 1992.... Ferrari with Schumi etc. When somebody has a superior car, the regulations are not going to help. It doesn't matter if you can follow somebody bit closer if the fastest car starts on pole and disappears into the distance from there.

[F1boat]

Honestly sometimes it is good to see a dominant winner like Mansell and Michael, even better of you support the guy. I am enjoying the season tremendously and will love to see Jenson winning the championship convincingly.

[Mark]

I think the racing has been good, but, I'm still tending to record the race and ffwd through the part between the final stops and the end of the race!

[I am evil Homer]

We got another rather boring race today with no real fight for the top position once they all got through the first lap.

I was thinking that we didn't have such a dull season since 2004, with 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008 keeping us on the edge of the seat until the end this season we may all just take a break from F1 2/3rds into the championship.

IMO this is mostly due to the development restrictions in place in the very first year after big technical rule changes.

It's obvious that if someone got it right straight away the others don't really have the possibility to catch up anymore under the new regulations regarding testing, wind tunnel usage and CFD usage.

What's your opinion?

I'd largely agree with this - the last few seasons have ended up being pretty exciting and this season despite all the rule changes it's starting to become very predictable much like the MS/Ferrari days - all that's changed is there's two different teams up the front.

The biggest problem is the testing ban as you have no chance of catching up as you say, so that Friday becomes a glorified test. I'm not a massive Hamilton fan but to see the world champion and someone with so much talent at the back of a field in a dog of a car that looks like it's doing its best to fire both drivers into the barriers and with no chance of it moving forward is not good for F1.

[Mark]

However, nobody expects Brawn to be at the front in 2010 too. They are winning this year because they were very smart in building their new car and thought of things the other teams did not.

The big teams will not allow this to continue into 2010.

[ShiftingGears]

DDD's.

[Tazio]

What's your opinion?

Hell has indeed frozen over :mark:

[ioan]

DDD's.

This is where the FIA might have shot their rule changes dead.

[555-04Q2]

I agree with ioan. After lap 9 I switched over to Supersport 2 and watched the South Africa vs Scotland 20/20 cricket match. It was far more entertaining than the F1. Watched the F1 highlights package later in the evening.

[Garry Walker]

There will never be lots of overtaking in F1, because usually faster cars are in front and slower cars are at the back after qualifying. So what do you want? Force India car to pressure Red Bull car into a mistake?

If you want 10000 overtakes per lap, watch nascar. F1 is simply not that kind of series and never will be.

[MrJan]

I'm fairly sure that we have seen more on track racing than we did in recent years. Okay so it's not a one-make excite-a-thon but there has been some degree of improvement. Last season we would maybe be lucky to see one or 2 moves per race and rarely a battle. Now we see more passing and times when a fast non-KERS car can actually dice with a KERS car, like we saw yesterday with Rubens/Heikki :)

[BeansBeansBeans]

There will never be lots of overtaking in F1, because usually faster cars are in front and slower cars are at the back after qualifying. So what do you want? Force India car to pressure Red Bull car into a mistake?

If you want 10000 overtakes per lap, watch nascar. F1 is simply not that kind of series and never will be.

I agree 100% :up:

A lot of people tend to over-react everytime we have a dull GP. People tend to forget that there have always been dull GPs and always will be.

[ioan]

There will never be lots of overtaking in F1, because usually faster cars are in front and slower cars are at the back after qualifying. So what do you want? Force India car to pressure Red Bull car into a mistake?

If you want 10000 overtakes per lap, watch nascar. F1 is simply not that kind of series and never will be.

The point of the thread is that with the current restrictions for track testing, Wind tunnel testing and CFD usage, it's impossible to catch up a runaway team before it's to late and they gave up improving their car.

Let's face it, the championship is over and if Bernie want's to have spectators after the 10th or 11th round he'll have to beg Brawn to let others come close to Jenson every now and then.

