Crisis at McLaren

[Sonic]

How long before McLaren bring out a B spec or dump the 24 all together? This track is showing the VERY worst of it. No downforce, grip, stability. Just dreadfull.

[Knock-on]

Big upgrade for Silverstone and we'll find out then.

[Sonic]

Does anyone know if its big enough of an upgrade to gain the title B spec?

I say throw the 'monkeys at the back' out, eh Lewis?

[Knock-on]

Does anyone know if its big enough of an upgrade to gain the title B spec?

I don't know the specifics but only it's a significant upgrade.

[Hawkmoon]

I say throw the 'monkeys at the back' out, eh Lewis?

:rotflmao:

I think the question to be asked is why McLaren haven't been able to improve the car. Considering where they were in Australia they've preety much stayed the same, which has is seeing them go backwards.

Maybe the car is just one of those cars that is destined to be crap no matter what they do to it.

[Sonic]

There was something in Autosport earlier in the year where a rival designer suggested he "knew" what was wrong with the design of the McLaren and that it related to something from the late 1990's cars. The report also seemed to suggest that reworking the car wouldn't improve things and the only solution was a complete redesign.

[jens]

Maybe the car is just one of those cars that is destined to be crap no matter what they do to it.

Pretty much so, the car seems fundamentally flawed. It was visible already during winter testing as whatever solutions they tried, they always looked lacklustre. But to McLaren's praise it can be said that they haven't been as bad as they seemed in winter - 5th in WCC after all and at GP's have finished in Top4 for twice (although one of those results was DQ'd).

[christophulus]

I think they have improved, but it's similar to polishing a turd. It was awful to start with and is now just very bad, but I think this season will be written off pretty quickly if this major upgrade doesn't pay off.

They'd best hope Mercedes stick by them or there could be big trouble ahead.

[Sonic]

Hamilton gave the first indication that he's not thinking about this year anymore in the BBC interview.

[markabilly]

There was something in Autosport earlier in the year where a rival designer suggested he "knew" what was wrong with the design of the McLaren and that it related to something from the late 1990's cars. The report also seemed to suggest that reworking the car wouldn't improve things and the only solution was a complete redesign.

There is nothing wrong with the car that Alonso nor Ryan could not fix.....but not to worry, they still got "lewiedarat"

[ioan]

I say throw the 'monkeys at the back' out, eh Lewis?

:up:
Totally agree! We don't need such moving chicanes! :D

[Caroline]

They'd best hope Mercedes stick by them or there could be big trouble ahead.

I think they have to - Mercedes own a 40% share of Mclaren. It would be a messy disentangling.

McLaren really are in a bad place at the moment.

[woody2goody]

Does anyone else think McLaren could end up at the very back by the end of the race tomorrow?

Force India have been OK, and there's no way the Toro Rosso's that bad.

[driveace]

Maybe Vetel OR Alonso could give better feedback or sort it out ,or drive the bloo** thing quicker !
BUT things dont look good,and when Lewis is down he dont try!

[Bradley]

:rotflmao:

I think the question to be asked is why McLaren haven't been able to improve the car. Considering where they were in Australia they've preety much stayed the same, which has is seeing them go backwards.

Maybe the car is just one of those cars that is destined to be crap no matter what they do to it.

Or maybe they just don't have drivers able to give input to help improving the car.

[Knock-on]

Maybe Vetel OR Alonso could give better feedback or sort it out ,or drive the bloo** thing quicker !
BUT things dont look good,and when Lewis is down he dont try!

You didn't watch qualifying then?

He was pushing too hard and wrung it's neck.

OK, he could have probably got into Q2 with a more conservative drive but that's not his way.

If you look at Alonso in the first half of lasy year, it was exactly the same.

Still, nice to see so many writing him off. There may well be a bit of egg on face next year :D

Still, nice to see so many writing him off. There may well be a bit of egg on face next year :D

What about this "major upgrade" that's coming for Silverstone? Don't tell me you've lost faith in Woking being able to deliver?

Mind you, you have been telling us that every change introduced to the MP4/24 was going to be the one...and they haven't.

Funny how the MP4/24 is a complete dog when it's the first car post Newey design concept, with no Coughlan and no live-feed info from a rival to cheat from.

Coincidental, I'm sure.

[ioan]

Looks like after the rule changes the 780 pages Ferrari file can't help them anymore. :D

[ioan]

Still, nice to see so many writing him off. There may well be a bit of egg on face next year :D

Maybe if they manage to steal the technical dossier from Force India they will be able to improve on this year's form! :rotflmao:

[christophulus]

Just watching some onboard footage from the McLaren today and the car is an absolute dog. I can't see how they're going to come up with some magic fix for it, it's hopeless. Maybe it's worth firing out a B-spec car, regardless of how late, to see if they can figure out how to fix it for next year.

[DexDexter]

Just watching some onboard footage from the McLaren today and the car is an absolute dog. I can't see how they're going to come up with some magic fix for it, it's hopeless. Maybe it's worth firing out a B-spec car, regardless of how late, to see if they can figure out how to fix it for next year.

This has happened to them before, for some reason they design a bad car in every three or four years, usually followed by a good car. If we look at history, in 2003 they had a good "old" car, 2004 a bad one, 2005 quick but fragile, 2006 bad, 2007-2008 a good one and now a very bad one again....

[wedge]

This has happened to them before, for some reason they design a bad car in every three or four years, usually followed by a good car. If we look at history, in 2003 they had a good "old" car, 2004 a bad one, 2005 quick but fragile, 2006 bad, 2007-2008 a good one and now a very bad one again....

Those cars were fragile all round: the engine broke, suspension broke, heat shield was useless, wing fell off.

Engine and gearbox is now good reliability, even mechanical grip seems good judging by Monaco but car not producing enough downforce this year.

[ioan]

...2007-2008 a good one and now a very bad one again....

2007-2008 wasn't designed by them, not entirely.

[markabilly]

2007-2008 wasn't designed by them, not entirely.

and they had Ryan and Alonso to help them read the print....

wonder how the computer security is over there at Brawn....I hear they use some special anti-copy paper over there..... :confused:

[yodasarmpit]

Looks like after the rule changes the 780 pages Ferrari file can't help them anymore. :D


Maybe if they manage to steal the technical dossier from Force India they will be able to improve on this year's form! :rotflmao:


2007-2008 wasn't designed by them, not entirely.

Wow, time to let it go already :)

[ioan]

Wow, time to let it go already :)

Truth is hard to digest! :laugh:
Be a man, stand up and take it on the chin.

[yodasarmpit]

Truth is hard to digest! :laugh:
Be a man, stand up and take it on the chin.

Not really, I stood by them at the time but became disillusioned with McLaren and Hamilton earlier this year. So no tears lost here.

It just gets boring watching you post the same crap over and over again.

Often I wonder if you just post this crap because you are a troll looking for a reaction, then again it may actually be your own opinion, in which case I have to question your age and whether your mum knows you stay up late on the internet.

[Bagwan]

Not really, I stood by them at the time but became disillusioned with McLaren and Hamilton earlier this year. So no tears lost here.

It just gets boring watching you post the same crap over and over again.

Often I wonder if you just post this crap because you are a troll looking for a reaction, then again it may actually be your own opinion, in which case I have to question your age and whether your mum knows you stay up late on the internet.

Will you be responding to Markabilly's posts with the same fervour ?

Get back to the thread .

Lewis just lost his engineer . That's the guy who takes his feedback during the race , and coordinates his movements .
This is the consequence of throwing Patsy under the bus .

