Senna...a sportsman ? [Archive]

elis

1st May 2009, 15:44

EuroTroll

1st May 2009, 16:00

I think it is valid to post negative opinions of someone in these circumstances. When one remembers Senna, most will also remember the significant controversies in which he was involved, and which were arguably just as big a part of his 'make-up' as a driver as were the positive aspects.

That is true, and I'm not in any way trying to deny that! There were many instances where Senna's actions were clearly in the wrong. The worst of these, in my opinion, was the Portuguese GP of 1988, where Senna almost pushed Prost to the pit wall, while Prost was trying to pass him on the main straight (and did, eventually).

The man was complicated. Not a saint, by any means!

What really ticks me off, though, is blatant bashing, which I think a certain person has clearly been quilty of in this thread.

BDunnell

1st May 2009, 16:00

Tamburello, NO driver is a saint & it's accepted that that included Ayrton on occasion, but this really isn't the place to be scraping up the select 'off' moments in an otherwise stella career. Sure he was fallable, just like EVERY other driver out there.

I had the fortune to meet Ayrton & spend a few moments with him. It was after a test session at Silverstone when the paddock was empty bar teams packing up. Ayrton was exceptionally engaging, if a little enigmatic.. there was a humbleness about him that seldom was seen infront of the tv screens.

This thread seems to be a place for reflecting on the loss, I'm assuming from your comments so far that you weren't a fan.. well others are, so please in this thread have a modicum of respect for them & indeed for the memory of Ayrton... in other words.. if all you're going to do is be disrespectul.. then stfu.

But when some people remember Senna, they don't just remember the good things about him. As I said above, for me an intrinsic part of Senna's career were the numerous occasions on which he acted in an unacceptable manner, and I see no point in glossing over them.

I think it's a shame that being honest - no more - about the dead is now deemed somehow disrespectful or unreasonable.

BeansBeansBeans

1st May 2009, 16:16

I think it's a shame that being honest - no more - about the dead is now deemed somehow disrespectful or unreasonable.

I agree, but it is a shame to see brazen insults being used.

EuroTroll

1st May 2009, 16:24

But when some people remember Senna, they don't just remember the good things about him. As I said above, for me an intrinsic part of Senna's career were the numerous occasions on which he acted in an unacceptable manner, and I see no point in glossing over them.

I think it's a shame that being honest - no more - about the dead is now deemed somehow disrespectful or unreasonable.

Well, the phrase "do not speak ill of the dead" is probably as old as mankind. If anything, nowadays it's less followed than at any other time in human history.

But that's hardly the point, is it. ;)

"An intrinsic part of Senna's career were the numerous occasions on which he acted in an unacceptable manner," you say. That's a correct statement, in my opinion (even though I will always be a great fan of the man). But focussing solely on the bad is just as wrong as stating the man was an infallible hero, I think. No, in fact it's probably worse!

----

Anyway, I hope this thread can continue in a more pleasant manner. ;)

tintop

1st May 2009, 16:47

I think it is valid to post negative opinions of someone in these circumstances. When one remembers Senna, most will also remember the significant controversies in which he was involved, and which were arguably just as big a part of his 'make-up' as a driver as were the positive aspects.

What a ridiculous statement, clearly the positives outweighed the negatives by a large margin, or we wouldn't be memorializing him would we? There is plenty of space dedicated to rating former racers pro and con, I'd think that some of you would be able to tell the difference between that and a memorial thread on the anniversary of his violent death.

What a great talent, what a joy to watch!

BDunnell

1st May 2009, 16:52

What a ridiculous statement, clearly the positives outweighed the negatives by a large margin, or we wouldn't be memorializing him would we? There is plenty of space dedicated to rating former racers pro and con, I'd think that some of you would be able to tell the difference between that and a memorial thread on the anniversary of his violent death.

What a great talent, what a joy to watch!

He was undeniably a joy to watch, and absolutely incredible, when he was at his best. But, having watched him on many occasions, I find it impossible to think of his time in F1 without dwelling on the occasions on which he was far from being incredible in a positive sense, and would imagine that many people would think the same way. I don't understand why this view is 'ridiculous'.

tintop

1st May 2009, 17:26

I'm sorry....I didn't realise he wasn't the bloke who drove into Prost in Suzuka 1990.

A real class act - referring to the post not a deceased Senna dig. Grave dancing and a pronounced lack of self-respect, or a maniacal need to put down any perceived threats to another certain driver's legacy,who knows?

THE_LIBERATOR

1st May 2009, 19:38

He was undeniably a joy to watch, and absolutely incredible, when he was at his best. But, having watched him on many occasions, I find it impossible to think of his time in F1 without dwelling on the occasions on which he was far from being incredible in a positive sense, and would imagine that many people would think the same way. I don't understand why this view is 'ridiculous'.It's ridiculous if you only apply it to Senna, because you could level much the same judgements at any of the legends of the sport. So What you dwell on must surely be a personal choice, why you should think that would apply to many people is strange. As such it appears to be a personal bias rather than a rational judgement.

BDunnell

1st May 2009, 19:55

It's ridiculous if you only apply it to Senna, because you could level much the same judgements at any of the legends of the sport. So What you dwell on must surely be a personal choice, why you should think that would apply to many people is strange. As such it appears to be a personal bias rather than a rational judgement.

