Webber--dirty driver and hypocrite

[markabilly]

For those who saw the "blocking moves", this kind of behavior is something he seems to engage in every so often.
It was also extremely unsafe, and contact at that speed could have sent FA into the stands or into the pit aera, especially with the right contact between the wheels, and the car would have ben flying.

Soory for the aussie, but while I have long been a fan, I have never liked the chops and blocks.
So for the record, I think a race ban would be approporiate for such behavior. The fact there was no some massive accident changes nothing :down:

And even worse, given all the talk about safety, makes him a hypocrite

[gloomyDAY]

http://haylee.steenhagen.us/photos/d/4082-2/Cry+baby_.jpg

[Dave B]

All I saw was some bloody hard racing. Quit moaning.

[EuroTroll]

Have to agree with Markabilly. I thought Webber was the dirtiest driver in F1 when he was at Jaguar. Then for a while, I thought he was ok. Today, it was Chop Webbo all over again. :down:

Edit: Otherwise a very good drive, though!

[gloomyDAY]

You people are bloody maniacal!

First you complain that there isn't enough action or overtaking and now there's too much of it. Just move on, stop penalizing drivers for racing, and let them fight it out on the track. If you want something docile go play snooker with the local boys from the pub.

[markabilly]

http://haylee.steenhagen.us/photos/d/4082-2/Cry+baby_.jpg


photo reminds me of Mark Webber, president of drivers association, giving all those lectures on safety, wanting the chinese race stopped because of the rain, and so on........
But a great self portrait, you got there gloomy,
thanks for sharing :love:

[EuroTroll]

You people are bloody maniacal!

First you complain that there isn't enough action or overtaking and now there's too much of it. Just move on, stop penalizing drivers for racing, and let them fight it out on the track. If you want something docile go play snooker with the local boys from the pub.

Err... was there overtaking then in the Alonso-Webber incident? What I saw was unfair blocking to prevent overtaking. :rolleyes:

[gloomyDAY]

Err... was there overtaking then in the Alonso-Webber incident? What I saw was unfair blocking to prevent overtaking. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Fair and clean. Don't be frightened by aggressive driving.

[EuroTroll]

:rolleyes: Fair and clean. Don't be frightened by aggressive driving.

Yeah, whatever... :rolleyes:

[F1boat]

I didn't see anything wrong with MW's driving.

[wedge]

Easily the best manoeuvre of the race.

Kimi did the exact same thing to Massa at a damp/wet Spa last year and I don't remember any complaints.

Are they men or mice? More of the same please.


And even worse, given all the talk about safety, makes him a hypocrite

Dunno where you get that information from. He was quite happy to carry on racing in Malaysia into the dark so long it wasn't monsoon conditions.

Just because he heads the the GPDA I find he's vocal of concerns but not to the same moaning level of DC.

[Roamy]

it was a bad move - no class - but legal

[markabilly]

it was a bad move - no class - but legal
"legal"--if there had been the right contact at that speed, the potential was for a serious perhaps fatal accident.
If that had happenned there would have been all sorts of investigations.
the fact that it did not, changes nothing..

and if it were legal, then someone needs to look again at the rules.

[VkmSpouge]

As far as I'm concerned that good, hard and fair racing by Mark Webber. He left just enough room for Alonso to squeeze by and then immediately went to out brake the Renault to re-take the place.

[Rollo]

Webber moved once to cover the line, Alonso went round him, then Webber came back under him. All of which was totally legal.
If there was a problem, we would have had a protest lodged, but as yet there's been zip, nada, nil and nowt.

Bear in mind that it's ME who's defending Webber. This is a rare day.

[Marshall]

Wow big fuss over nothing...all he did was move over to defend his position...its happened before and it will happen again...I'm sure all drivers would've done it.

However most driver's wouldn't have done what FA did and still argue the point. Was just some good tough racing in my view.

[donKey jote]

Alonso didn't even comment on it (as opposed to mentioning close encounters with Rosberg, Hamilton and Massa)...
if it was OK for him it's ok for me :p :
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[markabilly]

As far as I'm concerned that good, hard and fair racing by Mark Webber. He left just enough room for Alonso to squeeze by and then immediately went to out brake the Renault to re-take the place.
He did not leave any room on the track, FA was on the grass and off track. Had the pass been ultimately successful, someone would have been crying (gloomy) about an illegal pass....

and there were several moves, not just one, hence a clear violation of the rule on blockin

[wedge]

"legal"--if there had been the right contact at that speed, the potential was for a serious perhaps fatal accident.
If that had happenned there would have been all sorts of investigations.
the fact that it did not, changes nothing..

and if it were legal, then someone needs to look again at the rules.

WARNING! Motor racing is dangerous!

The drivers are aware, marshals and officials are aware and, hopefully, spectators reading warning signs and the back of their tickets should be aware.

[MrJan]

I couldn't remember what this incident was at first, didn't remember anything controversial during the race but Rollo's description jogged my memory. Top racing and in no way was it anywhere near a dangerous move. I don't like Webber that much (largely because all the Aussies seem to say that he's been unlucky etc. but then slate the Brits for using the same arguements for Button) but that was good racing :up:

[markabilly]

WARNING! Motor racing is dangerous!

.
exactly

that is why any driver who does stupid crap like this that makes it more dangerous should be thoroughly whipped by max....and i just watched my tape of the move again.
perfect violation of the rules by webber

[MrJan]

Why no thread on Piquet and Rosberg then? Nelsinho almost put Lewis in the wall off the grid and Niko fired Jarno into the gravel to create carnage on the second corner. Mark was actually racing fairly and Alonso took to the grass when he could have lifted, nothing wrong with it IMO and the fact that there have been no complaints from anyone else pretty much clarifies that.

[Dave B]

and there were several moves, not just one, hence a clear violation of the rule on blockin
One move, letting his car gently drift over towards the pitlane exit. Once Alonso passed he switched back and re-took the position. Perfectly legal and fantastic to watch.

[markabilly]

Alonso was already side by side and moved over to avoid the contact...if he had only lifted, there would have been contact, big time.
and it was not one move....

after the pass what webber did was fine.

[markabilly]

Why no thread on Piquet and Rosberg then? Nelsinho almost put Lewis in the wall off the grid and Niko fired Jarno into the gravel to create carnage on the second corner. Mark was actually racing fairly and Alonso took to the grass when he could have lifted, nothing wrong with it IMO and the fact that there have been no complaints from anyone else pretty much clarifies that.
If he had lifted, bingo crasho,
but you are right, Nelson and rico need a good whipping by max as well...whip them good

[truefan72]

I think webber's move was borderline and a bit dirty.
Anytime your racing actions cause a driver to directly go off the track by swerving into him or squeezing him to such extremes is not only unsporting but has the real danger of terrible consequences.
There is a difference between closing the door on a driver, and deliberately maneuvering to cause the driver to go off track and potentially crash. Webber's move (and PKJr as well) are more in line with the latter.

[aryan]

What are you guys smoking?

It's good, whatever it is.

It was an awesome piece of driving by both drivers. Get real.

[yodasarmpit]

I'm struggling to see what was wrong, Webber actually moved.
It's great to see some real racing on track.



I thought that after getting rid of ioan we would see less silly threads, sadly I was wrong

[EuroTroll]

What are you guys smoking?

It's good, whatever it is.

It was an awesome piece of driving by both drivers. Get real.

Marlboro Lights. ;) I don't think it clouds my judgement, though..

And "awesome", eh? :rolleyes: Kimi passing Fisi on the last lap in Suzuka was awesome. Villeneuve passing Schumacher on the outside at Estoril was awesome. This was very definitely aweless!

[Ent]

Oh my god, a car overtook another car. That is just FAR TOO DANGEROUS!!! We must outlaw all overtaking from this point on, for the good of F1! Imagine if two cars make contact?! People could get killed! From now on, after qualifying, all cars should travel in an orderly line for the duration of the race. Any and all overtaking will be deemed a breech of safety and the driver banned for life!

[EuroTroll]

:\

[woody2goody]

Alonso was already side by side and moved over to avoid the contact...if he had only lifted, there would have been contact, big time.
and it was not one move....

after the pass what webber did was fine.

He wasn't already side by side, Alonso forced his way past (a great move I might add) but he didn't need to take to the grass. In my opinion he wasn't quite alongside, and it was Alonso's decision to still try to make the pass.

Alonso took the risk and it almost paid off. Webber did what he was entitled to do and maybe Fernando should have been more aggressive under braking to defend after a great pass that he did. I would have tried to stay tight to the inside to gurantee that I wouldn't be repassed.

[Zico]

MW defended his position perfectly within the rules and FA was just so determined he kept it nailed despite going off the track and almost kept the place but for some extraordinarily late braking by MW.. real balls out stuff by both drivers, was good to watch.
If drivers didnt try and defend their positions could we really call it racing? Would you just let everyone past you? You'd get the sack after just 1 race buddy.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Webber is a fair and fast racer, hes also very good at it. he gave alonso just enough room, which was fine. But by saying they could have collided and FA could have been sent into the stands is well, just plainly obvious. Two cars collide when side by side at any time, plenty of blocking happens in F1 and any 2 could collide anywhere. But FA and MW are great racing drivers, so didnt collide. It was no more dangerous than racing side by side on any track. simples.

[Ent]

Webber and Alonso are also great friends off the track. Some people are making far too much of this. All these types of comments show is that they either hate Webber as a driver, or have absolutely no understanding of racing in F1.

[woody2goody]

Webber and Alonso are also great friends off the track. Some people are making far too much of this. All these types of comments show is that they either hate Webber as a driver, or have absolutely no understanding of racing in F1.

Thumbs up to you on that one.