[yodasarmpit]

Will you be responding to Markabilly's posts with the same fervour ?

Not particularly, whilst I don't always agree with Markabilly's posts, I do find him amusing :)

[ioan]

Often I wonder if you just post this crap because you are a troll looking for a reaction, then again it may actually be your own opinion, in which case I have to question your age and whether your mum knows you stay up late on the internet.

After reading this BS I bet I'm much older than you! :laugh:

[Bagwan]

Not particularly, whilst I don't always agree with Markabilly's posts, I do find him amusing :)

You are bored by Ioan and amused by Markabilly .
That's lovely .
Now that we've cleared that up , can you see fit to let us all talk about F1 , and stop the pissing and moaning about other posters ? Do you think that would be OK with you ?

[Bagwan]

After reading this BS I bet I'm much older than you! :laugh:

Hey , cut that out !

Let's talk about racing .

[yodasarmpit]

You are bored by Ioan and amused by Markabilly .
That's lovely .
Now that we've cleared that up , can you see fit to let us all talk about F1 , and stop the pissing and moaning about other posters ? Do you think that would be OK with you ?

My deepest apologies to you Bagwan, for disrupting this thread.

I just hope others follow your suggestion of discussing F1 rather than spouting rubbish, we did have a quiet spell, however that is evidently over now.

[Bagwan]

I think , actually , that the "crisis" , is over at McLaren .

They are starting to talk about next year .

Granted , though , who knows whether next year will come ?

[yodasarmpit]

I think , actually , that the "crisis" , is over at McLaren .

They are starting to talk about next year .

Granted , though , who knows whether next year will come ?
Realistically, there is nothing of this season left for them.
Maybe it's time to concentrate on developing next years car.

[christophulus]

Realistically, there is nothing of this season left for them.
Maybe it's time to concentrate on developing next years car.

Once the technical regulations are sorted. And they decide whether they're under a budget cap or not. And who's to say that'll help them out? BMW made a mess of their new car.

I see trouble ahead. They're poor on track and not so great off it. I hope I'm wrong and this is a bit of a transition year, post-Dennis. Not because I'm a fan but because we need more strong teams in F1, not fewer.

[Bagwan]

My deepest apologies to you Bagwan, for disrupting this thread.

I just hope others follow your suggestion of discussing F1 rather than spouting rubbish, we did have a quiet spell, however that is evidently over now.

OK , so here's where I use your comment and relate it to the thread topic .

You apologise to me , and then heap blame on others , just like Lewis .

Don't just apologise to me . Do it to the whole forum if you want to do it . I'm just the guy who spoke up .

Don't say it was quiet recently , alluding obviously to Ioan's ban , making it seem that he is the reason you can't control yourself .
Perhaps because you think there are others who made the same derisive comments during his absence , that it's OK to do the same because you have backers on the board .

I will not discuss this further , unless you wish to do it off the board .

[yodasarmpit]

OK , so here's where I use your comment and relate it to the thread topic .

You apologise to me , and then heap blame on others , just like Lewis .

Don't just apologise to me . Do it to the whole forum if you want to do it . I'm just the guy who spoke up .

Don't say it was quiet recently , alluding obviously to Ioan's ban , making it seem that he is the reason you can't control yourself .
Perhaps because you think there are others who made the same derisive comments during his absence , that it's OK to do the same because you have backers on the board .

I will not discuss this further , unless you wish to do it off the board .
You make a fair point, and I will take this off board as to no longer disrupt this thread with off topic discussions.

[ArrowsFA1]

I see trouble ahead. They're poor on track and not so great off it. I hope I'm wrong and this is a bit of a transition year, post-Dennis. Not because I'm a fan but because we need more strong teams in F1, not fewer.
It's not just McLaren suffering. Ferrari, BMW and Renault haven't been able to reach the highs they've experienced in recent times. As far as I'm concerned it's refreshing to see the likes of Brawn and Red Bull heading the field.

[christophulus]

It's not just McLaren suffering. Ferrari, BMW and Renault haven't been able to reach the highs they've experienced in recent times. As far as I'm concerned it's refreshing to see the likes of Brawn and Red Bull heading the field.

You're right. I've been thinking about this and all of the "old" teams have made a mess of this year - McLaren, Ferrari, Renault, BMW. Has their previous dominance been due to tons of cash rather than intelligent design and ingenuity? The result of design/engineering departments who are so used to shaving grams off a mirror and endlessly refining that they're lost when it comes to building a car from scratch?

Or an over-reliance on complex CAD and wind tunnels, data from which may not give the same result on track? And before someone points out Honda/Brawn's cash reserves, they had two years of crap cars caused by faulty wind tunnel data. If they've fixed it now and the other teams are going to have to go through the same thing they're in trouble.

[DexDexter]

Those cars were fragile all round: the engine broke, suspension broke, heat shield was useless, wing fell off.

Engine and gearbox is now good reliability, even mechanical grip seems good judging by Monaco but car not producing enough downforce this year.

True, in 2005 they lost the championship cause the car broke up so many times.

[markabilly]

Will you be responding to Markabilly's posts with the same fervour ?

.


no, he knows it is water off a duck back.....to paraphrase Bernie from a few years ago when the FOTA was trying to challenge him, "their hands aren't big to hold my balls........"

[Sonic]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75947

LMOA

Very gallant of you!

[SGWilko]

What about this "major upgrade" that's coming for Silverstone? Don't tell me you've lost faith in Woking being able to deliver?

Mind you, you have been telling us that every change introduced to the MP4/24 was going to be the one...and they haven't.

Funny how the MP4/24 is a complete dog when it's the first car post Newey design concept, with no Coughlan and no live-feed info from a rival to cheat from.

Coincidental, I'm sure.

I understood McLaren nicked the blueprints for Ferrari's KERS system - it is apparently hanging on the Techology Centre's toilet walls, and used only after a 'number two'...... :laugh: ;)

[SGWilko]

You are bored by Ioan and amused by Markabilly .
That's lovely .
Now that we've cleared that up , can you see fit to let us all talk about F1 , and stop the pissing and moaning about other posters ? Do you think that would be OK with you ?

And you are urinating and moaning in your post quoted above because???

[ioan]

Looks like someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed! :laugh:

[tintop]

Wow, time to let it go already :)

So tiresome, I enjoyed the respite.

[Bagwan]

And you are urinating and moaning in your post quoted above because???

How about you and Henners try talking about F1 ?

And , have a nice day .

[SGWilko]

How about you and Henners try talking about F1 ?

And , have a nice day .

Touche....

[ioan]

Yeah and Ferrari thought they were clever when they stole a CAD drawing titled 'KERS Assembly drawing' from Mclaren HQ... Unfortunately it transpires there was a typing error in Woking and it turned out to be smoke machine from their pre season party... Kimi was not amused ;)

Kimi is only amused by good jokes, and yours is just a bad try.

[ioan]

I shall take your advice Bagwan, although firstly I really should look it up :p

Sometimes when people don't agree with you, you just have to take it on the chin... Try not to take everything so seriously bro, as I have found out many times in my life because it only ends up making you look silly.. ;)

Alot of people post stuff on here just to get a reaction, but its also fun responding and quite often making them look ridiculous...Try it you might enjoy it

Stay Cool and have a nice day.. :s mokin:

Are YOU trying to give lessons about how not to look silly?!
First you should try to manage that for yourself and that bother with people who bring a lot value to this forum.

Or maybe you were just trying to look smart?! :rolleyes:

[Sleeper]

2007-2008 wasn't designed by them, not entirely.
Majority of design for 07 was done in 2006, before Coughlan had any contact with Stepney. Your smart enough to know that ioan, stop skewing the facts to fit your fantasy.

