FIA Alternative?

[V12]

*I was originally going to reply to this part of Knock-on's post in the "2010 Rules" thread, but I went on a ramble that has nothing to do with next year's F1 regs and figured this was best being discussed in a whole new thread...


No more manufacturers, no more innovation. Standard cars are on their way with Max dictating the championship.

If this did happen (and the pessimist in me says it's a matter of when, not if), then, completely out of interest, what would be stopping somebody setting up a series, set of series, or a set of regulations that govern motorsport completely outside of the FIA's jurisdiction?

This is maybe a discussion for a new thread, but for instance Max's so-called-Formula Two initiative, which has eliminated not only constructors and manufacturers, but actual racing teams out of that one, tells me where his priorities lie, I for one will be completely ignoring F2 as if it didn't even exist, and if F1 ever went the same way I would simply switch off, as would many others. Could someone fill the void with a proper racing category (categories) without gimmicks and standard components?

I don't mean something like the GPWC, which is/was always about the manufacturers getting a bigger slice of the pie for themselves, this has nothing to do with commercial rights or anything like that, but rather recognising the FIA's sheer incompetence when it comes to running the technical side of the sport.

Im thinking something along the lines of the ACO who run the Le Mans 24 Hours and set the rules for the various "Le Mans Series" around the world, but not just limiting itself to sportscars. And something that would be independent of any manufacturer influences.

I'm just thinking personally from a sporting/interest/enjoyment point of view, but even those that unlike me are more business-minded, there must be a "market" for this sort of racing? Especially if Max continues to go off on one as he has done in the past 6-12 months or so.

Or do the FIA have some sort of higher legal authority over all forms of motorsport on the planet that would preclude this?

Obviously I know any top-line series couldn't call itself "Formula 1" - the name is irrelevant, it was initially devised as a set of post-war regulations, initially called Formula A, but somehow morphed into being a "brand name". But it's just a name, you can call a steaming turd whatever you like, and it would still be a pile of crap.

[Sonic]

I may well be wrong (and I'm sure someone will point it out if I am) but I do not believe the FIA has any god given right to govern a series if that series does not wish to be FIA accredited - IRL for example.

I for one totally agree with you V12, if F1 becomes little more than a glorified F3000 I won't be watching it.

But are there any candidates anyone could suggest to run this alternate championship?

[V12]

But are there any candidates anyone could suggest to run this alternate championship?

That is the million dollar question and possibly why it hasn't already happened already, I'm just wondering how feasible such a scenario would be in the future.

The ACO is the most obvious one, Le Mans fields are always technically diverse, with as little controversy as could be reasonably expected when it comes to handling equivalence formulae and such. Not that they are perfect but compared to the FIA's recent form, well...

Having said that, they probably (and quite rightly from their POV) have no interest in anything outside of sportscars. And more critically no experience of anything outside of sportscars. Plus they've dipped their toe in the waters of spec racing with the "Formula Le Mans" initiative.

[UltimateDanGTR]

This thread is a great oppurtunity to show my dream:

My Dream: An open wheel motor racing series that envasages what everybody interested in motorposrts wants: excitement, innovation, variety, global competition, close racing....The Ultimate Racing Championship.

The Name: Formula X Grand Prix World Championship

16 teams, all battling it out. A GLOBAL RACE. races on every continent, a true 20-race WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP.

The Teams and the Fans have it THEIR WAY. The teams can compete cheaply, the fans can spectate cheaply.

technology is very unrestricted, V12 engines, inginuity at its height. big manurfacturers enter, aswell as independent teams.

Formula X Grand Prix World Championship: Everything you could want in motor racing. in one WORLD RACE.

the very height of motorsport.

managed by the FXGPA (formula X grand prix association). FIA-less.
Bernie-less.

AND A SAFE BRITISH FORMULA X GRAND PRIX

Formula X Grand Prix World Championship: The best championship, in the world............

[Sonic]

If carlsberg made F1 championships!

[UltimateDanGTR]

who would support this format?:

16 teams each with 2 cars. There are 2 qualifying sessions on the saturday. The first qualifying session decides the grid for feature race 1. the second qualifying session decides the grid for feature race 2. only the top 26 cars in each qualifying session qualify for the respective feature race.

Before the two sunday feature races are 2 sprint races. the first sprint race features the top 20 cars in qualifying 1, and the 6 non-qualifying cars. the grid is in reverse to how they qualified for the feature race. exactly the same principle for sprint race 2 and the grid. both sprint races have a 15-12-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 points scoring system. both sprint races last for 15 laps. no refuelling in these races allowed.

