Formula X

[Koz]

What is stopping teams from starting a new formula?

What are the guidelines for FIA having total dictatorship over all motorsport?

AFAIK, motorsport clubs can hire venues for club racing, etc, even if the club is not affiliated with the country's motorsports governing body as long as the safety requirements are met.
How would it apply here?

Chances are that Mister Max will back off and allow the teams to do as they wish. But what if.

[F1boat]

If this happens - CART and IRL all over again...

[Tazio]

What is stopping teams from starting a new formula?

I would say commercial interests are the only thing!
I would love to see it happen. However it is financially risky.
And without at least a full year of planning, and negotiating the teams would have to be willing to risk a big financial hit.
Such plans carried out while still competing in F1, I'm thinking would be construed as collusion,
and things would get very ugly all the way around!

I'm game!
But I don't have anything to lose! :)

[F1boat]

Maybe they will start the new series, if it comes to that, in 2011, while trying Le Mans in 2010 ;)

[K-Pu]

If this happens, I think both series (the new and the former) would suffer.

One because it´s new, the other because has lost something.

[V12]

Was discussed the other week here :)

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132993

In a nutshell, breaking away from Bernie/FOM would be relatively straightforward, but circuits and whathaveyou need FIA accreditation, and while in theory a body could control its own circuits, teams, drivers, etc. it would be a lot of effort and get VERY political.

[UltimateDanGTR]

hay Koz-You nicked my name! :D I agree with what V12 said, even I am thinking it would be hard to form a breakaway series.

[truefan72]

I know it would be hard and inuitially both sides wiill suffer, But eventually, we good racing and steady rules the new series will take hold and either the FIA F1 will cease to exist or reunifcation talk will come by with the FIA willing to appease to many of the teams' demands.

I don't think this is a short term solution. If teams need to take off 2010 to sort it out and it takes about another 2 years after that to be a viable series after the 2011 maiden year, then so be it. Change like this doesn't happen over night and perhaps such a radical move is best for creating a premiere class of open wheel racing in which all sides reap the rewards.

i would understand and would be fine sitting through an F1 less year to ensure a better future.

[V12]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love nothing more than to have the FIA stripped of power, but having seen what a "split" did to the American single seater racing scene I'd be a bit wary.

[truefan72]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love nothing more than to have the FIA stripped of power, but having seen what a "split" did to the American single seater racing scene I'd be a bit wary.


First off nice sig

ok, the issue in the USA with the open Cart/IRL split is a bit different. Open wheel racing was already in decline at that point and NASCAR was seriously on the rise. The big 4 sports still dominated the sports landscape as well.

Furthermore, at the time of the split, many of the legendary drivers were bowing out of the sport and in CART's case were replaced by a field compromised of about 90% foreign drivers to whom Americans could not relate too. Meanwhile Indycar pretty much based its entire season around the indy 500 which was its 3rd race of the season and predictably lost any kind of public appeal or traction post Indy. To add to that they went about scheduling a predominantly oval racing series and failed miserably in their marketing efforts.

TV contracts pre split were on ESPN and post split were a jumble between 4 different outlets with no real promotion.

The entire situation was a fiasco to start of with and the US market was already strained to endear itself to indyCart and completely unable to sustain two diminished series.

The situation with F1 is entirely different.
The global appeal, the drivers, the cars and the race circuits make it more than a viable option for FOTA. I liken it to Football (soccer) as a better comparison than US open wheel racing. What would happen if all the top teams in Europe decided to breakaway and form their own league?

[CNR]

Bernie has registered the name GP1
could we see gp1

[UltimateDanGTR]

FORMULA 1 NEXT YEAR:

Brawn
Mclaren
Williams
Force India
BMW
Lola
USF1
Prodrive
Litespeed
Supernova?
iSport?
ART?
Penske?

[Koz]

Bernie has registered the name GP1
could we see gp1

When did this happen? Link?

[UltimateDanGTR]

Bernie has registered the name GP1
could we see gp1


Bernie? Hang on, GP2 currently, GP3 next year from himself, GP1? You know if this is real, a breakaway could indeed happen! Hoorah, just what we need, F1 and GP1-two rival series both run by people losing the plot! :P this will make things very intresting,

F1 GP1
F2 GP2
F3 GP3

rival ladders, rival series? surely not?

