FIAT technology coming to North America

[Jag_Warrior]

Oh goody! :dozey:



Fiat finished 20th of 25 brands in J.D. Power's 2008 Customer Satisfaction Index Study in France. A sampling of brand rankings and scores
1. BMW (top score): 815
6. Toyota: 803
12. Ford: 792
Industry average: 791
20. Fiat: 766
22. Chrysler: 756
26. Suzuki (bottom score): 747
*Note: Power weighed responses of customers in France after about 2 years of ownership: Vehicle quality and reliability, 38%; vehicle appeal, such as performance of engine and comfort, 22%; ownership costs, 20%; service satisfaction, 19 percent. Percentages don't equal 100% due to rounding. The weightings varied in the German and the United Kingdom studies.


Two ugly people are going to have a baby. Gee, I wonder what the kid is going to look like? :rolleyes:

[anthonyvop]

J.D. Powers is a joke.

Fiat currently makes some fine cars. Don't believe me? Go test drive a Suzuki SX4........$15K AWD....Best deal of any car you can buy in the US.

Oh......and it is a Fiat. Actual a joint venture with Suzuki. In Europe it is called the Fiat Sedici.

[Roamy]

yea f____ JD Powers they once rated America West Airlines on top what a joke.

I have owned many Fiat 124s and Lancia Scorpions and love them all. If you can't handle the enthuasiam then buy that German low RPM stuff and you can drive one car in your lifetime. 8000 rpm in a light 4 banger gets it.
especially when you add a turbo.

[Jag_Warrior]

I don't know the (objective) basis for the criticism of J.D. Power, other than anecdotals. When the Dodge Nitro was listed as "the worst engineered vehicle in North America", from my own knowledge and objective data, I had to agree with that assessment - and I really didn't want to. And in this case, the J.D. Power assessment of Chrysler in France matches their assessment (and the assessment of Consumer Reports) in North America = Chrysler ranks near the bottom of the pack when it comes to reliability and quality. The fact that I drove a Jeep Grand Cherokee and it performed well, or I know someone who owns a Dodge Charger and he loves it, doesn't prove anything when considering the overall population of Chrysler vehicles. The same would be true of FIAT vehicles.

This is simply what customers had to say, who had owned Fiats and Chryslers (and other vehicles) over a two year period. There may be other studies which show different results. But in North America, whether some people like it or not, J.D. Power is the industry standard.

[anthonyvop]

yea f____ JD Powers they once rated America West Airlines on top what a joke.

I have owned many Fiat 124s and Lancia Scorpions and love them all. If you can't handle the enthuasiam then buy that German low RPM stuff and you can drive one car in your lifetime. 8000 rpm in a light 4 banger gets it.
especially when you add a turbo.

Scorpion????

I have a Scorp rusting away until I get around to restore it. Already did the 2ltr conversion. It has twin webbers but i have a Fiat F/I system all ready to install.

[Roamy]

Scorpion????

I have a Scorp rusting away until I get around to restore it. Already did the 2ltr conversion. It has twin webbers but i have a Fiat F/I system all ready to install.

wow shades of history. I did a F/I converstion - stick with the webbers.
I also did one of the first turbo conversions long time ago. The gearbox was so short coupled that we just shifted at 20lbs of boost. It was a freaking rocket. The bottom held up but even after o-ringing the head I still had to do the upper end about once a year. 20 lbs is a lot - we had to run water injection for the detonation and that worked well. It was a suck through so I played with several carbs including a small four barrel. Man it would shoot a big shot of fire out the back. So I finally ended up with a weber side draft and it worked quite well as you could adjust the jetting pretty good. send a whole bunch of 911s home crying!! in the end the IHI turbo worked well but we did try a big one for a while.

[Tazio]

Jag your condescending, and insulting premise is wrong on this one.
FIAT is diminishing their auto empire's reputation big time by associating their name with Chrysler.
Let's take a closer look!
Currently FIAT owns Maserati Lancia ALFA Romeo, and 90% of Ferrari,
as well as their own marc which is a solid sporty economical car.
The days of problems of defects from "Wine-Break Welds" is long past ;)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

My customer satisfaction with FIAT has just dropped. Tried to book a service for my car but 'this department is not available at the moment'. And my hub cap fell off :(

[Tazio]

my hub cap fell off :( You need to go to service over a hubcap?
Snap your hubcap back on, and quit running into curbs! :rolleyes:
Or the next thing's to go are your wheel bearings, than your CV Joints!
Then you really will need service! ;)

[Jag_Warrior]

Jag your condescending, and insulting premise is wrong on this one.
FIAT is diminishing their auto empire's reputation big time by associating their name with Chrysler.
Let's take a closer look!
Currently FIAT owns Maserati Lancia ALFA Romeo, and 90% of Ferrari,
as well as their own marc which is a solid sporty economical car.
The days of problems of defects from "Wine-Break Welds" is long past ;)

Tazio, I'd be happy to see some data which counters that gathered by J.D. Power.

[Tazio]

Tazio, I'd be happy to see some data which counters that gathered by J.D. Power.My argument doesn't require one.
That is a customer survey.
Show me one done by engineers, and/or mechanics
and that survey would have real validity!
Peace Bro :)

[Jag_Warrior]

My argument doesn't require one.
That is a customer survey.
Show me one done by engineers, and/or mechanics
and that survey would have real validity!
Peace Bro :)

Think about what you're saying. From a business standpoint, who matters the most, engineers and mechanics or the people who have actually bought your product?

Most businesses perform internal quality assurance checks and engineering validation studies. I know that Chrysler does. I assume that FIAT does. But at the end of the day, customer expectations have to be met, if your business is to be successful. If your customers rank you poorly, they're less likely to buy your product again, and that is what matters to any business.

In the North American auto industry, J.D. Power is the accepted industry standard. That doesn't mean that Consumer Reports (or some other source) doesn't matter, just that all of the N.A. auto OEM's look at the data collected and analyzed by J.D. Power with more weight. Consumer data collection laws are different around the world. So I have heard that J.D. Power's methodologies vary from region to region, and country to country. What I was curious about, does anyone have access to data which shows FIAT (or Chyrsler) in a better light? I'm not married to either company. But I work with data, not anecdotals.

[Tazio]

Think about what you're saying. From a business standpoint, who matters the most, engineers and mechanics or the people who have actually bought your product?

Most businesses perform internal quality assurance checks and engineering validation studies. I know that Chrysler does. I assume that FIAT does. But at the end of the day, customer expectations have to be met, if your business is to be successful. If your customers rank you poorly, they're less likely to buy your product again, and that is what matters to any business.

In the North American auto industry, J.D. Power is the accepted industry standard. That doesn't mean that Consumer Reports (or some other source) doesn't matter, just that all of the N.A. auto OEM's look at the data collected and analyzed by J.D. Power with more weight. Consumer data collection laws are different around the world. So I have heard that J.D. Power's methodologies vary from region to region, and country to country. What I was curious about, does anyone have access to data which shows FIAT (or Chyrsler) in a better light? I'm not married to either company. But I work with data, not anecdotals.The flaw with your argument is FIAT doesn't market the states like they do other parts of the world. Of course Americans are going to rate FIAT products low here because their are so few models sold, and everyone envisions the days when FIAT did sell a lot of cars here, and they were substandard in many ways. You can't even buy an ALFA in the States I haven't seen a new Lancia, or FIAT for that matter in ages. They just started selling Maserati here again two or three years ago. Bottom line. As of now Chrysler products are POS compared to FIAT products.
END OF STORY
Have a nice day :up:

[Hondo]

I loved my little red Fiat 850 Spider. Of course it rusted itself to death but not before I had the joy of making some of the parts I needed, but couldn't get. I learned a lot of good stuff from that car. I also learned Webber carb rebuild kits come with Italian instructions. Ahhh....the good 'ol days.

[Hondo]

My method of vehicle purchase:

If I like the body style and potential, I'm buying it and will deal with or erradicate the short comings.

If venturing into unknown territory, like the pickup, I pay attention to what I see on the side of the road with the hood up and whats on the back of tow trucks. Thus my Nissan Titan which hasn't been back to the dealer for anything since I drove it off the lot 4 years ago. Tires and Mobil 1 oil changes has been the only work done.

