How many laps can they drive fast for?

[ArrowsFA1]

Interesting comments from Honda's Nick Fry in this interview (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/56766). He was talking about Rubens but made this more general point:

"I don't see much difference in the absolute speed of any of the F1 drivers. They can all drive very fast. The issue for me is how many laps can they drive fast for? The difference between the guys at the front of the grid and the guys towards the back is that in a 50-lap race a few of them drive absolutely to perfection for 50 laps, others can do it for 40 laps, others for 30 laps and others for 20. That's the difference, not speed."
So...who can do how many laps on the 2007 grid?

[BeansBeansBeans]

I'd say that Fernando would be top of the tree in this regard.

[tinchote]

I'd say that Fernando would be top of the tree in this regard.

Together with Kimi, for sure.

[EuroTroll]

D'you mean to say that Fernando and Kimi are... actually the two fastest drivers on the grid? :s hock: Never saw that one coming. :p :

[93VTEC]

Jens can drive consistently.........just a bit slower than the rest!

[janneppi]

Isn't Triulli said to be a one lap wonder in F1? :)

[Firstgear]

PDLR can go really fast for about half a lap, and then a few laps later go really fast for another half a lap... (Bahrain 2005 I think it was).

[jens]

Seems as it also depends on physical preparation. Driver may even not notice it by himself, but even a very slight fatigue can cost an extra tenth or two per lap, which will be vital in the closing stages of a race.

Although Fry's talk raises some questionmarks. According to him, the difference between drivers should come out in the closing stages of the race? But in quali the drivers don't drive out equal times, still someone is faster than another...

[Erki]

Of course McLaren drivers have to drive as fast as they can as long as the car stays together. :)

[ioan]

There is one that can drive fast for a full race distance, but he won't be on the grid in one month! :s The rest of them can't even get close to that! :s

[PSfan]

There is one that can drive fast for a full race distance, but he won't be on the grid in one month! :s The rest of them can't even get close to that! :s

Wow, I didn't think you had such a high opinion of Jacques! :cheese:

[Donney]

Wow, I didn't think you had such a high opinion of Jacques! :cheese:

So he didn't mean Montoya then?

;)

[ioan]

Wow, I didn't think you had such a high opinion of Jacques! :cheese:

I better not say how many laps can Jacques drive fast! :p :

[jens]

So he didn't mean Montoya then?

;)

No-no-no!! :laugh:

We are all missing King Alex The First. :( Always managed to keep his "spinning" pace till the end.

[ClarkFan]

Seems as it also depends on physical preparation. Driver may even not notice it by himself, but even a very slight fatigue can cost an extra tenth or two per lap, which will be vital in the closing stages of a race.

Although Fry's talk raises some questionmarks. According to him, the difference between drivers should come out in the closing stages of the race? But in quali the drivers don't drive out equal times, still someone is faster than another...

Physical preparation certainly is part of it in F1, but simple ability to maintain concentration is important as well.

And those "fade out" laps don't necessarily come at the end of a race. Schumacher used to pick up time because his in laps and out laps around pit stops were better than anyone else did. He didn't let the stop break his form and may have even used it as motivation for a quick one. Some drivers "go to sleep" in the middle of stints and fail to pick up time as their car gets lighter. And, of course, the cars collected by Montreal's "Wall of Champions" attest to mental mistakes. :s

In a close race, Stirling Moss said that he always made sure to put in a fast lap after he had lapped a slower car. The space he gained could discourage the following car and give him a clean getaway. The phychological aspects of racing may not be quite as obivous today, but they are still there.

ClarkFan

[jjanicke]

Seems as it also depends on physical preparation. Driver may even not notice it by himself, but even a very slight fatigue can cost an extra tenth or two per lap, which will be vital in the closing stages of a race.

Although Fry's talk raises some questionmarks. According to him, the difference between drivers should come out in the closing stages of the race? But in quali the drivers don't drive out equal times, still someone is faster than another...

I would chalk that one up to the differences in cars.

I'm assuming Fry means that all drivers can go fast; just a few can keep on going fast, all things being equal.

[Erki]

It's funny that people mention Montoya and Villeneuve here. Monty will race 600 miles(nearly 1000km) in May and JV will race in Le Mans endurance race. Both are substantially longer than an F1 Sunday Driving Session.

