Hendrick at it AGAIN.......Problems with the 24 in post race inspection

[slorydn1]

John Darby is poking around under the 24 during post race inspection...
He doesn't look happy.....

[slorydn1]

Let me be a little more clear....during the template portion of post race inspection an inspector saw "something" he didn't like...they pulled his car out of that room and put it in another bay and pushed the press back...Wendy Venturini reported that John darby showed up, changed clothes, and got under the car...after that he came out and was discussing the situation with Robin Pemberton, and neither looked real happy...
Nothing else reported yet.....

Still watching speed to find out more...

[dont_be_jack]

Funny, all this after he had said in an interview with ESPN that he wouldn't ever want to be part of something like this...

[slorydn1]

Post Inspection Problem with #24? SPEED's Victory Lane show is reporting NASCAR is looking hard at the #24-Jeff Gordon car that won the 2nd Gatorade Duel 150 race, supposedly something with the templates.(2-15-2006)
http://www.jayski.com/cupnews.htm

[harvick#1]

here we go again, if nascar does determine the car is illegal and doesn't not give a points deduction of more than 50 and suspensions, all hell will break loose

but if they did fail the templates, Hendrick will say that during the race, the car changed that was unavoidable :rolleyes: and he'll be forgiven.

[slorydn1]

What I am finding strange, is that other than the 2 minute report on Nascar Victory lane and the Blurb on Jayski, there's been nothing.....
If everything is ok, I wish someone would come out and say it...
Contrary to what most people may believe, I actually hope everything is OK
and this was all much adieu about nothing....I don't think I can take another cheating controversy this weekend.....

[harvick#1]

oh I can, espcially if its a Hendrick car :D

Ban the Driver, the car, the team for 36 races :devil:

[slorydn1]

Update: The car may have been too low....Nascar looking at a shock mount
according to Wendy Venturini.....

No further at this time....

[slorydn1]

NASCAR.COM now has a "Breaking News" banner on the news page of their site, but all they are saying is that the 24 is still going through post race, with details to follow.....no details yet....

[djarumdudley]

if the car "settled" wrong it might be relatively minor, though it still amazes me how a car can pass pre-qualifying/race tech and then fail. could there possibly be a Nascar fix then? let a car pass in pre-inspection knowing there are infractions. then scrutinize and fail the car knowing full well it won't pass post race?

[slorydn1]

Settleing may very well have been the problem...what gets me was at the beginning, when Darby was conferring with Pemberton...He was making hand signals while talking and it just looked like he was describing that something was improperly mounted...........just a guess, anyway

[slorydn1]

BREAKING NEWS: THE 24 CITED FORT BEING TOO LOW...WILL START 42ND.....

Nascar.com reports in a banner headline on the news page....

[dont_be_jack]

Seems a bit odd since it wasn't found before. Did something break or an issue with tire pressure or what? Or is this just the same old **** that we hear about?

[harvick#1]

:mad:

again, no points will be deducted. so the next time this happens to another team, they will get a severe penalty :mad:

he should get at least 25 points for failing post inspection.

If nascar wanted to make punishments more severe they just failed again...Hendrick Motorsports can get away with murder with their penalities

[slorydn1]

ESPN.COM Reports:

Highs And Lows
Michael Waltrip raced his way into the Daytona 500. Jeff Gordon won his Duel race, but his car failed inspection.

[slorydn1]

Calm down...Nascar hasn't said anything official yet...no details are being provided yet, apparently...

Nothing more on Speed TV yet, still watching NCTS Qualifying...

[slorydn1]

Ok, now its time to get PISSED:


".....It was the second consecutive win for Gordon in a Daytona qualifying race and the fourth of his career but he won't benefit from it at the start of the 500. He will start the race 42nd because his car failed inspection. The infraction made his car about an inch low, but was deemed a failed part, and not intentional......"

ESPN.Com's Terry Blount reports....

[slorydn1]

http://www.nascar.com/2007/news/headlines/cup/02/15/jgordon.duels.inspection/index.html

[dont_be_jack]

So if it was a failed part let him keep the spot. It was nothing that he or anyone could do anything about.

[harvick#1]

Calm down...Nascar hasn't said anything official yet...no details are being provided yet, apparently...



