£40 million budget cap announced

[Mark]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/default.stm

[F1boat]

I'm very relaxed now. After two sensible decisions by the FIA (the diffuser three and McLaren liegate) now we are back to normality with a new crazy rule.

[pino]

Montezemolo will be very mad about this...wait and see ;)

[Mark]

Lets face it though, any one of us could live like kings (of a small European country at least) for the rest of our lives on £40 million (and I think it's pounds, not dollars).

So if you can't do a years racing on 40 million, then it's a bit of bad job!

[DexDexter]

Lets face it though, any one of us could live like kings (of a small European country at least) for the rest of our lives on £40 million (and I think it's pounds, not dollars).

So if you can't do a years racing on 40 million, then it's a bit of bad job!

And add to that the drivers salaries, commercial side, engine costs (2010). We are talking about a cap close to 100 million euros....I don't know...what I don't want to see is a two-division championship.

[Knock-on]

Lets face it though, any one of us could live like kings (of a small European country at least) for the rest of our lives on £40 million (and I think it's pounds, not dollars).

So if you can't do a years racing on 40 million, then it's a bit of bad job!

The bar bill for my birthday came to more than £40m. It's allright for you Northerners with your cheap pie n pint prices ;)

[Mark]

And add to that the drivers salaries, commercial side, engine costs (2010). We are talking about a cap close to 100 million euros....I don't know...what I don't want to see is a two-division championship.

Plus anything which "Any expenditure the team can demonstrate has no influence on its performance in the championship". That looks like a nice big loophole big enough to drive an entire F1 team through the middle of.

[pino]

Lets face it though, any one of us could live like kings (of a small European country at least) for the rest of our lives on £40 million (and I think it's pounds, not dollars).

So if you can't do a years racing on 40 million, then it's a bit of bad job!

Mark, £40 million ar just enough to pay the employeers and all transferts for the entire season...how about the car ?

[SGWilko]

Well look. The drivers can be salaried through personal sponsorship deals.

Design and build your good car, with all bells and whistles for £30m, get a Merc motor supply for £5m, and £5m for ongoing development.

By jove, I think I've cracked it......

[Mark]

Mark, £40 million ar just enough to pay the employeers and all transferts for the entire season...how about the car ?

£40,000,000 over 18 races gives £2.2million per race. If it really takes that much to get the team to every race then they are being seriously overcharged!

[DexDexter]

Plus anything which "Any expenditure the team can demonstrate has no influence on its performance in the championship". That looks like a nice big loophole big enough to drive an entire F1 team through the middle of.

I'm very sceptical about the polishing of the cap, if anyone wants to cheat, it's relatively easy and quite impossible to find that out.

[ArrowsFA1]

Essentially the budget cap allows the FIA to tweak the rules as and when it pleases until everyone signs up to the budget cap. Initially, if teams have not signed up to it then their performance will be restricted until they are being beaten by those who have signed up.

:down:

[CNR]

should be word on the 3 new teams for next year
but will they enter if the budget is 10 million more

[I am evil Homer]

Adjustable front and rear wings and no rev limit.....not sure how that's going to cut costs.

Nice to see Point #3 that the cap "doesn't include fines" :D

[Mark]

should be word on the 3 new teams for next year
but will they enter if the budget is 10 million more

Considering were talking £40 millions vs say £200 million then it's going to make a big difference.

[wedge]

Considering were talking £40 millions vs say £200 million then it's going to make a big difference.

Not to mention 20 economy seats for every race for free. Flavio will be delighted!

[pino]

£40,000,000 over 18 races gives £2.2million per race. If it really takes that much to get the team to every race then they are being seriously overcharged!

I meant all Team employeers not just lorry drivers :p :

[I am evil Homer]

Well there will also be fewer team members if re-fuelling is scrapped and potentially tyre chnages too.

[Sleeper]

Well look. The drivers can be salaried through personal sponsorship deals.

Design and build your good car, with all bells and whistles for £30m, get a Merc motor supply for £5m, and £5m for ongoing development.

By jove, I think I've cracked it......
What about employe salaries, fuel and lubricants, tyres, catering, transport?

Force India and Toro Rosso are the only teams that might sign up to it, no one else could shrink that fast and still operate as a quality team.

[Garry Walker]

Good luck policing it. Idiots.

