Politicians at the breaking point....

[Hondo]

What a heartbreaker. The very same folks that want to make sure every penny you put in your pocket, everything you buy, and everything you own has a clear trail back to you so they can tax the hell out of it are now distraught because you found out how they play with your tax money, something they didn't want you to know.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKTRE54L1VG20090522

I know some utopian idealists are going to try to defend these scum but how can you do it with a straight face? I've known quite a few politicians. Some held an office and some never got past the wanna-be stage. Every last one of them ranged from being a mild egotist to an outright god-like egotist. All of them had a touch of the scoundrel in them, the smarter ones being cautious about who got to see or hear the scoundrel. Once elected, their entire focus shifted to being re-elected. Every move they made was geared towards keeping themselves in office. Politicians don't think highly of their constituents. They fear them at re-election, but they don't like them. The brilliant egotist, fashionably dressed, doesn't like being reminded that technically, he is the employee of that poor schmuck standing in the ditch wondering why his weedeater won't start. The superior always hates having to answer to the inferior. Just ask Max.

Here comes part 2. " they have to put in long hours...they have to maintain 2 homes....yada yada yada", bullcrap. I would hope anyone running for public office has researched the kind of time the job requires and what the job pays. Much of those long hours are devoted to the kind of activities that are geared to, you guessed it, re-election. You have to address the ladies garden group, make a little speech at the businessman's supper, etc. Just being there looking like you care will get you by. Once they've lost their issue they'll tell each other "well we know he tried, he was at our meeting, I'd vote for him again." Thats where those long hours go. As far as pay goes, if you can't afford to take the job, don't run for it. If you truly yearn to live a life of public service for the sake of serving the public, then the pay will probably be adequate to see you through. It probably pays better than other public service jobs like teaching, librarians, policeman, park rangers, etc. There's public service for you. I have yet to see a politician leave office worse off financially than he was when he took the office.

If some of these politicians are so upset as to be considering suicide over their expenses, hey, have at it. I won't stop you.

[donKey jote]

and the Eurosceptics in the UK have a new argument:

"If we can be this bad, just think how those greasy continentals would waste your money" :rolleyes: :p :
:dozey:

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[Drew]

and the Eurosceptics in the UK have a new argument:

"If we can be this bad, just think how those greasy continentals would waste your money" :rolleyes: :p :
:dozey:

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

Well apart from the choice of words, they're pretty much right, aren't they?

I find the whole saga fascinating and hilarious at the same time

[BDunnell]

I know some utopian idealists are going to try to defend these scum but how can you do it with a straight face?

Easily, because, quite simply, not all of them are 'scum'. You may not like it, but this is the truth. Your comment above is as ignorant and empty-headed as those along the lines of 'all bankers are scum'. This is not naive idealism on my part — it is based on personal experience.


I've known quite a few politicians. Some held an office and some never got past the wanna-be stage. Every last one of them ranged from being a mild egotist to an outright god-like egotist. All of them had a touch of the scoundrel in them, the smarter ones being cautious about who got to see or hear the scoundrel.

I have worked for a politician and, as a result, worked alongside and known several more. I do not recognise the picture you paint. My boss was a thoroughly decent man, and could not be described as an egotist any more than you or I. The idea that he had any 'touch of the scoundrel' in him is simply laughable. This could be said of many of the other politicians I encountered.


Once elected, their entire focus shifted to being re-elected. Every move they made was geared towards keeping themselves in office.

Well, what do you suggest? That politicians never seek re-election and never do any work on behalf of the electorate? Of course the actions of any politician could be interpreted as trying to seek re-election by someone who is unpleasantly cynical. A letter from an MP to the local council on behalf of a constituent could be interpreted as a move geared towards re-election, on the grounds that the constituent will be impressed at the work being done on their behalf and vote for them again. Or, as in my experience, it could be because the politician wants to do the best job possible. Of course this may lead to re-election. That, after all, is the aim. I don't see this as being problematic. Like I said, what is the alternative? Under your rationale, politicians are utterly damned if they do a good job and utterly damned if they don't. This is totally unfair.


Politicians don't think highly of their constituents. They fear them at re-election, but they don't like them.

Can you claim to like every single person in, say, your home town or your place of work?

Again, my experience is that the best MPs believe that their constituents deserve a good deal when it comes to essential services, etc, and work towards those ends, dealing with complaints and passing them to the relevant authorities.



Here comes part 2. " they have to put in long hours...they have to maintain 2 homes....yada yada yada", bullcrap. I would hope anyone running for public office has researched the kind of time the job requires and what the job pays. Much of those long hours are devoted to the kind of activities that are geared to, you guessed it, re-election. You have to address the ladies garden group, make a little speech at the businessman's supper, etc. Just being there looking like you care will get you by. Once they've lost their issue they'll tell each other "well we know he tried, he was at our meeting, I'd vote for him again." Thats where those long hours go.

Yes, in my experience the hardest-working politicians do put in long hours and work extremely hard. And are you suggesting that politicians don't do any of those things that you interpret solely as being electorally-motivated? The alternative to your view here is surely, once again, that they should never show their faces and be seen to be doing a bad job.

