whats so wrong with two-tier?

[UltimateDanGTR]

what is wrong with it? If you had seperate classes it could work. like in sportscar racing you get LMP1 and LMP2, it could be like F1P1 and F1P2.

F1P2 cars could run to the budget cap, and probably be slower, whilst ferrari, bmw etc-the big teams could still spend willy-nilly like they think they need to and be faster than F1P2 cars which run to slightly different regs.


whats wrong with that?

[F1boat]

The wrong is that Max believes that F1P2 should be better... also F1 was never about class racing.

[ioan]

It's wrong because it is only politics.
It has nothing to do with having two classes, it's all about blackmailing.

[Hawkmoon]

It works in sportscar racing because that's the way that type of racing has always been run. Being based on road cars naturally led to a class-based category. F1 has never, and should never, do likewise.

F1 is about who can build the best car under whatever rules are in play. Mosley wants to turn that on it's head in a bid to get the manufacturers to leave. Unfortunately for Max he also annoyed Ferrari and Red Bull too, which I'm willing to bet wasn't in the plan.

I believe that F1 should free up the regulations in many areas, engines in particular, but the rules should be the same for everyone. There are better ways of cutting costs that arbitrary (not to mention unenforcable) budget caps and two sets of rules.

[BDunnell]

It would be utterly naff. Plus, few people other than enthusiasts — and not even all enthusiasts — are really that bothered about the 'lower' classes in multiple-class championships.

[ShiftingGears]

Formula one has always been about one formula, and it should stay that way.

[Dave B]

It would only work if there were two seperate classes, but what Max is (was) proposing is that everybody competes for the same title with two differing technical specs.

See the WTCC and to an extent the BTCC for a perfect demonstration of why that makes as much sense as solving the problem of low ceilings by cutting ones head off.

[JSH]

Formula one has always been about one formula, and it should stay that way.

What he said!! ...

[yodasarmpit]

F1 is not a spec series, we already have 10 classes racing each other each fortnight. This will make no difference, the best engineer, strategist, and drivers combination will be at the front.
Part of the strategy will be choosing whether to go budget cap or not.

[wedge]

We had turbos and NA engines in the 80s but the turbos were dominant so there's a place for some form of standardisation in F1 IMO eg. tyres, ECU.

Tiers doesn't really work and is not really the essence of F1, its more development based, the haves and have nots eg. the DD diffusers.

[Sleeper]

The WTCC is the perfect example of why its a very bad idea, constant sniping between the manufacturers about who has an advantage and who doesnt, regular sand bagging to avoid performance abalncing, constant changes to the rules. Its little more than a joke and why I dont follow the WTCC any more.

The worst thing about it is that it doesnt matter how good a job you do, if the cars not fast enough then you can complain and get a lot of extra help to make you go faster. The reverse is also true, you do a brilliant job and you find yourself with more weight and less power.

[Somebody]

It works in sportscar racing because that's the way that type of racing has always been run. Being based on road cars naturally led to a class-based category. F1 has never, and should never, do likewise.

What about the turbo era? Particularly towards the end, when they briefly had two championships, one of which was for NA engines.

[UltimateDanGTR]

so what you are saying, in answer to my question is: alot! :D

I personally think it could work-ofcourse I would prefer it like it is albeit with bigger grids-but i wouldnt mind 2 tier if it was ever needed to keep all the teams happy

[mstillhere]

what is wrong with it? If you had seperate classes it could work. like in sportscar racing you get LMP1 and LMP2, it could be like F1P1 and F1P2.

F1P2 cars could run to the budget cap, and probably be slower, whilst ferrari, bmw etc-the big teams could still spend willy-nilly like they think they need to and be faster than F1P2 cars which run to slightly different regs.


whats wrong with that?

I would not see any thing wrong with 4 different tears instead. Let me explain:

One, for the big teams.

The second for the teams that are less rich. Let's say teams that make between 20 and 10 million dollars.

Third would be the teams that make between half millon and 500.000 pounds.

Then , number four would be mothers pushing their kids in their strolleys. It's not that dangerous, if you think about it. Like any other slower car, as soon as they get a blue flag, they slow down and let the faster car get by under 10 seconds penalty. It's that simple. If it's nice the parent can also bring their pet. Nothing on the slow side though (turtles, for example, since they are too slow). See? Not a problem.

Now, for how long I am supposed to read about your sensless.........ideas (and that's not the word that initially came to mind)? Is everybody ready to just shut down the F1 circus and replace it with...............WHATEVER??????

[Jag_Warrior]

Not just "no", but "hell no!"

[Rollo]

What about the turbo era? Particularly towards the end, when they briefly had two championships, one of which was for NA engines.

