Big Carl Long Fine

[youtellme]

Who the heck is Carl Long anyway???

NASCAR hands down suspension, record fine

Buzz up!10 votes PrintCHARLOTTE, N.C. (AP)—NASCAR has suspended driver Carl Long for the next 12 Sprint Cup races and fined crew chief Charles Swing $200,000, the largest penalty in the sport’s history.

Swing also was suspended until Aug. 18 for using an engine that was too big for NASCAR’s specifications last weekend at Lowe’s Motor Speedway.

Long was docked a NASCAR-record 200 points. Additionally, Swing and Long were placed on probation until Dec. 31.

Car owner Danielle Long, Carl’s wife, also was suspended 12 races, docked 200 owner points and placed on probation until Dec. 31.

The record fine exceeds the $150,000 Robby Gordon’s crew chief, Frank Kerr, received in March 2008. Several drivers and owners have been docked 100 points in recent years.

Long has made just 23 career Cup starts, and has not appeared in a points-paying Cup race since 2006.

He finished last in the 35-car field in a qualifying event for Saturday night’s All-Star race, dropping out after three laps because of an engine problem.

Long, who also failed to qualify for the season-opening Daytona 500, first had engine trouble during practice last Friday. The team switched engines, and under NASCAR rules, the sanctioning body examined the bad engine.

NASCAR discovered an issue and sent the engine to the Research & Development Center for more tests, which determined the engine exceeded maximum cubic inch displacement specifications.

[harvick#1]

I'll say it once and I'll say it again.

Nascar loves punishing the little guys but gives a slap of the wrist to the Gibbs, Hendricks, Roush's, etc...

what a joke

[RaceFanStan]

Carl Long is an independent owner/driver who races on a limited schedule.
(He is usually unsponsored.)
Long attempts a few Cup races a year but is usually a DNQ.
Carl Long operates on a very low budget, a $200,000 fine will likely shut him down.

[youtellme]

I did a little checking as he just puts a buzz in my mind..
HE IS THE ONE who DW bought his car for a ride so he could be in the field.
Darlington or maybe a big track? either way he made more money on that deal than he as made in racing,

Knew it was something he was noted for.

[Lee Roy]

I remember NASCAR suspending Junior Johnson's team (when Geoff Bodine was driving for him) for 4 races (don't recall the fine) for having too large of an engine in the Winston.

[Sparky1329]

Carl made it for 3 laps before his engine blew in the Showdown. He got $5,000 for participating. I don't disagree with the suspension but a $200,000.00 fine seems like overkill to me.

[Lee Roy]

Carl made it for 3 laps before his engine blew in the Showdown. He got $5,000 for participating. I don't disagree with the suspension but a $200,000.00 fine seems like overkill to me.

Me too.

[Wade91]

if anyone isn't sure who Carl Long is, you will probably remember his car flipping over at rockingham in 2004 :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ4LEUmfSp0

i really dont see the point in suuch a penalty

[Lee Roy]

I just wonder where Long got the engine from? Did he build it himself (which I doubt), or did it come from a commercial source somewhere or a team with engine building capability?

[Jonesi]

There's more on Jayski about it now. Bought the engine from a builder, had no idea it was 358.17.
(Is 0.17 too much, even an overbore? Seems more like someone honed a tired engine block too much.) To put this in perspective. A Cup engine makes about 2 1/4 - 2 1/3 HP per cubic inch. So the over size added 1/2 horse power, maybe? You can get a biger improvement by putting in a new air filter.
To look at it from the other side; If you're buying engines from someone else, you sure should check the engines yourself to make sure they're legal. I think an accurate tool is only about ~$50.
So he probably deserves the $ "dumb jerk" penalty, not the $$$ "cheating b******" penalty.

[Lee Roy]

I would hope that NASCAR would take some of the mitigating circumstances into consideration and lower, or suspend the fine.

[RaceFanStan]

I remember NASCAR suspending Junior Johnson's team (when Geoff Bodine was driving for him) for 4 races (don't recall the fine) for having too large of an engine in the Winston.
The purists won't like what I am about to say ...
Richard Petty won a Cup POINTS race with an oversized engine,
Richard Petty was allowed to keep the win but he was fined the prize money.
Crewchief Dale Inman KNEW the engine was illegal but Petty claimed he didn't know.
(I think it was somewhere in the near $40,000 range ...)
(I think it was in the 80's but I can't remember which race it was.)