I saw it on Nascar.com.

they said he will start 42nd but not be penalized points :mad:

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: Gordon's # 24 failed post-race inspection... ~ one inch too low....

NA$CAR... Blamed it on part failure !

[slorydn1]

So if it was a failed part let him keep the spot. It was nothing that he or anyone could do anything about.


According to Pemberton it was a "Misaligned" part...Not a failed part...
Whose to say that the part wasn't Misaligned intentionally?

Just like missing tape, maybe?


I'm not necessarily saying it was intentional. In fact, if it wasn't intentional, let him keep his spot. But, if it was, then he needs to be hammered just like everyone else.....
Not just slapped on the wrist....

[dont_be_jack]

According to Pemberton it was a "Misaligned" part...Not a failed part...
Whose to say that the part wasn't Misaligned intentionally?

Just like missing tape, maybe?


I'm not necessarily saying it was intentional. In fact, if it wasn't intentional, let him keep his spot. But, if it was, then he needs to be hammered just like everyone else.....
Not just slapped on the wrist....

That I agree with. If it was intentional, hammer him. If it wasn't and happened during the race, tough, but he should keep the spot. All I've read is failed, not misaligned.

[slorydn1]

Strangley enough, nothing said on TV about it yet....

NCTS Quals still on SPEED....

[harvick#1]

I'd like to see what Nascar would've done if Berrier was in the shoes.

[slorydn1]

That I agree with. If it was intentional, hammer him. If it wasn't and happened during the race, tough, but he should keep the spot. All I've read is failed, not misaligned.



....Gordon's car was deemed "close to an inch" too low, according to NASCAR officials, due to the fact that a bolt on the shock fastener was misaligned.......

http://www.nascar.com/2007/news/headlines/cup/02/15/jgordon.duels.inspection/index.html

[harvick#1]

an inch is huge for Daytona, even if it was misaligned or broken. it was a huge advantage for Aero

[slorydn1]

Its now on TV: Pemberton being interviewed....car was an inch low...
he used the word "failed" on TV...serrations not matched up when the shock was mounted.....the "part" was confiscated by NASCAR....
Venturini used the word "Misaligned"

[slorydn1]

Larry Mac says he understands exactly what Pemberton was saying, and that he doesn't belive it was intentional but he brought up previous precedent of fines and point penalties for being too low...

Mikey Waltrip sided with NASCAR on the lack of penalties for the 24

[dont_be_jack]

Its now on TV: Pemberton being interviewed....car was an inch low...
he used the word "failed" on TV...serrations not matched up when the shock was mounted.....the "part" was confiscated by NASCAR....
Venturini used the word "Misaligned"

"Misaligned" by "failure"?

[harvick#1]

didn't this happen to Johnson and Busch when at Vegas in 04 and nascar gave him no penalty after the overruling :mad:

[harvick#1]

Mikey Waltrip sided with NASCAR on the lack of penalties for the 24

for once I agree with Mikey :up:

[slorydn1]

Larry Mac said on speed that when the shock guy was turning the bolt the edges must have hit a hard stop (kinda like a zippper on a jacket not being aligned and the zipper just stops....) So the tech must have stopped "screwing" thinking it was tight and the first time Jeff hit a bump on the track it would have come apart....

[harvick#1]

but still it was a good call as Gordons car had a huge aero advantage being another inch lower compared to the field. but ashamed that Nascar doesn't keep their word on their harsher punishments

[slorydn1]

but still it was a good call as Gordons car had a huge aero advantage being another inch lower compared to the field. but ashamed that Nascar doesn't keep their word on their harsher punishments


I both agree and disagree:

If it was a failed part then there should have been NO penalty at all, including the loss of a starting spot...

But Since Nascar was concerned enough to send him to the back, then they should have hammerd him just like everyone else...

This halfway deal smacks of favoritism....

[dont_be_jack]

Larry Mac said on speed that when the shock guy was turning the bolt the edges must have hit a hard stop (kinda like a zippper on a jacket not being aligned and the zipper just stops....) So the tech must have stopped "screwing" thinking it was tight and the first time Jeff hit a bump on the track it would have come apart....

You mean the thread on the bolt got stuck and felt like it was tight? Funny, when that happens to me doing anything with a bolt or screw I know that the thread is stuck. It's a completely different feel than a tight bolt or screw.

