European Elections for the EU in Europe for the European Parliament. [Archive]

steve_spackman

15th May 2009, 22:37

The BNP seems to be getting very large amounts of supporters..Im not suprised, as this Labour government wants to hand our way of life over to a bunch of foreigners. Enough is enough

For years, the Labour Party have been taunting the Conservatives over Europe, accusing us of wanting to leave the EU altogether. We've always tended to go on the defensive, denying it entirely. I think we need to come out and say what most people I've talked to actually believe: we'd rather stay in, but not with the EU as it is, rather as a "Common Market" as we were promised in the first place. We should try to negotiate our way back to that situation - without the Common Agriculture Policy or the Common Fisheries Policy; without all the regulation and red tape; without a parliament, a flag, a diplomatic service, courts, a national anthem or a constitution (under that or any other name), or any of the other trappings of a nation state, and without a huge tax and subsidy system that burdens our own economy even further. And if we can't achieve that, then yes, we should indeed leave.

steve_spackman

15th May 2009, 22:47

The BNP is doing very well. I am not at all suprised really. I dont want a bunch foreigners telling me what i can and cant do..

A united european superstate.. wasn't this one of Adolf Hitler's goals in 1939?

EuroTroll

15th May 2009, 23:53

The BNP is doing very well. I am not at all suprised really. I dont want a bunch foreigners telling me what i can and cant do.

Interesting! Tell me Steve, what have them furriners made you do/not do that you did not like? :)

As for the BNP... well, I'm no expert on British politics, but from what little I've heard/read, I do think these people should be hospitalized a.s.a.p.

steve_spackman

16th May 2009, 00:38

Interesting! Tell me Steve, what have them furriners made you do/not do that you did not like? :)

They have taken away our national identity. We should leave the EU...

To end the drain on the country’s finances
To reintroduce the full authority of Westminster
To impose British policies on Agriculture and Fisheries
To capitalise on Britain’s individual national strengths
The ‘euro’ depends on ‘political integration’ so far not achieved‘
Protectionism’ is not free trade, it is inward-looking
Our legal system is not that of Napoleon: it has distinct merits
We must control OUR armed forces and how they are used

The EU was originally set up for trading purposes only.

Since joining the EU they have slowly but surely been eroding away the British way of life , our borders are no longer secure. We have to let every Tom ,Dick and Harry from member states in. The farming industry has been decimated, and reward is given for nonproduction. It has proved to be bad for the country economically, done nothing politically, and has given for one reason or another none of the benefits we joined to recieve.

steve_spackman

16th May 2009, 00:53

As for the BNP... well, I'm no expert on British politics, but from what little I've heard/read, I do think these people should be hospitalized a.s.a.p.

Why do you think that?

EuroTroll

16th May 2009, 06:10

Why do you think that?

Well, I don't wish to offend, but they seem to me to be populist nutters who feed on the basest of thoughts and the most irrational fears of people, promoting xenophobia and hatred.

Is that not so?

So the EU has taken away your national identity, eh? Eroded the British way of life? :)

Please, tell me more!
- What is the British way of life, and how is different from that of continental Europe?
- How has the EU achieved the robbing of your national identity? What was it? What is it now?
- What are the British "individual national strengths" that currently cannot be capitalised on because of the EU?

One thing I do agree with, though, is that the EU's policies on agriculture are rather stupid.

Here's how the money is spent:

http://ec.europa.eu/budget/img/budget_glance/pie_budget_en.jpg

You notice the 43% that goes for the development of "natural resources"...

And here's a map of the net contributors (colours from dark scarlet to orange) and the net recipients (colours from yellow to black):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/EU_net_budget_2007-2013_per_capita.png/590px-EU_net_budget_2007-2013_per_capita.png

This is the only rational reason, in my view, for some West-Europeans to not like the EU. They perceive it as unfair. "Why should we fund the East," they might say..

Well, why they should and how it's beneficial for them in the long run is another discussion entirely. ;) And let's also not forget that the EU's budget is around 1% of the EU countries' combined Gross National Income. So I'd go so far as to say that we're not talking about huge sums of money here, comparatively speaking.

Still, there is much room for improvement in how the money is spent, no question! I can understand your dissatisfaction regarding that.

Your claims that the EU has somehow ruined the British way of life, on the other hand, seem utterly laughable.

:laugh: <-- here's me laughing at that

Cooper_S

16th May 2009, 11:24

that must be an old map... the Republic of Ireland became a net contributor a few years ago...

I am and have always been a staunch supporter of the EEC, EC, EU and will continue to be so but will campaign for the kind of EU that I feel is right...

I do feel we are entering into an era where uninformed minority parties such as UKIP (spit) and the BNP (spit, spit) will have some electoral success in the forthcoming EU elections... and sadly that is down to the UK electorate being amongst the least informed of any member state...

Fun time ahead... maybe it is time for the UK to attempt to withdraw from the EU (a feat easier said than done) just so we can see just ho special the USA relationship is... I personally feel that the USA wants a friendly 'partner' inside the EU... if the UK where somehow leave the USA would turn to others still inside..

Also just because the UK where to leave (if it was possible) what makes you think the EU would treat the UK favorable with regards trade and travel...

BTCC Fan#1

16th May 2009, 12:22

I had the misfortune to recieve some BNP election material through the post yesterday, what a disgraceful bunch they are. 'Vote for us to Stop 80 million Muslim Turks swamping your country!'

The BNP are racist, homophobic thugs. You can add holocaust denial to that list as well. Truly they represent the worst in politics, and I think it would be awful to have Nick Griffin represent the North-West of England, an area larger than 10 EU countries, in the European parliament.

steve_spackman

16th May 2009, 15:08

The EU will never work..Different countries, different cultures, different historys, different languages.

I am NOT European..I am English...

As for the UKIP and BNP..its a sign of the times dont ya think? And its not because we are mis informed....

If you want to live in a EU superstate go for it...

The EU should of been left as it was meant to be..for trading purposes only. Not hand over the government to a foreign power.

steve_spackman

16th May 2009, 15:24

Your claims that the EU has somehow ruined the British way of life, on the other hand, seem utterly laughable. :laugh: <-- here's me laughing at that

From what i have seen from your posts, you know very little about Britain..

Im sure you like the idea of a Eurostate as im sure Estonia would have alot of benefits from it?

steve_spackman

16th May 2009, 15:41

The BNP are racist, homophobic thugs. You can add holocaust denial to that list as well. Truly they represent the worst in politics, and I think it would be awful to have Nick Griffin represent the North-West of England, an area larger than 10 EU countries, in the European parliament.

The BNP are racist, homophobic thugs? The BNP want to put the indigenous population first, opposed to the major parties who seem to put us last.

The enemies of British Nationalism continue to parrot the claim that the BNP is a “racist party.” This claim is most often repeated because the BNP unashamedly addresses itself to the issues and concerns of the indigenous British population, and because it seeks to ensure that British people remain the majority population in this country. Opponents point to the fact that the BNP has an all-white membership, and that they address issues concerning white people.

If the BNP is racist for holding this position, then, we would suggest, all of the following organisations - some of them state funded - are also “racist” because they too address themselves exclusively to the issues and concerns of their respective communities:

1. Watford Asian Community care

2. Watford African Caribbean Association

3. National Black Police Association

4. Metropolitan Black Police Association

5. Black Londoners Forum

6. Black Information Link (BLINK)

7. Operation Black Vote

8. Federation of Black Housing Organisations (FBHO)

9. Black Training Enterprise Group

I would suspect that Nelson Mandela agrees with putting his fellow black South Africans first; I wonder if that makes him racist?!?

EuroTroll

16th May 2009, 15:47

From what i have seen from your posts, you know very little about Britain..

Do educate me, then. ;) Can I repeat the questions?
- What is the British way of life, and how is different from that of continental Europe?
- How has the EU achieved the robbing of your national identity? What was it? What is it now?
- What are the British "individual national strengths" that currently cannot be capitalised on because of the EU?

