2009 shades of 2004

[truefan72]

Bravo max and bernie,

so this is the excitement that these new rules were supposed to bring us

1. a team with semi-illegal parts that was then deemed legal running away with the championship with a clear advantage over every other car. built with notion of pushing the envelope beyond the spirit of the rules and then managing to get the car legal. Instead of making the 3 cars change the obvious advantage gained by stretching the truth, they instead make the 7 other cars scramble and spend millions to fit their cars with these diffusers.
In my mind the only real excellent car out there is the RBR.

2. the WDC and WCC effectively over by the 5th race, with clear team orders already in place forcing Rubens, who was no his way to a victory, to 3 stop in order to allow mr. " i can't believe my luck driving a superior car" Button to steal the victory.

3. A kers system that penalizes heavier/bigger drivers. And one that olny 2 teams use. And of those 2 teams the Ferrari kers is shambolic.

This is juuuuust great.!

We had the last two years of exceptional races,close fights and by the end of 2008 at least 6 teams that could challenge for race victories.

now we are down to 2, and with next years stupid rule suggestions, with another 2 victories, button would have already won the WDC.

Bravo F1 for bringing us these stupid cars, boring races, no in season testing,semi-illegal cars running away with the championship, the return of flagrant team orders and the promise for even more stupidity in 2010. I'll not be surprised if the fan interest dwindles over the next few months. I for one am barely interested.

[Daniel]

Absolute rubbish

[Dave B]

Wahh my team isn't winning so it's all unfair. :rolleyes:

[wedge]

1. a team with semi-illegal parts that was then deemed legal running away with the championship with a clear advantage over every other car. built with notion of pushing the envelope beyond the spirit of the rules and then managing to get the car legal. Instead of making the 3 cars change the obvious advantage gained by stretching the truth, they instead make the 7 other cars scramble and spend millions to fit their cars with these diffusers.

Legal. Deal with it.



2. the WDC and WCC effectively over by the 5th race, with clear team orders already in place forcing Rubens, who was no his way to a victory, to 3 stop in order to allow mr. " i can't believe my luck driving a superior car" Button to steal the victory.

Altering strategy is hardly enforced #1/#2 driver team orders and it was hardly Austria 2002/2003

Just before the podium ceremony RB admitting the car didn't feel right in the final stint.


3. A kers system that penalizes heavier/bigger drivers. And one that olny 2 teams use. And of those 2 teams the Ferrari kers is shambolic.

Change the minimum weight limit that incorporates KERS.

[Daniel]

Ooooh Dave, I should have mentioned the waaaaaaaambulance.

[aryan]

Funny thing is, I had you on my "sensible list" truefan.

Guess I'll have to revise that.

I'm thrilled with this season.

[truefan72]

It has nothing to do with macs not winning. Even if the brawns were not in he picture, macs would still be mid pack, fair and square

what Im surprised by the reaftion here is that the same folks were probably lamenting the absolute dominance of ferrari in 2004 and now that it is another team which such a clear cut advantage arrived at semi-egal mannetr you folsk think it is all nice and dandy. I'd say you have to be Brawn GP fans, becuase I doubt anyone else is too keen on watching them lap the field, finishing 1-2.

The bigger poitn which you all miss in your efforts to insult is that these rules were put into place to bring about better racing and they have had the complete opposite effect.

Never mind the fact that these cars still don't improve overtaking (see vettel not being able to come closer than 0.7 sec to massa all race with a clearly sueprior car) or the fact that three teams found a loophole that if Macs had found that others didn't, you'd be screaming bloody murder.

The simple fact is that the WDC and certainly the WCC is effectively already decided by the 5th race. Explain to me how this is good for the sport?

[Daniel]

The racing has been great. Pick up your toys and put them back in the pram, well it could have been worse..... You could have brought race into it.

[truefan72]

Legal. Deal with it.
deemed legal after 3 races, and it forced teams to scrambe around spending millions to change ther cars after the seaso started. Would it not have been simpler to tell those 3 teams to comply with the rules that the 7 other teams seemed to understand?



Altering strategy is hardly enforced #1/#2 driver team orders and it was hardly Austria 2002/2003

Just before the podium ceremony RB admitting the car didn't feel right in the final stint.

erm, what do you expect rubens to say?
he doesn't want to loose his seat mid season or stop driving a superior cars.
They already have others eagerly wating in the wings to take the seat of the 37 yr old if he does not wish to adhere to team strategy.



Change the minimum weight limit that incorporates KERS.
good idea, one which you and I agree on...but sadly the FIA have not made that logical move. So you and I thinking it should be done, does not compute to it actually happening. LOL

[truefan72]

The racing has been great. Pick up your toys and put them back in the pram, well it could have been worse..... You could have brought race into it.

funny, you brought it up, didn't you?

just a foolsih thing to bring up Daniel.
If you have nothigng off value to say, simply let other speak instead of making a fool of yourself.

you simply don;t know where or when to stop crossing that line do you

just sad

[Daniel]

You made your bed and now you have to sleep in it.

Sad for you, a larf for me.

[truefan72]

You made your bed and now you have to sleep in it.

Sad for you, a larf for me.

My bed is nixce,I'm not the one who plays with fire and months...and I mean months after the fact, still can;t get over it and tries to bring the race issue back to the front. If you have an issue with me add me to your ignore list. otherwise stop wasting everyone's time with you personal agenda.

which is off topic and only makes you look wierd.

tell you what, I'll add you to my ignore list and we can all be happy

peace

[UltimateDanGTR]

Oh No! A brit is winning! And a british team! Whatever next! This is terrible! :D

Actually, its beginning to get a little boring watching the same guy winning all the time, reminds me of the schumacher days. Cant Button win the WC Hamilton style? ie. last corner last lap last race? he has to be too smooth doesnt he (and in the best car).