[dont_be_jack]

I both agree and disagree:

If it was a failed part then there should have been NO penalty at all, including the loss of a starting spot...

But Since Nascar was concerned enough to send him to the back, then they should have hammerd him just like everyone else...

This halfway deal smacks of favoritism....

But do you penelize him as harsh as the 55 or the 9 or 17? Those were most likely blatant attempts at cheating - at least the 55 is - and deserved the harshest penalties possible. As for the 24 - is it really that terrible compared to a foreign substance in the manifold? Or the possibility that it failed and may have been the fault of someone making a mistake?

[slorydn1]

You mean the thread on the bolt got stuck and felt like it was tight? Funny, when that happens to me doing anything with a bolt or screw I know that the thread is stuck. It's a completely different feel than a tight bolt or screw.


I agree there....

[slorydn1]

#24-Jeff Gordon will start 42nd in Sunday's Daytona 500 after failing post-race inspection following the second of Thursday's two 150-mile qualifying races. Because the infraction -- the rear panel was almost an inch low -- was not considered intentional to create a competitive advantage Gordon will be allowed to keep his victory in the race. Robin Pemberton, NASCAR's vice president for competition, said no further penalties would be levied against Gordon's team. It was the third straight day NASCAR's governing body passed out penalties at Daytona International Speedway. Gordon was unaware of the issue until informed during his post-race interview. "That would really suck," he said. Pemberton said the shock fastener and spacers used to hold the rear shocks that are installed during pre-race preparation for restrictor plate races were misaligned. He said it likely was a mistake made by the mechanic. "We felt it was unintentional," Pemberton said. "Actually, it was unsafe. We felt it was a part failure and unintentionally done."(ESPN.com)(2-15-2006)

[harvick#1]

yes it is, I work with that and you can easily tell if a bolt is stuck, plus, it would be sticking out, so how could you not see that.

[harvick#1]

#24-Jeff Gordon will start 42nd in Sunday's Daytona 500 after failing post-race inspection following the second of Thursday's two 150-mile qualifying races. Because the infraction -- the rear panel was almost an inch low -- was not considered intentional to create a competitive advantage Gordon will be allowed to keep his victory in the race.

:laugh:

thats what happened to Harvick at Dega in the NBS race and he was docked 25 points (like it mattered much) and his crew chief was suspended for 4 races.

[dont_be_jack]

yes it is, I work with that and you can easily tell if a bolt is stuck, plus, it would be sticking out, so how could you not see that.

Even if it were to look like it's completely in, it's an obvious feel when there's all that extra friction on the bolt than normal.

[slorydn1]

But do you penelize him as harsh as the 55 or the 9 or 17? Those were most likely blatant attempts at cheating - at least the 55 is - and deserved the harshest penalties possible. As for the 24 - is it really that terrible compared to a foreign substance in the manifold? Or the possibility that it failed and may have been the fault of someone making a mistake?

There's the rub...I really don't believe the 17, 10, 9, or 19 really did anything wrong, certainly not wrong enough for crew cheifs to be sent home....but since they were, you have the goose and gander situation...

[Lee Roy]

There's the rub...I really don't believe the 17, 10, 9, or 19 really did anything wrong, certainly not wrong enough for crew cheifs to be sent home....but since they were, you have the goose and gander situation...

From what I understand, the #17 had drilled out the center of some rivets to let air through and lower the rear of the car. That seems to be pretty blatant and intentional. There still seems to be some doubt that what Gordon's team did was just an honest mistake.

Now, I agree that the #24 should get the penalty that they did, even if it was just a mistake on their part. The car was too low, you can't excuse that. But, do you impose capital punishment for jay-walking?

[slorydn1]

From what I understand, the #17 had drilled out the center of some rivets to let air through and lower the rear of the car. That seems to be pretty blatant and intentional. There still seems to be some doubt that what Gordon's team did was just an honest mistake.

Now, I agree that the #24 should get the penalty that they did, even if it was just a mistake on their part. The car was too low, you can't excuse that. But, do you impose capital punishment for jay-walking?


That was the 19 and 10...the bolts were drilled and all the teams having been doing that to save weight for eons....the 9 and 17 got busted for not properly closing up the hole between the trunk and the oil cooler box...the tape was gone completely on the 9, and the 17 the hole was taped up but some one had put "slices" through the tape...