Webber wouldn't try to put one of his friends in danger.

[jens]

Webber leaving little room? Reminds me Fuji '08, where Massa found only a tiny gap between Mark and the pitwall. :p :

Anyway, it seemed like Webber left too little room for Alonso indeed. Like Hamilton did at Monza'08 against Glock. One is supposed to leave room to their rival at least by a car-width on the racing circuit.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Webber leaving little room? Reminds me Fuji '08, where Massa found only a tiny gap between Mark and the pitwall. :p :

Anyway, it seemed like Webber left too little room for Alonso indeed. Like Hamilton did at Monza'08 against Glock. One is supposed to leave room to their rival at least by a car-width on the racing circuit.

I think webber did leave enough room. at that particular point when they were side-by-side, the track was wider because of the pit lane, so i think it was perfectly legitimate. I know alonso touched the grass a little (I think) but thats proper exciting racing. these are the best drivers in the world, its what they've been trained to do, and i think they both did that very well.

[BDunnell]

For those who saw the "blocking moves", this kind of behavior is something he seems to engage in every so often.
It was also extremely unsafe, and contact at that speed could have sent FA into the stands or into the pit aera, especially with the right contact between the wheels, and the car would have ben flying.

Yes, but it didn't.

Do you think Gilles Villeneuve and Arnoux were stupid at Dijon in 1979? After all, some of that hard, close racing could have ended up in a major accident. But it didn't.

[EuroTroll]

Yes, but it didn't.

Do you think Gilles Villeneuve and Arnoux were stupid at Dijon in 1979? After all, some of that hard, close racing could have ended up in a major accident. But it didn't.

I think this was nothing like Villeneuve-Arnoux at Dijon. Much more like Senna-Prost at Estoril. The incident you - and me too - cited on the Senna thread as an example of his occasional unacceptable behaviour on the track.

I also don't understand your reasoning. "Nothing happened, so it's OK"? A slightly inappropriate analogy, maybe, but is drunk driving OK if you don't have an accident?

[woody2goody]

I think this was nothing like Villeneuve-Arnoux at Dijon. Much more like Senna-Prost at Estoril. The incident you - and me too - cited on the Senna thread as an example of his occasional unacceptable behaviour on the track.

I also don't understand your reasoning. "Nothing happened, so it's OK"? A slightly inappropriate analogy, maybe, but is drunk driving OK if you don't have an accident?

From what I've seen of that race, none of that racing looked too hard on unfair.

[EuroTroll]

From what I've seen of that race, none of that racing looked too hard on unfair.

He moved to the right while Alonso was at least partly alongside. If he wanted to take the inside line, why didn't he move there while Alonso was still behind? I'll tell yer why. Because it was a typical bad-Senna, bad-Schumacher and - oh yes! - bad-Webber bully move.

[BDunnell]

I think this was nothing like Villeneuve-Arnoux at Dijon. Much more like Senna-Prost at Estoril.

I cited Dijon 1979 because quite a lot of drivers at the time thought their behaviour was disgraceful and some even felt they should have been banned.



I also don't understand your reasoning. "Nothing happened, so it's OK"? A slightly inappropriate analogy, maybe, but is drunk driving OK if you don't have an accident?

I do take your point, and could have phrased it better. However, I simply don't see what Webber did that was unacceptable. It was aggressive, but not overly so. Nor do I consider him to be a 'dirty driver'.

[veeten]

where's ozrevhead?

She needs to read this thread. ;) :p :

[SGWilko]

Just seen this thread for the first time.

errrrrrrrrr, what is all the fuss about?

It looked to me as if Webber moved over to take the defensive line, at the same time as Alonso ducked out for the move. That's just unfortunate. Alonso did not go on the grass, and Webber did not push him on the grass.

Just as F1 gets exciting, some poo poo the idea of hard racing.

Maybe we should invite Johnson & Johnson as a global F1 sponsor and wrap all the cars in cotton wool.......

tsk.

[veeten]

Maybe we should invite Johnson & Johnson as a global F1 sponsor and wrap all the cars in cotton wool.......

tsk.

or maybe used tyres, like a tugboat. ;)

Dodge 'Em cars, that's what we need in F1! :laugh:

[EuroTroll]

Just as F1 gets exciting, some poo poo the idea of hard racing.

No offence, but that's just nonsense.

Have you ever seen Kimi, for example, pull a move like that? A racer as hard as nails. But always fair.

[woody2goody]

He moved to the right while Alonso was at least partly alongside. If he wanted to take the inside line, why didn't he move there while Alonso was still behind? I'll tell yer why. Because it was a typical bad-Senna, bad-Schumacher and - oh yes! - bad-Webber bully move.

Sorry mate, but I was on about Villeneuve-Arnoux. Read the original post first :p

Alonso didn't have to try to complete the pass, but he bravely went near the wall and the grass and he did it. It was Webber's job to block Fernando off.

[big_sw2000]

No offence, but that's just nonsense.

Have you ever seen Kimi, for example, pull a move like that? A racer as hard as nails. But always fair.
Thats because hes a boring, lost all intreast in the sport little rich boy.
Oh a Ferrari fan, where did Ioan go.
Come on fo r F*CK Sake, it was an overtaking move, it was dangerous but thats motorsport.
Mabe they should change the rules, and stop overtaking altogether.
I just can not belive, that some people cry over the fact there is not enough overtaking, and then when it happens they moan.
Piquet Mansell, on the Hangers Straight Silverstone 1987 comes to mind. A great but dangerous move.
Mansell Senna, wheel to wheel inches apart, sparks flying, think that was Barcerlona as well, dangerous but great stuff.

[woody2goody]

Thats because hes a boring, lost all intreast in the sport little rich boy.
Oh a Ferrari fan, where did Ioan go.
Come on fo r F*CK Sake, it was an overtaking move, it was dangerous but thats motorsport.
Mabe they should change the rules, and stop overtaking altogether.
I just can not belive, that some people cry over the fact there is not enough overtaking, and then when it happens they moan.
Piquet Mansell, on the Hangers Straight Silverstone 1987 comes to mind. A great but dangerous move.
Mansell Senna, wheel to wheel inches apart, sparks flying, think that was Barcerlona as well, dangerous but great stuff.

Spot on. It was almost the same in some ways, but Senna and Mansell were in the middle of the track so that's ok ;)

[jens]

http://www.crankshafted.com/upload/files/14/webberkillingalonso.jpg

Well, I still think Webber left too little room! But at least he realized his mistake quickly and allowed Alonso to get back to the racing track.

[big_sw2000]

There are two people in the world, who thought this was illeagle, and wrong.
It was not Webber, or Alonso, it just happens to be two people on this forum. And belive me if it was wrong, Alonso would be first to shout

[big_sw2000]

http://www.crankshafted.com/upload/files/14/webberkillingalonso.jpg

Well, I still think Webber left too little room! But at least he realized his mistake quickly and allowed Alonso to get back to the racing track.
It was on a straight, massivly wide. Alonso did not have to put his car there.
But excellent photo

[wedge]

Have you ever seen Kimi, for example, pull a move like that?

Yes. He squeezed Massa onto the wet grass in Spa last year.

[MrJan]

It was on a straight, massivly wide. Alonso did not have to put his car there.
But excellent photo

:up: Alonso had plenty of time to lift while the track was wider but he chose to keep it nailed and take the position.

[big_sw2000]

:up: Alonso had plenty of time to lift while the track was wider but he chose to keep it nailed and take the position.
At the end of the day, thats Alonso all over, im not a fan of the his. But thats the way he drives, and f1 will be a borring place when he retaires.

[Eunos]

Yes, How dare a Driver attempt to Defend his Position!! :rolleyes:

[Valve Bounce]

Does anyone have the you-tube vid?

[Ari]

Wow.

I can't believe this is even being discussed. How ridiculous. Was the overtaking move of the race and possibly the season so far. Incredible.

He squeezed Nando for sure, but still gave him bitumen to work with. Webber would not intentionally put any drivers in harms way. Nando, to his credit, took what little space Webber gave him and made it stick. He just didn't expect Webber to have the kahunas to outbreak and overtake again.

Overtake of the race by a country mile. Isn't this what we wanted in 2009?

[CNR]

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3265_5310976,00.html


OVERTAKING MOVE OF THE RACE


Lap 6: Mark Webber, Red Bull on Fernando Alonso, Renault.
An early contender for Overtaking Move of the Season, Mark Webbers's re-take of Alonso on Lap 6 was a minor classic. As the Red Bull rushed up the inside of the Renault at Turn 1, which had just blitzed him with the KERS button, the PF1 office held its collective breath. Surely Webbo would go sailing on and Fernando would say "adios" as he ducked underneath. But no. Mark got the Red Bull stopped and turned in and kept his place in front of Alonso. Aye carumba!

[Ari]

Yes Webber was wide but Nando didn't have to stay out there. He did though, because he's a racer and good on him. After seeing where the grass started Webber gave Nando more track.

Remember, while we can take slow frame photos and analyse it now on track it all happened in a couple tenths.

Whoops my bad....
http://www.sutton-images.com/previews/d09esp1543.jpg

Here you go young man....
http://www.sutton-images.com/previews/d09esp1544.jpg

Exsqueeze me, dont mind if I just come through here do you?
http://images.gpupdate.net/large/125891.jpg

[airshifter]

Yes Webber was wide but Nando didn't have to stay out there. He did though, because he's a racer and good on him. After seeing where the grass started Webber gave Nando more track.

Remember, while we can take slow frame photos and analyse it now on track it all happened in a couple tenths.