I'd be willing to look at Fiat again if they are coming back into the US.

[Donney]

I basically follow Fiero's method of purchase.

[Jag_Warrior]

The flaw with your argument is FIAT doesn't market the states like they do other parts of the world. Of course Americans are going to rate FIAT products low here because their are so few models sold, and everyone envisions the days when FIAT did sell a lot of cars here, and they were substandard in many ways. You can't even buy an ALFA in the States I haven't seen a new Lancia, or FIAT for that matter in ages. They just started selling Maserati here again two or three years ago. Bottom line. As of now Chrysler products are POS compared to FIAT products.
END OF STORY
Have a nice day :up:

That wasn't my argument. So I'm not sure what you're talking about. The study was done in France... by an American based company, J.D. Power. But the consumers in question were French. Why would you say that their ratings aren't valid, when they're the ones who actually bought the cars???

What I pointed out, as people claimed things about J.D. Power, is that in North America, it is the industry standard provider of this type of data. And I even said:

What I was curious about, does anyone have access to data which shows FIAT (or Chyrsler) in a better light? I'm not married to either company. But I work with data, not anecdotals.

This is beginning to remind me of a period on the old CART and IRL boards several years ago. When declining TV ratings were presented, people would begin claiming that Nielsen was biased, unreliable and CART/IRL fans were not being properly counted. One fellow even put up a poll and asked how many people on the board were in Nielsen families. There were none. So he concluded (in perhaps the sloppiest, saddest display of pseudo-statistics that I have ever seen) that Champ Car fans were all over the place. And CCWS broadcasts had all kinds of viewers. Nielsen was wrong. The market was wrong. Sponsors were wrong. That was pretty pitiful... though not as bad & sad as the IRL fans who claimed that increased sun spot activity was responsible for the declining IRL Nielsen ratings back around early 2000 or so. I'm not sure if Defender was in that confederacy of dunces or not, but that was the single most idiotic group of people that I've ever conversed with on the internet. Anyway...

The bottom line is this, if FIAT is indeed a producer of higher quality, more reliable automobiles than this French J.D. Power study suggests, then there should be objective, supporting data. Why do people try to counter variable data with anecdotal stories and subjective opinions? I've been doing this for years, and I'm always perplexed as to why that is. :confused:

[Daniel]

Seriously JD power need to go screw themselves.

They rate BMW so highly? Wtf? This is the same BMW that owns Mini which offers cheap service plans to Mini owners so they can get the cars in regularly to carry out recall work without their knowledge? the same Mini that has had a rash of power steering units failures? The same Mini who has had scores of problems with wiper motors in cars only a few years old? Mini just hide their failings better than other car makers.....

Personally I'd rather Dubya with another double term as President of the world than trust the findings of JD power which bases its findings off what people who obvious don't know their arse from their heads.

I myself have gone and taken the plunge and bought a 1.2 Fiat 500 and I really have no worries about it being a reliable car. The car which it's based on (the Fiat Panda) is one of the best made cars on sale at the moment. It's got a slighly newer version of an engine Fiat has been making for years so really there's not much to go wrong. One thing I'm worried about for the future is the dampers as the Panda ones don't seem to last long but I'll replaced them with some decent aftermarket ones when they do go and all will be fine. But if the engine and gearbox are fine what else is there to worry about? The body is galvanised so the rust argument flies out the window as well.

This is my old 131 which lasted rather well till yours truly decided to introduce it to the back of a Toyota 4wd.

http://members.iinet.net.au/%7Efenix1983/Files/My%20131_2.jpg

Fiat are bringing some kickass technology out soon. The Fiat 500 is going to get a 900cc two cylinder camless engine which is going to replace the 1.2 I'm getting as well as giving better torque and much better fuel efficiency. They're also bringing out a turbo version which will give 5bhp more than the current 1.4 as well as giving far better economy, emmissions etc etc.....

http://www.cubiccapacity.com/futures-bright-fiat-coming-up-with-multijet2-superfire-ddct-and-multiair/

The DDCT boxes they're doing in conjunction with Borg Warner will also bring big increases in fuel efficiency as well as emmisions and performance.

I think a lot of people will be surprised by Fiat in about 3 or 4 years time.

[Tazio]

That wasn't my argument. So I'm not sure what you're talking about. The study was done in France... by an American based company, J.D. Power. But the consumers in question were French. Why would you say that their ratings aren't valid, when they're the ones who actually bought the cars???

What I pointed out, as people claimed things about J.D. Power, is that in North America, it is the industry standard provider of this type of data. And I even said:


This is beginning to remind me of a period on the old CART and IRL boards several years ago. When declining TV ratings were presented, people would begin claiming that Nielsen was biased, unreliable and CART/IRL fans were not being properly counted. One fellow even put up a poll and asked how many people on the board were in Nielsen families. There were none. So he concluded (in perhaps the sloppiest, saddest display of pseudo-statistics that I have ever seen) that Champ Car fans were all over the place. And CCWS broadcasts had all kinds of viewers. Nielsen was wrong. The market was wrong. Sponsors were wrong. That was pretty pitiful... though not as bad & sad as the IRL fans who claimed that increased sun spot activity was responsible for the declining IRL Nielsen ratings back around early 2000 or so. I'm not sure if Defender was in that confederacy of dunces or not, but that was the single most idiotic group of people that I've ever conversed with on the internet. Anyway...

The bottom line is this, if FIAT is indeed a producer of higher quality, more reliable automobiles than this French J.D. Power study suggests, then there should be objective, supporting data. Why do people try to counter variable data with anecdotal stories and subjective opinions? I've been doing this for years, and I'm always perplexed as to why that is. :confused: I guess were going to just have to disagree!
What I know, I know intrinsically. I don't hold J.D. Power in very high esteem.
I stand corrected on the assertion made about the nationality of the customer sampling! :arrows:
After all you did state it in your first sentence
Just out of curiosity where did Renault, Citroen and Peugeot rate with Le Blues :mark:
Could you post the link!
Thanks in advance

[Jag_Warrior]

It's not about disagreeing, Tazio. As I said, I don't have a dog in the fight. I own two Jaguars, among other brands. Even when the Jaguar car company was being widely criticized for poor quality years ago, my '88 XJS always served me quite well - no major problems in 21 years. Despite what others may have experienced, I've been a happy camper. So I bought an '05 XK8. I'm happy with it too. Even though Jag's overall quality is measurably higher now than in the 80's and early 90's, I'm no more and no less happy with the newer one than the older one. Now that (friends, Romans and countrymen) is an anecdotal. If a data collection organization included my opinion with those of 1000 or 10,000 other Jag owners, it would mean something, from a business and statistical standpoint. But my opinion alone, totally unsupported by objective data is just that: an opinion. I'm not disagreeing that someone here isn't or shouldn't be pleased as punch with their FIAT. I'm just explaining how and why the auto industry relies on objective data, from the broadest, most diverse population possible. If some people don't like J.D. Power, that's totally up to them. Personally, I don't much like asparagus. What that means, I have no idea. The band plays on regardless.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10253731-48.html

And one for the UK as well:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/08/ruh-roh-chrysler-fiat-finishes-dead-last-in-new-british-j-d-p/

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/charts/2009101a.gif

[steve_spackman]

It's not about disagreeing, Tazio. As I said, I don't have a dog in the fight. I own two Jaguars, among other brands. Even when the Jaguar car company was being widely criticized for poor quality years ago, my '88 XJS always served me quite well - no major problems in 21 years. Despite what others may have experienced, I've been a happy camper. So I bought an '05 XK8. I'm happy with it too. Even though Jag's overall quality is measurably higher now than in the 80's and early 90's, I'm no more and no less happy with the newer one than the older one. Now that (friends, Romans and countrymen) is an anecdotal. If a data collection organization included my opinion with those of 1000 or 10,000 other Jag owners, it would mean something, from a business and statistical standpoint. But my opinion alone, totally unsupported by objective data is just that: an opinion. I'm not disagreeing that someone here isn't or shouldn't be pleased as punch with their FIAT. I'm just explaining how and why the auto industry relies on objective data, from the broadest, most diverse population possible. If some people don't like J.D. Power, that's totally up to them. Personally, I don't much like asparagus. What that means, I have no idea. The band plays on regardless.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10253731-48.html