[CNR]

remember this

making a blunder about the name of the sport that he has run for over 30 years seems too hard to believe.
Could Bernie really have made a mistake over the name of F1 or had he maybe been misquoted Sylt thought for a fleeting moment. Then he remembered that Bernie's private company Formula One Promotions and Administration has a trademark for the word GP1 as well as logos for GP2 Series and GP3.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=35820

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GP2_Series


while Ecclestone also has the rights to the name GP1


http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns15388.html
Ecclestone Applies For GP1 trademark

Formula One Promotions and Administration has applied for the pan-European trademark rights to the name GP1 covering 16 categories including organising and staging sports events, broadcasting, sportswear and timing equipment. This is a predictable move and no doubt part of the plan for Ecclestone to keep control of the business that he has built up around Formula 1.
FOPA is believed to be a company that was privately owned by Ecclestone and which sold its businesses to Formula One Management some years ago. Thus it seems that Ecclestone is intending to try to go it alone with a new series outside the control of the banks

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=35820

[wedge]

Even if they did it would never work. It would be like letting the lunatics running the asylum. The teams couldn't agree on the double diffuser issue and went crying to the FIA.

[Koz]

Bernie? Hang on, GP2 currently, GP3 next year from himself, GP1? You know if this is real, a breakaway could indeed happen! Hoorah, just what we need, F1 and GP1-two rival series both run by people losing the plot! :P this will make things very intresting,

F1 GP1
F2 GP2
F3 GP3

rival ladders, rival series? surely not?

Man if that is the case Bernie has gone way pasy losing the plot. He just shot himself in his....

I think it's all an misunderstanding. He has more to lose in this than Mister Max. And he will lose it all, if there is a breakway.

He will lose even more if he breaks away from himself. Lose-lose, either way.

[Andrewmcm]

If this happens - CART and IRL all over again...

Indeed. Lessons have not been learned. You can't have two competing top-line series, and teams can't run a series....

[veeten]

FOPA - Faux Pas :p :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faux_pas

Oh, Bernie... :laugh:

[emporer_k]

If this happens - CART and IRL all over again...

Wise men learn from their mistakes, but wiser men learn from other peoples mistakes. Taking a look at those supposed to be running this sport does not fill me with confidence.

[Koz]

Wise men learn from their mistakes, but wiser men learn from other peoples mistakes. Taking a look at those supposed to be running this sport does not fill me with confidence.

You can't compare that.

CART failed because of americans - the lack thereof. Wasn't everything also based around one single event too?
It was always doomed.

[Mugsey]

You can't compare that.

CART failed because of americans - the lack thereof. Wasn't everything also based around one single event too?
It was always doomed.

I would disagree; remember that CART was fabulously successful for decades after they split from USAC way back when. Successful enough, in fact to attract a reigning World Champion...

Many people seem to forget what really caused the initial split between CART and the IRL: Nothing more than Tony "I wish I was Bernie" George.

George REALLY wanted to be the Ecclestone of American open wheel racing, but CART was going great guns, didn't need or want his "leadership" and basically told him to get bent and go run his racetrack. So he went out and started his own series (with the help of a few others like A.J. Foyt, who thought American open wheel racing should only be contested on oval tracks).

Knowing no-one was going to be interested in his upstart, circles only series, he hijacked the Indy 500 by declaring that if you didn't run all the races in HIS series, you couldn't run Indy. That meant if CART didn't come and play his way, they would be excluded from the biggest race on their caladar.

Of course racing runs on sponsorship and the sponsors wanted to be at Indy, so many teams were forced into IRL by sponsor pressure. The departure of sponsorship dollars really weakened CART and eventually it became a second-rate series. Of course IRL was second-rate in it's concept, so there wasn't any really top shelf open wheel series left in America.

Open wheel racing in America hasn't failed due to a lack of fans or because there aren't enough fans to support two series. It's failed because open wheel racing in America has become mind-numbingly tedious, leaving the fans with nothing worth supporting. All thanks, almost entirely, to Tony George and his desire to own open wheel racing in America.