Im sure you like the idea of a Eurostate as im sure Estonia would have alot of benefits from it?

Estonia is currently a net recipient, yes. It's unlikely to stay that way long, though, since Estonia's economic growth is normally way above the European average (although, currently, we're in deep recession). From 2000-2008, our average annual GDP growth rate was 8.6%.

I like the idea of a Eurostate because, unlike you, I identify myself as Estonian AND European. And I see way more benefits than drawbacks.

steve_spackman

16th May 2009, 15:53

Do educate me, then. ;) Can I repeat the questions?
- What is the British way of life,

Being British is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV.

steve_spackman

16th May 2009, 15:57

You should take a trip, then you can have first hand experience of the British way of life mate...Give it a try

EuroTroll

16th May 2009, 16:02

You should take a trip, then you can have first hand experience of the British way of life mate...Give it a try

I've spent a few weeks in Southern England a few years back. So I do have a bit of first hand experience. Which is part of the reason I find your posts so weird. :s

And it seems you're making no real attempt to explain what you meant with the seemingly meaningless slogans of post #7..

BDunnell

16th May 2009, 16:58

From what i have seen from your posts, you know very little about Britain..

I would suggest that you are the one who doesn't have a true picture of reality in Britain. I am British, I live in Britain, and I simply do not understand how anybody can say that British values (whatever they are - I hate the idea that there is one homogenous set of values to which we all belong on the grounds of nationality) have been eroded. This is an utterly meaningless concept that bears no serious analysis.

steve_spackman

16th May 2009, 17:04

I would suggest that you are the one who doesn't have a true picture of reality in Britain. I am British, I live in Britain, and I simply do not understand how anybody can say that British values (whatever they are - I hate the idea that there is one homogenous set of values to which we all belong on the grounds of nationality) have been eroded. This is an utterly meaningless concept that bears no serious analysis.

I was waiting for the backlash to arrive. So i have come to the point that i have given up on this subject due to my views are invalid and i will probably be marked as a racist too, which i am not.

BDunnell

16th May 2009, 17:04

I am NOT European..I am English...

What rubbish. You are both English, because you come from England, and European, because the last time I looked England was in Europe. Anyone who is from a European country is European. This is not a difficult concept.

As for the UKIP and BNP..its a sign of the times dont ya think? And its not because we are mis informed....

Anyone who votes for either of those parties is, in my opinion, an uninformed, xenophobic, probably paranoid and possibly racist moron who believes too much of what they read in the right-wing press. Their increasing support is, to me, a sign of the times in one sense - a sign that there are increasing numbers of people who should probably not be allowed to vote on grounds of stupidity.

BDunnell

16th May 2009, 17:06

I was waiting for the backlash to arrive. So i have come to the point that i have given up on this subject due to my views are invalid and i will probably be marked as a racist too, which i am not.

'The backlash'? You provide no evidence for anything you say and criticise others for mounting 'a backlash' against you? Quite incredible.

steve_spackman

16th May 2009, 17:06

BDunnell

16th May 2009, 17:08

Yet your avatar is the German flag??

Do you have a problem with this?

steve_spackman

16th May 2009, 17:08

'The backlash'? You provide no evidence for anything you say

Why bother when its just going to be dismissed

steve_spackman

16th May 2009, 17:09

Do you have a problem with this?

Not at all..just stating a fact.

BDunnell

16th May 2009, 17:10

Why bother when its just going to be dismissed

Because those of us who think that the notion of the 'British way of life' being eroded would be genuinely interested in your idea of what on earth this means.

BDunnell

16th May 2009, 17:10

Not at all..just stating a fact.

Your point is?

Brown, Jon Brow

16th May 2009, 18:29

They have taken away our national identity. We should leave the EU...

To end the drain on the country’s finances
To reintroduce the full authority of Westminster
To impose British policies on Agriculture and Fisheries
To capitalise on Britain’s individual national strengths
The ‘euro’ depends on ‘political integration’ so far not achieved‘
Protectionism’ is not free trade, it is inward-looking
Our legal system is not that of Napoleon: it has distinct merits
We must control OUR armed forces and how they are used

The EU was originally set up for trading purposes only.

Since joining the EU they have slowly but surely been eroding away the British way of life , our borders are no longer secure. We have to let every Tom ,Dick and Harry from member states in. The farming industry has been decimated, and reward is given for nonproduction. It has proved to be bad for the country economically, done nothing politically, and has given for one reason or another none of the benefits we joined to recieve.

How has it been proven that the EU is bad for the UK economically? I think you will find that there are millions of jobs in this country that wouldn't be here if the UK wasn't in the EU. Why do you think Japanese car manufacturers have factories over here? It's so they can avoid the import tariffs.

Also, the when the UK joined the EU its GDP/P was the second lowest. Now it is one of the highest.

Roamy

16th May 2009, 18:46

Dump the EU go back to being cool with all those great personalities.

Brown, Jon Brow

16th May 2009, 18:53

Dump the EU go back to being cool with all those great personalities.

Hey! We still have a personality.

You're just jealous because the EU is a bigger economy than America :p

BDunnell

16th May 2009, 20:35

One interesting point is that I have never heard anyone from any country other than the UK complaining about their 'national identity' being eroded by the EU. Either they have no sense of 'national identity', which is clearly rubbish, or the idea of this EU-related erosion is nonsensical.

Rollo

17th May 2009, 13:35

Anyone who votes for either of those parties is, in my opinion, an uninformed, xenophobic, probably paranoid and possibly racist moron who believes too much of what they read in the right-wing press. Their increasing support is, to me, a sign of the times in one sense - a sign that there are increasing numbers of people who should probably not be allowed to vote on grounds of stupidity.

Although I tend to agree with your vitriol I will say this. A vote towards them is a protest vote against our otherwise immaculate friends in Whitehall who wouldn't dare dream of wasting the taxpayers money on... cleaning out their moat.

The current system assumes (unless there's a significant swing away from both of the majors) that you either choose one or the other. Call it the lesser of two evils if you might, but you can not forget that if you choose the lesser of two evils, you've still chosen an evil.

Besides, in a truly democratic system, then the will of the people should be reflected in their government. Are you telling us that the Great British people are on the whole, uninformed, xenophobic, probably paranoid and possibly racist morons? In a democracy, shouldn't they have the right to choose ninformed, xenophobic, probably paranoid and possibly racist members to represent them?

Lousada

17th May 2009, 14:34

Are you telling us that the Great British people are on the whole, uninformed, xenophobic, probably paranoid and possibly racist morons? In a democracy, shouldn't they have the right to choose ninformed, xenophobic, probably paranoid and possibly racist members to represent them?

Doesn't your consitution says something that forbids racism, discrimination and hate-mongering? Well the European Human Rights Treaty does. So no, people do not have the right to choose racist or xenophobic members to represent them.

Rollo

17th May 2009, 21:29

a. Britain doesn't have a constitution

b. The European Convention on Human Rights whilst at Article 14 does contain a prohibition of discrimination, mentions nothing on being either uninformed, xenophobic or probably paranoid.

c. You have missed my point; I'll admit that it may have been subtle.
The law might prohibit certain things to actually be said and expressed, but it does not prohibit the people from voting for someone who might express those views.
This case has already been tried in the late 1950s against members of the then Communist Party of Britain, and their rights to vote for people were upheld under common law as exercising a chose in action.

EuroTroll

18th May 2009, 09:27

a. Britain doesn't have a constitution

I've often wondered what British politicians say instead of "This is unconstitutional!" - a popular phrase in most other countries.

"This is against the spirit of Magna Carta!" :?:

or...

"We're British, damn it, and that's not the way we do things!" :)

What say you, subjects of Her Majesty the Queen? :p :

Garry Walker

18th May 2009, 13:00

Dave B

18th May 2009, 13:09

Anyone who votes for either [UKIP or the BNP] is, in my opinion, an uninformed, xenophobic, probably paranoid and possibly racist moron who believes too much of what they read in the right-wing press. Their increasing support is, to me, a sign of the times in one sense - a sign that there are increasing numbers of people who should probably not be allowed to vote on grounds of stupidity.