Furthermore, can you honestly say that you care equally about every aspect of your job? I know there are elements of mine that I care about more than others. This is only natural, so it is only natural that politicians will sometimes do stuff that they have to do but don't enjoy or really care about, but which they feel they have to do.


As far as pay goes, if you can't afford to take the job, don't run for it. If you truly yearn to live a life of public service for the sake of serving the public, then the pay will probably be adequate to see you through. It probably pays better than other public service jobs like teaching, librarians, policeman, park rangers, etc. There's public service for you.

It is not a question of not being able to afford to take the job. In the UK, being an MP requires, unless you are a London MP or decide you can commute, having a second home or some form of accommodation in London, as close as possible to Westminster, in order to be able to attend Parliament. Were I to stand for Parliament next year for a seat some way from London and get in, unless my financial circumstances change dramatically in the intervening period, I would probably be unable to afford both. Why should that get in the way of my desire to do the job?

Of course, the best solution is an MPs' 'hall of residence' in London. If you didn't want to live in it, you would be free to rent or buy somewhere else, but would receive no assistance. This would be by far the fairest solution to what has undoubtedly become a significant problem. Unfortunately, the 'hall of residence' idea is always dismissed because it would apparently be too attractive a terrorist target. It thus follows that Parliament as a whole should sit in a different place every day, if the same reasoning is applied, because of the terrorist threat. They really should look again at the suggestion, because it is both practical and transparent.


I have yet to see a politician leave office worse off financially than he was when he took the office.

I don't begrudge them this, so long as they have done a good job. The trouble with your line of reasoning is that you consider doing the job to the best of their ability to have a dishonourable aim.



If some of these politicians are so upset as to be considering suicide over their expenses, hey, have at it. I won't stop you.

That has to be one of the most unpleasant, nasty comments I have ever read on these forums.

I have been disgusted and appalled by a lot of the revelations about MPs' expenses, not least because I am genuinely amazed that it was possible for them to claim for many of these items. I also think that many more of the MPs involved should be resigning immediately, rather than 'consulting' people or waiting for their parties to pass judgement. The way some are hanging on and not being cast off by their party leaders is appalling. However, to tar all politicians with the same brush is unnecessarily insulting and completely unfair. My experience is that there are many genuinely good, hard-working people in national politics, and none of the revelations of recent weeks have altered this view. I would still have no qualms about entering politics myself.

[BDunnell]

and the Eurosceptics in the UK have a new argument:

"If we can be this bad, just think how those greasy continentals would waste your money"

A statement being expressed, apparently without irony, by one party that has just seen one of its MEPs going to jail for fraud, and another facing the same sanction.

[donKey jote]

Well apart from the choice of words, they're pretty much right, aren't they?
well it depends... do you really think the EuroMP's could do any worse ?
and if so, why? Just because they are Euros ?

Oh I see, you're worried about the British Euro MP's also wasting your money. From what I see they get up to in the UK, you'd be quite right to be worried too. :p : :D

[donKey jote]

A statement being expressed, apparently without irony, by one party that has just seen one of its MEPs going to jail for fraud, and another facing the same sanction.

yes, fascinating and hilarious at the same time. :s

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[BDunnell]

yes, fascinating and hilarious at the same time. :s

And sad that those tempted to support them as a protest against the 'mainstream' parties don't recognise this.

[Hondo]

I stand by everything I stated, also from "personal experience".


Another fine example:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/comments_blog/2009/05/parks-on-265000-pension-i-earned-it.html

I especially love the 4th comment down, by nag.

I also see the ex-president of South Korea did the right thing.

[BDunnell]

I stand by everything I stated, also from "personal experience".

Rather than responding to any of the points I made about the application of your views making it impossible for any politician to do their job properly? As I said, damned if they do, damned if they don't.

And joking about people committing suicide is not really very funny. I had thought you were better than that.

[donKey jote]

off topic but since we're on the subject of suicide:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/asia-pacific/8064867.stm
:dozey:

[Drew]

well it depends... do you really think the EuroMP's could do any worse ?
and if so, why? Just because they are Euros ?

Oh I see, you're worried about the British Euro MP's also wasting your money. From what I see they get up to in the UK, you'd be quite right to be worried too. :p : :D

Well, if they can do it in the UK parliament surely they can do it in the EU parliament too? ;)

Trust me donks I'm very scared of the Euros, I live with them all the time :rotflmao: ;)

[donKey jote]

I'd be scared of the Berlusconis too :p :

[Hondo]

Rather than responding to any of the points I made about the application of your views making it impossible for any politician to do their job properly? As I said, damned if they do, damned if they don't.

And joking about people committing suicide is not really very funny. I had thought you were better than that.

I wasn't joking. I applaud them. If that is the course of action they wish to pursue after betraying the public trust, then at the very least they have saved the taxpayers the expense of a trial and imprisonment. Nor am I joking when I say their assests should be seized by the state and sold with the proceeds going back into the public treasury. The effect this may have on their innocent families may serve to keep a few more of them honest. If it doesn't, then that pretty much demonstrates where their heads and hearts truly were. Assests are seized from "real criminals" all the time. Why should it be different for a public servant?