I have no bias against any driver. And I don't think the same can be said of Senna as can of any other driver, because while he was clearly far better than most, the incident which sticks in my mind, Suzuka 1990, remains probably the most disgraceful thing I have ever seen in an F1 race — just as that first lap at Donington in 1993 remains one of the best.

THE_LIBERATOR

1st May 2009, 21:16

So you think that the questionable actions of other drivers shouldn't be taken into account when judging their career?

UltimateDanGTR

1st May 2009, 21:31

RIP Ayrton.

In my opinion the greatest racing driver the world has ever seen.

15 years ago the genious departed.

rest in peace.

Daniel

1st May 2009, 21:45

Ridiculous that some people can't accept Senna's faults. Dying doesn't change the person they were.

Anyhoo RIP Ayrton and Roland.

BDunnell

1st May 2009, 22:01

So you think that the questionable actions of other drivers shouldn't be taken into account when judging their career?

Of course I think they should be taken account. Where have I said I don't? However, I don't think it's unreasonable to offer the view that one incident in particular was notably worse than anything else I have ever seen in an F1 race.

yodasarmpit

1st May 2009, 22:40

Ridiculous that some people can't accept Senna's faults. Dying doesn't change the person they were.

Anyhoo RIP Ayrton and Roland.^^^^^^^^^

tintop

2nd May 2009, 01:10

Ridiculous that some people can't accept Senna's faults. Dying doesn't change the person they were.

Anyhoo RIP Ayrton and Roland.

Don't be obtuse, it's a matter of the appropriateness of bringing up negatives in a memorial forum, not the veracity of the comments. Having been a competitor in races with fatalities and having been a spectator when others have died, perhaps I'm a bit more sentimental about these things, but there are plenty of forums to discuss the negative aspects of drivers, avoid ones marking the anniversaries of their deaths.

BDunnell

2nd May 2009, 01:54

tintop

2nd May 2009, 04:06

In which some people would no doubt still consider it inappropriate to have such a discussion because of the view that one should not 'speak ill of the dead', a rule that is always applied selectively.

So being selectively insensitive about the dead - as in your case, is appropriate because you think that "this sort of thing goes on". Keep digging, it's getting warmer down there.

What part of Memorial don't you understand?

Daniel

2nd May 2009, 06:55

Don't be obtuse, it's a matter of the appropriateness of bringing up negatives in a memorial forum, not the veracity of the comments. Having been a competitor in races with fatalities and having been a spectator when others have died, perhaps I'm a bit more sentimental about these things, but there are plenty of forums to discuss the negative aspects of drivers, avoid ones marking the anniversaries of their deaths.
It's all down to opinion, personally I don't think anyone has said anything that was entirely inappropriate. They merely highlighted a few of the defects in a man that seems to be widely regarded as someone who is perfect.

The first post in this thread set the tone for the thread and this is what it said

Share your thoughts about him. If your ever met him, feel free to tell us that how he was as a person. For the ones who never met him. Or other things what you want to say about him.

Now that's what Tamburello has done and I think if you look at some of the things Senna was involved with in his life he could be quite an ugly person at times even if at other times he was an absolute genius behind the wheel. To gloss over the past is silly, it happens and you need to deal with it as honestly as possible.

EuroTroll

2nd May 2009, 10:42

Personally, I don't see how anyone could like a man who thinks its ok to punch another competitor for having the temerity to be faster....I certainly don't see why that should be celebrated.

I didn't post the details of the Irvine-incident to celebrate it, for Christ's sake! I posted it 'cause that's one of things that immediately stick to mind when one thinks of Senna. You know, trying to paint a balanced picture..

Which is not what you have done in this thread.

Never mind, don't let me stop your spiteful hate-fest.

2nd May 2009, 10:46

I didn't post the details of the Irvine-incident to celebrate it, for Christ's sake! I posted it 'cause that's one of things that immediately stick to mind when one thinks of Senna. You know, trying to paint a balanced picture..

Which is not what you have done in this thread.

And why should I?

You posted details of it, supposedly now to show 'balance', then cried out when I stated that the episode made him look like a xxxx....proving that you don't want any view other than yours...so your 'balance' argument is tosh.

EuroTroll

2nd May 2009, 11:05

And why should I?

You posted details of it, supposedly now to show 'balance', then cried out when I stated that the episode made him look like a xxxx....proving that you don't want any view other than yours...so your 'balance' argument is tosh.

I responded angrily to your comment because it was just mindless abuse! The purpose of which, always, is to provoke.

My "balance" argument is tosh, is it? Have you read my posts in this thread? Has it really been all full of praise for Senna and nothing else??

You really rub me the wrong way, you do. There are posters in this thread who clearly were not fans, but they keep their opinions respectful, and balanced from their view point.

You just bash.

What's the point?

BDunnell

2nd May 2009, 11:45

So being selectively insensitive about the dead - as in your case, is appropriate because you think that "this sort of thing goes on". Keep digging, it's getting warmer down there.

What part of Memorial don't you understand?

I am not being selectively insensitive about the dead — it's just that this thread has happened to come up. Were there to be a thread about Giuseppe Farina, I would make reference to the fact that although he was a great driver, he was also deemed to be exceptionally ruthless on track at a time when this wasn't the done thing. Anything wrong with that?

2nd May 2009, 14:53

You really rub me the wrong way, you do.

Then use the ignore function, since you evidently can't handle views different to yours.

tintop

2nd May 2009, 15:50

You just bash.

What's the point?