[Sleeper]

Will you be responding to Markabilly's posts with the same fervour ?

Get back to the thread .

Lewis just lost his engineer . That's the guy who takes his feedback during the race , and coordinates his movements .
This is the consequence of throwing Patsy under the bus .
David Ryan was the Sporting Manager, not Lewis's engineer.

Why is it that people shout crisis and run around in a panic when a team has a bad race, week, month or year. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Majority of design for 07 was done in 2006, before Coughlan had any contact with Stepney. Your smart enough to know that ioan, stop skewing the facts to fit your fantasy.

Fantasy?! Fantasy is when you believe that they do not develop the car during the season!

[ioan]

Very modest of you ioan although my lessons would be a complete waste to your good self I fear..... ;)

Who are you anyway??

Someone who can't stand kids who try to behave like if they were adults.


You appear to have taken the gauntlet there ioan, go on tell us a joke... F1 related of course...

I must admit I was a little naive to think everyone on here had a sense of humour and for that I apologise :)

I do appreciate jokes, but only good ones. :p :

[Sleeper]

Fantasy?! Fantasy is when you believe that they do not develop the car during the season!
The main concept of the car is done way before then and during the season its all about refinement, not a complete redesign.

[Sleeper]

You're right. I've been thinking about this and all of the "old" teams have made a mess of this year - McLaren, Ferrari, Renault, BMW. Has their previous dominance been due to tons of cash rather than intelligent design and ingenuity? The result of design/engineering departments who are so used to shaving grams off a mirror and endlessly refining that they're lost when it comes to building a car from scratch?

Or an over-reliance on complex CAD and wind tunnels, data from which may not give the same result on track? And before someone points out Honda/Brawn's cash reserves, they had two years of crap cars caused by faulty wind tunnel data. If they've fixed it now and the other teams are going to have to go through the same thing they're in trouble.
Honda's poor cars came about due to a complete lack of technical leadership with any knowledge of F1 and not understading the failings of the 05 and 06 car since they fired the tech boss Geof Willis, not due to correlation problems with the wind tunnle/CFD.

Why is it that I'm seeing constant suggestions recently that F1 teams either have a lot of money or intelligent designers? Why is it so hard to believe that they can have both?

[ioan]

The main concept of the car is done way before then and during the season its all about refinement, not a complete redesign.

History proves you wrong especially the recent McLaren history, and I feel that this season you will see another example of them redesigning a car.

[ioan]

Why is it that I'm seeing constant suggestions recently that F1 teams either have a lot of money or intelligent designers? Why is it so hard to believe that they can have both?

Hidden agendas! ;)

[Sleeper]

History proves you wrong especially the recent McLaren history, and I feel that this season you will see another example of them redesigning a car.
No it doesnt actually, the concept is sorted the previous year, if the concept is so bad that they have to redesign it, then they introduce a B spc later in the year or focus on the following years car. McLaren did neither in 07.

[ioan]

No it doesnt actually, the concept is sorted the previous year, if the concept is so bad that they have to redesign it, then they introduce a B spc later in the year or focus on the following years car. McLaren did neither in 07.

But they adopted all they found in the Ferrari documents and suddenly they were dominating them.

Sure it wasn't a complete Ferrari design McLaren but lots of Ferrari ideas were incorporated.

[Sleeper]

But they adopted all they found in the Ferrari documents and suddenly they were dominating them.

Sure it wasn't a complete Ferrari design McLaren but lots of Ferrari ideas were incorporated.
I'm not doubting that McLaren addapted Ferrari ideas (brakes are the only ones I can remeber of the top of my head), but the design concept between the cars was very different, short wheelbase (Mclaren) to long wheelbase (Ferrari) giving massively dfferent aero profiles and packaging requirments. And saying they adaptad "all" they found is most certainly stretching thinges a bit.

[Bagwan]

The adaptation that is required is not necessarily the same design .
The development of a design that takes advantage of a rival's weakness is what is required .
At least part of the advantage was due to knowing how Ferrari could react to anything they did . Add to that , knowing pit stategies , and you don't really have to have a faster car .

[ioan]

If I remember rightly both Alonso and De La Rosa said they knew the weights, fuel loads and pit strategy of the Ferrari team during pre-season testing.

And what exactly was Ferrari's fuel load and pit strategy during the pre-season testing?

[Lemmy-Boy]

Stick a fork in it! The MP4-24 is a dud. They're probably pulling a HONDA (or BRAWN) right now by using a majority of their resources to develop next year's car.

[truefan72]

Looks like after the rule changes the 780 pages Ferrari file can't help them anymore. :D

didn't need them when they won last year, did they?

I better leave this conversation as predicatebly it has gone back to tired arguments about spygate and LH's attitude

didn't need them when they won last year, did they?


No, because of course Mclaren promised that they would be honest and not use the info.

And Melbourne showed what bull that was.

[Bagwan]

Stick a fork in it! The MP4-24 is a dud. They're probably pulling a HONDA (or BRAWN) right now by using a majority of their resources to develop next year's car.

But , that brings them to a crisis of greater proportion .

What do you design ?
Design to Max-F1 , or Formula FOTA ?

You're best to leave that decision until after this friday .

[ioan]

didn't need them when they won last year, did they?

I better leave this conversation as predicatebly it has gone back to tired arguments about spygate and LH's attitude

:laugh:
The FIA control in December 2007 discovered at least 3 major Ferrari ideas in the 2008 McLaren's design!

[ioan]

I have absolutely no idea ...

That was obvious from your previous post, because there is no pit stop strategy during pre-season testing. :rotflmao:

Do you have a link for this because it was stated that if any of the components on the car were deemed to have been influenced from Ferrari data, then Mclaren would be disqualified :confused:

Hence the scutineers present during testing and the first race to determin whether indeed this was the case. If you have private information ioan then you should have presented it to the FIA ;)

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64374

It never got put on the car, but it was intended for it.

""The [redacted - confidential] mechanism which McLaren has developed since the 3 May 2007 Coughlan meeting is intended to be used on the 2008 car and appears to have been initiated by the receipt of confidential Ferrari information."

[ioan]

Do you have a link for this because it was stated that if any of the components on the car were deemed to have been influenced from Ferrari data, then Mclaren would be disqualified :confused:

Hence the scutineers present during testing and the first race to determin whether indeed this was the case. If you have private information ioan then you should have presented it to the FIA ;)

What part of December 2007 you didn't understand? December or 2007?

[CNR]

http://www.whtimes.co.uk/content/whtimes/sport/story.aspx?brand=WHTOnline&category=sportgeneric&tBrand=HertsCambsOnline&tCategory=SportWHT&itemid=WEED09%20Jun%202009%2016%3A54%3A15%3A043



MCLAREN driving duo Lewis Hamilton and Heikki Kovalainen have been praised by their team bosses after their 13th and 14th respective finishes at the Turkish ...

[race_director]

13th and 14th getting praises. it sounds like Paul Stoddart talking in late 90's :)

[tintop]

That was obvious from your previous post, because there is no pit stop strategy during pre-season testing. :rotflmao:

Really? Tell us more about how a car's performance and tire wear characteristics don't factor into pit stop strategic development.

