Gow announces radical NGTC BTCC regs [Archive]

Alfa Fan

2nd June 2009, 10:49

All-new technical regulations that will drastically reduce costs but also further increase the spectacle of the British Touring Car Championship by moving to bigger and more powerful turbo-charged cars have been revealed today.

The ‘Next Generation Touring Car’ (NGTC) regulations will come into force in 2011 and will slash car and engine budgets for teams by some 50 per cent. This will largely be achieved by switching to more durable two-litre turbo engines and the standardising of major components such as sub-frames, gearboxes, suspension and brakes. Furthermore, the NGTC regulations will be based around larger ‘family-sized’ front-wheel-drive cars.

Notably, the NGTC engines will utilise many standard-production internal components and be fitted with a controlled-specification turbo, wastegate, intercooler and ECU (Electronic Control Unit) to reduce both development costs and opportunities for technical infringements. Teams not wishing to undertake their own engine development programme will have the option of using a TOCA-developed (unbranded) NGTC engine that will be equal in performance. It is anticipated that engines should last an entire season without rebuild, thus greatly further reducing costs.

LiamM

2nd June 2009, 11:06

They look very interesting!

Gow has said that the rules have been developed by the current teams - so hopefully the lot of them should be sticking around until 2011 for this new cheap touring cars they have all developed.

Another thing is that as the engine spec has changed it opens up a wide variety of other manufacturers that currently don't have an engine in their range which suits S2000 spec.

dwboogityfan

2nd June 2009, 11:39

Again Alan Gow has managed to bring in a great set of regulations at the right time. The idea reminds me a little of NASCAR's COT.
Hopefully this should get a good mixture of new manufacturors while keeping the independents like Martyn Bell, John George etc who add so much to the championship.
Again the WTCC are left standing by the BTCC!

wedge

2nd June 2009, 12:13

I'm not sure if I'll ever watch BTCC ever again if they run silhouettes.

AndySpeed

2nd June 2009, 16:45

With no manufacturers currently committed to 2010 they didn't have a lot to lose, and with the current teams involved then this looks promising. I hope that the increased amounts of standardization don't diminish the spectacle.

Allyc85

2nd June 2009, 16:48

Sounds very promising, more speed and proper sized touring cars should be great! Just hope theres loads of waste gate chatter when they back off the throttle :D

I am evil Homer

2nd June 2009, 17:13

Sounds horribly like a move towards the NASCAR model. And "Family-sized FWD"...would need more detail on that - so no RWD at all?

At first sight I'm not a fan of these ideas.

VkmSpouge

2nd June 2009, 18:33

Looking at the rules they are clearly designed to cut costs but keep the level of performance up there with the current cars which is a pretty good thing. Using some standardised parts will certainly help keep costs down but I certainly don't think these cars will come anywhere close to silhouettes or NASCAR. Dumping RWD is a shame because we won't have BMW but Alan Gow's reasons (here (http://www.btcc.net/html/generalnews_detail.php?id=1488) on BTCC.net) are pretty sound.

Using teams and those touring car experts, to help with the rules is a good idea as they really should know what they are doing. Basically these rules will offer the same level of performance but for half the price. Good deal for competitors I say!

Also the timing for introducing them in 2011 is a good idea. With any luck the car market will have picked up by then and new rules (and with WTCC in a lot of turmoil) could encourage some manufacturers to come back into the championship, especially with them having to spend less money.

My one concern about these new rules is that it could lead to the BTCC being isolated again like it was before the championship let in Super 2000 cars.

Overall though my impression of these rules is pretty positive and it will be interesting to see which teams decide to build cars to NGTC-spec in 2011.

LiamM

2nd June 2009, 18:44

My one concern about these new rules is that it could lead to the BTCC being isolated again like it was before the championship let in Super 2000 cars.

Well the WTCC rules are set in stone yet, they might think about going back to the drawing board after todays announcement!

UltimateDanGTR

2nd June 2009, 20:54

Brilliant ideas! 'Bigger family sized cars' and more powerful engines lead me to think that the BTCC will become a bit closer to V8 supercars-and thats a good thing!

shame about the fact that we will no longer have BMW's (unless they develop a FWD car in the next few years-which I doubt) and we wont see the Honda civic or Ford Focus-but hopefully we will see things like the Ford Mondeo (again!), and maybe things like the 406? an Alfa? Id love to see an Audi or Merc in there too-we could actually see a great championship again!

and I wouldnt discount bigger grids either..............

good news. good future.

christophulus

2nd June 2009, 21:04

Seems like a good idea, well thought out and has the support of the teams. Plus the cars might end up faster and cheaper too.