Senseless provocation and insecurity regarding one's own hero, I suspect.

tintop

2nd May 2009, 15:52

I am not being selectively insensitive about the dead — it's just that this thread has happened to come up. Were there to be a thread about Giuseppe Farina, I would make reference to the fact that although he was a great driver, he was also deemed to be exceptionally ruthless on track at a time when this wasn't the done thing. Anything wrong with that?

Memorial thread on the anniversary of a violent death that many of us witnessed, fans or not. Can't simplify it any more for you, sorry if it beyond your capacity.

2nd May 2009, 20:00

Senseless provocation and insecurity regarding one's own hero, I suspect.

Yes, of course, because obviously Senna never did anything to be criticised or disliked for.

The insecurity is very much on your side of the fence. Insecurity that anyone could have a view on a controversial character that isn't an air-brushed revisionist one.

Oh, and I'm not quite sure what my 'hero' has to do with it. I care not one jot if you want to criticise Jean-Pierre Jabouille.

tintop

3rd May 2009, 05:01

Yes, of course, because obviously Senna never did anything to be criticised or disliked for.

The insecurity is very much on your side of the fence. Insecurity that anyone could have a view on a controversial character that isn't an air-brushed revisionist one.

Oh, and I'm not quite sure what my 'hero' has to do with it. I care not one jot if you want to criticise Jean-Pierre Jabouille.

Ever been to a funeral?

This isn't a grade school compare and contrast. Tough internet guy that you are and all, what a joke.

Has nothing to do with Sena's imperfections, it's all about respect in the appropriate forum. But go on, perpetuate the tough guy behind a keyboard in the basement persona that you enjoy so much.

tintop

3rd May 2009, 05:13

Yet when he dies, it would be very hard, and in my view wrong, for the obituaries and tributes to forget that he was also a violent drunk. Mention of this, as a character fault, should surely be made without fear of it being deemed 'disrespectful'.

What an idiotic statement - try driving a race car at any level before you equate the two sports. And by the way, on the anniversary of the snooker players death, you ought to be respectful as well. I'm quite sure that you haven't reached your majority judging by the base nature of your comments.

3rd May 2009, 09:59

Ever been to a funeral?

Plenty, thanks, although never to one of somebody I thought had a trashy character.

Respect is paid when respect is due....and Senna didn't earn my respect.

This thread is not a funeral parlour, this is a discussion board. If you don't like it, if you really are so insecure that other people hold valid dislikes of a man who could and did act like a thug and a bully, then tough.

3rd May 2009, 10:12

What an idiotic statement

Don't talk about "respect" when you are anything but respectful yourself.

F1boat

3rd May 2009, 11:01

Actually I will follow tamburello's advice and use the Ignore Button. That shows what I think about his posts.

BDunnell

3rd May 2009, 11:30

What an idiotic statement - try driving a race car at any level before you equate the two sports. And by the way, on the anniversary of the snooker players death, you ought to be respectful as well. I'm quite sure that you haven't reached your majority judging by the base nature of your comments.

What on earth has a comparison of the two sports got to do with this discussion? I am comparing the individuals in question, not the sports.

But if people want threads such as this to just be a parade of people saying 'R.I.P.', one of the most unappealing features of internet forums in the event of the death of someone prominent or subsequent discussion of that person, so be it.

elis

3rd May 2009, 12:08

If you can't speak ill of the dead does that mean Hitler was lovely?

Your newly installed signature speaks volumes about your state of mind. It's quite clear it's in relation to the Senna tribute thread. To address the character of Ayrton to that of Hitler is down right offensive. I think you have issues.

Yes you are entitiled to a personal opinion on Senna, but just how many times does it need ramming into your cranium that people here KNOW that at times Ayrton (along with plenty of others) was less than 'Saintly' on track, they also KNOW he was not pepetually nor soley the 'devil' character that you claim.

Had you wanted a sensible grown up discussion on the subject then you wouldn't have addressed it in an insensitive manner that was only ever going to goad a back lash, particulary in an anniversary thread where 9 times out of 10 people came to remember fondly someone who touched their lives in a positive way.

Your posts bring NOTHING new or insightful to the thread, you simply bring a petulant goading attitude with a crass manner, & seemingly a distinct inability to understand or accept any view other than your own.

Most open minded people did during his life, & still do, retain objectivity in understanding that Senna did have 'flaws', few deny that, but they're also capable of seeing & appreciating that those flaws did not totally & soley define him...

Daniel

3rd May 2009, 12:32

Your newly installed signature speaks volumes about your state of mind. It's quite clear it's in relation to the Senna tribute thread. To address the character of Ayrton to that of Hitler is down right offensive. I think you have issues.

I think you have issues with regards to reading and understanding someone's posts. Read his post and reply again when you understand what he's saying.

elis

3rd May 2009, 12:43

I think you have issues with regards to reading and understanding someone's posts. Read his post and reply again when you understand what he's saying.

I understand that to bring Hitler into a thread about Senna is enough to tell me all I need to know..

ShiftingGears

3rd May 2009, 12:53

I understand that to bring Hitler into a thread about Senna is enough to tell me all I need to know..

Agreed. Tamburello definitely thinks that Senna is a reincarnation of Hitler. FACT.

Daniel

3rd May 2009, 13:08

I oafishly assumed that when Hitler was mentioned in a thread about Senna, that Senna was being compared directly to Hitler.

