Snoozefest

[Colin_Harvey]

Today's race was a complete snoozefest - barely any overtaking, no green flag pitstops or alternative fuel strategies. A long train of cars, with nobody able to pass unless on a restart.

In other words, a procession.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Today's race was a complete snoozefest - barely any overtaking, no green flag pitstops or alternative fuel strategies. A long train of cars, with nobody able to pass unless on a restart.

In other words, a procession.

TROLL ALERT you and your 37 posts

[call_me_andrew]

Unless you want to count all those passes with Penske and Ganassi. Or Briscoe's short fueling on the second to last stop. Or the Way Tags was able to go from last to 11th.

It wasn't the best 500, but it was a good 500.

[NickFalzone]

The last 20 laps were good. The rest was a mixed bag. Not one of the best 500s I've witnessed, but it had its moments. I think that the best driver with the best equipment and the best team won, so contrary to what others say, I think that's a good thing. Mostly clean racing. Overall though I enjoyed the race that ABC decided to show every once in awhile when they took a break from airing commercials. I think there was actually a lot of overtaking going on but as typical with ABC's coverage the last few years, all they do is focus on the leaders. Watching the live ticker is more exciting than the dull top-3 camera angles they always go to.

[Shifter]

It would have helped if Roger hadn't slipped Will's tire-changer some cold hard cash with the note that said "get that hotshot away from golden boy".

*Flame suit ON...

[Bobby_Hamlin]

One of the more forgettable 500s it has to be said; unless you've got the blinkers on.

I was alarmed to see just how processional it was under normal green flag conditions apart from the odd mistake from the less experienced driver and the occasional mechanical/pit stall issue for others.

Track position was absolutely everything, more than I can ever remember, and highlighted in terms of good cars like Dixon and Franchitti powerless to do anything about average runners ahead of them after being shuffled back in the pits.

This isn't a 'so and so is a better series' or some such rubbish; I just felt it was an anticlimax as Indy 500s go.

[anthonyvop]

Today's race was a complete snoozefest - barely any overtaking, no green flag pitstops or alternative fuel strategies. A long train of cars, with nobody able to pass unless on a restart.

In other words, a procession.
What were you expecting?

[Bobby_Hamlin]

What were you expecting?

It's unacceptable for a spec series and needs addressing.

[anthonyvop]

It's unacceptable for a spec series and needs addressing.
Ok.
And why do you expect a spec chassis and spec engine being run flat out all the way around an oval would allow much passing?

[Bobby_Hamlin]

..being run flat out all the way around an oval...

Exactly, smart guy; therein lies the problem.

[methanolHuffer]

Who could deny all teams and drivers ran this race as hard as they could?
The high dollar teams finished at the top as predicted - but they didn't run away from the smaller teams and lap them into embarrassment. And the small teams didn't make it an easy win, either.

Pretty good race - not the greatest 500, but a pretty good one.

[drewdawg727]

I agree - the race was pretty good......the reason why the race doesnt have a lot of overtaking and a lot of passes is because EVERYONE has now started playing the fuel saving game. No one is going balls to the wall anymore, and when everyone saves fuel, no one wants to pass each other.

I think it is commendable that basically everyone gave everyone else room on the track today for the passes, which rarely happens. Good clean racing (except for Moraes/Andretti)

[jimispeed]

I thought it was OK. But, certainly not all that exciting.

Not much battling up front.

[beachbum]

And why do you expect a spec chassis and spec engine being run flat out all the way around an oval would allow much passing?

Exactly, smart guy; therein lies the problem.I have read this cry over and over again - all they do is run around flat. Unfortunately, that is just wrong.

Just for something different (and avoid the crappy ABC coverage) I decided to watch online with the in car cameras and telemetry. I watched Danica's car most of the time as it seemed to be the only one with sound. I had 2 other drivers telemetry up at the same time. Yes they were lifting - a lot, particularly into turns 1 and 3, and often had to lift a bit coming out of almost every turn as the car would wash out. Near the end with new tires, Danica did run a handful of laps with minimal lifts, but then the tires went off a bit, and she was back to the big lift going into 1.

What was obvious was the track was very slippery, particularly off line. Anytime a driver would get pushed up (as in the passes the TV never showed), they had a huge lift and often lost more than one spot. Most of this happened back in 10-20 place, which ABC doesn't think exists. The other problem was the dreaded "aero push". As soon as any driver caught another, the understeer became much greater and they just couldn't close. I watched all of the available in-car cameras, and it was obvious for every car.