The loss of the RWD cars is a shame, the front and rear drive cars at the moment seem pretty equal but I understand the logic for doing what they are doing. And the Integras will finally have to be pensioned off at the end of next year!

Therefore, tentative :up: from me

Eurotech

2nd June 2009, 21:10

im not really sure what difference the bigger cars will make but it should be good!

UltimateDanGTR

2nd June 2009, 21:14

This just shows how much better and more sensible the MSA is compared to the FIA.

anyway-interesting point I noticed here on the BTCC website:
http://www.btcc.net/html/generalnews_detail.php?id=1489

at the end of the 'Chassis' section, it says that cars could cost £100K plus engine for a 'ready to race' car, compared to 'in excess' of £200K for a Super 2000 chassis.

now, thats very good, and the cost of running a team can be dramatically reduced-alot more affordable-and that means more entrants-I think we really will see more entrants-maybe up to 30?

seems to me the BTCC can be more achievable than ever. when you actually think about it, this is EXTREMELY GOOD for the BTCC-faster cars, closer racing (didnt know that was even possible!), cheaper costs for teams, and maybe more entrants.

not bad...........

philipbain

2nd June 2009, 22:09

Here we go again, in 1991 Super Touring was introduced because the old class A had become too expensive (though didn't you just love those 550BHP Sierras!!), then by the end of the 90s Super Touring became a victim of it's own success, manufacturers manipulated it into becoming cost prohibitive, in 2001 the BTCC regs are introduced, the FIA prior to 2001 were on the brink of making their Super 2000 rules for 2002 and beyond very similar to the BTCC rule set until BMW stuck their oar in insisting a some key differences, mainly to do with body types, BTCC allowed for 2 door coupés, Super 2000 insisted on 4 door bodies, plus less race homologated parts were allowed in S2000 which actually tends to increase costs as assemblies have to be rebuilt more often, burning through more parts. Now S2000 is deemed cost prohibitive and the BTCC go back to what looks like a more extreme version of the original BTCC rule set, allowing for more standardised homologated parts but this time with long life turbo engines which produce a similar amount of power but being turbo will provide a more punchy torque curve and ultimately be faster. I like the look of the new regs, and with a lack of manufacturer support the series need to look closely at costs.

Eurotech

2nd June 2009, 23:10

I hope these cars will have turbo-lag because that will make the drivers have to corner faster and probably start sliding sideways a bit.

VX_Rules

2nd June 2009, 23:28

Oooh a boost button in 2013! Long way off though :(

Is it me or do these rules sound as if they are written for an Insiginia? :P

I can see Vauxhall coming back in. Quite soon. Fingers crossed!

Brown, Jon Brow

2nd June 2009, 23:44

It's a shame about losing RWD. I don't see how making restrictions on FWD, RWD, 4WD is going to attract more manufacturers. Considering that BMW are the make that all Touring Car teams want to beat.

Although I suppose this just means we wont be seeing BMW, Mercedes or Lexus.
Still sounds positive, but big, powerful, Turbo-charged RWD cars would make a better spectacle.

One thing I like about the new rules are bigger wheels. BTC-spec and Super2000 wheels looked like they had shopping trolley wheels compared with the late SuperTourers.

wedge

2nd June 2009, 23:52

Sorry, but this sounds like BTCC turning into a joke. If I wanted to watch spec/silhouettes/standardised RWD I'd watch NASCAR, DTM and V8SC.

The reason I enjoy BTCC is because I enjoy a variety of cars be it diesels, FWD, RWD, saloons, hatchbacks without silly ballast regs to spice up the racing.

BDunnell

3rd June 2009, 17:49

I don't think this looks like becoming a silhouette formula at all, though I agree about it being a shame that RWD isn't an option, not that many manufacturers would ever take it up. Perhaps this is an indication of BMW's lack of intentions about being a manufacturer participant in the future? But the reasoning behind it is very well argued.