[BDunnell]

I wasn't joking. I applaud them. If that is the course of action they wish to pursue after betraying the public trust, then at the very least they have saved the taxpayers the expense of a trial and imprisonment. Nor am I joking when I say their assests should be seized by the state and sold with the proceeds going back into the public treasury. The effect this may have on their innocent families may serve to keep a few more of them honest. If it doesn't, then that pretty much demonstrates where their heads and hearts truly were. Assests are seized from "real criminals" all the time. Why should it be different for a public servant?

No-one, criminal or not, should be applauded for taking their own life.

I've known quite a few politicians


Some held an office and some never got past the wanna-be stage. Every last one of them ranged from being a mild egotist to an outright god-like egotist. All of them had a touch of the scoundrel in them, the smarter ones being cautious about who got to see or hear the scoundrel. Once elected, their entire focus shifted to being re-elected. Every move they made was geared towards keeping themselves in office.

Well, it is said that you can judge a man by the company he keeps.

No-one, criminal or not, should be applauded for taking their own life.

Oh, I don't know.

I can think of a few clueless xenophobes we wouldn't miss.

[Camelopard]

I also see the ex-president of South Korea did the right thing.

Interestingly I note that you didn't comment on a post I made in the economic downturn thread exactly along these lines..... maybe you think it's alright to rip off millions and even billions, but not a few thousand.

OK for bankers to rort the system for huge amounts and stuff up the world economy, but not ok to be a politician and overstate a few allowances. Ever cheated on your tax return?




http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/03/18/2518988.htm?section=justin

"Republican Senator Charles Grassley has suggested AIG executives should adopt a Japanese approach toward accepting responsibility for their failings by resigning or committing suicide."

[BDunnell]

Interestingly I note that you didn't comment on a post I made in the economic downturn thread exactly along these lines..... maybe you think it's alright to rip off millions and even billions, but not a few thousand.

OK for bankers to rort the system for huge amounts and stuff up the world economy, but not ok to be a politician and overstate a few allowances. Ever cheated on your tax return?

What recent events, both to do with the world economy and British MPs' expenses, prove to me is that more care needs to be taken by those in positions of responsibility, whether in the public or private sectors. One way or another, it's our money that's being messed with.

By the way, I have never once fiddled my expenses, even slightly. In fact, I can barely be arsed to put expense claims in, despite the fact that I always need the money. It's such a hassle, and fiddling them would require even more effort on my part. That and the fact that it's just wrong.

[Camelopard]

What recent events, both to do with the world economy and British MPs' expenses, prove to me is that more care needs to be taken by those in positions of responsibility, whether in the public or private sectors. One way or another, it's our money that's being messed with.

By the way, I have never once fiddled my expenses, even slightly. In fact, I can barely be arsed to put expense claims in, despite the fact that I always need the money. It's such a hassle, and fiddling them would require even more effort on my part. That and the fact that it's just wrong.

Agreed, but then we become over governed don't we? Too many rules and regulations, bad for the economy, leave it all to 'self regulation' and market forces....... or so 'they' tell us.

As for cheating on my tax, I'm way too paranoid to do that!

[BDunnell]

Agreed, but then we become over governed don't we? Too many rules and regulations, bad for the economy, leave it all to 'self regulation' and market forces....... or so 'they' tell us.

Well, quite.

[Hondo]

No-one, criminal or not, should be applauded for taking their own life.

There is something of an amusing irony about a society, any society, that allows abortion but frowns on suicide.

[BDunnell]

There is something of an amusing irony about a society, any society, that allows abortion but frowns on suicide.

I am not 'frowning on' suicide. Neither do I revel in the idea of anybody committing it.

[Camelopard]

I have seen first hand what suicide can do to a family and it isn't nice.

http://www.anikafoundation.com/

[Hondo]

Interestingly I note that you didn't comment on a post I made in the economic downturn thread exactly along these lines..... maybe you think it's alright to rip off millions and even billions, but not a few thousand.

OK for bankers to rort the system for huge amounts and stuff up the world economy, but not ok to be a politician and overstate a few allowances. Ever cheated on your tax return?

I may not have read it or not have been moved by it. But I'll answer it now. Politicians, or public servants if you will, have a duty to absolutely be above reproach. They are employees, hired by their constituents, to do the job of handling both the money and the best interests of their employers to the absolute best of their ability. They are not forced into these jobs, they campaign for them striving to assure the public they are worthy of their confidence. I can think of no earthly reason why legitimate expenses incurred while in the performance of the public's business should need to kept secret. Unfortunately, unlike private executives, most politicians cannot be fired from office immediately upon the discovery of shady dealings.

You make a point of the dollar amounts. You are comparing private sector jobs with public sector jobs. That banker was not elected or hired by the public or even the bank's customers. He was hired by the bank's officers or in some cases, shareholders, not to look after the bank's customers but to increase the bank's profits. These huge sums of money made by the banks could not have been without the politicians greasing the wheels and looking the other direction.