And one for the UK as well:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/08/ruh-roh-chrysler-fiat-finishes-dead-last-in-new-british-j-d-p/

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/charts/2009101a.gif

Interesting to see that Fiat is at the bottom when im sure they won the 'best car award'. http://www.lifeinitaly.com/node/5015

[steve_spackman]

At the New York International Auto Show the award’s organisers announced today that Fiat 500 has been voted “2009 World Car Design of the Year”.



http://www.fiatgroupautomobilespress.com/index.php?lng=2&group=1&method=news&action=zoom&id=4408

[Easy Drifter]

To inject some levity:

FORD = Fix Or Repair Daily
FORD = Found On Road Dead

Old mechanics jokes. Not to be taken seriously

[Tazio]

It's not about disagreeing, Tazio. As I said, I don't have a dog in the fight. I own two Jaguars, among other brands. Even when the Jaguar car company was being widely criticized for poor quality years ago, my '88 XJS always served me quite well - no major problems in 21 years. Despite what others may have experienced, I've been a happy camper. So I bought an '05 XK8. I'm happy with it too. Even though Jag's overall quality is measurably higher now than in the 80's and early 90's, I'm no more and no less happy with the newer one than the older one. Now that (friends, Romans and countrymen) is an anecdotal. If a data collection organization included my opinion with those of 1000 or 10,000 other Jag owners, it would mean something, from a business and statistical standpoint. But my opinion alone, totally unsupported by objective data is just that: an opinion. I'm not disagreeing that someone here isn't or shouldn't be pleased as punch with their FIAT. I'm just explaining how and why the auto industry relies on objective data, from the broadest, most diverse population possible. If some people don't like J.D. Power, that's totally up to them. Personally, I don't much like asparagus. What that means, I have no idea. The band plays on regardless.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10253731-48.html

And one for the UK as well:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/08/ruh-roh-chrysler-fiat-finishes-dead-last-in-new-british-j-d-p/

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/charts/2009101a.gifI no longer have a dog in the fight either! I sold my ALFA about 6 months ago.

Here is our disagreement as I see it! We are arguing oranges and an eight course meal :eek:

That survey is representing FIAT as a FIAT car. I'm arguing that FIAT the corporation has bought into Chrysler.
I'm counting their other marques they own also. I'm saying FIAT brings ALFA, Lancia, Maserati, and Ferrari into the equation.
And I believe it's a reasonable assumption, which to me makes that survey useless,
ALFA, Lancia, and Maserati didn't suddenly turned to $hit since FIAT bought them.
And I don't believe people (of means) regard Ferrari as 90% POS ;) :)

[Tazio]

To inject some levity:

FORD = Fix Or Repair Daily
FORD = Found On Road Dead

Old mechanics jokes. Not to be taken seriously
Fix It Again Tony :p :
Poor Old ______Thinks It's A Cadillac :eek:

[Rollo]

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/charts/2009101a.gif[/QUOTE]

Assuming that the list is correct, then what I noticed in the list provided, is that of the automotive companies listed, there is almost (but not quite) a correlation between rating and the relative prices of the vehicles sold. The outriders are Toyota which is renown for its quality and build control, and of course Kia which is more or less a total mystery to me when you consider that they produced cars like the Kia Pride which was basically Mazda 121 without the care taken.

What I don't find remarkable at all, is that of all the cars listed, only Chrysler is produced in America, with every other car company producing cars for the European market either in the EU, Japan or Korea. I then ask then question of how this would differ if they took a European survey compared with the American equivalents.

If anything, all that this list suggests is that FIAT are producing cars deliberately designed to be cheap, which is fine if all you're after is cheap motoring. On the whole, the suggestion that Chrysler is so poor, only leads me to support the conclusion that American build quality is generally worse than their European counterparts.


GM North America after being shown better built cars, still continues to foist worse quality cars on Americans than the rest of the world.

FIAT producing cheap cars for America means that in theory, they would not have to rethink their design stratagem. What I do fear is what would happen if an already cheap car was produced by Americans for the American market... how many kinds of rubbish would that be? :\

[Tazio]

FIAT producing cheap cars for America means that in theory, they would not have to rethink their design stratagem. What I do fear is what would happen if an already cheap car was produced by Americans for the American market... how many kinds of rubbish would that be? This is an interesting observation.
However as American Cars go Chrysler is considered High End! :mark:

[anthonyvop]

This is an interesting observation.
However as American Cars go Chrysler is considered High End! :mark:

35 years ago in the heyday of the Imperial and New Yorker.

[Rollo]

This is an interesting observation.
However as American Cars go Chrysler is considered High End! :mark:

I'd hate to see what low end is... no wait, I've seen plenty on low end on American roads. The Chevy Cobalt, Chevy Malibu, NA Ford Focus, Dodge Caliber, Ford Crown Victoria... at least that's what I've driven on American roads.

My impression was that cars are seen more of an appliance than in Europe. Perhaps it's understandable in principle why Chrysler is second last.

[Tazio]

I'd hate to see what low end is... no wait, I've seen plenty on low end on American roads. The Chevy Cobalt, Chevy Malibu, NA Ford Focus, Dodge Caliber, Ford Crown Victoria... at least that's what I've driven on American roads.

My impression was that cars are seen more of an appliance than in Europe. Perhaps it's understandable in principle why Chrysler is second last.
There is actually method to the madness. When I lived in Las Vegas in the 1980's
Large displacement engines were best suited for driving in 110 degree weather,
because they would drive the AC without overheating the engine.
Four bangers were much more liable to overheat, and AC units had to be fitted to the engine power.
With better technology it's no longer as critical!

[Jag_Warrior]

I no longer have a dog in the fight either! I sold my ALFA about 6 months ago.

Here is our disagreement as I see it! We are arguing oranges and an eight course meal

That survey is representing FIAT as a FIAT car. I'm arguing that FIAT the corporation has bought into Chrysler.
I'm counting their other marques they own also. I'm saying FIAT brings ALFA, Lancia, Maserati, and Ferrari into the equation.
And I believe it's a reasonable assumption, which to me makes that survey useless,
ALFA, Lancia, and Maserati didn't suddenly turned to $hit since FIAT bought them.
And I don't believe people (of means) regard Ferrari as 90% POS

That's right, it's the FIAT brand/nameplate... just like Chevrolet is a brand within General Motors - all in the graph. It's also stated in the graph that smaller volume brands are not included due to small sample size, Alfa being one of them. Ferrari is run as an autonomous subsidiary within FIAT S.p.A. Neither it nor Maserati are part of FIAT Auto, which does include FIAT, Lancia, Alfa and other brands. But I'm not sure what a largely handbuilt Ferrari has in common with a FIAT anyway. With my former company, we made parts for FIAT, Magneti Marelli and for Ferrari. Even parts intended for similar applications weren't necessarily made from the same grades of steel! Why? Because the specifications, cost and expectations were different. So which one do you think FIAT is more likely to put in the $20K Chrysler? The part more like the one in the $20K FIAT, or the one more like the part in the $250K Ferrari?

