President Obama's trip to the Middle East

[race aficionado]

I for one am very excited about Obama's speech tomorrow morning (NYC time) in Egypt.

Obama is continuing with his heads on approach in dealing with the reality and the importance that is in having good human relations with the Muslim world.

It is an understatement to say that this is important for all of us.

Many will be listening and I for one applaud the US president for his hands on approach on this urgent and peace seeking mission.

peace, bring it on!

:s mokin:

[anthonyvop]

I for one am very excited about Obama's speech tomorrow morning (NYC time) in Egypt.

Obama is continuing with his heads on approach in dealing with the reality and the importance that is in having good human relations with the Muslim world.

It is an understatement to say that this is important for all of us.

Many will be listening and I for one applaud the US president for his hands on approach on this urgent and peace seeking mission.

peace, bring it on!

:s mokin:

Her is a short version of his speech.

"I am sorry."

BTW Did anyone else notice that after 9/11 under Bush there wasn't a single act of Islamic Terrorism on U.S. soil, Yet we had one a few days ago under Obama?

I bet you didn't as the press is ignoring it.

[Roamy]

Race
Unfortunately the hatred by the Muslim community is taught to children growing up. It will be very difficult to turn this around as it would take decades. What we fail to understand is the brutality of these people even when they chop off our heads. Now all the TIREs are going to come on here and tell us about all their muslim friends. However if the Muslims ever get the upper hand your friend will drop you like a hot rock. All these fools out there run around with their "you are a racist" rhetoric "Iran can have a bomb if you have a bomb" Oh Oh love thy neighbor. The TIRE program is to infiltrate and blend. Mine is tolerate and bomb where necessary. Unfortunately Obama is just buying time while we try to get a plan together. We are getting backed into a corner because our allies are not pulling there load. Well I also wish the best for Obama but sooner or later you are going to get reality and hopefully it won't be nuclearlly imbrained upon you. There is no question we need to rest our pocket book for a while so anything Obama can do may prolong the inevitable

[rah]

Race
Unfortunately the hatred by the Muslim community is taught to children growing up. It will be very difficult to turn this around as it would take decades. What we fail to understand is the brutality of these people even when they chop off our heads. Now all the TIREs are going to come on here and tell us about all their muslim friends. However if the Muslims ever get the upper hand your friend will drop you like a hot rock. All these fools out there run around with their "you are a racist" rhetoric "Iran can have a bomb if you have a bomb" Oh Oh love thy neighbor. The TIRE program is to infiltrate and blend. Mine is tolerate and bomb where necessary. Unfortunately Obama is just buying time while we try to get a plan together. We are getting backed into a corner because our allies are not pulling there load. Well I also wish the best for Obama but sooner or later you are going to get reality and hopefully it won't be nuclearlly imbrained upon you. There is no question we need to rest our pocket book for a while so anything Obama can do may prolong the inevitable

It is genuinly scary that more than one person could have your views on the world.

[rah]

Her is a short version of his speech.

"I am sorry."

BTW Did anyone else notice that after 9/11 under Bush there wasn't a single act of Islamic Terrorism on U.S. soil, Yet we had one a few days ago under Obama?

I bet you didn't as the press is ignoring it.

Don't hold out on us what was it?

[Roamy]

It is genuinly scary that more than one person could have your views on the world.

yes it is genuinly scary that a country could watch a group of muslims cut off the heads of their citizens and then want to criminally charge the President for waterboarding.

But really Rah not just that - I can't even begin to believe a country would tolerate "Meth"
And this list goes on and on and on.

This world is headed to hell in a lead sled

[rah]

yes it is genuinly scary that a country could watch a group of muslims cut off the heads of their citizens and then want to criminally charge the President for waterboarding.

But really Rah not just that - I can't even begin to believe a country would tolerate "Meth"
And this list goes on and on and on.

This world is headed to hell in a lead sled

I guess you need a sense of perspective. Those citzens would not have their heads cut off if they were not in the country to begin with. Maybe you are only looking at a small part of a very complex story.

By Meth do you mean the drug? if so how does society tolerate most of the illegal drugs? But yes the list goes on.

[Roamy]

I guess you need a sense of perspective. Those citzens would not have their heads cut off if they were not in the country to begin with. Maybe you are only looking at a small part of a very complex story.

By Meth do you mean the drug? if so how does society tolerate most of the illegal drugs? But yes the list goes on.

So you are voting for isolation - me too but there are sooooooo many to send back. See the way it works - if we are not welcome in your country then you are not welcome in ours.

yes meth the drug - has been the root of so many terrible crimes.
yes the world has so many complex stories. But the only way to get through is to start unraveling.

[rah]

So you are voting for isolation - me too but there are sooooooo many to send back. See the way it works - if we are not welcome in your country then you are not welcome in ours.

yes meth the drug - has been the root of so many terrible crimes.
yes the world has so many complex stories. But the only way to get through is to start unraveling.

Lol nah not isolation, nor rampant zenophobia. I beleive it should be something like, you are not welcome in your country, you are welcome in ours. Generally speaking of course. Both my country and your country rely on immigrants to support the economy. Actually change that to most advanced economic countries.

Illegal drugs are usually bad, Ice is the problem here at the moment but I am yet to hear someone say what need to be said.

[Eki]

Her is a short version of his speech.

"I am sorry."

BTW Did anyone else notice that after 9/11 under Bush there wasn't a single act of Islamic Terrorism on U.S. soil, Yet we had one a few days ago under Obama?

I bet you didn't as the press is ignoring it.
Did you notice that in the 8 years before 9/11 there wasn't a single act of Islamic Terrorism on U.S. soil either, most of that 8 years was under Clinton?

[Garry Walker]

. Both my country and your country rely on immigrants to support the economy.
.

What a great way it is to develop the economy too :rotflmao:

[Daniel]

It is genuinly scary that more than one person could have your views on the world.

I may not agree with you on global warming, but I know I'm going to agree with you on this 100% :up:

[Daniel]

Excellent speach from Obama :up:

[rah]

What a great way it is to develop the economy too :rotflmao:

Well if you have a developed economy, the local population usually declines. In order to maintain the economy you usually need to maintain the population.

[ShiftingGears]

Race
Unfortunately the hatred by the Muslim community is taught to children growing up. It will be very difficult to turn this around as it would take decades. What we fail to understand is the brutality of these people even when they chop off our heads. Now all the TIREs are going to come on here and tell us about all their muslim friends. However if the Muslims ever get the upper hand your friend will drop you like a hot rock. All these fools out there run around with their "you are a racist" rhetoric "Iran can have a bomb if you have a bomb" Oh Oh love thy neighbor. The TIRE program is to infiltrate and blend. Mine is tolerate and bomb where necessary. Unfortunately Obama is just buying time while we try to get a plan together. We are getting backed into a corner because our allies are not pulling there load. Well I also wish the best for Obama but sooner or later you are going to get reality and hopefully it won't be nuclearlly imbrained upon you. There is no question we need to rest our pocket book for a while so anything Obama can do may prolong the inevitable

WTF?

[race aficionado]

Excellent speach from Obama :up:

Indeed. :)

Another step forward -

and one step at a time.

As an american citizen, I am proud of my president.

As a human being, I am thankful for his commitment to help us all have a better world.

Good one Mr. President.

peace.
:s mokin:

[anthonyvop]

Don't hold out on us what was it?

See what I mean?


hear ya go...buried in the back pages.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/us/04recruit.html?ref=us

[anthonyvop]

Did you notice that in the 8 years before 9/11 there wasn't a single act of Islamic Terrorism on U.S. soil either, most of that 8 years was under Clinton?

Hmmmmmmm....Really? Are you sure? Think now. You might want to re-think that statement.

[anthonyvop]

Excellent speach from Obama :up:
Another apologetic insult to American Sovereignty and another step to appeasement which will lead to a catastrophic war.

[Eki]

WTF?

Australia is still like "WTF?":

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/end

[Eki]

Hmmmmmmm....Really? Are you sure? Think now. You might want to re-think that statement.
Nope.

AL Qaeda first attacked WTC in February 1993, just over 8 years before 9/11 attacks in September 2001. The 1993 bombing happened the first year Clinton was in power and the 9/11 attacks happened the first year Bush was in power. See the pattern? Something is bound to happen during Obama's first year.

[Sonic]

Excellent speach. The strongest words I've heard from a US president regarding Israel in years.

[donKey jote]

Excellent speach from Obama

nice one Daniel... I reckon that's almost a 6 on the Wade scale :laugh:

This IS an English speeking forum you know :rolleyes: (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=641435#post641435) ;) :p :

:arrows:

[/smartdonkey off]

[Daniel]

nice one Daniel... I reckon that's almost a 6 on the Wade scale :laugh:

This IS an English speeking forum you know (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=641435#post641435)

:arrows:

[/smartdonkey off]
You speak the truth :p

Stupid English language ;)

[Sonic]

Damn it!!! I did the same! Cr*p.

[race aficionado]

speech or speach . . .
it was a darn powerful one.
:D
:s mokin:

[donKey jote]

Damn it!!! I did the same! Cr*p.

OK so that's 6 points for the pear of you ;) :p :

As race would say:

Piece damnit ! :D

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[Roamy]

So Obama extends the had of peace and Osama tries to chop it off!

Oh well maybe the Pales will get a state and STFU up for a while!!

We will just tell Bennie that Korea gave the nukes to Iran and have him go take them out. So lets start a pool
How long til the next terrorist attack somewhere in the world??

[Camelopard]

See what I mean?


hear ya go...buried in the back pages.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/us/04recruit.html?ref=us



It's just another gun related murder in the US, that's why it slipped under the radar................

So many murders and it's so common, I don't bother reading about them anymore............

[Easy Drifter]

Tony: He sounds more like a bit of a nutcase rather than a real terrorist. Certainly not a really organized attack but just one man with an agenda of some sort.
More worrying are the Korean fruitcake and Iran who will be seeing just how far they can go with threats before something is done, probably bribery!

[Roamy]

speech or speach . . .
it was a darn powerful one.
:D
:s mokin:

Race
I am rooting for you!! I know you are a big supporter and if you are right then we will all be better off.

[janvanvurpa]

Her is a short version of his speech.

"I am sorry."

BTW Did anyone else notice that after 9/11 under Bush there wasn't a single act of Islamic Terrorism on U.S. soil, Yet we had one a few days ago under Obama?

I bet you didn't as the press is ignoring it.

Yeah just domestic terrorism, domestic spying, domestic wire tapping, Thousands Standing Around, No Fly lists, your brothers-in-arms sweeping up random people off the streets in Iraq and then torturing and murdering them and now a soul mate of yours murdering a doctor in his church.
Give it up, your brand of faux-fascistic crap was eventually smelled by the American public and your heroes were thrown out.

Yeah, you should be proud.

Next step for your leaders is Federal Court and if there is justice, then Leavenworth or Walla Walla .

[Daniel]

Tony: He sounds more like a bit of a nutcase rather than a real terrorist. Certainly not a really organized attack but just one man with an agenda of some sort.
More worrying are the Korean fruitcake and Iran who will be seeing just how far they can go with threats before something is done, probably bribery!
It's silly isn't it :) If he'd been white and a nutcase Tony would have called him a nutcase but because he's not white and he commited a crime against soldiers he's automatically a terrorist.

[Roamy]

Yeah just domestic terrorism, domestic spying, domestic wire tapping, Thousands Standing Around, No Fly lists, your brothers-in-arms sweeping up random people off the streets in Iraq and then torturing and murdering them and now a soul mate of yours murdering a doctor in his church.
Give it up, your brand of faux-fascistic crap was eventually smelled by the American public and your heroes were thrown out.

Yeah, you should be proud.

Next step for your leaders is Federal Court and if there is justice, then Leavenworth or Walla Walla .