I tell you this, If I were an Englishman that had my medication stopped until I had lost the use of one eye because the health system I had been forced to pay into my entire working life was short of money while reading about my representatives frolicking about with expense allowances, I'd be far beyond merely pissed.

[Camelopard]

I may not have read it or not have been moved by it. But I'll answer it now. Politicians, or public servants if you will, have a duty to absolutely be above reproach. They are employees, hired by their constituents, to do the job of handling both the money and the best interests of their employers to the absolute best of their ability. They are not forced into these jobs, they campaign for them striving to assure the public they are worthy of their confidence. I can think of no earthly reason why legitimate expenses incurred while in the performance of the public's business should need to kept secret. Unfortunately, unlike private executives, most politicians cannot be fired from office immediately upon the discovery of shady dealings.

You make a point of the dollar amounts. You are comparing private sector jobs with public sector jobs. That banker was not elected or hired by the public or even the bank's customers. He was hired by the bank's officers or in some cases, shareholders, not to look after the bank's customers but to increase the bank's profits. These huge sums of money made by the banks could not have been without the politicians greasing the wheels and looking the other direction.

I tell you this, If I were an Englishman that had my medication stopped until I had lost the use of one eye because the health system I had been forced to pay into my entire working life was short of money while reading about my representatives frolicking about with expense allowances, I'd be far beyond merely pissed.

So it's ok for an employee to rip off the system but not a politician?

If I was the 90 year old man who had to go back to work because Madroff stole his money I'd be very pissed off as well.

[BDunnell]

I can think of no earthly reason why legitimate expenses incurred while in the performance of the public's business should need to kept secret.

I agree. The attempts to keep the information secret were a disgrace.


You are comparing private sector jobs with public sector jobs.

There is a comparison to be made. When all is said and done, it is our money that is involved.

I do not consider it appropriate for, to give one example, a company credit card being used to pay for an expensive evening in a lap-dancing club. That is not a responsible way of using that company's revenue.

I expect the same standards to be met by the public and private sectors. This is neither hard nor impossible. It is also increasingly desirable when one considers the increasing private sector involvement in public services. Private companies engaged in the delivery of such essential services should uphold the same rules of financial openness as are now being imposed upon politicians. After all, they are delivering public services funded in large part through public revenues.

[Camelopard]

I agree. The attempts to keep the information secret were a disgrace.



There is a comparison to be made. When all is said and done, it is our money that is involved.

I do not consider it appropriate for, to give one example, a company credit card being used to pay for an expensive evening in a lap-dancing club. That is not a responsible way of using that company's revenue.

I expect the same standards to be met by the public and private sectors. This is neither hard nor impossible. It is also increasingly desirable when one considers the increasing private sector involvement in public services. Private companies engaged in the delivery of such essential services should uphold the same rules of financial openness as are now being imposed upon politicians. After all, they are delivering public services funded in large part through public revenues.

Yep, again I agree and to expect politicians or any elected official to be beyond reproach is naive.

[Roamy]

I think suicide is a personal issue and should be left at that !!

[BDunnell]

I think suicide is a personal issue and should be left at that !!

I may disagree with you more often than not, but you've hit the nail on the head there.

[Camelopard]

I think suicide is a personal issue and should be left at that !!

Hey Fousto for once, (well maybe a few times, but I'm not saying) I actually have to agree with you........... :)



Although you ain't comin' over all euroweenie on us, are you? :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well as someone who has had a family member pass due to suicide, it is something I don't joke about lightly and I wouldn't wish on any family to lose a member that way, even that of a politician I didn't like. Heck, if you advocate that, how about advocating asasssiniation of unpopular pols? Heck, don't throw him out of office, just give him a .45 caliber slug in the head. That'll teach em....

Fiero, you usually are right to some degree on a lot of things, ( something the Euro's on the board would disagree with ) but on this one you are a little over the top.

I despise crooked politicians. I despise people being elected to massage their ego's and set themselves up for future life. In Canada, a member of Parliament who survives 6 years ( two, maybe three elections tops) gets a full indexed pension that I would never see. I have little time for all of this, but I also know in many ways we get in politics what we pay for. You pay politicians peanuts, they will try to find ways to make the dough under the table or after they leave office. If we paid them more, they still might not be what we want.

What I would love to see is term limits. 2 elections and out the door you go if you are a MP or Congressman in the the US. Senators should be one term wonders. Great pay, no pensions. That way these guys wouldn't be worrying about reelection and fundrasising constantly and would concentrate on doing something for the public.

I do believe about one third of the politicians are the guys Ben described himself working for, regardless of their political stripe. The other two thirds are either corrupt when they think of being elected or get corrupted over time. I think the system with its perks corrupts. I still though find examples of politicians of all stripes in a few different nations I have heard and admired. If I truly believed they were all theiving B@stards, I would be an ancharist who would have dropped off the taxpaying radar a long time ago...

[Mark in Oshawa]

Hey Fousto for once, (well maybe a few times, but I'm not saying) I actually have to agree with you........... :)



Although you ain't comin' over all euroweenie on us, are you? :)

Not personal for the family left behind brother...trust me on that one...

[BDunnell]

Not personal for the family left behind brother...trust me on that one...