Look, without data, I have no idea what the quality or reliability of Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Maserati or even Ferrari are. I've asked several times if anyone has any objective data. But most responses seem to rely on subjective opinions based on people's likes or dislikes. And that's fine for sh!^s & giggles... I just don't place much value on that sort of thing. Or even better, "I don't like J.D. Power! I just don't! Data that shows results that I don't like is meaningless!!!" Like I said, I don't like asparagus, but what either of those feelings has to do with the price of hubcaps in Mississippi, I really don't know. The only comparison I can make, and did make, was between the Chrysler brand and the FIAT brand. Did you see me include Jeep in there? No. Did I include or speak of Dodge trucks? No. So why would I speak about Lancia or Alfa, when I don't have any data on them either? Sure, I guess I could pull it out of my azz, as some are doing. Let me try it. "I rode in a Dodge Charger SRT last year and man, I tell you... was it a great car! Fast as hell and nothing went wrong. So I know darn well that Dodge makes some doo dandy, hella great cars!!! Screw J.D. Power. Fight the power!!! Free Huey... Dewey and Louie!" Sorry, I didn't get much of a thrill out of that. :(

The FIAT brand is the largest volume producer within the FIAT Auto family. And there's consumer data from two different countries on that brand. Chrysler is the largest volume producer within Chrysler, LLC. And there's consumer data from two different countries on that brand. You can claim that the consumers' opinions (ya know... those who actually buy the cars) don't count. You can say that the consumers might not be pleased with the cars, but as long as we can find a mechanic or an engineer who says it's good to go, all is well. Interesting theory. I think GM relied on that methodology of logic for much of the 70's and 80's. By the way, how'd that work out for them? :dozey:

Does all this mean that I think that FIAT and Chrysler will build the worst cars the world has ever seen? Nope, but then again, I didn't say that. But I absolutely do see some cause for concern based on this data. FIAT has certainly made improvements over the years... whether they're where they want to be or not. But rather than build a vacation house on the River Denial, I figure that they'll continue to work toward improving the breed. And if they don't? Easy. The Japanese will kick their asses back to Italy. :p

[Jag_Warrior]

Cadillac and Lincoln are high(er) end. Other than the Dodge Viper, Chrysler, LLC doesn't currently make a passenger car anywhere near the upper end of the segment. And no, crashing a $35K LX/Chrysler 300 into your local Auto Zone doesn't count as high end. :p

[Jag_Warrior]

Assuming that the list is correct, then what I noticed in the list provided, is that of the automotive companies listed, there is almost (but not quite) a correlation between rating and the relative prices of the vehicles sold. The outriders are Toyota which is renown for its quality and build control, and of course Kia which is more or less a total mystery to me when you consider that they produced cars like the Kia Pride which was basically Mazda 121 without the care taken.


I can see a correlation, in that all of the luxury and higher end makes, except for Land Rover (time to hear from Hazell, me thinks? :D ) are above the industry average ranking. And most of those below the industry average ranking are lower end makes. But of the top five, four are mid/upper mid segment.



What I don't find remarkable at all, is that of all the cars listed, only Chrysler is produced in America, with every other car company producing cars for the European market either in the EU, Japan or Korea. I then ask then question of how this would differ if they took a European survey compared with the American equivalents.

You mean the American produced equivalents of your Honda and Toyota models? I don't know. Interesting question though. But both Honda and Toyota export certain of their models from the U.S. now. Some of your models may come from the U.S. and you just don't know it. :D But honestly, I don't know what the destinations are... only that some models are exported from here.



If anything, all that this list suggests is that FIAT are producing cars deliberately designed to be cheap, which is fine if all you're after is cheap motoring. On the whole, the suggestion that Chrysler is so poor, only leads me to support the conclusion that American build quality is generally worse than their European counterparts.


I'm not sure that one example tells us anything about "American build quality", since the American built Buick tops the Japanese built Lexus in at least one consumer study I have seen. Cadillac also ranks quite high versus the German and Japanese marques. But again, I wouldn't make an inference without supporting data.



FIAT producing cheap cars for America means that in theory, they would not have to rethink their design stratagem. What I do fear is what would happen if an already cheap car was produced by Americans for the American market... how many kinds of rubbish would that be? :\

As I said in a previous post, Americans building Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans, Buicks, VW's, Subarus, Fords, etc. will just drive them back to Italy, as happened during their last foray into this market. The same thing happened to Peugeot. Make crap (even if it's cute crap), with the mistaken idea that we'll buy crap, and you might end up leaving with your pockets a good bit lighter. Yeah, I detect that anti-American tone in your post, Rollo. Do I need to bring up Lucas: "The Prince of Darkness"? I'll do it, Rollo. You know I'll do it! :D

[Tazio]

I'm not sure what a largely handbuilt Ferrari has in common with a FIAT anyway. Well since you asked I will give you what you want, Hard Imperical Data.
Both brands had body designs by the legendary Pininfarina.
For instance the Fiat 2300, and Ferrari Dino!
Just to mention a couple.
So there Mr smarty-pants ;) :arrows: :beer:

[Tazio]

Well since you asked I will give you what you want, Hard Imperical Data.
Both brands had body designs by the legendary Pininfarina.
For instance the Fiat 2300, and Ferrari Dino!
Just to mention a couple.
So there Mr smarty-pants ;) :arrows: :beer:
BTW......European Car of the Year Awards

Fiat cars have won the European Car of the Year Award 8 times
1967: Fiat 124
1970: Fiat 128
1972: Fiat 127
1984: Fiat Uno
1989: Fiat Tipo
1995: Fiat Punto
1996: Fiat Brava/Bravo
2004: Fiat Panda (New)

[Tazio]

While were at it, this is something maybe someone on the forum can explain to me.
I mentioned my ALFA that I recently sold. A 1984 Spider Veloce. (pre Fiat ownership)
I had a duplicate key made. I found it a little perplexing that the blank had Yugo engraved on it.
What's up with that? :confused:

[Donney]

I think FIAT owns or owned a good part of Yugo and Lada among many other brands as already mentioned.

[Tazio]

I think FIAT owns or owned a good part of Yugo and Lada among many other brands as already mentioned.I figured it was something like that!
However FIAT didn't acquire ALFA until the 1990's!

[Tazio]

35 years ago in the heyday of the Imperial and New Yorker.Tony those were the halcyon days of the American Luxury Sedan!
My father was always a Cadillac man.
At one point when I first started driving he had a Buick Electra as a second that I used a lot.
It was a "boat" with super-soft suspension. But man that thing was scary fast, :eek:
and Comfy! ;)

[Jag_Warrior]

Well since you asked I will give you what you want, Hard Imperical Data.
Both brands had body designs by the legendary Pininfarina.
For instance the Fiat 2300, and Ferrari Dino!
Just to mention a couple.
So there Mr smarty-pants ;) :arrows: :beer:

:dozey:

OK, Tazio.

[edv]

MMMMmmm Can't wait to get my hands on one of THESE babies:
http://www.channel4.com/4car/media/100-greatest/03-large/40-fiat-multipla.jpg

[Daniel]

MMMMmmm Can't wait to get my hands on one of THESE babies:

They'll never make their way to the US :)


This is what the Multipla looks like these days.
http://www.gfclarke.com/images/stock/P1010139.JPG

Very boring IMHO and almost looks like a Mercedes Benz.

I don't get the criticism of ye olde multipla. Yeah sure it looks a little odd but there is a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge amount of space inside and by all accounts as a people carrier it's great.
Far better than these two which scream I reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally should have kept it in my pants if I wanted to not have kids and have to drive a stupid people carrier. The cars below scream quarter life crisis! At least the Multipla shows you're confident enough to own a decent car no matter what it looks like ;)

Zafira VXR
http://www.m1gst.com/4images/data/media/206/zafira_mk2_VXR_2.jpg


Meriva VXR
http://www.channel4.com/4car/media/V/vauxhall/meriva/03-large/06-meriva-vxr-f3q-a.jpg

[Daniel]

Not sure if this will work but this is what my car should look like more or less when I eventually get it which should be later this month or sometime in July. Much better looking that the boring crap most other car makers are putting out at the moment! Well at least in my opinion :p

[Daniel]

Tried to post before but the picture quality was a bit poop.

Here's a picture of more or less what my 500 should look like when I get it which should hopefull be the end of this month or early July :)

http://members.iinet.net.au/~fenix1983/Files/500.jpg

I think it looks better than most of the boring crap you find in its class but then again I probably would say that :p

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Should have got one of these bad boys Daniel ;)

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v193/34/107/584373027/n584373027_346628_4734.jpg

[Daniel]

Should have got one of these bad boys Daniel ;)

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v193/34/107/584373027/n584373027_346628_4734.jpg
I like the GP but I wanted something extremely cheap to run so Panda or 500 it was for me ;)

[GridGirl]

Going off topic, but why would you post a picture of your car on a public forum without removing/blanking out the licence plate first? :s

[janvanvurpa]

Going off topic, but why would you post a picture of your car on a public forum without removing/blanking out the licence plate first? :s

I don't know why people DO obscure it.
Why?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I don't know why people DO obscure it.
Why?

most the cars on autotrader haven't had blanked number plates. Plus, everyone can see my cars number plate when i'm driving it. Its not like i have credit card details on there.