:up:

Charlie Brooker's column today sums up my feelings far more eloquently than I could ever manage:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/18/charlie-brooker-bnp-racism

"For the BNP to claim to be more British than the other British parties is as nonsensical as your dad suddenly claiming to have invented the beard." :laugh:

Brown, Jon Brow

18th May 2009, 16:38

I`d vote BNP in a heartbeat if I was british.
They would get my vote with even more certainty if they promised to shoot Harriet Harman, who is the real racist and sexist .

Now, talking about stupid people voting, that is how labour has been in power for so long.

http://www.opaquelucidity.com/facepalm.jpg

BDunnell

18th May 2009, 17:16

I've often wondered what British politicians say instead of "This is unconstitutional!" - a popular phrase in most other countries.

"This is against the spirit of Magna Carta!" :?:

or...

"We're British, damn it, and that's not the way we do things!" :)

What say you, subjects of Her Majesty the Queen? :p :

The latter generally seems to be the favoured option!

As for one of the other comments - well, it's always nice when people display their ugly, violent racism openly, rather than it being required to force it out of them.

BDunnell

18th May 2009, 17:19

steve_spackman

18th May 2009, 21:54

Excellent. Alas, the many good points contained therein would go completely over the heads of the unimaginative, delusional fools who might ever be tempted to support such parties - not that they would ever have the mental capacity to form a considered opinion.

I wish to point out to you, that i am NOT a unimaginative, delusional fool and i do have the mental capacity to form a considered opinion. I am not (as you put it) a uninformed, xenophobic paranoid racist moron. You have no right to label me that way. You have no idea who i am and from the looks of it have no respect for anyone who does not see things your way.

steve_spackman

18th May 2009, 22:34

If you want YOUR country ruled and governed by Brussels, i suggest you move across the otherside of the English channel.

And to let you in on a lil secret..I do not support the BNP.

BDunnell

18th May 2009, 22:34

I wish to point out to you, that i am NOT a unimaginative, delusional fool and i do have the mental capacity to form a considered opinion. I am not (as you put it) a uninformed, xenophobic paranoid racist moron. You have no right to label me that way. You have no idea who i am and from the looks of it have no respect for anyone who does not see things your way.

You have offered nothing here to back up your opinions and argue against what the rest of us (bar one person) have said, so you really only have yourself to blame if you feel you're being misrepresented.

anthonyvop

18th May 2009, 23:00

Hey! We still have a personality.

You're just jealous because the EU is a bigger economy than America :p
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That is sooooooooo funny.....Oh wait.....You actually believe that?

Rollo

18th May 2009, 23:53

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That is sooooooooo funny.....Oh wait.....You actually believe that?

The GDP of the EU for 2008 as estimated by the IMF was $18.394 trillion as opposed to only $14.264 trillion for the USA. Technically the EU is a bigger economic entity, but it does comprise of perhaps 170 million more people and 27 constituent countries.

wedge

19th May 2009, 00:31

Anyone who votes for either of those parties is, in my opinion, an uninformed, xenophobic, probably paranoid and possibly racist moron who believes too much of what they read in the right-wing press. Their increasing support is, to me, a sign of the times in one sense - a sign that there are increasing numbers of people who should probably not be allowed to vote on grounds of stupidity.

I'd disagree a bit. BNP are doing a good of legitimising themselves and are playing the system and getting away with it, therefore they're doing a good job at playing on people's paranoia putting a spin on stories to people who don't know any better - not that I'm stupid enough to fall for it.

I`d vote BNP in a heartbeat if I was british.
They would get my vote with even more certainty if they promised to shoot Harriet Harman, who is the real racist and sexist .

Now, talking about stupid people voting, that is how labour has been in power for so long.

Our political system isn't perfect, there's always room for improvement, but its far better than some countries around the world.

steve_spackman

19th May 2009, 01:24

I'd disagree a bit. BNP are doing a good of legitimising themselves and are playing the system and getting away with it, therefore they're doing a good job at playing on people's paranoia putting a spin on stories to people who don't know any better - not that I'm stupid enough to fall for it.

All political parties play on peoples paranoia and put a spin on stories to people who don't know any better..After all thats what poitics is all about.

Labour promised the British people a referendum on the EU Constitution, but have yet to do it. Why? Because they know that it will not go through.

Why on earth would i want a EU Constitution. Do you?

So the EU Constitution basically means that nations within the EU have to GIVE UP their own laws of the land for this utter crap. This is a prime example of loosing ones national identity.

My grandfather DID NOT fight in WW2 to have this country run by a bunch of foreigners

Rudy Tamasz

19th May 2009, 07:25

We'd been under the Soviet Union for a long time. This current Union with the capital in Brussels looks a lot like it.

Dave B

19th May 2009, 08:20

My grandfather DID NOT fight in WW2 to have this country run by a bunch of foreigners
That could be the slogan of the BNP, or equally UKIP. It's a powerful and emotive message sure enough, but it shows a complete ignorance of reality. "Independence" parties love to play on peoples' fears with messages such as that; and papers like the Mail and Express reinforce the fear and ignorance with their bullcrap stories about straight cucumbers and abolishing the great British pint, not to mention distorted and unproven statistics about those millions of immigrants living here at our expense.

The BNP are being quite clever at positioning themselves as a legitimate alternative to the traditional parties; but fortunately the more publicity they get, the more they expose their utter unsuitability to be in charge of anything more than some crayons and those special blunt scissors used in primary schools.

My question for anybody seriously considering voting UKIP, BNP, Veritas, Respect or any other such organisation: imagine if they actually got some power - what do you think their actual policies are? What would they do about the ecomony? Unemployment? MPs expenses? Health? The environment? The banking crisis? Education? Defence? Transport?

None of these parties has the slightest clue how they'd actually go about governing the country, and with good reason. Hithertoo they've always known that there's more chance of satan skating to work and pointing out all the flying pigs than them ever gaining any credible share of the electorate. Letting this rabble into office would be a disaster for our country.

Rollo

19th May 2009, 10:21

Hithertoo they've always known that there's more chance of satan skating to work and pointing out all the flying pigs than them ever gaining any credible share of the electorate.

This is precisely the reason why I'd consider voting for ratbag parties on the ticket ahead of either the Tories or the Labour Party.

A vote towards them is a protest vote

The problem is that there isn't really much of an outlet for a disgruntled voter to let out their frustration. Do you vote for Numpty Party A or Numpty Party B? You can't really show displeasure with a direct vote for the other.

If on the ballot paper there was a "none of the above" box or a "I am not happy box" then the majors might actually have to consider either the candidates that they're putting forward or rethink their policies.

I might not like the BNP or the UKIP, but how else does one show scorn unless you vote for them? (independants and minors might also be in there; quite possibly the Lid Dems as well)

EuroTroll

19th May 2009, 10:42

We'd been under the Soviet Union for a long time. This current Union with the capital in Brussels looks a lot like it.

I this a serious statement or a joke?

Yeah, I know the argument. Prior to our joining, there were also people crying about "going from one Union to another".

Ridiculous, I've always thought.

Difference #1 - The Baltics was forcefully incorporated into the SU. The decision to join the EU was reached at a referendum, with 70% approval.

Differences #2 too ... - well, too many to list.

EuroTroll

19th May 2009, 10:45

I might not like the BNP or the UKIP, but how else does one show scorn unless you vote for them? (independants and minors might also be in there; quite possibly the Lid Dems as well)

May I suggest not voting at all? It's not compulsory in Britain, is it?

As for letting out frustration... how about going to the gym and letting it all out on a punchbag? :) Surely that's better than giving a vote to those people.

BDunnell

19th May 2009, 10:48

So the EU Constitution basically means that nations within the EU have to GIVE UP their own laws of the land for this utter crap. This is a prime example of loosing ones national identity.