[ioan]

I agree 100% :up:

A lot of people tend to over-react every time we have a dull GP. People tend to forget that there have always been dull GPs and always will be.

The problem is that we got plenty of technical and sporting rule changes that turned out to produce exactly the opposite. or do you think that the racing is better than it was in the last 4 seasons?!

I don't care to much about passing, and I don't care if Brawn wins by a country mile this season (which will certainly happen), I question the rule changes that were made!

[stevie_gerrard]

The fact is that the early development of the Brawn car has given them a head start and when you get that, its hard for other teams to catch up. They are getting better, but Brawn are so far ahead in terms of reliability that it's hard to see anything other than a Brawn win. I just wish Rubens would start winning a few to bring some excitement to the title race this season.

[wedge]

The point of the thread is that with the current restrictions for track testing, Wind tunnel testing and CFD usage, it's impossible to catch up a runaway team before it's to late and they gave up improving their car.

Let's face it, the championship is over and if Bernie want's to have spectators after the 10th or 11th round he'll have to beg Brawn to let others come close to Jenson every now and then.

Ferrari are catching up if you hadn't noticed.

[ioan]

Ferrari are catching up if you hadn't noticed.

:laugh:

Good one!

:rotflmao:


Did you watch the race yesterday?! :rolleyes:

[wedge]

Did you watch Monaco and Spanish GP or did you fall asleep during those races?

[Sleeper]

I have to agree, the loss of in season testing will hurt anyone who didn't produce the goods over the winter.
This is clearly evident with the plight of McLaren and Ferrari, however Ferrari at least appear to be dealing with things a little (quite a bit) better.

As for overtaking, we clearly saw Vettel in a faster lighter car get stuck behind Button, so the regs certainly haven't produced what was promised. Or possibly that was down to the double decker diffuser.
The loss of in season testing certainly seems to have hurt a lot, it needed to be reduced but banned was a bad decision.

I disagree with people that say that the racing is worse though, the rules do seem to have worked in the fact that the cars are visually able to follow closer than last year, it just doesnt seem to be quite enough. You pick out Vettel and blame the diffuser but I think thats rubbish, I didnt see anyone else have any trouble following the McLaren or Renault, particularly through turn 8 (!) and those two cars have had DDD's since China so I think that might be a case of the Red Bull just being very sensitive in the wake of another car.

The last two years were great because Ferrari and McLaren had cars of a similar pace but it was still a case of one track favouring one car over the other and a few where they really were equal. This year Brawn have a clear lead over every one else and its not helped by Rubens being unable to match Jenson.

[ioan]

Did you watch Monaco and Spanish GP or did you fall asleep during those races?

Did they win the race or did I miss something?!
If it wasn't for Toyota's slip up we would have been where we are now.
And anyway, compared to Brawn we didn't make any kind of progress up to now, every time we think Ferrari is getting there the truth shows it's not so kind side.

[BDunnell]

A lot of people tend to over-react everytime we have a dull GP. People tend to forget that there have always been dull GPs and always will be.

This is absolutely true, as I've said many times on these forums. However, this doesn't mean to say that it should be quite so hard to pass.

[woody2goody]

I agree 100% :up:

A lot of people tend to over-react everytime we have a dull GP. People tend to forget that there have always been dull GPs and always will be.

Thumbs up to both those posts. I know I've said this before but you didn't see cars anywhere near each other in the high speed stuff last year.

Also there was plaenty of passing in every race apart from Spain and Monaco. There was actually a fair bit of passing in Turkey, just not as much as some people expected.

A lot of the 'lack of passing' is to do with KERS and those cars A) getting a boost off the start and gaining positions, and B) using it to keep much faster cars behind them.

Look at Kovalainen vs Barrichello on Sunday. Rubens was 2 sec per lap faster, and had no 7th gear, and even when he managed to somehow get past, he was immediately re-passed. It was great racing at the time, but possibly denied us some better racing by watching Rubens pass more cars and not run into the back of the McLaren.