Whoops my bad....
http://www.sutton-images.com/previews/d09esp1543.jpg

Here you go young man....
http://www.sutton-images.com/previews/d09esp1544.jpg

Exsqueeze me, dont mind if I just come through here do you?
http://images.gpupdate.net/large/125891.jpg

That sequence is worth a thousand words easily. Mark made an aggressive block, Fernando chose to stay in the gas and make the pass stick.

You can see in that sequence how Mark was changing directly once he realized Alonso was hitting the pit exit and staying in the gas.

When I first watched it I thought it was a bad move on Webbers part. In replay it became apparent that he actually gave some room to Alonso once he knew Fernando had made it inside.

[CNR]

YES that is bad racing by mark making poor alonso run across the grass :imubash: :imubash:

[Ari]

That sequence is worth a thousand words easily. Mark made an aggressive block, Fernando chose to stay in the gas and make the pass stick.

You can see in that sequence how Mark was changing directly once he realized Alonso was hitting the pit exit and staying in the gas.

When I first watched it I thought it was a bad move on Webbers part. In replay it became apparent that he actually gave some room to Alonso once he knew Fernando had made it inside.

Thank you VERY much. Spot on.

[EuroTroll]

Well, I have to say... based on the evidence presented, I have to reconsider my position somewhat.

Well done, Aussie boys, for making a good case, and also for not flipping out. :up:

Still, I don't think Webber's initial move was in any way good.

[CNR]

http://i41.tinypic.com/2me3lmo.jpg
when you look at the direction that mark's car he is giving him plenty of room

[Zico]

Wow.

I can't believe this is even being discussed. How ridiculous. Was the overtaking move of the race and possibly the season so far. Incredible.

He squeezed Nando for sure, but still gave him bitumen to work with. Webber would not intentionally put any drivers in harms way. Nando, to his credit, took what little space Webber gave him and made it stick. He just didn't expect Webber to have the kahunas to outbreak and overtake again.

Overtake of the race by a country mile. Isn't this what we wanted in 2009?

Couldn't agree more.. Some armchair 'experts' tend to forget that things like this happen in tenths of seconds.. Great racing by BOTH drivers!
Your pic sequence shows the bigger picture, how it really happened.. so clearly. Lets hope this puts a closure to what really is a silly thread.

[Valve Bounce]

I never considered Mark a dirty driver and I think this thread has all the hallmarks of hysteria brought on by over consumption of Kool Aid.

[Ari]

Couldn't agree more.. Some armchair 'experts' tend to forget that things like this happen in tenths of seconds.. Great racing by BOTH drivers!
Your pic sequence shows the bigger picture, how it really happened.. so clearly. Lets hope this puts a closure to what really is a silly thread.

Have to admit though that the pics were first posted on Mark Webber Forum. But yes it does tell a true picture.

[AJP]

It was one of the best pieces of motor racing this season...
I hit the rewind button many times watching this great bit of driving by both Fernando and Mark...
Hats off to these two for entertaining me...

[Shifter]

For those who saw the "blocking moves", this kind of behavior is something he seems to engage in every so often.
It was also extremely unsafe, and contact at that speed could have sent FA into the stands or into the pit aera, especially with the right contact between the wheels, and the car would have ben flying.

Soory for the aussie, but while I have long been a fan, I have never liked the chops and blocks.
So for the record, I think a race ban would be approporiate for such behavior. The fact there was no some massive accident changes nothing :down:

And even worse, given all the talk about safety, makes him a hypocrite


Versus has something called Indycar, perhaps you'd enjoy it more.

I'd have been calling race control if I saw this at my corner in an SCCA race. But this isn't club-level racing. This is F1, and F1 is war on four wheels.

[Roamy]

He moved to the right while Alonso was at least partly alongside. If he wanted to take the inside line, why didn't he move there while Alonso was still behind? I'll tell yer why. Because it was a typical bad-Senna, bad-Schumacher and - oh yes! - bad-Webber bully move.

this probably sums it up the best. The problem is that webber moved over on his as he was passing. It is a dirty and dangerous move. But a legal move or F1 would have banned or penalized him. If you want to move over to protect a line do it when the other car is behind. you keep doing this sh!t and one day a car will brake with the front tire inside your rear and you will be launched.

[markabilly]

this probably sums it up the best. The problem is that webber moved over on his as he was passing. It is a dirty and dangerous move. But a legal move or F1 would have banned or penalized him. If you want to move over to protect a line do it when the other car is behind. you keep doing this sh!t and one day a car will brake with the front tire inside your rear and you will be launched.
Yes, there is some common sense around here, so it seems and an excellent point.

meanwhile the webber fanboys go so far as to post pictures when the real dangerous part of the block was already over, except for the part where Freddie ends up on the grass....which of course, they choose NOT to show--Note Webber's front wheels, pointed towards cutting off Freddie--and if wheel contact occurred and launched the car, the flagman is in a perfect position to catch freeddie in his lap...soo sooorrrey boys, webber is a dirty driver....(and this photo was taken after the initial block that nearly put FA into the pitwall and forced him across the pitlane--which is what I was talking about---dudhhh)
http://www.crankshafted.com/upload/files/14/webberkillingalonso.jpg
If you really want to make passing frequently happen, then sorry crap like this should be banned, because it discourages passing by making it even more dangerous where a driver can cut you off with no where to go, except off track or collide with the other car.

In the old days, when real men drove F1, as in the 50-70's, (not the silly candy ass kids like Webber) the situation was way too dangerous and the drivers policed themselves.

The rule was simple: car in front must maintain racing line, no sudden blocks.if the car comes up on the inside as the cars go into the corner, the car in front must yield and permit room for the pass.

[Rollo]

I never considered Mark a dirty driver and I think this thread has all the hallmarks of hysteria brought on by over consumption of Kool Aid.

The real reason for this is that Mark Webber has a Union Jack in the corner of his nation's flag (therefore he is British). Hating the British is morally acceptable around here, we already established that quite some time ago ;)

[big_sw2000]

Like i said, if there was a problem with the pass, Alonso, or Freedie as some like to call him, would be 1st to complain.
Maybe some people like boring F1 with no overtaking.

[Donney]

Alonso didn't even comment on it (as opposed to mentioning close encounters with Rosberg, Hamilton and Massa)...
if it was OK for him it's ok for me :p :
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif


I'm with the donkey here, and I didn't even remember this piece of action before reading this thread.

They fought for position, I'm all for it.

[leopard]

Webber's move was a bit out of kilter, whether this far Webber has never been in situation that enable him to move that way, it looks like maneuver unusual for him. In many races Vettel outperforms him might have promoted him to drive more defensive.

Alonso was fairly strong at the starts, after that incident he drove gradually slower down. It's probably the engine he can't have more power to drive faster, but considering suspension and electrical device are something fragile that incident could give him disadvantage.

[leopard]

I'm with the donkey here, and I didn't even remember this piece of action before reading this thread.

They fought for position, I'm all for it.

I think he will encounter it with protest if only they fought for first position, else he might be worried of people being tired to listen to his complaint. ;)

[RJL25]

With fans like these, is it any wonder many say that F1 is boring... you see some high quality racing between two drivers who don't give an inch, absolutely epic stuff, and you lot are having the worlds biggest cry because oh its all too aggressive!

Maybe the FIA have it all wrong, they should be concentrating on making it HARDER for the cars to overtake as that is clearly what some of you want.

Mark knew that if Alonso got past his race was stuffed, so he had a big go to try and hold the position, just as Alonso was having a big go to try and take the position. One driver won, the other didn't, its called motor racing! This is serious high stakes stuff fellahs! Its not a bloody tea party, bloody hell....

[EuroTroll]

Maybe the FIA have it all wrong, they should be concentrating on making it HARDER for the cars to overtake as that is clearly what some of you want.


Curiously, this drum is still banged on this thread. Endlessly.

You guys do know that blocking hinders overtaking, right? Is an enemy of overtaking. Is a... you know. What kryptonite is to Superman, blocking is to overtaking.

Without such choppy-choppies being tolerated, overtaking would be easier. As in, not as difficult. As in... you know?

And Rollo - well done fellow, you've nailed it! :crazy: :laugh:

[SGWilko]

http://www.crankshafted.com/upload/files/14/webberkillingalonso.jpg

Well, I still think Webber left too little room! But at least he realized his mistake quickly and allowed Alonso to get back to the racing track.

Darn it - I stand corrected. Now, where is my sword...... ;)

[millencolin]

Ok, forgive me for being a bit late, due to the fact that as soon I finish watching a race, i go to sleep then straight to work next morning...

But you call that dirty driving? I call that BLOODY EXCITING! and not just because I'm an Aussie, i mean he was overtaken then took that spot back in a few hundred metres! This is what f1 needs MORE of, if it wasnt for that, the race would be boring as bat****.

[Knock-on]

I saw great driving.

If this was dirty, then bring on the filth.

[EuroTroll]

Ok, forgive me for being a bit late, due to the fact that as soon I finish watching a race, i go to sleep then straight to work next morning...

But you call that dirty driving? I call that BLOODY EXCITING! and not just because I'm an Aussie, i mean he was overtaken then took that spot back in a few hundred metres! This is what f1 needs MORE of, if it wasnt for that, the race would be boring as bat****.

Ok, but imagine this...

In a parallel universe, an F1 race is held. Now, things are a bit different there. Catalunya is part of the Portuguese Empire. But the track is the same and the beginning of the race unfolds in exactly the same way. And then, Alonso comes up behind Webber...