[markabilly]

maybe our boy has been too distracted with his new sweetie:
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2307&d=1244599868

[markabilly]

Well helloo Lewiebaby, how is it hanginghttp://forceindiaf1.com/images/adrian_image.jpg

[markabilly]

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/nonsensopedia/images/thumb/b/b8/Sutil_hamilton.jpg/250px-Sutil_hamilton.jpg


maybe our boy has been too distracted with his new sweetie:
http://forceindiaf1.com/index/page_id/859

[CNR]

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/nonsensopedia/images/thumb/b/b8/Sutil_hamilton.jpg/250px-Sutil_hamilton.jpg


maybe our boy has been too distracted with his new sweetie:
http://forceindiaf1.com/index/page_id/859

i think there had to of been more to the lewis blackmail plot

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Lewis-Hamilton-and-Adrian-Sutil-in-Blackmail-Plot-85506.shtml

not that there's anything wrong with that

[ioan]

Really? Tell us more about how a car's performance and tire wear characteristics don't factor into pit stop strategic development.

But they are track and temperature dependent. How could you think that they work on race strategy during pre-season testing is beyond my understanding! :laugh:

In pre-season testing they try to iron out the reliability problems and improve the aero characteristics of the car.

The ste-up and race strategies are worked on during race week ends and are decided after the free practice sessions.

You are clueless about F1 as henners is, go watch some tintops.

[ioan]

Don't resort to lame Knit picking when your arguement starts to fail :p

Tamburello's link proved my point, so take it on the chin lil guy.

[Dave B]

But they are track and temperature dependent. How could you think that they work on race strategy during pre-season testing is beyond my understanding! :laugh:
Pre-season testing gives a very good (admittedly not definative) idea about how a car/driver combination will use it's tyres and fuel load in a given situation. The data gained in testing is part of the set used by strategists and engineers when planning race strategies. As the season progresses and more relevant data becomes available, the pre-season data become more and more redunant. However, don't dismiss its importance just becuase you don't understand it.

[Knock-on]

But they are track and temperature dependent. How could you think that they work on race strategy during pre-season testing is beyond my understanding! :laugh:

In pre-season testing they try to iron out the reliability problems and improve the aero characteristics of the car.

The ste-up and race strategies are worked on during race week ends and are decided after the free practice sessions.

You are clueless about F1 as henners is, go watch some tintops.

I'm sorry but again you have demonstrated that your opinion is completely wrong when confronted by facts.

Yet you twist and turn ignoring your original claim which has been disproved and instead bring in other factors that have no relevance.

You asked:


And what exactly was Ferrari's fuel load and pit strategy during the pre-season testing?

Ferrari will have run various fuel loads to identify optimum levels for short, medium and long runs as do all other teams. This will allow them to put different stratagies for the season. That, along with some of the other factors you mentioned such as reliability, is why they test isn't it?

Perhaps you can answer me this question? A deer, a Horse and a Cow all eat grass but a deer excretes pellets, a cow pats and a Horse dried clumps.

Any idea why?

[markabilly]

i think there had to of been more to the lewis blackmail plot

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Lewis-Hamilton-and-Adrian-Sutil-in-Blackmail-Plot-85506.shtml


not that there's anything wrong with that


"The disc is said to contain Sutil's financial transactions in Switzerland and private e-mails (http://news.softpedia.com/news/Lewis-Hamilton-and-Adrian-Sutil-in-Blackmail-Plot-85506.shtml#) between him and his friend Lewis Hamilton. It has also been rumored that private pictures were involved, but not of Hamilton or of sensitive nature."

http://news.softpedia.com/images/newsrsz/Lewis-Hamilton-and-Adrian-Sutil-in-Blackmail-Plot-2.jpg (http://news.softpedia.com/newsImage/Lewis-Hamilton-and-Adrian-Sutil-in-Blackmail-Plot-2.jpg)

Guess that is why LH did not know Ron was gone from the team until a day or two afterwards....

[Bagwan]

" If I remember rightly both Alonso and De La Rosa said they knew the weights, fuel loads and pit strategy of the Ferrari team during pre-season testing. "

I don't think you do remember rightly .

They knew fuel loads and strategy for the first races , not during testing , as I recall .

With all the info they had , it was not necessary to incorporate any actual ideas , to have an advantage .

[Bagwan]

I know the supposed Ferrari secrets were being used in the latter parts of pre-season testing and more importantly during the first races of the 2007 season.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article2454154.ece

The link doesn't work . Try again .

Yes they had secrets , but they had to wait for the mole to send texts to get race info .

[Bagwan]

Fair enough point Bagwan...

The link works when I try it, so perhaps its a regional thing? Abit like the BBC not allowing international viewers to watch video's on their site, which is pants... sorry ;)

Thank you .

Is this not what Ioan was referring to , when he asked about your response to my post ?

[ioan]

Pre-season testing gives a very good (admittedly not definative) idea about how a car/driver combination will use it's tyres and fuel load in a given situation. The data gained in testing is part of the set used by strategists and engineers when planning race strategies. As the season progresses and more relevant data becomes available, the pre-season data become more and more redunant. However, don't dismiss its importance just becuase you don't understand it.

Dave, I agree that pre-season testing is important, but claiming that McLaren got pre-season pit stop strategy information about the F2007, was dumb like almost every post from this henners guy, simply because there is no pitstop strategy during pre-season testing. They test the car with different fuel loads and on different tires and try to improve it's handling and speed, that's all they do and try to achieve.

[ioan]

I know the supposed Ferrari secrets were being used in the latter parts of pre-season testing and more importantly during the first races of the 2007 season.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article2454154.ece

So here's the article you linked to:



Fernando Alonso, the reigning world champion, has been fully implicated in the FIA’s findings behind the unprecedented sanctions handed out to McLaren over the Ferrari spy scandal.

McLaren were stripped of all their constructors’ points for this season and handed a record £50 million fine and although neither Alonso or Lewis Hamilton, his McLaren team-mate who leads the world drivers' championship, were punished at the hearing of the World Motor Sport Council (WMSC), it appears that the Spaniard was in unauthorised possession of confidential technical information belonging to Ferrari.

In their 15-page judgment released today, the FIA have published details of emails exchanged between Alonso and test driver Pedro de la Rosa regarding the Ferrari secrets, which were initially received by McLaren's chief designer, Mike Coughlan, who has been suspended, from the former Ferrari chief mechanic, Nigel Stepney.

“The emails show unequivocally that both Mr Alonso and Mr de la Rosa received confidential Ferrari information via [Mike] Coughlan," the statement said.

“Both drivers knew that this information was confidential Ferrari information and that both knew that the information was being received by Coughlan from [Nigel] Stepney.”

Coughlan was suspended from his position as McLaren chief designer on July 3, the same day Ferrari sacked Stepney as their head of performance development.

It is understood Stepney forwarded a 780-page technical dossier to Coughlan, an accusation the former continues to deny.

But one email exchange between De La Rosa and Alonso dated March 25, 2007, is particularly damning. It initially relates to the weight distribution of Ferrari’s cars as set up for the Australian Grand Prix on March 18.

De La Rosa then concludes: “All the information from Ferrari is very reliable. It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic - I don’t know what post he holds now.

“He’s the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi [Raikkonen] was stopping on lap 18. He’s very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our chief designer, and he told him that.”

On the eve of testing the McLaren car in a simulator, De la Rosa wrote an e-mail to Coughlan on March 21 to provide information about the red Ferrari setup, according to another section of the FIA ruling.

It said: “Hi Mike, do you know the Red Car’s Weight Distribution? It would be important for us to know so that we could try it in the simulator. Thanks in advance, Pedro.”

The position of Alonso within the McLaren team appears increasingly difficult to sustain, though his mind was firmly fixed on the track today as he set the fastest time in Friday qualifying ahead of Hamilton.