Well if they are going to the clink is senator Dodd, Barney Frank, Nancy Pelosi and all the others associated with crimes against the people??
Unfortunately you can just point to republicans because there are several busloads of democrates that need to go right with them.

Probably the best thing for the country if in fact you really care about it, is to let your team run with it without all the side distractions of hate that you guys seem to harbour. Work on reelections and social agendas and leave the rest behind. There are way more criminals in government than you will ever get prosecuted. Really the only thing you have is a vote - so organize those around you and see if your beliefs will continue to be supported. Your President is running around the world extending the hand of peace and you are sitting at home warring against the republicans - give it up and go support YOUR President.

[anthonyvop]

It's silly isn't it :) If he'd been white and a nutcase Tony would have called him a nutcase but because he's not white and he commited a crime against soldiers he's automatically a terrorist.

Don't even think you know me....ok?

The man is an admitted terrorist. He lived in Yemen and freely admits he was indoctrinated by Islamic extremists.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gQACNshVFYt6M9CDykHq6DKqPhiwD98K4SJO0

Don't you dare try and play the racist card with me. You don't know me. You don't know my race or ethnicity.

[janvanvurpa]

Your President is running around the world extending the hand of peace and you are sitting at home warring against the republicans - give it up and go support YOUR President.

Actually I am responding to the comments of a person who politely could be described as an unrepentant mad dog raving Rebublican extremist.

There is a context to my response to his absurd drivel.

One poor dumb cluck from some gowd-forsaken place in the US South goes nuts claims to be a Muslim, kills somebody and the Vop is screaming nonsense that obviously attempts to IMPLY "It's Arabiac ter'ists out of control and it is all Obama's fault".

The comments about the shameful legacy of blood and dishonor carried out under the Bush Administration was RESPONSE to his idiotic suggestion that everything was supposedly hunky dory since there we no Arabiacs killing 'Merikuns in America post 9/11. (Heaven forfend that the Mental Giant Vop would ever think that maybe those tricky Arabiac Terr'ists wanted us to try and fight them in an urban setting-----naaaaaw them Ayrabs could be that clever could they, but they've killed another approx 4000 Americans and wounded another 30,000, but I guess that's allright with Vop, since he's in no danger)

Yeah as you point out, who needs furrin' terr'ists, we kill ourselves with drugs, alcohol, cars, guns etc at a rate far higher than the low intensity stuff the Arab world seems capable of fighting at, and we seem not to want to do much about it.

[anthonyvop]

Actually I am responding to the comments of a person who politely could be described as an unrepentant mad dog raving Rebublican extremist.

There is a context to my response to his absurd drivel.

One poor dumb cluck from some gowd-forsaken place in the US South goes nuts claims to be a Muslim, kills somebody and the Vop is screaming nonsense that obviously attempts to IMPLY "It's Arabiac ter'ists out of control and it is all Obama's fault".

The comments about the shameful legacy of blood and dishonor carried out under the Bush Administration was RESPONSE to his idiotic suggestion that everything was supposedly hunky dory since there we no Arabiacs killing 'Merikuns in America post 9/11. (Heaven forfend that the Mental Giant Vop would ever think that maybe those tricky Arabiac Terr'ists wanted us to try and fight them in an urban setting-----naaaaaw them Ayrabs could be that clever could they, but they've killed another approx 4000 Americans and wounded another 30,000, but I guess that's allright with Vop, since he's in no danger)

Yeah as you point out, who needs furrin' terr'ists, we kill ourselves with drugs, alcohol, cars, guns etc at a rate far higher than the low intensity stuff the Arab world seems capable of fighting at, and we seem not to want to do much about it.

Another knee-jerker who wants to play the racist card.

To bad facts get in the way of his ignorant rants.

[Roamy]

Another knee-jerker who wants to play the racist card.

To bad facts get in the way of his ignorant rants.

Amen Brother!!

If we burnt the chips on the Democrats shoulders we could heat the world for years and years !!!!

3 Democrats in the basement = whine cellar !!

[Camelopard]

Another knee-jerker who wants to play the racist card.

To bad facts get in the way of his ignorant rants.



Enlighten us with your wisdom vop, how is that post playing the racist card?

[anthonyvop]

Enlighten us with your wisdom vop, how is that post playing the racist card?

The spelling used by janvanvurpa was an attempt to mimic a white person from the southern US. Commonly called such names as Redneck, Hick, Hillbilly...ect.

It implies a certain racism.

[Jag_Warrior]

Excellent speach. The strongest words I've heard from a US president regarding Israel in years.

Small step, but it's about time. That tail has been wagging the dog for far too long, IMO.

[steve_spackman]

The spelling used by janvanvurpa was an attempt to mimic a white person from the southern US. Commonly called such names as Redneck, Hick, Hillbilly...ect.

It implies a certain racism.

ALOT of Rednecks, Hicks and Hillbillies are VERY VERY RACIST. But then most of them are also VERY VERY stupid!

They live for Bud, Nascar, Meth and going frog gigging in their RV looking for a nice piece of rump to play with

[anthonyvop]

ALOT of Rednecks, Hicks and Hillbillies are VERY VERY RACIST. But then most of them are also VERY VERY stupid!

They live for Bud, Nascar, Meth and going frog gigging in their RV looking for a nice piece of rump to play with
And that is a massively racist comment by Steve.

[steve_spackman]

And that is a massively racist comment by Steve.

How is that racist???

[janvanvurpa]

The spelling used by janvanvurpa was an attempt to mimic a white person from the southern US. Commonly called such names as Redneck, Hick, Hillbilly...ect.

It implies a certain racism.

Vop, we know your about as bright as a potato that has been under the kitchen cabinet for 6 months but seriously calling me racist for parodying a certain purposely laid-on-thick faux pronunciation of certain key words is not even an insult, it's just plain stupid, but maybe I should be offended since you were attempting to denigrate ( <---that was another word used by outraged fringe rightwing kooks nearly exclusively and that was written with a same parody of idiotic Bush-like accent) me in an ad hominim (<--- and that was another word used by outraged fringe rightwing kooks nearly exclusively and that was written with a same parody of idiotic Bush-like accent) attack, just that you were completely incompetent at insulting me.

-->Parodying an accent of a distinct, self identified, across all lines group of people believing certain stupid beliefs and who consciously choose to emphasize certain words and certain distinct accents as a form of Social Marker is not racist. (To you folks not well versed on Socio-linguistics a 'Social marker' is a sign or symbol--word, or an accent or a stupid Nascar T shirt or a straight arm salute or maybe a skin-head haircut or something done by one person purposely to alert other who may be of a similar mindset that they are 'one of them" or attempt to build some "unit cohesion" via these external superficialities)

It especially cannot be racist when we all know that there are white, black, yellow, red, and every mix in between who hold these idiotic beliefs and who use ceratin key words and accents. We know further that criss-crossing all racial lines there are people of every imaginable National ancestry who, submerged into the "melting pot" of American culture, emerge just as stupid as many native born WASPs. (Indeed it is a well know social phenomenon seen world wide that sometimes immigrants or 1st generation children of immigrants will adopt the simplest, most blatant and loudest set of attitudes, usually hyper-nationalistic claptrap and scream that loudly is some pitiful attempt to divert attention from themselves in hopes of "passing").

So Voppie parody of an 'acquired', phony, exaggerated, accent used by all sorts of people including Hispanics, including black Hispanics, hell even my own brother who oddly enough like me is ethnic mix Caribbean Hispanic cannot be racist even if the stupid accent is a cliche of a certain subset of white "good ol' boys".
It is not limited to them.

Your presumption that the dumb-sheet accent is limited to white boys is in itself racist.


And note well Vop-u-lator, having grown up in the US South all of my childhood, I don't need to attempt to mimic the deep-south thick-as-a-brick sheeeeut-damn, awww shucks accent, I can speak it just fine, its just another dialect.

[steve_spackman]

You cannnot label me a racist as i dont think a Redneck, Hick or Hillbilly is a actual race in itself. Please keep in mind that i have met some VERY VERY nice so called rednecks.

[anthonyvop]

Vop, we know your about as bright as a potato that has been under the kitchen cabinet for 6 months but seriously calling me racist for parodying a certain purposely laid-on-thick faux pronunciation of certain key words is not even an insult, it's just plain stupid, but maybe I should be offended since you were attempting to denigrate ( <---that was another word used by outraged fringe rightwing kooks nearly exclusively and that was written with a same parody of idiotic Bush-like accent) me in an ad hominim (<--- and that was another word used by outraged fringe rightwing kooks nearly exclusively and that was written with a same parody of idiotic Bush-like accent) attack, just that you were completely incompetent at insulting me.

-->Parodying an accent of a distinct, self identified, across all lines group of people believing certain stupid beliefs and who consciously choose to emphasize certain words and certain distinct accents as a form of Social Marker is not racist. (To you folks not well versed on Socio-linguistics a 'Social marker' is a sign or symbol--word, or an accent or a stupid Nascar T shirt or a straight arm salute or maybe a skin-head haircut or something done by one person purposely to alert other who may be of a similar mindset that they are 'one of them" or attempt to build some "unit cohesion" via these external superficialities)

It especially cannot be racist when we all know that there are white, black, yellow, red, and every mix in between who hold these idiotic beliefs and who use ceratin key words and accents. We know further that criss-crossing all racial lines there are people of every imaginable National ancestry who, submerged into the "melting pot" of American culture, emerge just as stupid as many native born WASPs. (Indeed it is a well know social phenomenon seen world wide that sometimes immigrants or 1st generation children of immigrants will adopt the simplest, most blatant and loudest set of attitudes, usually hyper-nationalistic claptrap and scream that loudly is some pitiful attempt to divert attention from themselves in hopes of "passing").

So Voppie parody of an 'acquired', phony, exaggerated, accent used by all sorts of people including Hispanics, including black Hispanics, hell even my own brother who oddly enough like me is ethnic mix Caribbean Hispanic cannot be racist even if the stupid accent is a cliche of a certain subset of white "good ol' boys".
It is not limited to them.

Your presumption that the dumb-sheet accent is limited to white boys is in itself racist.


And note well Vop-u-lator, having grown up in the US South all of my childhood, I don't need to attempt to mimic the deep-south thick-as-a-brick sheeeeut-damn, awww shucks accent, I can speak it just fine, its just another dialect.

I rest my case.

[steve_spackman]

Still waiting to hear how i made a racist comment anthonyvop???

[anthonyvop]

Still waiting to hear how i made a racist comment anthonyvop???
Read your own post.

[steve_spackman]

Read your own post.

As i said i dont think Rednecks etc are an actual race, so therefore i cannot be labeled a racist!!!

If i was not a Caucasian and of a different ethnic origin, then yes you could label me a racist.

The term redneck is widely used throughout the US and Canada, so im pretty sure that every single person who calls a redneck stupid and racist is a racist?? Even the rednecks who call themselves rednecks must be racist???

[anthonyvop]

As i said i dont think Rednecks etc are an actual race, so therefore i cannot be labeled a racist!!!

If i was not a Caucasian and of a different ethnic origin, then yes you could label me a racist.

The term redneck is widely used throughout the US and Canada, so im pretty sure that every single person who calls a redneck stupid and racist is a racist?? Even the rednecks who call themselves rednecks must be racist???

You are right.

You are a bigot.

[Camelopard]

You are a bigot.


Geez, that's the pot calling the kettle black if ever I've seen it!

[janvanvurpa]

I rest my case.

A non-sequitor is hardly a basis on which to rest your case.

It is a irrational response, and confusing when another key feature of your side is to always characterize the other side as irrational, and here you muddle things by writing some Turette's Syndrome like response.

Do you drink heavily?

[steve_spackman]

You are a bigot.


A bigot is a person who is intolerant of or takes offense to the opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own

Sorry to say but i do not take offense to the opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from mine...I know many people who have a different lifestyle to my own thank you very much and have no issue with that

You must have no clue what the word bigot means!!!!