I certainly took 'personal' in the loose sense of including immediate family and friends.

[Camelopard]

Not personal for the family left behind brother...trust me on that one...

I posted a link earlier then removed the post, I too have had a close family member commit suicide and it's not very pleasant.


http://www.anikafoundation.com

[Hondo]

So it's ok for an employee to rip off the system but not a politician?

If I was the 90 year old man who had to go back to work because Madroff stole his money I'd be very pissed off as well.

I didn't say it was ok for anyone to rip anyone off, I said the politician should be above reproach and held to a higher standard.

I'm a 55 year old man, laid off in Aug 2008. I have worked a total of 7 weeks of temporary work since then. My investment accounts (self directed) are worth about a third of what they were before the crash. I have CODP and a thyroid that went south. The majority of my working life was in skilled crafts. I got completely out of debt when Reagen was President and have paid in cash ever since. I have not filed for nor received any government benefits. The companies I worked for paid for my college education through their in house programs. I pay my own way, my own ultilities, medical bills, and everyhing else required to live on out of my own pocket, from money I've earned.

If and when your idealistic self reaches 90, then come tell me how you feel.

[Hondo]

Mark the problem with term limits, of which I'm against, is that the few good ones and I do mean very few, are forced out. What is disturbing about the MP thing is that all of them went along with the game, whether they were players in it or not. The leak didn't come from an mp. They kept the whole thing quiet. I'm sure even the innocent heard rumors or stories about what was going on. If you condone it through silence or in activity, you're just as guilty.

[BDunnell]

I pay my own way, my own ultilities, medical bills, and everyhing else required to live on out of my own pocket, from money I've earned.

And this is notable how, exactly? I suspect most people here could say the same. With whose money do you think I pay my utility bills and living costs?

[Hondo]

And this is notable how, exactly? I suspect most people here could say the same. With whose money do you think I pay my utility bills and living costs?


Do it while you're unemployed, without the government healthcare and the council this and council that.

[BDunnell]

Mark the problem with term limits, of which I'm against, is that the few good ones and I do mean very few, are forced out. What is disturbing about the MP thing is that all of them went along with the game, whether they were players in it or not. The leak didn't come from an mp. They kept the whole thing quiet. I'm sure even the innocent heard rumors or stories about what was going on. If you condone it through silence or in activity, you're just as guilty.

In my experience, MPs don't often tend to spend their spare time discussing the furniture they've just bought or their mortgage arrangements. I would suggest that quite a lot, as some have said publicly, had no idea that such claims as have caused the greatest controversy were possible.

[Hondo]

In my experience, MPs don't often tend to spend their spare time discussing the furniture they've just bought or their mortgage arrangements. I would suggest that quite a lot, as some have said publicly, had no idea that such claims as have caused the greatest controversy were possible.


But others did. In the USA the party that controls the Congress is who decides what gets investigated. The fact that the Democrats control the Congress and the Senate and have not screamed to the high heavens for independant investigations of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac speaks volumes about which party was in control of the business practices of both companies. As you probably know, both those firms are considered to be a large part of the current economic crash.

[Hondo]

Yep, again I agree and to expect politicians or any elected official to be beyond reproach is naive.

To expect an elected official to be beyond reproach is not naive, it is demanding a high standard that many can meet.

To believe that standard is naive and impossible to obtain merely opens the door to the slime that does slither in. Maybe doing our own research on the candidates is too bothersome in which case we deserve what we get.

[Camelopard]

To expect an elected official to be beyond reproach is not naive, it is demanding a high standard that many can meet.

Sorry, Mother Teresa is dead, or hadn't you heard?

Mind you even she apparently had a few skeletons in the closet!

[GridGirl]

The MP's in question have been extremely naive in thinking the general public wouldn't be angry with them claiming for new toilet seats and floating duck ponds but they have done nothing illegal. There are other issues relating to second home switching and capital gains tax which are somewhat questionable but still I presume the MP's were acting in the advice of others. I happen to know a little about capital gains but not everyone does.

If MP's were paying taxes on their expenses then they wouldn't have been claiming for such ridiculous items in the first place and only on essential expenditure.

[BDunnell]

To expect an elected official to be beyond reproach is not naive, it is demanding a high standard that many can meet.

I generally agree, although it does depend on one's individual definition of what 'beyond reproach' means. It is easily possible for a politician to meet a high standard. None of us are perfect, though.

[BDunnell]

The MP's in question have been extremely naive in thinking the general public wouldn't be angry with them claiming for new toilet seats and floating duck ponds...

A floating duck pond that, it transpires, saw little use! This is the brilliant quote from Peter Viggers MP who attempted to make that claim: "I paid for it myself and in fact it was never liked by the ducks and is now in storage."


...but they have done nothing illegal.

There are a few who might find themselves facing criminal charges, I suppose. In that case, the people in the Parliamentary Fees Office who allowed and apparently encouraged some of these claims should be charged as well.

[GridGirl]

I meant illegal in terms of the fact that there was no law stating they shouldn't be claiming for certain items nor some legislation or rules that discloses what should be deemed as a reasonable expense but yes there are some MP's who have taken it too far with claiming expenses for non existent mortgage interest if that's what your are referring to.