There is intense speculation about a meeting between Alonso and Ron Dennis, the McLaren principal, at the Hungarian Grand Prix, when it is thought the subject of emails containing confidential information pertaining to Ferrari was discussed.

There are reports that Dennis subsequently made the decision to inform the FIA about the emails, which form the basis of the FIA's findings against McLaren.

Please show us where it says anything about pre-season testing.

[ioan]

Well it doesn't does it? I never said it did :rolleyes:

Never assume my friend :D

Next time read what you post:


I know the supposed Ferrari secrets were being used in the latter parts of pre-season testing and more importantly during the first races of the 2007 season.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article2454154.ece

[ioan]

Is it possible to respond to posts without insults please?

I didn't know stating the reality is an insult. :rolleyes:

[tintop]

But they are track and temperature dependent. How could you think that they work on race strategy during pre-season testing is beyond my understanding! :laugh:


The overall and relative performance of the car under different fuel and tire scenarios and the tire wear characteristics are integral to race strategy development. Those characteristics are determined and refined in both the off season and during the regular season.


In pre-season testing they try to iron out the reliability problems and improve the aero characteristics of the car.

That's all they do? They run one set of tires, because testing different compounds and their wear characteristics (and the implications for fuel strategy) is something only to be adjusted during the season?




You are clueless about F1 as henners is, go watch some tintops.

Actually in Touring cars, we also spend at least 2 weekends (high wear-low wear tracks) testing tire wear in the offseason to see how long we can run on 4 new tires vs. just changing the outside 2, analyzing the impact of new tire compounds and adjusting to any new regulations that affect tire wear and pit and fuel strategies.

[Dave B]

Dave, I agree that pre-season testing is important, but claiming that McLaren got pre-season pit stop strategy information about the F2007, was dumb like almost every post from this henners guy, simply because there is no pitstop strategy during pre-season testing. They test the car with different fuel loads and on different tires and try to improve it's handling and speed, that's all they do and try to achieve.

That may be all they appear to do, but the data harvested in test sessions is used by every department - not just the aerodynamicists and tyre guys. Maybe F1 is a little more complicated than you first thought, eh?

[Bagwan]

If I remember rightly both Alonso and De La Rosa said they knew the weights, fuel loads and pit strategy of the Ferrari team during pre-season testing.

They did not know these things during "pre-season testing" .
This is what Ioan was trying to point out by asking what those parameters were during the pre-season .

They had a pretty good amount of info to guess , but before Ferrari had things worked out for the GP in Melbourne , they didn't have any solid info on actual strategy .
With the Ferrari data , they could run likely scenarios through programs to determine how to react to various moves by the reds in the most effective way , being that they knew the limits of the red car .


Ioan , sorry to have to tell you , was right .

And , "claiming it" was kinda dumb , in a way , as it wasn't true , was it ?
I agree it was a little harsh saying it was like every other post from you .

It does sorta fit for this particular thread , though , doesn't it , now that you know what he was on about in the first place ?

[Bagwan]

You're a good man , Henners .
I take off my hat to you .

Ioan gets a little excited(I'll be surprised if that doesn't attract comment) at times , but if you read what he says he's not usually too far off .

The do , obviously use pit stop strategies during testing , but the statement read that they had Ferrari data about that during testing .
The texts referred only to the Melbourne race , with regards to pit stops .

With more parameters specified , they would have had much more accurate modelling in which to perform the race simulations , it is true .
But , they had nothing specific to race strategy from Ferrari before the first race .

[ioan]

That may be all they appear to do, but the data harvested in test sessions is used by every department - not just the aerodynamicists and tyre guys. Maybe F1 is a little more complicated than you first thought, eh?

You're saying that they use data from pre-season testing to decide they race strategy?!
Maybe for Barcelona and even there race day temperatures and rivals pace will have a bigger influence than 3 months old data from a car that was different from what they race in May.

I understand F1 very well thank you.

[ioan]

I agree it was a little harsh saying it was like every other post from you .


Yeah, you're right I went a bit far there. :)

[tintop]

Fair enough guys we all get excited sometimes plus I had a particularly bad day today... When you have spent 4 days designing something, and your Creative Director turns round and says 'Sorry I gave you the wrong brief'... I can only snap so many pencils and punch myself in the forehead so many times, before trawling around for a victim on here :p I'm as stubborn as the rest of you ;)

Points taken on board guys... Stay cool :s mokin:

Don't sweat it. You manned-up on believing that you read something but didn't have the article to ultimately back it up, doesn't make it an untruth.

The two analytic drivers' assumptions regarding Ferrari's potential race strategies based upon the quantifiable performance of the red cars during pre-season testing is an obvious conclusion that seems to be lost by our mutual detractor.

Not to worry though, the perpetual histrionics, blanket assertions of bias (often laughably contradictory) and liberal use of skeptical smileys ensure you that the attacks are without substance.

[Knock-on]

Fair enough guys we all get excited sometimes plus I had a particularly bad day today... When you have spent 4 days designing something, and your Creative Director turns round and says 'Sorry I gave you the wrong brief'... I can only snap so many pencils and punch myself in the forehead so many times, before trawling around for a victim on here :p I'm as stubborn as the rest of you ;)

Points taken on board guys... Stay cool :s mokin:

Is this what you were referring to?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6995240.stm

[Bagwan]

Don't sweat it. You manned-up on believing that you read something but didn't have the article to ultimately back it up, doesn't make it an untruth.

The two analytic drivers' assumptions regarding Ferrari's potential race strategies based upon the quantifiable performance of the red cars during pre-season testing is an obvious conclusion that seems to be lost by our mutual detractor.

Not to worry though, the perpetual histrionics, blanket assertions of bias (often laughably contradictory) and liberal use of skeptical smileys ensure you that the attacks are without substance.

I don't think I'm your "mutual detractor" , but Knocky's quote above does tell us that they had the pit strategy info , but not before Melbourne .

Sorry , Mr. Top , but Ioan was right .

Thanks , Knock .

[ioan]

The two analytic drivers' assumptions regarding Ferrari's potential race strategies based upon the quantifiable performance of the red cars during pre-season testing is an obvious conclusion that seems to be lost by our mutual detractor.

Next time you'll say that the two 'analytic drivers' did a scientific research taking into account the differing track surface and temperature than extrapolated the data and found the exact set-up, fuel loads and race strategy the Ferrari team was going to use the whole 2007 season!
Of course they also knew in advance what upgrades Ferrari was going to bring and how the car was going to be influenced by that, not to mention they also knew when and where it was going to rain.

Please allow me to :rotflmao:

[Knock-on]

Anyone that thinks the data they aquire in pre-season testing isn't used to help detirmine pit stop strategy is a fool.

Nobody is saying that this data allows them to catagorically plot exactly when each and every pitstop is going to happen but it allows them to baseline what the thing the likely performance will be under different conditions and fuel loads.

end.

[tintop]

Anyone that thinks the data they aquire in pre-season testing isn't used to help detirmine pit stop strategy is a fool.

Nobody is saying that this data allows them to catagorically plot exactly when each and every pitstop is going to happen but it allows them to baseline what the thing the likely performance will be under different conditions and fuel loads.

end.


Exactly - nobody was implying the latter except the poster that got caught out trying to deny the former.

[tintop]

Next time you'll say that the two 'analytic drivers' did a scientific research taking into account the differing track surface and temperature than extrapolated the data and found the exact set-up, fuel loads and race strategy the Ferrari team was going to use the whole 2007 season!
Of course they also knew in advance what upgrades Ferrari was going to bring and how the car was going to be influenced by that, not to mention they also knew when and where it was going to rain.