[Daniel]

My bed is nixce,I'm not the one who plays with fire and months...and I mean months after the fact, still can;t get over it and tries to bring the race issue back to the front. If you have an issue with me add me to your ignore list. otherwise stop wasting everyone's time with you personal agenda.

which is off topic and only makes you look wierd.

tell you what, I'll add you to my ignore list and we can all be happy

peace

I was just trying to make you realise how ridiculous your statement about racism in F1 was. When Lewis puts his helmet on he might as well have green skin for all I care. I've actually slightly warmed to Lewis now that he's not got the arrogance and wild confidence of the last two years. You just need to realise that people disliking him has nothing to do with race and everything to do with attitude. Just admit you were widly wrong to bring Lewis' race into those arguments and I promise NEVER to mention this again.

[F1boat]

Oh No! A brit is winning! And a british team! Whatever next! This is terrible! :D

Actually, its beginning to get a little boring watching the same guy winning all the time, reminds me of the schumacher days. Cant Button win the WC Hamilton style? ie. last corner last lap last race? he has to be too smooth doesnt he (and in the best car).

I don't agree. IMO Button's wins are highly impressive, because he became this season a hero from zero, and I think that Brawn uses great tactics in the last two races and not simply superior performance, like in 2004.

[woody2goody]

truefan, you've lost it mate.

Brawn's car is legal, like the Ferrari was in 04. just because it happened to be questioned doesn't mean that there was ever any danger of it being illegal.

Boring races??? - what a daft thing to say, after all there were more overtaking moves in China than in any race for the past 5-10 years.

Australia - multiple safety cars, accidents, overtaking, boring wasn't it?

Bahrain - Great strategical race, not lots of overtaking but it wasn't exactly Monaco either.

Malaysia - possibly the best race of the year until the stoppage.

And today we even saw overtaking at the Circuit de Catalunya! I'm just receiving news that hell has indeed frozen over...

Oh by the way, doesn't your signature say 'You can't argue with results'? Hmm..

[woody2goody]

I don't agree. IMO Button's wins are highly impressive, because he became this season a hero from zero, and I think that Brawn uses great tactics in the last two races and not simply superior performance, like in 2004.

The 04 Ferrari was so far in front it was a joke. Brawn don't have that luxury of a second per lap over the field. In fact many people are saying the aren't the fastest team any more.

[F1boat]

I think that RBR are fastest, but not by much and Brawn uses brilliant strategy to beat them.

[woody2goody]

I think that RBR are fastest, but not by much and Brawn uses brilliant strategy to beat them.

Although they should have finished the other way around. The best ploy would have been to change both drivers' strategies.

[veeten]

in short...

the former employees of a Manufacturer's racing team(including their former director/manager) with a small payroll, bought out the former manufacturer team's equipment, including their chassis for the next season, put together a engine supply deal with another already participating manufacturer, retained the drivers of said team, and is now winning races and making big press.

Oh, the horror!! :rolleyes:

To me, it's like the story of Tyrrell, all over again.

[jens]

I said already during winter testing that the pre-season period looked suspiciosuly similar to 2004. :p : After a close 2003 the competition seemed even tighter in testing and expectations were high. At the same time the question was asked - would one team suddenly come and ruin all that "close fight and excitement" party? And yes, Brawn GP came out of nowhere and has been doing exactly that.

For the second race in a row right strategy has played a major part in Button's win. It was the case in 2004 too. MS had several close battles (like with Alonso in France), but somehow all these ended in his favour. :p :

2004 positions in first five races.
MS 1-1-1-1-1
RB 2-4-2-6-2

2009:
JB 1-1-3-1-1
RB 2-5-4-5-2

Similar? Quite. :p :
Well, according to this scenario Button won't win at Monaco and there will be superior cars to BGP's. :)

[christophulus]

Despite being British the dominance of Button is getting a bit tiresome. Brawn are doing the best job, no question, but I was hoping Toyota, Red Bull etc would be a little closer by now!

Maybe we've just been spoiled by the last couple of years being so close?

[AndyL]

There's plenty of time for the season to get much closer. I don't think Brawn's and Button's dominance will last. Vettel just needs to get the rub of the green a bit more to regularly win races, and Ferrari look like they're getting there at least in terms of pure speed.

[F1boat]

I agree with AndyL, however I enjoy Jenson's dominance. I missed a team and driver doing such a fine job. Personally I think that the second part of the season will be very close and this might help Brawn as their rivals will steal points from each other.

[savage86]

This is just silly Jenson has done so well this year because he has kept his head. While others around him even RB a veteran and Vettal have at times lost theirs. The RBR is faster at the moment there is no doubt about that and they get a new diffuser for Monaco!

The reason so many complained about 2004 is because Ferrari had won drivers and constructers championships from 2000 to 2004. People were bored of it and sick of it. They wanted someone else to win it, and your complaining that just because Jenson has won 3/4 races. Pfff Jenson had only won one grandprix and Brawn GP none before the season I’m finding it new and exciting! Just deal with it dude

[BDunnell]

If there is a comparison, so what? For me, my level of interest in F1 is far higher when one gets a season like this than one along the lines of 2004, when the racing down the field was often unexciting.