You are still yet to offer any reasonable notion of what constitutes this vague notion of a 'national identity'. Now you seem to be pinning the blame for this being lost on the EU. Before, it was immigrants. You now also suggest that our 'national identity' somehow comes about as a result of the UK's laws. I am deeply confused as to what it is that you think is being lost.

My grandfather DID NOT fight in WW2 to have this country run by a bunch of foreigners

The fact of your deploying that weak, hackneyed argument illustrates why your views bear very little credence.

BDunnell

19th May 2009, 10:51

The problem is that there isn't really much of an outlet for a disgruntled voter to let out their frustration.

Don't vote. Or stand yourself. I don't understand this idea of people wanting to vote for someone weird in order to demonstrate their frustration at the other candidates. One can't expect any candidate other than oneself to represent exactly one's own views.

Cooper_S

19th May 2009, 11:08

Speaking with many Britons who are critical of the EU I always ask who they voted for in the last Local, General or European elections... and the majority of the time the answer is the same... I don't vote

That is not only stupid but also very dangerous...

Dave B

19th May 2009, 11:10

May I suggest not voting at all? It's not compulsory in Britain, is it?
This is quite true, but I've always subscribed to the notion that if you don't vote you forfeit your right to complain about whoever wins.

What amazes me though is that people will use local or European elections as a form of protest vote. I don't want to risk being saddled with a racist or incompetent councillor just to send a message to Gordon Brown. I don't want my bins going uncollected or my local schools being crap just to lodge my displeasure about expense claims.

I'm going to research my local candidates and vote who whoever I feel will best represent me, irrespective of what else may be going on in Westminster at the moment.

Cooper_S

19th May 2009, 11:35

BDunnell

19th May 2009, 12:02

Barking and Dagenham in East London elected 12 BNP candidates to the Local Council... some have been investigated for non payment of rates, and they on mass occupy the bottom of the list for attending council meetings yet each claim the maximum allowance... they are a joke but unfortunately for the residents of that borough the joke is on them.

The BNP will NOT be the knights in shining armour some would have us believe... In fact The only reason I can see how the BNP would solve the immigration problem (as they see it) is to so totally screw up the country no bugger will want to come here...

Quite right too.

And let's not forget that one of UKIP's MEPs has recently started a prison sentence for fraud, while another is under investigation for the same offence. The whiff of corruption and criminality that hangs around UKIP and the BNP is far stronger, in my view, than that afflicting any of the mainstream parties.

Mark

19th May 2009, 12:06

We're on the lead into the elections so all the crappy little parties get election broadcasts. Yesterday was the turn of the English Democrats (who?! :confused: ). Who's main aim is to get an English parliament to mirror those in Wales and Scotland. An aim I happen to agree with.

However they also couple it with anti-Europe sentiment, which I don't really.

BDunnell

19th May 2009, 12:06

This is quite true, but I've always subscribed to the notion that if you don't vote you forfeit your right to complain about whoever wins.

I don't agree with that, because that reasoning would have seen to it that, for example, none of us outside the USA had the right to criticise George W. Bush.

What amazes me though is that people will use local or European elections as a form of protest vote. I don't want to risk being saddled with a racist or incompetent councillor just to send a message to Gordon Brown. I don't want my bins going uncollected or my local schools being crap just to lodge my displeasure about expense claims.

Exactly right.

BDunnell

19th May 2009, 12:09

We're on the lead into the elections so all the crappy little parties get election broadcasts. Yesterday was the turn of the English Democrats (who?! :confused: ). Who's main aim is to get an English parliament to mirror those in Wales and Scotland. An aim I happen to agree with.

Why? I don't feel we in England lose out as a result in any way.

Mark

19th May 2009, 12:51

Why? I don't feel we in England lose out as a result in any way.

By not having a parliament? It's one of those impossible questions really. We don't really know unless we have one.

One problem is that it will almost certainly be Tory dominated!, so, erm, maybe it's not such a brilliant idea after all :p

Rudy Tamasz

19th May 2009, 13:33

I this a serious statement or a joke?

Yeah, I know the argument. Prior to our joining, there were also people crying about "going from one Union to another".

Ridiculous, I've always thought.

Difference #1 - The Baltics was forcefully incorporated into the SU. The decision to join the EU was reached at a referendum, with 70% approval.

Differences #2 too ... - well, too many to list.

Studiose, first let me emphasize that I am not an ouright enemy of integration. I think indeed that very few barriers should stand in the way of people, capital, labor and information moving from one country to another. as long as this is the case, I am for it. But this can be pretty well taken care of by means of bilateral agreements between equal countries.

I start having problems when this is being done through a certain controlling center that little by little grabs the power from independent states and ends up telling them what to do. This means that citizens lose control of their country and their civil and political rights. If you check the hard facts you will see that EU is governed by Eurocommission, an equivalent of Politburo, a bunch of people unelected by anybody and unaccountable by anybody. That's bad enough for me.

Now on to the people's willingness to join EU. I believe that people of Estonia freely made their choice to join EU. I respect that choice and perfectly understand how logical it was given the history of your relations with the Bear. At the same time I recall earlier referenda in France and Denmark that had had to be re-voted just because voters said 'No' (was it Maastricht Treaty or something?) and the Euroestablishment wanted a 'Yes'. Now there's a lot of external pressure on Irelan to give a green to the Treaty of Lisboa. I don't like the idea of certain political agenda being shoved down the voters' collective throats till they accept it. It doesn't go as far as political repressions as yet but the amount of the brainwashing propaganda in the media comes pretty close to what we had had in the Soviet Union. And it is going to get worse.

These are my argument against EU in a nutshell.

driveace

19th May 2009, 13:57

If the EU and the EURO is so good for all the country,s in it WHY are 5 country,s in such a mess and need somehow to devalue. THESE are Portugal ,Spain,Greece,Ireland and Italy
And the Question was about our voting BECAUSE of the MPs fiddles and greediness !

Brown, Jon Brow

19th May 2009, 17:49

All political parties play on peoples paranoia and put a spin on stories to people who don't know any better..After all thats what poitics is all about.

Labour promised the British people a referendum on the EU Constitution, but have yet to do it. Why? Because they know that it will not go through.

I'm not too keen on referendums. For something as complex as the EU constitution I don't think it's a good idea to give the public a vote on something that most of them know absolutely jack about. What is the point in electing a government if every question was put to a referendum?

So the EU Constitution basically means that nations within the EU have to GIVE UP their own laws of the land for this utter crap. This is a prime example of loosing ones national identity.

My grandfather DID NOT fight in WW2 to have this country run by a bunch of foreigners

And it's not like nationalism is a cause of war?

If there was an EU in the 1930/40's we wouldn't have had a world war! :rolleyes:

steve_spackman

19th May 2009, 17:53

I'm not too keen on referendums. For something as complex as the EU constitution I don't think it's a good idea to give the public a vote on something that most of them know absolutely jack about. What would be the point in electing a government if every question was put to a referendum?

Well then it would be nice for our great Leader to give everyone the ins and outs on what the EU constitution is all about. Will he do that? I doubt it.

BDunnell

19th May 2009, 23:18

Well then it would be nice for our great Leader to give everyone the ins and outs on what the EU constitution is all about. Will he do that? I doubt it.

Would everyone understand it? I doubt it.

As it happens, I think the EU needs urgent, far-reaching reforms, not least to root out the corruption that has been rife in some of its institutions, and to render its work more relevant to the citizens of its member countries. Not all of us who are enthusiasts of the concept of the EU believe it to be perfect. But it is far from the appalling monster it is perceived to be.

wedge

20th May 2009, 00:22

My grandfather DID NOT fight in WW2 to have this country run by a bunch of foreigners

So your grandfather fought Nazis who made Jews scapegoats and you're quite happy to sympathise with the BNP who are making Muslims/immigrants scapegoats?