Both feature races last for 30-35 laps (depending on track length etc). scoring system is 25-20-16-14-12-11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 for first 16 drivers.

many of you may be thinking that this abandons all tradition of Formula 1, but if it was an FIA-less series with a different name (Formula X Grand Prix World Championship springs to mind) then we are starting again, and so can make a race weekend as exciting as possible. :)

I know

[Sonic]

Quite like your suggested weekend format. I think if it were me I would want the qual to only count for the two sprint races only - the aggregate results of those making up the grid for just one "feature" race of one hour duration.

We could also have a B final for the slowest cars.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Quite like your suggested weekend format. I think if it were me I would want the qual to only count for the two sprint races only - the aggregate results of those making up the grid for just one "feature" race of one hour duration.

We could also have a B final for the slowest cars.

I disagree. I think qualifying for the feature races should normal, as the feature races have more points. I think the sprint races should have reverse grids to give the slower teams a chance, and the sprint races have less points awarded so I think this works out as fair.

after a rethink the other day, I decided that the two feature races should be different. The first feature race should be about 30 laps long, (maximum duration 1 hour). Then, there should be a main feature race, which should last about 40 laps, (maximum duration 80 mins). Basically, this is like 'The Main Event', the 'big one' if you like.

also, I noticed that on my reverse grid format in the sprint races the 6 feature race-non qualifiers start at the front of the sprint race, which actually rewards the non qualifiers of the feature race more than the qualifiers of the feature race. So in each sprint race, only the top 20 qualifiers from feature race qualifying are reversed in their sprint race grid placing, and then behind them is the 6 cars that failed to qualify for the feature, and so race in the sprint instead. (last 6 qualifiers in each feature race qualifying session do not race in the sprints)

sprint races to last 15 laps, maximum duration of 30mins

anyway, I was thinking about weekend race scheduals, I decided to have all the races on sunday because it will give the fans a fantastic day of racing action, all in one formula, like so:

10.20am Cars sent out onto grid in order
10.30am Sprint Race 1 Start
11.05am Trophy Presentation
11.20am Cars sent out of pits onto grid in order
11.30am Sprint Race 2 Start
12.05am Trophy Presentation
12.20am Cars sent out onto grid in order
12.30pm First Feature Race Start
13.35pm Trophy Presentation
14.00pm Cars sent out onto grid
14.30pm Main Feature Race Start
16.00pm Trophy Presentation

[Sonic]

With your rethink you have corrected some of the reasons I suggested a change. I did seem a bit unfair that the slowest of the slow got pole for a sprint and could have potentially won the sprint on a street track like Monaco. I also proposed just a solo feature as your original theory had no "main event".

Now all you need are teams, cars, drivers, sponsors etc.

[UltimateDanGTR]

as well as a real governing body, some advertising and some race contracts! :D

I know its a dream, But you never know...............

[Sonic]

Well I'll come out of retirement and sign up.

[52Paddy]

That is the million dollar question and possibly why it hasn't already happened already, I'm just wondering how feasible such a scenario would be in the future.


It depends on how many people feel this way. What percentage of people involved in F1 directly (teams, sponsors, stewards etc) and indirectly (fans) are fed up with the current system? Its a rhetorical question obviously but if a big chunk of us feel this way, then sooner or later a brainwave will hit somebody. Who? I don't know. I think it will be someone from inside F1 itself. Not necessarily from the FIA. Maybe Luca DiM? Or at least someone with a 'fed-up' attitude.

[ArrowsFA1]

who would support this format?
I wouldn't ever want to see F1 adopt the sprint/feature race format. It may work in touring cars and other series, but F1 is about the Grand Prix - that one race - for me.

[52Paddy]

I wouldn't ever want to see F1 adopt the sprint/feature race format. It may work in touring cars and other series, but F1 is about the Grand Prix - that one race - for me.

I agree. Though Mr Dan's dream wasn't for F1 to be that way. It would be a new series.

Still, we all have our own dreams and my approach would be a good deal different Dan.

[AndyRAC]

I wouldn't ever want to see F1 adopt the sprint/feature race format. It may work in touring cars and other series, but F1 is about the Grand Prix - that one race - for me.

I'd agree!! 1 race only....

[ShiftingGears]

who would support this format?:

Definitely not me.

[Knock-on]

Circuits need to have FIA accreditation. National events can be managed by the countries national motorsport body but international events must come under the juristiction of the FIA.

For example, GP2 is Bernies series with no rulebook from the FIA but has to adhear to FIA sporting regs, licences, governance etc.