Now, Alonso is slip-streaming. Webber sees him getting closer, and at just the right moment - while Alonso is still behind - moves to the right to claim the inside line into the first corner in the name of the Kiwi Empire (whom he represents, West-side!). Alonso moves with him and gets back into the slip-stream. Closer, closer, closer. Alonso then pulls a hard left to take the outside line, and gets ahead. Alonso brakes for the corner - but Webber dives inside and brakes much later. Webber retakes the position. The Kiwis celebrate. The Portuguese curse. And everybody else is just happy because they've seen a wonderful bit of clean hard racing.

D'you get my drift? ;)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

With fans like these, is it any wonder many say that F1 is boring... you see some high quality racing between two drivers who don't give an inch, absolutely epic stuff, and you lot are having the worlds biggest cry because oh its all too aggressive!

Maybe the FIA have it all wrong, they should be concentrating on making it HARDER for the cars to overtake as that is clearly what some of you want.

Mark knew that if Alonso got past his race was stuffed, so he had a big go to try and hold the position, just as Alonso was having a big go to try and take the position. One driver won, the other didn't, its called motor racing! This is serious high stakes stuff fellahs! Its not a bloody tea party, bloody hell....

I can't agree more! :up:

People who call themselves 'fans' don't like exciting racing! I bet Markasilly thinks Mansell passing Senna in Spain when he was trying to squeeze Senna out was dangerous. :rolleyes:

I can't watch exciting F1 racing like Webber versus Alonso without getting sexually aroused. We want more racing like this, not less.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/facepalm.jpg

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Curiously, this drum is still banged on this thread. Endlessly.

You guys do know that blocking hinders overtaking, right? Is an enemy of overtaking. Is a... you know. What kryptonite is to Superman, blocking is to overtaking.

Without such choppy-choppies being tolerated, overtaking would be easier. As in, not as difficult. As in... you know?

And Rollo - well done fellow, you've nailed it! :crazy: :laugh:

Defensive driving is just as exciting to watch overtaking.

Imagine watching a football match in which one team doesn't have a defence. Sure there would be lots of goals, but it would be boring after 5 minutes. It would be like watching Basketball, and who wants that? :p

[EuroTroll]

Defensive driving is just as exciting to watch overtaking.

Imagine watching a football match in which one team doesn't have a defence. Sure there would be lots of goals, but it would be boring after 5 minutes. It would be like watching Basketball, and who wants that? :p

Yes, of course.

I just hate chopping. You know? Moves done with the attitude of "We're alongside, so I'm gonna veer into you. Feeling lucky today, punk?"

There's no skill in that. No elaborate thought. It's just bullying.

The majority of you obviously think that's ok. I don't. One of them "differences of opinion", I guess.

[Blancvino]

:rolleyes: Fair and clean. Don't be frightened by aggressive driving.

Forcing him to the grass through pit exit is not aggressive, it's blocking!

[leopard]

Its funny how this move wasn't even discussed by the drivers post race and not a single complaint has been raised. Alonso himself has not expressed any anger over the incident, and the fact he kept full throttle shows he is a true racer through and through.


He's passed anger management course, it sent forth fresh water and ruled out the bitter one, keep cool keep driving.

[EuroTroll]

He's passed anger management course, it sent forth fresh water and ruled out the bitter one, keep cool keep driving.

I just have to say it, mate. About 90% of the time, I have no idea what you're talking about. Is it some kind of code? :)

[stevie_gerrard]

A super move. Yeh there was a risk when Alonso was forced to overtake him on the grass, cause he could have caused a serious accident, but for me, Alonso wouldnt have taken that risk if he didnt think he could pull it off. Mark did ever so well to get the place back as well.

[EuroTroll]

I just have to say it, mate. About 90% of the time, I have no idea what you're talking about. Is it some kind of code? :)

I exaggerate. Read some of your other posts in other threads - they make sense. So let's replace "about 90% of the time" with "at times". :)

[EuroTroll]

Mark did ever so well to get the place back as well.

For the record, I don't think anyone is denying that.

[ShiftingGears]

It was spectacular driving on both drivers behalf. End of story.

[EuroTroll]

It was spectacular driving on both drivers behalf. End of story.

You forgot to add "nuff said" and "case closed". ;) Oh yeah, and "fact!". :p :

[ShiftingGears]

You forgot to add "nuff said" and "case closed". ;) Oh yeah, and "fact!". :p :

:laugh:

Yeah, I gotta work on that.

[wedge]

In the old days, when real men drove F1, as in the 50-70's, (not the silly candy ass kids like Webber) the situation was way too dangerous and the drivers policed themselves.


This is 2009.

Stirling Moss is quite happy to move with the times.

Go join JYS in 1960s timewarp.


You guys do know that blocking hinders overtaking, right? Is an enemy of overtaking. Is a... you know. What kryptonite is to Superman, blocking is to overtaking.

Without such choppy-choppies being tolerated, overtaking would be easier. As in, not as difficult. As in... you know?


You're missing the point. It's not just overtaking fans crave, its close racing.

Blocking is racing. The guy infront has every right to defend his position just as the guy behind has every right to attack.

[markabilly]

Okay, this time it is Webber trying to pass Fred or pass MS. MS or fred does the chops back and forth on Webber or Button, (which is what I am talking about--I should try to figure out how to upload the tv video of the first part)

Anyway much screeching, whining and tears would pop all over the place around here.

all you "fans" fuss all the time about MS and his driving.....

The fact there was not contact, changes nothing.

All such blocking does, is to discourge passing
and blocking is NOT racing that permits passing........

[MrJan]

Mark you chuffing plum :p : I have a really strong dislike for Webber, he comes across as a whingy, smarmy b****** and the worse he does, the harder I laugh. However you have to be a complete numpty to argue that the pass was dangerous. Get up some genuine footage of the race (as opposed to one photo which shows nothing conclusive) and people might start to agree with you. However I doubt that a) you will bother (because you are wrong) and b) people will agree anyway (because you are wrong)

[EuroTroll]

Here's a question. Why on earth is Senna heavily criticized for this, then:

yjfwRrvtlNw

Please, tell. I really want to know!

[wedge]

Because Prost cried like a baby:

"If he's that desperate to win the championship then he can have it"

[EuroTroll]

Because Prost cried like a baby:

"If he's that desperate to win the championship then he can have it"

I don't think Prost's crying in 1988 can affect opinions now. And yet, to this day, that incident is cited as a prime example of Senna's unacceptable behaviour, by F1 journalists (like Nigel Roebuck) and forumers alike.

And Senna himself later apologized to Prost for doing that. He never apologized for Suzuka '90, but he apologized for that.

[woody2goody]

Yes, of course.

I just hate chopping. You know? Moves done with the attitude of "We're alongside, so I'm gonna veer into you. Feeling lucky today, punk?"

There's no skill in that. No elaborate thought. It's just bullying.

The majority of you obviously think that's ok. I don't. One of them "differences of opinion", I guess.

He wasn't even alongside him when Webber moved over.

Nobody has even mentioned the fact that Alonso had KERS, so he would have blasted past Webber quicker than the Aussie expected.

[woody2goody]

I don't think Prost's crying in 1988 can affect opinions now. And yet, to this day, that incident is cited as a prime example of Senna's unacceptable behaviour, by F1 journalists (like Nigel Roebuck) and forumers alike.

And Senna himself later apologized to Prost for doing that. He never apologized for Suzuka '90, but he apologized for that.

Nothing wrong with that move to be honest he tried to squeeze him but not too much to be honest. I don't think Webber tried to squeeze Alonso, because I don't think he even thought he would try it down the right hand side.

IIRC Michael Schumacher's squeeze of Ralf at the (Nurburgring?) was worse. They didn't speak for a few weeks after that I don't think.

The worst one of all was Schumi on Alonso in Britain 2003 (maybe 04 not sure)

[Ent]

I'm sick of all this stupid argument about blocking and chopping, especially since there was none of either of those things. It was a great overtaking move by Alonso and nothing more.

As words wont convince people, I've had to grab screen images from the video and paste them together...

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1403/passalonso.jpg

The only thing Webber was guilty of was being passed by Alonso in one of the best passes of the season so far.

[EuroTroll]

(Never mind.)

[wedge]

I don't think Prost's crying in 1988 can affect opinions now. And yet, to this day, that incident is cited as a prime example of Senna's unacceptable behaviour, by F1 journalists (like Nigel Roebuck) and forumers alike.

And Senna himself later apologized to Prost for doing that. He never apologized for Suzuka '90, but he apologized for that.

Schumi did the exact same thing to his own brother at the Nurburgring 2003(??) and I had no problems with it whatsoever likewise the infamous Schumacher startline chop I had no problems with.

Some people have certain standards and limits but the likes of Alonso, Gilles, Senna, Mansell, Hamilton, Schumi, JPM, etc, etc are racers and they are willing to push those limits.

[EuroTroll]

Nobody has even mentioned the fact that Alonso had KERS, so he would have blasted past Webber quicker than the Aussie expected.

Did he? I seem to remember that only McLaren and Ferrari used KERS in Barcelona. And even if that weren't the case, would Webber not have known about it? :erm:


Nothing wrong with that move to be honest he tried to squeeze him but not too much to be honest.

Well, a lot of other people certainly found fault with it. Real experts, too.



I don't think Webber tried to squeeze Alonso, because I don't think he even thought he would try it down the right hand side.

Ah. So he veered to the right just to let Alonso by on the left?

[Rollo]

Webber moved once to cover the line, Alonso went round him, then Webber came back under him. All of which was totally legal.
If there was a problem, we would have had a protest lodged, but as yet there's been zip, nada, nil and nowt.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1403/passalonso.jpg
- Box ticked

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... lterations (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/AAE9C10693C293F7C12575AF004512DC/$FILE/1-2009%20F1%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%20(Showing%20Al terations))%2024-03-2009.pdf

Article 16.1
"Incident" means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any action by any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the stewards and referred to the race director for investigation) which :
- forced a driver off the track ;

There as yet has been no "Incident" noted, and none reported to the race stewards by the race director - it is safe to assume that there is no incident.
It doesn't look like a duck, walk like a duck or quack like a duck.