[GridGirl]

Maybe I'm just wary because a friend of mine had his registration plates stolen and they were then used on another vehicle during a robbery. Jon, I know your car make, colour, engine size, the fact your car was first registered on 30th May 2007 and that you must of renewed your road tax in the last two weeks all from your picture. What's to say I couldn't clone your car?

Most people posting pictures of their car on Autotrader wouldn't really care about the information I suppose. It stops becoming your problem when you actually sell the car.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

It'll be rite :)

[schmenke]

Tried to post before but the picture quality was a bit poop.

Here's a picture of more or less what my 500 should look like when I get it which should hopefull be the end of this month or early July :)

http://members.iinet.net.au/~fenix1983/Files/500.jpg

I think it looks better than most of the boring crap you find in its class but then again I probably would say that :p

You get cams with that?

[Daniel]

You get cams with that?
Eh? :p

[schmenke]

Isn't there a camless engine in that chariot?

[Daniel]

Isn't there a camless engine in that chariot?
Ah I thought you meant that but wasn't sure :p

Nah it's a traditional engine with a camshaft. I don't think it's even got VVT. It's just got 4 cylinders, 8 valves, 1 camshaft, 1242 cc's and 69 Italian horsies :p What amazes me is the service intervals with this thing though....... 18,000 miles!!!!! My 504 needed new oil every 5000km and a filter ever other service :mark: That's what I call progress!

Part of me is a little annoyed that I can't get one of the new engines with no cams because of the obvious performance and economy advantages but then part of me thinks that maybe it's best to let others test the technology out first.

[schmenke]

...it's best to let others test the technology out first.

Yeah, I agree, especially with something so radical and untested in long-term use. So is the camless model available for pruchase now?

[Hondo]

I think I'd rather have a Mini-Cooper, one of the new ones.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

How much should a service cost? :\

[Daniel]

Jon, the first service for my car will be about £200. Which is a bit but that's a whole years servicing of course. How much do you pay for your GP?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Jon, the first service for my car will be about £200. Which is a bit but that's a whole years servicing of course. How much do you pay for your GP?

My first year service was about £150. Second year service was £400 :\

No going out this weekend :(

[Daniel]

Fiero, to buy a bog standard Mini with very few options would be another couple of thousand on top of what I'd have paid. It would be less fuel efficient, less spacious inside even though it's bigger and iirc more expensive to insure. Add on what I've got on my car and it would be at least £3k more than what I'm paying which is silly. My other choice was a Fiat Panda which would have been cheaper but Caroline didn't like the look of it and much preferred the 500 interior. So you now know who is boss in our household :p

[Daniel]

Sounds about right. To buy a 2 year service plan for a 500 is £700 or so iirc. I may investigate taking it to a local garage but if something does happen then Fiat can just say no to your warranty claim :mark:

[Daniel]

Yeah, I agree, especially with something so radical and untested in long-term use. So is the camless model available for pruchase now?
Not available at the moment. I think they're launching it on the Mito first around september time with just swapping the head over. The two cylinder camless engines are a brand new engine which will be launched early next year. The cylinders are designed to be modular so they could make a 2.7l v6, a 3.6l v8 or anything inbetween and of course they will share common components like valves, the hydraulic valvetrains themselves, pistons, con rods etc etc will be shared throughout the whole range rather than having different components for each different engine capacity. I think that's an incredibly intelligent way of doing things and maximising profits.

[Daniel]

Fiero, to buy a bog standard Mini with very few options would be another couple of thousand on top of what I'd have paid. It would be less fuel efficient, less spacious inside even though it's bigger and iirc more expensive to insure. Add on what I've got on my car and it would be at least £3k more than what I'm paying which is silly. My other choice was a Fiat Panda which would have been cheaper but Caroline didn't like the look of it and much preferred the 500 interior. So you now know who is boss in our household :p


Well that was wrong.

http://www.fiat.co.uk/Content/?id=2346

It's actually £548 for the Grande Punto for a 2 year 36,000 mile service plan so I guess you did pay a bit over the odds if it was just a bare service!

[Daniel]

I think I'd rather have a Mini-Cooper, one of the new ones.

Well I specced up a Mini One to the same spec as the 500 we've ordered and it came out at 18,465!!!!! Which is a whole 6490 more than a 500 of identical spec which is also a 1.4!!!!! We've paid almost £8k less for our car :mark: That's a whole other car you could buy with that money :mark:

[Mark in Oshawa]

All I know is the FIAT group and Chrysler may not rock with JD Power, but every new model or every new car is one more chance to get it right.

Furthermore, JD Power initial build quality ratings and new car surveys are fine for people who buy or lease cars for 3 years and dump them. Take a bunch of 10 plus year old cars and survey THOSE owners. I think some of you might see some changes.

My 10 year old plus Chevy got GREAT JD Power ratings according to GM at the time, but it has been a bit of a lemon for me.....

[AndyRAC]

Well I specced up a Mini One to the same spec as the 500 we've ordered and it came out at 18,465!!!!! Which is a whole 6490 more than a 500 of identical spec which is also a 1.4!!!!! We've paid almost £8k less for our car :mark: That's a whole other car you could buy with that money :mark:

I did the same with both the Cooper & Cooper S - Ouch!! Typical BMW really.
Yes, they're quite nice cars, but I'm not paying that kind of money - you can get better cars for the money they want, especially a specced up CooperS - a Focus ST!

From what I gather, FIAT are really trying to get rid of the old reputation - and seem to be succeeding, in fact I very nearly bought one, but stuck with a VAG Group car in the end. But maybe next time - the FIAT Panda 100BHP gets good reviews from a lot of the car monthly mags.

[Jag_Warrior]

All I know is the FIAT group and Chrysler may not rock with JD Power, but every new model or every new car is one more chance to get it right.

Furthermore, JD Power initial build quality ratings and new car surveys are fine for people who buy or lease cars for 3 years and dump them. Take a bunch of 10 plus year old cars and survey THOSE owners. I think some of you might see some changes.

My 10 year old plus Chevy got GREAT JD Power ratings according to GM at the time, but it has been a bit of a lemon for me.....


That's an important point, Mark. In addition to initial quality and short/mid term reliability (2-3 years), data on longer term ownership would also be telling. Annual cost of ownership is also an important consumer factor, which I noticed Daniel and Jon Brown talking about here. Consumer Reports does a very good job on longer term ownership and annual cost of ownership.

But whatever study you look at, you have to remember that they're all based on samples. My mother lives by Consumer Reports. She bought a Camry because Consumer Reports (and also J.D. Power) had the Camry rated VERY highly. So she bought one. That car had electrical problems, brake problems, the steering box leaked, the A/C eventually developed problems... more issues than I can remember. But this was a flawless Japanese car built by flawless Japanese workers within their flawless Japanese production process. I don't care what it is, every production process generates defects. In my mom's case, she happend to get one of the products with multiple defects. The Toyota Production System is one of the best in any industry. But even it generates defects.

[Rollo]

She bought a Camry because Consumer Reports (and also J.D. Power) had the Camry rated VERY highly. So she bought one. That car had electrical problems, brake problems, the steering box leaked, the A/C eventually developed problems... more issues than I can remember. But this was a flawless Japanese car built by flawless Japanese workers within their flawless Japanese production process. I don't care what it is, every production process generates defects. In my mom's case, she happend to get one of the products with multiple defects. The Toyota Production System is one of the best in any industry. But even it generates defects.

Does she live in North America? Because if she does, then the Camry came from... Georgetown, Kentucky.
http://www.toyotageorgetown.com/
It was built by American workers in an American factory.


Make crap (even if it's cute crap), with the mistaken idea that we'll buy crap, and you might end up leaving with your pockets a good bit lighter.

Not implicitly. Cars are after built to a price. I suspect that that price is set lower in America because customers demand that to be the case. Your above case is probably atypical, but still doesn't disprove my theory.