[BDunnell]

I meant illegal in terms of the fact that there was no law stating they shouldn't be claiming for certain items nor some legislation or rules that discloses what should be deemed as a reasonable expense but yes there are some MP's who have taken it too far with claiming expenses for non existent mortgage interest if that's what your are referring to.

Yes, it was. But you are of course right — very little of the rest of it has either breached the law or Parliamentary rules. Modifying the Parliamentary rules relating to expenses ought to be a fairly straightforward process, but it will require reform of Parliament's internal systems, and this will probably prove harder than getting the agreement of MPs. The Parliamentary authorities are, in my opinion, far more 'set in their ways' than the majority of MPs.

[Hondo]

I meant illegal in terms of the fact that there was no law stating they shouldn't be claiming for certain items nor some legislation or rules that discloses what should be deemed as a reasonable expense but yes there are some MP's who have taken it too far with claiming expenses for non existent mortgage interest if that's what your are referring to.

You are correct about all not being illegal but by insisting the entire process be kept secret and away from public inspection creates a breeding ground for the sort of tomfoolery that was going on. I don't begrudge any of them claiming legitimate and reasonable expenses while in the actual course of performing the public's business. But the public has the right to know what their money is being spent on, in the name of expenses. I do condemn all of them for keeping the system secret.

[GridGirl]

The information relating to MP's expenses was due to become public knowledge in July anyway. It just happens that someone has leaked the information early and we're having exactly the same debate now compared to the one that we would most probably be having in two months time. The only difference is that someone has made themselves a few quid of thier own by selling the information to a newspaper early.

[BDunnell]

But certain — not all — MPs wanted the information to remain secret and sought to block publication. Not everything about the coverage has been to my liking but I think the Daily Telegraph, certainly not my favourite newspaper, has performed something of a public service in publishing the contents.

[GridGirl]

I do agree with certain arguments about MP's not wanting thier addresses published because I wouldn't want all and sundry knowing where I live either. Apart from that; I can't see any legitimate reason why any MP could have sucessfully prevented the information from becoming public knowledge in July. They have known for a considerable period of time that the information which relates to a four year period was to be disclosed so it should come as no great shock to them.

[Mark in Oshawa]

But certain — not all — MPs wanted the information to remain secret and sought to block publication. Not everything about the coverage has been to my liking but I think the Daily Telegraph, certainly not my favourite newspaper, has performed something of a public service in publishing the contents.

Something of a public service? You mean they DID a public service by exposign this BS. And the Tele? Horrors Ben, you might end up swinging a little closer to the center yet. I would dead before you had an epiphiny and became a right of center sort of chap but there is hope it seems.....


As for politicians, as I said before, I figure 1/3 of em are good, 1/3 are corruptable, and 1/3 are crooks going in. I just wish the public was better at seeing through the BS and getting rid of the 2/3 not worth keeping...

[BDunnell]

Something of a public service? You mean they DID a public service by exposign this BS.

The reason I qualified it is because some of the coverage has been a bit unnecessary. Highlighting most of it has been very worthwhile, but not all.

[Hondo]

Shouldn't come as a surprise. Ben swings to what believes in as right, right as in correct. Just because he maintains a certain respect for government and politicians, doesn't mean he condones the bad ones. Every one of these rotten apples that turns up makes it harder for him to convince others not to lose the faith. I don't question his integrity and perhaps he ought to look at an mp run as an independant. I don't think Ben could run as Labor or Conservative without pi$$ing off the party on a regular basis by voting against the party line, for what he thought was right.

[Hondo]

Dr. Richard Taylor, an mp who seems to know what is expected of him and tries to do it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/dr-richard-taylor-you-ask-the-questions-1690433.html

[Mark in Oshawa]

The reason I qualified it is because some of the coverage has been a bit unnecessary. Highlighting most of it has been very worthwhile, but not all.
If a politician is abusing the system, it should be exposed. Full stop....

[Camelopard]

More supposed rorting and this bloke isn't even a politician!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1187273/Britains-Got-Talents-breakdancing-pensioner-claiming-70-week-disability-benefits-bad-leg.html

[Hondo]

More supposed rorting and this bloke isn't even a politician!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1187273/Britains-Got-Talents-breakdancing-pensioner-claiming-70-week-disability-benefits-bad-leg.html


Well, if he was a PM, at least you'd get a show while he was scamming you.

[Hondo]

More support for MPs.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/25/mps-expenses-democracy

Not bad, although puzzling as to how she concludes all this "undermines" and "endangers" democracy. If a sitting MP gets enough votes to retain their office, that is democracy. If an MP loses their seat because of a lack of votes, that is democracy. If celebrities, EU obsessives, Labor, Conservatives, Greens, or the BNP win the office through the voting process, that is democracy. Lady, democracy is a method of choice determined by a majority. It does not cease to be a democracy because the majority chose someone you don't like.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It is simply amazing. People like democracy until someone is elected they dont' agree with, and then they can be very bitter about it. It is part of life, having part of your life ruled by politicians you consider idiots. However, the idiots are mostly benign compared to a dictator or some ruler who really doesn't give a toss what you think and you have NO way of getting rid of them. What is killing our modern democracies is voter apathy. Too many people don't care or refuse to pay attention to what is going on, and either vote stupidly or don't vote at all, figuring all the politicians are the same. They will be if you don't toss the rats off the ship on a regular basis...