That much is apparent :)

EuroTroll

3rd May 2009, 13:34

It's just a shame that on the day that marks the anniversary of Senna's death a thread remembering him has been derailed in this way.

And now we're well and truly derailed, aren't we..

Perhaps this should be about Senna after all, and not a pissing contest between the Troll Coalition and the Anti-Troll Coalition? :)

There have been many good contributions to this thread. Actual memories and impressions, by fans (say, Jag_Warrior) and non-fans (say, BDunnel) alike. I don't agree with Tintop, in that I think there's no need to overlook Senna's faults in this thread, "a memorial thread on the anniversary of his violent death" though it may be.

But equally, I fail to see the value in a certain forumer's endless mantra of "Senna sucked", delivered at times in truly offensive manner.

So back to memories of Senna, perhaps? ;) Maybe even some new ones, from people who haven't posted here yet!

jens

3rd May 2009, 16:28

I see we have had a serious clash here. Separate threads are probably the best solution in this case.

So back to memories of Senna, perhaps? ;) Maybe even some new ones, from people who haven't posted here yet!

Hmm... :)
My "memories" about Senna derive from videos/books/articles as during his lifetime I knew nothing about him. So I don't have exact emotions or feelings about him and his racing. But all kinds of available information plus films of "The Right to Win" and "Racing is in My Blood" certainly create a very interesting vision of him. A person, who I'd have certainly liked to meet.

We all know his ruthlessness, but what is great, is that he tried to explain his attitude and racing philosophy as well as possible, making it quite comprehensible to me, so in the end there really isn't anything annoying about him. Only the situation at Suzuka '90 is for me, what I really don't approve in any way. Even Schumacher's antics and acts of desperation seemed more logical. But in the end - doesn't matter as so much time is past. We have had more interesting situations/characters in the sport and of course - more to discuss about. :)

EuroTroll

3rd May 2009, 16:42

Only the situation at Suzuka '90 is for me difficult to understand in any way. Even Schumacher's antics and acts of desperation seemed more logical

Thanks Jens, that's a good contribution. :cool:

About Suzuka '90... I think it was an act of a man who perceived that he had been grossly injusticed by the events that occurred before. The year before at Suzuka - in the title-deciding race -, Senna and Prost collided. Prost stepped out of his car, while Senna (with the help of marshalls) continued and - in his mind - won the race. Only to be prevented from going to the podium by the, then, FIA boss Balestre (a Frenchman like Prost, one might add), and later disqualified.

And in the qualifying for Suzuka '90 - another title-deciding race - it had been agreed before qualifying that the starting lanes would be switched, so that the pole-sitter would start from the clean side. Senna got pole and then, at the last minute, FIA's Ballestre decided that the starting lanes would not be switched after all...

And then Senna decided that if Prost, from P2, would get in front of him at the start, he would not "concede the corner"...

It was clearly wrong. I'm not saying it was right. But I hope you can see his reasoning for what he did...

----

Here's the thing in his own words.

Fef6blfYvrw

BDunnell

3rd May 2009, 16:50

There have been many good contributions to this thread. Actual memories and impressions, by fans (say, Jag_Warrior) and non-fans (say, BDunnel) alike.

Now that the thread has (rightly — for which thanks) been reopened, I hope studiose won't mind me posting a comment that I ended up sending him by PM, as the thread had just been locked before I finished typing it as a post.

In response to the above, I certainly wouldn't class myself as a 'non-fan' of Senna. I continue to have the highest regard for what he did when he was at his best. Watching him in those circumstances was, as I said earlier, a privilege. Of those who came before Senna, I would put him (and indeed Prost) on a par with Fangio, Moss, Clark and Stewart. But, in my opinion, none of their careers were tarnished by one particular incident in the same way as was Senna's.

EuroTroll

3rd May 2009, 17:02

In response to the above, I certainly wouldn't class myself as a 'non-fan' of Senna. I continue to have the highest regard for what he did when he was at his best. Watching him in those circumstances was, as I said earlier, a privilege. Of those who came before Senna, I would put him (and indeed Prost) on a par with Fangio, Moss, Clark and Stewart. But, in my opinion, none of their careers were tarnished by one particular incident in the same way as was Senna's.

Indeed, and that's fair, I think. And I also wouldn't put Senna in the same class as a GP driver as, say, Fangio and Clark, because of the bad things he did on the track (as I also said in the PM to BDunnell).

jens

3rd May 2009, 17:21

It was clearly wrong. I'm not saying it was right. But I hope you can see his reasoning for what he did...

Sure enough, he had his reasoning and that's good (I'm still waiting, what has MS to say about his Monaco '06 for example :p :) . But in any case it's difficult to approve that deed as it seemed like a blatant revenge, which was largely led by emotions. But from his point of view, it was an 'easy' solution to the championship by using the "winning at any cost" concept. In this respect I think he was fortunate that we didn't have as strict rules then as we have now as I suppose it's highly likely a driver would get DQ'd from the championship after a similar manouver nowadays.

EuroTroll

3rd May 2009, 17:36

But in any case it's difficult to approve that deed as it seemed like a blatant revenge, which was largely led by emotions. But from his point of view, it was an 'easy' solution to the championship by using the "winning at any cost" concept.

I think that's right. But Senna was/is best characterized by the indomitable will/need to win, isn't he. More so than any other driver ever, I think. And occasionally, that indomitable will/need to win led to behaviour that just wasn't/isn't acceptable...