Please allow me to :rotflmao:

Of course I said none of that, but I guess it makes sense in your "I'm wrong so I'm going to change the question world", of which you are king. I know don't think that driver input is that important anymore, but of course they can get a sense of what a leading team's upcoming strategy might look like by observing that team's offseason development (times and tire wear intervals) , a process that both they and their engineers are party to. You do know that they talk to their engineers don't you? I consider anybody that has lasted a couple of seasons with a top F1 team as a pure test driver like Pedro to probably be a pretty analytic racer.

Your perpetuation of obvious contortions and little guy behind the computer screen insults is a good source of entertainment though, and as always, I applaud your liberal use of rolling smiles in lieu of content.

[tintop]

I don't think I'm your "mutual detractor" , but Knocky's quote above does tell us that they had the pit strategy info , but not before Melbourne .

Sorry , Mr. Top , but Ioan was right .

Thanks , Knock .

Nah, wasn't referring to you, look to K-on's most recent post for clarification, that should help.

[Knock-on]

Your perpetuation of obvious contortions and little guy behind the computer screen insults is a good source of entertainment though, and as always, I applaud your liberal use of rolling smiles in lieu of content.

PML :laugh: :up:

I think both Knock-on and tintop are glossing over, or perhaps given their allegiances 'misleading' would be a more appropriate description, Ioan's point...

...which was that the 'mole' fed live info about when the Scuderia were going to pit and fed live info about race-strategy direct to Mclaren.

Sure, during winter testing you can glean some idea as to the oppositions potential race strategies based on tyre wear (mainly through stint times, since no team would allow tyre info to be relayed through the supplier to its rivals...well, no teams who employed me in any series or formula ever did, winter testing or end of year testing) but it is merely an estimate devised from incomplete data.

Getting a text from within a rival team telling you exactly what the race strategy is going to be is, and will always be, an entirely different matter.

Nobody minds the opposition trying to work out what you are up to...every team I have worked for did it....but equally every team I have worked for would be mightily pissed off if the opposition was been given exact info from an employee.

This was an entirely different matter to somebody leaving team x and taking ideas with him (note- not designs, that is bang out of order)...this was a live feed of info.

No amount of revisionism and "yes, but others do it" wailing can ever change the fact that Mclaren happily allowed live-feed info to be spread within its organisation.

No other team has ever had live-feed info from a rival.(please produce the evidence to disprove this if you have it....which you don't, in which case admit it)

Without that live feed, and without the input of Adrian Newey in the design concept....Mclaren are nowhere.

Like I said, it's coincidental, I'm sure.

[ioan]

I think both Knock-on and tintop are glossing over, or perhaps given their allegiances 'misleading' would be a more appropriate description, Ioan's point...

...which was that the 'mole' fed live info about when the Scuderia were going to pit and fed live info about race-strategy direct to Mclaren.

Sure, during winter testing you can glean some idea as to the oppositions potential race strategies based on tyre wear (mainly through stint times, since no team would allow tyre info to be relayed through the supplier to its rivals...well, no teams who employed me in any series or formula ever did, winter testing or end of year testing) but it is merely an estimate devised from incomplete data.

Getting a text from within a rival team telling you exactly what the race strategy is going to be is, and will always be, an entirely different matter.

Nobody minds the opposition trying to work out what you are up to...every team I have worked for did it....but equally every team I have worked for would be mightily pissed off if the opposition was been given exact info from an employee.

This was an entirely different matter to somebody leaving team x and taking ideas with him (note- not designs, that is bang out of order)...this was a live feed of info.

No amount of revisionism and "yes, but others do it" wailing can ever change the fact that Mclaren happily allowed live-feed info to be spread within its organisation.

No other team has ever had live-feed info from a rival.(please produce the evidence to disprove this if you have it....which you don't, in which case admit it)

Without that live feed, and without the input of Adrian Newey in the design concept....Mclaren are nowhere.

Like I said, it's coincidental, I'm sure.

Don't worry Tam, it's obvious that they don't even believe what they are typing, just trying to hype each others opinions, it's like 2 Mike Tyson's attempting to look as they are Albert Einstein! :laugh:

I'm really having fun reading such 'humorous' posts like those from Knockie and Tintop. Let them continue, it gives us something entertaining during the build up for the next race!

[tintop]

Allegations of collusion..horrors! Favorable Bias towards Mclaren, check. Problem, is neither is true, but often used -

I was sort of thrown into supporting henners by virtue of being included in a common insult, but the process turned out to be well worth it. There are many elements to this thread, I just picked up on the innacurate statement that no part of pit strategy was determined in the off season. That's patenly false becuase a car's basic characteristics including tire wear and fuel consumption are laregly benchmarked in a transparent forum during the testing season. Having the actual telemetry from an opposing team would of course enhance that knowledge considerably, but that was beyond the sope of the discussion.

Got another ineffective barb (I think) out of it, and of course, best of all, yet another laughie face (stationary version), which is just super.

[Bagwan]

Mr. Top , you do know that Henners has left the conversation , don't you ?

He understood that Ioan was questioning the idea that they knew the pit strategy during testing .
Yes , they were running the cars to determine what the optimum pit strategy would be , but they did not have pit strategy during testing .

Ferrari , like the rest of the teams , didn't know what the pit strategy would be finalized as , until the pre-season tests were over . That's why they test .



So , if you have taken the time to read this post , you now know why Ioan questioned Henners , and why both apologised at the mis-understanding .

You seem to be getting a kick out of this argument , but I'm not so sure that you and Knocky know the argument is over , and done with .

[tintop]

Mr. Top , you do know that Henners has left the conversation , don't you ?

He understood that Ioan was questioning the idea that they knew the pit strategy during testing .
Yes , they were running the cars to determine what the optimum pit strategy would be , but they did not have pit strategy during testing .

Ferrari , like the rest of the teams , didn't know what the pit strategy would be finalized as , until the pre-season tests were over . That's why they test .



So , if you have taken the time to read this post , you now know why Ioan questioned Henners , and why both apologised at the mis-understanding .

You seem to be getting a kick out of this argument , but I'm not so sure that you and Knocky know the argument is over , and done with .

Mr Bag, since we seem to be on informal terms... as is the case with many threads there are an number of sidebars / subthreads that develop. I think that I articulated that fairly coherently in my previous post. As an aside, when someone disrespectfully initiates a pattern of insulting discourse, there is no statute of limitations regarding responses, unless of course otherwise suggested by the moderators. Ioan seems to be congenitally incapable of admitting that he's wrong on a point and more often than not resorts to childish insults or simply attempts to divert the discussion from an untenable stance he has taken. No need to put up with that really, I'm sure that I'm far from unique in that respect.

[Bagwan]

Mr Bag, since we seem to be on informal terms... as is the case with many threads there are an number of sidebars / subthreads that develop. I think that I articulated that fairly coherently in my previous post. As an aside, when someone disrespectfully initiates a pattern of insulting discourse, there is no statute of limitations regarding responses, unless of course otherwise suggested by the moderators. Ioan seems to be congenitally incapable of admitting that he's wrong on a point and more often than not resorts to childish insults or simply attempts to divert the discussion from an untenable stance he has taken. No need to put up with that really, I'm sure that I'm far from unique in that respect.

Those would be "formal" , not "informal" , to start out .

That little diatribe illustrates exactly what you are doing .

Do you understand that the argument is over ?


Let's talk about the "Crisis at McLaren" .
I guarantee that they aren't thinking about how slow they are today .

[tintop]

Those would be "formal" , not "informal" , to start out .