[Mark in Oshawa]

That's an important point, Mark. In addition to initial quality and short/mid term reliability (2-3 years), data on longer term ownership would also be telling. Annual cost of ownership is also an important consumer factor, which I noticed Daniel and Jon Brown talking about here. Consumer Reports does a very good job on longer term ownership and annual cost of ownership.

But whatever study you look at, you have to remember that they're all based on samples. My mother lives by Consumer Reports. She bought a Camry because Consumer Reports (and also J.D. Power) had the Camry rated VERY highly. So she bought one. That car had electrical problems, brake problems, the steering box leaked, the A/C eventually developed problems... more issues than I can remember. But this was a flawless Japanese car built by flawless Japanese workers within their flawless Japanese production process. I don't care what it is, every production process generates defects. In my mom's case, she happend to get one of the products with multiple defects. The Toyota Production System is one of the best in any industry. But even it generates defects.

Your mom should read something besides Consumer Reports I guess, and get out some. lol

That said, that Toyota is a highly rated car no matter what book or report that covers the industry says. She got a bad one. We can all buy what we think is a great product and get the one that was built by the guys getting ready to go home and get drunk on Super Bowl weekend.


My feelings though on the domestic auto industry have changed a LOT in the last 10 years. I live in a GM town, (building Impala's and Camaro's now) and ?I always had imports because I always was buying used and I liked the smaller cars. I own a Chev Lumina LTZ now because it was a deal I couldn't turn down, not for any patriotic reasons.

That said, I do believe the domestic manufacturers in North America are paying for sins they no longer commit. Around 1995 their build quality was going up, and JD Power surveys confirmed a lot of this. The products they gave us were and are getting better. What killed GM and Chrysler to an extent is they were building a product based on a $2 to $2.50 US gallon of gas and the market was wanting it. They were running the pickup plant here in Oshawa FLAT out for the last decade until the gas prices went up and killed the demand for full sized pickups in a heartbeat.

The domestic automakers were chasing their traditional market. Americans and Canadians who liked larger vehicles. When the gas prices made even those stalwart car buyers take notice, they had no answer. Is that poor planning? Yes and no. Toyota always was catering to the people who value effeicinecy and handling over luxury and power, but they branched up into this market as well. Ditto Nissan, Mazda and Honda. The market the import people were catering too were the people not receptive to the large SUV owner profile. People like me.

Still doesn't change the fact that every car maker was going for niches and the Japanese cornered it pretty handily on small cars, efficient mid size cars and yes, hybrids. Take note tho, the Prius is not a huge money maker for Toyota. I suspect no one is going to make a ton of money making them since of the high cost of some of the materials. The profit margins are thinner if you want to sell the car at a price people will pay.

The Domestic automakers, the Big 3 were catering to their customers, but with the inflexability of the labor unions, they were never going to be able to build small cars with any real profit margin, and they decided I think to concentrate on what they could make money making. Now the economy has tanked and fuel prices are yo yoing, and GM and Chrysler are screwed. Still doesn't change the fact they actually are building some of the best cars they have ever built.

I think Ford has positioned itself better product wise, but THAT is a factor of the fact they have that large European division to pass small car technology to them with. The Fusion is a top of the line sedan from all accounts, and their hybrid rivals the Prius. It CAN be done over here, it just took this much pain to sweep out the dead wood in GM and Chrysler.

I am optimistic both will find their place in the marketplace. I am really hoping Fiat can do something with Chrysler. I know that the Germans added a lot of new ideas to Chrysler and I was ticked when they sold it off, but again, that was more because they didn't see a way out they wanted to deal with. It had little to do with the quality of design.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I've just realised that the service on my two year old Fiat cost more than the service for my dads Mk2 Jaguar :\

[Jag_Warrior]

Does she live in North America? Because if she does, then the Camry came from... Georgetown, Kentucky.
http://www.toyotageorgetown.com/
It was built by American workers in an American factory.


Yes, she lives in North America. And as I said, the car was built in Japan, that according to the VIN plate. Simply looking at the VIN tells where a car was produced. If the VIN starts wth a "J", then the car was produced in Japan - and hers did. I don't know when Georgetown started producing Camrys (late 80's, I suppose), but even now, not all Camrys sold in the U.S. come from there.



Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=644649#post644649)
Make crap (even if it's cute crap), with the mistaken idea that we'll buy crap, and you might end up leaving with your pockets a good bit lighter.



Not implicitly. Cars are after built to a price. I suspect that that price is set lower in America because customers demand that to be the case. Your above case is probably atypical, but still doesn't disprove my theory.

Whether it's GM, Chrysler, FIAT, Hyundai, Jaguar or Ferrari, all automotive OEM's employ some form of VA/VE (value analysis/value engineering). When I think of "inexpensive", I don't attach the same negative connotations as when I hear the word "cheap". What VA/VE engineers do is work within and without the OEM organization to determine if the (assembled) cost of the automobile can meet or exceed goals set at a higher level of the organization. VA/VE engineers work to determine what materials can be acquired for and what the cost of the production/assembly process will be if this component is used versus that component. And yes, that changes from market to market. I'm not familiar with the term "after build". One might revise the materials or the production process to meet a new stated cost goal in one market versus another. But prices are generally set based on what a particular market will bare. And if one could not sell a car for at least the production cost, that particular car would either be revised or it wouldn't be sold in that market. That's why Mazda Miatas were once sold for nearly $30,000 here, when the cost of production was less than half that.

What I'm saying is that "cheap" implies, to me, a certain lack of quality, with respect to mechanicals, or maybe just fit & finish. Nissan makes a car called the Versa. AFAIK, it's a sub $11K car - very inexpensive for this market. I had to rent one of these things when I had my car serviced. No one over 6' should think about driving one for a long period. But there was nothing "cheap" about it. The fit & finish was as good as any car less than $25K. From what I could see, the cost/price of the car was within sight of the perceived value. So... a consumer would probably use a car like that as a benchmark when shopping for a car in that price range. It doesn't matter if it's the U.S., the UK or India. The car has to be competitive from a price and quality standpoint with other automobiles in the same market.

All that to say... if FIAT, or any other OEM for that matter, thinks that simply hitting a price point will make them successful here, that ride back home might be a long one. That's what I meant when I said that just offering a "piece of crap" (low quality) for a low price will do nothing but produce future tears. If a Japanese doesn't cut their throat, then a Korean probably will.

[Jag_Warrior]

Your mom should read something besides Consumer Reports I guess, and get out some. lol

That said, that Toyota is a highly rated car no matter what book or report that covers the industry says. She got a bad one. We can all buy what we think is a great product and get the one that was built by the guys getting ready to go home and get drunk on Super Bowl weekend.


Yep, that was my point. Any and every production process generates defects. The best ones just produce fewer defects than the worst ones. But like mom's Camry, all it takes is a couple of major defects for that car to be considered defective. She might have gotten the only (truly) defective Camry that was produced that day or that month.

But I think she'll stick with Consumer Reports. They tend to nail it pretty well. ;)



I am optimistic both will find their place in the marketplace. I am really hoping Fiat can do something with Chrysler. I know that the Germans added a lot of new ideas to Chrysler and I was ticked when they sold it off, but again, that was more because they didn't see a way out they wanted to deal with. It had little to do with the quality of design.

The Germans (the boots on the ground at Auburn Hills) hated dealing with the Americans and the Americans there hated them right back. Those two cultures NEVER played well together. When Dieter Zetsche was there, he was a strong enough manager that he was able to keep the peace. He was really making a difference, or so I thought. But when he left for Germany to run Daimler, his seat was still warm and it soon felt like WWII was being fought all over again. The Crossfire was about the closest that the Germans came to giving Chrysler anything meaningful from the Mercedes line - and it wasn't much. A few tidbits in engines and transmissions here or there, but nothing huge. They did nothing to speak of for Jeep. Daimler (and Chrysler) lied about the original transaction and they did nothing to get in tune with the market. And they wasted tons of money by forcing Chrysler to use different platforms, so that there wouldn't be any kissing of cousins. IMO, the Daimler-Chrysler fiasco is an example of how not to do an auto company merger.