Apparently that hole exists on all the cars (not sure why) but apparently theres a rule that they be closed off....

By the way, I wasn't advocating the 24 get the ultra harsh penalty the 55 got...I just remember Harvicks crew cheif hitting the road for being low, for shock doors opening at dega, etc....

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: What does "mis-aligned" mean ?

Either the bolt shifted when racing... ie. a mechanical failure.

Or the bolt was inproperly installed... ie. cheating !

I guess in NA$CAR talk... it IS what IT is.... :rolleyes:

[BobbyC]

If this was at Talladega, Lowe's, or any circuit recently paved in the past three years, it would be blatant.

Daytona has not been repaved since late 1978. This is 28-year old pavement which is much rougher than the local roads. Even at 55 MPH, you hit such pavement, you could break your shock.

[Chandler]

Ok, so Gordon doesn't get any penalty, huh?

Typical.

(insert Gordon apologists screaming about "wasn't his fault", "wasn't as bad as what the others did", "there's no favoritism in NASCAR!" here)

[blakebeatty]

If this was at Talladega, Lowe's, or any circuit recently paved in the past three years, it would be blatant.

Daytona has not been repaved since late 1978. This is 28-year old pavement which is much rougher than the local roads. Even at 55 MPH, you hit such pavement, you could break your shock.

brilliant point. (insert Gordon apologists screaming about "wasn't his fault", "wasn't as bad as what the others did", "there's no favoritism in NASCAR!" here) only due to the fact that it is the obvious case.

anyone who believed there was any hendrick favoritism lost their argument last year at daytona.

and further to that, no one would be stupid enough to try to cheat after the severity of the penalites handed out thus far.

to anyone who posted "favoritism", give your head a shake. watch the youtube video where that guy freaks out after vickers spins Jr and Jimmie at Talladega, and realize that the man in the video is you

[call_me_andrew]

Ok, so Gordon doesn't get any penalty, huh?

You mean other than starting last?

[kelloggs5TLfan]

You mean other than starting last?

Is that really a penalty at Daytona?

[R. Mears]

Is that really a penalty at Daytona?
Yes, especially in a restrictor plate race. It not only puts you a half a lap down from the start you are also in prime position to be involved in "the big one" should anything happen early.

[Hoss Ghoul]

Much ado about nothing if you ask me.

An unintentional parts failure in a qualifying race. Any advantage is lost, since Gordon has to start at the rear, and since it's not clear there was any intent to cheat, a points penalty is out of place.

Really, 25 points wouldn't mean jack anyways...

[dont_be_jack]

Ok, so Gordon doesn't get any penalty, huh?

Typical.

(insert Gordon apologists screaming about "wasn't his fault", "wasn't as bad as what the others did", "there's no favoritism in NASCAR!" here)

It wasn't his fault. If it was a parts failure or a tech inspector feeling like something was the way it was supposed to be but wasn't, that's nothing Gordon has control over. It's nowhere near as bad as a foreign substance in the manifold, and while I can't dispute that there isn't favoritism - let's face it, how many times have we seen cautions thrown with Junior was about to get lapped - I don't think you can claim that here.

[harvick#1]

Is that really a penalty at Daytona?

no, I would say in 15 laps, Gordon will be in the top 10. plate races do not matter where you qualify

[tassiedevilAB]

This will be interesting for poor Jeffy', being back in a mean pack, they might remember a few hits from him in the past, watch out Jeffy'

[cgs]

being sent to the back is no penalty what-so-ever. you can quite easily be at the front after 500 miles. and as for avoiding the big one, some people CHOOSE to be at the back for the first few hundred miles.

[CREWDAWG]

Seems strange that he was put back because nascar had stated after inspection that it was a failure and not the teams fault. He was to keep the win and everyone was happy. Even today's fla newspapers are saying "failed inspection but gets to keep the win" So I suspect other teams put in their 2 cents and nascar moved him back to 42nd. I know the Ray E. cars are upset that the drilled bolts are well know by nascar but they chosed to hammer them this year for doing it so he's going to fight those two fails which kind of falls in line with the 24 deal. So maybe that's came into play with 24 car issue. Where will it stop...LOL

I see know that he did indeed keep the win, but starts 42nd

[blakebeatty]

being sent to the back is no penalty what-so-ever. you can quite easily be at the front after 500 miles. and as for avoiding the big one, some people CHOOSE to be at the back for the first few hundred miles.

good thing, as it was determined that he deserved NO PENALTY WHAT-SO-EVER

[muggle not]

Much ado about nothing if you ask me.

