Indy's Left Field

[TURN3]

What is the deal with Vision, AGR, & HVM? All seem to be in left field.

Vision was looking like a strong 2nd tier team last year at the aero tracks and now they're back to being a leader of back of packs team with Carpenter and especially RHR.

AGR has been steadily regressing with the departure of drivers with talent but, looking at practice times in race trim they are looking pretty poor even for their new lower standards. To my knowledge, they haven't lost any engineering talent have they? Seems to me they just aren't getting enough feedback to keep up with TCGR & Penske, while KV and NHL have passed them by and Panther is right there with them. They were way off pace in pre-season but at Kansas I thought much improved. Now at Indy, they struggled a bit to get into the once given top 11 and they are having a really hard time in race trim. TK even did the every May standard run in Danica's car yesterday since she is worthless with input.

HVM I think showed the most promise last year from all the Champ Car converts. They're nowhere close on aero tracks now.

What's the deal? Engineering? Budget? Drivers? Combo of all of the above?

[jwhite9185]

Didnt RHR finish second at St Pete? And what team is leading the drivers championship again?

[TURN3]

Didnt RHR finish second at St Pete? And what team is leading the drivers championship again?

Maybe I didn't make it clear I'm talking about the aero track's where car development is only factor. If you're paying attention I think that is implied. RHR finished 2nd at St. Pete but different track type than Kansas and Indy where they are way off. AGR (TK) is leading points but hasn't been up to speed or competitively fast as he typically is and team used to be. Again, the point is look at their struggles on the speed track. They as a team finished well at LB but they do not have any speed, not like they used to at any rate. Look at TCGR & Penske, top of time sheets (all 4 cars) EVERY session. Same goes for Rahal so far but AGR has regressed to an average 2nd tier team.

[NickFalzone]

Who spent $$ in the offseason on wind tunnels, aero, etc. That's what it comes down to. I could see AGR sitting on their hands this offseason, same with Vision. I feel bad for RHR, you'd think at least Vision would have their Indy setup fairly decent. Then again, Foyt IV had an awful time with them at last year's Indy, so not a surprise.

[beachbum]

What is the deal with Vision, AGR, & HVM? All seem to be in left field.

Vision was looking like a strong 2nd tier team last year at the aero tracks and now they're back to being a leader of back of packs team with Carpenter and especially RHR.

AGR has been steadily regressing with the departure of drivers with talent but, looking at practice times in race trim they are looking pretty poor even for their new lower standards. To my knowledge, they haven't lost any engineering talent have they? Seems to me they just aren't getting enough feedback to keep up with TCGR & Penske, while KV and NHL have passed them by and Panther is right there with them. They were way off pace in pre-season but at Kansas I thought much improved. Now at Indy, they struggled a bit to get into the once given top 11 and they are having a really hard time in race trim. TK even did the every May standard run in Danica's car yesterday since she is worthless with input.

HVM I think showed the most promise last year from all the Champ Car converts. They're nowhere close on aero tracks now.

What's the deal? Engineering? Budget? Drivers? Combo of all of the above?Kannan's race engineer left, but the problems at AGR may be more the lack of drivers able to set up a car than a lack of engineering. It looks like they stood still while others improved. But practice times may not mean much because you don't know who is running with full fuel or light, new or old tires, and which speeds were with a tow.

Danica today has a best of 219.7 (as of 2:30 PM) and that was with a big tow (behind Tony), and yesterday's 219.4 was with a tow (I was watching at work). When Tony took her car out just after she came in, he ran 220.3 by himself, so the driver does make a difference. She was running 216-217 without anyone around her (same as today). He claimed they were just trying different setups and he wanted to how the one in her car worked. That is politically correct way to say they wanted to know if it was the car or the driver.

As for the "converts", NHL and KV seem to be doing just fine on the "aero" tracks. Who was quickest on Thursday? Moraes, and he is in the top 5 today.

