Anyone else miss crap teams? ;)

[Soperfan]

Something about the likes of Osella, AGS,Coloni and so on that i miss!

ok so they were crap but i miss the Leaders cutting thru the backmarkers lap after lap (they dont do it so much now as the cars are much closer to the pace).

I thought it was a real skill especially when 2 or 3 backmarkers were squabbling amongst themselves and many an overtake or spin occured due to the actions of these guys.

Also i cant wait for 26 cars again! the track is too empty with 20! ;)

[Garry Walker]

The less comedy we have in F1, the better.

[BDunnell]

To some extent, but some of the efforts were really embarrassing, so I don't miss them too much, even though I am no great fan of F1 having become so relentlessly 'professional'.

[wedge]

The less comedy we have in F1, the better.

Agreed. I just don't get the nostalgic fondness for crap teams with crap drivers.

But if you want comedy motorsport there's always A1GP...

[ykiki]

Some of the backmarker or "crap" teams I miss (Minardi, Simtek) while others I don't really care about (Andrea Moda, Lola).

However, what I really miss are the midpack teams that sometimes ended up in the points (Arrows, Larrouse, Fondmetal, Tyrrell and Lotus in their later years, Scuderia Italia, Prost, Leyton House). It was always fun cheering them on knowing that they could qualify in the back row one week and qualify in the top 10 the next. Add a little rain and you never know what could happen. Heck, they might even surprise everyone and put a driver on the podium. These teams added a little "spice" to the show without the comedy.

Plus it was always fun to look forward to their new car launches every Winter, since many of these teams weren't afraid to go out on a limb with some trick design. Unfortunately, they then lacked the budget to continue developing a their designs as the season progressed.

[52Paddy]

I was always a supporter of the underdog teams and loved to see them doing well. Its not so much 'crap' teams I miss, but an array of privateers. Manufacturer involvement has diluted the sport, in my opinion, and taken away that 'spice' (as ykiki nicely put it) from the results sheets. Many people won't understand this viewpoint so I'm not going to argue it across. But I do wish that more private teams would try their hand at F1. I guess the lack of that interest in F1 now for the privateers is testimony to its current lack of appeal, high cost and waste of investment.

[555-04Q2]

I miss Minardi. used to love the way they entered F1 year in and year out on a shoestring budget. They were slow as sh!t on a frosty morning, but they had balls and character.

[Dave B]

There's a world of difference between the near-the-back-of-the-grid underdogs - your Minardis and Force Indias - and plain embarrassing efforts like Lola.

[punter_S14]

Some teams may have been embarrassing from time-to-time, but at least they didn't carry the pungeant odour of the divide & conquer corporate world so much.
In a way I hope the manufacturers do leave, as relying on modest race teams will pull back the opulance/waste a little & let the sports true friends re-gain control. Hopefully.

[markabilly]

NO, just crappy drivers like Sato.....Danica P.,.....and Button......oppos he is no longer crappy....

[big_sw2000]

NO, just crappy drivers like Sato.....Danica P.,.....and Button......oppos he is no longer crappy....
Or Kimi

[V12]

Can only echo others sentiments here really, I don't miss the likes of Life, Andrea Moda or Mastercard Lola (although each makes a good story, I don't really see the romance in Perry McCarthy's Andrea Moda's steering rack seizing mid-way through Eau Rouge because his car was being basically used as a rolling spare for Moreno's car)

But your Minardi's, BMS Dallaras, Osella, Rial, Coloni, Onyx, AGS, Leyton House March etc. etc. were just as an important part of the sport as McLaren, Ferrari, Williams etc. and the sport was, to use modern day corporate speak, "devalued", when they fell by the wayside, unable to be replaced by teams of a similar fashion thanks to Bernie and Max's $48 mil bond and their preoccupation with manufacturers and "professionalism"...oooh look how that one turned out...

Actually scratch my opening paragraph, well sort of. As far as Life goes, imagine looking at that thing crawling round the track and thinking to yourself "They're in F1 - and I could probably build a car that goes marginally quicker than that in my garage!". Like that "eel" guy who swam in the Olympics, I guess it went to show you could get to where you wanted to be if you tried hard enough, even if it resulted in you failing spectacularly once you actually got there :)

So in summation yes, I do miss "crap" teams - a lot.