[RaceFanStan]

Carl made it for 3 laps before his engine blew in the Showdown. He got $5,000 for participating. I don't disagree with the suspension but a $200,000.00 fine seems like overkill to me.
I agree the $200,000.00 fine is excessive.
I can't call it overkill because I really think it is NASCAR's attempt to KILL Carl Long Racing.
NASCAR will probably succeed in destroying another struggling 1 car team. :s

[call_me_andrew]

I didn't think NASCAR would bother inspecting the engine on a last place car that couldn't finish the race.

[harvick#1]

I agree the $200,000.00 fine is excessive.
I can't call it overkill because I really think it is NASCAR's attempt to KILL Carl Long Racing.
NASCAR will probably succeed in destroying another struggling 1 car team. :s

overkill indeed, major teams can bring illegal cars a get a penalty that sends them to the back of the pack. Nascar needs to be fair on its penalty system. It's become a farce and no reason Nascar and Brian france are a joke.

[RaceFanStan]

Carl Long sits last (69th) in points.
His points are -200.
He attempted to make the Daytona 500 & possibly a few other races this year.
It has to be frustating to be facing such a big fine for an engine bought from someone else.
(I doubt that he has the money.)

The engine was only 0.17 over, that makes me think WTF !!! :s

[BobbyC]

This could be backlash if he decides to rat out the engine builder. It could result in a suspension for the guilty party.

[Nem14]

Is NASCAR's mgmt just freaking amazing or what.

[Wade91]

NASCAR probalby wouldn't have handed down such a harsh penilty if it had been one of the sports stars

[RaceFanStan]

Yeah, had it been Jimmie Johnston, 50 points & a $50,000 fine would probably have been the maximum ...
possibly a 12 race probation but NO suspensions !!!
Rick Hendrick could easily afford much more but most of his teams are on top right now. :s

I expect the same would be true for a Jack Roush or a Joe Gibbs driver, even though they trail HMS ...
NASCAR just won't hammer the big guys like they do the little teams. :rolleyes:

The difference 0f 0.17 cid is so minimal it should have been ignored IMO. http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif

[muggle not]

I gotta disagree with y'all. Long was in it to make a few bucks and that was the only reason. Through 2006, according to NASCAR.com, Carl made a total of 1,478,168 dollars. He made over a half mil in 2005 in 9 starts.

The illegal engine could help him improve his position in the race a few places and that meant more money for him. No sympathy from me, sorry.

[oldhippie]

Carl Long races with liitle money
my sympathy for him is that he bought the engine thinking it was good to go
the person who sold the oversize engine should be penalized not Carl Long
it seems so unfair to be fined points and big money for an engine that blewup anyway in a non points race

anybody remember T-Rex?
Evernham threw exotic metals and chassis tweaks because it was a nonpoints race
Jeff Gordon dominated and won the Winston walking away with the big check
nascar said to never bring T-Rex back but there was no fine or points penalty

can anybody explain the double standard for a nonpoints race?

[call_me_andrew]

Evernham didn't actually break any rules. NASCAR never said you had to use certain metals and can only build the suspension a certain way. The car still conformed to the letter of the rules. An engine with a displacement of 358.17 inches against a limit of 358 inches does not conform to the letter of the rules.

[Jag_Warrior]

Carl Long is an independent owner/driver who races on a limited schedule.
(He is usually unsponsored.)
Long attempts a few Cup races a year but is usually a DNQ.
Carl Long operates on a very low budget, a $200,000 fine will likely shut him down.

Does NASCAR have the legal authority to collect the money if he decides to just hang it up and stop racing?

I understand the need for rules and penalties, but this is overkill to an extreme. Max Mosley might be working for NASCAR part time now.

[call_me_andrew]

I'm sure the entry form includes information about being responsible for penalites and fines. NASCAR can sue for breach of contract.

Of course if they go that route, they risk exposing the rule book to public record.

[Jonesi]

Does NASCAR have the legal authority to collect the money if he decides to just hang it up and stop racing?

I understand the need for rules and penalties, but this is overkill to an extreme. Max Mosley might be working for NASCAR part time now.

No, if he decides to leave Nascar they have no recourse to collect the fine.