Bag inf. for "Bagwan", Top inf for "Tintop"


That little diatribe illustrates exactly what you are doing .

Need help with this one, head scratcher, what am I doing exactly except not agreeing that information RE ultimate Pit strategy is gleaned during pre-season testing. Still clear on that, thanks.

[/quote]Do you understand that the argument is over ?[/quote]

You seem to be perpetuating it yourself, go figure. By the way, on what authority are you deciding anything is over?

[tintop]

sorry - corrected:

Need help with this one, head scratcher, what am I doing exactly except disagreeing that information RE Pit strategy is not gleaned during pre-season testing. Still clear on that, thanks.

[ioan]

Some people just don't seem to know when to stop making themselves look like clowns. :(

[tintop]

Some people just don't seem to know when to stop making themselves look like clowns. :(

Spooky in an autobiographical sense, right down to the sad clown face.

[Bagwan]

Bag inf. for "Bagwan", Top inf for "Tintop"



Need help with this one, head scratcher, what am I doing exactly except not agreeing that information RE ultimate Pit strategy is gleaned during pre-season testing. Still clear on that, thanks.

"Do you understand that the argument is over ?"

You seem to be perpetuating it yourself, go figure. By the way, on what authority are you deciding anything is over?

"Mr." seems pretty formal . Sorry for getting that wrong .

Sorry for "perpetuating" it myself , as it turns out to have been wasted breath .

Sorry for thinking that the argument was over .

Sorry to have bothered at all , but for the fact that I helped the two original protagonists to understand each other's point .

Do have a nice day , though .
Sorry to have not mentioned that , right off the top .

[tintop]

"Mr." seems pretty formal . Sorry for getting that wrong .

Sorry for "perpetuating" it myself , as it turns out to have been wasted breath .

Sorry for thinking that the argument was over .

Sorry to have bothered at all , but for the fact that I helped the two original protagonists to understand each other's point .

Do have a nice day , though .
Sorry to have not mentioned that , right off the top .

Sorry this is such an emotional experience for you, no harm intended.

[Knock-on]

I think both Knock-on and tintop are glossing over, or perhaps given their allegiances 'misleading' would be a more appropriate description, Ioan's point...


Don't worry Tam, it's obvious that they don't even believe what they are typing, just trying to hype each others opinions, it's like 2 Mike Tyson's attempting to look as they are Albert Einstein! :laugh:

I'm really having fun reading such 'humorous' posts like those from Knockie and Tintop. Let them continue, it gives us something entertaining during the build up for the next race!




You seem to be getting a kick out of this argument , but I'm not so sure that you and Knocky know the argument is over , and done with .

Hang on a minute chaps. What's this all about? Are you reading what I write or making it up as you go along?

I have posted twice regarding this matter since page 5. The first time actually helped resolve the part of the arguement where henners mistakenly believed McLaren had pre-season testing information.

As Tamb very well knows, I sometimes post stuff that is at odds with my views for the sake of clarity and offering a balanced opinion. henners was mistaken in this instance and this part of ioans arguement was correct.

However, this part of ioans arguement I had never disputed as it wasn't the partt he was talking rubbish about.


Is this what you were referring to?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6995240.stm

The bit he was talking rubbish about was where he claims that pre-season testing is only there to improve handleing and speed and that any testing has no impact on race strategy apart from perhaps at Barcelona. This is obviously a load of guff as I attempted to illustrate in the following post.


Anyone that thinks the data they aquire in pre-season testing isn't used to help detirmine pit stop strategy is a fool.

Nobody is saying that this data allows them to catagorically plot exactly when each and every pitstop is going to happen but it allows them to baseline what the thing the likely performance will be under different conditions and fuel loads.

end.

[SGWilko]

Nice weather out there today :erm:

Can we all stop making a drama out of a McLaren crisis please? ;)

sorry - corrected:

Need help with this one, head scratcher, what am I doing exactly except disagreeing that information RE Pit strategy is not gleaned during pre-season testing. Still clear on that, thanks.

From personal experience, I'd say that winter testing info at Barcelona doesn't translate to race set-up at Barcelona, nor does tyre-wear at Montmelo in January relate to tyre-wear at Montmelo in May. It gives a guide....no more...and certainly not anything you could predict a rivals race strategy on.

Not only is the track temperature/air temperature not relevant, but the overall meterological conditions from day to day, let alone month to month, do not immediately relate.

In-season testing was far more relevant as teams would be more likely to be fine-tuning testing race strategies, but even that was an educated guess.

Much the same was true of aerodynamic testing....the optimum set-up results from a cold(er) day in January/February at Montmelo were used as a baseline for first practice in the GP. Well, for the first 5 laps anyway. Then we would start analysing again and change the set-up.

The bit he was talking rubbish about was where he claims that pre-season testing is only there to improve handleing and speed and that any testing has no impact on race strategy apart from perhaps at Barcelona. This is obviously a load of guff as I attempted to illustrate in the following post.

Knockie, he wasn't talking 100% rubbish.

Pre-season is about achieving reliability and recording the results of different set-ups....which, yes, do include long fuel runs - the results of which are used as part of the determining parameters for race strategies...but nobody tests specific race strategies.

[Knock-on]

Knockie, he wasn't talking 100% rubbish.

Pre-season is about achieving reliability and recording the results of different set-ups....which, yes, do include long fuel runs - the results of which are used as part of the determining parameters for race strategies...but nobody tests specific race strategies.

Sorry Tamb but he is talking rubbish as demonstrated by the rest of your post.

Nobody is claiming that the purpose of Pre-season testing is not to improve relaibility and to record different setups under different fuel loads to detirmine optimum performance and understand how things like tyres wear etc.

I think we would agree that all of this information allows the team to better understand how the car is expected to perform under a variety of conditions.

This knowledge, although not definitive, at least allows them to better understand how the car is expected to perform and in conjunction with data accrued at meeting, allows them to define pit stop strategies.

As with most things in F1, decisions are made based on a wealth of information from multiple sources, one of which is data from testing.

However, as far as I am aware, only ioan maintains that pre-season testing is only to improve handleing and speed and has no impact on race strategy except possibly at Barcelons for some reason?

Sorry, Knockie, but I read Ioan's statement to mean that nobody goes to a test with the specific intention of formulating a race strategy directly from that tests results.

Tests are primarily for handling, speed and reliability issues...fuel loads and tyre wear being a part of those. Info gleaned at tests goes towards a basic outline of potential race strategies, yes, totally agree....but nobody, bar nobody, goes to a test to 'test' or determine specific strategy.

So, if how I understood Ioan's remarks correctly, they are factual.

I could be wrong though.....although that would be a first.

[markabilly]

I am sorry that I read the last thirty posts

:(

[tintop]

The bit he was talking rubbish about was where he claims that pre-season testing is only there to improve handleing and speed and that any testing has no impact on race strategy apart from perhaps at Barcelona. This is obviously a load of guff as I attempted to illustrate in the following post.

Agreed - no dispute with the rest.

[Knock-on]

Sorry, Knockie, but I read Ioan's statement to mean that nobody goes to a test with the specific intention of formulating a race strategy directly from that tests results.

Tests are primarily for handling, speed and reliability issues...fuel loads and tyre wear being a part of those. Info gleaned at tests goes towards a basic outline of potential race strategies, yes, totally agree....but nobody, bar nobody, goes to a test to 'test' or determine specific strategy.

So, if how I understood Ioan's remarks correctly, they are factual.

I could be wrong though.....although that would be a first.

That's OK fella. Sometimes with ioan we all get a little befuddled and he will probably clarify that what he meant is not what he wrote so we are wrong and he is right. :D

No big deal though as it's pretty obvious that what you are saying is correct.