*claps hands*

steve_spackman

20th May 2009, 00:25

So your grandfather fought Nazis who made Jews scapegoats and you're quite happy to sympathise with the BNP who are making Muslims/immigrants scapegoats?

*claps hands*

Where did i state that i sympathise with the BNP?

But im not allowed to express my views, not allowed to show that i am proud to be Britsh incase it offends people. Thats because i will be labeled racist..in my own country. Thanks to the PC brigade.

steve_spackman

20th May 2009, 00:57

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/jonathanwynnejones/blog/2009/04/17/how_does_britain_solve_its_identity_crisis

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23380095-details/EU%20stealing%20the%20crown%20of%20the%20great%20B ritish%20pint/article.do

http://www.ashleymote.co.uk/?p=1324

Brown, Jon Brow

20th May 2009, 12:04

Where did i state that i sympathise with the BNP?

But im not allowed to express my views, not allowed to show that i am proud to be Britsh incase it offends people. Thats because i will be labeled racist..in my own country. Thanks to the PC brigade.

Not thanks to the PC brigade. It's thanks to the BNP have a different view to 'Britishness' is to almost everyone else.

BDunnell

20th May 2009, 12:11

Where did i state that i sympathise with the BNP?

But im not allowed to express my views, not allowed to show that i am proud to be Britsh incase it offends people. Thats because i will be labeled racist..in my own country. Thanks to the PC brigade.

Yes you are allowed to express your views. You are doing so here. In return, opposing views are being expressed back to you. The idea that you can't voice an opinion because of 'the PC brigade' is, with respect, complete rubbish.

F1boat

20th May 2009, 14:22

Reading this discussion is enlightening from me, because I thought that we have such only in countries like mine - Bulgaria - which joined the Union very recently. I have to say that we have our own equivalent of BNP, the "Attack" party, very hard nationalists. We also have a corrupted socialist government and right parties, who are not to be trusted lol. I personally will most likely vote for the our Green party, as I think that the environment is becoming a very serious problem - we must protect our Planet and its other denizens :)
About the question about the identity, I steadies recently about this and I think that the EU subsidies the local cultures, national and ethnic, so I think that people are not right to fear that their way of life will be swallowed by the EU. I think that Greece are longtime members of the Union and they are still as cool as always ;) However, I perfectly understand people like Steve. I think that political correctness has gone way too far. It is wrong if you can't be proud with your country! So instead of branding such people with insults, it will be good if we, together, discover how we can be both Europeans and proud children of our country. Also, it is good if there is compromise between two extreme points of view. Antagonizing is counter-productive.

Garry Walker

20th May 2009, 15:41

:up:

Charlie Brooker's column today sums up my feelings far more eloquently than I could ever manage:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/18/charlie-brooker-bnp-racism

"For the BNP to claim to be more British than the other British parties is as nonsensical as your dad suddenly claiming to have invented the beard." :laugh:

Ahh I read the first few sentences of that article, but unfortunately I could not hold back puking after reading something that stinks so badly.

http://www.opaquelucidity.com/facepalm.jpg

When you move out of your parents basement and experience real life and stop living in a dream, maybe you will reconsider.

The latter generally seems to be the favoured option!

As for one of the other comments - well, it's always nice when people display their ugly, violent racism openly, rather than it being required to force it out of them.

Whilst I usually avoid wasting my time debating with lefties, because as the saying goes: never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience, I will waste my time this time.

Is it racist from a white british person not to want hordes of WHITE polish immigrants in his country? And the opposite, would it be racist of a WHITE polish person not to want loads of WHITE british immigrants in his country?
This represents my views. I fail to see anything racist there, but then again lefties use that word for everything.

My question for anybody seriously considering voting UKIP, BNP, Veritas, Respect or any other such organisation: imagine if they actually got some power - what do you think their actual policies are? What would they do about the ecomony? Unemployment? MPs expenses? Health? The environment? The banking crisis? Education? Defence? Transport?

None of these parties has the slightest clue how they'd actually go about governing the country, and with good reason. Hithertoo they've always known that there's more chance of satan skating to work and pointing out all the flying pigs than them ever gaining any credible share of the electorate. Letting this rabble into office would be a disaster for our country.

And labour has any idea what to do with the economy, besides bringing in more immigrants and saying (and having fools actually believe it) that immigration is great for the economy?
Labour has an idea what to do with health?
They have been in power for a long time and the only things they have managed to do is fcuk up UK.

If there was an EU in the 1930/40's we wouldn't have had a world war! :rolleyes:
Do humour me and say why?
What has your massive life experience taught you :D ?

Yes you are allowed to express your views. You are doing so here. In return, opposing views are being expressed back to you. The idea that you can't voice an opinion because of 'the PC brigade' is, with respect, complete rubbish.

The PC brigade will launch an attack at someone who dares to have a different view to their own at once (so much for tolerance!), I quite enjoy angering those people and making them their pants.

Dave B

20th May 2009, 16:04

Ahh I read the first few sentences of that article, but unfortunately I could not hold back puking after reading something that stinks so badly.
Fair enough, I put it out there for anybody to read but if you can't be bothered that's up to you.

When you move out of your parents basement and experience real life and stop living in a dream, maybe you will reconsider.

Personal attacks, Garry? Calm down dear, it's only politics. Don't make it personal.

Whilst I usually avoid wasting my time debating with lefties, because as the saying goes: never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience, I will waste my time this time.
Leftie? Idiot? Could be considered more insults. Careful now. Down with that sort of thing.

"Beat you with experience"? What does that mean? :confused:

Is it racist from a white british person not to want hordes of WHITE polish immigrants in his country? And the opposite, would it be racist of a WHITE polish person not to want loads of WHITE british immigrants in his country?

In a word, yes.

Race doesn't have to be black or white. Just because most Polish immigrants happen to be white doesn't mean it's any more or less racist to resent them exercising their legal right to work anywhere within the EU.

I notice another "British jobs for British workers" strike today - conveniently and hypocritically forgetting the thousands of British citizens who work quite legally all round Europe.

This represents my views. I fail to see anything racist there, but then again lefties use that word for everything.
Then in my considered opinion, coupled with your support for the BNP, your views are racist. That said, you're perfectly entitled to hold those views and while I disagree with them I respect them.

And labour has any idea what to do with the economy, besides bringing in more immigrants and saying (and having fools actually believe it) that immigration is great for the economy?
Labour has an idea what to do with health?
They have been in power for a long time and the only things they have managed to do is fcuk up UK.
Labour has made a hash of many things, of that there's little doubt. Healthcare has improved (ironically in some part due to the influx of skilled foreign workers) but I agree they've squandered an opportunity to make further improvements. Back when money was plentiful they failed to invest it wisely.

However, when you say "you'd vote BNP in a heartbeat", I'd be most interested to hear how you feel their policies would improve Britain, short of ridding us of all those pesky foreigners which apparently irk them so much.

The PC brigade will launch an attack at someone who dares to have a different view to their own at once (so much for tolerance!), I quite enjoy angering those people and making them their pants.
As BDunnel replied to another poster, it's nothing to do with "PC" (that term is misused so much it's laughable). If you can point out where you've been "attacked" I'm sure the moderators will deal with it appropriately.

So far as I can tell we're engaging in a largely civilised debate: I'm genuinely interested to learn what other policies the far right have - other than thinly-veiled racism - that would improve our country. The BNP are so vague on actual details that I can't understand how anybody could consider voting for them, so I'd be fascinated to know your reasoning.

BDunnell

20th May 2009, 16:06

Is it racist from a white british person not to want hordes of WHITE polish immigrants in his country? And the opposite, would it be racist of a WHITE polish person not to want loads of WHITE british immigrants in his country?
This represents my views. I fail to see anything racist there, but then again lefties use that word for everything.

If you don't like racist, how about paranoid, xenophobic, small-minded, intolerant, unpleasant, unnecessary and foolish?