An unintentional parts failure in a qualifying race. Any advantage is lost, since Gordon has to start at the rear, and since it's not clear there was any intent to cheat, a points penalty is out of place.

Really, 25 points wouldn't mean jack anyways...

You are correct but it did give the anti-Gordon folks a chance to "bitch". :)

[kelloggs5TLfan]

no, I would say in 15 laps, Gordon will be in the top 10. plate races do not matter where you qualify
I agree.


Much ado about nothing if you ask me.

An unintentional parts failure in a qualifying race. Any advantage is lost, since Gordon has to start at the rear, and since it's not clear there was any intent to cheat, a points penalty is out of place.

Really, 25 points wouldn't mean jack anyways...


One question, How would Nascar know (for sure) it wasn't intentionally installed to cause a parts failure to lower the car?

[Rex Monaco]

This race is looking more and more like the strategy should be to place second so that after the post race inspections you can end up in first place.

[blakebeatty]

I agree.




One question, How would Nascar know (for sure) it wasn't intentionally installed to cause a parts failure to lower the car?

you could not prove that it was. what are you proposing, a forensic psycholgical investigation?

and "This race is looking more and more like the strategy should be to place second so that after the post race inspections you can end up in first place" is likely the funniest thing i have heard all week. i bet this is the weekend that they would finally say enough is enough, and take away a win...

[kelloggs5TLfan]

you could not prove that it was. what are you proposing, a forensic psycholgical investigation?

and "This race is looking more and more like the strategy should be to place second so that after the post race inspections you can end up in first place" is likely the funniest thing i have heard all week. i bet this is the weekend that they would finally say enough is enough, and take away a win...

Common curosity, is that ok??

[Peter Olivola]

No, it's not. You can't create/enforce rules on that basis. Rules aren't written to require proof of intent because it's extremely difficult to prove intent, especially when the crews are smarter than the rules makers/enforcers.


Common curosity, is that ok??

[slorydn1]

I have had a chance to sleep on it and think some more...

The car was low. Nascar deemed there was a need for a penalty for it being low, being sent to the back. Just like if there had been a violation of the one engine rule. To the back he goes. So maube there was no need for any further penalties.

Personally, I think points penalties when there are no points on the line to start with is ridiculous.

If there are no points to be gained (quals, exibition races, even in pre race inspection) then why take points?

Now, if the violations come in the main event (any of the 36 points races) there should be a fortiture of ALL the points gained in that race, the prize money, maybe a further monetary fine (depending on what the violation was) and maybe even suspensions.

I guess another thing that gets me is this question:
Is a rule violation "cheating"?
When there is a Holding penalty in a football game, is that cheating?
Or is it just a violation of the rules where a correction can be made in the middle of the game and nothing happens afterward.

Food for thought, anyway....

[tstran17_88]

I just love the consistency of the penalties handed out by Nascar.

Kenseth and Kahne get 10 years in jail for jay walking.

Waltrip gets 20 years in jail for murder.

And Gordon gets 5 days in jail for knocking over a liquor store. :rolleyes:

[kelloggs5TLfan]

Common curosity, is that ok??


No, it's not. You can't create/enforce rules on that basis. Rules aren't written to require proof of intent because it's extremely difficult to prove intent, especially when the crews are smarter than the rules makers/enforcers.

It's not ok to ask a question out of curosity. Got ya.


Rules aren't written to require proof of intent because it's extremely difficult to prove intent, especially when the crews are smarter than the rules makers/enforcers.

That's why I ask the following question. Common curosity/ learning question. I don't remember anything about wanting to change/rewrite rules. LOL Have a good day.


I agree.




One question, How would Nascar know (for sure) it wasn't intentionally installed to cause a parts failure to lower the car?

[CREWDAWG]

It doesn't matter, the car was low so they are forced to enforce. Speed showed the cut away car and stated gordon's crew used a serated plated type mount that either came loose or was tightened wrong (grooves not aligned) and shock was moving up and down inside the mount. They don't know which but stated it came loose neverless causing the quarter panel to be lower in that corner. They went with moving to rear cause they don't know if someone crewmember did it by accident or on purpose. Either they had to do something.... We now return you to Bush quals.....