I don't mean to turn this thread into a history of Indy racing, but I think it does go to show that when the best interest of a competitve race series comes second to the interest of the individual running it (or wanting to), nothing good will come of it. We seem to be on the verge of an ego war between Bernie and Max in which F-1 is a pawn. FOTA seems to have come along at just the right time, let's hope they can stick together long enough to see this through. Throwing their hat in with Bernie will slove nothing, only carry on as now under a different name. Bernie doesn't have anyone's interest in mind other than his own...

...But we knew that already...

[call_me_andrew]

If this happens - CART and IRL all over again...

I wouldn't mind that happening because it would result in both Max and Bernie eating humble pie.

EDIT: Worst case scenario: NASCAR somehow purchases the FIA.

[truefan72]

I would disagree; remember that CART was fabulously successful for decades after they split from USAC way back when. Successful enough, in fact to attract a reigning World Champion...

Many people seem to forget what really caused the initial split between CART and the IRL: Nothing more than Tony "I wish I was Bernie" George.

George REALLY wanted to be the Ecclestone of American open wheel racing, but CART was going great guns, didn't need or want his "leadership" and basically told him to get bent and go run his racetrack. So he went out and started his own series (with the help of a few others like A.J. Foyt, who thought American open wheel racing should only be contested on oval tracks).

Knowing no-one was going to be interested in his upstart, circles only series, he hijacked the Indy 500 by declaring that if you didn't run all the races in HIS series, you couldn't run Indy. That meant if CART didn't come and play his way, they would be excluded from the biggest race on their caladar.

Of course racing runs on sponsorship and the sponsors wanted to be at Indy, so many teams were forced into IRL by sponsor pressure. The departure of sponsorship dollars really weakened CART and eventually it became a second-rate series. Of course IRL was second-rate in it's concept, so there wasn't any really top shelf open wheel series left in America.

Open wheel racing in America hasn't failed due to a lack of fans or because there aren't enough fans to support two series. It's failed because open wheel racing in America has become mind-numbingly tedious, leaving the fans with nothing worth supporting. All thanks, almost entirely, to Tony George and his desire to own open wheel racing in America.

I don't mean to turn this thread into a history of Indy racing, but I think it does go to show that when the best interest of a competitve race series comes second to the interest of the individual running it (or wanting to), nothing good will come of it. We seem to be on the verge of an ego war between Bernie and Max in which F-1 is a pawn. FOTA seems to have come along at just the right time, let's hope they can stick together long enough to see this through. Throwing their hat in with Bernie will slove nothing, only carry on as now under a different name. Bernie doesn't have anyone's interest in mind other than his own...

...But we knew that already...

excellent post :up:

[F1boat]

I wouldn't mind that happening because it would result in both Max and Bernie eating humble pie.

EDIT: Worst case scenario: NASCAR somehow purchases the FIA.

I don't know about this, but it will be very funny if on ten years F1 and "Formula X" negotiate to unify, while DTM rules Europe...

[Hondo]

I wouldn't mind that happening because it would result in both Max and Bernie eating humble pie.

EDIT: Worst case scenario: NASCAR somehow purchases the FIA.

Mugsy laid it all out quite well with the exception of A. J. "An American Series for American drivers" Foyt winning the thing with a Swedish driver. Hypocrite.

Max and Bernie will eat nothing. They hold the rights to use the name "Formula 1" and "World Championship" and that is what the TV networks and merchandisers have bought into. There is more than enough time to have enough customer engines and chassis ready by 2010. The grid will be full regardless of who quits. Like Tony George, Max and Bernie will be marketing a vastly inferior product as Formula 1 Grand Prix World Championship. While older fans drift away in disgust, new fans will take their place and for those new fans, what they see will be Formula 1 racing. Within a couple seasons the fans, just like the IRL crowd, will believe they are watching the real deal...Championship racing...the Pinnacle of Motorsport.

Bernie and Max won't lose as long as they own the name.