[philipbain]

I think the budget cap is a good concept, perhaps it will stem the ludicrousness of F1 in recent years, involvement from the big manufacturers has seen extravagance spiral and spiral completely unchecked, in 2010 when the budget capped teams start thrashing the big budget teams due to the more efficient use of thier resources and greater technical freedoms on the car i'm sure it will force the hand of the vast majority to also be "cost contained". Bingo - F1 starts to grow again, rather than shrivelling team by team. As for the manufacturers I feel there are maybe 2 or 3 on the verge of pulling out anyway as the economic situation only worsens, so this move is likely to save F1. If you can't run an F1 team for around £50 million per year (as the cap excludes several items which tend to be pricy, so in reality even capped teams will end up spending £50-60 million) then there is something seriously wrong. It also opens opportunities for new entrants as they can structure for a capped budget from the start rather than having to go through the upheaval of re-strcuturing to make the savings required. Add in the ban on refuelling and tyre warmers and F1 2010 will be something different again.

[AndyL]

The budget cap seems to have the same loop-hole as the so-called engine freeze. You could modify your engine, but not to increase performance... and what do you know, after a couple of years of Ferrari, Mercedes and BMW making "reliability" improvements, Renault find themselves 60 horsepower behind. Similarly you'll be able to spend money outside the budget cap if it's not connected to increasing performance.
If a team refits their factory then claims it outside the cap because it was to improve employee safety, the FIA's committee might have a hard time demonstrating whether they increased manufacturing capacity as well.

[truefan72]

And add to that the drivers salaries, commercial side, engine costs (2010). We are talking about a cap close to 100 million euros....I don't know...what I don't want to see is a two-division championship.

me too, and those willing to accept the cap will get a 2x more powerful KERS system, further causing a performance division between the two camps. This will truly make for a 2-tiered racing league. Teams like McLaren and Ferrari will be able to stay withing the budget gap and figure out a way to account for everthing else as ancillary costs.Either they go ahead and make all the teams comply to the budget or they abandon it completely and figure out another way.

My suggestion would be to abandon it completely as all the teams are relatively close anyway in performance, and revise the whole travel expense system that they have in order to aid the smaller teams. As well as doing what the NBA does with their Luxury tax system; whereby teaams are taxed a higher rate on the dollars that they are over the agreed upon budget ceiling.

[christophulus]

If the rules are stable for the foreseeable future then I reckon it'll work. No major redesigns needed, just a steady evolution.

Engines are frozen for another five years, and I don't think any major companies will pay (e.g.) £50m for sponsoring BMW, McLaren etc when they can get title sponsorship of a smaller (and potentially more successful) team for £5m under the budget cap.

I reckon everyone will end up capped to some extent within a couple of years once this goes through. The "free-spending" teams won't last for too many years if they don't accept the terms.

[ArrowsFA1]

Force India (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74956):


"In principle Force India welcomes all cost cutting initiatives and budget caps, but we must fully investigate and understand the implications of the current measures proposed by both the FIA and FOTA. We will review the proposal internally and within the next FOTA meeting scheduled for Wednesday 6 May and until this point it would be inappropriate to comment further."

Ferrari (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74956):

"With regards to the press release put out by the FIA on the day after the WMSC meeting, at the moment, Ferrari does not intend to make any comment on the matter."

McLaren (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74953):

"As a member of FOTA, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes is of course supportive of FOTA's recent efforts to reduce costs in Formula 1. Equally, we recognise the excellent work done recently by the FIA in the area of cost-reduction...we believe that the optimal solution - which may or may not include a budget cap, but which ideally would not encompass a two-tier regulatory framework - is most likely to be arrived at via measured negotiation between all parties."

Williams (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74955):

"Williams has supported the introduction of a budget cap since the idea was first put forward early in 2008. Since then FOTA has made tremendous steps forward on costs but the rationale for a budget cap has also grown even stronger. We would like to see all the teams operating to one set of regulations and under a budget cap in 2010 and that is the position we will be advocating within FOTA when we meet next week."

[leopard]

The discourse can be translated like this, the rule doesn't mention maximum limit of the budget cap, it may suggest team not to exceed certain fair amount of budget for all their expenditure. Budget might not be an issue for some teams and could be the main issue for the rest.

In the mean time an independent audit will be formed responsible to value and observe progress of how teams have spent the said budget.
The results are to be published periodically. This will motivate teams who have spent big amount of budget if they have poor performance to find out solution without having to refund more money.

This is not to interfere teams affairs internally, but rather it helps monitoring which teams are financially health or not health to determine further step to save the teams and the race itself.