[chuck34]

Wow what a great thread! So full of intelligent discourse!

Apparently we can't have an intelligent conversation on something that has been billed as an "history making speach". Because if you agree with what was said, you are somehow a "Euro-weenie commie b@stard". And if you disagree you are a "stupid redneck racist".

Well I guess I'll just proclaim myself a stupid redneck racist and be done with this.

[chuck34]

A bigot is a person who is intolerant of or takes offense to the opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own

Sorry to say but i do not take offense to the opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from mine...I know many people who have a different lifestyle to my own thank you very much and have no issue with that

You must have no clue what the word bigot means!!!!

I know I shouldn't let myself get dragged into this, but what they hey?

How exaclty are you not being intolerant or taking offense to the opinions, lifestyles or identities of people when you say the following?


"ALOT of Rednecks, Hicks and Hillbillies are VERY VERY RACIST. But then most of them are also VERY VERY stupid! They live for Bud, Nascar, Meth and going frog gigging in their RV looking for a nice piece of rump to play with"


I have been called all those things in my life. I am not racist in any way shape or form. And I would imagine that I have as much, if not more, education that many on this forum. You seem to have some sterotypical idea of what someone from the Southern US is. Therefore you are bigoted against them because you do not understand their lifestyle. We are preached to all the time about how we are supposed to tolerate this group or that group (as long as the American Left has embraced said group), but no one ever seems to raise a question when people talk about rednecks like this.

Just because someone may enjoy NASCAR or Bud, that does not make them a racist or stupid.

[steve_spackman]

I know I shouldn't let myself get dragged into this, but what they hey?

How exaclty are you not being intolerant or taking offense to the opinions, lifestyles or identities of people when you say the following?


"ALOT of Rednecks, Hicks and Hillbillies are VERY VERY RACIST. But then most of them are also VERY VERY stupid! They live for Bud, Nascar, Meth and going frog gigging in their RV looking for a nice piece of rump to play with"


I have been called all those things in my life. I am not racist in any way shape or form. And I would imagine that I have as much, if not more, education that many on this forum. You seem to have some sterotypical idea of what someone from the Southern US is. Therefore you are bigoted against them because you do not understand their lifestyle. We are preached to all the time about how we are supposed to tolerate this group or that group (as long as the American Left has embraced said group), but no one ever seems to raise a question when people talk about rednecks like this.

Just because someone may enjoy NASCAR or Bud, that does not make them a racist or stupid.

Well just to let you in on a little secret...i know what the lifestyle is in the southern US. I did live there for over 5 years. Was posted in Little Rock Arkansas as a matter of fact!

Also my post was me just being a tad sarcastic..peace

[chuck34]

Well just to let you in on a little secret...i know what the lifestyle is in the southern US. I did live there for over 5 years. Was posted in Little Rock Arkansas as a matter of fact!

Also my post was me just being a tad sarcastic..peace

It sure didn't come across as sarcasim. So I guess it's one of those text forum deals. However, sarcastic or not, that view has been and is expressed time and time again by a ton of people around the world.

[Tazio]

Also my post was me just being a tad sarcastic..peace
But it came across as more than a tad insulting!
Next time I suggest you engage your brain before you press enter!
Peace Bro. :beer:

[steve_spackman]

But it came across as more than a tad insulting!
Next time I suggest you engage your brain before you press enter!
Peace Bro. :beer:

I shall keep that in mind

[Tazio]

I shall keep that in mind
Cheers :)

:beer: :up:

[steve_spackman]

Cheers :)

:beer: :up:

No worries.... :rolleyes:

[steve_spackman]

Next time I suggest you engage your brain before you press enter!

As should a few others around here

[Tazio]

As should a few others around hereMyself included :arrows:

[steve_spackman]

Myself included :arrows:

;)

[race aficionado]

:p

And to get back on topic,

I'm so glad President Obama engages his brain before he presses enter!
:s mokin:

[chuck34]

:p

And to get back on topic,

I'm so glad President Obama engages his brain before he presses enter!
:s mokin:

You sure about that? 57 states ... Austrian language ... anyone?

[race aficionado]

You sure about that? 57 states ... Austrian language ... anyone?

Why go there chuck?

This is about his trip to the Middle East and his speech in Cairo - and in this particular case, and in my opinion, his brain was very well engaged.

peace dammit!
:s mokin:

[Tazio]

Why go there chuck?

This is about his trip to the Middle East and his speech in Cairo - and in this particular case, and in my opinion, his brain was very well engaged.

peace dammit!
:s mokin:Sheer profundity! plus great timing R.A
From your lips to god's ears
I'm overjoyed our leader has the balls to be engaging to all of the middle east.
And in doing so dissuade a simmering Axis of Evil.
London, tel aviv, and Washington.

By the Almighty

[Roamy]

A bigot is a person who is intolerant of or takes offense to the opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own

Sorry to say but i do not take offense to the opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from mine...I know many people who have a different lifestyle to my own thank you very much and have no issue with that

You must have no clue what the word bigot means!!!!

Thanks Steve,

Well that settles it - I am a Bigot !! :p

[Roamy]

:p

And to get back on topic,

I'm so glad President Obama engages his brain before he presses enter!
:s mokin:

Now if you could only work on Nancy Pelosi :p

[chuck34]

Why go there chuck?

This is about his trip to the Middle East and his speech in Cairo - and in this particular case, and in my opinion, his brain was very well engaged.

peace dammit!
:s mokin:

I went there because you said he engaged his brain before pressing enter. Well clearly he doesn't always. And I don't think his speach in Cairo was particularly great either. As well as his overall Middle East policy, which appears to be damn your allies and suck up to your enemies. Not very good policy in my opinion.

[race aficionado]

. . . . . . . Not very good policy in my opinion.

We'll agree to disagree.

I'm cool with that.
:s mokin:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Did you notice that in the 8 years before 9/11 there wasn't a single act of Islamic Terrorism on U.S. soil either, most of that 8 years was under Clinton?

Gee Eki. How about the WTC bombing in 1993? I guess the fact American citizens died or were the targets in the US Embassy bombings in Africa, or the sailors on the USS Cole didn't matter?

Bin Laden targeted America for attack when he saw how limp wristed Clinton got in the aftermath of the "BlackHawk Down" incident in Somalia.

[Eki]

Gee Eki. How about the WTC bombing in 1993? I guess the fact American citizens died or were the targets in the US Embassy bombings in Africa, or the sailors on the USS Cole didn't matter?


Gee Mark. As I told you, it was early 1993, over 8 years before 9.11.2001. Do the math.

Some of you seem to think that Africa or Yemen waters are American soil, but I don't.

[chuck34]

We'll agree to disagree.

I'm cool with that.
:s mokin:

Yep, we can both have an opinion on that one. But I think you'll agree with me that there are not 57 states in the Union, right? :-)

[chuck34]

Gee Mark. As I told you, it was early 1993, over 8 years before 9.11.2001. Do the math.

Some of you seem to think that Africa or Yemen waters are American soil, but I don't.

Embassies and US navel vessels ARE soverign US "soil". Just as Finnish embassies and navel vessels are.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Gee Mark. As I told you, it was early 1993, over 8 years before 9.11.2001. Do the math.

Some of you seem to think that Africa or Yemen waters are American soil, but I don't.

Clinton was President. Your math is convenient isn't it? You insinuate terrorists never targeted American soil while Clinton was in office and both Chuck and I can pick up on where you are going and point out to you the stupidity of your statement. You want to quibble math on that one? I knew what you were implying and face it, you look stupid on this one.

The fact is, anti-American radical Islamic terrorists have been targetting the US on and off since Reagan was President. Whether by attacking their citizens abroad or on their own soil means little if you as President take an oath to protect your nation from foreign agents wishing its citizens harm.

Eki, what you always ignore is that while the US isn't always the most friendly or gentle in how it goes about its diplomacy, it is a damned sight more easy to live with than the world these nutjobs would create. One of the first things that would be gone is your right of speech, but I suppose in your case, I wouldn't suspect you can grasp that.....

[steve_spackman]

Embassies and US navel vessels ARE soverign US "soil". Just as Finnish embassies and navel vessels are.

Oh my..I actually agree with you for once CHUCK!!! ;)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Steve...don't hurt yourself. We are talking about facts, and as Eki has proven over and over, he doesn't always grasp those.

[Tazio]

Clinton was President. Your math is convenient isn't it? You insinuate terrorists never targeted American soil while Clinton was in office and both Chuck and I can pick up on where you are going and point out to you the stupidity of your statement. You want to quibble math on that one? I knew what you were implying and face it, you look stupid on this one.

The fact is, anti-American radical Islamic terrorists have been targetting the US on and off since Reagan was President. Whether by attacking their citizens abroad or on their own soil means little if you as President take an oath to protect your nation from foreign agents wishing its citizens harm.

Eki, what you always ignore is that while the US isn't always the most friendly or gentle in how it goes about its diplomacy, it is a damned sight more easy to live with than the world these nutjobs would create. One of the first things that would be gone is your right of speech, but I suppose in your case, I wouldn't suspect you can grasp that.....I count Robert Kenedy. So your the one who has a short memory! Whoops he was a Great American Democrat! Maybe you just suffer from selective amnesia! Quite convienient for revisionist's, a whole lot of it going around too :down:

[Eki]

Clinton was President.
And Bush was President when the 9/11 attacks happened. Anthonyvop claimed that Bush was good at anti-terrorism and that it's only because of him that there hasn't been an Islamic attack on the US soil since 2001, and I pointed out that Clinton had a similar record, because there weren't an Islamic attack on the US soil during the rest of his term from Feb 1993 to Nov 2000.

[Eki]

Embassies and US navel vessels ARE soverign US "soil". Just as Finnish embassies and navel vessels are.
If their ships are soil, they should sweep their decks. To me soil is something where you can grow potatoes. And the dictionary doesn't mention anything about ships being classified as soil either:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/soil

[Easy Drifter]

You also conviently overlook that Emabassies are always considered part of the country they belong to.
So technically Iran invaded the US when they seized the US Embassy.
It legally would have been grounds for the US to declare war on Iran but they didn't.
There is little question the US has made mistakes but so has every world power at one time or another and many who are not.
At least the US tries to protect their interests and in the process has helped to keep much of the world more or less free.
I am also very aware they have kept and are keeping dictators in power when it appears to be in their best interests. So has every other country powerful enough to do so.
Of course the rest of us know you only will go after the US and never really be critical of say Russia for her enslavement of many countries and slaughter of their peoples.

[Tazio]

Did I miss something I never said Robert Kenedy was a Prez( although he would have been). I said he was the victem of an attack of a muslim on American soil. Of course according to a highly respected contributor L.A. isn't
even American soil worth spitting on.

"Sirhan Sirhan was strongly anti-Zionist.[30][31] A diary found during a search of Sirhan's home stated, "My determination to eliminate RFK is becoming more and more of an unshakable obsession. RFK must die. RFK must be killed. Robert F. Kennedy must be assassinated...Robert F. Kennedy must be assassinated before 5 June 68." It has been suggested that the date of the assassination is significant, because it was the first anniversary of the first day of the Six Day War between Israel and its Arab neighbors."

Robert Kenedy was a great American! THE WORLD WOULD BE A BETTER PLACE IF HE HAD NOT BEEN TAKEN FROM US!

[Eki]

You also conviently overlook that Emabassies are always considered part of the country they belong to.
So technically Iran invaded the US when they seized the US Embassy.
It legally would have been grounds for the US to declare war on Iran but they didn't.