[Soperfan]

V12's post is what i was meaning. those of you who are embarrassed by the 'Life' and Andrea Moda kind of teams.. well i dont want them either.they had no place in F1.

I was just meaning the small private teams which i reckon really added to the world of F1. your Osellas,Arrows,Zakspeeds.. those kind of teams that never threatened the winners rostrum but still often had good drivers and could have a real say in a race. i do miss that :)

[52Paddy]

As far as Life goes, imagine looking at that thing crawling round the track

I would pay to see that, literally. Just a piece of video footage, just the sound of that sick W12 engine. If only...

[V12]

V12's post is what i was meaning. those of you who are embarrassed by the 'Life' and Andrea Moda kind of teams.. well i dont want them either.they had no place in F1.

I was just meaning the small private teams which i reckon really added to the world of F1. your Osellas,Arrows,Zakspeeds.. those kind of teams that never threatened the winners rostrum but still often had good drivers and could have a real say in a race. i do miss that :)

Definitely - The argument against our viewpoint is usually "What's the point of teams turning up if they can't win." - My counter-argument is that with that attitude you'd end up with a grid of 4 or 6 cars at most. 20+ cars being able to compete for victory at the top level is some sort of utopia that is only very rarely achievable (mid-late 90s CART is about the only thing I can think of)

[woody2goody]

I miss Minardi. used to love the way they entered F1 year in and year out on a shoestring budget. They were slow as sh!t on a frosty morning, but they had balls and character.

Minardi did a pretty good job considering their budget. Simtek had a lot to go through especially in 1994. I feel for poor David Brabham who was completely knocked off his career path by it. He also had to contend with driving that monstrosity of a Life car in 1990(?).

[wedge]

I suppose I agree with V12.

Ah, Simtek! Only reason I admired that team was because Nick Wirth was touted as the next Adrian Newey. Still badly missed in F1 but doing a splendid job for Acura in ALMS.

[patnicholls]

Agreed with V12's post #12 above.

Another fairly obvious point is that small, private teams are rather more likely to be 'OK' (relatively speaking, clearly no-one wants to be at the back) with being at the back of the pack than manufacturers, if you see my point.

Teams like Minardi and Larrousse were actually midfield for a reasonable amount of their time in the sport - the difference being that with big fields and points for only the top 6 that they might still only pick up a couple of scores during the year. But even so, when they did it was very good to see. What can be better than a real underdog getting a result? (some of the Toro Rosso mechanics for Seb V's Monza win last year had been with Minardi since 1985, imagine how chuffed they must've been)

[markabilly]

:grenade: Why should any claim to miss crap teams, when you got the current Ferrari team......... :arrows: :rotflmao:

[Rollo]

Agreed. I just don't get the nostalgic fondness for crap teams with crap drivers.

Politoys? BAR? Toleman?

If you follow the bloodlines of those cars you get, Williams, Brawn GP, Benetton & Renault. The likes of which have all won GP and even made World Champions.

Sometimes it's impossible to tell what's going to transpire, any team which actually exists has the potential to take a driver to glory... in 8 years time... who knows?

[52Paddy]

Minardi did a pretty good job considering their budget. Simtek had a lot to go through especially in 1994. I feel for poor David Brabham who was completely knocked off his career path by it. He also had to contend with driving that monstrosity of a Life car in 1990(?).

I agree. I thought Minardi did a solid job with what they had throughout their career. David Brabham did choose the wrong team at the wrong time (Simtek 1994) but it was another Brabham (Gary) who drive the 1990 Life Car. He admitted that that season with Life ruined his F1 career from the start and he was never seen in F1 again. Shame.

[wedge]

Politoys? BAR? Toleman?

If you follow the bloodlines of those cars you get, Williams, Brawn GP, Benetton & Renault. The likes of which have all won GP and even made World Champions.

Sometimes it's impossible to tell what's going to transpire, any team which actually exists has the potential to take a driver to glory... in 8 years time... who knows?

I see what you mean but BAR were midfielders and so were Toleman because they managed to do something right whereas most struggled even to qualify for the full GP weekend.

Excuse my ignorance but I never bothered learning about a team like Osella. Everytime time I think of Osella, AGS, Coloni, I immediately think of school playgrounds and Top Trumps!