IT'S NOT A DUCK

[EuroTroll]

Schumi did the exact same thing to his own brother at the Nurburgring 2003(??) and I had no problems with it whatsoever likewise the infamous Schumacher startline chop I had no problems with.

If that is the case, my good fellow, then you just don't have standards!

Let me make this point again: Senna, the hardest of them all, eventually came to the conclusion that what he did at Estoril '88 was wrong.

[Ent]

Ah. So he veered to the right just to let Alonso by on the left?

Did you not even look at the picture I posted? Alonso was in his slipstream and he moved to the right to protect the inside line. There was no "veering" at all. Look at how quickly Alonso moved to the right when he jumped out of Webber's slipstream. That was "veering". Webber's move to the right is slow and orderly in comparison.

These protests are now starting to border on trolling.

[EuroTroll]

Did you not even look at the picture I posted? Alonso was in his slipstream and he moved to the right to protect the inside line. There was no "veering" at all. Look at how quickly Alonso moved to the right when he jumped out of Webber's slipstream. That was "veering". Webber's move to the right is slow and orderly in comparison.

Do forgive me. English is not my first language, so sometimes I don't use words in quite the right way.

I should have said, in a sarcastic response to woody2goody, "Ah. So he moved to the right just to let Alonso by on the left?"

And if this discussion annoys you, feel free to not participate. ;)

[CNR]

I'm sick of all this stupid argument about blocking and chopping, especially since there was none of either of those things. It was a great overtaking move by Alonso and nothing more.

As words wont convince people, I've had to grab screen images from the video and paste them together...

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1403/passalonso.jpg

The only thing Webber was guilty of was being passed by Alonso in one of the best passes of the season so far.
Q: can you cut the pit lane like that before the pit lane bland line would have been nice if some one was coming ot of pit lane ?
Alonso cut the pit lane be for the white line
Japan - Massa crosses over white line and leaves the marked track, driving into pit exit, while passing Webber, no penalty

[Gibbsy]

I cant believe people are complaining about blocking.

I remember champ car (and probably indy car now) had a no blocking rule and it makes the racing boring as hell. Taking a place comes down to just pressing your i win (push2pass) button and not out breaking yourself. Wheres the fun or excitement in that?

Leave silly no blocking rules to crap yank racing and let the real drivers of formula 1 actually race.

[big_sw2000]

Forcing him to the grass through pit exit is not aggressive, it's blocking!
Alonso had time to back off, he chose to run on the grass, thats brave.

[wedge]

If that is the case, my good fellow, then you just don't have standards!

Let me make this point again: Senna, the hardest of them all, eventually came to the conclusion that what he did at Estoril '88 was wrong.

Did he really apologise for that? That was never Senna's style!

ko94oniszuA

I do have standards. I feel what Senna did in Japan 1990 was wrong and so too Schumi at Jerez 1997.

[EuroTroll]

Did he really apologise for that? That was never Senna's style!

Yeah, I read it ages ago from an interview with Prost.

And it not being his style is part of my point. I mean, Senna almost always thought he was right, even when noone else did. But Estoril '88 was, I guess, something he couldn't justify to himself, on reflection.

Going for gaps, racing hard - I've no problem with that! Really. Why on earth would I?! I'm a fan too. I just feel that Webber-Alonso at Barca was the same as Senna-Prost at Estoril. Just a bully move. Which I think shouldn't be a part of F1. And I say this as one of the biggest Senna fans.

[ShiftingGears]

Here's a question. Why on earth is Senna heavily criticized for this, then:

yjfwRrvtlNw

Please, tell. I really want to know!

Because before Senna there weren't drivers who regularly swerved to defend their positions.

[EuroTroll]

Because before Senna there weren't drivers who regularly swerved to defend their positions.

So are you saying that because Webber wasn't the first one to do it, it's ok?

[Ent]

Alonso had time to back off, he chose to run on the grass, thats brave.

I think that's the point some people here are missing. It was a brilliant overtaking move by Alonso. He has a history of it. Didn't he overtake someone on the outside of 130R at Suzuka? He's a great driver to watch when he goes for the overtaking in those half gaps most drivers back away from. It also shows the faith the top drivers have in the driver they are overtaking, to see them coming from an unexpected place, as was the case here. Big thumbs up to Alonso.

[EuroTroll]

I think that's the point some people here are missing. It was a brilliant overtaking move by Alonso. He has a history of it. Didn't he overtake someone on the outside of 130R at Suzuka? He's a great driver to watch when he goes for the overtaking in those half gaps most drivers back away from. It also shows the faith the top drivers have in the driver they are overtaking, to see them coming from an unexpected place, as was the case here. Big thumbs up to Alonso.

Big thumbs up to Alonso, indeed!

Don't think anyone has criticized him here, though, so I don't really get what your point is here.

[ShiftingGears]

So are you saying that because Webber wasn't the first one to do it, it's ok?

I could see why people would've had a beef with what Senna did in the 80's, because many liked how F1 was before Senna. Hell, some found driving defensively detestible in the 1930's, as it held up faster cars. See the 1937 Italian Grand Prix - Rosemeyer didn't like Caracciola driving in such a way as to make passing difficult.

I think it's okay, yes. Webber cut it fine, and I am sure he didn't intend for Alonso to get a wheel on the grass.

[555-04Q2]

I cant believe people are complaining about blocking.

Neither can I...I though we wanted racing people. This is racing!!!

[Knock-on]

I think the Senna one was strange at the time because it was so rare.

We had a lot of blocking from Schumy when he would swerve left and right with gay abandon. Then the FIA was forced to bring in the infamouse "1 change of direction" rule which is what Webber did.

I cannot see anything wrong with the move and think both drivers were committed.

[Ent]

Big thumbs up to Alonso, indeed!

Don't think anyone has criticized him here, though, so I don't really get what your point is here.

The point being that lap after lap, cars who have another car right on their tail on the main straight move to the right to defend their line. In that respect this case was no different. Normally the following car would then try to dart down the outside and try and take the position around the outside of the first corner. The only thing that made this move different was Alonso didn't do the expect thing and drove sheer around the inside of Webber, using all of the track and a little more.

The reason why the move looked so spectacular was due to Alonso's bravery and great driving. People seem so hung up on "blocking" that never happened, that they are undervaluing Alonso's role in all of this.

[EuroTroll]

The point being that lap after lap, cars who have another car right on their tail on the main straight move to the right to defend their line. In that respect this case was no different. Normally the following car would then try to dart down the outside and try and take the position around the outside of the first corner. The only thing that made this move different was Alonso didn't do the expect thing and drove sheer around the inside of Webber, using all of the track and a little more.

The reason why the move looked so spectacular was due to Alonso's bravery and great driving. People seem so hung up on "blocking" that never happened, that they are undervaluing Alonso's role in all of this.

The way I see it is this.

If you divide the entry to the first corner into three racing lines - the outside, the middle and the inside - then I would have had no problem whatsoever if Webber had moved to the middle, leaving Alonso a choice of either outside or inside. If you go back to your own photo, you see that this is what initially happens. Webber moves to the middle, and Alonso - perhaps indeed, as you suggest, to Webber's surprise - chose the inside line, not the outside. If they had come like this into the first corner - side by side -, Webber would still have had an advantage, because the inside line is dirty and Alonso would have had to brake earlier anyway, because the corner would have been way tighter for him.

What happened instead?

Webber moved from the middle to the inside, pushing Alonso - who was alongside - to the grass. Why? Because Webber realized that they were not going to come side by side to the corner. Alonso would have been significantly ahead. So his only choice, at that point, to keep position was to push him out - get him to lift off. And that's what he tried. And this, in my opinion, is anything but fair racing. It's bullying. "Lift off or else."

Well, Alonso didn't lift, and snaked through anyway. Super! And Webber then got the corner anyway, by outbraking Alonso, which was also super.

But that doesn't change my opinion that Webber's initial move was unfair, unsporting.

[big_sw2000]

The way I see it is this.

If you divide the entry to the first corner into three racing lines - the outside, the middle and the inside - then I would have had no problem whatsoever if Webber had moved to the middle, leaving Alonso a choice of either outside or inside. If you go back to your own photo, you see that this is what initially happens. Webber moves to the middle, and Alonso - perhaps indeed, as you suggest, to Webber's surprise - chose the inside line, not the outside. If they had come like this into the first corner - side by side -, Webber would still have had an advantage, because the inside line is dirty and Alonso would have had to brake earlier anyway, because the corner would have been way tighter for him.

What happened instead?

Webber moved from the middle to the inside, pushing Alonso - who was alongside - to the grass. Why? Because Webber realized that they were not going to come side by side to the corner. Alonso would have been significantly ahead. So his only choice, at that point, to keep position was to push him out - get him to lift off. And that's what he tried. And this, in my opinion, is anything but fair racing. It's bullying. "Lift off or else."

Well, Alonso didn't lift, and snaked through anyway. Super! And Webber then got the corner anyway, by outbraking Alonso, which was also super.

But that doesn't change my opinion that Webber's initial move was unfair, unsporting.
Do you agree it was exciting, and F1 needs more of it.

[EuroTroll]

Do you agree it was exciting, and F1 needs more of it.

Haven't I made it clear that I really dislike that sort of thing? :) No, I don't think F1 needs that. Exciting in a perverse way though it may be. :)

[SGWilko]

Haven't I made it clear that I really dislike that sort of thing? :) No, I don't think F1 needs that. Exciting in a perverse way though it may be. :)

If I am honest, I think you are digging a hole....