[Jonesi]

you could not prove that it was. what are you proposing, a forensic psycholgical investigation?

and "This race is looking more and more like the strategy should be to place second so that after the post race inspections you can end up in first place" is likely the funniest thing i have heard all week. i bet this is the weekend that they would finally say enough is enough, and take away a win...

First, they impound and throughly check the top several (top 5?) cars.
Second, Nascar has a stated policy to NEVER take a win away. I think it was Bill France Jr who said something like "When fans leave the track having celebrated a racer's win, they win never get home to find someone else won." I don't expect that to ever change (they're too media savvy), just fines, points & suspensions to increase.

We've also seen unreasonably high fines for infractions, that could not have been intentional or offered a competitive advantage. Offhand I recall a few years ago a fully sponsored team showed up at Daytona with a set of belts too old to use (were legal up to previous Dec 31). Rusty Wallace's CC was fined a few years ago for fiberglass(?) instead of metal roof flaps. They were short a certain type of chassis, pulled an old one out, but it was the one they had worked with Nascar on the development of the roof flaps, then Nascar decided let's go with metal on those. Nobody tried to cheat, just somebody fail to check on everything.

[dont_be_jack]

There may be a point in which NASCAR needs to take away a win and it could easily come this weekend. If the infraction by the winning team were severe enough to warrant it and there was a damn good reason to believe it was intentional then it could happen.

[slorydn1]

There may be a point in which NASCAR needs to take away a win and it could easily come this weekend. If the infraction by the winning team were severe enough to warrant it and there was a damn good reason to believe it was intentional then it could happen.

Not so sure....Back in the 80's Richard Petty had an oversize engine...If they didn't take that win away, I don't believe they ever will.....

[kelloggs5TLfan]

DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. - Jeff Burton certainly wouldn't be in the business of defending people unnecessarily, but after personally inspecting the part from Jeff Gordon's Gatorade Duel car, he thinks the penalty fit the crime.

Gordon's car was found to have a quarterpanel that was about an inch too low following Thursday night's qualifying race at Daytona International Speedway. NASCAR studied the part and found that a bolt had been misaligned when it was inserted. The sanctioning body deemed that the violation was unintentional and penalized Gordon by moving him from the fourth starting spot in Sunday's Daytona 500 that he gained by winning the Duel to the 42nd starting spot.


Burton, a self-described proponent of large penalties, went to the NASCAR truck on Friday morning to inspect the part himself. He was looking for any signs that it had been intentionally altered but didn't find any.

"I was concerned about that this morning, " Burton said. "The part was confiscated, so I went and looked at the part, and it's my opinion that what happened with the 24 car was a screwup, and I'm also of the opinion that probably, on the race track, there was not much performance gain because on the race track the car is different than in the height sticks ... The question is, what should the penalty be,? Mistake or not, it has to be a penalty. My concern was the penalty wasn't steep enough in relation to the other penalties."

After studying the part, Burton decided the penalty was correct.

"As seen by me, I think the penalty fit the crime," the Richard Childress Racing driver said.

[slorydn1]

Well, i guess if its good enough for Jeff "Hang-em High" Burton, its good enough for me...

:beer:

[kelloggs5TLfan]

Well, i guess if its good enough for Jeff "Hang-em High" Burton, its good enough for me...

:beer:

:D

[TXJOE]

After watching the race and hearing JG talk about the poor performance of the car during the race , it appears on the surface that nothing was done on purpose and Burton's remarks seem to back it up.

GaaNasty looks like the team to beat but after all it is Daytona so its all up in the air.

[dont_be_jack]

Not so sure....Back in the 80's Richard Petty had an oversize engine...If they didn't take that win away, I don't believe they ever will.....

Are you going to **** with Richard Petty?

[slorydn1]

Are you going to **** with Richard Petty?


Not my job...it was Nascar's job, and they set the precedent way back then that they weren't going to take a race win away, even for blatant cheating....

[trumperZ06]

:dozey: NA$CAR allowed Cheating (nod nod & wink wink)... in the early years.
They didn't really try to discourage it until the last year or so.

Now Family France is paying the fiddler... and it's proving... for everyone involved...

EMBARRASSING !