Brown, Jon Brow

20th May 2009, 16:07

Ahh I read the first few sentences of that article, but unfortunately I could not hold back puking after reading something that stinks so badly.

Were you feeling sick because the words were too big for you to understand?

When you move out of your parents basement and experience real life and stop living in a dream, maybe you will reconsider.

I don't live in my parents basement. I spend most of my time in my University library or in girls beds.

Whilst I usually avoid wasting my time debating with lefties, because as the saying goes: never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience, I will waste my time this time.

Ben an idiot? Considered by most to be one of the most intelligent posters on the board.

Is it racist from a white british person not to want hordes of WHITE polish immigrants in his country? And the opposite, would it be racist of a WHITE polish person not to want loads of WHITE british immigrants in his country?
This represents my views. I fail to see anything racist there, but then again lefties use that word for everything.

Who has said anything about wanting hordes of Polish people coming to live here? Considering my ex-girlfriend was Polish and some of my best friends and work colleagues are Polish I don't have any problem with them.

I think you're try to claim that being anti-immigration BNP supporter isn't racist. But Nick Griffin has said on the Daily Politics show that immigrants are allowed as long as they are white.

Do humour me and say why?
What has your massive life experience taught you :D ?

In 1945, a family standing almost anywhere in Europe found themselves in a nation which was, or had recently been: (a) ruled by a brutal fascist dictator, (b) occupied by a foreign army or (c) both. As a direct result of these government failures, tens of millions of Europeans were dead and Europe's economy lay in ruins. Worse yet, the Second World War was not an historical event. If the parents were middle-aged it would have been their second experience of colossal death and destruction. Indeed, the Second World War was the fourth time in 130 years that France and Germany had been at the core of increasingly horrifying wars. In 1945 it was plain to all that something was desperately wrong with the way Europe governed itself.

So in answer to your question Garry, since European countries started to integrate their economies in the 1950's, we haven't had any wars between each other. You're not going to have a war with a country who's economy you benefit from. Pretty obvious, right?

BDunnell

20th May 2009, 16:08

I think that political correctness has gone way too far. It is wrong if you can't be proud with your country!

But people can still be proud of their country. What is stopping them? Pride in one's country doesn't equate to wanting to keep foreigners out in the name of preserving some still undefined notion of a 'national identity'.

donKey jote

20th May 2009, 19:57

I fail to see anything racist there, but then again lefties use that word for everything.

Then again you probably also fail to see anything racist in calling Africans -or black people in general- lazy and stupid :dozey:

Troll on Garryvop :laugh: :laugh:

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

F1boat

20th May 2009, 20:55

But people can still be proud of their country. What is stopping them? Pride in one's country doesn't equate to wanting to keep foreigners out in the name of preserving some still undefined notion of a 'national identity'.

In my opinion it is normal to want jobs for your people and not for foreigners. Hopefully, there will be place for all, but if there isn't, I can fully understand people who prefer their compatriots to have the job.

BDunnell

20th May 2009, 21:26

In my opinion it is normal to want jobs for your people and not for foreigners. Hopefully, there will be place for all, but if there isn't, I can fully understand people who prefer their compatriots to have the job.

I don't consider that normal at all. Surely you must believe in a true meritocracy and freedom of movement with regard to the employment market?

Cooper_S

21st May 2009, 00:01

Simple fact... the UK population is ageing... and the UK needs immigration to ensure there will be people working to support this ageing population... raising the retirement age can only elievate this problem to a small degree...

Why as an employer should I employ a less qualified Briton over a better qualified non Briton... I am not British, I have lived and worked here (London) for over 20 years and never claimed a penny in state handouts... I was schooled and qualified in another counter but had no choice but to emigrate for work... I had no intentions of staying as long as I have but i met my wife here (she is British) we bought a house, married and have two children... I have never relinquished my nationality.

I foreign as I am have contributed to UK plc more than quite a few British so why the hell should I make way for some ignoramious who happens to have been born here...

I also find it quite ironic that some bigots in the UK forget it was because their ancestors took over other countries with force and often ruled with discrimination is why so many peoples have a right to British passports...

Dave B

21st May 2009, 07:57

I also find it quite ironic that some bigots in the UK forget it was because their ancestors took over other countries with force and often ruled with discrimination is why so many peoples have a right to British passports...
True. I'm British by birth, and so are my family, but if you trace it back far enough one side comes from the Irish Republic and the other side possibly has French roots. If they hadn't settled here I wouldn't exist!

In my opinion it is normal to want jobs for your people and not for foreigners. Hopefully, there will be place for all, but if there isn't, I can fully understand people who prefer their compatriots to have the job.
I'd love to know how Garry's beloved Ferrari would have fared if foreign workers weren't allowed to ply their trade in Italty. :p

F1boat

21st May 2009, 10:58

I don't consider that normal at all. Surely you must believe in a true meritocracy and freedom of movement with regard to the employment market?

I believe that is OK to like your compatriots more that foreigners. This is not racism, but patriotism. So I can understand people who want to see other people from their nation getting the job in the country before foreigners.

BDunnell

21st May 2009, 12:08

donKey jote

21st May 2009, 12:18

I believe that is OK to like your compatriots more that foreigners. This is not racism, but patriotism. So I can understand people who want to see other people from their nation getting the job in the country before foreigners.

I can also understand people who want to see people from their family getting the job before others. This is neither racism nor patriotism, but nepotism.
Perfecty natural, but just as wrong in my view, so long as the only merit or argument involved is belonging to a particular group (family, friends, religion, race, village, region, country, nation, continent, planet,...).

F1boat

21st May 2009, 13:12

So you do not believe in a meritocracy when it comes to the job market?

I do believe that people have the right to prefer their compatriots to get the jobs before foreigners. What part of that is unclear to you? I believe that this is a point of view of many people and they have the right to express it, even if you or I disagree. Personally I would choose people for their qualities and not their race or country. But this is me. Someone else might prefer his compatriot and to me this is OK. And if I have to choose between two people who are evenly matched in my eyes, I will choose the compatriot instead of the foreigner.

Garry Walker

23rd May 2009, 12:31

Were you feeling sick because the words were too big for you to understand?Yes, that is completely right :D

I don't live in my parents basement. I spend most of my time in my University library or in girls beds.
Truly hilarious stuff!!! I am really laughing hard.

Ben an idiot? Considered by most to be one of the most intelligent posters on the board. Talking about words being too big for someone to understand, do you know what argumentum ad populum means? Look it up from some dictionary.

I think you're try to claim that being anti-immigration BNP supporter isn't racist. But Nick Griffin has said on the Daily Politics show that immigrants are allowed as long as they are white. I am fully against mass-scale immigration no matter what colour people are.

In 1945, a family standing almost anywhere in Europe found themselves in a nation which was, or had recently been: (a) ruled by a brutal fascist dictator, (b) occupied by a foreign army or (c) both. As a direct result of these government failures, tens of millions of Europeans were dead and Europe's economy lay in ruins. Worse yet, the Second World War was not an historical event. If the parents were middle-aged it would have been their second experience of colossal death and destruction. Indeed, the Second World War was the fourth time in 130 years that France and Germany had been at the core of increasingly horrifying wars. In 1945 it was plain to all that something was desperately wrong with the way Europe governed itself.

So in answer to your question Garry, since European countries started to integrate their economies in the 1950's, we haven't had any wars between each other. You're not going to have a war with a country who's economy you benefit from. Pretty obvious, right?
I dont know where you got this BS (some uni lecturer possibly?), but the main reasons why we havent had big wars since are completely different.

Then again you probably also fail to see anything racist in calling Africans lazy and stupid :dozey:

And the great successes of African countries sure prove me wrong :D

Simple fact... the UK population is ageing... and the UK needs immigration to ensure there will be people working to support this ageing population... raising the retirement age can only elievate this problem to a small degree...

Great solution. When all those immigrants reach old age, who will support them? More immigrants? More and more and more? That is like trying to cure headache by having yourself decapitated.