....and it keeps getting bigger.

It was a case of Webber moving to protect his position. Alonso had committed to take the pit side of the track, and was darn sure he was going to make it stick.

I think this is a clear case of no case to answer.

[Bagwan]

There were only inches to spare , but Mark left him just enough room .

Fernando was committed , knowing Mark would relent if he was along side .

Classic gun fight .

Inches farther , and Mark would have been a real dick , as Fernando would have been even farther onto the grass .
Being on the grass was Fernando's idea , obvious from the screen shot of Fernando there gardening , because there is enough room to have his wheels on the white line , with Mark where he was .
He was very close to the dangerous line , but within the limits of how hard you can expect a competitor to race .

Some have given props to Alonso for being brave , and well deserved , but Mark should also be given his , because he raced hard but fair .
They both had to trust each other completely , and expect each other to race to the limit , but not over .

All in all , a beautiful pass , hard won .

[woody2goody]

Did he? I seem to remember that only McLaren and Ferrari used KERS in Barcelona. And even if that weren't the case, would Webber not have known about it? :erm:

I'm pretty sure Alonso had KERS. They said it on the BBC broadcast. Both DC and Brundle mentioned it.


Well, a lot of other people certainly found fault with it. Real experts, too.

If you can find me proof then I'll entertain the idea ;)


Ah. So he veered to the right just to let Alonso by on the left?

Alonso could have gone to the left could he not?

[EuroTroll]

I'm pretty sure Alonso had KERS. They said it on the BBC broadcast. Both DC and Brundle mentioned it.

Yes, I also just read that he did. Nevertheless, Webber knew he had it, didn't he.. Not that it matters much to the argument.


If you can find me proof then I'll entertain the idea ;)

You want proof that Senna was/is widely condemned for Estoril '88?? My dear fellow, do some reading. ;) The proof is... everywhere! :)



Alonso could have gone to the left could he not?

Yes. I was needlessly sarcastic towards you regarding that point. Sorry.

As to the squeezing, I disagree. But I guess that's pretty clear by now. :)

[EuroTroll]

Studiose I don't think the people you are arguing with are ever going to agree with you or vice versa... We all seem to be going round in circles just repeating the same points in a different way in the vain hope that someone is going to give..The chap who originally posted the thread hasn't contributed for a long while so he's either changed his mind or can't be bothered?

In reality I think it was an excellent move by Webber, but I really don't care whether anyone else agree with me or not, as its all down to opinion... :o

Yes, I guess you're right. :) But then, when has a forum debate ever ended with one side putting their hands up and saying, "You're right, we were wrong." :) We argue for the sake of arguing. It's pointless, but it's fun. :) And positions which start out as something vague based on emotions end up being much clearer and, hopefully, reasoned. Which is good.

But yes. The well does seem to be somewhat exhausted now. I for one don't have anything significant to add to what I've already written. So...

[woody2goody]

You want proof that Senna was/is widely condemned for Estoril '88?? My dear fellow, do some reading. ;) The proof is... everywhere! :)

I still thought you meant the Webber incident. My bad :D

I'm still surprised Senna was so criticised for his manoeuvre.

[woody2goody]

I think that's the point some people here are missing. It was a brilliant overtaking move by Alonso. He has a history of it. Didn't he overtake someone on the outside of 130R at Suzuka?

M Schumacher. Twice in the same race in 2005!

[EuroTroll]

Indeed its fun for a while I will agree This topic has attracted opinions which are overwhelmingly against yours so I would have hated for this to turn into some kind of Zulu war where you are hidiously out numbered LOL... I respect the fact that you have stood up for your opinion for this long however... thumbs up mate

Hehe, thanks! I must admit it did feel very lonely at one point, and I almost caved at one time, at around post #66. But then much-needed reinforcements arrived in the form of Markabilly and especially Fousto, and after that it was much easier. :) -> :D -> :laugh:

Oh dear God, we must find something better to do with our time! :laugh:

I have to say, though, that never did I think I was trolling, as Ent suggested. I really don't like what Webber did. I know it's not a popular opinion, but it's mine. ;)

[jens]

I understand studiose's reasoning well and it has fair arguments. But I think the reason, why people aren't "against" that move is that Webber realized his 'mistake' quickly and moved quickly back to left. And secondly we didn't have any dramas due to that move - Alonso managed to complete his manouvre properly. It was different with Schumacher vs Frentzen at Montreal in '98 for example. Schumacher didn't leave enough room for Frentzen on the track and HHF spun off as a result - hence everyone was furious. Consequences are what tend to make up people's minds.

[yodasarmpit]

FFS, Webber moved first, as shown clearly in the screen grabs posted further back there was no blocking.
Alonso just decided to overtake regardless, and did so brilliantly.

[big_sw2000]

Hehe, thanks! I must admit it did feel very lonely at one point, and I almost caved at one time, at around post #66. But then much-needed reinforcements arrived in the form of Markabilly and especially Fousto, and after that it was much easier. :) -> :D -> :laugh:

Oh dear God, we must find something better to do with our time! :laugh:

I have to say, though, that never did I think I was trolling, as Ent suggested. I really don't like what Webber did. I know it's not a popular opinion, but it's mine. ;)
Yes i agree, its gone to far know, ive been getting very argumentive, sorry to any one i offended (Studiose). But its 2 diffrent views, which we will stick with to the death. So there. WE ARE ALL RIGHT. I think.

[EuroTroll]

Yes i agree, its gone to far know, ive been getting very argumentive, sorry to any one i offended (Studiose). But its 2 diffrent views, which we will stick with to the death. So there. WE ARE ALL RIGHT. I think.

Of course. ;) No complaints at all! It was spirited, but it never got nasty. :up:

[Garry Walker]

Great move by Webber, he defended his position really hard, but it was a very fair move.
I really dont understand the bitching.

[big_sw2000]

Great move by Webber, he defended his position really hard, but it was a very fair move.
I really dont understand the bitching.
What bitching, no bitching here, we are all friends now :)

[CNR]

some of you are going to far it will blow up in your face
i will make sure of it

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/09/16/four-of-f1s-unwritten-rules-video/

now show me the lewis thread for this one
http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x6rp0t

[truefan72]

your kidding right?

did you see lewis turn his wheel to cut off the road
or did you see webber come up to be side by side then turn "his wheel" into hamilton before correcting

come on now

a better example was the hamilton glock incident that same race which i do think was rather borderline by Hamilton

[Roamy]

The question whether the move is legal or not will leave someone "dead" right if they keep on.

[PSfan]

Guess 150 posts, time for me to join the fun...

How people can defend the in-defense able always amazes me. How can anybody suggest it wasn't a dirty move? where was Webber going, to get a better view of a fan or something? maybe there is a Tim Hortons drive-through at pit exit?


some of you are going to far it will blow up in your face
i will make sure of it

Aren't we a little beyond hollow threats?


http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/09/1...n-rules-video/

Thanks thunderbolt, just enough in there to hang yourself:

Unwritten rule 4: A defending driver may move off-line once to defend his position and then move back to his original line on the way into a corner, but cannot push a rival on that line off the track

Now I really hate it when Hobbs is right over on speedtv, but he did comment that Webber had made 2 moves, which is almost impossible to see with out watching the move frame by frame. But Webber did pause his momentum going towards pit side of the track (even if for only some 3 frames on my dvd players frame advance) but enough to run afoul of this "un-written rule"

Edit: I Believe the unwritten rule is in regards to only 1 move to defend a position. the author of that story added more to make it fit his story. Either way, allowed 1 move to defend, Webber made 2...


now show me the lewis thread for this one
http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/x6rp0t

wasn't the clip in the your first link good enough? Wanna know why that clip his hardly comparable? First, we are talking a dispute going into a corner, the "un-written" rule concerning this is... the driver ahead gets the racing line. Now did you notice it was a drying track? So we can clearly see Hamilton following the dry racing line. and with Webber on the wetter part of the track, its equally likely that Webber had some control issues as well.

Now to dig up a link to the thread about someone pushing Massa towards pit wall... remember the outrage... Massa was almost over the white lines!!! PENALTY!!! :p :

[PSfan]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/09/1...n-rules-video/
wasn't the clip in the your first link good enough? Wanna know why that clip his hardly comparable? First, we are talking a dispute going into a corner, the "un-written" rule concerning this is... the driver ahead gets the racing line. Now did you notice it was a drying track? So we can clearly see Hamilton following the dry racing line. and with Webber on the wetter part of the track, its equally likely that Webber had some control issues as well.


Ok, was that a wet track, or just a really crappy video? now I'm not so sure, which race was that from, maybe I might have it on dvd... :p :

[CNR]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,25466194-23770,00.html


Fernando had a run on me down the pit straight.
I tried to force him to my outside, but he dived into the pit lane exit - and onto the grass - on my inner and was through.
I knew that I had to re-pass him immediately, otherwise my race would be ruined, so I outbraked him five seconds later into turn one. It was a good move and, crucially, it ensured that I was in free air for the opening stint of the race.

[Valve Bounce]

Hehe, thanks! I must admit it did feel very lonely at one point, and I almost caved at one time, at around post #66. But then much-needed reinforcements arrived in the form of Markabilly and especially Fousto, and after that it was much easier.
Oh dear God, we must find something better to do with our time! :laugh:

I have to say, though, that never did I think I was trolling, as Ent suggested. I really don't like what Webber did. I know it's not a popular opinion, but it's mine. ;)



Man!! if you are relying on markabilly and fousto as reinforcements, then you are in deep poo poo. You will get the George Custer feeling very soon. :p :

[Ari]

There were only inches to spare , but Mark left him just enough room .