China could also have declared war against the US when they bombed the Chinese embassy in Serbia. Or Finland could also declare war against the US for its embassy in Baghdad got evacuated and looted because of the US actions there:

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Our+woman+in+Baghdad/1076153713676


When the Gulf War was about to commence, the employees of the Finnish Embassy in Baghdad were evacuated. Ertomaa, who was the Embassy's office manager, was asked if she could look after the building for the time being. The date was January 10th, 1991, and Ertomaa believed that the diplomats would return in a couple of years at the latest.
Now 13 years have passed, and Ertomaa continues to look after the Embassy alone.
When anarchy invaded the streets of Baghdad in the spring of last year, the Finnish Embassy was also comprehensively looted, picked clean even of its electrical wiring and the cushions on the couches. Ertomaa just had time to save the cash box, which she buried in a hole at the family's country residence for the worst period of mayhem.
Now Ertomaa has had rebuilding work done on the Embassy. No decision on the return of Finnish diplomats to Baghdad has yet been made, however.

[chuck34]

Oh my..I actually agree with you for once CHUCK!!! ;)

Steve, glad to know that we can at least agree on facts. :-)

[chuck34]

If their ships are soil, they should sweep their decks. To me soil is something where you can grow potatoes. And the dictionary doesn't mention anything about ships being classified as soil either:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/soil

Eki, don't be so damn argumentative, it just makes you look like a fool. Of course ships aren't "soil". That's why I put the quotes around it. Soil is often the term used for territory. I suppose I should have said territory, but I was using the commonly used term that most people would understand. But then I forgot who I was talking to.

The point still stands. There were other attacks on US TERRITORY during Clinton's terms. And has been pointed out, that is cause for war.

The bombing of the Chinese and Finnish embassies were accidents that the US quickly apologized for. But again I need to remember who I'm speaking to. You don't seem to understand the difference between deliberate acts and accidents, do you Eki?

[Eki]

That whole interview was interesting and gave a glimpse what ordinary Iraqis thought about the invasion, that was rarely seen in American media:



On the morning of the interview, the news agencies have already relayed one of the day's news items from Iraq: the insurgents have fired a grenade into a shopping street in Baghdad. Seven killed, two of them children.

Next week, the news from Iraq will be a part of Ertomaa's everyday reality once again.

"It is not fun to go back, not under these circumstances. But my home and my job are there, I am expected to return."

"Besides, it is impossible to live in constant fear", Ertomaa reasons. "You need to adapt, because you live there."

I suppose that is how it goes. Life goes on. Meals must be put on the table.

Ertomaa admits that focusing on work is difficult, and her ride to work is more or less unbearable - even in a diplomatic vehicle.

This is how the drive goes:
The driver has a gun. At the roadblock manned by the American troops, the bullets are emptied out and placed on the top of the dashboard. The soldiers inspect the vehicle and check IDs. Ertomaa and the driver wait nearby.
Then the soldiers allow the vehicle to drive on to the bridge. Have a wonderful day, Ma'am. What follows next is a scary drive over the bridge. Will the bridge be blown up? Will they be shot at?

The return trip back home is just as nerve-racking. Ertomaa's home is in a regular Iraqi apartment block, right on the outskirts of the so-called green zone that is controlled by the Americans. The rebels strike the area often. There are grenade and missile attacks.
But car bombs are the worst."Once I saw a car bomb go off from about one hundred metres away. Then all you can do is collect fingers and toes into black plastic bags", Ertomaa says.That is something that you are probably never able to forget."The Iraqis are very brave and say that everything is in the hands of Allah. If something happens, it is the will of Allah."
Besides, as Ertomaa points out, they are used to living under exceptional circumstances. "The days of Saddam were full of fear and poverty for many people."

Iraqi President Saddam Hussein did indeed start his war campaign against Iran back in 1980. That took eight years. Soon Saddam attacked Kuwait, and the Gulf War began. We sat back and watched on television how the U.S. mercilessly bombed Baghdad, Ertomaa's home town. Desert Storm and the conquering of Iraq was followed by UN embargoes, the Food for Oil programme, and weapons inspections.And now this.

When the Gulf War was about to commence, the employees of the Finnish Embassy in Baghdad were evacuated. Ertomaa, who was the Embassy's office manager, was asked if she could look after the building for the time being. The date was January 10th, 1991, and Ertomaa believed that the diplomats would return in a couple of years at the latest. Now 13 years have passed, and Ertomaa continues to look after the Embassy alone.
When anarchy invaded the streets of Baghdad in the spring of last year, the Finnish Embassy was also comprehensively looted, picked clean even of its electrical wiring and the cushions on the couches. Ertomaa just had time to save the cash box, which she buried in a hole at the family's country residence for the worst period of mayhem. Now Ertomaa has had rebuilding work done on the Embassy. No decision on the return of Finnish diplomats to Baghdad has yet been made, however.

By virtue of her work, Ertomaa still speaks fluent Finnish, even though her home language is French, and she speaks Arabic with friends and acquaintances. "But lately I have not mingled with the locals very much", she observes.Moving around outside her home grew dangerous after the kidnappings of foreigners began. Now her workplace is the only place where Ertomaa goes. Her retired husband or the driver takes care of the grocery shopping.Sometimes, at an early hour of the morning, she pops into a supermarket. On these excursions, her armed driver acts as her bodyguard, along with his mother, who hangs tightly onto her son's arm.

Ertomaa leans back in her chair in the Finnish offices of UNIFEM - for the past few weeks, she has helped the UN women's fund so that a visit to Finland by three Iraqi women's rights activists could be arranged.
She explains how the everyday life of the Iraqis works nowadays: schools are open, even though schoolchildren are also sometimes kidnapped for ransom. There is a shortage of all teaching materials, as the old books that praise the greatness of Saddam can no longer be used. There is also a shortage of medicines and hospital equipment.
Sabotage is a constant phenomenon, but the capital city does receive 15 hours of electricity each day now. A police force is gradually forming, although the insurgents have scared off many applicants by bombing police stations and queues of prospective policemen.
There is also food - for those who have dollars. Iraqi dinars have become worthless. Inflation is rampant: even bread is now expensive.

According to Ertomaa, a unit head at an Iraqi ministry can now earn over 350 dollars per month, with higher officials earning 500-600 dollars. Before the war, people could only dream of such wages - except if they were among the leaders of the Baath party, taking their share of black market trade, for example.
But 75 percent of the Iraqis are still unemployed, or at least that is the current estimate. The most popular party seems to be the Communist Party. Religious fundamentalism is gaining ground, and Arab TV-channels seem to agitate the Sunni and Shiite groups against one another.
"Many of the unemployed make ends meet by stealing. There are really no other alternatives, if you have the mouths of many children to feed. On the other hand, family ties are tight, and relatives look after each other."

The former Baath elite has also wound up unemployed. "People wish only bad things for them. The principal of a school was killed because she was a Baath member, even though she was well-liked otherwise."
Those Iraqis who work with the Americans in one way or another are also in danger. The list of casualties includes cleaning women, waiters, even a barber.

But the worst enemies are naturally the Americans themselves, the occupying forces, although officially power has been handed back to the Iraqi government."The soldiers with their helmets, sunglasses and boots, wearing ammunition belts and bullet-proof vests." Ertomaa shakes her head. "They should be removed from sight. They are like a red rag to the Iraqis, even though the Americans are not hated in the same way as the U.S. government. It is a conqueror, and that is not acceptable."

Wait a minute, these occupying forces did overthrow Saddam and lock him up in jail, where the former dictator is now awaiting his trial.Does the "Liberation of the Iraqi People" not mean anything to the Iraqis?Ertomaa looks me directly in the eyes. As do the Iraqis themselves, she believes that the United States attacked the country because of its oil.She does not defend Saddam. Towards the end, Saddam turned into an increasingly cruel leader. The tyrant had more and more palaces built for himself, at the same time as the people were slowly dying under the pressure of the UN sanctions and embargoes.Saddam had to be thrown out, but did it have to happen in this manner? How high a price do the Iraqis still have to pay for it? Would the Saddam regime have crumbled on its own due to its impossible nature?

"During the days of Saddam, one wrong word in the wrong place could mean a disappearance. The security police was efficient, and people informed on one another. You always needed to be careful of what you said. But if you could do that, there was nothing to fear", Ertomaa explains.Now people are free to say what they please. "I have nevertheless heard many people saying that things were better under Saddam. At least it was safe at the time. On Fridays you could go out for a picnic." "Nowadays only a very small group of Iraqis believe that the Americans came to liberate us from Saddam."

Even the American soldiers themselves seem to question more and more often why they are in Iraq: what if troops are left in the country indefinitely, and what if their presence only provokes the fighting that they are supposed to end?One week ago, a young American Marine in Iraq said that he does not believe that any of the soldiers in his squad care what happens to Iraq. "I'm here to make sure these guys get home safely. And they're here to make sure I do", Lance Corporal David Goward said in the Boston Globe.
Ertomaa nods her head. "That is why they fire off their guns way too easily. They are afraid, and they protect their own."

She remembers well what it was like in Iraq in the early 1960s. The women even wore miniskirts in those days. "Everything was so normal!"
"The Iraqis are convinced that we will get a democracy. When that happens is another question entirely."
Then Ertomaa breaks out into a loud fit of laughter, full of the Iraqi sense of irony.
"We always just keep on hoping and hoping, inshallah."

[chuck34]

Did I miss something I never said Robert Kenedy was a Prez( although he would have been). I said he was the victem of an attack of a muslim on American soil. Of course according to a highly respected contributor L.A. isn't
even American soil worth spitting on.

"Sirhan Sirhan was strongly anti-Zionist.[30][31] A diary found during a search of Sirhan's home stated, "My determination to eliminate RFK is becoming more and more of an unshakable obsession. RFK must die. RFK must be killed. Robert F. Kennedy must be assassinated...Robert F. Kennedy must be assassinated before 5 June 68." It has been suggested that the date of the assassination is significant, because it was the first anniversary of the first day of the Six Day War between Israel and its Arab neighbors."

Robert Kenedy was a great American! THE WORLD WOULD BE A BETTER PLACE IF HE HAD NOT BEEN TAKEN FROM US!


Taz, I agree with you. Although I'm not a huge Kennedy fan, RFK was killed by what today would be considered an Islamic extremist. There are other examples even farther back than that. Barbary Pirates, anyone heard of them?

[Eki]

The bombing of the Chinese and Finnish embassies were accidents that the US quickly apologized for. But again I need to remember who I'm speaking to. You don't seem to understand the difference between deliberate acts and accidents, do you Eki?
Invasion to Iraq was no accident IMO, it was premeditated and planned.

[chuck34]

Invasion to Iraq was no accident IMO, it was premeditated and planned.

Are you really that hard headed, or are you just dumb?

[Eki]

Are you really that hard headed, or are you just dumb?
You are. Everyone knows that if you start a war, people will be killed and property will be destructed, you can't claim it's an accident, but it didn't stop Bush and his thugs.

[chuck34]

You are. Everyone knows that if you start a war, people will be killed and property will be destructed, you can't claim it's an accident, but it didn't stop Bush and his thugs.

What? Of course when you are in a war people die. So maybe it's the Chinese fault for not leaving, or the Finnish for that matter.

The bottom line is, we are in a war in Iraq. Now wether or not you agree with that war, it is a fact. And while some targets are targeted for legitimate purposes, sometimes other places get hit. That is what we in the normal world call an accident (a tragic accident, but an accident none the less).

And we're back on Eki's favorite subject. Bush is the root of all evil in the world, followed closely by the US in general.

[Easy Drifter]

Well, of course, Eki turns almost every thread into an anti US rant.

[markabilly]

nuke finland

[Eki]

What? Of course when you are in a war people die. So maybe it's the Chinese fault for not leaving, or the Finnish for that matter.

The bottom line is, we are in a war in Iraq. Now wether or not you agree with that war, it is a fact. And while some targets are targeted for legitimate purposes, sometimes other places get hit. That is what we in the normal world call an accident (a tragic accident, but an accident none the less).

And we're back on Eki's favorite subject. Bush is the root of all evil in the world, followed closely by the US in general.
Nothing in the Iraq invasion was legitimate. It was a violation against the UN charter and probably other international laws and treaties as well.