He probably couldn't help it - it was just a part of his nature he couldn't always control.

I don't think he was ever purposefully unfair/unsporting though. I really do think he was essentially a good man. Off and on the track.. It's just that his very strong emotions sometimes got the better of his very strong mind...

Garry Walker

3rd May 2009, 18:03

I love it how some (mostly prost/ferrari) fans cry about Suzuka 1990, but omit to mention how that little bitch prost tried to ram out Senna the year before at the same race and when he couldnt do it properly, he had to get his asshole friend Balestre to finish the job for him. I personally, after the treatment Senna had at Suzuka both of these years, would have done the same he did, floored it and made sure Prost was out of the race. In fact, I remember myself laughing and being quite happy about what Senna did, justice was done.

As for the irvine incident, I would have hit him too, but I would like to think I would have made a better job of it and I doubt he would have ever been that arrogant again.

Garry Walker

3rd May 2009, 18:05

And occasionally, that indomitable will/need to win led to behaviour that just wasn't/isn't acceptable...

Who say what is acceptable and what is not?

Garry Walker

3rd May 2009, 18:08

Respect is paid when respect is due....and Senna didn't earn my respect.

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: I am sure that saddened him greatly during his life that some internet nobody did not respect him.

Hilarious stuff.

BDunnell

3rd May 2009, 18:39

I love it how some (mostly prost/ferrari) fans cry about Suzuka 1990, but omit to mention how that little bitch prost tried to ram out Senna the year before at the same race and when he couldnt do it properly, he had to get his asshole friend Balestre to finish the job for him. I personally, after the treatment Senna had at Suzuka both of these years, would have done the same he did, floored it and made sure Prost was out of the race. In fact, I remember myself laughing and being quite happy about what Senna did, justice was done.

I do not think that any true motor racing enthusiast should ever be pleased to see something like that happen, no matter what one's allegiance might be.

BDunnell

3rd May 2009, 18:40

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: I am sure that saddened him greatly during his life that some internet nobody did not respect him.

Hilarious stuff.

Why bother offering any opinions on here, then?

elis

3rd May 2009, 18:43

DANIEL.

Whoo-hoo, Way to go little boy :rolleyes: Listen up & listen up good.

DO NOT change other peoples comments, to amuse yourself, when you quote them, it does NOTHING but show up a frankly pathetic arrogance, akin to that of your buddy tamburello.

The very fact that Hitler was brought up in ANY context in a motorsport forum shows abject crassness to the hilt by it's very inclusion, plus knowing as we do, the posters personal opinion of Senna, the fact that he elected to make a Hitler reference when in the Remembrance thread was hardly an 'innocent' move, & no matter what the wording anyone with half a nouce could deduce the implication.

imo

Garry Walker

3rd May 2009, 18:47

I do not think that any true motor racing enthusiast should ever be pleased to see something like that happen, no matter what one's allegiance might be.

I was not a fan of Senna, although I have to admit I greatly admired his will to succeed and his "only winning counts" mentality.
I just thought it was justice that was done to Prost after the stunts he and Balestre pulled in 1989 and 1990.
I dont think that makes me any less or more a racing enthusiast.

Why bother offering any opinions on here, then?

I fail to see the relevance of what you said.

BDunnell

3rd May 2009, 18:54

I was not a fan of Senna, although I have to admit I greatly admired his will to succeed and his "only winning counts" mentality.
I just thought it was justice that was done to Prost after the stunts he and Balestre pulled in 1989 and 1990.
I dont think that makes me any less or more a racing enthusiast.

I'm afraid I do, because I don't think that there is any room in motorsport for retribution in that way, especially in circumstances that could have been highly dangerous (unlike the tangle between Senna and Prost the previous year, which was probably unnecessary, but extremely mild). I also do not believe there is any actual evidence for the 'French conspiracy' that you described.

I fail to see the relevance of what you said.

What is wrong with tamburello saying that Senna lost his respect in that way? That statement was no different to your comment above about Irvine having been arrogant towards Senna. I could just as easily have responded to that, or any of the other opinions you or anyone else expresses, in the same way as you responded to tamburello.

Jag_Warrior

3rd May 2009, 19:05

If you don't like it, if you really are so insecure that other people hold valid dislikes of a man who could and did act like a thug and a bully, then tough.

You're speaking about Senna or yourself? Help me out here.

Garry Walker

3rd May 2009, 19:11

I'm afraid I do, I am sure you will not be very greatly surprised when I say that I really am not even in the slightest bothered by that.

because I don't think that there is any room in motorsport for retribution in that way Why are you not attacking prost then? After all, his desire to get one back at Senna was the cause behind the crash in 1989, because Senna had him his bitch the previous 2 seasons.

especially in circumstances that could have been highly dangerous (unlike the tangle between Senna and Prost the previous year, which was probably unnecessary, but extremely mild). Yes, it was dangerous for sure, but motor racing is dangerous.
I am not saying what Senna did was right, but it has been overblown as an incident, when there have been so many dangerous other accidents, but they seem to be completely overlooked.

I also do not believe there is any actual evidence for the 'French conspiracy' that you described. Did Balestre not actually confess to helping Prost? In any case, one has to be quite naive to think Senna was given fair treatment by Balestre.