You mean like 1988 when only McLaren posted 15 victories from 16 races? And when only Mansell ever managed to break the Ferrari/McLaren stranglehold on the front row?

That if anything was the perfect advertisement why two sets of regulations should not be used.

[Jag_Warrior]

so what you are saying, in answer to my question is: alot! :D

I personally think it could work-ofcourse I would prefer it like it is albeit with bigger grids-but i wouldnt mind 2 tier if it was ever needed to keep all the teams happy

But Dan, isn't this proposal a BIG part of what's making the teams unhappy now?

[CNR]

they will most likely have to change the 4 race engine rule for the cosworth engine (according to peter winsor) the cosworth engine would need to run at 20000 rpm to match the other engines

remember how they went in willams last time and i think that was 19000 rpm

[Somebody]

You mean like 1988 when only McLaren posted 15 victories from 16 races? And when only Mansell ever managed to break the Ferrari/McLaren stranglehold on the front row?

That if anything was the perfect advertisement why two sets of regulations should not be used.

Not saying that it should be - it shouldn't. Merely that there have been times when different cars have run under very different rules, that that was formalised for the last couple of turbo years and that trying to claim it's NEVER been the case, as some people here have been, is to be completely ignorant of F1 history.

[Big Ben]

They have problems understanding the same way the same rules. I can't even imagine what will happen next year. One thing I'm sure. I'm not going to watch it. If it will happen I think we should get toghether, do an eulogy, close the site and go our ways.

[UltimateDanGTR]

But Dan, isn't this proposal a BIG part of what's making the teams unhappy now?

yes it is. but we have to look at the bigger picture, and make the teams realise they should be able to accept new teams-in whatever fashion they wan to come in.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Now, for how long I am supposed to read about your sensless.........ideas (and that's not the word that initially came to mind)? Is everybody ready to just shut down the F1 circus and replace it with...............WHATEVER??????

Me thinks you dont like the fact that I try to come up with ideas that could help save F1?

Fair enough, lets not think of anything and let F1 go into jeopardy. Because thats the best way foward isnt it?

or, you could actually conjure up some ideas of your own-if mine are so 'senseless'.

Im sorry, but mothers and trolleys wouldnt be great racing ;)

[Hawkmoon]

Not saying that it should be - it shouldn't. Merely that there have been times when different cars have run under very different rules, that that was formalised for the last couple of turbo years and that trying to claim it's NEVER been the case, as some people here have been, is to be completely ignorant of F1 history.

I think you'll find that the periods you're talking about have been ones of transition where a technology has either been phased in or out. As far as I know F1 has never run under different rules by design. It's always been as a result of the phasing out of a particular technology, 1988 the obvious example with the phasing out of turbos.

[Hondo]

The teams say the money isn't there anymore. The manufacturers say the money isn't there anymore. Max says the money isn't there anymore. Bernie says the money isn't there anymore.

If the money isn't there, doesn't that sort of impose a natural budget cap?

[ioan]

The teams say the money isn't there anymore. The manufacturers say the money isn't there anymore. Max says the money isn't there anymore. Bernie says the money isn't there anymore.

If the money isn't there, doesn't that sort of impose a natural budget cap?

Yeah but that won't make Max more powerful.

[ArrowsFA1]

If the money isn't there, doesn't that sort of impose a natural budget cap?
Bingo :up: It's not, and never has been or should be, the role of the FIA to tell the teams how much they can spend.

If Max wants a low budget, spec-type series he should resign as FIA President to go and run his Formula 2 series.

[555-04Q2]

what is wrong with it? If you had seperate classes it could work. like in sportscar racing you get LMP1 and LMP2, it could be like F1P1 and F1P2.

F1P2 cars could run to the budget cap, and probably be slower, whilst ferrari, bmw etc-the big teams could still spend willy-nilly like they think they need to and be faster than F1P2 cars which run to slightly different regs.


whats wrong with that?

Whats wrong with it :?:

F1 is supposed to be the "ultimate" racing formula, the "pinnacle" of motorsport, the "top of the pile" where every driver wants to one day be. A two-tier system makes a mockery of F1's reputation as the top motorsport formula.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Whats wrong with it :?:

F1 is supposed to be the "ultimate" racing formula, the "pinnacle" of motorsport, the "top of the pile" where every driver wants to one day be. A two-tier system makes a mockery of F1's reputation as the top motorsport formula.

First of all sorry for not beign here in the past few days-I was on holiday.

Now;555-Making a mockery of F1's reputation? thats already been done with more politics than the labour party-and more idiocy too. Its already lost a lot of reputation and is now a bit of a joke to the outsider-if it wasnt already. So dont worry-you could race pigsd and F1s reputation wouldnt be effected these days. unless one pig uses a double decker arse-then your in trouble. ;)