I wouldn't call bombing the Chinese embassy or creating the opportunity to loot the Finnish embassy accidents, unless they were caused by laws of nature like earth quakes or hurricanes. If they weren't deliberate, they were at best human errors aka mistakes, not accidents.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Nothing in the Iraq invasion was legitimate. It was a violation against the UN charter and probably other international laws and treaties as well.

I wouldn't call bombing the Chinese embassy or creating the opportunity to loot the Finnish embassy accidents, unless they were caused by laws of nature like earth quakes or hurricanes. If they weren't deliberate, they were at best human errors aka mistakes, not accidents.

I guess the 12 resolutions and the further 2 that were passed later on stating that if Saddam didn't go along with them that the Allied powers that fought in the first Gulf War would be able to break the cease fire. Small detail that...but legal justification. Again Eki, you pick and choose your facts, and look like a moron...

[Mark in Oshawa]

I count Robert Kenedy. So your the one who has a short memory! Whoops he was a Great American Democrat! Maybe you just suffer from selective amnesia! Quite convienient for revisionist's, a whole lot of it going around too :down:


I was 2 or 3 when RFK bought the farm, and I was talking about the attacks by Radical Islam on the US during the Clinton Years. I don't have selective amnesia, I know who RFK is, I know who Sirhan Sirhan is, and I wouldn't consider this in the same vein at all. HE was more or less an anarchist, which was big with your generation when you weren't all stoned on dope. The late 60's culture has done more to screw up modern society in its aftereffects than anyone can realize. Between the corporate greed of the babyboomers who looted society, to the drug culture that still infests our society, I cant say much good came from the 60's counterculture save the music....

[Mark in Oshawa]

nuke finland

Naah..I like the Finn's....just a certain one wont play nice with civilized society.

[Eki]

I guess the 12 resolutions and the further 2 that were passed later telling that if Saddam didn't go along with them that the Allied powers that fought in the first Gulf War would be able to break the cease fire. Small detail that...but legal justification. Again Eki, you pick and choose your facts, and look like a moron...
I was just telling what Kofi Annan said. He was the UN Genral Secretary, so he should know the UN Charter:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3661134.stm




Iraq war illegal, says Annan

The United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan has told the BBC the US-led invasion of Iraq was an illegal act that contravened the UN charter.
He said the decision to take action in Iraq should have been made by the Security Council, not unilaterally.

The UK government responded by saying the attorney-general made the "legal basis... clear at the time".

Mr Annan also warned security in Iraq must considerably improve if credible elections are to be held in January.

The UN chief said in an interview with the BBC World Service that "painful lessons" had been learnt since the war in Iraq.

"Lessons for the US, the UN and other member states. I think in the end everybody's concluded it's best to work together with our allies and through the UN," he said.

'Valid'

"I hope we do not see another Iraq-type operation for a long time - without UN approval and much broader support from the international community," he added.

He said he believed there should have been a second UN resolution following Iraq's failure to comply over weapons inspections.

And it should have been up to the Security Council to approve or determine the consequences, he added.

When pressed on whether he viewed the invasion of Iraq as illegal, he said: "Yes, if you wish. I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter from our point of view, from the charter point of view, it was illegal."


You can not have credible elections if the security conditions continue as they are now

Mr Annan's comments provoked angry suggestions from a former Bush administration aide that they were timed to influence the US November election.

"I think it is outrageous for the Secretary-General, who ultimately works for the member states, to try and supplant his judgement for the judgement of the member states," Randy Scheunemann, a former advisor to US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told the BBC.

"To do this 51 days before an American election reeks of political interference."

A UK foreign office spokeswoman said: "The Attorney-General made the government's position on the legal basis for the use of military force in Iraq clear at the time".

Australian Prime Minister John Howard also rejected Mr Annan's remarks, saying the legal advice he was given was "entirely valid".

The BBC's Susannah Price at UN headquarters in New York says Mr Annan has made similar comments before.

He has said from the beginning the invasion did not conform with the UN charter - phrasing that was seen as a diplomatic way of saying the war was illegal.

Our correspondent says Mr Annan's relationship with the US might be made a little uncomfortable for a while following his comments, but both sides are likely to want to play it down.

US President George W Bush is due to speak at the UN General Assembly next week.

[chuck34]

Nothing in the Iraq invasion was legitimate. It was a violation against the UN charter and probably other international laws and treaties as well.

I wouldn't call bombing the Chinese embassy or creating the opportunity to loot the Finnish embassy accidents, unless they were caused by laws of nature like earth quakes or hurricanes. If they weren't deliberate, they were at best human errors aka mistakes, not accidents.

I'm not going to debate the legitimacy of the Iraq war with you for the umteenmillionth time. It is pointless because you do not want to be rational about things.

But that is not the point. As I said, wether you agree with the war or not, it is an indisputable FACT that there is a war on there. I believe that we told everyone with embassies there what was going to happen (if not explicitly, they all had to know, EVERYONE knew what was comming). So if they chose not to get out, well I'm sorry but accidents happen. Or human errors, or mistakes, or whatever you want to call them. The fact remains the Chinese emabassy was not bombed on purpose, we told them sorry, therefore this was not a cause for war between the US and China.

On the other hand, the taking of the US embassy in Iran WAS DELIBERATE. Therefore it was an act of war. I don't know why I expect you to be reasonable and understand the difference between deliberate acts and accidents.

[Eki]

I'm not going to debate the legitimacy of the Iraq war with you for the umteenmillionth time. It is pointless because you do not want to be rational about things.

But that is not the point. As I said, wether you agree with the war or not, it is an indisputable FACT that there is a war on there. I believe that we told everyone with embassies there what was going to happen (if not explicitly, they all had to know, EVERYONE knew what was comming). So if they chose not to get out, well I'm sorry but accidents happen. Or human errors, or mistakes, or whatever you want to call them. The fact remains the Chinese emabassy was not bombed on purpose, we told them sorry, therefore this was not a cause for war between the US and China.

On the other hand, the taking of the US embassy in Iran WAS DELIBERATE. Therefore it was an act of war. I don't know why I expect you to be reasonable and understand the difference between deliberate acts and accidents.
Didn't Americans know the revolution was coming in Iran, so they could have evacuated their Embassy and get their sorry asses away from Iran?

[chuck34]

Didn't Americans know the revolution was coming in Iran, so they could have evacuated their Embassy and get their sorry asses away from Iran?

The Point


























Your Head

[Easy Drifter]

And as I pointed out a thread about Obama's trip to the mid east has been turned by Eki into his normal anti US/Bush rantings that have nothing to do with what we are supposed to be discussing.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I was just telling what Kofi Annan said. He was the UN Genral Secretary, so he should know the UN Charter:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3661134.stm

Kofi Annan's kid was implicated in the Oil for food scandal. They had NO interest in letting this thing doing anything but fester. Kofi should have stepped DOWN.

As for your weak point accusing the Americans of not getting out Iran, again you NEVER give any criticism to the loons that looted and held the embassy officials hostage. THAT's ok in your book, because they were American.

Eki...you are just delusional or a troll....and either way, you are great fun to debate because your points are so meaningless sometimes....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Again Eki, this has nothing to do with what Obama is saying now, and it has little to do with anything but your silly little arguments. I find it entertaining to come home all stressed home needing to have an argument, and I can have it here with you because it is cathartic. Thanks for being you....

[Eki]

As for your weak point accusing the Americans of not getting out Iran, again you NEVER give any criticism to the loons that looted and held the embassy officials hostage. THAT's ok in your book, because they were American.

No, it was just a reply to the statement that China, Finland and others should move out their embassies so that the US can freely have fun with their precious wars. The US commands and other countries should bend over backwards and obey. That's the way things go. I'm just sick of it.

[steve_spackman]

I am lost..All these debates going on and i cant decide which one i should jump on first. Only been gone a few hours and you lot carry on without me HA HA

[chuck34]

No, it was just a reply to the statement that China, Finland and others should move out their embassies so that the US can freely have fun with their precious wars. The US commands and other countries should bend over backwards and obey. That's the way things go. I'm just sick of it.

The China/Finland comments about them leaving were sort of an aside that I probably shouldn't have made. The point, which you are so good at either avoiding or missing, is that the bombing of the Chinese embassy was an accident/mistake/error that we took responsibility for.

[chuck34]

I am lost..All these debates going on and i cant decide which one i should jump on first. Only been gone a few hours and you lot carry on without me HA HA

Just go back to the part where you were agreeing with me. :-)

[Mark in Oshawa]

No, it was just a reply to the statement that China, Finland and others should move out their embassies so that the US can freely have fun with their precious wars. The US commands and other countries should bend over backwards and obey. That's the way things go. I'm just sick of it.


I never said it was right the Finnish and Chinese embassies should have been bombed. It was wrong, but anyone with half a clue knew damned well they were collateral damage from the targets in mind. The Americans apologized and likely paid restitution or at least should of.

The US commands, and most other nations go or don't go based on their best interests Eki. Canada didn't go to Iraq. Canada DID go to Afghanistan. The debate in our parliament was vigrous and didn't split necessarily along party lines. We made up our own minds. The US doesn't DEMAND, they ask, even George W. Bush ASKED other nations to join him. He DEMANDED Iraq follow the UN resolutions ending the first Gulf War because every time we turned around, Saddam was either tossing the UN inspectors out, violoating the no-fly zone HE agreed to, or doing something else to tick off the world.

We can argue til the cows come home about the US's role in the world, but where I differ from you is I can grasp when the US is truly wrong, and I can grasp where the other side is wrong. You never see target of US foreign policy as wrong, even if they ate live children for supper. You, in short are so blinded by your hatred for the US that your rantings are just too easy to refute.

[steve_spackman]

Just go back to the part where you were agreeing with me. :-)

;)

[Eki]

The US doesn't DEMAND, they ask, even George W. Bush ASKED other nations to join him.
"You are either with us or against us" doesn't sound like asking to me. It sounds more like a threat.

[Eki]

"You are either with us or against us" doesn't sound like asking to me. It sounds more like a threat.

I don't mind to be asked, but I don't like to be threatened. It just makes me want to resist.

[Tazio]

Markie if you were referring to Clinton why was this injected into your post?


The fact is, anti-American radical Islamic terrorists have been targeting the US on and off since Reagan was President.
As for this

The late 60's culture has done more to screw up modern society in its aftereffects than anyone can realize. Between the corporate greed of the babyboomers who looted society, to the drug culture that still infests our society, I cant say much good came from the 60's counterculture save the music.... We took down the biggest crook since Al Capone, Your hero Richard Millhouse Nixon. Your $hit is plays like a broken record! As for crime and drugs, this country tried prohibition once.
It was a hell of a lot more destructive than The Monterey Pop Festival. And if you were two when RFK was assassinated, than your indicting your own mother. Oh wait that's right you’re not an American. Your mother probably had a bed and breakfast for Draft Dodgers.

And your still a child of the 60's. If your mother was not a baby boomer than you are Einstein!

[Tazio]

BTW I was not what you would consider part of the countercuture I was a Jock.
I've worked continuosly since I was 16 and graduated from college. Your a truck driver with a very narrow view of life.

[Tazio]

And another thing, which poop-butt, right wing, Winnie pundit’s nonsense are you regurgitating this time?

Boomers were passionate idealists who demanded that America live up to its ideals. Disillusioned by official lies about Vietnam, appalled by America's pervasive racism, rejecting double standards for and discrimination against women, unwilling to blindly accept authority, the boomers fought for a more tolerant, enlightened, transparent and just society. Rather than being moral relativists or anything-goes nihilists, Steinhorn argues, they in fact embodied a deeply ethical and committed vision. "Given the Baby Boom's staunch values, their devotion to egalitarian and inclusive principles, how curious that some critics accuse Boomers of lacking a moral compass and imposing a reckless relativism on the rest of society," he writes. "Conservative critics such as William Bennett, George Will, Sean Hannity and Robert Bork condemn Boomer liberalism for 'unilateral moral disarmament,' to quote Bennett, for an unwillingness to 'make judgments on a whole range of behaviors and attitudes.' But this analysis is flawed and misguided -- it simply misreads Baby Boom culture." In the end, says Steinhorn, what "perturbs these critics is that their version of morality has been superseded by Baby Boom morality, and in a sly effort to undermine Boomer liberalism, they attempt to trivialize it."