[pino]

Trulli for sure...none is faster than him :p :

[Donney]

It's funny that people mention Montoya and Villeneuve here. Monty will race 600 miles(nearly 1000km) in May and JV will race in Le Mans endurance race. Both are substantially longer than an F1 Sunday Driving Session.


Undoubtedly but that means a slower pace and more consistent.

[Mr Kurtz]

Undoubtedly but that means a slower pace and more consistent.


...and in a team with three race drivers doing two hour stints...

[Erki]

...and in a team with three race drivers doing two hour stints...

I ALMS they can drive up to 2 hours but at Le Mans I think the limit is 3 hour max in one trot. And they have to go double-stinting at 5am Sunday morning.

Sunday's Daytona 500 looks to be pretty fast, if 200mph is not fast. :) Combine it with cars 3 inches apart from each other and the wall and voila. :s mokin:

[Schnell]

You can't generalise, e.g. Malaysia the heat & high humidity must be exhausting! Working hard for a hour trying to keep pushing against all that generated G, whilst wearing layers of fire retardent clothing and a helmet will sap a drivers energy. Monaco is about intense concertration. Brazil with it's anti-clockwise bends will destroy most drivers neck muscles well before the chequered flag appears. A wet race anywhere...a drivers right foot aplication is determined by available visability!

[jens]

You can't generalise, e.g. Malaysia the heat & high humidity must be exhausting! Working hard for a hour trying to keep pushing against all that generated G, whilst wearing layers of fire retardent clothing and a helmet will sap a drivers energy. Monaco is about intense concertration. Brazil with it's anti-clockwise bends will destroy most drivers neck muscles well before the chequered flag appears. A wet race anywhere...a drivers right foot aplication is determined by available visability!

That may be one of the reasons, why many drivers seem to have tracks, where they are always competitive, and tracks, where they are usually struggling. Different drivers, different strengths/weaknesses... Besides physical abilities for example some drivers do not feel comfortable on tracks that has many fast corners, etc.

Also as I wondered that Fry didn't comment qualifying differences, then I think that talking about the ability of driving a full race on the limit, it might be transferred to qualifying as well. Who can keep the ultimate concentration for the one full lap and who somewhere somehow in some sector loses that tenth.

[pentti]

I guess Fry was referring to tyre management?

[sonic_roadhog]

"I don't see much difference in the absolute speed of any of the F1 drivers. They can all drive very fast. The issue for me is how many laps can they drive fast for? The difference between the guys at the front of the grid and the guys towards the back is that in a 50-lap race a few of them drive absolutely to perfection for 50 laps, others can do it for 40 laps, others for 30 laps and others for 20. That's the difference, not speed."

The interesting line to me there is "absolute perfection". As any racing driver worth their seat will say there is no such thing as a perfect lap. So where has this wonder driver they must have found come from????? Certainly isn't RB or JB.

Sonic :)

[jens]

One more thing that I would like to mention and Fry didn't bring it clearly out. There is not such thing like "a driver can drive fast for 30 laps and that's it". Actually it depends on several variables: track, conditions, setup etc.

A couple of posts before there were mentions about the characteristics of different circuits, which highlights different qualities of a driver. Like human beings are different to each other, so are the drivers. It means that a certain F1 driver might be able to drive 100% the whole race on one circuit, but another circuit doesn't suit so much for whatever reason. Btw, that might be one of the reasons, why some drivers tend to be inconsistent to some extent.

If you think about almost whoever in F1, who is a bit more experienced and has driven in a competitive team at least for once, you can recall several races, where he can be nominated as "the driver of the day". That shows clearly that well at least most of them can be quick and actually are and in "right conditions" can drive well the whole race. Just some drivers are more sensitive about "conditions" than others, which is one factor that makes a slight difference.

[SGWilko]

Harking back to the late eighties/early nineties. Nakajima in the lotus....

Now, he never had the physical strength to race consistently fast in the dry, but, unless I'm very much mistaken, he was exceptional in the wet.....

And of course, the ability to drive fast depends upon the ability to set the car up correctly. Take Prost, for example. He never looked quick, but always was. And he was a master at setting up the car, and letting it do the hard work.