What is wrong with tamburello saying that Senna lost his respect in that way? That statement was no different to your comment above about Irvine having been arrogant towards Senna. I could just as easily have responded to that, or any of the other opinions you or anyone else expresses, in the same way as you responded to tamburello.
Tamburello said that Senna never earned his respect and it speaks volumes about how importantly he views himself. I find that hilarious.

Jag_Warrior

3rd May 2009, 19:18

The very fact that Hitler was brought up in ANY context in a motorsport forum shows abject crassness to the hilt by it's very inclusion, plus knowing as we do, the posters personal opinion of Senna, the fact that he elected to make a Hitler reference when in the Remembrance thread was hardly an 'innocent' move, & no matter what the wording anyone with half a nouce could deduce the implication.

imo

Hyperbole is often just something that makes those of a certain intellectual level believe that they have hit an ace. Usually I encounter those who bring up the Nazis or Hitler on political boards. That someone would bring it up here is rather telling... sad, but telling.

Whether I agree with someone or not, I believe that everyone is entitled to an opinion. It's the explanation of the opinion that often makes things interesting. With some people, if you let them talk long enough, they will make your point for you. At some base level, their opinion might be valid. But the roadmap they used to get there probably looks like a deep fried pretzel. IMO, some people are making very valid points in regard to Senna (positive and negative). And some... well... maybe time to come out of the deep fryer.

Sonic

3rd May 2009, 19:35

As a kid I was a huge Senna fan, but whilst I witnessed some of the dubious actions which have been commented on in this thread I did not understand the rights and wrongs of those actions until I was much older when I discovered the facts behind what I had just see as accidents as a child.

Learning the reasons behind the actions did colour my memories of Senna's career slightly but I still remember him as one of the greatest to sit behind the wheel.

So in answer to the original question. Was he a sportsman - yes. Of the highest order. Was he sporting? - no. He opperated on his own laws and views of right and wrong which I can't agree with.

BDunnell

3rd May 2009, 19:44

So in answer to the original question. Was he a sportsman - yes. Of the highest order. Was he sporting? - no. He opperated on his own laws and views of right and wrong which I can't agree with.

Very well put, if I may say so.

elis

3rd May 2009, 19:50

@jag_warrier, yah I did make reference earlier to tamburello that he was entitled to his opinion.. Opinions are what makes forums 'interesting' when you realise how um, 'diverse' some of them are, but in the big scheme of things.. who reeeeally at the end of the day, gives a toss about what anyone else on a pretty insignificant forum thinks! ;)

Aaaaanyway, back to the MOTORSPORT matter at hand.

If Senna was not deemed to be a sportman then I assume the same can be said for Schumacher, who was found guilty of deliberately taking out Villenueve & was subsequently stripped of all his points for the season. He also had a dubious incident with Hill, & was in the 2000 season widely criticised by his fellow competitiors for his aggressive tactics, then the MC 'stall' quali melarkey. Good sporting conduct?

In the past Alonso has been punished by stewards for unacceptable & dangerous driving. Good sporting conduct?

In 2008 Hamilton was also criticised for his overly aggressive driving style, forcing a few opponants way wide in moves that could be deemed as unsporting. He blatently lied to the race stewards.. good sporting conduct?

They are all sportmen who have at times been unsporting.

It seems that rightly or wrongly most of the world champions of latter years have all shared that same streak, a ruthless need to win & woe betide anyone who gets in their way. Do we casually dust their misdeeds under the rug, well until they're dead at least, then we'll casually forget all the positive stuff, the amazing talent, the respect, uh huh.. the r-e-s-p-e-c-t, they did garner, only to focus on denegrating each of them purely on their indiscretions?

The reason Senna gets a hard time mainly surrounds the events of Suzuka '90, I see the sole reason is because he openly stated he would not yield, no matter what. This seems to be the sole basis for the slating. The fact that the likes of Schumacher, Hamilton or even Prost in '89 have never uttered such simililar/open words could lead to an element of doubt as to whether their actions had been 'intentional' or not.. only they truly know.

You cannot say that Senna is not a sportman, yet, Schumacher for ex. is, simply on the basis that one spoke 'honestly' about his intentions & the other(s) kept quiet.

Unquestionably the Suzuka incident was a sour point in Ayrton's career, but he is not, or rather should not be defined by that. He was a highly successful sportsman, respected by the majority of his peers.. who in the end are the only ones that are in a position to judge.

BDunnell

3rd May 2009, 19:54

The reason Senna gets a hard time mainly surrounds the events of Suzuka '90, I see the sole reason is because he openly stated he would not yield, no matter what.

In my case, the reason for my dislike of what happened is the incident that ensued, not the motivation behind it, nor what was said afterwards. Personally, I do not consider any of the incidents involving Michael Schumacher, for example, to have been comparable in terms of their nature. But of course it is right to say that many a top sportsman has at some time or another been unsporting.

Unquestionably the Suzuka incident was a sour point in Ayrton's career, but he is not, or rather should not be defined by that. He was a highly successful sportsman, respected by the majority of his peers.. who in the end are the only ones that are in a position to judge.

Why? We all saw it, and I would think that means we are in quite a good position to make our own assessments on what happened.

Would you give a politician the benefit of the doubt on the same basis — namely that their peers are the only ones able to judge the rights and wrongs of what they do?

EuroTroll

3rd May 2009, 20:13

Personally, I do not consider any of the incidents involving Michael Schumacher, for example, to have been comparable in terms of their nature.

Really? Would you care to elaborate on that?