Instead of raising retirement age, people should be more encouraged to work and state shouldnt give handouts so easily to people who are useless to society and contribute nothing.

Dave B

23rd May 2009, 14:42

There are far too many aspects of your post to criticise, but I'll single out this gem (in response to being asked if Africans are lazy and stupid):

And the great successes of African countries sure prove me wrong :D

Are you seriously suggesting that just because, on the whole, African countries tend to have lower GDPs and more problems that western economies, it follows that in some way African immigrants are lazy or less worthy?

It couldn't possibly be the long and inglorious history of the climate leading to drought and famine, poor health, corrupt dictatorships and wars? Is it possible that the Africans who have chosen to make a better life elsewhere are motivated and hard-working, and not at all representative of those who never got the chance to emmigrate?

To re-phrase the question, do you seriously believe that African immigrants to the west are lazy and/or stupid?

donKey jote

23rd May 2009, 15:42

There are far too many aspects of your post to criticise, but I'll single out this gem (in response to being asked if Africans are lazy and stupid)
It wasn't a question. I was quoting (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=593329&postcount=29) a gem of his from a past thread. :laugh: :laugh:
:dozey:
:down:

Brown, Jon Brow

23rd May 2009, 16:46

Truly hilarious stuff!!! I am really laughing hard.

Jealousy gets you nowhere! :p

Talking about words being too big for someone to understand, do you know what argumentum ad populum means? Look it up from some dictionary.

Is that phrase not a little ironic? Considering we are arguing about the BNP! :confused:

I am fully against mass-scale immigration no matter what colour people are.

I'm not aware that mass-scale immigration has occurred or is a problem. I think in the last year or so many Polish people are moving back home.

I dont know where you got this BS (some uni lecturer possibly?), but the main reasons why we havent had big wars since are completely different.

You don't agree with it so it is bull? Pretty much all that 'bull' is factual.

Garry Walker

25th May 2009, 19:40

There are far too many aspects of your post to criticise, but I'll single out this gem (in response to being asked if Africans are lazy and stupid):

Are you seriously suggesting that just because, on the whole, African countries tend to have lower GDPs and more problems that western economies, it follows that in some way African immigrants are lazy or less worthy?

It couldn't possibly be the long and inglorious history of the climate leading to drought and famine, poor health, corrupt dictatorships and wars? Is it possible that the Africans who have chosen to make a better life elsewhere are motivated and hard-working, and not at all representative of those who never got the chance to emmigrate?

To re-phrase the question, do you seriously believe that African immigrants to the west are lazy and/or stupid?

Where did I mention african immigrants, I did not single them out.
But lazyness has been mentioned as a problem in africa, by african posters who experience it daily.

Many parts of world suffer from difficult climate and wars, but they have overcome them. In africa, they have mostly not. The problem lies with the people there.

Jealousy gets you nowhere! :p Please, teach me how you are so succesful with girls so that I would finally get the courage to talk to a girl without pissing my pants :( :( :(

I'm not aware that mass-scale immigration has occurred or is a problem. I think in the last year or so many Polish people are moving back home.
Is that so? Good news then.

You don't agree with it so it is bull? Pretty much all that 'bull' is factual. I do not agree with it, because it is very much wrong. But be sure to congratulate your uni lecturer who taught you this stuff for having a single digit IQ and send my condolences to his parents for not having the brains to use a condom.

BDunnell

25th May 2009, 20:30

I do not agree with it, because it is very much wrong. But be sure to congratulate your uni lecturer who taught you this stuff for having a single digit IQ and send my condolences to his parents for not having the brains to use a condom.

Let us read your detailed analysis of the situation, then, rather than 'it's just wrong'.

Brown, Jon Brow

2nd June 2009, 22:59

I keep getting in arguments with customers at work about the EU. As I work on a food counter that sells products in through metric measurements, people are always complaining because they don't understand metric.

'Hopefully we'll be out of the EU soon so we can go back to English measurements!'

I hope Britain's economic future isn't decided by people who are just too lazy to learn the metric system. :facepalm:

Cooper_S

3rd June 2009, 10:47

Almost all British people I speak with wrongly believe it is the EU (or formerly the EEC) the forced the UK to start switching to the metric system...

The fact the the process begun before the UK became members of the EEC or the fact the commonwealth countries had already started converting is forgotten.

I love also the whining that they prefer imperial measurements but press them on anything beyond simple feet and inches.. and they go blank

Most do not know how many yards are in a furlong or how many chains are in a mile... and with good reason.

How anyone can think a decimal based system is 'too hard' is beyond me.

Daniel

3rd June 2009, 11:01

Cooper_S

3rd June 2009, 12:18

It is not stupidity that stops them learning metric it's their stubbornness...

Metric is seen as foreign and by extension 'Evil'... the poor kids who are taught metric only at school are then greeted with imperial units outside the classroom... crazy but there is no willingness to change it.

I have two tape measures (one at home and one in work) they where bought in France and so are all metric... I love when people borrow it and are stumped when they can't find inches...

I also when my daughters where born if asked (as is the norm) what did they weight to which I would reply 2.98kg and 3.05kg respectively... when they asked what is that in lbs. I tell tell the how should I know and leave them to convert back if the wish...

LOL... I can be such a rebel at times

Dave B

3rd June 2009, 13:36

I like your style... but I bet you wouldn't walk into a pub and ask for 0.568 of a litre of beer :p

Cooper_S

3rd June 2009, 17:18

No and for two reasons... first I do not drink beer and while the UK is officially metric (hence my reluctance to pander to outdated units) their is no legal requirement to sell alcohol in metric units so while I could ask for the metric equivalent, the glass would still be in imperial so it is not worth the effort.

The baby thing was valid as all 'official' documentation records the babies weight and length in metric... it is only the people in the street who ask for it it imperial.

now naturally I am just being an awkward sod but I believe I am right to do so.

BDunnell

3rd June 2009, 17:44

I believe people like yourself should be given guns to shoot people who are too stupid to learn the metric system.

I would tend to agree. It's not hard. However, I still mix and match what I use depending on what I'm buying or what I'm referring to. Enshrining in law the necessity of using one system or the other is surely unnecessary.

Brown, Jon Brow

3rd June 2009, 22:36

I would tend to agree. It's not hard. However, I still mix and match what I use depending on what I'm buying or what I'm referring to. Enshrining in law the necessity of using one system or the other is surely unnecessary.

Most of the people who shop in my shop think this and they blame the EU for it. But it makes me mad that people want the UK out of the EU just because of a little bit of bureaucracy that doesn't really make that much difference to peoples lives. Unlike the 3,000,000+ jobs that would move across the English Channel if the UK left the EU. :mad:

So who's voting tomorrow?

BDunnell

3rd June 2009, 22:37

Most of the people who shop in my shop think this and they blame the EU for it. But it makes me mad that people want the UK out of the EU just because of a little bit of bureaucracy that doesn't really make that much difference to peoples lives.

Agreed. But let's not be under any illusions about the fact that the EU, just like any national parliament, passes many unnecessary laws and is not the most democratic or efficient of institutions.

A.F.F.

3rd June 2009, 22:40

Brown, Jon Brow

3rd June 2009, 22:42

Agreed. But let's not be under any illusions about the fact that the EU, just like any national parliament, passes many unnecessary laws and is not the most democratic or efficient of institutions.

I just don't see why people get so worked up about these 'unnecessary laws'. Yes, they can be a slight inconvenience at times, but does it really matter? The same people will probably go and blame it on 'political correctness' or something.

BDunnell

3rd June 2009, 22:51

I just don't see why people get so worked up about these 'unnecessary laws'. Yes, they can be a slight inconvenience at times, but does it really matter? The same people will probably go and blame it on 'political correctness' or something.

I agree that many people go way over the top in their reactions to laws made in Europe, and that the right-wing media often spreads blatant untruths about the EU, but none of this is any excuse for bad or unnecessary legislation, no matter who makes it.