Nowadays, with qually regs and Park Ferme and no warm up, there is not now the opportunity to hone the race setup to anywhere near the same extent.

Alonso, no doubts about ability, speed or commitment, the same goes for Schumacher (M, of course). Kimi is a balls out sling the car about driver, much as Monty was. Jens is a smoothy in the car, which I think may be a benefit this year in terms of tyre management, and getting the best from the rev limited motors.

[chap]

"I don't see much difference in the absolute speed of any of the F1 CARS. They can all RUN very fast. The issue for me is how many laps can they RUN fast for? The difference between the CARS at the front of the grid and the CARS towards the back is that in a 50-lap race a few of them RUN absolutely to perfection for 50 laps, others can do it for 40 laps, others for 30 laps and others for 20. That's the difference, not RAW speed."

I mean, it is not easy to separate car and driver performance when assessing its performance ...

[ioan]

"I don't see much difference in the absolute speed of any of the F1 CARS. They can all RUN very fast. The issue for me is how many laps can they RUN fast for? The difference between the CARS at the front of the grid and the CARS towards the back is that in a 50-lap race a few of them RUN absolutely to perfection for 50 laps, others can do it for 40 laps, others for 30 laps and others for 20. That's the difference, not RAW speed."

I mean, it is not easy to separate car and driver performance when assessing its performance ...


Because you believe that the cars get tired and can't go fast anymore, or do cars lose concentration?!

[W8&C]

So where has this wonder driver they must have found come from????? The last one retired end of last season! :D

[SGWilko]

Because you believe that the cars get tired and can't go fast anymore, or do cars lose concentration?!


No, but cars can have problems, tyres can go off, egines be down on power, the gearbox can lose a gear, clutch issues. And these are not always obvious to the spectator......

[ioan]

No, but cars can have problems, tyres can go off, egines be down on power, the gearbox can lose a gear, clutch issues. And these are not always obvious to the spectator......

Other than for the tyre issue, those cars aren't called inconsistent but broken.
As for the tyres, it's up to the driver to use them consistently.
Fry was talking exactly about how some drivers are able to stay focused for a long time and drive consistently fast, while others (fill with JB and even RB) can't.

[SGWilko]

As for the tyres, it's up to the driver to use them consistently.



Well yes, but here you shoot your foot. If, in order to manage the tyres, you need to hold some pace back, how can you be consistently fast. If, in order to keep ahead of the guy behind, you have to drive flat out and cook the tyres........

Do you not see my point? A car can still run with a broken gearbox - Benetton and Schumacher @ Spain comes to mind - as can a car with an engine with reduced power, does not mean its broken, merely compromised.

Besides, who, in the second half of the '06 season was the highest points scorer? Are you suggesting that an inconsistent driver, unable to concentrate can amass points like that?

[ioan]

Besides, who, in the second half of the '06 season was the highest points scorer? Are you suggesting that an inconsistent driver, unable to concentrate can amass points like that?

I don't see the logics behind this phrase, could you please explain it?

[SGWilko]

I don't see the logics behind this phrase, could you please explain it?

I'll try....



some drivers are able to stay focused for a long time and drive consistently fast, while others (fill with JB and even RB) can't.

One of the drivers you mention above, is the answer to the question you pose above in the first quote, in responce to this - "Besides, who, in the second half of the '06 season was the highest points scorer? Are you suggesting that an inconsistent driver, unable to concentrate can amass points like that?"

For the purposes of clarity, I assume Focused and Concentrate are one and the same.

HTH

[chap]

Because you believe that the cars get tired and can't go fast anymore, or do cars lose concentration?!

yes, cars get tired and can't go fast ... engines blew up, gear boxes stuck, tires ... you know, all these has to do with cars performance in the same way that physical condition has to do with people concentration as you pointed.

Nick is talking about people reliability but cars reliability is there too. I say that it is difficult to separate both cos all we know is driver/car performance.

SGWilco has already developed the issue ...

[ioan]

yes, cars get tired and can't go fast ... engines blew up, gear boxes stuck, tires ... you know, all these has to do with cars performance in the same way that physical condition has to do with people concentration as you pointed.

Nick is talking about people reliability but cars reliability is there too. I say that it is difficult to separate both cos all we know is driver/car performance.

SGWilco has already developed the issue ...