Steinhorn likens right-wing critics of the boomers and their liberal ethos to Luddites -- they are a doomed band of reactionaries, shrilly inveighing against a society and a new system of values that have left them behind. The conservative rump appears disproportionately influential simply because they make more noise, and the media loves controversy. Today's boomers are quiet because they have won: While in the '60s they vigorously protested injustice, "there's less to incite Boomer outrage as the country marches haltingly and imperfectly but relentlessly toward Baby Boom norms. It's the angry cultural Luddites who command the media platform today."
By the Almighty!

[Hondo]

I'm a boomer. To say all boomers were idealistic liberals is ridiculous. To say that most boomers supported what ever made their lives easier at any given stage of their development is probably more accurate. When the boomers were 18 they wanted the right to drink. When the boomers became parents, they wanted the drinking age raised back to 21. The boomers hated censorship of their records and media. They wanted to hear Country Joe's Fish Cheer on the radio. Boomer parents wanted those Rap records censored and their video games rated. Boomers wanted the freedom to "do their thing, man". Boomer parents led the charge for teen curfews. Look at how many boomer hippies and activists became fine practicing capitalists. Like, most of them. Consider how many boomers that probably smoked pot in their youth, want it to continue to remain illegal. I don't know by standard you're defining "Crook", but I doubt he was the biggest. I'd agree that with the possible exception of Clinton, Nixon was the first one caught on that grand a scale.

Right off hand, I'd say that overall, the boomers were and remain the whiningest (new word), self-interested, whats-in-it-for-me generation the USA has ever experienced. The boomers did their damndest to get out of Viet Nam and stay out of conflicts, until they were safe. Then they took up the war business again. Theres nothing noble about the boomers.

Boomers are quieter now because they're beyond what terrified them in their youth.

[Tazio]

I'm glad I didn't have the same expectations, and life experience as you! :rolleyes:
Only scared little pussy's want censorship. Every generation had its crooks and con men.

the boomers were and remain the whiningest (new word), self-interested, whats-in-it-for-me generation the USA How did you feel during the roaring 20's :confused:
Right off hand That's the biggest flaw in your argument your speaking off hand. Were you at Kent State. Did you suffer the injustices of the Jim Crow South? When you were 17 did you fight to have the voting age moved from 21 to 18 and win? Did you excel in scholastics, sports, civic justice, and consciousness? Did it piss you off when RFK, Martin Luther King, and Malcolm X were murdered? Did you ever listen to Ceaser Chavez speak at your campus and realize his cause was just. Did you feel those experiences? Somehow I think not.
I hope you didn't spend the 60's and 70's sniffing glue If you did you missed out on a good fight!

[Roamy]

I feel sorry for Obama in one respect. He has that old blister Gimme Carter firmly attached to his heel now. This is about as appealing as having Susan Boyle joining the Miss Universe Pageant!

[Hondo]

I don't mind to be asked, but I don't like to be threatened. It just makes me want to resist.

Are you sure you don't live in Texas? You're starting to sound like one of us.

[Eki]

Are you sure you don't live in Texas? You're starting to sound like one of us.
People are basically the same whether they are from Texas, Finland, Palestine, Iran, Iraq or North Korea, they don't like to be threatened and bossed around by foreigners.

[Hondo]

People are basically the same whether they are from Texas, Finland, Palestine, Iran, Iraq or North Korea, they don't like to be threatened and bossed around by foreigners.

Texans don't cotton to that sort of behaviour from their next door neighbor, much less some pilgrim from out of town.

[anthonyvop]

People are basically the same whether they are from Texas, Finland, Palestine, Iran, Iraq or North Korea, they don't like to be threatened and bossed around by foreigners.

Then explain France.


Finland lived for years being bossed around by the Soviets.

[Tazio]

Then explain France.


Finland lived for years being bossed around by the Soviets.

No Tony You explain France.
This ought to be good for a couple laughs!

I'll start with one little piece of info for you. They liked being bossed around so much during the Nazi occupation,
that more french underground, and Free French forces died fighting to liberate their homeland
than Americans did in the entire European theatre.
And at least include:
poland,denmark,finland,and norway
You are the worst example of American arrogance on this forum!

[janvanvurpa]

No Tony You explain France.
This ought to be good for a couple laughs!

I'll start with one little piece of info for you. They liked being bossed around so much during the Nazi occupation,
that more french underground, and Free French forces died fighting to liberate their homeland
than Americans did in the entire European theatre.
And at least include:
poland,denmark,finland,and norway
You are the worst example of American arrogance on this forum!

Be careful with that "American" thing there with Vop, I think he's kinda fresh off the boat from some 2 bit Dictatorship sorta nearby South Florida and down there in his area there are now a few generations of refugees living in this Ultra-Nationalistic Hyper right wing fantasy land completely divorced from any connection with reality, history, their own peculiar isolation from main stream political trends. or he may be First Generation fresh off the boat like me, difference is I didn't grow up in a cultural and moral ghetto.

Now I don't know your background, when your ancestors arrived but being not quite the norm (non WASP, only one born "Up North"), I got to see lots of other immigrants and their kids growing up, then at an early age (17) became an immigrant myself. (And only returned to USA at 30)(And that was 26 years ago)
As a defense mechanism many immigrants take one of 2 obvious paths:
Close ranks, and slather on a thick layer of nostalgia for the lost ancestral home (Lots of Americans of Irish decent do this Nationwide, lots of Italians and of course the whole pitiful South Florida Cuban Community, and there are other strongly "ancestral worship" groups---Seattle is full of Squareheads and Herring chokers (Swedes and Norwegians in the local parlance) and I was just invited to bring my Rallycar to a Swedish National Day Celebration display of Swedish cars. It was fun, but being of a higher level of historic and social developement that our unfortunate Vop's homeland, they were not doing what he does)
Which is the second path many immigrants and first gen offspring do: take on all the absolute worst traits of a society, the crudest, most pugnacious, hyper "Patriotic" verbally aggressive---especially from the keyboards---ridiculing everything that resembles thinking, or reflection, and like this particularly repellant and obviously deranged example here, raving crpa about other countries which insults not only their Nation but their fallen soldiers who fought OUR enemy before we did, and later along side of us---he thus spits on the grave of the Americans who died to liberate our Ally--back when his ancestors (Collectively his entire country of origin---if I recall correctly) were probably drunk in some sugar cane field.
I suppose they (the horrible examples of "Caricature Patriot" like Vop) do this to attempt to deflect attention from their origin and blend in with what is seen as a threatening environment by acting all threatening and "America F**k Yeah!!" in hope the other simian like "dominant culture" residents of the holes they live in don't notice. They hope they'll "pass" for "one of the good ol' boys".
I've seen this operate in all the countries I have worked in or spent lots of time. (USA, Sweden, France, West Germany, Holland, UK, Canada).
I've sen it in my own family where heaps of my Aunts and Uncles and cousins came up north and joined the US Army, and where my own brother and sister chose to identify with the Dominant Culture.

So don't be to quick with the "American" thing, he only represents a tiny, outdated primitive minority of the huge spectrum of what Americans are.

The one thing I don't understand is how the Moderators let this guy insult repeatedly a whole country with his utterly obnoxious crap-spewing about France which is insulting to any French forum members because it is so false.
(And I am aware i made a comment about the liklihood of --if I recall correctly---Vops ancestors entire country being drunk in some sugar cane field while the French were fighting Nazis---but that is very likely the truth)

[Eki]

No Tony You explain France.
This ought to be good for a couple laughs!

I'll start with one little piece of info for you. They liked being bossed around so much during the Nazi occupation,
that more french underground, and Free French forces died fighting to liberate their homeland
than Americans did in the entire European theatre.
And at least include:
poland,denmark,finland,and norway
You are the worst example of American arrogance on this forum!
Finland doesn't belong to that group with France, Poland, Denmark and Norway. Finland's alliance with Germany was voluntary and caused by the threat from the Soviet Union, not from Germany. BTW, the only capitals of war going European countries that weren't occupied during the war were London, Moscow and Helsinki.

Read here about the reasons behind the Finnish-German alliance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_war

[Tazio]

Finland doesn't belong to that group with France, Poland, Denmark and Norway. Finland's alliance with Germany was voluntary and caused by the threat from the Soviet Union, not from Germany. BTW, the only capitals of war going European countries that weren't occupied during the war were London, Moscow and Helsinki.

Read here about the reasons behind the Finnish-German alliance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_war
I stand corrected! Peace my Man :up:

German-Occupied Countries
Every country in Europe except Britain, Ireland, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Finland, Turkey in Europe and Bulgaria was occupied by Nazi Germany.

Italy was part of the Axis, but when Italy became an unwilling ally it was occupied. Finland, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria were Axis allies. Of these countries, Hungary and parts of Romania were occupied.

The Germans also occupied all of North Africa west of Egypt.

Here is a list:


Albania

Austria

Belgium

Byelorussia (part of the USSR)

Channel Islands (part of Britain)

The Crimea (part of the USSR)

Czechoslovakia (absorbed half, the other half forming the country of Slovakia)

Denmark

Estonia

France

Greece

Latvia

Lithuania

Luxembourg

Netherlands (Holland)

Norway

Poland

Russia (partially)

The Sudentenland

Parts of the Transcaucus region (part of the USSR)

Ukraine (part of the USSR)

Yugoslavia
In addition, a large part of Italy after the country changed sides in 1943, and Hungary in 1944-45.




http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_countries_did_Germany_occupy_in_World_War_2

[donKey jote]

Spain was occupied by Franco, with the help of Nazi Germany, before the World War. Thanks to Hitler I hold an Irish passport :)
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[Tazio]

Spain was occupied by Franco, with the help of Nazi Germany, before the World War. Thanks to Hitler I hold an Irish passport :)
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

Than I suggest you "kiss the blarney stone" :laugh: :arrows: ;)

[Roamy]

Spain was occupied by Franco, with the help of Nazi Germany, before the World War. Thanks to Hitler I hold an Irish passport :)
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

God save the Sheep :p

[Eki]

Then explain France.


Finland lived for years being bossed around by the Soviets.
The same reasons why Germany and Japan are bossed around by the US. They realized when it's better to give up fighting and try friendly coexistence and compromises instead. It doesn't mean they necessarily liked it.

[Easy Drifter]

Wow!!! Even for you Eki that is one h--- of a stretch. :confused:
Defeated might just be a better term.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The same reasons why Germany and Japan are bossed around by the US. They realized when it's better to give up fighting and try friendly coexistence and compromises instead. It doesn't mean they necessarily liked it.

Germany gets bossed around by the US? Gee....REALLY? That would explain why the German governments of the last decade of donated exactly how many troops to the invasion of IRAQ? ZERO. How about their fighting troops in Afghanistan? ZERO. The Germans there are under NATO and UN auspices and do NO combat.

Japan? We wont even go to how much they do their own thing vis a vis the US.

Eki..you need to see a shrink, I don't think you see the same reality 99% of the world sees.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Spain was occupied by Franco, with the help of Nazi Germany, before the World War. Thanks to Hitler I hold an Irish passport :)
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif


That would explain a lot of your Donkey tendencies. Being Irish is always a good thing....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Then explain France.


Finland lived for years being bossed around by the Soviets.