[jens]

In recent days got thinking about it - and I'll ask you. Which series would you watch? :D

A1'10: 3 cars per team
Ferrari: FM / KR / FA
Toyota: JT / TG / KK
McLaren: LH / HK / NR
BMW-Sauber: RK / NH / CK
Red Bull: SV / SBu / BH(artley)
Renault: RG / LdG / MW

F1 2010 (all teams powered by Cosworth)
BrawnGP: BUT / BAR
Williams: HUL / DAV
Force India: SUT / LIU
ProDrive: DLR / PAF
Lola: SAT / SEN
Dallara-ART: PTO / NAK
USGPE: ALL / PAT
Litespeed: MAL / FIS
Penske: DIX / SPE
iSport: MOT / PIQ

[AndyL]

In recent days got thinking about it - and I'll ask you. Which series would you watch? :D

A1'10: 3 cars per team
Ferrari: FM / KR / FA
Toyota: JT / TG / KK
McLaren: LH / HK / NR
BMW-Sauber: RK / NH / CK
Red Bull: SV / SBu / BH(artley)
Renault: RG / LdG / MW

If you just had Massa, Raikkonen, Alonso and Hamilton racing Nova SRi's round my local supermarket car park I would probably watch that! If there is a split, I think where the top drivers go will be the key to success.


F1 2010 (all teams powered by Cosworth)
BrawnGP: BUT / BAR
Williams: HUL / DAV
Force India: SUT / LIU
ProDrive: DLR / PAF
Lola: SAT / SEN
Dallara-ART: PTO / NAK
USGPE: ALL / PAT
Litespeed: MAL / FIS
Penske: DIX / SPE
iSport: MOT / PIQ

Actually I'd probably follow this as well to keep track of the massive bet I'd have put on Button at the start of the season.

[UltimateDanGTR]

In recent days got thinking about it - and I'll ask you. Which series would you watch? :D

A1'10: 3 cars per team
Ferrari: FM / KR / FA
Toyota: JT / TG / KK
McLaren: LH / HK / NR
BMW-Sauber: RK / NH / CK
Red Bull: SV / SBu / BH(artley)
Renault: RG / LdG / MW

F1 2010 (all teams powered by Cosworth)
BrawnGP: BUT / BAR
Williams: HUL / DAV
Force India: SUT / LIU
ProDrive: DLR / PAF
Lola: SAT / SEN
Dallara-ART: PTO / NAK
USGPE: ALL / PAT
Litespeed: MAL / FIS
Penske: DIX / SPE
iSport: MOT / PIQ

id do my best to watch both, then work out which one is more farcicle, then disown that.

[call_me_andrew]

Mugsy laid it all out quite well with the exception of A. J. "An American Series for American drivers" Foyt winning the thing with a Swedish driver. Hypocrite.

Max and Bernie will eat nothing. They hold the rights to use the name "Formula 1" and "World Championship" and that is what the TV networks and merchandisers have bought into. There is more than enough time to have enough customer engines and chassis ready by 2010. The grid will be full regardless of who quits. Like Tony George, Max and Bernie will be marketing a vastly inferior product as Formula 1 Grand Prix World Championship. While older fans drift away in disgust, new fans will take their place and for those new fans, what they see will be Formula 1 racing. Within a couple seasons the fans, just like the IRL crowd, will believe they are watching the real deal...Championship racing...the Pinnacle of Motorsport.

Bernie and Max won't lose as long as they own the name.

If a well known name is all that a series needs, the IndyCar Series should be thriving. Instead the "IRL crowd" is mostly a bunch of old guys talking about how much better everything was before the split.

In fact I suggested a few months ago that FOTA purchase the IRL just to have the rights to the name IndyCar. I was laughed out of the thread.

http://forix.autosport.com/8w/march90ca/ferrari637a.jpg

[Koz]

In fact I suggested a few months ago that FOTA purchase the IRL just to have the rights to the name IndyCar. I was laughed out of the thread.

Would be pointless, I'd think, Indy is short for Indianapolis?
That name would be no good for FOTA or anyone else other than someone operation from/around Indianapolis.