[Bagwan]

That's OK fella. Sometimes with ioan we all get a little befuddled and he will probably clarify that what he meant is not what he wrote so we are wrong and he is right. :D

No big deal though as it's pretty obvious that what you are saying is correct.

Try changing your glasses , Knock , because it seems that Mr. Burello and I understood Ioan perfectly .

If it's obvious that what Tam is saying is correct , then Ioan was obviously correct as well .

It's quite clear .

[Knock-on]

Try changing your glasses , Knock , because it seems that Mr. Burello and I understood Ioan perfectly .

If it's obvious that what Tam is saying is correct , then Ioan was obviously correct as well .

It's quite clear .

Grow up Baggy. It doesn't matter anymore.

If you really want me to post his comments about pre-season testing again, then I will but go back a couple of pages and read for yourself. I think that Dave replied to one of them quite adequatly.

It's a silly arguement that is perpetuated by ioan refusing to retract or admit he is wrong. I learn't a long time ago that he doesn't and it's no surprise to me but you're like a little dog with a bone on this matter.

Tamburello is right in what he posted above so that's that. If you want to ignore what ioan said then that's fine to. It doesn't matter.

If you want to talk about the Mclaren in crisis then fine but let's just drop this silly bickering as I was the one trying to settle it and put a line under it.

[SGWilko]

Try changing your glasses , Knock , because it seems that Mr. Burello and I understood Ioan perfectly .

If it's obvious that what Tam is saying is correct , then Ioan was obviously correct as well .

It's quite clear .

Last word freak...... :rotflmao:

[ioan]

Grow up Baggy.

Personal attacks?! Where's pino when you need him?!


It doesn't matter anymore.

Than why bother? Just for the sake of insulting him? :rolleyes:

Bagwan is one of, if not the most, balanced forumers and you of all people are questioning him? And telling him to grow up? In this case there are no English words, yet, to express what I think about you.

[SGWilko]

I would just like to say, having had a slapped wrist from a Mod in the past, that I have absolutely no idea how any intelligent person could possibly construe the words 'grow up', when used to suggest someone is acting in a childish manner, as an insult.

Now, if I call someone a cupid stunt (you work it out), then yes, that is an insult. But grow up? No way.

I'm not having a pop at anyone, I just needed to say it, because it bugs me.

[ioan]

I would just like to say, having had a slapped wrist from a Mod in the past, that I have absolutely no idea how any intelligent person could possibly construe the words 'grow up', when used to suggest someone is acting in a childish manner, as an insult.

Now, if I call someone a cupid stunt (you work it out), then yes, that is an insult. But grow up? No way.

I'm not having a pop at anyone, I just needed to say it, because it bugs me.

The worst part, as I see it, is that the one acting childish is the one who tells someone else to 'grow up' which is funny, laughable, pitiable and so on!

[Dave B]

If you have a problem, report the post and let the moderators do their job.

Stop wading in on other peoples' disputes and making it worse. :rolleyes:

[Bagwan]

If you have a problem, report the post and let the moderators do their job.

Stop wading in on other peoples' disputes and making it worse. :rolleyes:

Hard to tell who you're talking about , Dave .
It could be me , because I waded in to the original disagreement .
Or it could be Knockie or Tintop .
Or , maybe Tamburello , because he brought in proof that Knockie accepted .
Or Wilco , perhaps .

I think it's more likely that you're talking about Ioan , though , who , you might remember , was a member in the original dispute .

This is all one discussion , Dave , and although it has strayed rather far , we are all still here , and talking .
Ioan and Henners got it together , so there ought to be hope for the rest of us , too .

[Knock-on]

Personal attacks?! Where's pino when you need him?!



Than why bother? Just for the sake of insulting him? :rolleyes:

Bagwan is one of, if not the most, balanced forumers and you of all people are questioning him? And telling him to grow up? In this case there are no English words, yet, to express what I think about you.

:laugh:

You go about this place insulting people, their posts and their intelligence as you see fit so pack in the hypocritical BS.

As for not knowing how to express your feelings for me, then I don't know how to take that.

Methinks the Lady doth protest too much

Either way, your fascination with me will not keep me awake tonight darling. :kiss:

[JustRace]

Well, I finally made it though this painful set of posts and I have one question....without looking at the title again, what was this thread about?

Can we change the thread name to 'Personal Pissing Contest - Enter at your own risk'.

Fire away...........

[Mjfan12]

im enjoying watching mclaren fail as a ferrari fan i hate them.

but i do love the mclaren f1 road car, after more than a decade still looks amazing and can hang with the modern supercars.

the mclaren slr looked like crap and the auto gearbox was a big fail.

[race_director]

well, i think that now there is no crisis at Mclaren, since the driver's have realized that they are destined to driver along with force INDIA for rest of the season. They sure will try hard to win a one off battle against force INDIA and torro....


i wonder what will antony do , he will not get the TV coverage he got last year. ???? :)

[Tazio]

:laugh:

You go about this place insulting people, their posts and their intelligence as you see fit so pack in the hypocritical BS.

As for not knowing how to express your feelings for me, then I don't know how to take that.

Methinks the Lady doth protest too much

Either way, your fascination with me will not keep me awake tonight darling. :kiss: Anybody that quotes Shakespeare in this forum is alright by me! :)

[ioan]

I think this is the problem with modern Formula One. Certain fans have developed this 'Football Style mentality' where they direct this negativity for say one team over another. If an arguement can't be backed up with technical knowledge thats relevant to performance, then it usually gets personal and attacks things that really have no substance.

As weird as it might sound, I agree with you.

[Bagwan]

As far as the 'Crisis at Mclaren' is concerned, I think its fair to say that 90% of the improvenemts are being made to next years car from now on. A complete re-design is what is needed and I would be surprised if they bring any nore significant changes to the MP4-24. They seem pretty relaxed about this years chances as they know points finishes are all they can hope for. I'm sure next season will be very different. Ferrari and Mclaren both have the odd bad season and this is expected in motorsport. Ferrari have done a better job so far making up lost ground, but only time will tell.

The problem , though , is what to design .
They can't start until they know what rules they will have next year .

[Bagwan]

I agree its so unclear now its a difficulty for any designer at present. If there is a breakaway, then the teams will ultimately settle the rules themselves so sticking by this years reg's may be money down the drain. The time being lost fighting with the FIA, maybe a hindrance even if it is only 3-4 weeks out of the schedule. Max needs to start listening to the teams or we will end up with a staggered grid all over again.

It seems Max tried an "end run" around FOTA , telling them to sign on , with the guarantee they would go into talks about the rules . That would have given the new entries a voice in the matter , and one that was as legitimate as any individual FOTA member , thereby making FOTA , as an organization , useless .

It's a crisis for all the teams , not just McLaren .

It seems to me , that the only way to react , for the FOTA teams , is to keep developing this year's cars , as it's the spec they are talking about for next year .
Stop development on KERS , as that is what is proposed by the group .
In fact , I would go as far as dropping KERS now , showing the intentions of the group are indeed serious .

Whatever they do should be tranferrable , if they should leave , to another series , since they will have a say in the rule making anyway .


Time lost not developing a car right now is time lost for everyone , not just the FOTA teams . New teams would be foolish to think this is settled enough to predict any but the most basic of design .
Start with the fuel tank .

I guess the biggest crisis at McLaren now would be that talking about the FOTA stance , whilst under probation might be construed as "bringing the sport into disrepute" , and it must be just killing Ron to not be able to tell the press his views .