And yes, there are some very silly comments in this thread by people I had thought would know better.

[woody2goody]

If there is a comparison, so what? For me, my level of interest in F1 is far higher when one gets a season like this than one along the lines of 2004, when the racing down the field was often unexciting.

And yes, there are some very silly comments in this thread by people I had thought would know better.

Yeah the results are similar but how the results have developed has been much different. the racing has been great this year IMO.

[BDunnell]

Yeah the results are similar but how the results have developed has been much different.

Very well put.

[Wasted Talent]

truefan, you've lost it mate.

Brawn's car is legal, like the Ferrari was in 04. just because it happened to be questioned doesn't mean that there was ever any danger of it being illegal.

Boring races??? - what a daft thing to say, after all there were more overtaking moves in China than in any race for the past 5-10 years.

Australia - multiple safety cars, accidents, overtaking, boring wasn't it?

Bahrain - Great strategical race, not lots of overtaking but it wasn't exactly Monaco either.

Malaysia - possibly the best race of the year until the stoppage.

And today we even saw overtaking at the Circuit de Catalunya! I'm just receiving news that hell has indeed frozen over...

Oh by the way, doesn't your signature say 'You can't argue with results'? Hmm..


Agreed!!

I think people are impressed that a small, clever team has stuck it to mega-bucks Ferarri and McLaren. Maybe it would get boring if Jenson was miles out in front every race, but that hasn't really been the case....

If Kubica and Vettel hadn't collided in Australia, Vettel kept in front of Massa at the start today, and one or two other small things then the results could have been very different.

Toyota have gone from pole to midfield in one race, and fuel problems aside Ferrari have gome from the back to the front in the same time.

Makes it one of the most interesting seasons for a long while

WT

[veeten]

in short, a team that had their chassis well sorted before the season began, and has very little in the need of major upgrades.

That's how Brawn has been at the top this season.

[woody2goody]

Agreed!!

I think people are impressed that a small, clever team has stuck it to mega-bucks Ferarri and McLaren. Maybe it would get boring if Jenson was miles out in front every race, but that hasn't really been the case....

If Kubica and Vettel hadn't collided in Australia, Vettel kept in front of Massa at the start today, and one or two other small things then the results could have been very different.

Toyota have gone from pole to midfield in one race, and fuel problems aside Ferrari have gome from the back to the front in the same time.

Makes it one of the most interesting seasons for a long while

WT

In the first 5 races of 04, it was much less close than 09. All the races so far could have been won by someone else:

Australia: Kubica? Vettel?
Malaysia: Glock? Massa? Rosberg? Heidfeld?
Bahrain: Trulli? Glock?
Spain: Barrichello? Webber?

[jens]

In the first 5 races of 04, it was much less close than 09. All the races so far could have been won by someone else:

Australia: Kubica? Vettel?
Malaysia: Glock? Massa? Rosberg? Heidfeld?
Bahrain: Trulli? Glock?
Spain: Barrichello? Webber?

Massa in Malaysia? Having started from P16? :)
Glock not so much in Bahrain. I'd add Vettel in Bahrain and Spain. I feel that his last two races have been heavily compromised. Considering that recently his races have mostly consisted of watching someone's rear wing, he may start seeing nightmares of rear wings soon. :p :

[woody2goody]

Here's the comparison:

2004 Australian GP: 1. M Schumacher, Barrichello +13.6, Alonso +34.6
2009 Australian GP: 1. Button, Barrichello +0.8, Trulli +2.6 (SC Finish)

2004 Malaysian GP: 1. M Schumacher, Montoya +5.0, Button +11.5
2009 Malaysian GP: 1. Button, Heidfeld +22.7, Glock +23.5

2004 Bahrain GP: 1. M Schumacher, Barrichello +1.3, Button +26.6
2009 Chinese GP: 1. Vettel, Webber +10.9, Button +44.9

2004 San Marino GP: 1. M Schumacher, Button +9.7, Montoya +21.6
2009 Bahrain GP: 1. Button, Vettel +7.1, Trulli +9.1

2004 Spanish GP: 1. M Schumacher, Barrichello +13.2, Trulli +32.2
2009 Spanish GP: 1. Button, Barrichello +13.0, Webber +13.9

Interestingly, Rubens Barrichello was beaten in 2003 by almost exactly the same margin by Michael Schumacher in Barcelona :D

[woody2goody]

Massa in Malaysia? Having started from P16? :)
Glock not so much in Bahrain. I'd add Vettel in Bahrain and Spain. I feel that his last two races have been heavily compromised. Considering that recently his races have mostly consisted of watching someone's rear wing, he may start seeing nightmares of rear wings soon. :p :

I think it was Massa in Malaysia, but it could well have been China. He was up there in the top 5 and very fast in one of those two races. He was P13 on the grid in China too.

[jens]

I think it was Massa in Malaysia, but it could well have been China. He was up there in the top 5 and very fast in one of those two races. He was P13 on the grid in China too.

Yes, it was China. ;) But even there he wasn't competitive enough to have any kind of realistic shot at the win. Red Bulls were from another planet!

[woody2goody]

Yes, it was China. ;) But even there he wasn't competitive enough to have any kind of realistic shot at the win. Red Bulls were from another planet!

Yeah they were in that one. That's why I thought Massa could have won Malaysia. Oh well :)

RBR flew in China, they destroyed everyone.

[truefan72]

you folks still don't get my point

the whole point of the complete makeover of the 2009 cars and regs was to promote better racing, closer fights, more excitment and overtaking.