Formula X could, and may well break away from F1 but will still need to be goverened by the FIA. It may be just Safety and Sporting regs to start with but ultimatly, they will take control through different inititives.

Max needs to control whatever the pinnacle of motorsport is. He will go down with the ship because he would rather be a drowning man than lose that control which he has long aspired to.

[Sonic]

Do they though? In a previous post I suggested that IRL has no ties to the FIA at all. They certainly are mostly a national championship but also run abroad. Do the FIA have any say in what happens over the pond?

If not then Dan can take his ideas over there..... :)

[UltimateDanGTR]

How can FIA assume they have control over every motorsport? FIFA for example, they govern most football and organise the world cup etc, but they dont take over every single competition or national team,for example there is a non-fifa teams world cup. they cant take over everything.

Rugby, another example. There is rugby union, and rugby league. 2 different sets of rules, two different governing bodies, lots of different competitions, eg two different world cups.

One asscosciation cant assume they have the right to control everything. thats why i would set up a rival asscoscation, different rules, different people etc. and if the FIA tried to assume the right to control FXGP, everyone would ignore them. maybe they could set up a little tent outside the race track on raceday and say 'we are incharge' then everyone can laugh at them, as per the norm.

I mean it would be like me trying to take over the whole world of sport just because I set up the one-man-strong World Sport Asscosciation, everyone would ignore me wouldnt they?

The FIA are not the be all and end all of motorsport. they have no right to take over whatever they damnwell please. then theyd be like the nazis (no pun intended there with max!)


also, It seems that alot of the 'fans' wouldnt be happy with a 4-race weekend thing, so maybe the 1 race thing will be best, whatever the fans want.

unless we have 2 parralell series that run on the same weekend, Formula X Grand Prix World Series (4-race per weekend series) and the World Race Superformula Series (1-race weekend)

[Knock-on]

To play Rugby, you need a field and there are plenty of them.

To have a race, you need a race track which needs to have certain criteria and standards depending on what type of racing you want to host.

FXGP can build and race their own circuits but I suspect they will not. They will have to race on circuits that are accredited by the FIA and abide by those regulations.

[V12]

Circuits need to have FIA accreditation. National events can be managed by the countries national motorsport body but international events must come under the juristiction of the FIA.

For example, GP2 is Bernies series with no rulebook from the FIA but has to adhear to FIA sporting regs, licences, governance etc.

Formula X could, and may well break away from F1 but will still need to be goverened by the FIA. It may be just Safety and Sporting regs to start with but ultimatly, they will take control through different inititives.

Max needs to control whatever the pinnacle of motorsport is. He will go down with the ship because he would rather be a drowning man than lose that control which he has long aspired to.


This is pretty much the answer I was looking for, I just knew there'd be some sticking point regarding a complete FIA breakaway, otherwise it would either have been done or seriously attempted already.

So for complete and total FIA independence any governing body would need to build its own tracks, buy them, or get the track owners on-side (probably to the detriment of that track's existing activities, i.e. not going to happen?)

[Knock-on]

This is pretty much the answer I was looking for, I just knew there'd be some sticking point regarding a complete FIA breakaway, otherwise it would either have been done or seriously attempted already.

So for complete and total FIA independence any governing body would need to build its own tracks, buy them, or get the track owners on-side (probably to the detriment of that track's existing activities, i.e. not going to happen?)

In a nutshell, yes.

[UltimateDanGTR]

and that is why the FIA can make motorsport fans very annoyed.
For ever......

[woody2goody]

I like Dan's idea for Formula X.

My ideal championship would be:

Similar tech regs to the new F1. Customer cars are allowed but must use a different engine than the selling team.

Up to 40 cars enter qualifying - field is split in half for Q1.

26 cars enter the race, which is 200 miles or 2 hrs. Wet races can be extended by the race director by 10 mins if they wish.

Tyre changes and refuelling are permitted.

Points for the top 10 as follows: 15-12-10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 plus one for fastest lap and 2 for pole position.

It would be a true world championship on all the continents. there would be 23 races in the season, which starts in March and ends in November.

[52Paddy]

there would be 23 races in the season, which starts in March and ends in November.

I always preferred the more compact season myself. 17 races always seemed the ideal amount for me, the championship running from March to October and nicely spread out.

[woody2goody]

I always preferred the more compact season myself. 17 races always seemed the ideal amount for me, the championship running from March to October and nicely spread out.

I guess I just like to have as many races as possible! :)

I'd have a GP every weekend of the year if I could. I wouldn't get bored either lol.

[yodasarmpit]

And any new FIA would just be like the current FIA, liked by some, disliked by others.
They will have to make decisions that some will agree with and other won't.