[555-04Q2]

What a heartbreaker. The very same folks that want to make sure every penny you put in your pocket, everything you buy, and everything you own has a clear trail back to you so they can tax the hell out of it are now distraught because you found out how they play with your tax money, something they didn't want you to know.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKTRE54L1VG20090522

I know some utopian idealists are going to try to defend these scum but how can you do it with a straight face? I've known quite a few politicians. Some held an office and some never got past the wanna-be stage. Every last one of them ranged from being a mild egotist to an outright god-like egotist. All of them had a touch of the scoundrel in them, the smarter ones being cautious about who got to see or hear the scoundrel. Once elected, their entire focus shifted to being re-elected. Every move they made was geared towards keeping themselves in office. Politicians don't think highly of their constituents. They fear them at re-election, but they don't like them. The brilliant egotist, fashionably dressed, doesn't like being reminded that technically, he is the employee of that poor schmuck standing in the ditch wondering why his weedeater won't start. The superior always hates having to answer to the inferior. Just ask Max.

Here comes part 2. " they have to put in long hours...they have to maintain 2 homes....yada yada yada", bullcrap. I would hope anyone running for public office has researched the kind of time the job requires and what the job pays. Much of those long hours are devoted to the kind of activities that are geared to, you guessed it, re-election. You have to address the ladies garden group, make a little speech at the businessman's supper, etc. Just being there looking like you care will get you by. Once they've lost their issue they'll tell each other "well we know he tried, he was at our meeting, I'd vote for him again." Thats where those long hours go. As far as pay goes, if you can't afford to take the job, don't run for it. If you truly yearn to live a life of public service for the sake of serving the public, then the pay will probably be adequate to see you through. It probably pays better than other public service jobs like teaching, librarians, policeman, park rangers, etc. There's public service for you. I have yet to see a politician leave office worse off financially than he was when he took the office.

If some of these politicians are so upset as to be considering suicide over their expenses, hey, have at it. I won't stop you.

I dont see what all the fuss is about. Politicians are employed to lie to the people about what they are going to do for you, knowing full well that they will be lucky if they achieve 50% of what they promise.

How can you expect someone who is employed to lie to us, the people, to be an honest Joe?

I say drown all politicians and replace them with monkeys as they couldnt do a worse job and they work for banana's.

[Hondo]

Rats can swim and climb back aboard. Dead rats do neither.

[Hondo]

After further review, not to mention seeing various photos and media clips, I can understand Jacqui Smith's husband's need for the porno videos. I think those expenses should be allowed out of mercy.

[driveace]

How come a Conservative MP,Phillip Hollowbone of Kettering ONLY claims £47K expenses,BUT a Labour MP Eric Joyce from Falkirk claims £187K?
Does Mr Joyce have a private jet?
Does GREED come to mind ?

[Hondo]

How come a Conservative MP,Phillip Hollowbone of Kettering ONLY claims £47K expenses,BUT a Labour MP Eric Joyce from Falkirk claims £187K?
Does Mr Joyce have a private jet?
Does GREED come to mind ?


He only claimed £47K in expenses because he was being Conservative abd didn't want to expend the Labour to claim more.


lol...sometimes I kill me....

[Lousada]

ONLY 47000 ???????? I have to work years for that!

[Malbec]

After further review, not to mention seeing various photos and media clips, I can understand Jacqui Smith's husband's need for the porno videos. I think those expenses should be allowed out of mercy.

When I first read the headlines about MP expenses I was hoping for something properly juicy. Something along the lines of Brown buying a stake in a newspaper using government money, something REALLY corrupt.

Sorry but half these expense claims don't bother me. Of course the idiot who claimed for the mortgage that didn't exist deserves a criminal trial and some of the other fraudulent claims do too but we need to strike a balance here.

Who do you want representing you Fiero? A halfwit who can only get a job as a cleaner or a professional who can take informed decisions on your behalf and in the interests of the electorate? If the latter then you're going to have to have a basic salary capable of tempting the appropriate calibre of people and an expenses system that can reimburse them fairly. Most of those people with the appropriate skills are in well paid jobs as the private sector values them. The state therefore has to pay them sufficiently well to woo them.

What we've seen over the past few weeks are a minority of MPs who have fiddled the system. Is that more or less than in a private company? I've been out with mates who have paid for the whole night out and put it on company entertainment expenses. Is that better or worse than what some of those MPs did? Or is it excusable because its private money rather than public?

I don't like the tone of jealousy and envy in much of the reporting surrounding expenses, I suspect many people in the UK or the US would like to see no expenses paid whatsoever. Is envy really a sound principle to use when sorting out the expense system? (I definitely agree that the expenses system needs to be tightened up btw).

Pay peanuts and you'll get monkeys. Don't know if you have that saying in the US but I believe the principle is universal. I don't want monkeys making political decisions for me, do you?