I'm not cheering for the FIAT/Chrysler deal to fall on its face. I still have lots of pals that work for Chrysler - I don't want them to lose everything (or what little they have left). But I feel like I've heard this song before. Put me down for "I'll believe it when I see it."

[Tazio]

I'm not cheering for the FIAT/Chrysler deal to fall on its face. I still have lots of pals that work for Chrysler - I don't want them to lose everything (or what little they have left). But I feel like I've heard this song before. Put me down for "I'll believe it when I see it." Jag what you say makes a lot of sense. When I bought my '84 ALFA I happened to discover it garaged at a house I was giving a remodeling estimate. Ends up this guy did not have it for sale but he was resigned to selling it because his new Latino wife didn't want it around to remind him of the fun he had in it with his previous wife. ALFA spiders have some inherent problems. They never got the syncro’s perfected. The motor mounts were
Constantly needing to be replaced and the dry sump two stage aluminum oil system pans were too close to the road. The skid plate helped but just brought the whole carriage closer to the ground. But I digress. The fully loaded model was a built for California Car. Which simply meant at that time the 10-1 compression ratio was highly questionable, (due to the catalytic converter/exhaust system). The seller gave me service records longer than the Old Testament, including the original window sticker just under $17,000.oo. It took a little looking but I found the best Alfa Mechanic is S.D. County. Not only did he do everything right his shop was no more expensive than the other domestic shops, and much lower than a domestic dealerships. Foreign Auto Menders in Poway Ca. He was very impressed with the quality, and said most ALFA's were trashed by the time customers would seek repair. Proper maintenance is critical. I remember being over at the shop and a Maserati rep was talking to him. Saying how next year (pick a year) Alfa is coming back to the States. His remark to me was exactly your remark at the end of your post "I'll believe it when I see it.
This brings me to my point. This is a "safer" way for FIAT to get back into The US. Because it's would be much more to their advantage to wait until everyone folds up their tent that do, and swoop in! But in this economy their competition, like you said will probably get them nicked by Asian products with a better VA/VE.
BTW that ALFA was a hell of a lot more fun to drive than most people under 6’0” imagine! ;)
:up:

[Rollo]

This is quite an aside now:


If the VIN starts wth a "J", then the car was produced in Japan - and hers did. I don't know when Georgetown started producing Camrys (late 80's, I suppose), but even now, not all Camrys sold in the U.S. come from there.

I find this in the Gregory's Manual for the Camry XV30; 2001–2006:

J tells you that the company is Japanese.
T tells you that it's a Toyota
2 tells you that it's a Passenger Car

The next four tell you: Line, Series, Body Type ,Engine, Restraint.
The ninth is a check digit
The tenth is the year with A's being 1980 & 2006.

The eleventh character tells you where it's come from:
A=Altona, C=Ontario, T=Toyota (city) 1980-1990 T=Tsutsumi 1990-date, U=Georgetown, Z=Fremont.
Twelve through to eighteen are Sequential Production Numbers

whew!


One might revise the materials or the production process to meet a new stated cost goal in one market versus another. But prices are generally set based on what a particular market will bare. And if one could not sell a car for at least the production cost, that particular car would either be revised or it wouldn't be sold in that market.

This is the very essense of how well FIAT/Chrysler will do, is it not? If we take the example of the Camry above (using USD prices) we find that for a 2.5L 4cyl 6-Speed Auto:

In the US: $20,445
In Oz: $24,535 (A$29,990)
In Japan: $37,856 (¥3.7m)

Even if you were to take into account things like taxation on the cars themselves, in Japan the car is pitched at a higher market and as such will more than likely be built to a better standard accordingly.

[Jag_Warrior]

This brings me to my point. This is a "safer" way for FIAT to get back into The US. Because it's would be much more to their advantage to wait until everyone folds up their tent that do, and swoop in! But in this economy their competition, like you said will probably get them nicked by Asian products with a better VA/VE.

I'm sorry that it might have come off initially like I wanted FIAT to fail here. I do not want FIAT or Chrysler to fail. I'm a car guy. I don't want any car company to fail. If a bank fails, oh well. But whenever a car company fails, a kitten dies in Heaven. :( Heck, who knows, I might someday end up working on one of their programs. But I kept hearing about FIAT technology, FIAT technology, FIAT technology on the news. There's no doubt that Chrysler is behind on the technology front (what's this I hear about some of the new electric Teslas catching fire?! :eek: ). And Chrysler needs a good small car like they need oxygen (and money). But I'm in different auto assembly plants about once a month. Chrysler needs someone to come in and show them how to build reliable, quality cars. What is technology going to do if your process can't assemble it reliably? And if the one who is giving you the technology has its own reliability issues, yeah, I see that as a potential problem. Some of Chrysler's processes are weak and there is a complete lack of consistency and discipline in many of their plants. I think some want to believe that it has something to do with American workers, American owners, American this or American that. A truly robust process doesn't know if the worker or owner is an American, a Canadian, a Japanese, an Englishman or a Bulgarian. And if your process cannot account for differences in work habits or size or whatever, you do not have a robust process. The Hondas built in Marysville, OH (by Americans) have comparable PPM's (or PP100 in J.D. Power speak) to the ones built by Japanese workers in Japan. Both Toyota and Honda have very solid, almost universal processes (from concept to design to assembly). And within ALL Toyota plants there's a cluture that's almost cult like.

So, I wish FIAT the best of luck with Chrysler. I don't know why the data from France and the UK suggest there are customer satisfaction or reliabilty issues, but I hope they address the issues and get it right once they get here. And uh... once they get here and maybe need some hired guns... I do speak Italian. Have laptop, do travel. ;)

BTW, here's an Alfa that I've liked since I first saw it.
http://www.swotti.com/tmp/swotti/cacheYWXMYSBYB21LBYBICMVYYQ==QXV0B21VDGLVBI1DYXJZ/imgalfa%20romeo%20brera1.jpg

[Jag_Warrior]

This is quite an aside now:

I find this in the Gregory's Manual for the Camry XV30; 2001–2006:

J tells you that the company is Japanese.
T tells you that it's a Toyota
2 tells you that it's a Passenger Car

The next four tell you: Line, Series, Body Type ,Engine, Restraint.
The ninth is a check digit
The tenth is the year with A's being 1980 & 2006.

The eleventh character tells you where it's come from:
A=Altona, C=Ontario, T=Toyota (city) 1980-1990 T=Tsutsumi 1990-date, U=Georgetown, Z=Fremont.
Twelve through to eighteen are Sequential Production Numbers

whew!


What does your find tell you about these two Camrys?
VIN JT2BG22K3V0079498
VIN 4T1BG22K6XU875872
http://www.autotrader.com/dealers/inview/index.jsp?dealership_view_name=nu2uautosalesllc&dealer_id=63996095&search_type=&make=&model=&end_year=&start_year=&max_price=&min_price=&sort_type=make_modelASC&num_records=75

This might help more than what you have:

World Manufacturer’s Identification (WMI)
The first character in the WMI sequence represents the country where the vehicle was manufactured. Countries like the United States (1 or 4), Canada (2) and Mexico (3) are represented by numbers while other countries such as Germany (W), Italy (Z) and Japan (J) are represented by letters.


My mother's car was a 1988 Camry SE or LE (I don't recall which), bought by her in 1990, built in the latter part of 1987 as a MY1988. It was built, as I already stated, in Japan. That information was given to me by the local Toyota dealer some 17 or 18 years ago - and I would say that he knew what he was talking about. We got to know each other very well during the time my mother owned this P.O.S. car. Unfortunately, when the warranty ran out, our relationship became less friendly on my part. :vader:



Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=646328#post646328)

One might revise the materials or the production process to meet a new stated cost goal in one market versus another. But prices are generally set based on what a particular market will bare. And if one could not sell a car for at least the production cost, that particular car would either be revised or it wouldn't be sold in that market.




This is the very essense of how well FIAT/Chrysler will do, is it not? If we take the example of the Camry above (using USD prices) we find that for a 2.5L 4cyl 6-Speed Auto:

In the US: $20,445
In Oz: $24,535 (A$29,990)
In Japan: $37,856 (¥3.7m)

Even if you were to take into account things like taxation on the cars themselves, in Japan the car is pitched at a higher market and as such will more than likely be built to a better standard accordingly.