Those cars are conceived and developed so that will be able to run at least 2 GPs without losing performance, so from my POV there is only one part that can still influence the consistency of the car: the tyres. But the tyres will perform in the way the driver uses them.

However we look at the problem, the cars dont get tired or lose concentration, but drivers do!

[chap]

Those cars are conceived and developed so that will be able to run at least 2 GPs without losing performance,

well ... that's the main goal get the perfect car that don't lose performance.

You know that not all the cars are so perfect, isn't it?

[PSfan]

Besides, who, in the second half of the '06 season was the highest points scorer? Are you suggesting that an inconsistent driver, unable to concentrate can amass points like that?

Leave MS outa this, we already know about his consitency... :p

Or unless you wanna suggest Button was the highest points scorer in the second half... 18 races divided by 2 equals nine... start counting after the US gp to get you second half total. MS = 62, Button = 40 (Alonso and Massa both also had 2nd half totals greater then Button as well...

[ioan]

well ... that's the main goal get the perfect car that don't lose performance.

You know that not all the cars are so perfect, isn't it?

What I know is that if I design a device to work for a given amount of time, that device will experience troubles of any kind only after the given amount of time has passed.

There is a way to do fatigue calculations in mechanics, you know! ;)

[Bagwan]

At least now we have one of the variables more or less constant in the tires .

It is rather a complicated issue , though .

A car is often said to be more suited to one driver over the other , and set-ups can be radically different .
Set-up , itself , can be the difference between fast and not so fast .

There are instances where drivers fight tooth and nail with engineers over how to make the car go fast .
Politics and ego can slow down a car like few other things .

There are also famous cases of top qualifiers who had focussed on that fame in sacrifice of race pace when it was known they had no chance .


Of course , the famous saying about first finishing is the aim , but is that aimed towards the guy who is easiest on the car ? If he's quickest , it is , and the other guy had better shift his style to keep up .
At least , that's how it is with no politics involved .

Driving fast for a number of laps is the mark of how fast a driver is , and striking a quick one , and the relationship between it and the average is the mark of how close that average is to the edge .

[PSfan]

When I first read this thread I was thinking that maybe Fry was just talking out of his other mouth, and that he didn't have much else to talk about seeing as the Honda team are really giving us much to talk about. Seeing as there are far to many variables to know with any certainty if the driver is going as far as the car is really capable of. conserving fuel/tires to extent a stint, ill handling car due to damage, bad set of tirea, improper set up, lapping traffic, being lapped, yellow flags... all sorts of instances that will make determining whether a driver gave it his best over the full race distance.

However a revelation just hit me. Fry's statement may have just been a jab at the Drivers at one of his teams rivals. Recently when the subject of teams having to run both types of suplied tires during a race, the Red Bull drivers claimed it was a dumb rule and that the teams would most likely be saving the "slow" tires for the end of the race, because with the positions pretty much set, that they drive slower at the end of the race anyways... (or something to that effect)

I didn't think Fry was that sly...

[GridGirl]

There have been some great technical answers so far guys. I dont think this has been mentioned yet in this thread, but the logical answer for me is untill the drivers get hungry, needs a toilet break or quite frankly gets bored.

At some point you will need food to keep you going how fit the driver is, while the car could technically go on untill one or more of its components fails.

[PSfan]

There have been some great technical answers so far guys. I dont think this has been mentioned yet in this thread, but the logical answer for me is untill the drivers get hungry, needs a toilet break or quite frankly gets bored.

At some point you will need food to keep you going how fit the driver is, while the car could technically go on untill one or more of its components fails.

Well those are, um, interesting points under some circumstances, but most drivers plan arounbd it, for example thanks to MTV, we seen how Paul Tracy visits the port-a-potty prior to qualifying. And thanks to Patrick Carpantier's wonderful articles on one of the f1 news site, I also know its not a good idea to eat chocolate cake between driving stints while doing the 24 hour race in Daytona... Though I I'm sure most drivers have pre-race rituals like and favorite meals to ensure they neither become hungry during a race or need to take a pit stop during the race (Though I do recall some drivers claiming to have taken pit stops while in the car... believe it was Couldhart... :p : )

BTW, I do recall one qualifying where JV's gf seemed to be only wearing a Nighty in the pit garage... now during qualies, that might be incentive to drive slow so you don't make it to the next round... but during the race, that might be enough to make a driver go faster... :)

[SGWilko]

What I know is that if I design a device to work for a given amount of time, that device will experience troubles of any kind only after the given amount of time has passed.