IHMO, what lead to minimal passing are the same factors that lead to 19 cars on the lead lap (and most of the "incidents") Unlike some years with a bunch of slow cars wondering around laps off the pace, this year all of the cars were capable of nearly the same speed (even Milka). The difference between the leaders and the back of the pack for most of the race wasn't much, only about 2-3 mph. Very often the cars in mid-pack were faster than the leaders. There were very few slow laps by anyone, and even then they would get back up to speed on the next lap. Add in the slippery track, marbles in every turn, and the big push nearly every driver complained about, and getting a pass done was only going to happen if the leading driver made a mistake or the closing driver was very aggressive..

A perfect example occurred after a restart when Danica was behind PT. She was faster at that stage, particularly with new tires, but she couldn't make the pass. Most of that was the experience of PT where he took her to school about how to keep a driver behind without blocking. Even she mentioned it in the Versus coverage after the race - with a chuckle. PT would bait her down the straightaway by moving up just enough to apparently leave the bottom lane open. As soon as she would head for the bottom, he would drift back down. Not a block, as she was a couple car lengths back, the move was very smooth, and he never took the line completely away. That would force her to move back out. As she moved from his inside to his outside, she would lose the air on the nose and really wash up and have a huge lift. From the in-car, you could see it quite clearly and she would lose quite a few car lengths. Then it would take a lap or more to get back to him where he would do it again. This happened quite a few times, until she got a better run out of 4 and stayed on the bottom, and he let her go.

Danica had one of the most "stuck" cars on the track with a lot of downforce. By herself, she was had some of the slowest straightaway speeds of anyone - up to 5 mph less than most, but some of the highest corner speeds. If she was having that much trouble, the cars with lighter downforce were really having issues.

Like many series today, track position meant everything. Just ask Dario or Briscoe, or even Dixon. Once they lost track position, they couldn't get it back, even through they were the fastest cars on the track. Is that due to spec racing or the fact there are no uncompetitive teams who are clueless? Only a couple teams missed the setup, and the rest were all really close.

Maybe its me, but after the decades of listening to and watching Indy, I prefer the current situation to some of the 500's were cars were laps apart, a number of teams were laps down just circulating, and one or two teams ran off and hid from everyone else. Make a mistake this year, even a small one like Dario in the pits, and you lost a bunch of spots you might not get back.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Beach, most excellent take on what was going on.

IT was not a great 500, but I enjoyed it just the same. I think they have to allow the box that the rules put all the cars in to be opened. New engines, some aero tweaking, something. Something that allows bad cars and good cars to exist. When Milka Duno can stay on the lead lap for almost half a race and only be down one lap at the end, that tells me that all the cars are not far apart. There was no separation really at the top end except for minute differences.

Danica ran a really smart race although, as Beach points out, she likely had the car nailed down a bit more and it hurt her from getting the steam up to pass on the straight. PT had a b@stard of a car from what I was able to figure, for he would jump 3 or 4 spots on every restart, and give all the spots back within a few laps as the car wouldn't behave in the corners. When ABC actually showed him, he was fighting to keep that thing down in the corners and was twitching and bobbling all over in the corners. Whatever people may think of PT, he drove a race proving he still has the ability, espeically at Indy.

A masterful engineering and organizational effort by Ganassi and Penske showed they were the two best teams, but as things happened, it is clear Roger Penske and Tim Cindric run the best operation still, and it was shown by the sheer speed Helio was able to gain vs the rest of the field in that last dash for the cash.

We need a few more years for a new package to settle in, and some of the Champ Car teams to really get acclimiatized to the new car. I think Newman-Haas is still at a disadvantage and is a year or two away from really getting a handle on the Dallara....

[MDS]

If we're honest the racing was pretty dull. I think the best example of this was my watch party. I invited about 20 people over to watch the race, most of them are casual sports fans, but were interested in the race. By lap 75 one of my friends had raided my game closet and there games of Risk and Monopoly going on with the race an afterthought in the background.

[Hoop-98]

Good take Beach I was comparing Helio to Danica and the difference was he was lifting noticeably less, but lifting all the same. I started to comment but figured that would be wasted bytes.

Unfortunately, those great exciting races are more rare than many like to think. I made breakfast as I "watched" Monaco. My 48 year old brother crashed his motocross bike, I ran over to see how he was doing (not well) and didn't feel compelled to rewind laps 110 - 160 etc.

I did enjoy the race, maybe because I enjoy all kinds of racing and don't feel the need to let everyone know when I don't like a particular form of racing.

Here's to a good World 600 and get well fast Vitor.

rh

[jarrambide]

If we're honest the racing was pretty dull. I think the best example of this was my watch party. I invited about 20 people over to watch the race, most of them are casual sports fans, but were interested in the race. By lap 75 one of my friends had raided my game closet and there games of Risk and Monopoly going on with the race an afterthought in the background.
Well, it is very difficult for casual fans (and even some hard core fans) to watch 4 hours of racing, the 500 is a very long race, add to that that the first half of this one was a lot longer than the second half, not a lot of passes and you can understand why casual fans will lose interest.