Built to a better standard? I'd have to know more about how you're defining "a better standard". If you mean higher cost materials or different options, yes, that's quite possible. I'd be interested to know what the available options are from country to country. There is only one Toyota Production System though - it really doesn't matter where the plant is located. In Toyota's case, it might just mean the profit margins are higher on Camrys sold in Japan than in the U.S. - I don't know. Maybe that's why Honda exports Accords back to Japan from the U.S. In the case of FIAT, I honestly cannot say what their plans may be for the U.S. market. But FIAT will have to offer expected options and expected reliability relative to others in their segment, in order to remain competitive with every other OEM that sells here.

Since I believe we've now established that U.S. Camrys are built in both Japan and the U.S., and Honda Accords built in the U.S. have been exported back to Japan since 1988, I would bring this discussion back to quality and reliability, as they influence customer satisfaction more than anything else. Relative to other cars sold in this market, Chryslers tend to get poor quality ratings. You mentioned that you thought that was related to American build quality or expectations, or something along those lines? Yet, as I pointed out, Buick is as highly rated here as the best of the Japanese and European marques. And I suspect that sort of relative customer experience is what has bitten FIAT in the UK and France. They will need to correct that when they bring their own cars here, and/or they'll need to really work with Chrysler to turn the domestic operations around. The cheapest (let's call it "least expensive", OK?) car in the world still has to meet customer expectations.

[Malbec]

yea f____ JD Powers they once rated America West Airlines on top what a joke.

I have owned many Fiat 124s and Lancia Scorpions and love them all. If you can't handle the enthuasiam then buy that German low RPM stuff and you can drive one car in your lifetime. 8000 rpm in a light 4 banger gets it.
especially when you add a turbo.

Fousto I don't agree with many of your posts but I can't fault a single word in that post.

And lets not forget that FIAT also includes Ferrari and Maserati.

Plus they have expertise in a few things Chrysler might be interested in like turning a bloated loss-making company into a leaner profitable one, or building class leading small capacity clean efficient engines and designing desirable retro cars like the Fiat 500 for not that much money.

[Malbec]

And I suspect that sort of relative customer experience is what has bitten FIAT in the UK and France. They will need to correct that when they bring their own cars here, and/or they'll need to really work with Chrysler to turn the domestic operations around. The cheapest (let's call it "least expensive", OK?) car in the world still has to meet customer expectations.

Thats a good point but things have changed recently.

About 5 years ago I thought FIAT was finished when every Italian I talked to for advice about getting a new car said "anything that isn't Italian". Over the past few years FIAT group quality has taken very clear steps forward and now I hear the opposite from my Italian friends who recommend FIAT 500s or Alfas or some Lancias heartily.

Its that experience in turning a company around that I believe Chrysler would profit most from, and of course they'd also have access to FIAT's dealer network both in Europe and South America, just as FIAT would have access to Chryslers in North America.

[Malbec]

Well I specced up a Mini One to the same spec as the 500 we've ordered and it came out at 18,465!!!!! Which is a whole 6490 more than a 500 of identical spec which is also a 1.4!!!!! We've paid almost £8k less for our car :mark: That's a whole other car you could buy with that money :mark:

On top of that Minis are far too common, at least where I live. I can see three of them parked outside my flat right now whereas FIAT 500s are less common and therefore more exclusive, at least right now.

Of course where Fiero comes from Minis might be rare enough so that might not be a problem but in Europe I think the sheer cost of the Mini and its ubiquity count against it.

Also, you can buy a base Mini if you want but the residuals aren't great if you do....

[Malbec]

The Germans (the boots on the ground at Auburn Hills) hated dealing with the Americans and the Americans there hated them right back. Those two cultures NEVER played well together. A few tidbits in engines and transmissions here or there, but nothing huge. They did nothing to speak of for Jeep. Daimler (and Chrysler) lied about the original transaction and they did nothing to get in tune with the market. And they wasted tons of money by forcing Chrysler to use different platforms, so that there wouldn't be any kissing of cousins. IMO, the Daimler-Chrysler fiasco is an example of how not to do an auto company merger.

Hmmmm, substitute 'BMW' for 'Daimler' and 'Rover' for 'Chrysler' and 'British' for 'American' and you've just about summarised what went wrong at Rover....

[Jag_Warrior]

And lets not forget that FIAT also includes Ferrari and Maserati.

There are many FIATs. There's the FIAT car brand. There's FIAT Group Automobiles. And then there is the parent corporation: FIAT Group SpA. FIAT Group SpA includes 100% of Maserati and about 85% of Ferrari. But FIAT Group Automobiles has nothing to do with either Ferrari or Maserati, other than being under the same parent. Well, I take that back. Maserati and Alfa are now sharing components, platforms and networks. And at least in North America, Maserati and Ferrari do still share dealers. But Ferrari resisted sharing anything with Maserati, and that's why Montezemolo separated them several years ago.



Plus they have expertise in a few things Chrysler might be interested in like turning a bloated loss-making company into a leaner profitable one, or building class leading small capacity clean efficient engines and designing desirable retro cars like the Fiat 500 for not that much money.

As I have read, one of the reasons that the U.S. government supported the sale to FIAT (for basically no money) was because there are only two men who have recently turned automotive companies around: Carlos Ghosn and Sergio Marchionne. Renault/Nissan had no interest in Chrysler and so FIAT Group was the best option.

The customer satisfaction data that I found does not say that FIAT cannot turn Chrysler around. It does not say that they have not made progress. At least financially, they've made incredible progress. But the data does suggest that the FIAT brand continues to have issues, as far as its customers are concerned in the two countries named.

Data is what it is.

[Daniel]

On top of that Minis are far too common, at least where I live. I can see three of them parked outside my flat right now whereas FIAT 500s are less common and therefore more exclusive, at least right now.

I was surprised while in London today not to see more 500s. Tonnes of Minis though :mark:

[Rollo]

I was surprised while in London today not to see more 500s. Tonnes of Minis though :mark:

Two things play against the Fiat. One is the waiting list (of which you're a victim), the other is a value for money issue.

A new Fiat 500 will set you back £9700, whereas it's sister the Ford Ka 2, will only cost £7995. For 300 quid more than a 500, you could get either a Corsa D, a Fiesta 7, or a Honda Jazz, heck even the Yaris only costs £8805.

The MINI One has the easiest price in the world to remember... £12345 :D 12345? That's the kind of code an idiot would have on his luggage!

[Daniel]

A 1.2 500 pop is £8300 Rollo and a Ka is just a 500 made ugly. The other cars you list are either just uninspiring as well :mark: 500 residuals are fantastic anyway which is another reason why I went for one.

[Easy Drifter]

Suggest everyone go to casc.on.ca/forums. Then go to the Road Racing section and scroll down to the 2010 NASCAR thread by Slucas. That is Scott Lucas of URANUS RACING fame. Their theme song was "Don't leave me loose wheel."
You just have to see the picture of the 2010 NASCAR Dodge that Scott has somehow obtained.

[Tazio]

The MINI One has the easiest price in the world to remember... £12345 12345? That's the kind of code an idiot would have on his luggage! Definately a cult classic :p :




qEZxgEgG5Cg&feature=related


"May the scwartz be with you" :)

[Rollo]

Old picture is old... and done better:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/08/fiat-500-giannini-01.jpg

[Easy Drifter]

Ah but Rollo the car in your picture does not say 'Dodge Charger.' :D

[Daniel]

Ah but Rollo the car in your picture does not say 'Dodge Charger.' :D
Yeah but the one in your picture is a Fiat 600 :p

[Daniel]

BTW, here's an Alfa that I've liked since I first saw it.
http://www.swotti.com/tmp/swotti/cacheYWXMYSBYB21LBYBICMVYYQ==QXV0B21VDGLVBI1DYXJZ/imgalfa%20romeo%20brera1.jpg

Funny thing is that while the Brera does look nice it's not a very good car to drive. It's heavy and it has a GM based V6 which isn't all that great even though Alfa have put their own heads on it.