[blito]

Everytime i think of AGS i remember that spectaular startline pile up at the old Osterriechring when Phillipe Fabre ended up on top of everyone else (literally). I think it was 1987 - i`d have been twelve years old and in love with sport - the back markers especially ... when i first got into F1 in 1985 i just loved the Skoal Bandit Ram car, even though it was the absolute slowest out there :)

[Soperfan]

i loved the RAM car too Blito! that and the ATS were lovely looking cars and in 1984 that ATS was far higher up the grid at times than it was given credit for :)

[philipbain]

I remember AGS in either 1989 or 1990 having to run an F3000 chassis upgraded to F1 regs because they had designed an F1 chassis that inherantly didnt comply with the regulations!

But as for out and out crap teams, do I miss them? Nope, though I for one do miss thier no-hoper rent-a-drivers as they provided some comedy moments, such as Tarso Marques & Ricardo Rosset, the latter being the subject of a classic bit of Murray & Martin commentary on ITV's coverage of the Monaco GP, Murray Comments that there has been some debate as to whether Rosset was F1 calibre, immediately after which he performs a touch free spin and whilst trying to recover jams the car in a gap in the barrier, after which Martin says absolutely dead pan "its a short debate"!

[Rodriguez 917]

The thing I loved about crap teams were some of the crap drivers could get a seat. Remember some of these, Giovanni Lavaggi, Jean Denis Deletraz, Gregor Foitek, Giovanna Amati etc... Mind you they did produce some good current drivers like Trulli, Fisi and Alonso!

One of the best moments I ever saw was at Monaco when Alex Yoong binned it at St Devote on his first qualifying lap and the camera then showed Mika Salo openly laughing in the Toyota pit.

[V12]

The point about a lot of these outfits is that they may have been "the worst", but they were the worst of the best. Which is still pretty damn good.

Out of 13 teams the bottom team is useless and should get rid of them? OK that leaves us with 12.
Out of 12 teams the bottom team is useless and should get rid of them? OK that leaves us with 11.
Out of 11 teams the bottom team is useless and should get rid of them? OK that leaves us with 10.
Out of 10 teams the bottom team is useless and should get rid of them? OK that leaves us with 9.
Out of 9 teams the bottom team is useless and should get rid of them? OK that leaves us with 8.
etc....

You basically end up with 2 cars. Or a spec-series. And I can't for the life of me decide which is worse to be honest.

[blito]

I agree with V12, and have previously mentioned something similar on the main F1 forum when people slag off F1 drivers as being useless - to even get to F1 you have to be special.. most of us couldnt even fit in a race car cockpit, let alone drive one and i suppose its the same for teams... you think Colini was crap so lets see your efforts instead - mines based on a bathtup and has a vespa engine :D

[blito]

ROFL m8 :0

i play rFactor quite a bit and tbh, i suck massively :) i can barely keep F1`s on the road, and you know when i do complete a lap its usually below my F3 pace!

[Anubis]

I used to love seeing the "decent but small" teams surprising everyone once in a while. Minardi popping into the points was always cause for celebration, and I'm sure Martini or Campos stuck one on the second row one year, or did I dream that? Adelaide? I used to cheer on the likes of Leyton House, Onyx and Rial, not to mention Hill during his Arrows season. I don't miss the basket cases like Pacific, Coloni or Eurobrun, but having the "plucky underdogs" in there biting at the heels of the big boys is always good, which is why the BrawnGP story is go great. It gets boring seeing the biggest chequebook winning everything.

[blito]

I seem to recall that it was Martini who stuck his Minardi-Ferrari on the front row at phoenix in 1991.... although i could be wrong as i cba to look it up :)

[V12]

Wrong year and engine - it was 1990 with Ford power. De Cesaris's Dallara was third and Alesi's Tyrrell was fourth on that particular grid - good times.

[Croco]

The thing I loved about crap teams were some of the crap drivers could get a seat. Remember some of these, Giovanni Lavaggi, Jean Denis Deletraz, Gregor Foitek, Giovanna Amati etc... Mind you they did produce some good current drivers like Trulli, Fisi and Alonso!