Tony...most of the French DIDN'T like being bossed around by the Nazi's, but a few of them bought into the myth about the Jews screwing their country, and being French, living well always tends to distract them from defending themselves, or at least that was the Vichy regime. The rest of France? Fought like tigers when given the tools. The French Resistance were nasty customers, and the Free French came ashore at Utah a few days after D Day and worked under Patton through the breakout of Normandy.

AS for the Finns, well they were playing along the same way the US played along with the Soviets. Should we suggest Roosevelt was Stalin's stooge?

Finland- 4 million people in 1945. Soviet Union, about 160 million. Damned right the Finns put up with their crap. The name Custer resonate with you?

Tony, it really gets old when you slag anything non-American based on your own pre conceived notions of superiority. There are a lot of Americans I like, but you my friend wouldn't be one of them because near as I can figure, you cannot accept nor try to accept that the world is a lot bigger place than South Florida and your own spectrum of life.

[Tazio]

Germany gets bossed around by the US? Gee....REALLY? That would explain why the German governments of the last decade of donated exactly how many troops to the invasion of IRAQ? ZERO. How about their fighting troops in Afghanistan? ZERO. The Germans there are under NATO and UN auspices and do NO combat.

Japan? We wont even go to how much they do their own thing vis a vis the US.

Eki..you need to see a shrink, I don't think you see the same reality 99% of the world sees. The period we were discussing is WW2 I believe this is what Eki was referring to.
The Japanese and German situation is quite different. Directly after the Germany's defeat.
The country was divided into four zones for occupation, Russian, French, US, and GB.
I have spoken with a couple of American officers that were there during the occupation,
although the Germans did not cotton to being occupied. They were treated mercilously in the French and Russian zones,
as a direct result of the treatment they gave to these countries when they occupied them!
The Japanese people were more open to American influence having just been informed that their Emperor was not a god.
I'm sure many resented it. But MacArthur was rather benevolent in his endeavors with the natives.

[Eki]

Germany gets bossed around by the US? Gee....REALLY? That would explain why the German governments of the last decade of donated exactly how many troops to the invasion of IRAQ? ZERO. How about their fighting troops in Afghanistan? ZERO. The Germans there are under NATO and UN auspices and do NO combat.

Japan? We wont even go to how much they do their own thing vis a vis the US.

Eki..you need to see a shrink, I don't think you see the same reality 99% of the world sees.
Finland didn't send any troops to Afghanistan when the Soviets were there in the 1980s either, or to Hungary in 1956 or Chzeckoslovakia in 1968, the Soviet Union didn't even ask them to send any troops. Finland just tried to avoid doing foreign policy that would harm or upset the Soviet Union, just like I'm sure Germany and Japan try to avoid harming or upsetting the US. It was enough for the Soviets, they never openly bossed Finland around after the war.

And the French Vichy government was relatively independent too and didn't send any troops to fight for the Nazi-Germany:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

[Easy Drifter]

So now you are equating the totalitarian Union of Soviet Socialist Republics invading Afghanistan or putting down popular uprisings in their puppet states with an UN/Nato mission in Afghanistan?
Even 'modern' Finland has a token force of troops in Afghanistan, albeit in a safe zone. Did the US threaten Finland to force them to send a few troops?

[Eki]

So now you are equating the totalitarian Union of Soviet Socialist Republics invading Afghanistan or putting down popular uprisings in their puppet states with an UN/Nato mission in Afghanistan?
Even 'modern' Finland has a token force of troops in Afghanistan, albeit in a safe zone. Did the US threaten Finland to force them to send a few troops?
What's that got to do with what Anthonyvop said about Finland being bossed around by the Soviet Union for years? It was Mark O'Shawa who dragged Afghanistan into this conversation.

At least they tried to threaten Finland and others to join them in Iraq by saying the Iraq rebuilding deals would only be open for companies from those countries who joined their coalition. During the Cold War the CIA also tried to stop a Finnish company from building and selling deep sea submarines to the Soviet Union by threatening to bankrupt them and putting trade restrictions on Finland.

[Easy Drifter]

I was responding to your last inane post, not to anything Tony said.
During the Cold War era I only knew one Finn well enough to discuss the Finnish Govt. positions and apparent subserviance to the Soviet Union.
He had no use for the attitude of official Finland.
He now lives in Germany. His son is German.
You might have heard of him. His name is Keke Rosberg.

By the way are you still a member of the Communist Party?

[Eki]

He now lives in Germany. His son is German.
You might have heard of him. His name is Keke Rosberg.

I thought they both lived in Monaco. I haven't heard them ever living in Germany.



By the way are you still a member of the Communist Party?
Never been a member of any party.

[Easy Drifter]

I guess you never noticed Nico is listed as a German driver.

[Eki]

I guess you never noticed Nico is listed as a German driver.
Yes, I've noticed. It's because his mother is German. He has double citizenship, Finnish and German. German from his mother's citizenship and Finnish from his father's citizenship, neither required him to live either in Finland or in Germany. He was born in Germany, but moved to Monaco when he was two weeks old.

Here he tells how he arrived to Monaco two weeks too late for to have a Monaco citizenship (Monaco citizenship requires you to be born in Monaco, unlike German and Finnish citizenships don't require to be born in those countries). He also says he won't ever live anywhere else, because he loves Monaco:

http://www.hs.fi/urheilu/artikkeli/Nico+Rosberg+muutti+Monacoon+kaksi+viikkoa+liian+m yöhään/1135246164931

The article also mentions how Keke has sometime said that he moved to Monaco for religious reasons, but the writer suspects that the income tax percentage in Monaco, which is zero, had also something to do with it.

As a curiosity, Keke was born in Sweden and moved to Finland later but never had a Swedish citizenship.

[janvanvurpa]

I was responding to your last inane post, not to anything Tony said.
During the Cold War era I only knew one Finn well enough to discuss the Finnish Govt. positions and apparent subserviance to the Soviet Union.
He had no use for the attitude of official Finland.
He now lives in Germany. His son is German.
You might have heard of him. His name is Keke Rosberg.

By the way are you still a member of the Communist Party?

Have you thought a bit that Rosberg's "no use for" what you call subservience to their big neighbor (very ironic coming from Canada) might be because he grew up in the era of peace won by his father's generation sacrifices, a far bloodier sacrifice in proportion to population than what Canada did in that same last big conflict---(and yeah I know Canada's contribution to the War was both longer and bloodier in proportion to population by a good deal---your ancestors did their part) so in that era of peace he could talk nonsense in the same way as all the gung ho pro-war Chickenhawks here always talk?

Have you thought of the absurdity of saying Finland was "subservient" to Soviet Union in light of the "subservience" of Germany's post war accommodations both militarily and economically to Soviet Union?
A superficial glance at the relations of the various countries bordering the old Warsaw pact shows the same sort of trade exchanges and that continues to this day; are all the other countries somehow exempt from Rossberg's seeming contempt?

What I wonder often is why are Motorsport people so frequently such risable utter Chickehawks?
I find it particularly odd in somebody who might have reached a high enough level to have traveled a lot--and thus had first hand opportunity to have first hand contact with people from all over the world, and thus see the interdependent nature of the world better than a stay at home who has never been anywhere and who only has experienced life in one place.

Maybe it shows just how cut off from reality some types of motorsport people are.

But it seems that the importance of a given person's opinion on International relations is best judged by the achievements in some extremely narrow esoteric sport, perfectly reasonable. ;)

[Eki]

Have you thought a bit that Rosberg's "no use for" what you call subservience to their big neighbor (very ironic coming from Canada)
I was thinking the same. They talk about "Finlandization" but they never talk about "Canadization", although Canada is more dependent on the US than Finland never was on the Soviet Union, at least economically but maybe also otherwise.

[janvanvurpa]

I was thinking the same. They talk about "Finlandization" but they never talk about "Canadization", although Canada is more dependent on the US than Finland never was on the Soviet Union, at least economically but maybe also otherwise.


Well sure, but I truly believe if we look at how intertwined the BRD and USSR were in the 60s and later it was much much deeper interdependence than little Finland was with USSR, and in many more critical parts of the economy.

Kind of strange that in one way of looking at it, BY TRADE AGREEMENTS Germany achieved they goals when they invaded back in 41: access to Soviet Unions natural resources.
Likewise Japan now is the critical economic powerhouse in all the same areas via trade and investment that they once so stupidly tried to dominate by coercion and war.

Seems maybe USA could learn to dispense with the "blow them all up first, THEN befriend than after" thing since that tactic worked so well for our former enemies.

But I guess negotiation and cooperation isn't exciting or distracting enough for many people living in some macho fantasy land.

[Eki]

Kind of strange that in one way of looking at it, BY TRADE AGREEMENTS Germany achieved they goals when they invaded back in 41: access to Soviet Unions natural resources.
Likewise Japan now is the critical economic powerhouse in all the same areas via trade and investment that they once so stupidly tried to dominate by coercion and war.

Seems maybe USA could learn to dispense with the "blow them all up first, THEN befriend than after" thing since that tactic worked so well for our former enemies.

But I guess negotiation and cooperation isn't exciting or distracting enough for many people living in some macho fantasy land.
True. Economically Finland did better than the Soviet Union, West Germany did at some point better than the UK economically and I guess at some point even Japan made economically better than the US. The losers in war were sometimes winners in peace. The winners in war had to spend a lot of money and time in their military to maintain their position, while the losers could spend more on their peacetime infrastructure.

[Mark in Oshawa]

What's that got to do with what Anthonyvop said about Finland being bossed around by the Soviet Union for years? It was Mark O'Shawa who dragged Afghanistan into this conversation.

At least they tried to threaten Finland and others to join them in Iraq by saying the Iraq rebuilding deals would only be open for companies from those countries who joined their coalition. During the Cold War the CIA also tried to stop a Finnish company from building and selling deep sea submarines to the Soviet Union by threatening to bankrupt them and putting trade restrictions on Finland.

Afghanistan is only relevent in that you claimed Germany was America's lap dog, and I brought up you couldn't claim that from Germany's contributions or lack there of to "American Imperialism"

They didn't threaten Finland. They told Finland if Finnish companies wanted in on the reconstruction ( something that happens after wars ) that countries who didn't participate couldn't expect their multinationals to have preferred status on getting contracts on said reconstruction. Hardly unreasonable I would say.

As for the CIA...prove that they stopped the Finnish company from building the Subs to the Soviets. Since when did the Soviets buy anything high tech from anyone? Last time I looked, the USSR built subs...lots of them.

AS for the CIA, they were fighting a "Cold War" with the USSR. I know you on some level probably were rooting for the Russians.

[Eki]

As for the CIA...prove that they stopped the Finnish company from building the Subs to the Soviets. Since when did the Soviets buy anything high tech from anyone? Last time I looked, the USSR built subs...lots of them.
If you understood Finnish, I could provide you with interviews of managers of that company or even with discussions between the presidents of the US and Finland.



AS for the CIA, they were fighting a "Cold War" with the USSR. I know you on some level probably were rooting for the Russians.
No, I rooted for the US. But since the Soviet Union exists no more, I can open my eyes and realize it wasn't all black and white or good against evil. The both "super powers" were basically the same, they both were looking after #1 and didn't much give a damn about other countries.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I was thinking the same. They talk about "Finlandization" but they never talk about "Canadization", although Canada is more dependent on the US than Finland never was on the Soviet Union, at least economically but maybe also otherwise.

I wont comment on the Finn's and the Russians since I don't live with the Russians or the USSR on my doorstep as a Finn.

As for Canada and the US, it is really simple to understand the relationship. There is no border when it comes to business for the most part, and since the US is 10 times the population of Canada, American companies are dominant in Canada's marketplace. You have that in a continental economy. We Canadians don't like it, but we like working and our standard of living is often higher than many American states, so there is a balance.