[Hondo]

As I have stated before, I understand the need and have no objections to reimbursement of necessary and reasonable expenses incurred while doing the public's business. Having said that, there should be no earthly reason why the public shouldn't be able to review for what their money is being used. These people have long resisted having their expenditures seen in the light of day.

I'm sure some of it is based on class warfare, but when the common folks have every penny they make, everything they buy, and everything they owned taxed and documented with a paper trail in the extreme so the taxing authorities can plunder every last dime from them, I don't begrudge them knowing how their employees are beating the system.

I've been in many a high class watering hole and have flown first class enough to know the well educated, well heeled, and well off also enjoy peanuts. The job, with the exception of the pensions, is not about money, it's about power. With money, you can buy limited power but with power you can make unlimited money.

Higher pay doesn't mean you get the best. It means when you get a crook in there, he has more expensive tastes. Not much different than Bernie Madoff or the punk that robs the liquor store. They're both crooks, it's just a matter of scale.

I'm a reasonably educated man but not a genuis. About 4 years ago when I was looking to buy a house it didn't take me long to realize that house prices were at least double what the houses should actually be worth. I figured a big part of that was caused by ridiculously low mortgage rates. I told a realtor friend of mind when reality hits, these people are going to be stuck with a house that they'll never be able to sell without taking a beating. Now if a guy that spent most of his life as a blue collar hand earning about $70,000 a year can figure that out, some analyst making $200,000 a year and bonuses should have been able to figure it out too. You can go into any government, business, and military organization and figure out you could have gotten at least equal and probably better people for the same or less money. I'm sure by now Toyota understands they could have gotten somebody just a bad as Ralf for far less money. And BARF1, well, we won't go there.

All these politicians know what the job pays and the hours it entails when they run for office. If they don't like the pay scale they don't have to seek the job. Look at how many actually take a pay cut (on paper) to work as a public official. They didn't take it for what shows up on their check stub. As they say in the gambling business, "The money is in the side bets.".

[Hondo]

Great photo, I love it!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/picturegalleries/5437491/Sign-language-week-52.html

[Mark in Oshawa]

As I have stated before, I understand the need and have no objections to reimbursement of necessary and reasonable expenses incurred while doing the public's business. Having said that, there should be no earthly reason why the public shouldn't be able to review for what their money is being used. These people have long resisted having their expenditures seen in the light of day.

I'm sure some of it is based on class warfare, but when the common folks have every penny they make, everything they buy, and everything they owned taxed and documented with a paper trail in the extreme so the taxing authorities can plunder every last dime from them, I don't begrudge them knowing how their employees are beating the system.

I've been in many a high class watering hole and have flown first class enough to know the well educated, well heeled, and well off also enjoy peanuts. The job, with the exception of the pensions, is not about money, it's about power. With money, you can buy limited power but with power you can make unlimited money.

Higher pay doesn't mean you get the best. It means when you get a crook in there, he has more expensive tastes. Not much different than Bernie Madoff or the punk that robs the liquor store. They're both crooks, it's just a matter of scale.

I'm a reasonably educated man but not a genuis. About 4 years ago when I was looking to buy a house it didn't take me long to realize that house prices were at least double what the houses should actually be worth. I figured a big part of that was caused by ridiculously low mortgage rates. I told a realtor friend of mind when reality hits, these people are going to be stuck with a house that they'll never be able to sell without taking a beating. Now if a guy that spent most of his life as a blue collar hand earning about $70,000 a year can figure that out, some analyst making $200,000 a year and bonuses should have been able to figure it out too. You can go into any government, business, and military organization and figure out you could have gotten at least equal and probably better people for the same or less money. I'm sure by now Toyota understands they could have gotten somebody just a bad as Ralf for far less money. And BARF1, well, we won't go there.

All these politicians know what the job pays and the hours it entails when they run for office. If they don't like the pay scale they don't have to seek the job. Look at how many actually take a pay cut (on paper) to work as a public official. They didn't take it for what shows up on their check stub. As they say in the gambling business, "The money is in the side bets.".

There are honest politicians out there Fiero, but for the most part, I agree with everything you said there.

[Hondo]

Another new buzz phrase, in regards to the MP expenses.

"...has caused the voters to lose confidence in their government..."

It hasn't caused anyone to lose confidence in their government, if anything it has increased confidence in the government because the voters were confident that this sort of nonsense has been going on for a long time.

[Hondo]

Ha ha ha...almost everything on this page has been censored. These are the records in the condition upon which they agreed to release to you, the people that paid for them.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23708990-details/Key+details+of+MPs%27+expenses+censored/article.do

The whole stinking lot of them should be removed and made to stand for office again, should they desire to keep it, immediately. It' nothing short of fraud by participation, collusion, or both.

So much for "a few bad apples". It's enough to make you give up apples completely.

[Hondo]

What did I say about the money being in the side bets?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6544213.ece

[GridGirl]

Today is the day when people actually like auditors :o :D :s In honour of such a shocking and unpresidented occassion I thought that I would revive this thread before you all go back to disliking us. :p

Any new thoughts on the issue?