Now this has proven to be a serious failure at all levels.

We now have one team about to wrap up the WDC and WCC in less than 6 races and 3 cars that were under suspicion of having an unfair advantage. Ruling here or there, it is pretty clear to everyone thattheir chasis was borderline at the outset, so much so that other teams filed protests.

This has nothing to do with macs, actually the real victims here are RBR and Renault who both built exceptional cars but are really no match to Brawn GP.

If this is the kind of competition you guys want then good for you and has more to do with charming story of zero to hero than actually what is occurring on the track. Outside of that particular storyline. I'm not to sure the vast majority of fans are interested in watching Brawn GP run away with both championships.

and another quick point to those that think it is a small team making it big.
Seriously, Honda invested hundreds of millions into the team and car for 2009 and then stupidly decided to quit F1. BrawnGP bough the team for pennies on the dollar and still manged to get all the advantages a major team has, from infrastructure, to engineers, etc.

[F1boat]

you folks still don't get my point

the whole point of the complete makeover of the 2009 cars and regs was to promote better racing, closer fights, more excitment and overtaking.

Now this has proven to be a serious failure at all levels.

We now have one team about to wrap up the WDC and WCC in less than 6 races and 3 cars that were under suspicion of having an unfair advantage. Ruling here or there, it is pretty clear to everyone that heir chasis was borderline at the outset, so much so that other teams filed protests.

This has nothing to do with macs, actually the real victims here are RBR and Renault who both built exceptional cars but are really no match to Brawn GP.

If this is the kind of competition you guys want then good for you and has more to do with charming story of zero to hero than actually what is occurring on the track. Outside of that particular storyline. I'm not to sure the vast majority of fans are interested in watching Brawn GP run away with both championships.

and another quick point to those that think it is a small team making it big.
Seriously, Honda invested hundreds of millions into the team and car for 2009 and then stupidly decided to quit F1. BrawnGP bough the team for pennies on the dollar and still manged to get all the advantages a major team has, from infrastructure, to engineers, etc.

I disagree, truefan. About the complete makeover of the rules, actually I was against changing the rules as the last two seasons were cracking. I am against creating artificial drama like in the Sprint Cup series. I am against overtaking like in the IRL. Yes, it should be possible, but for me there is nothing more exciting then a brilliant defense like Alonso in Imola in 2005 or Senna in Monaco 92. And overtaking this season is easy enough as we saw in the first races of the season. This is enough for me.
About the one team who would win quickly, I wish that Brawn was sure to get both titles, but they are not that stronger. Actually RBR are very strong and while I believe that Brawn will beat them in the end, IMO it will be because of superior strategy and not crushing pace.
And about the diffuser gate, as I said, I am against team penalized because they were innovative and smart.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I still think Vettel will push Button for the title this year. All Vettel needs to do is get ahead of all the KERS cars at the start.

[Knock-on]

I can appreciate what you are saying Truefan but must disagree.

The rise of Brawn has been the F1 equilivant of a Cinderella story. You have a point about whether the diffusers would be deemed legal but looking at the rules, there is nothing wrong with them. Time to get over the decision and accept it.

The big difference this year is the superb job being done by Jenson and the Brawn team. There is not much difference, if any, between the Red Bull and Brawn cars. Just behind them we have Toyota and then Ferrari but they are fast cars with no single one having outright car advantage.

I suspect that each race from here on will see a futher convergance of performance with the Red Bulls and particularly the Ferrari getting quicker but Brawn holding on to take the championship.

As for McLaren. They have probably had the biggest gains this year in terms of pace and personally, I have loved watching Lewis drag that dog of a car into the points. People asked what he could do in a crap car and here we can see. McLaren will get better and Lewis will be right in there winning races pretty soon.

[Mark]

You mean shades of 1996 when Williams interpretation of the headrest rules was different to everyone else. Did Williams have to change to fit everyones interpretation? No, of course not because they were within the rules.

The rest messed up, simples.

2010 will be a different story, of course.

[stevie_gerrard]

I think some people are forgetting that Button only leads this championship by 14 points. Yes that seems a lot right now, but all it needs is for Button to retire twice, Rubens to win twice or Vettel to win twice and the championship is back on. Plus it looks like Ferrari look quicker again, so it won't be long until Massa and Raikonnen will be challenging for the race wins. You will see, that gap will close up eventually and we will be in Brazil, penultimate race of the season and 3 or 4 drivers challenging for the title, all seperated by 5 points or so.

[555-04Q2]

This is a bullsh!t thread. In 2004 (and 2002 for that matter) Ferrari were doing their job properly, while the rest of the teams werent. Now its 2009 and Brawn GP are doing their jobs properly and the rest arent. It has nothing to do with the FIA, Bernie, Mad Max etc. The other teams need to take the flack for doing a p!$$ poor job.

[ShiftingGears]

I think the Red Bull duo is perhaps the best driver pairing on the grid and I think that they will stop Brawn being as dominant as Ferrari was in 2004.

[truefan72]

only time will tell, but as I see it, Brawn will continue to dominate and RBR will continue to be close, but not close enough.

I'm sure we will have this conversation again 6 races down the stretch and I'm sure I'll poi tout the 5 more victories of Brawn g and them capturing the WDC and WCC running away and I'm sure folks will still be here touting a "cinderella story" ( which is really not true at all) while the majority of fans would be tuned out by the monotony of the races.