Some people criticised Vettel for not passing Button, and criticised the rules at that, however you still have to wait for an opening, and when he was close enough, he didn't have a chance to pass. It would be stupid to risk a move on Button, take them both out and lose points to Webber and Trulli.

[wedge]

Did they win the race or did I miss something?!
If it wasn't for Toyota's slip up we would have been where we are now.
And anyway, compared to Brawn we didn't make any kind of progress up to now, every time we think Ferrari is getting there the truth shows it's not so kind side.

So finding about a second with car development despite the new R&D rules isn't progress then?

[ioan]

So finding about a second with car development despite the new R&D rules isn't progress then?

They didn't find any second. Every time it looks like they got closer the Honda get's faster again.

[ioan]

Look at Kovalainen vs Barrichello on Sunday. Rubens was 2 sec per lap faster, and had no 7th gear, and even when he managed to somehow get past, he was immediately re-passed. It was great racing at the time, but possibly denied us some better racing by watching Rubens pass more cars and not run into the back of the McLaren.

No way, Rubens also ran into the back of the Force India, whom does not use KERS.

It's just that Rubens is pants. If he couldn't pass Kovalainen and Sutil he would have got no chance against better drivers in faster cars, like Alonso for example!

[woody2goody]

No way, Rubens also ran into the back of the Force India, whom does not use KERS.

It's just that Rubens is pants. If he couldn't pass Kovalainen and Sutil he would have got no chance against better drivers in faster cars, like Alonso for example!

Alonso: better driver, yes, better car, no.

To be fair to Rubinho he was getting desperate, especially after Kovy blasted past with KERS.

The Sutil move was daft as it wasn't really on, but he had to do something.

[wmcot]

So finding about a second with car development despite the new R&D rules isn't progress then?

Not when everybody else finds .95 seconds!

[Sonic]

There will never be lots of overtaking in F1, because usually faster cars are in front and slower cars are at the back after qualifying. So what do you want? Force India car to pressure Red Bull car into a mistake?

If you want 10000 overtakes per lap, watch nascar. F1 is simply not that kind of series and never will be.

You're bang on there buddy. And more to the point its the case in almost all 4 wheeled motorsport series where the grids are not artificially jumbled up or car performance standardised.

If an overtake per lap is most peoples primary concern I have to ask the question; why become a fan of F1 in the first place because in the 20 years I have been following the sport it has always been the case.

On the OWG rules I have to say they have done good work. Vettel got to about 1 second before the dirty air cause his pace to drop, and he closed to a minimum of 0.4 seconds. Something nigh on impossible with F1 cars for at least a decade.

[wedge]

Not when everybody else finds .95 seconds!

By that logic the same will occur with in-season testing!

The point I'm trying to make is that it is far too ridiculously early to comment on the new rules regarding R&D and testing.

It is like a lottery. One year you'll get a dominant car, another year next two teams fighting for WDC - both either near equal or one being developed into a winner

[jens]

No matter, what the technical rules are, there is always one common aspect of racing - fastest car drives away from others into the distance. And no matter, how the technical rules look like, there is nothing to do for preventing it and hence, a "normal" Formula One is meant to be boring. This has been the case for the majority of F1's history. If you want excitement, then the fastest cars must start from further down on the grid, but I'm not sure unfair competition would be a preferred choice. An interesting race occurs if the fastest one(s) do(es)n't have a smooth race for some reason - mistakes, strategy, problems, etc. If the fastest car drives into the distance, then it simply does not matter, how easy or difficult is it to pass - it's impossible for a slower car to give any kind threat in that area.

Like F1 as it is. People have always complained about the "excitement" part of F1, we have seen all kinds of rules throughout the years, but the main essence of racing remains the same.

[555-04Q2]

Ferrari are catching up if you hadn't noticed.

If thats what you call catching up, then they are fu@ked! Ferrari were strong at a slow circuit at Monaco, but nowhere again in Turkey. I though after Monaco they were getting there, Turkey proved otherwise.