[peasant]

First off nice sig

ok, the issue in the USA with the open Cart/IRL split is a bit different. Open wheel racing was already in decline at that point and NASCAR was seriously on the rise. The big 4 sports still dominated the sports landscape as well.



Thats not true



CART failed because of americans - the lack thereof. Wasn't everything also based around one single event too?
It was always doomed.

That's untrue and utterly stupid



Of course racing runs on sponsorship and the sponsors wanted to be at Indy, so many teams were forced into IRL by sponsor pressure. The departure of sponsorship dollars really weakened CART and eventually it became a second-rate series. Of course IRL was second-rate in it's concept, so there wasn't any really top shelf open wheel series left in America.


Your post was good except this. CART was still clearly the Dominant series until Toyota and Honda with others decided to attempt to kill it off in 2003 and take their operations and a large number of teams to the IRL. CART having allowed itself to become dependant on manufacturers dollars (or more particularly yen) was able to be severely wounded by this, but by no means dead - apalling mismanagement of the patients rehabilitation finished it off.

The CART had no indy argument so it died is fallacious.

[Mugsey]

In recent days got thinking about it - and I'll ask you. Which series would you watch? :D

A1'10: 3 cars per team
Ferrari: FM / KR / FA
Toyota: JT / TG / KK
McLaren: LH / HK / NR
BMW-Sauber: RK / NH / CK
Red Bull: SV / SBu / BH(artley)
Renault: RG / LdG / MW

F1 2010 (all teams powered by Cosworth)
BrawnGP: BUT / BAR
Williams: HUL / DAV
Force India: SUT / LIU
ProDrive: DLR / PAF
Lola: SAT / SEN
Dallara-ART: PTO / NAK
USGPE: ALL / PAT
Litespeed: MAL / FIS
Penske: DIX / SPE
iSport: MOT / PIQ

Sports car racing...

[V12]

In recent days got thinking about it - and I'll ask you. Which series would you watch? :D

A1'10: 3 cars per team
Ferrari: FM / KR / FA
Toyota: JT / TG / KK
McLaren: LH / HK / NR
BMW-Sauber: RK / NH / CK
Red Bull: SV / SBu / BH(artley)
Renault: RG / LdG / MW

F1 2010 (all teams powered by Cosworth)
BrawnGP: BUT / BAR
Williams: HUL / DAV
Force India: SUT / LIU
ProDrive: DLR / PAF
Lola: SAT / SEN
Dallara-ART: PTO / NAK
USGPE: ALL / PAT
Litespeed: MAL / FIS
Penske: DIX / SPE
iSport: MOT / PIQ


Both! Although if "F1" started getting cute with standard parts and the Cosworth engine was mandated (rather than everyone using it by choice), I'd probably switch off before long...

[gerkebi]

I've heard a 40mm Euro cap, then a 40mm dollar cap, then a 40mm dollar cap with a 10mm payment back from F1, we're actually getting down close to Indycar levels. If the big boys leave F1 and form their own series, and Tony George decides to quit subsidizing Indycar as he said he will by 2013, we could be looking at an interesting series.

Teams like Penske, Andretti, Ganassi, Rahal/Lanigan (the old Newman/Hass), along with the remaining F1 teams plus the heathier new ones in the works would make up the new F1.

Imagine an Americas campaign: Brazil/Long Beach/Laguna/Mid Ohio/Indy 500/Road America/Montreal; then off to Europe: Spa/Monte Carlo/Silverstone/Imola/Catalunya/ Hockenheim; then off to Melbourne/Shaghai/Singapore/Suzuka; next stop Turkey/ Bahrain and the finale at Abu Dhabi.

Then the big boys could continue their big budgets/super high technology and cut deals for circuits not in bed with Bernie for a new premier series. That would crush Bernie's monoply and create some interesting competition for the tracks, and create a couple of compelling series to watch. Indycar and F1 are not much fun to watch these days, maybe it's time to reshuffle the open wheel deck.

[call_me_andrew]

Well these days IndyCar budgets are about $5 million per car. Those numbers are more inline with a Sprint Cup budget of $20 million per car.

And Peasant has a point. IndyCar wasn't in decline when the split happened, but it had become stagnate.