But I guess that is what some of you would like to see rather than several teams challenging for race wins and title fights coming down the wire. I guess I was wrong in my assessment of what the fans wanted to see and what the FIA were trying to promote "better racing" or 2009 and beyond

[woody2goody]

2004, 2009 - Don't even sound same!!!

[woody2goody]

only time will tell, but as I see it, Brawn will continue to dominate and RBR will continue to be close, but not close enough.

I'm sure we will have this conversation again 6 races down the stretch and I'm sure I'll poi tout the 5 more victories of Brawn g and them capturing the WDC and WCC running away and I'm sure folks will still be here touting a "cinderella story" ( which is really not true at all) while the majority of fans would be tuned out by the monotony of the races.

But I guess that is what some of you would like to see rather than several teams challenging for race wins and title fights coming down the wire. I guess I was wrong in my assessment of what the fans wanted to see and what the FIA were trying to promote "better racing" or 2009 and beyond

Prove that the races have been monotonous and/or boring and I'll entertain your argument.

I'd love to see 5 teams challenging for victories, but, at least for now we have Brawn, Red Bull and Toyota (whoever thinks Toyota are out of it are foolish). Maybe soon we'll have Ferrari, Renault and even STR. Besides, Williams have shown they can fight for the win occasionally too.

[truefan72]

we have 2 teanms challenging for victories, of which RBR got theirs in the rain.
Every other race has been a Brawn/button runaway.
also final time differences between the drivers at the race finish are more often misleading indicators of the true difference in pace and performance.

I really don't think one is able to prove ones feelings to another. To me the races have been monotonous and processional in terms of victories at the sharp end. Massa's performance was about the most thrilling aspect of the race until the fuel fiasco and still was fading from the brawns. Vettel could not get by him all race long despite being constantly under 1 second. That to me indicates that the 2009 package still does little to promote overtaking and the double diffuser creates a lot more turbulence. Of course which was unanticipated by the design strategies for the 2009 cars.

It's just my observation that 2009 has been far worse in terms of entertainment and anticipatory excitement for each race than in the previous 2 years.
just imagine where wou would have been today.By the end of last year STR was a race winning car, so was Renault (and probably RBR this year) as was BMW, Ferrari, Mclaren. toyota would have been closer and given the amount of time honda/Brawn would have invested into making an improved 2009 car, they too might have been back up there in terms of top end competitiveness.

But to each his own so lets agree to disagree on the entertainment value
:)

[PSfan]

I'm with Truefan... and that rarely happens. I suspect the recent 3 to 2 stop strategy has alot more to do with Brawn trying to hide their true pace, and not what was the best strategy. If a 3 stopper was better we would have seen a few teams risk it with one of their drivers. if a 3 stopper was better we wouldn't have had Rubens claiming he had to push harder when he heard Button had switched to plan B or A or whatever...

Looking at it another way, when was the last time a team won the WCC without a win the previous season (I'm considering Brawn as the same team as Honda for this...) I believe when I looked it up... 1974!!!

Also as for the FIA ruling the DD legal? has anyone read the explanation? I have and I can find a few faults in it, including using the FIA's logic against them... those wholes/gaps/spaces are illegal, the politics of FIA vs FOTA has allowed them to stay.

[mstillhere]

Bravo max and bernie,

so this is the excitement that these new rules were supposed to bring us

1. a team with semi-illegal parts that was then deemed legal running away with the championship with a clear advantage over every other car. built with notion of pushing the envelope beyond the spirit of the rules and then managing to get the car legal. Instead of making the 3 cars change the obvious advantage gained by stretching the truth, they instead make the 7 other cars scramble and spend millions to fit their cars with these diffusers.
In my mind the only real excellent car out there is the RBR.

2. the WDC and WCC effectively over by the 5th race, with clear team orders already in place forcing Rubens, who was no his way to a victory, to 3 stop in order to allow mr. " i can't believe my luck driving a superior car" Button to steal the victory.

3. A kers system that penalizes heavier/bigger drivers. And one that olny 2 teams use. And of those 2 teams the Ferrari kers is shambolic.

This is juuuuust great.!

We had the last two years of exceptional races,close fights and by the end of 2008 at least 6 teams that could challenge for race victories.

now we are down to 2, and with next years stupid rule suggestions, with another 2 victories, button would have already won the WDC.

Bravo F1 for bringing us these stupid cars, boring races, no in season testing,semi-illegal cars running away with the championship, the return of flagrant team orders and the promise for even more stupidity in 2010. I'll not be surprised if the fan interest dwindles over the next few months. I for one am barely interested.

Hi Truefan,

all these responses in favor of the Brawn team show you the true nature of these people's comments when MS was the master. All their concerns about Ferrari killing the sport and the joy of watching F1 and so on was only motivated by jalousy and envy. Their hypocrisy finally comes out in the open.

The Brawn team already won the championship? So what? The sport here is not the real motivator, obviously. The reason here, let's be honest about it, is seeing their team win, no matter the circumstances. But I can tell you this for sure: Ecclestone does not like this. Not a bit. Brawn dominance is not good for business. Now, you are only watching the race, I am not watching anything at all, and who knows how many other people are doing the same. He knows they made a mistake some where and......they'll "fix it".

On a positive note I have to say that what goes around comes around. I honestly don't beleive the Brawn team is going to start a cycle. I am not convinced yet.

So, I wish all the Brawn team supporters to enjoy the year hoping that your support would be enough to generate the kind of money that Ecclestone needs to run the circus.

[aryan]

I'm having more fun watching races this year, than any season since 1999. Maybe 2003 will come close, but that's about it for me.