[SportscarBruce]

AGR has been steadily regressing with the departure of drivers with talent but, looking at practice times in race trim they are looking pretty poor even for their new lower standards. To my knowledge, they haven't lost any engineering talent have they? Seems to me they just aren't getting enough feedback to keep up with TCGR & Penske, while KV and NHL have passed them by and Panther is right there with them. They were way off pace in pre-season but at Kansas I thought much improved. Now at Indy, they struggled a bit to get into the once given top 11 and they are having a really hard time in race trim. TK even did the every May standard run in Danica's car yesterday since she is worthless with input.

AGR's issue isn't drivers, it's lacking what the red cars have back at the shop; a NASCAR program. To be specific, crossover in personnel and facilities from a NASCAR founded aero program. Michael Andretti said as much in a interview for a west coast newspaper.

[beachbum]

AGR's issue isn't drivers, it's lacking what the red cars have back at the shop; a NASCAR program. To be specific, crossover in personnel and facilities from a NASCAR founded aero program. Michael Andretti said as much in a interview for a west coast newspaper.Maybe, but that doesn't explain why NHL and KV are quicker, or why the cars are fast for qualifying and often mid pack in a race. Penske and Gannassi are 2 cars teams (except for Power at Indy), and AGR trying to run 4 competitively may be stretching resources a bit thin, especially with rotating sponsors on Marco's car. Since they lost the direct Honda support a few years ago, they have been slowly going the wrong way.

I think one other factor may be driver preferences. Just like N-car, it seems the fast cars are running looser setups than a few years ago. Franchitti mentioned it, and even Danica said her car in qualifying was the loosest car she ever tried to qualify. But many drivers don't fell comfortable racing with that. Both Danica or Marco have stated they like the rear to be very stable, but that just may not be fast enough in today's scene. At many of the races, they get up front by great strategy calls, not pure speed.

AGR has good drivers, but realistically, only Tony is a regular threat to win. The drivers at Penske, Gannassi, even NHL are proven front runners and repeat winners. Take a well-oiled race team, with solid funding, and race winning drivers, and most of the time you will be ahead of the team stretching itself a bit thinner, with some noted conflicts in the team and drivers that are good, but not contenders at every race. At the rate they are going, the IRL will soon be the big 4, Penske, Gannassi, NHL, and KV with AGR down about 1/2 a rung at the next level.

[Chamoo]

AGR's issue isn't drivers, it's lacking what the red cars have back at the shop; a NASCAR program. To be specific, crossover in personnel and facilities from a NASCAR founded aero program. Michael Andretti said as much in a interview for a west coast newspaper.

I can't believe that having a Nascab program does anything for Target and Penske. If this were the case, AGR never would had competed with them, and NHL and KVRT and Panther wouldn't be close to them.

I think if MA#2 said that, he is looking for excuses.

[TURN3]

Yeah that doesn't make sense for Mikey to say. Chip's NASCAR program couldn't even stand on it's own, had to merge. Those cars and programs are completely different from the standpoint of aerodynamics and mechanical grip. I have a hard time thinking there's that much crossover work being done in those shops outside of maybe a department for fabrication of parts/pieces.

As far as AGR goes, the more I think about it, the more I think it comes back to the drivers and driver feedback. TK is a proven champion and race winner and beyond that, none of the other 3 have any kind of racing pedigree that would get them rides with a top team outside of the need for today's economics. Marco won Indy lights championship but really, what was his competition like back then? Heck, Ed Carpenter won Indy Lights. I just think when you look at those 3, they are not good enough to provide the feedback or to get the most out of what they have. I've been thinking more about how when Herta left, he was their main developement guy along w/ Dario. Then Dario left and AGR has been downhill ever since. Wheldon wasn't at a point in his career where he probably had much in terms of positive input during his days there but, he can hang onto a fast race car. The 3 they have now are at the mercy of TK's ability to have 4 engineers get them something close (i.e. Why is TK in Danica and Marco's cars every year?).

HVM is more of a mystery. I understand them not making the type of gains NHL or KV has in the offseason but you'd think they're at least where they left off last year. In their case, much like AGR, it isn't about not gaining, it's about the fact they're losing! You have to at least be able to maintain what you did last year you'd think.