[RaceFanStan]

... it seems so unfair to be fined points and big money for an engine that blewup anyway in a non points race ...
Yeah, it makes little sense to issue a points penalty for a non-points event. :crazy:
As to the money the fine seems extremely excessive IMO. :crazy:

[youtellme]

There's more on Jayski about it now. Bought the engine from a builder, had no idea it was 358.17.
(Is 0.17 too much, even an overbore? Seems more like someone honed a tired engine block too much.) ...


if my math is correct, that equates to .001 - .0015 inch per cylinder in added bore size. cylinder walls within the block do indeed enlarge with wear and tear that does create a slighty larger bore.

throw in the fact that the thing could have torched a head gasket when it got hot, it would be realtively easy to explain the slightly larger bore size.

this fine and suspension is B.S.

nascar has taken a page from bill clinton's play book. when monica and bill were in the news, bill offered up a distraction to divert attention. same thing here with carl long............

[youtellme]

SEE what they did today:

CONCORD, N.C. (AP)—NASCAR randomly drug-tested 10 crew members from 10 teams during the rain delay at the Coca-Cola 600, an apparent tweak to the first three months of in-season testing.

Prior to Sunday night, crew chiefs said NASCAR typically informed them when the garage opened if a team member had been selected to give a sample. The individual had four hours to report to testing. Drivers can be tested on any day of the race weekend.

[RaceFanStan]

I wonder if anyone failed their drug test ... :eek:

[Lee Roy]

I wish that NASCAR would suspend the $200,000 fine and keep the points penalty. I think that would be a fair compromise. I really don't think that Long was trying to pull anything over on NASCAR.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well lets quit operating here on emotion and stop and think about what they are actually doing, not what we think they are doing.

First off, the rule says 358 CI. Not more, not one smidge more. You let a guy by with a 358.1 CI engine and I guarntee you absolutly every engine man in the garage has 358.1 CI engines within a week in every car on the grid. The rule is absolute and you are told by NASCAR NEVER EVER EVER Show up with a car that wont pass inspection on all the rules. They didn't check the engine size until after they pulled the motor for inspection after he blew it. He doesn't blow, no one is the wiser, so this wasn't a case of NASCAR looking for a pelt to add to their collection; what they did was routine.

Second, whether it is Carl Long or Rick Hendrick, every team was told when the COT was made the car of today, that any messing with the package would be treated differently than in the past. When the COT design was put forward, NASCAR decided they were going to crack the whip on the rules. No grey areas, no cheating tolerated. Look at the fines and punishments over the last two years. Crew Chiefs being sent home for 6 weeks. BIG guys like Knaus and Osborne. You think Hendricks and Roush liked the fines they had to pay and liked putting other chiefs on the box? After each round of fines and suspensions they basically told everyone that every time this keeps going, the fines and suspensions were going to go up. THEY HAVE. After the acid dipped Red Bulls last year, NASCAR read everyone the riot act and basically it was also put out there that god forbid anyone messed with the motor rules or there really would be hell to pay.

Carl Long got burned. They nailed him to the cross because the rest of the garage, the Rick Hendricks and Jack Roush's had to be shown a precedent. If they go easy on Carl, then Hendricks or Roush could argue quite forcefully justice wasn't blind; and they would be punished more harshly based on who they were. Now Carl isn't being punished for who he is, he is punished for having an oversize engine. PERIOD.

Now before anyone thinks I hate poor ole Carl, there is an obvious point all you forget. He can appeal, and the stockcar commision is independent of NASCAR; and when you consider someone like Buddy Baker is one of the commissioners on there, you have to know Carl will get a fair shake and likely the penalties will be adjusted in such a way that he will eventually be back in business. He likely should sue the engine supplier but from what I heard on his interview on Sirius, he wont because the guy was helping him out.

Carl will not have to pay that fine, but the penalty will likely be no more racing for the rest of the year. Considering Carl wasn't making shows anyhow, it may not be a horrible ending. Furthermore, that precedent would still scare the heck out of the big teams. No one would cheat if they lost a car or driver for the year. With the way NASCAR has been with suspensions and penalties the last two years, would you want to submit a cheater car? REALLY?

Carl Long was unfortunately the poor guy who was made an example of, but that example has to be made.