[ShiftingGears]

Faster cars generally being at the front has always been true.
It is when a faster car is behind a slower car that the aero regulations are supposed to make a difference.

Ideally for passing, the regulations should allow lower cornering speeds and faster straight speeds - not only is this safer for the driver but this opens up more passing opportunities as the braking zones are larger, and more frequent.
The DDD increases cornering speeds, and so passing becomes less likely.

[jens]

When talking about faster cars being behind slower ones, then IMO passing shouldn't be "too easy" either, but a pass should be some kind of an achievement. A battle, which exists for a bit longer, is more exciting, than a pass, where a faster car immediately blasts past a slower one and disappeares into the distance.

[ShiftingGears]

When talking about faster cars being behind slower ones, then IMO passing shouldn't be "too easy" either, but a pass should be some kind of an achievement. A battle, which exists for a bit longer, is more exciting, than a pass, where a faster car immediately blasts past a slower one and disappeares into the distance.

Agreed.

[SGWilko]

ffwd through the part between the final stops and the end of the race!

philistine!

[Sleeper]

Faster cars generally being at the front has always been true.
It is when a faster car is behind a slower car that the aero regulations are supposed to make a difference.

Ideally for passing, the regulations should allow lower cornering speeds and faster straight speeds - not only is this safer for the driver but this opens up more passing opportunities as the braking zones are larger, and more frequent.
The DDD increases cornering speeds, and so passing becomes less likely.
The fact that cornering speeds are up this year has nothing to do with the DDD, its because F1 switched back to slick tyres giving a much bigger contact patch and allowing for more of the available downforce to be used, despite the fact that this years cars have about 80% of last years total downforce.

[ioan]

The fact that cornering speeds are up this year has nothing to do with the DDD...

BS!
DDD = Higher downforce level = higher cornering speed! Say it's not true and I'll put you on my ignore list, you'll be the only one on it.

The slicks have their part, but you need more vertical load in order to achieve better friction and that load comes from aero downforce that this year comes from the DDD given that the rear wings are much smaller.
The tires would be sliding around without the needed downforce.

[Sleeper]

BS!
DDD = Higher downforce level = higher cornering speed! Say it's not true and I'll put you on my ignore list, you'll be the only one on it.
You dont want to do that, think of all the fun arguments you'll miss :p



The slicks have their part, but you need more vertical load in order to achieve better friction and that load comes from aero downforce that this year comes from the DDD given that the rear wings are much smaller.
The tires would be sliding around without the needed downforce.
Of course the point of the DDD is to produce more downforce than a standard diffuser, my comment was the comparison to last year, and overall downforce levels are down because the aero of this years car is definitely less complex than last years.

Tyres are the major limiting factor with grip, though. They are the only part of the car that comes into contact with the ground its through them that the downforce has to act. Because the contact patches are much larger this year, a much higher percentage of downforce gets used in actually producing grip. Buemi's winter testing times in an 08 car with 09 tyres blew away all the new cars and proves this.

[ioan]

You dont want to do that, think of all the fun arguments you'll miss :p

That's the main reason why none of the current members is on my ignore list.



Of course the point of the DDD is to produce more downforce than a standard diffuser, my comment was the comparison to last year, and overall downforce levels are down because the aero of this years car is definitely less complex than last years.

Tyres are the major limiting factor with grip, though. They are the only part of the car that comes into contact with the ground its through them that the downforce has to act. Because the contact patches are much larger this year, a much higher percentage of downforce gets used in actually producing grip. Buemi's winter testing times in an 08 car with 09 tyres blew away all the new cars and proves this.

However the point is that the rules as they were decided last year should have reduced the downforce levels by 50%, however due to the FIA allowing the DDD the loss is only of 25% and this means that around 1/2 of the cornering speed increase is due to the use of the DDD.