Dave B

4th June 2009, 08:18

As BDunnell says, much of the blame for middle England wanting out of the EU comes from hysterical and innaccurate scare stories in the Mail and Express about immigration, straight bananas, abolishing the pound, and such nonsense.

For our overseas members, if you can't imagine the constant drip-feed of xenophobic crap those papers produce, take a look at these front pages from the excellent "Mail Watch (http://www.mailwatch.co.uk/category/immigration/)" website:

http://www.mailwatch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/e15286558.jpg

http://www.mailwatch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/m15275062.jpg(remarkable. My GP's "foreign" and he's brilliant).

http://www.mailwatch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/m15243597.jpg (http://www.mailwatch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/m15243597.jpg)

http://www.mailwatch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/m15224862.jpg
http://www.mailwatch.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/e15224858.jpg

Frightening, isn't it?

ShiftingGears

4th June 2009, 08:38

Garry Walker

4th June 2009, 09:55

Let us read your detailed analysis of the situation, then, rather than 'it's just wrong'.

Okay, entertain me. If someone like Hitler or Stalin came to power in a country like Germany or France, do you think "integrated economy" would stop them from attacking their neighbour countries? Yeah, good one.

You want detailed analysis? Sure, I will give it to you once mr.brow posts an analysis that is worth debating about.

Frightening, isn't it?

The only frightening thing is the eternal stupidity of lefties.

Mark

4th June 2009, 10:09

I would tend to agree. It's not hard. However, I still mix and match what I use depending on what I'm buying or what I'm referring to. Enshrining in law the necessity of using one system or the other is surely unnecessary.

The fact is that the EU has not insisted that we switch to metric, that's the UK government and has been going back to the 1970's. The EU has just asked that we choose a system and use it for everything. But typical British, we can't just have one system, we have to use both!

Metrication should have been done along with decimilisation in one big go (including speed limits and miles) back in the 1970's, there would be a big hoo-hah then everyone would forget about it and get on with it.

Cooper_S

4th June 2009, 10:51

The only frightening thing is the eternal stupidity of lefties.

The hypocrisy of that statement is quite mind boggling... :(

Daniel

4th June 2009, 11:17

The only frightening thing is the eternal stupidity of lefties.

bwahahahaha that's hilarious. Is that chip on your shoulder so big it obscures the truth? :laugh:

Dave B

4th June 2009, 11:34

Garry, while you're here, I've been meaning to ask you something. You seem to have an objection to the right to work anywhere in the EU meaning "foreign" workers come to the UK.

Do you have any such reservations about the amount of British and other workers at Ferrari in Italy?

Just so I know you're not a hypocrite, you understand... :erm:

Daniel

4th June 2009, 11:35

Camelopard

4th June 2009, 12:24

I wonder what his thoughts on Australians living in the UK are? :)

In a previous thread, he refused to say where he lives, I believe it was definitely not the UK, Ireland, USA, NZ, Australia and Canada so he himself is quite probably an immigrant somewhere, possibly Europe?

Camelopard

4th June 2009, 12:37

I wonder what his thoughts on Australians living in the UK are? :)

In a previous thread he refused to say where he lived, so quite possibly he is an immigrant himself.

Where do you think I live? America? UK? You are mistaken :D

It was the thread about the Australian PM apologizing, it got very heated and a lot of the posts were removed, but from memory he denied living in the USA, UK, the Republic of Ireland, Canada, NZ, Australia and any other English speaking country.

Cooper_S

4th June 2009, 13:58

well without meaning any disrespect to the lad, but judging from his some of his comments he lives, at least part of the time, in cloud cuckoo land...

Brown, Jon Brow

4th June 2009, 22:53

Okay, entertain me. If someone like Hitler or Stalin came to power in a country like Germany or France, do you think "integrated economy" would stop them from attacking their neighbour countries? Yeah, good one.

You want detailed analysis? Sure, I will give it to you once mr.brow posts an analysis that is worth debating about.

Interesting point, but I reckon that the EU today would be better able to cope with a rogue nation than Europe was able to in the late 1930's. The EU would stand against such a threat with one voice, instead of dithering around over which nations they would protect like Britain and France did before WW2.

Camelopard

5th June 2009, 04:18

well without meaning any disrespect to the lad, but judging from his some of his comments he lives, at least part of the time, in cloud cuckoo land...

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Brown, Jon Brow

8th June 2009, 00:14

So the BNP win a seat :(

Bye bye freedom :wave:

christophulus

8th June 2009, 10:35

And in the north west too. Where just 1,200 more votes for UKIP would have kept them out. A sad day.

Brown, Jon Brow

8th June 2009, 10:57

And in the north west too. Where just 1,200 more votes for UKIP would have kept them out. A sad day.

UKIP isn't much better than BNP to be honest. :(

Rollo

8th June 2009, 12:39

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8089102.stm
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45884000/jpg/_45884925_piratebaysupportersafp.jpg
Sweden's Pirate Party has won a seat in the European Parliament.

Of course they won a seat in the EU parliament, their campaign slogan was... Arrrrrrr!

Garry Walker

8th June 2009, 13:27

bwahahahaha that's hilarious. Is that chip on your shoulder so big it obscures the truth? :laugh:

Has some big and bad woman been sitting next to you on the airplane again, scaring you and you have been too scared to say anything, again?

Garry, while you're here, I've been meaning to ask you something. You seem to have an objection to the right to work anywhere in the EU meaning "foreign" workers come to the UK.

Do you have any such reservations about the amount of British and other workers at Ferrari in Italy?

Just so I know you're not a hypocrite, you understand... :erm:

Have you followed anything I have said? Of course I am against a large number of brits working in whatever countries. Why wouldnt I be?

In a previous thread he refused to say where he lived, so quite possibly he is an immigrant himself.

Oh yes, you got me there. I am really a somali immigrant in UK and I arrived here by a boat :rotflmao:

It was the thread about the Australian PM apologizing, it got very heated and a lot of the posts were removed, but from memory he denied living in the USA, UK, the Republic of Ireland, Canada, NZ, Australia and any other English speaking country.
That is correct.
I have to say it is nice that I have someone who pays so much attention to my posts, like my own fanclub :D

Interesting point, but I reckon that the EU today would be better able to cope with a rogue nation than Europe was able to in the late 1930's. The EU would stand against such a threat with one voice, instead of dithering around over which nations they would protect like Britain and France did before WW2.

The current europe is too weak to do anything about a rogue nation, even weaker than in 30s when you had such "tough" guys as chamberlain and Daladier as prime ministers. The problem is that to deal with rogue nations, diplomacy and appeasement do not work. The current europe unfortunately is only capable of that.

well without meaning any disrespect to the lad, but judging from his some of his comments he lives, at least part of the time, in cloud cuckoo land...
:rotflmao: Who are you?

Cooper_S

8th June 2009, 18:37

Who are you?

Forgive me again for saying so, but as you have asked I feel duty bound to reply...

Considering the comments you have made in this and other threads, I Sir am someone intellectually superior to you and someone with whom coherent and reasoned dialogue with is beyond your capabilities...

that is who I am... :)

BDunnell

8th June 2009, 22:17

What a triumph for the ignorant and reactionary of the UK and elsewhere in Europe. That's all that can be said — or, rather, all that can be said in a civil manner.

Rollo

9th June 2009, 01:15

The current europe is too weak to do anything about a rogue nation, even weaker than in 30s when you had such "tough" guys as chamberlain and Daladier as prime ministers. The problem is that to deal with rogue nations, diplomacy and appeasement do not work. The current europe unfortunately is only capable of that.

When you consider that in 1848 Europe went through a wave of revolutions, in 1870 there was the Franco-Prussian War, the First World War, then a rematch with the Second World War, I'd say that "appeasement" has worked remarkably well.

There's not been a full-scale, multi-national, treaty driven war for almost 70 years. That in the light of several million people dying is more than acceptable.
An ineffectual Europe that's too chaotic to fight itself is far more desirable than an organised Europe that can.