It's purely subjective truefan. And it has a lot to do on whether your favourite driver/team is doing well or not.

[truefan72]

I'm having more fun watching races this year, than any season since 1999. Maybe 2003 will come close, but that's about it for me.

It's purely subjective truefan. And it has a lot to do on whether your favourite driver/team is doing well or not.

agreed

but honestly if Hamilton and kovy would be doing a 1-2 every race with few challengers, apart from being happy that he was winning I wouldn't find much excitement in the races at all and would completely understand how others might see such dominance as somewhat detrimental to the sport. Let alone boring.

For me a hard fought championship won challenged by worth adversaries is of more value than a team/driver running away with it. That is why 2007/2008 were great. You know these guys had to be on point every race and podiums were nothing guaranteed.

2009, so far is a fabulous year for Brawn GP and a terrible one for F1. in terms of excitement and the changes installed to promote better racing.

[mstillhere]

And about the diffuser gate, as I said, I am against team penalized because they were innovative and smart.

Any concerns about the raising cost in F1 actually caused by deeming the diffusers legal ?

[Koz]

This is a bullsh!t thread. In 2004 (and 2002 for that matter) Ferrari were doing their job properly, while the rest of the teams werent. Now its 2009 and Brawn GP are doing their jobs properly and the rest arent. It has nothing to do with the FIA, Bernie, Mad Max etc. The other teams need to take the flack for doing a p!$$ poor job.

Come on mate, if you replace Ferrari with Brawn, and Schumi with Button, you have the exact same thing don't ya? :p

Maybe it was Brawn doing all the work back then anyway...

Rubens will come second, and.... Massa\Hamilton will come third without winning a race... Alonso fourth... You get the picture... :D

[wmcot]

This is a bullsh!t thread. In 2004 (and 2002 for that matter) Ferrari were doing their job properly, while the rest of the teams werent. Now its 2009 and Brawn GP are doing their jobs properly and the rest arent. It has nothing to do with the FIA, Bernie, Mad Max etc. The other teams need to take the flack for doing a p!$$ poor job.

I agree with what you are saying, but if the domination by Button and Brawn continues into next year, get ready for some random rule changes by the FIA to make the racing "closer."

[Dave B]

I'm still not convinced that Brawn are "dominating". On paper, obviously, they lead both championships comfortably.

But if Vettel and Kubica hadn't collided in Australia there's every reason to suspect one of them would have prevailed; and in Spain the Red Bulls were demonstrably faster and one can only speculate how the race might have unfolded had Vettel not spent most of the race staring at the rear wing of Massa's KERS-equiped Ferrari.

I genuinely believe that right now Red Bull have the fastest car, and Ferrari are gaining all the time. Anybody who writes this season off on the basis of the first five races is failing to see the bigger story and risks missing some cracking races.

[Knock-on]

I'm still not convinced that Brawn are "dominating". On paper, obviously, they lead both championships comfortably.

But if Vettel and Kubica hadn't collided in Australia there's every reason to suspect one of them would have prevailed; and in Spain the Red Bulls were demonstrably faster and one can only speculate how the race might have unfolded had Vettel not spent most of the race staring at the rear wing of Massa's KERS-equiped Ferrari.

I genuinely believe that right now Red Bull have the fastest car, and Ferrari are gaining all the time. Anybody who writes this season off on the basis of the first five races is failing to see the bigger story and risks missing some cracking races.

Will you STOP bringing common sense and logic onto the forum. I've told you before that it's not welcome :D

Brawn and button are doing a superb job. They are not a clearly dominant car. In Aus then yes but they are probably not even the fastest car any more. They are just doing a faultless job.

[F1boat]

Any concerns about the raising cost in F1 actually caused by deeming the diffusers legal ?
I am tired by this as well. F1 is not spec series. If you can't allow DD, you will run without it and pay the price for this.

[V12]

Call me old fashioned, but if somebody (by "somebody" i mean a combination of team and driver) is doing a better job than everybody else, shouldn't they deserve to win?

Yeah last year's championship finale was great, but excitement and boredom are relative - if you had cars swapping positions every corner because of quirky rules, and title fights engineered to come down to the final corner of the final race every year, then that would become tedious in itself. You need your 1992s, 2002s and 2004s, so that when the drama really does happen you know it's genuine and you get even more excited by it. But maybe that's just me.

And call me even more old fashioned, but I like to see a good drubbing every now and again by a team and driver right at the top of their game, its part of what any sport is all about. Incidentally, that hasn't happened yet in 2009 IMO, people moaning at Button daring to win by more than 10 seconds obviously weren't around for days when the likes of Mansell, Senna and Schumacher would win by a minute, or occasionally even lap the field.

OK - How about we just sod the whole racing thing and script out every car's movement on the track to make it appear as exciting and dramatic as possible?

[Dave B]

Call me old fashioned, but if somebody (by "somebody" i mean a combination of team and driver) is doing a better job than everybody else, shouldn't they deserve to win?

:up:

This is why I'm a closet Williams fan: Frank Williams himself and Patrick Head whose attitude is if we're being beaten that's our fault alone and we should do better. Not to go running off to the stewards, not to protest to the FIA, not to blab to the media, but to look inside the factory walls and ask difficult questions.

[mstillhere]

Call me old fashioned, but if somebody (by "somebody" i mean a combination of team and driver) is doing a better job than everybody else, shouldn't they deserve to win?

That's what I kept in saying all throught mid 2000 but nobody listened :)


excitement and boredom are relative

I really like this part too :)

[555-04Q2]

but excitement and boredom are relative

I cant remember who quoted it, but there is a famous saying, "boredom is the sign of a weak mind".