[Sleeper]

However the point is that the rules as they were decided last year should have reduced the downforce levels by 50%, however due to the FIA allowing the DDD the loss is only of 25% and this means that around 1/2 of the cornering speed increase is due to the use of the DDD.
Wait, even with the DDD they have LESS downforce than last year and thats why they are going faster through corners? :s

The reason they are allowed in is because BMW and Renault didnt want the rules closed up further this time last year when Brawn brought up the point of loopholes in the rules. I bet they are regretting that now. :D

[ioan]

Wait, even with the DDD they have LESS downforce than last year and thats why they are going faster through corners? :s

Please go and read my last post again.

[Sleeper]

Please go and read my last post again.
I did, and it still doesnt make any sense, you admit that downforce levels are lower this year than last yet you insist that the DDD is partly responsible for an increase in cornering speeds.

Tell me then, how at the first 5 races Red Bull had increased cornering speeds without the DDD, given that last years Red Bull at this point of the season was the 4th fastest car?

[ioan]

I did, and it still doesnt make any sense, you admit that downforce levels are lower this year than last yet you insist that the DDD is partly responsible for an increase in cornering speeds.

And what part of partly doesn't suit reality?!

[V12]

No matter, what the technical rules are, there is always one common aspect of racing - fastest car drives away from others into the distance. And no matter, how the technical rules look like, there is nothing to do for preventing it and hence, a "normal" Formula One is meant to be boring. This has been the case for the majority of F1's history. If you want excitement, then the fastest cars must start from further down on the grid, but I'm not sure unfair competition would be a preferred choice. An interesting race occurs if the fastest one(s) do(es)n't have a smooth race for some reason - mistakes, strategy, problems, etc. If the fastest car drives into the distance, then it simply does not matter, how easy or difficult is it to pass - it's impossible for a slower car to give any kind threat in that area.

Like F1 as it is. People have always complained about the "excitement" part of F1, we have seen all kinds of rules throughout the years, but the main essence of racing remains the same.

Very well put.

And I couldn't be bothered double-quoting :p but also about the fact the overtaking shouldn't be easy and that a good close battle lasting a number of laps is better than cars just automatically driving past each other.

I'm currently working on an (admittedly relatively crude) simulator of an F1 race for a game I'm working on. I'll try not to bore you all with the finer details but each circuit has a property for how easy it is to overtake. I did a little experiment and set the "overtaking" setting for a particular circuit to something abnormal meaning that essentially the cars were all "ghost" cars that could just drive through each other. I ran a race and after the initial swapping around with cars making differing starts, and the "Trullis" dropped backwards and the poorer qualifiers made their way up a few places, the cars just fanned out for the final two thirds of the race with no changes in position.

Making overtaking more difficult, cars would battle all race long, some cars would swap positions as they were both held up by slightly slower cars ahead of them, although of course if the fastest guy was out front he would pull away just as he should do.

Going to the other extreme, basically a "Monaco" or "Hungaroring" setting, meant yes there were very few changes for position but the race stayed more open for longer, and you had cars battling right till the end of the race.

Even implementing things like pit stops with different fuel loads and tyre compounds putting the cars on different strategies, and trying to model stuff like tyre degradation and inconsistencies in sets of tyres, and some cars starting to back off towards to save their mechanicals, yes it produced a bit of more of a variation even in the "ghost car" race, but the overall theme remained.

Admittedly this is just a game, well not even a game but a simulation that I hope to introduce a playable aspect to, may not have much reference to real life, but maybe there's something in all of that :)

[wedge]

And I couldn't be bothered double-quoting :p but also about the fact the overtaking shouldn't be easy and that a good close battle lasting a number of laps is better than cars just automatically driving past each other.

Agreed. That's why I'm a fan of KERS.

Spain was a good example with Vettel vs. Massa, Kimi vs. Heidfeld.

Problem with Turkey is that the cars were spaced out too far and the track does produce snorefests: 2007 being a prime example.