Fernando was committed , knowing Mark would relent if he was along side .

Classic gun fight .

Inches farther , and Mark would have been a real dick , as Fernando would have been even farther onto the grass .
Being on the grass was Fernando's idea , obvious from the screen shot of Fernando there gardening , because there is enough room to have his wheels on the white line , with Mark where he was .
He was very close to the dangerous line , but within the limits of how hard you can expect a competitor to race .

Some have given props to Alonso for being brave , and well deserved , but Mark should also be given his , because he raced hard but fair .
They both had to trust each other completely , and expect each other to race to the limit , but not over .

All in all , a beautiful pass , hard won .

Interesting you should say that. Because from my calculations there were 66.5 cm's between the two cars in which Nando had to play with. More than enough space for him to not be on the grass.

Good on Nando for staying with it and good on Webber for giving him space in the end. Nando was on the grass for only a second. Probably because he hadn't anticipated Webber giving him road back.

This thread should be closed. It's embarrassing.

[Ari]

You want proof that Senna was/is widely condemned for Estoril '88?? My dear fellow, do some reading. ;) The proof is... everywhere! :)

It's hilarious that you're using an incident from 20 years ago to justify your thoughts today. Actually is proof in case that your concept is bizarre.

In 1988 the US President was Ronald Reagen. Nuff said.

[Ari]

I know it's not a popular opinion, but it's mine. ;)


Kudos to that....

[Ari]

Guess 150 posts, time for me to join the fun...

How people can defend the in-defense able always amazes me. How can anybody suggest it wasn't a dirty move? where was Webber going, to get a better view of a fan or something? maybe there is a Tim Hortons drive-through at pit exit?



Aren't we a little beyond hollow threats?



Thanks thunderbolt, just enough in there to hang yourself:

Unwritten rule 4: A defending driver may move off-line once to defend his position and then move back to his original line on the way into a corner, but cannot push a rival on that line off the track

Now I really hate it when Hobbs is right over on speedtv, but he did comment that Webber had made 2 moves, which is almost impossible to see with out watching the move frame by frame. But Webber did pause his momentum going towards pit side of the track (even if for only some 3 frames on my dvd players frame advance) but enough to run afoul of this "un-written rule"

Edit: I Believe the unwritten rule is in regards to only 1 move to defend a position. the author of that story added more to make it fit his story. Either way, allowed 1 move to defend, Webber made 2...



wasn't the clip in the your first link good enough? Wanna know why that clip his hardly comparable? First, we are talking a dispute going into a corner, the "un-written" rule concerning this is... the driver ahead gets the racing line. Now did you notice it was a drying track? So we can clearly see Hamilton following the dry racing line. and with Webber on the wetter part of the track, its equally likely that Webber had some control issues as well.

Now to dig up a link to the thread about someone pushing Massa towards pit wall... remember the outrage... Massa was almost over the white lines!!! PENALTY!!! :p :


The day someone is in a box checking moves on slow-frame to see if a penalty is handed out is the day I no longer follow F1. Plain and simple.

[RJL25]

In Webber's own words:

"I moved accross the track to the pit lane re-entry point to protect my line to try and force Fernando to take the outside line, instead Fernando dived out into the pit lane and I think a bit onto the grass, I had to move back accross the track to give him some room by which time he was already past, I knew I had to get back around him or my race was screwed so I lifted and ducked back accross to the inside and made the pass"

From that, and then reviewing the video, its quite clear that webber moved accross to the outside of the track BEFORE Fernando pulled out of the draft, Webber was trying to make him take the outside line but it was Fernando who CHOSE to take the inside lane by diving into the pit lane.

If Fernando was already alongside and Webber then drove accross the track then that would be a different story, and Fernando would have been jumping up and down about it, but thats not what happened, its bloody obvious Fernando ducked out into the pit lane AFTER webber had driven accross the track, are you people bloody stupid or something?

Fernando knows that, hence why he didn't complain, he made a bloody gutsy move to try and make a position but Webber was even gutsier by breaking massively late for the corner to get the position back.

It was just good hard racing, I don't understand your bloody problem

[555-04Q2]

It was just good hard racing

:up:

Which we dont see enough of anymore, even with the new aero regs. I'm all for drivers pushing the limits, both in pace and defending their position.

[punter_S14]

What we saw by Mark Webber was by todays standards, great driving.
( & very entertaining! )
However, the whole blocking/weaving thing has me amused.
You cannot complain about less overtaking whilst this is allowed.
It is a speed event isn't it?, the original concept?
Or is it a reflection of the present world?, i.e: obstructionism.
Weaving/blocking has grown like a cancer in motorsport as it has crept in over time. Some drivers have pushed the boundries at times but have got away with it as the stewards have been weak.
A football fan can't complain ( re: overtaking ) that footballers don't carry the ball enough if the opposition can hold them by the arm, can they?
Whats the difference?

[SGWilko]

What we saw by Mark Webber was by todays standards, great driving.
( & very entertaining! )
However, the whole blocking/weaving thing has me amused.
You cannot complain about less overtaking whilst this is allowed.
It is a speed event isn't it?, the original concept?
Or is it a reflection of the present world?, i.e: obstructionism.
Weaving/blocking has grown like a cancer in motorsport as it has crept in over time. Some drivers have pushed the boundries at times but have got away with it as the stewards have been weak.
A football fan can't complain ( re: overtaking ) that footballers don't carry the ball enough if the opposition can hold them by the arm, can they?
Whats the difference?

The whole point in Mark going to the right was to make Alonso pass on the left so Mark had the inside line for the corner. He was not attempting to prevent Alonso from making the move. Alonso however was having none of it......

Do none of the naesayers see that?

[Tazio]

IMHO if this move was outside the bounds of propreity Fred would probably say something.
Although he may not, because I think he really enjoys mixing it up on the track.
However, Flavio would be screaming bloody murder. :)

[RJL25]

The whole point in Mark going to the right was to make Alonso pass on the left so Mark had the inside line for the corner. He was not attempting to prevent Alonso from making the move. Alonso however was having none of it......

Do none of the naesayers see that?

Apparently not, I mean its incredibly obvious, but some people are just set against certain drivers, some against Webber, some against Hamilton, some against Button, etc, and so they search for anything they can to have a dig at that certain driver and make a big deal about it. If it was there fravorite driver they would be saying how great it was.

[markabilly]

Man!! if you are relying on markabilly and fousto as reinforcements, then you are in deep poo poo. You will get the George Custer feeling very soon. :p :
I understand how painful the truth must hurt you being that Webber is one of the "pride of britanna"..........but you are the one who should be pulling out arrows out of your a$$----neither of us are relying upon anything but the evidence and only the evidence in form of videos.......

Webber did the dirt, and racing would have more passing, if it were not for such trash moves by someone who preaches better....but was in not england that gave rise to the definition of hypocrite??? As with fellow countrymen Max, Bernie, Dennis, Lewis.... :D

[markabilly]

However, the whole blocking/weaving thing has me amused.
You cannot complain about less overtaking whilst this is allowed.
It is a speed event isn't it?, the original concept?
Or is it a reflection of the present world?, i.e: obstructionism.
Weaving/blocking has grown like a cancer in motorsport as it has crept in over time. Some drivers have pushed the boundries at times but have got away with it as the stewards have been weak.
A football fan can't complain ( re: overtaking ) that footballers don't carry the ball enough if the opposition can hold them by the arm, can they?
Whats the difference?
None and is my point. If webber had not played his dirty game, then there would have been a pass!! On the track!!!
OMG!!!

But webber played it and stopped what was clearly going to be a pass...


and made it all very dangerous....take a good look at the photo and wonder how many might have died if things had gone wrong

[markabilly]

:up:

Which we dont see enough of anymore, even with the new aero regs. I'm all for drivers pushing the limits, both in pace and defending their position.
Then MS should never have been punished for Spain nor all the bumps on Damon...

[Rollo]

The real reason for this is that Mark Webber has a Union Jack in the corner of his nation's flag (therefore he is British). Hating the British is morally acceptable around here, we already established that quite some time ago ;)

I think our Markabilly is guilty as charged:

I understand how painful the truth must hurt you being that Webber is one of the "pride of britanna"...


Um, you are actually aware that Queanbeyan where Mark Webber is from is in Australia and some 11,488km away from Britain? Rampant nationalism I can tolerate but this borders on sheer ignorance.

[Dave B]

I understand how painful the truth must hurt you being that Webber is one of the "pride of britanna"..........but you are the one who should be pulling out arrows out of your a$$----neither of us are relying upon anything but the evidence and only the evidence in form of videos.......

Webber did the dirt, and racing would have more passing, if it were not for such trash moves by someone who preaches better....but was in not england that gave rise to the definition of hypocrite??? As with fellow countrymen Max, Bernie, Dennis, Lewis.... :D
Your posts are dangerously close to xenophobic, and make for some pretty ugly reading. If you have facts or evidence then bring it on, but don't play on peoples' nationality :rolleyes:

[Valve Bounce]

are you people bloody stupid or something?

Fernando knows that, hence why he didn't complain, he made a bloody gutsy move to try and make a position but Webber was even gutsier by breaking massively late for the corner to get the position back.

It was just good hard racing, I don't understand your bloody problem

I strongly suggest you calm down. You don't need a holiday from here just yet. ;)

[Valve Bounce]

I understand how painful the truth must hurt you being that Webber is one of the "pride of britanna"..........but you are the one who should be pulling out arrows out of your a$$----neither of us are relying upon anything but the evidence and only the evidence in form of videos.......