Well said. If we didn't have crap teams, we wouldn't have crap drivers either (i mean real crap drivers). I also have a special feeling for crap teams from the late 80's and early 90's. :)

[Jon 'Massa' Beagles]

God I do! Used to love the Simtek's and Pacific's competing with the big guys. Open F1 up to anyone that wants to and host a couple of rounds of pre-qualifying to root out the worst ones. That would be fantastic!!! :D

[ArrowsFA1]

I feel for poor David Brabham who was completely knocked off his career path by it. He also had to contend with driving that monstrosity of a Life car in 1990(?).
Wasn't that Gary :confused: Anyway, it was nice to see the Life running at Goodwood this year, and driven by little "Art" as well!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/antsphoto/3706229305/in/set-72157620970090779/

Its other driver that weekend wasn't such a good fit!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA2wYkg2wKU&NR=1

[Placid]

And who can forget Forti Corse and Pacific. And a driver nickenamed "Johnny
Carwash" - Giovanni Lavaggi. I remember how close in the 1995 finale at
Adelaide Pedro Diniz came from scoring a point after 1 of the Ligiers was
nursing the car to the finish.

And I do miss Ligier.

[race_director]

yes i do miss Minardi

they were the the most competitive crap team i guess :)
they were good but . always liked watching them dance if the score a point.


apart from MINARDI . all other teams where just killing some time and spending excess money they had i guess

[Jon 'Massa' Beagles]

Ah Ligier...will always remember Panis' drive in the wet at Monaco in '96 or Suzuka '95 just before my birthday party when he worked his way up to 5th :)

That season was the last time there was a GP in November I think! :p

I tell a lie...1998 had a GP on the 1st November. Oh and 2008 one on the 2nd...meh. Fail :P

[52Paddy]

apart from MINARDI . all other teams where just killing some time and spending excess money they had i guess

Ah, I wouldn't say that they were 'just killing some time and spending excess money they had.' Some of them teams had done genuinely well in previous categories. Take Pacific for example. They blitzed the lower formulae. But they came to F1 with an outdated, sluggish design. The same goes for Forti. Given, Forti had a healthy sum of money in 1995, but their car was a disaster. Their budget was practically wasted that year and come 1996 (when their car was half-decent) the funds had run out in order to develop it and keep sponsors happy. I remember there was some legal action taken in the late stages of Forti's career (mid 1996?) They team ended up disbanding thereafter which was a shame because, in my view, Shannon Engineering (or Shannon something-or-other) are to partly blame for Forti's demise. Shannon agreed to fund Forti if Forti gave them something like 50% of the team's shares. One thing led to another, funds didn't arrive, bla bla bla. Sayanara Forti.

[Mekola]

Indeed I miss bottom-line teams. I think they're necessary to fill the gaps, to add seats on the list, and not necesarilly they're crap.
Minardi did a solid job as a midfielder, as did Arrows.
In spite of that, 1989 was a dream for me with that 39-car lineup.

[Jon 'Massa' Beagles]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone argue against more teams being in Formula 1. The only arguments I hear are against more teams if they are at a lower standard and having more teams in the race.

Pre-Qualifying and the 107% rule...not bad ideas in Formula 1. I will say it until I'm blue in the face! Having said that I'm completely against qualifying in most formats...as Alan Henry says 'If you line up all the cars from fastest to slowest then why are you surprised by no overtaking?!?' Anyway, back on topic I think that Formula 1 should be opened up to allow privateer outfits to have a shot at it...if they aren't good enough then they wont make it through Pre Qualifying. Simple.

[V12]

I think that Formula 1 should be opened up to allow privateer outfits to have a shot at it...if they aren't good enough then they wont make it through Pre Qualifying. Simple.

That sentence pretty much sums up my beliefs too. I don't expect new teams to be artifically given a leg up, they have to earn their success, but I honestly can't think of one negative drawback to the pre-qualifying system.

Yes the teams had to work in cramped conditions and some people might think it's insane that some teams would only show up for half an hour on a Friday morning only to be sent packing straight afterwards, but if they're insane enough to try it, let them :cool:

[nigelred5]

With the ban on in season testing and the limited number of teams, what opportunity does almost any driver have of ever turning a wheel in F1. ther aer far too many good drivers on the planet to see seats perenially filled by drivers that race 200 gp's with out a win. Had it not been for Eddie Jordan's crap team(at the time), we may have never seen Michael Schumacher. We need more teams in F1, especially Privateer teams for younger drivers to get a start in F1.