What you are looking for are rule changes, don't even for one second think that this forum wouldn't be filled with people calling for their heads, regardless of who was in charge.

[V12]

My absolute ideal sort of racing would be some sort of Formula Libre "run what you brung" format where any motorised land vehicle that fits within a theoretical 3D box would be eligible, with no prize money paid, but instead starting money divided up equally to every single competitor that qualifies for any given race. Combined with a no-frills race weekend format, with a single race, cars lining up in order of fastest practice times, and that's it. And racing on classic circuits. Admittedly that is an ideal and a pipe dream but I really would like to see some sort of compromise that allows for multiple makes of car, engine and tyre to compete at all levels of the sport, even with appropriate restrictions at lower levels.

Yoda makes a good point, but while it's certainly true you can't please all of the people all of the time, the FIA have made a really good fist at p**ing off all of the people, all of the time :)

[anthonyvop]

Do they though? In a previous post I suggested that IRL has no ties to the FIA at all.

you are wrong.

The IRL is a member of Automobile Competition Committee for the United States(ACCUS) which is the FIA representative of U.S.

The other members of ACCUS are Grand-Am, IMSA, USAC, NASCAR, NHRA, SCCA, and WKA (affiliate member).

http://www.accusfia.us/

As the international Governing body of the sport the FIA can cause all kinds of havoc to any breakaway series.
They could remove FIA acredidation of any racetrack that holds an event. this could cost them huge revenue loss.
They can also revoke the license of any driver participating which would prevent them from competing in any other series.

[Knock-on]

you are wrong.

The IRL is a member of Automobile Competition Committee for the United States(ACCUS) which is the FIA representative of U.S.

The other members of ACCUS are Grand-Am, IMSA, USAC, NASCAR, NHRA, SCCA, and WKA (affiliate member).

http://www.accusfia.us/

As the international Governing body of the sport the FIA can cause all kinds of havoc to any breakaway series.
They could remove FIA acredidation of any racetrack that holds an event. this could cost them huge revenue loss.
They can also revoke the license of any driver participating which would prevent them from competing in any other series.

Totally agree. It's impossible to set up a series without the cooperation of the FIA.

It can have technical regulations independant of the FIA such as GP2 (although they will not like this and would cause severe issues) but would still be governed by the FIA.

Trying to set up a series without sanction of the FIA would be like me declaring my house and property an independent state; theoretically possible but totally unrealistic.

[Sonic]

you are wrong.

The IRL is a member of Automobile Competition Committee for the United States(ACCUS) which is the FIA representative of U.S.

The other members of ACCUS are Grand-Am, IMSA, USAC, NASCAR, NHRA, SCCA, and WKA (affiliate member).

http://www.accusfia.us/

As the international Governing body of the sport the FIA can cause all kinds of havoc to any breakaway series.
They could remove FIA acredidation of any racetrack that holds an event. this could cost them huge revenue loss.
They can also revoke the license of any driver participating which would prevent them from competing in any other series.

Cool. Good to know. I googled that for ages but couldn't find an answer.

So really the only option is to hold formula x on mars then ;)

And any new FIA would just be like the current FIA, liked by some, disliked by others.
They will have to make decisions that some will agree with and other won't.


Amen, brother.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Cool. Good to know. I googled that for ages but couldn't find an answer.

So really the only option is to hold formula x on mars then ;)

Mars Here We Come! :D

yet another rethink, what about same format as I have already proposed, except the the second feature race lasts for a bit longer, more like current F1 races. This race then becomes known as the Formula X Grand Prix, and in the Formula X Grand Prix World Championship only the Grand Prix race at each round counts towards that championship. then there is the Formula X Grand Race World Championship, in which all 4 races of each weekend at each round counts towards that championship. The FXGP world championship can be more presitigious, but a seperate trophy can go for the FXGR world champion, less prestigious but still an honour. Then, if someone wins both, they get a special trophy only awarded to winners of both, with a good foreign name like Copa Grand Formula X or something poncey like that.

then everybody is happy.

And if it has to be run by the FIA, Ill make sure im in charge of FX Managment, or in chrage of the FIA, or both to make things simplur and become on entity in the FIA's Formula X division.

[Knock-on]

OK, here is the new Formula X rule book.

You have 1/2 litre of fuel per km for a race reducing 5% per year over a 5 year timescale and develop what you want as long as it passes crash and safety tests.

You can use turbos, Nos, KERS, Solar or connect the drivers ass up to a methane tank if you want to get the best out of the car. The fuel can be petrol, diesel or LPG.

Simples :D