That said, US protectionism is a far worse threat. Just this month, Obama is telling Canada how we are their best friends and in the next breath will bring in legislation for a "Buy America" policy that will discriminate against Canadian suppliers for government contracts and further "Green" legislation that will basically take Canadian oilsands oil out of the North American marketplace. Some friend. Dubya was a lot of things, but he didn't mess around with business while stabbing his "friend" to the north in the back.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If you understood Finnish, I could provide you with interviews of managers of that company or even with discussions between the presidents of the US and Finland..

I don't speak Finnish, on THAT you are one up on me.



No, I rooted for the US. But since the Soviet Union exists no more, I can open my eyes and realize it wasn't all black and white or good against evil. The both "super powers" were basically the same, they both were looking after #1 and didn't much give a damn about other countries.


You rooted for the US? REALLY? Eki, you haven't liked just about anything they have done in the last 30 years based on the posts I have read. As awkward as their foreign policy often is, and god knows we Canadians know that what the US says and does are often two different things, they are not much different than any other large nation. They look after themselves. Last time I looked, their politicians were not after my vote, they wanted to votes of the people at home. Just like I wouldn't expect any negotiation with the Finns with some treaty the Finn's wouldn't give away the store either.

[Eki]

I don't speak Finnish, on THAT you are one up on me.

Here's the Finnish Wikipedia link on it, but it's not just Wikipedia, it's also been on Finnish TV:

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rauma-Repola_Oceanics

EDIT: Fortunately there's an English wiki-article on those subs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIR_(submersible)


Mir (Russian: "Мир", or peace) is a self-propelled Deep Submergence Vehicle. The project was initially developed by the USSR Academy of Sciences (now the Russian Academy of Sciences) along with Design Bureau Lazurith. Later two vehicles were ordered from Finland.

[Eki]

Oh, here it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIR_(submersible)


Finnish-Soviet co-operation

Production of the two MIR units was a prime example of Finnish-Soviet economic and technical co-operation during the Cold War. Bids from Canada, France and Sweden to construct the submarines had been retracted most likely due to political pressure. In a later interview with STT the then Rauma-Repola department head Peter Laxell said he believed that "Finland got the permit to deliver the crafts to the Soviets on the basis that the CoCom officials in the USA believed the project would be a failure . . . Once it became clear to them we actually had accomplished the engineering feat there was a huge uproar about how such technology could be sold to the Soviets, enough for many visits to the Pentagon.". [3]
Because of the CoCom restrictions, most of the technology used had to be developed in Finland. The electronics was developed by Hollming. The syntactic foam was produced in Finland by Exel Oyj, as 3M, the leading producer, refused to supply their product.[1]
The level of technology flowing into the Soviet Union raised concern in the USA and Rauma-Repola was privately threatened with economic sanctions. For example, one concern of the Pentagon was the possibility that the Soviet Union would manufacture a pioneer submarine fleet that could clear the ocean floor of U.S. deep sea listening equipment[1]. With the possibility of losing its lucrative offshore oil platforms market Rauma-Repola yielded, and submarine development ceased in Finland. One project that was abandoned was the development of a fuel cell based air-independent propulsion system.
The 122 m length support vessel R/V Akademik Mstislav Keldysh was also built in Finland, at the Hollming shipyard in Rauma in 1980 (now STX Finland).[4]

[Eki]

You rooted for the US? REALLY? Eki, you haven't liked just about anything they have done in the last 30 years based on the posts I have read.
They were the lesser evil then, just like Nazi-Germany was the lesser evil for Finland over the Soviet Union in WW2. Lesser evil isn't necessarily the same as good.

[chuck34]

That said, US protectionism is a far worse threat. Just this month, Obama is telling Canada how we are their best friends and in the next breath will bring in legislation for a "Buy America" policy that will discriminate against Canadian suppliers for government contracts and further "Green" legislation that will basically take Canadian oilsands oil out of the North American marketplace. Some friend. Dubya was a lot of things, but he didn't mess around with business while stabbing his "friend" to the north in the back.

Sorry OT again, but that has got to be just about the worst thing Obama is doing, and that's saying something. He's going around the world p!ssing off every ally we have. Canada, UK, Israel, etc. All the while he's kissing @ss of people that don't like us. I don't get it.

[Eki]

Sorry OT again, but that has got to be just about the worst thing Obama is doing, and that's saying something. He's going around the world p!ssing off every ally we have. Canada, UK, Israel, etc. All the while he's kissing @ss of people that don't like us. I don't get it.
How is he p!ssing off the UK? I haven't heard any complaints from the British. And what good is Israel for the US? Maybe those who didn't like you before will like you better thanks to Obama.

[janvanvurpa]

They were the lesser evil then, just like Nazi-Germany was the lesser evil for Finland over the Soviet Union in WW2. Lesser evil isn't necessarily the same as good.

Eki, you are so kind.
You could place the relationship with Germany, then under the Nazis, in a clearer context so those not as intimately familiar and those so concietedly wagging their fingers understand a bit of the fix Finland was in.

you might say "In light of all the Western Democracies leaving democratic Finland out in the cold and aside for mere tiny handfuls of weapons, made little effort to aid Finland, then barely over 3 million (didn't reach 4 million till 1950) to face Soviet Union alone---which ripped off 20% of the country, what was Finland to do?
Except accept help where ever it was offered"---including tons of supplies the Generous Soviet soldiers left on the field for the Finns to pick up.

Sort of like the Western Democracies were not so neutral and even impeded support reaching the democratic Government of Spain

[chuck34]

How is he p!ssing off the UK? I haven't heard any complaints from the British. And what good is Israel for the US? Maybe those who didn't like you before will like you better thanks to Obama.

It's a bunch of small things, diplomatic curtesies not extened really, that are starting to chip away at the "special relationship". I'm sure from your viewpoint that Israel is no good for anyone. So far be it from me to shatter your illusions.

Yep that's it people will like us more now that Obama is in office. Keep telling yourself that. The only way most of these countries that don't like us will like us, is if we are weakend to the point that they can take advantage of us in some way. It's really not that hard to see.

[Tazio]

It's really not that hard to see.

If your paranoid!

[chuck34]

If your paranoid!

So there are no countries out there that would benifit from a weakened US?

[Tazio]

None worth buying into the right-wing paranoia machine over!

[chuck34]

None worth buying into the right-wing paranoia machine over!

You're telling me that N Korea and Iran are no threats, and that they want the US to be as strong as we can possibly be? They have no interest in boosting their power in their respective regions, and one way to do so is to make the US weaker?

[Tazio]

You're telling me that N Korea and Iran are no threats, and that they want the US to be as strong as we can possibly be? They have no interest in boosting their power in their respective regions, and one way to do so is to make the US weaker?
No I'm saying that there is no reason to be paranoid, and lose faith in your countries leadership in handling these issues.
Just like there was no reason a 2 months ago for right wing pundits to go berserk,
claiming that Mexico is a, or on the verge of becomming a failed state!
BTW where did that story disapear too :confused:

[chuck34]

No I'm saying that there is no reason to be paranoid, and lose faith in your countries leadership in handling these issues.
Just like there was no reason a 2 months ago for right wing pundits to go berserk,
claiming that Mexico is a, or on the verge of becomming a failed state!
BTW where did that story disapear too :confused:

So far this country's leadership has given me no reason to have faith in them. And I never thought that Mexico would be a failed state. I knew that was just a bunch of hot air. Contrary to popular opinion around here, I do think for myself, I don't just parrott Rush, Shawn, et al.

[janvanvurpa]

If your paranoid!

Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get ya.

Amazing how in just 50 something years I've been around how the "imminent threat" calling for immediate action---which is always more and more higher and higher tech, more and more astronomically expensive weapons sysytems---has.
First it was the Roooskies, never mind that they'd just lost maybe 20% of their entire population killed, another 30% wounded, 60-80% of their industry, their infastructure, railroads, bridges, housing, schools, hopsitals and everything else turned into rubble while we has suffered ZERO damage to ours, and we had lost less than 0.4% total casualties, nope they were on the verge of overrunning the US.
Then it was the Koreans, then it was the Chinese going to overwhelm our borders, and the Cubans, and almost immediately they were beaten to the borders by the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese and were hiding---according to "reliable" sources 5 or 7 or whatever Regular Army NVA divisions in Baja California waiting to swoop into Los Angeles. (Seriously, ordinary looking sober Americans would say this back in late 60s USA)

Then when they had defeated the US, it was a quickly descending spiral: a couple of hundred Cuban Construction troops required a massive US invasion "just in time" to prevent the airport in Granada from opening, then the attention relly got fixated on the Arabiacs cause they're brown and are all Godless heathen Musselmen, and all real Americans are Christians and should be happy to slaughter heathens from 300 miles away or 32,000 feet.
And so its been now for over 25 years with little sideshows training Death Squads all across Central and South America to slaughter all those horrid people brazenly asking for a minimal existence and self determination.

And so to Q8 and Iraq.....and now we just have to do something about Iran and North Korea cause those people are completel irrational, just like all those other countries thru the years have ALL BEEN COMPLETELY IRRATIONAL and they all "hate us because we love Freedom™".

It's just really amazing how we haven't been overrun by the whole world cause aside from Ozzies and Newfies, we've just about had everybody in the world as an imminent threat.

Where would be be if not for all those Defense Industries?

[Eki]

So far this country's leadership has given me no reason to have faith in them.

Yesterday I watched a documentary about the "Iran-Contra" scandal. Hezbollah held some Americans in Lebanon hostage and George Bush Sr secretly promised Iran if they could help to free them and promised they would be rewarded. Iran used its influence on Hezbollah and the hostages were freed. When the Iranians expected at least some sanctions on them would be lifted, the Americans said what the Iranians had done was not enough. The Iranians kept their part of the deal but got back zilch. The Iranian then President Rafsajani they interviewed said that after that he will never trust Americans again, and for a good reason I might say.

[chuck34]

Yesterday I watched a documentary about the "Iran-Contra" scandal. Hezbollah held some Americans in Lebanon hostage and George Bush Sr secretly promised Iran if they could help to free them and promised they would be rewarded. Iran used its influence on Hezbollah and the hostages were freed. When the Iranians expected at least some sanctions on them would be lifted, the Americans said what the Iranians had done was not enough. The Iranians kept their part of the deal but got back zilch. The Iranian then President Rafsajani they interviewed said that after that he will never trust Americans again, and for a good reason I might say.

Ok, do you have a point or do you just like proving mine. My point being that it wont matter what Obama says or does, the Iranians aren't going to like us.

[Eki]

Ok, do you have a point or do you just like proving mine. My point being that it wont matter what Obama says or does, the Iranians aren't going to like us.
Lifting those sanctions might help.

[chuck34]

Lifting those sanctions might help.

Or it could make the US appear weak. Therefore inviting further demands from Iran and other nations. It's a two way street that MUST be walked carefully.

[Eki]

Or it could make the US appear weak.
Or it could make the US look fair and benevolent, which isn't necessarily the same as weak.


It's a two way street
That's not what it looked like when Iran help to free those hostages and got nothing back despite promises. Currently it seems like a one way street: The US demands and others should obey.

[chuck34]

1) Or it could make the US look fair and benevolent, which isn't necessarily the same as weak.


2) That's not what it looked like when Iran help to free those hostages and got nothing back despite promises. Currently it seems like a one way street: The US demands and others should obey.

1) Could be either way, that's what I said.

2) It also didn't look like a two way street when Iran took hostages either. A lot of the time it looks like Iran demands and others should obey. Try taking off your US is evil glasses sometimes and see things from BOTH sides.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well, it is a common rule of civilized nations to NOT negotiate with hijackers. What happened between the US and Iran contradicts THAT. That said, the Iranian revolution more or less was anti-American anyhow, so President Rafsajani could say he didn't trust the USA again, but I suspect it was the truth anyhow.

America isn't perfect Eki, but the Russians and Chinese aren't even half that subtle and I cant recall you ripping them on this inconsistency.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Again...another thread where Eki blames the worlds ills on America. This is getting old....