Webber did the dirt, and racing would have more passing, if it were not for such trash moves by someone who preaches better....but was in not england that gave rise to the definition of hypocrite??? As with fellow countrymen Max, Bernie, Dennis, Lewis.... :D

You need some kool aid. Mark is from Queanbeyan - he ain't no Pom. :rolleyes:

[callum122]

But webber played it and stopped what was clearly going to be a pass...


and made it all very dangerous....take a good look at the photo and wonder how many might have died if things had gone wrong


Don't be ridiculous, suggesting people could have possibly died if the move went bad. Motorsport is dangerous and I'm glad Webber attempted the pass, rather than waiting to for it during pit stops. Good to see a driver make a daring move, even if reckless. It went well so congrats to Webber.

[big_sw2000]

None and is my point. If webber had not played his dirty game, then there would have been a pass!! On the track!!!
OMG!!!

But webber played it and stopped what was clearly going to be a pass...


and made it all very dangerous....take a good look at the photo and wonder how many might have died if things had gone wrong
Sorry getting bored with this.
But maybe i watched a diffrent race, but there was a pass, in fact a double pass.
Alonso past Webber, then Webber past Alonso.

[markabilly]

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1403/passalonso.jpg
- Box ticked

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... lterations (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/AAE9C10693C293F7C12575AF004512DC/$FILE/1-2009%20F1%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%20(Showing%20Al terations))%2024-03-2009.pdf

Article 16.1
"Incident" means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any action by any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the stewards and referred to the race director for investigation) which :
- forced a driver off the track ;

There as yet has been no "Incident" noted, and none reported to the race stewards by the race director - it is safe to assume that there is no incident.
It doesn't look like a duck, walk like a duck or quack like a duck.

IT'S NOT A DUCK


Excuse me but Webber is clearly going completely to the edge of the racing track, INTO THE PITLANE EXIT, and pushing FA into the pit lane even on this self serving (note who drew the lines in) photo--
I thought the white lines were NOT to be crossed--good thing someone was not exiting the pits about the same time

And then onto the grass through the pit exit
That is clearly being forced off track
And such moves make passing impossible or very dangerous---(for all the folks who think I would outlaw passing!!!).

Thanks for the nice photo diagram that proves Webber's quilt beyond reasonable doubt--- :up:

Amen, now you Webber boys and girls, just keep drinking the kool aid and pretending it tastes sooo goooooDD

Have another one, brother valve

:beer: maybe all those videos will just go away.........and you, Webber, and all the rest will be saved from your sins....OH my, just took a sip, and you are right, there is no car on the grass, there is several car widths of space, no need to be in the pitlane exit, FA was just out of control, Webber is now all cleaned up....Amen and good night

[EuroTroll]

I'm not gonna get sucked into this again (or so I hope), but a couple of points.

1) Those who say that Webber moved to right to let Alonso take the outside line - look at frame 3 in that photo analysis. Alonso is already almost fully alongside, yet Webber keeps moving to the right. How exactly is Alonso supposed to get to the outside line from there? By going through him? And then frames 4 and 5. Why didn't Webber give him more room - if this wasn't bullying with the intent of making Alonso lift?

2) Comparing this to Estoril '88. The question, obviously, is whether moves like that should be acceptable. It obviously wasn't in '88, hence the popular outrage. It obviously is now, hence the popular praise. My opinion is that it should be no more acceptable now than it was then. Because it's essentially the same. Bullying your competitor with the threat of an accident so that he would lift. Which is unsporting. And last time I looked, F1 was supposed to be a sport. Not just a show, where anything goes as long as it's "exciting".

[big_sw2000]

I'm not gonna get sucked into this again (or so I hope), but a couple of points.

1) Those who say that Webber moved to right to let Alonso take the outside line - look at frame 3 in that photo analysis. Alonso is already almost fully alongside, yet Webber keeps moving to the right. How exactly is Alonso supposed to get to the outside line from there? By going through him? And then frames 4 and 5. Why didn't Webber give him more room - if this wasn't bullying with the intent of making Alonso lift?

2) Comparing this to Estoril '88. The question, obviously, is whether moves like that should be acceptable. It obviously wasn't in '88, hence the popular outrage. It obviously is now, hence the popular praise. My opinion is that it should be no more acceptable now than it was then. Because it's essentially the same. Bullying your competitor with the threat of an accident so that he would lift. Which is unsporting. And last time I looked, F1 was supposed to be a sport. Not just a show, where anything goes as long as it's "exciting".
Sod this for a laugh, lets go down the pub :beer: :rotflmao: :arrows:

[EuroTroll]

Sod this for a laugh, lets go down the pub :beer: :rotflmao: :arrows:

Nah, wanna stick with this a little bit more. :D I've got some beers here too, though, want me to send you one via PM? :D

[big_sw2000]

Nah, wanna stick with this a little bit more. :D I've got some beers here too, though, want me to send you one via PM? :D
Go for it.
So argument continues, all in good spirts though :s mokin:

[aryan]

I understand how painful the truth must hurt you being that Webber is one of the "pride of britanna"

:rolleyes:

Says a person who clearly knows nothing about the rivalry between Aussies and Poms. If you set your foot once at the MCG when the ashes are taking place, you won't ever EVER call an Aussie, a Brit again.

[Knock-on]

:rolleyes:

Says a person who clearly knows nothing about the rivalry between Aussies and Poms. If you set your foot once at the MCG when the ashes are taking place, you won't ever EVER call an Aussie, a Brit again.

Yeah, once a convict....

:laugh:

;)

[Valve Bounce]

:rolleyes:

Says a person who clearly knows nothing about the rivalry between Aussies and Poms. If you set your foot once at the MCG when the ashes are taking place, you won't ever EVER call an Aussie, a Brit again.

At least he didn't call Webbo a Kiwi - now that would have started a war!! :eek:

[Valve Bounce]

Yeah, once a convict....

:laugh:

;)

Many people go to extraordinary lengths to prove they had convict links. Some even fake it.

Something about bragging rights at the footy as well as in pubs.

[Tazio]

Many people go to extraordinary lengths to prove they had convict links. Some even fake it.

Something about bragging rights at the footy as well as in pubs.

Many people go to extraordinary lengths to prove they have convict links here in the States.
They have crude tattos on their necks, carry stolen hand-guns, and lurk around rundown urban areas. :uhoh:

Something about bragging rights at the Crack House, and in the alley :s mokin:
:p :

[markabilly]

Chill man just because the overwhelming majority don't agree with you there's no need to get so incensed.. Take a deep breath, you're entitled to your opinion, and don't get so personal when others have different views. The photo just shows a great move by two excellent drivers.. I'm no Webber 'Fanboy' (god I love that word), but I know good exciting racing when I see it.... :s mokin:

hahaha, i never get upset...it is always fun and games, racing is life and serious stuff WHEN YOU DO IT, but when you are just arm chair spectators, it is all for fun....but Pom, Kiwi, Aussie, or just a good ole bBrit convict on the run...a hypocrite is still a hypocrite..and may be I should take a nap before i pass out.. :beer:

[ShiftingGears]

Yeah, once a convict....

:laugh:

;)

:laugh: :laugh:

[Valve Bounce]

Many people go to extraordinary lengths to prove they have convict links here in the States.
They have crude tattos on their necks, carry stolen hand-guns, and lurk around rundown urban areas. :uhoh:

Something about bragging rights at the Crack House, and in the alley :s mokin:
:p :

I can see we have different sociological priorities on this issue. :p :

[TheFamousEccles]

Oh my god, a car overtook another car. That is just FAR TOO DANGEROUS!!! We must outlaw all overtaking from this point on, for the good of F1! Imagine if two cars make contact?! People could get killed! From now on, after qualifying, all cars should travel in an orderly line for the duration of the race. Any and all overtaking will be deemed a breech of safety and the driver banned for life!

Too late. With the new two-tiered spend rules that Max "Springtime for Hitler" Mosley has imposed benevolently on F1, there will be heaps of over taking. Mainly of the uncapped teams passing the capped teams. It'l be feckin' ace.

[Knock-on]

hahaha, i never get upset...it is always fun and games, racing is life and serious stuff WHEN YOU DO IT, but when you are just arm chair spectators, it is all for fun....but Pom, Kiwi, Aussie, or just a good ole bBrit convict on the run...a hypocrite is still a hypocrite..and may be I should take a nap before i pass out.. :beer:

I remember a few years ago when I threw a American Independance Day party.

It was great fun, we all dressed up in British fancy dress (The St Trinians girls were best), served Pimms, Bitter and G&T's, wiped our feet on the stars and stripes as we walked in the house and burnt the flag at Midnight.

Americans don't get the fact we can celebrate independance as well ;)

Probably wouldn't get away with it these days. Would have a SWAT team down for such blatent Terrorist, rascist aggression :D

[markabilly]

Probably wouldn't get away with it these days. Would have a SWAT team down for such blatent Terrorist, rascist aggression :D

Nah, just come on down south and we will send the Klan over for a little midnight cross burning....i hear you folks look good, all tarred and feathered :love:
me, i stay away from such events as once again, i be overqualified...as my IQ is somewhere over 60

Seriously, maybe someday you losers will get over the fact that you lost, and the best and brightest left Britain for the USA and were so smart, they cut the ties that bound us to the old fools known as king george and parliament :burnout:

[EuroTroll]

Seriously, maybe someday you losers will get over the fact that you lost, and the best and brightest left Britain for the USA and were so smart, they cut the ties that bound us to the old fools known as king george and parliament :burnout:

Really? I was always under the impression that the worst and the dumbest left Britain for the USA, at least initially. You know, the people who couldn't make a life for themselves in the old country. :) Religious nutters, etc. :)

See? I know how to make friends too! :p :