Allyc85

3rd June 2009, 17:57

Silhouettes arnt mentioned anywhere in the press release so I dont know why people are going on about it..

BDunnell

3rd June 2009, 19:53

Silhouettes arnt mentioned anywhere in the press release so I dont know why people are going on about it..

Because of the TOCA engine that will be available to those who want it, I'd imagine.

LiamM

3rd June 2009, 20:19

Because of the TOCA engine that will be available to those who want it, I'd imagine.

And? F1 will have a 'stock' engine from next year? Whats the big difference? If its competitive whats the big deal?

wedge

4th June 2009, 00:19

http://www.btcc.net/html/generalnews_detail.php?id=1489

Production bodyshell with a standardised roll cage design/specification. Front & rear subframes to incorporate specified suspension/brake components and engine location.

Bespoke TOCA-sourced components for some major items such as gearbox, suspension, brakes, dampers, sub-frames and suchlike – thus taking tens of thousands of pounds out of the costs of designing and developing these for each team.

Sounds like they're taking the sihouette route.

Rollo

4th June 2009, 02:17

In principle will this produce a series something akin to the tourer equivalent of Grand-Am? In theory you can run any engine in any chassis provided they're both compliant.

The DTM is already a glorified prototype series with those cars bearing only a passing resemblance to their road-going namesakes. I don't necessarily see this as being a bad thing.

wedge

4th June 2009, 12:19

DTM has generally been on the exotic side of things.

Just go back to being production based, stock brake discs & pads, stock suspension components ie. springs and dampers.

I am evil Homer

4th June 2009, 13:24

Losing BMW is a big shame for me given their tintop pedigree and while I welcome cost reduction I think this is the wrong route.

And from all reports it does sound like a silhouette as even with a manu production shell, changing subframes for standardised components smacks of the Aussie V8's and chopping a chassis up to fit the specs.

VkmSpouge

4th June 2009, 19:18

Nah, it isn't silhouette, it just has more standardised parts than the previous regulations.

I am evil Homer

5th June 2009, 09:17

Well it certainly isn't a production car either with so many common components regardless fo whether it's a Ford, Honda, Seat or whatever. It may well mean a return to more private teams running operations as I fail to see what a manufactuters is going to get out of it aside from marketing.

Mark

5th June 2009, 10:36

Brown, Jon Brow

5th June 2009, 11:25

Sounds good to me! Pity they aren't bringing it in sooner.

It's long been the case that the BTCC cars are too small. They should be Mondeo sized as in they days of Super Touring, not Focus sized.

And they need to be much more powerful, not necessarily faster, you can take away the grip at the same time, but the cars look slow and planted at the moment, whereas you want them to look fast and a bit of a handful!

Getting rid of RWD is good IMO, equality forumlae never work, and the vast majority of cars on the road are FWD. Who cares about BMW's? Everyone hates BMW drivers anyway!

True, but BMW are to touring cars what Ferrari are to F1. Plus RWD cars are more exciting to watch with their tail out action.

I hope they don't go over the top with bodykits, as they did with BTC-touring.

Lousada

5th June 2009, 11:40

Do I understand this correct: standard suspension and standard engine. Doesn't this mean that the only thing different is the shape of the cars? Wouldn't that quickly lead to one preferred shape of car while all the others are uncompetitive?

Mark

5th June 2009, 11:51

True, but BMW are to touring cars what Ferrari are to F1. Plus RWD cars are more exciting to watch with their tail out action.

I hope they don't go over the top with bodykits, as they did with BTC-touring.

Not for me they aren't. BMW have been in and out of the BTCC more times than I've had hot dinners, they've never really been serious about touring car racing in the UK so we shouldn't design series regs just to accomodate them.

AndySpeed

5th June 2009, 11:55

I am evil Homer

5th June 2009, 11:57

"accomodate" isn't really right though is it....you're blocking them just like the Aussie V8 rules block people through being too strict. Costs clearly need to be reduced in order to make the series more attractice...I just feel saying FWD only is an error.

I'm all for larger cars being used though :)

wedge

5th June 2009, 13:10

Sounds good to me! Pity they aren't bringing it in sooner.

It's long been the case that the BTCC cars are too small. They should be Mondeo sized as in they days of Super Touring, not Focus sized.