With the economy sucking, I doubt anyone in NASCAR wants Carl Long out of the business, but they wont let ANYONE cheat. NO WAY....NO HOW.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I wish that NASCAR would suspend the $200,000 fine and keep the points penalty. I think that would be a fair compromise. I really don't think that Long was trying to pull anything over on NASCAR.

He wasn't but as I said above, this isnt about Carl, this is about precedent. The Appeal process will deterimine what the real penalty is, but NASCAR sets the rules and punishment one size fits all now. It isn't the good ole days when Inman can give Richard that king sized motor and still keep a win.

[slorydn1]

if anyone isn't sure who Carl Long is, you will probably remember his car flipping over at rockingham in 2004 :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ4LEUmfSp0

i really dont see the point in suuch a penalty

I was there.....It was crazy seeing it from the other side of the track (My seats were at the top of the turn 1 grand stand). His wreck was right in the only blind spot I had on the track. Usually when cars went through there I couldn't see anything. All of a sudden I see a car, and I knew he HAD to be in the air because I could see him.....

As for the penalty thats absolutely ridiculous

[harvick#1]

Second, whether it is Carl Long or Rick Hendrick, every team was told when the COT was made the car of today, that any messing with the package would be treated differently than in the past. When the COT design was put forward, NASCAR decided they were going to crack the whip on the rules. No grey areas, no cheating tolerated. Look at the fines and punishments over the last two years. Crew Chiefs being sent home for 6 weeks. BIG guys like Knaus and Osborne. You think Hendricks and Roush liked the fines they had to pay and liked putting other chiefs on the box? After each round of fines and suspensions they basically told everyone that every time this keeps going, the fines and suspensions were going to go up. THEY HAVE. After the acid dipped Red Bulls last year, NASCAR read everyone the riot act and basically it was also put out there that god forbid anyone messed with the motor rules or there really would be hell to pay.

Carl Long got burned. They nailed him to the cross because the rest of the garage, the Rick Hendricks and Jack Roush's had to be shown a precedent. If they go easy on Carl, then Hendricks or Roush could argue quite forcefully justice wasn't blind; and they would be punished more harshly based on who they were. Now Carl isn't being punished for who he is, he is punished for having an oversize engine. PERIOD.


Sonoma 2007 ring a bell when the 24 and 48 showed up with illegal cars that even Nascar took them, NOW if Nascar had any balls that week, they would've told the 2 teams to pack up and leave the raceway. I remember Tony stewart was in a similar situation I believe at Texas in 2004, when Nascar took the car from it being illegal.

now, did these guys get forced to sit, hell no. They made the show in the backups while teams that brought legal cars were sent home because of the top 35 rules.

Now in my own opinion, any team that is found to have failed pre-race inspection, now matter how serious it is, they should be walk out of the Speedway (if they fail to fix the problem before they go back into inspection), and if its after post-race, all money and points are stripped. nothing else needs to be done, cause if they do it again, the same penalty happens


its the only way to restore dignity and to tell everyteam that cheating is not allowed nor tolerated.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Sonoma 2007 ring a bell when the 24 and 48 showed up with illegal cars that even Nascar took them, NOW if Nascar had any balls that week, they would've told the 2 teams to pack up and leave the raceway. I remember Tony stewart was in a similar situation I believe at Texas in 2004, when Nascar took the car from it being illegal.

now, did these guys get forced to sit, hell no. They made the show in the backups while teams that brought legal cars were sent home because of the top 35 rules.

Now in my own opinion, any team that is found to have failed pre-race inspection, now matter how serious it is, they should be walk out of the Speedway (if they fail to fix the problem before they go back into inspection), and if its after post-race, all money and points are stripped. nothing else needs to be done, cause if they do it again, the same penalty happens


its the only way to restore dignity and to tell everyteam that cheating is not allowed nor tolerated.


Sonoma rings a bell. The penalty I think should have been to send Jeff and Jimmie packing personally BUT you have to remember two things: One, it was one of the first penalties with the COT. NASCAR basically told people that the penalties would escalate as time went on. Second, NASCAR came out last winter and reminded teams going into this season that they were going to step up efforts to keep the cars legal and that god forbid anyone mess with a motor. WE all know Carl didn't mean to have an oversize motor, but we also know intent should never be a defining factor on whether to punish or not.

It is in the appeals process Carl will really see what the justice will be.