[FormerFF]

The weather here was crummy, and I had a stiff neck and a headache, so I sat and watched the entire 500 for the first time since the split. I will have to say that I was disappointed in the competitiveness of the race. It seemed like other than the first lap or two after a restart, there was no passing, at least in the top 10. Now, I'm a sports car guy at heart, I can go to the Petit LeMans which typically runs a little over nine hours, watch every minute of it, and wish it was a little longer. The difference for me is that I find the cars negotiating the road course to be interesting, while I can't say the same for cars lapping on a high speed paved oval. It doesn't hurt that in the ALMS you always have the prototypes carving up the GT cars, that's always entertaining as well. For an oval to be interesting to me, the cars have to be dicing for a position. I watched most of one of the Indycar oval races last year, and saw the same phenomenon as I did at this year's Indy, namely that track position was everything and no one could get around anyone else, so I haven't been watching the ovals this year, only the road and street races.

The problem with a longer race like the 500, and all the NASCAR ovals, is that the first three quarters of it is just a setup period, there's no reason to race for position. In years gone by, it seems like there was usually good racing towards the end. This year, it didn't seem like anything but pit strategy counted, and to a certain amount that involves guessing when the next yellow is going to come out. Face it, once the track went green after the last caution, the only thing that was going to affect the outcome of the race was going to be if Helio made a mistake or had a mechanical problem, both of which were unlikely.

[Hoop-98]

If you want to see position changes try this link:

Hit play and you can see position swaps, pretty cool:

http://www.indystar.com/article/99999999/SPORTS0107/399990474/

rh

[MDS]

Well, it is very difficult for casual fans (and even some hard core fans) to watch 4 hours of racing, the 500 is a very long race, add to that that the first half of this one was a lot longer than the second half, not a lot of passes and you can understand why casual fans will lose interest.

Then how do you ever expect to win fans?

[garyshell]

If you want to see position changes try this link:

Hit play and you can see position swaps, pretty cool:

http://www.indystar.com/article/99999999/SPORTS0107/399990474/

rh


You'll need to move the lap slider all the way back to the left before you hit play. This is pretty cool. Several years ago CART had something similar with horizontal rows for each car and a colored line that tracked each car as their position changed. It allowed you to see not just the current lap as this one does but the history of the entire race. It was a bit more difficult to read but VERY informative. You could at a glance see folks trading positions back and forth. It was live during the race and available for very afterward. I can't remember the company who produced the website then, but I think they were from Australia. They did a hell of a job.

Was this page live during the race?

Gary

[garyshell]

Then how do you ever expect to win fans?

What do YOU expect them to do to win fans?

Gary

[jarrambide]

Then how do you ever expect to win fans?

I don´t work for IC, and even tough I don´t know a lot about marketing, one thing I can tell you, the casual fan is not the one that should do the hard work to become a fan, it is the series the one that should do the hard work.

Do you really not see why the 500 isa difficult race for casual fans to watch from flag to flag?, 4 hours of racing for a casual fan?

[Hoop-98]

You'll need to move the lap slider all the way back to the left before you hit play. This is pretty cool. Several years ago CART had something similar with horizontal rows for each car and a colored line that tracked each car as their position changed. It allowed you to see not just the current lap as this one does but the history of the entire race. It was a bit more difficult to read but VERY informative. You could at a glance see folks trading positions back and forth. It was live during the race and available for very afterward. I can't remember the company who produced the website then, but I think they were from Australia. They did a hell of a job.

Was this page live during the race?

Gary

Not sure Gary, just saw it over at _____Forum

rh

[FIAT1]

Onother day at Penske racing club. Boring.

[MDS]

What do YOU expect them to do to win fans?

Gary

The first step is dumping Gene Simmons and hiring Humpty Wheeler. That man helped build NASCAR from the ground up, and is much better than anyone who the IRL has ever had at promotions.

While everything after hiring Humpty is subjective, I would think opening up the rule book a bit and dumping Dallara as the lone chassis provider are probably good next steps. Getting VW and/or Mazda to come in would certainally help as well.

[garyshell]

MDS,

Is Simmons still involved? I was under the impression he was gone. I agree with your post 100%.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

MDS..that is Humpy. Not Humpty. Great idea though and I agree.

You want fans, you have to give them action and passing, but with all the wrecks a lot of the casual fans would accept that as "action."

There needs to be more variety in chassis and engines and that will spread the field up and bring back lapping and more vareity in setups which makes for some ability of faster cars caught in the back like the Ganassi boys to move up.

If it makes anyone happy, these complaints are often heard by the NASCAR crowd too, it seems the new COT has many of the same issues.