And they need to be much more powerful, not necessarily faster, you can take away the grip at the same time, but the cars look slow and planted at the moment, whereas you want them to look fast and a bit of a handful!

Getting rid of RWD is good IMO, equality forumlae never work, and the vast majority of cars on the road are FWD. Who cares about BMW's? Everyone hates BMW drivers anyway!

True, but there should be a mixture of cars, ideally more saloons than hatchbacks.

RWD tend to be the better spectacle IMO.

Not for me they aren't. BMW have been in and out of the BTCC more times than I've had hot dinners, they've never really been serious about touring car racing in the UK so we shouldn't design series regs just to accomodate them.

So have every other manufacturer bar Vauxhall.

Manufacturers jump in and out whenever they feel like it.

BDunnell

5th June 2009, 15:44

Not for me they aren't. BMW have been in and out of the BTCC more times than I've had hot dinners, they've never really been serious about touring car racing in the UK so we shouldn't design series regs just to accomodate them.

They were pretty serious when they spent more money than anybody had ever done on a BTCC campaign in 1993, and when they enlisted Gordon Murray to help design their car in '96.

PDS

5th June 2009, 16:07

Not for me they aren't. BMW have been in and out of the BTCC more times than I've had hot dinners, they've never really been serious about touring car racing in the UK so we shouldn't design series regs just to accomodate them.

Just goes to show how much BMW are thought of in touring cars... Why when people talk about RWD cars that automatically talk about BMW?

BMW are not the only manufacturer to produce a RWD car! Lexus and Mercedes spring to mind. Subaru could run RWD along with other manufacturers.. ALL being denied entry in the future..

In that respect, the new regs are not looking towards the future, they are trying to amend the past!

LiamM

5th June 2009, 17:00

Some C-Class Mercs are FWD (among others)

What people seem to be missing is that

a) currently BMW are assessing their position in the WTCC and might not even be around next year!
b) the FIA is currently making up their own regs around a 1.6 turbo engine, which will cost more, its the way touring cars are going

PDS

5th June 2009, 17:30

a) currently BMW are assessing their position in the WTCC and might not even be around next year!

Perhaps they were considering leaving the WTCC to join the BTCC???? You never know.

LiamM

5th June 2009, 20:19

Perhaps they were considering leaving the WTCC to join the BTCC???? You never know.

They still have a good 3 years of being competitive in the UK

Lousada

6th June 2009, 13:09

The cars will be tested in the windtunnel to ensure aerodynamic parity though.

Yes, but what about weight distribution, balance that sort of stuff?

Caroline

6th June 2009, 15:19

Look forward to seeing this happen. :) It can only make the BTCC stronger.

Allyc85

7th June 2009, 12:30

Had a bad thought yesterday. Like the next gen cars the Group n rally cars are 2 litre, turbo charged with a restrictor and sound so flat and boring. I really hope the NGTC cars sound nothing like them!

An example of group N http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3sdwpd__rQ

Captain VXR

7th June 2009, 18:10

Allyc85

7th June 2009, 21:07

I hope they sound like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqRFcNFBa3s

Yea, wouldnt complain lol :D

PDS

7th June 2009, 22:44

I would rather they sounded like this..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkxxpMI__5o&feature=related

WSRfan82

9th June 2009, 15:50

wow sounds interesting

any idea what the cars would look like?

BTCC2

9th June 2009, 20:02

Less like the base models.

Abo

10th June 2009, 17:51

Subaru could run RWD along with other manufacturers.. ALL being denied entry in the future..

You could argue that Subaru could run FWD and enter...

WSRfan82

20th June 2009, 00:34

i know its not relavent but thought this could be the next btcc. fwd or rwd

Pug 407 & 307
Mitsi Lancer
Chevy/Opel Astra & Vectra

and it sounds like the good old days of v8 motors

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JrptlB9jRs&feature=related

christophulus

22nd June 2009, 15:33

LiamM

22nd June 2009, 15:59

They mentioned on the ITV coverage from Croft that the RWD cars hadn't been entirely ruled out - Motorbase & RAC are particularly keen to keep the BMWs so the rules can change yet.

Refreshing to see some maturity in deciding rule changes unlike some other series...

S2000 cars will still be competitive for a few years yet, so RAC and Motorbase will see a return on their investment, just by about 2012 they need to start thinking about a new car that is front drive