There is a way to do fatigue calculations in mechanics, you know! ;)

Why don't you send your CV to every GP team, then consult for all of them. 100% reliability, I'd love to see that. So you think each manufacturer wants to have a failure, you cannot predict the events that cause failures, that IS impossible.

[ioan]

Why don't you send your CV to every GP team, then consult for all of them. 100% reliability, I'd love to see that. So you think each manufacturer wants to have a failure, you cannot predict the events that cause failures, that IS impossible.

Teaching mechanics at the University is a much calmer job to do that to work around the clock for an F1 team! :D

And yes science can predict almost every failure and its cause.

[wedge]

Sounds like Fry is talking nonsense as usual, an excuse to defend JB and RB because of their consistant lap times and are therefore quick.

How does one define quick?

Over a stint the cars' handling changes you're wondering about your machinery, fuel load and tyres. Do you go for maximum attack or play safe?

There are so many factors.

Certainly from a fans' perspective it is the drivers who are willing to go close to the limit on a consistant basis, which is why the likes of Gilles Villenueve, the Mansells, Sennas, etc, are regarded highly.

[SGWilko]

Teaching mechanics at the University is a much calmer job to do that to work around the clock for an F1 team! :D

And yes science can predict almost every failure and its cause.

Sure, so Ferrari knew their engine would blow up at Suzuka, even before the race started, because of the valve that was going to fail, because their computer modelling predicted it, right......?

Really, there are too many variables to make reliable prediction practical, certainly in such hostile environments as an F1 car.

[Erki]

And yes science can predict almost every failure and its cause.

But can it predict the cause of the cause? :)

[ioan]

Sure, so Ferrari knew their engine would blow up at Suzuka, even before the race started, because of the valve that was going to fail, because their computer modelling predicted it, right......?

Really, there are too many variables to make reliable prediction practical, certainly in such hostile environments as an F1 car.

One thing that can not be predicted very accurately is material homogeneity, which may lead to an early failure of a part.

But I assume that the problem with that valve was maybe due to an assembly error, or even design error, rather than with materials strength miscalculations!

[Mikeall]

Sure, so Ferrari knew their engine would blow up at Suzuka, even before the race started, because of the valve that was going to fail, because their computer modelling predicted it, right......?

Really, there are too many variables to make reliable prediction practical, certainly in such hostile environments as an F1 car.

F1 teams don't invest millions upon millions for nothing all the properties of everything on the car will be known and all the variables will be known and the safe life of every component is known. Testing the cars and the components and having sensors everywhere provides the data to back up the predictions and set safety factors in the life of a component. If it wasn't things would be failing all the time or the cars would be overweight and off the pace. Ferraris rarely fail in races because they may well have the best system for lifeing components.

[truefan72]

Nick Fry is both right and wrong at the same time.

He is right that there is little difference in 90% of the drivers, and yes there seems to be some concentration issues between drivers that would help evaluate their overall performance. But in today's F1 it is more than ever the car you are driving that determines your overall performance rather than driver ability.

If he would like to hyead up super aguri, spyker, torro rossi, williams & RBR ( to a degree) and then proDrive, then I wou;d like to see how his comments pan out.

The car, the handling the degradation, engine, chasis all facxtor into where your grid position finally rests. It is much easier to put a Pedro De La Rosa in a McClaren and see him run at tyhe top than to put a Button or Rubems in a Super Aguri or Midland and see them competitive.

It just seems like and oversimplification from the head of one of the better teams and just shows thier arrogance towards the hard trying teams.

[Osella]

Sounds like it is oversimplification, but then would you expect him to say, in an interview, that barring a materials batch manufacturing error, and assuming their components are all constructed and lifed correctly that the team would anticipate any differential between the drivers to be minimal given a certain (calculated) car performance ceiling??...no, thought not.

What he was saying is simply that you don't get slow F1 drivers, but just that some are fast all the time, and some just fast sometimes.
Far as I can tell that's not arrogant, or stupid, simply a statement of fact.