Also, if NASCAR banned Carl Long for a year, would people notice? Not the same way Jimmie or Jeff would be missed, so I will buy into the hypocracy on THAT point, but you can bet Jimmie or Jeff wouldn't have the car they wanted nor the crew members they wanted. Also, you can bet it would cost Rick Hendrick plenty, not to mention the cost of building a car that would now be sitting in the NASCAR tech lab. Also, if this is a HMS or Joe Gibb's car with a big motor, you can put slim and none down as the chances of winning an appeal. Carl I would wager will have a damned good chance. Still doesn't change the fact NASCAR has to enforce the rules.

As I said, you let this go by, and every engine builder in that garage will be building engines a few thousands over the line tomorrow. It is the slippery slope. It is how cars with conventional bodies in the 80's ended up being the twisted sister cars of 3 years ago.....

[harvick#1]

Long loses appeal

http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/news;_ylt=AsZQT9da3z97ibl95S4.AhiLCpJ4?slug=ap-nascar-longsuspended&prov=ap&type=lgns

[ms0362]

For the life of me I have never understood how a sports sanctioning body has the right to fine anyone any money. I believe they should be able to garnish purse money or suspend competitiors from competing in their sport, but that's it. It sounds like they have a hidden agenda since they started fining people money.

Furthermore, (with the big teams) fines obviously don't have any effect. Straight suspensions and only suspensions for obvious cheating would solve the problem. See how much would go on if Jimmie Johnson got docked 5 races.

[NickFalzone]

I agree, $$ fines are unfair. Hendrick 50k fine is a drop in the bucket. Smaller teams it can cause a layoff or two. Points and suspension from races is way to go. NASCAR should not be financially benefitting from a team's cheat or mistake.

[Lee Roy]

I agree, $$ fines are unfair. Hendrick 50k fine is a drop in the bucket. Smaller teams it can cause a layoff or two. Points and suspension from races is way to go. NASCAR should not be financially benefitting from a team's cheat or mistake.

Fines generally go into the points fund, not NASCAR's pocket.

[harvick#1]

Fines generally go into the points fund, not NASCAR's pocket.

I thought all fine money goes into a charity group (VJGC or a any other one)???

[Lee Roy]

I thought all fine money goes into a charity group (VJGC or a any other one)???

You are correct. They used to go into the Points Fund until 2008.


What happens to the money from the penalties?
Starting in 2008 all money collected from fines issued to drivers go to the NASCAR Foundation for its charitable initiatives, before the money collected from driver/crew member penalties are generally placed into the Drivers Points Fund awarded at the end of the season.

http://www.jayski.com/pages/penalties.htm

[Nem14]

So does that mean the fines are actually a charitable deduction?

[BobbyC]

After Petty's oversized engine in 1983, NASCAR decided to prevent this again by imposing a 12-week suspension for the involved parties (driver, owner, crew chief) of an oversized engine.

Long's penalty has been slightly reduced; this prohibits him only from the Sprint Cup paddock, but not lower-tier series. Front Row operates a Sprint Cup and Nationwide team, so he could simply be reassigned only to the NNS team crew, and get aroudn it.

NASCAR needs to seriously look at penalties for the engine builder too.

[Lee Roy]

So does that mean the fines are actually a charitable deduction?

Good question. I wonder if it would be considered a donation by the offender or by NASCAR?

[Mark in Oshawa]

...
NASCAR needs to seriously look at penalties for the engine builder too.

No Bobby, here is why: There is no evidence that the last guy to touch that engine was Ernie Elliot, who basically gave Long that motor when Ganassi went from Dodge to Chevy. We have no idea what was done to that motor after Long got it. There is no way of knowing and furthermore, it says in the NASCAR rules you present a car for inspection and you are responsible for all the parts and pieces, regardless of their origin.

Carl got screwed I think in the appeal, but the message is clear. Don't take a car through tech that isnt' legal. If you are not sure about something, don't take it to the track without clarification. Whatever happened in the past is the past. Since the COT, NASCAR has told everyone they are enforcing the rules with no thought to past practices. This is a brand new attitude and structure, and so far, they have been pretty consistent in that every penalty has been the same or worse than the previous one. The only question I have, when will they start executing crew chiefs? The penalties are getting to a pretty nasty level...