I mean, at Suzuka '90, Senna thought he was right... Now, whether he was or he wasn't is a matter of opinion. In my view, the reasonable opinion is that he wasn't. But I could have understood his position at the time. (However, that doesn't mean I would have approved of him intentionally crashing into Prost in that first corner!)

Can you imagine Schumacher thinking he was right at Jerez '97? Or anyone else thinking it was right, for that matter?

BDunnell

3rd May 2009, 20:19

Really? Would you care to elaborate on that?

I mean, at Suzuka '90, Senna thought he was right... Now, whether he was or he wasn't is a matter of opinion. In my view, the reasonable opinion is that he wasn't. But I can understand his position at the time.

Can you imagine Schumacher thinking he was right at Jerez '97? Or anyone else, for that matter?

What I mean, in a nutshell, is that I don't think any other of the notorious incidents were as savage as what Senna did at Suzuka in 1990. Schumacher's collision with Hill was, in my opinion, unsporting, but it was a fairly low-speed chop. Jerez 1997 probably goes further in terms of defying rational explanation, except to say that it was probably born out of desperation at not winning, and the end result was nowhere near as violent as was what happened in 1990.

EuroTroll

3rd May 2009, 20:27

Ok.

I judge these things mostly on the basis of motivation, I guess. That's why I think Suzuka '90 was far less bad than Jerez '97 (and even Adelaide '94).

Not that any of those were in any way good! :s

elis

3rd May 2009, 20:28

Why? We all saw it, and I would think that means we are in quite a good position to make our own assessments on what happened.

Heck, there sure are some fine toothed nit pickers around these boards ;) Sure we all saw it & can offer up personal opinions, not saying otherwise, my comment was more in relation to his peers, who imo are perhaps in a better position to perhaps truly understand or even relate to the situation first hand, given they & not us 'fans' are the ones behind the wheel making choices that sometimes come to fruitian & sometimes do not. Senna was an intense driver who on ocassion made poor choices, I think pretty much every drivers would relate to being in that situation at one point or other, but just wouldn't/didn't flat out admit to the judgement call so publicy... & hence still be paying for it some 19 years later at the keyboards of armchair critics.

Unsporting behaviour is just that, unsporting, no matter who the driver, if the thought is there & the action carried through, it is unsporting. imo.

BDunnell

3rd May 2009, 20:32

Heck, there sure are some fine toothed nit pickers around these boards ;) Sure we all saw it & can offer up personal opinions, not saying otherwise, my comment was more in relation to his peers, who imo are perhaps in a better position to perhaps truly understand or even relate to the situation first hand, given they & not us 'fans' are the ones behind the wheel making choices that sometimes come to fruitian & sometimes do not. Senna was an intense driver who on ocassion made poor choices, I think pretty much most drivers would relate to being in that situation at one point or other.. but just didn't flat out admit to the judgement call so publicy... & hence still be paying for it some 19 years later at the keyboards of armchair critics.

Unsporting behaviour is just that, unsporting, no matter who the driver, if the thought is there & the action carried through, it is unsporting. imo.

Maybe what I'm getting at here is the fact that none of his peers indulged in anything quite as blatantly savage (it's the best word I can think of to use) as what Senna did at Suzuka in 1990. Like I said above, I can't think of any other incident that stands comparison in those terms, as opposed to the underlying motivation. One could also mention Estoril in 1988, a move on Senna's part that caused some degree of outrage at the time, because it was just not deemed to be 'the done thing'.

tintop

4th May 2009, 00:59

Don't talk about "respect" when you are anything but respectful yourself.
Sadly, you haven't earned any.

Valve Bounce

4th May 2009, 01:12

Just because he's been dead 15 years doesn't change the fact that, talented though he undoubtedly was, he was also unsporting and showed a total disregard for the safety of his competitors.

You may wish to remember a less real version of the man, but it doesn't change the fact that he was not an untouchable saint.

PLEASE!! :rolleyes: don't make me ask you about SchM.
Can somebody please dig out the youtube vid of the relevant Macau GP? Thanks.

Valve Bounce

4th May 2009, 01:13

In my case, the reason for my dislike of what happened is the incident that ensued, not the motivation behind it, nor what was said afterwards. Personally, I do not consider any of the incidents involving Michael Schumacher, for example, to have been comparable in terms of their nature. But of course it is right to say that many a top sportsman has at some time or another been unsporting.

Why? We all saw it, and I would think that means we are in quite a good position to make our own assessments on what happened.

Would you give a politician the benefit of the doubt on the same basis — namely that their peers are the only ones able to judge the rights and wrongs of what they do?

Same comment as above. Ta!!

wedge

4th May 2009, 01:18

One could also mention Estoril in 1988, a move on Senna's part that caused some degree of outrage at the time, because it was just not deemed to be 'the done thing'.

That manoeuvre was blown out of proportion because Prost spat out his dummy and threw his toys out the pram.

Schumi did the same thing to his own brother at the Nurburgring (2003?) and I personally found nothing wrong with it.

My estimation of Massa went up when he decided to overtake in Fuji last year inbetween Webber and pitwall/pitlane exit

Valve Bounce

4th May 2009, 03:27

That manoeuvre was blown out of proportion because Prost spat out his dummy and threw his toys out the pram.

Schumi did the same thing to his own brother at the Nurburgring (2003?) and I personally found nothing wrong with it.