[gloomyDAY]

Truefan, you really convinced me. Kudos!


I think the Red Bull duo is perhaps the best driver pairing on the grid and I think that they will stop Brawn being as dominant as Ferrari was in 2004.RBR got shafted by the FIA because they requested clarification on the diffuser issue and were denied from making a double decked diffuser. This is what makes this season such a sham and regret ever defending the three DDD teams.

I hope that RBR can get it together in time or else it's going to be a runaway season with an illegal car.

[wmcot]

excitement and boredom are relative

My relatives are closer to the "boredom" end of the spectrum. ;)

[Knock-on]

Truefan, you really convinced me. Kudos!

RBR got shafted by the FIA because they requested clarification on the diffuser issue and were denied from making a double decked diffuser. This is what makes this season such a sham and regret ever defending the three DDD teams.

I hope that RBR can get it together in time or else it's going to be a runaway season with an illegal car.

It may be me but why do you think the DD is illegal.

I've looked at the rules and cannot see what legitimate claim there is for making it illegal.

Just because people think it should be illegal doesn't mean it is.

[Dave B]

RBR got shafted by the FIA because they requested clarification on the diffuser issue and were denied from making a double decked diffuser.
If there's one thing we've learned from recent events it's that the FIA's "opinion" is worthless. It's only the stewards of the meetings who have any say on such matters. If a car passes scrutineering then it's legal.

There should be a system for approving cars before the season starts - for example official scrutineers at pre-season tests - but that would be too sensible for the FIA.

Just because the governing body has yet again demonstrated its incompetence, it doesn't follow that DDDs are (or ever were) illegal.

[truefan72]

If there's one thing we've learned from recent events it's that the FIA's "opinion" is worthless. It's only the stewards of the meetings who have any say on such matters. If a car passes scrutineering then it's legal.

There should be a system for approving cars before the season starts - for example official scrutineers at pre-season tests - but that would be too sensible for the FIA.

Just because the governing body has yet again demonstrated its incompetence, it doesn't follow that DDDs are (or ever were) illegal.

I hear you K,

but at the outset it was an issue and it was then deemed legal by a wishy washy process. The same issue was taken up before the season and at best the FIA were evasive and vague about its legality, and at worst told 2 teams outright that they were not legal. The fact that it had to go to a hearing 3 races into the season indicates the ambiguity of the DDD's and given the fact that 7 other teams managed to build cars (of which 2 were told that the DD would not pass) I suspect the issue of those 3 teams' cars legality was in clear doubt, and in my mind still is.

OK lets' give you the fact that these diffusers were barely legal. As the FIA is in (a) a cost cutting mode and (b) attempting to tighten up the competition and (c)trying to promote a better show, what would have been more logical? To tell those 3 teams to come up with single deck diffuser and allow them to keep their points so far, or to make 7 other teams spend millions to completely redesign their cars, mid season, with no testing and have these 3 teams (well actually 2, because I'm not sure how Williams can't score more points with clearly a superfast car) continue to run away with the championship which would get decided with 2 more 1-2's by Brawn.

I just wonder if this is what the FIA envisioned. And how by their own decisions have pretty much shot themselves in the foot.

[555-04Q2]

I dont see how the other teams can say that they got shafted by the diffuser saga. Ross Brawn wanted to clarify the diffuser issues last year at a teams meeting with the FIA and the teams fobbed him off saying they had nothing to discuss. In true Brawn style he said, your grannies gearbox with a faulty clutch, I'm gonna go ahead with my design then. Melbourne 2009 and all of a sudden there is an uproar over the "illegal diffusers". As usual, Brawn comes out on top.

[Knock-on]

Truefan. I really cannot understand why you are adamant that teams that have sucessfully interpereted the rules should be penalised because other teams haven't done as good a job. It's wrong.

The diffusers ARE legal. Show me the regulation that they breach and I will change my mind.

Similarly, I am not sure where the evidence is that Flav submitted a diffeser that complied with the regulations. I suspect, but cannot prove it because he has not provided any evidence, that Renault submitted an aerodynamic device that didn't comply.

It is not the job of the FIA to recommend design changes but to say if something is legal or not. If Renault designed an illegal diffuser then I would hope the FIA would tell them. As it is, 3 teams got the jump because they designed a diffuser that does work. They would have incorporated this design in the design of their car and it would be wholly unjust to now ask them to redesign the whole rear end of the car to remove the diffuser because other teams are p1ssed that they didn't do it.

If the diffuser is illegal, show me where. If not, you don't have a leg to stand on.

[AndyL]

Similarly, I am not sure where the evidence is that Flav submitted a diffeser that complied with the regulations. I suspect, but cannot prove it because he has not provided any evidence, that Renault submitted an aerodynamic device that didn't comply.

That's exactly what the FIA said at the appeal, that what Renault had presented them with was not the same as what Brawn, Williams and Toyota did. Of course that's only one side of the argument, but Renault declined to provide any details beyond saying that their design was "similar".

[wedge]

If there's one thing we've learned from recent events it's that the FIA's "opinion" is worthless. It's only the stewards of the meetings who have any say on such matters. If a car passes scrutineering then it's legal.

No it isn't.

FIA banned mass dampers.

The teams, quite rightly, have the right to appeal in an area of regulations where it is ambiguous.

FIA steps when necessary. Good examples being banning BAR for running ballast even though the stewards allowed the cars to go ahead; stepping in to resolve the debacle over the shoddy stewards in the 1994 British GP who failed to successfully penalise Schumacher.