[garyshell]

Yeah that doesn't make sense for Mikey to say.

Sure it does. It is just more of Mikey the whiner. Just like when he was driving, his problems were always caused by someone else. It's no different now. His problem is caused by someone else who has a NASCAB program. Suck it up Mikey, your problems then and now are of your own making.

Gary

[Chamoo]

HVM was struggling for money this year. They had been rumored multiple times to not be able to make it through the season. Their lack of funds was proved when they took Nelson Philippe onboard for Indy, and put him in Viso's T-car.

That will most likely give them a bit of a cash infusion they can spread over the season. On top of that, they have gotten some good sponsorship from Herbalife on E.J's car that will provide them with some much needed capital to maintain and improve the race team. Herbalife sponsorship is worth a fair bit of money.

[TURN3]

Sure it does. It is just more of Mikey the whiner. Just like when he was driving, his problems were always caused by someone else. It's no different now. His problem is caused by someone else who has a NASCAB program. Suck it up Mikey, your problems then and now are of your own making.

Gary

Good point.

[TURN3]

HVM was struggling for money this year. They had been rumored multiple times to not be able to make it through the season. Their lack of funds was proved when they took Nelson Philippe onboard for Indy, and put him in Viso's T-car.

That will most likely give them a bit of a cash infusion they can spread over the season. On top of that, they have gotten some good sponsorship from Herbalife on E.J's car that will provide them with some much needed capital to maintain and improve the race team. Herbalife sponsorship is worth a fair bit of money.

I know what you're saying and I agree HVM is struggling from a budget point. Really glad to see Herbalife step up (I'm a user and their product is fantastic). I still think that with the lack of changes, they should at least have the same speed as last year using the same exact set-ups.

[methanolHuffer]

Good point.


I don't think Roger or Chip or any of the real owners make such silly remarks. If there is a complaint to be made (in front of the media) it's better to not let Michael say what is on his mind.

When I heard that Michael would be a team owner years ago, I thought it would be a farce. Truth is he's only part owner of a team that he really doesn't make major decisions for. And for good reason.

He's probably good as a coach, but as a multi-million dollar business manager? He has no idea.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If TK is going out and evaluating what is going on in Danica and Marco's cars, that says VOLUMES about the lack of set up information they are getting to the engineers from Danica and Marco. Sorry people who may be fans of those two, but they shouldn't want TK taking their cars and RUNNING faster than they did in them making setup calls. Either they figure it out, or they are gone....

Oh wait, Danica brings in sponsors regardless of her results, she has to stay...and nepotism keeps Marco in his ride. Right...and this is all due to NOT having a NASCAR affiliation? Mikey says some dumb things when stressed, and THIS is REALLY stupid.

There is almost ZERO crossover between NASCAR and the IRL except in maybe if you could borrow and engineer or two, but why would any good NASCAR team be giving up their engineering crew to go help the IRL cousins out when the drivers are clueless on how to evaluate what has to be done to the car. This team misses Dario Franchitti and that much is painfully obvious. TK is out on an island here.....

As for other teams, I will heistate to comment, but there is enough made of what is going on around AGR and their issues to tell me that the problems here are not resources, it is the mismangement of them and the lack of information coming back from the cockpit. When the senior driver is driving everyone's car, that tells EVERYONE that people are lost in the wilderness....

[bravefish]

The grid totally reflects the situation. Best teams combined with the best drivers at the front. Nothing really new about that in motorsport, (except for Formula 1 this year)... then it slowly drops away to the scrap heap where spiders like Milka Duno lurk.. TK is giving AGR credibility this year with solid finishes, but he isnt really looking like he'll win many and might have to bank on clean racing with lots of top 5's - Danica will probably have a stint on a good set of tyres during the race where she laps at the leaders pace, then she'll stack it or have a mishap somewhere and come out with her usual 'we were as fast as the front guys and should have won that one' speel. Marco is horrible this year and Mutoh ??? Is that some sort of keep Mr Honda happy deal ?

Kim Green should cut his ties with that monkey lot and go it alone - bring back the Kool cars