My estimation of Massa went up when he decided to overtake in Fuji last year inbetween Webber and pitwall/pitlane exit

Was he trying to frighten the guys hanging off the pitwall? :p :

BDunnell

4th May 2009, 11:37

That manoeuvre was blown out of proportion because Prost spat out his dummy and threw his toys out the pram.

Schumi did the same thing to his own brother at the Nurburgring (2003?) and I personally found nothing wrong with it.

Which probably shows that it had become acceptable in the interim.

4th May 2009, 17:14

Sadly, you haven't earned any.

I'm gutted.

4th May 2009, 17:16

You're speaking about Senna or yourself? Help me out here.

Oh yes, very clever....did you think of that yourself or did Mummy help you?

4th May 2009, 17:18

Tamburello said that Senna never earned his respect and it speaks volumes about how importantly he views himself. I find that hilarious.

Good for you.

Anyone would think your opinion was more important than an internet nobody....oh, wait, you are one too.

That really is hilarious.

4th May 2009, 17:21

PLEASE!! :rolleyes: don't make me ask you about SchM.
Can somebody please dig out the youtube vid of the relevant Macau GP? Thanks.

Schumi was a right txxt too. I wouldn't expect his repeated unsporting acts to be air-brushed or not mentioned.

His saving grace for me was that he was a txxt in a scarlet car.

SGWilko

4th May 2009, 17:56

His saving grace for me was that he was a txxt in a scarlet car.

Ah well, as my grandfather would say - GRHS - 'you can't polish a turd'

Sonic

4th May 2009, 18:11

Very well put, if I may say so.

Yes you may say. ;)

Garry Walker

4th May 2009, 19:05

.One could also mention Estoril in 1988, a move on Senna's part that caused some degree of outrage at the time, because it was just not deemed to be 'the done thing'.

Only because Prost is a crybaby, who forgot that he tried to force Senna to the grass at the start of the same GP, but Senna was not going to be intimidated.
Estoril was a harmless move, I have seen as dangerous moves done in races that have gotten little attention, because simply they were not committed by Senna (or schumacher for that matter).

That manoeuvre was blown out of proportion because Prost spat out his dummy and threw his toys out the pram.

Schumi did the same thing to his own brother at the Nurburgring (2003?) and I personally found nothing wrong with it.

My estimation of Massa went up when he decided to overtake in Fuji last year inbetween Webber and pitwall/pitlane exit

Agreed on all counts.

Which probably shows that it had become acceptable in the interim.

Why shouldnt it be acceptable? They are racing for victory, not drinking tea and saying "after you please." They are supposed to make passing difficult for others.

When I race go-karts against my friends, for fun, I see nothing wrong with forcing someone on the grass or giving him an option to either lift off or go into tyres. It is competition and one must give his all to win. Sure, someone might have a problem with that and say I am too hard and it is just for fun, but hey, those people probably will not be winning. Also, if someone pulls a move like that on me, I have no problem with it, because I understand why he does it.

Jag_Warrior

4th May 2009, 19:17

Oh yes, very clever....did you think of that yourself or did Mummy help you?

It was Mummy. Your Mummy. She rolled over and told me that you'd probably find that humorous. I guess she was right. She knows her little man, eh?

BDunnell

4th May 2009, 19:35

When I race go-karts against my friends, for fun, I see nothing wrong with forcing someone on the grass or giving him an option to either lift off or go into tyres. It is competition and one must give his all to win. Sure, someone might have a problem with that and say I am too hard and it is just for fun, but hey, those people probably will not be winning. Also, if someone pulls a move like that on me, I have no problem with it, because I understand why he does it.

It certainly wasn't deemed acceptable in the 1950s, when I think the desire to win was just as strong as it has ever been. Giuseppe Farina was seen as overly aggressive by some. Stirling Moss considered Roy Salvadori to be a dirty driver. The reason this was commented upon was because, again, it wasn't the done thing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against aggressive racing, but there is acceptable aggression and unacceptable aggression. Alonso's pass of Schumacher at the 130R at Suzuka in 2005 was potentially very dangerous, but perfectly acceptable; personally, I don't think the incidents I've cited involving Senna were. A line has to be drawn somewhere.

Sonic

4th May 2009, 19:55

Wow! Getting a bit heated in here.

Anywho, completely agree with you a line must be drawn somewhere. In my own experience I would find nothing wrong with sweeping in front of another driver to block and defend my corner but I refused to do the same if a car was already alonside. I once saw two drivers side by side at donnington coming under the dunlop bridge, driver a leaning over on driver b forcing him up to the grass - this IMO was ok, but driver a was not satisfied pushing further over until driver b had no choice but to lift or run off the track. As it happened driver b kept his foot in, got on the grass and shunted at the essess.

For me the line is crossed if another driver is forced off the track or has to brake/swerve to avoid the same thing.

4th May 2009, 21:17

It was Mummy. Your Mummy. She rolled over and told me that you'd probably find that humorous. I guess she was right. She knows her little man, eh?

Well, since my mother has been dead for 18 years, then you have surprised me.

Oh, look, you've tried to offend me about somebody I cared about who is dead...not quite what you intended, I suppose, because now you are the one speaking ill of the dead and I thought you were 'dead' against that?

BDunnell

4th May 2009, 21:19

I do hope this thread gets 'cleaned up'. Not closed, because I think there is an interesting and legitimate discussion to be had here, but cleaned up.

BeansBeansBeans

4th May 2009, 21:19