The only time the FIA's opinions were worthless in recent memory was the 2006 Italian GP where Alonso was penalised for supposedly blocking Massa. That error was so damn obvious can someone pleas remind me why the FIA sat there and did nothing overnight?

[woody2goody]

I hear you K,

but at the outset it was an issue and it was then deemed legal by a wishy washy process. The same issue was taken up before the season and at best the FIA were evasive and vague about its legality, and at worst told 2 teams outright that they were not legal. The fact that it had to go to a hearing 3 races into the season indicates the ambiguity of the DDD's and given the fact that 7 other teams managed to build cars (of which 2 were told that the DD would not pass) I suspect the issue of those 3 teams' cars legality was in clear doubt, and in my mind still is.

OK lets' give you the fact that these diffusers were barely legal. As the FIA is in (a) a cost cutting mode and (b) attempting to tighten up the competition and (c)trying to promote a better show, what would have been more logical? To tell those 3 teams to come up with single deck diffuser and allow them to keep their points so far, or to make 7 other teams spend millions to completely redesign their cars, mid season, with no testing and have these 3 teams (well actually 2, because I'm not sure how Williams can't score more points with clearly a superfast car) continue to run away with the championship which would get decided with 2 more 1-2's by Brawn.

I just wonder if this is what the FIA envisioned. And how by their own decisions have pretty much shot themselves in the foot.

I appreciate your argument but it's not about what's logical, it's about the letter of the law in regards to the sporting regulations.

I bought F1 Racing Magazine this week, and I'll quote from it:

"In the last 15 years, the court (of appeal) has met on 17 separate occasions. In that period, a team's appeal was upheld in it's entirety on just TWO occasions: in 1999 for Ferrari and it's 'illegal bargeboards', and in 2001 for Jordan, contesting Jarno Trulli's DQ in the US GP for skid-block irregularities."

The Renault mass damper affair in 2006: "Lengthy presentations were made as to how the mass damper was a device for improving the car's ride and not aerodynamic performance - although the concession was made that indeed, the system also procured a small aerodynamic advantage. That admission was the key because, although the effect was minor, it meant the part fell foul of article 3.15 of the technical regulations"

This meant that the FIA didn't have to try to disprove the earlier presentations, and instead they picked up on a tiny technical breach of the rules, and ruled on the case that way. That was a similar thing with the case with Brawn, and I quote again:

"terms like 'diffuser', 'turning vane', 'wing' or any other common piece of vocabulary aren't found in the F1 tech regs. The regulations merely refer to 'bodywork' to be shaped, and dimensioned, as a reading of the rules will allow.

And as every literature student knows, there is always a gap between the intention of the author and the interpretation of the reader. The only thing a judgment can ever be based on is the one thing that reader and author share: the text."

Reading this article interested me, because as a law student myself, it's definitely taught me a different way to interpret the law in certain situations.

It may be me but why do you think the DD is illegal.

I've looked at the rules and cannot see what legitimate claim there is for making it illegal.

Just because people think it should be illegal doesn't mean it is.

It can't be illegal anymore because Ferrari have one!

Seriously, it isn't illegal.

There were some arguments that it was, and those were legitimate arguments because the decision rested on what is a "gap" and what is a "hole" (answers on a postcard please to Charlie Whiting), but they are no longer relevant because the FIA have said several times that it was legal and they maketh the decisions so legal it is!

Anyone still claiming that the Double Diffuser is illegal is way off the mark.

[Tumbo]

I appreciate your argument but it's not about what's logical, it's about the letter of the law in regards to the sporting regulations.

And as every literature student knows, there is always a gap between the intention of the author and the interpretation of the reader. The only thing a judgment can ever be based on is the one thing that reader and author share: the text."

Reading this article interested me, because as a law student myself, it's definitely taught me a different way to interpret the law in certain situations.

Under the English system of law interpretation of statute is rather regulated, you go to the Act, where the intention is not clear you use the initial reading and the parliamentary record and failing that the actual (which 90% corresponds to the 'usual') meaning of the words.

Here of course we are looking at the FIA who as a private organisation can interpret their rules freely provided they don't breach any part of the contracts in existence between the teams, the F1 organisation and their agreements w/ third parties such as independant governments. IIRC they follow a system closer to that of EUC which is more akin to the inquisitorial system adopted in mainland Europe than the adversarial system of English colonies - makes it very difficult as codification of rules means that anything outside the specific regulations is not covered and therefore free to interpretation

[Knock-on]

It can't be illegal anymore because Ferrari have one!

Seriously, it isn't illegal.

There were some arguments that it was, and those were legitimate arguments because the decision rested on what is a "gap" and what is a "hole" (answers on a postcard please to Charlie Whiting), but they are no longer relevant because the FIA have said several times that it was legal and they maketh the decisions so legal it is!

Anyone still claiming that the Double Diffuser is illegal is way off the mark.

I appreciate what you are saying but even then, I would like to take it a bit further back.

Whether the FIA decide something is legal is sometimes decided by the direction of the wind (or colour of a car) but the fundemental arguement behind that decision is what I am talking about.

Can someone point out a regulation thet the diffusers contravene?

Renault obviously thought they would be legal otherwise wouldn't have bothered submitting one in the first place. They fell foul of a regulation and were told the design didn't comply.

The other 3 submitted a design that complied and past scruitineering.

The FIA ratified the decision because there was nothing wrong with the design wasn't there?