[Mark]

The discourse can be translated like this, the rule doesn't mention maximum limit of the budget cap, .

I thought it was in the thread title?

[SGWilko]

What about employe salaries, fuel and lubricants, tyres, catering, transport?

Force India and Toro Rosso are the only teams that might sign up to it, no one else could shrink that fast and still operate as a quality team.

Engines are not included so it now transpires, so that's freed up £5m straigh away. Fuel and lubricants the supplier gets free sponsorship for the supply....

Where there is a will......

[ArrowsFA1]

Luca has spoken about the budget cap and Max has responded:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74969

This Two-Tier "issue" is bollocks.

""There are on the other hand doubts as to whether or not two categories of teams should be created which will inevitably mean that one category will have an advantage over the other and that the championship will be fundamentally unfair and, perhaps, even biased"

So says Luca.

Well, Luca, i know you were busy with a World Cup, but I remember the Jim Clark trophy for 3.5litre normally aspirated cars in the last years of the turbos.....running a 3.5litre N/A car was effectively being in the second tier, but nobody gave a toss about it then.

There has always been a two tiers to F1. At the very least. Sometimes there have been a hell of a lot more.

The Budget Cap may well be unworkable, and those concerns are right to be expressed, but anybody whingeing about a two-tier system is just upset that they might, for once, end up in the second tier.

Actually, the way the scuderia are shaping, we're already there.

[Knock-on]

This Two-Tier "issue" is bollocks.

Totally agree. However, Max isn't going to let a 2 tier championship exist. He will make it impossible for the teams not signing up to the limit to compete.

Already, if you have 2000 more RPM than the limited teams and unlimited Kers, you will destroy them so why spend £100m on a car that cannot compete.

[DexDexter]

Totally agree. However, Max isn't going to let a 2 tier championship exist. He will make it impossible for the teams not signing up to the limit to compete.

Already, if you have 2000 more RPM than the limited teams and unlimited Kers, you will destroy them so why spend £100m on a car that cannot compete.

An interesting thing is where are they going to get engines that rev to 20 000 rpm and last for a number of races, engine development is frozen right? And how are those budget-capped teams going to develop an even more powerful KERS when even people with money can't seem to make it work now. I see this as a starting point for negotiations. EDIT: So they can use as many engines as they want but still whose going to supply those?

[jens]

Funnily enough, some new rules are totally against the agenda FIA has had for years. For example - keeping the speed of cars in check and reducing them in every opportunity (grooves, V8's, lack of aero, etc). Now with movable wings, more powerful KERS and non rev-limited engines the speeds are going to rise in incredible rate. Well, the advantages for capped teams in car development are actually so big that I suspect they are going to beat the richer teams anyway. But that's what FIA probably aims - everyone to agree with £40m limit.

Another problematic issue - without rev-limit there is no way a driver can make a season through with 8 engines... Cost-cutting? Hmm...

Sure enough we will have a lot more judicial processes next year and accusations, who is cheating and who is not. What will happen with RBR/STR? By the way, isn't it an ideal scenario to have one team outside budget cap and other one inside? For example RBR develops a good racing car with 200M and then under the name of STR they do extra testing and add special wings for 40M. The result: a supercar. Anyway, wherever we have a partnership (like Toyota & Williams), there will be something suspicious going on.

By the way, what about FOM's money for WCC positions? Doesn't the champion team earn something like 80M? That's already way above the budget cap limit...

[CNR]

i think a lot of money could be saved by using a f1 control tub
http://www.f1technical.net/articles/mech/images/chass.gif

this would save the teams the money that gets wasted on crash testing and still give the teams a platform to work with

[CNR]

http://i40.tinypic.com/zko215.jpg

[wmcot]

By the way, what about FOM's money for WCC positions? Doesn't the champion team earn something like 80M? That's already way above the budget cap limit...

They'll be spending that on the armies of "forensic accountants" (bean counters) who they will be paying to police the budget cap!

[Knock-on]

An interesting thing is where are they going to get engines that rev to 20 000 rpm and last for a number of races, engine development is frozen right?

20k isn't that much. It's limited through the ECU these days but could run at 20k quite easily.

Also, they can have as many engines as they want and change them between qualifying and the race. The FIA will supply a standard engine for a silly price that all teams will have to copy or buy from the winning tender.


And how are those budget-capped teams going to develop an even more powerful KERS when even people with money can't seem to make it work now. I see this as a starting point for negotiations. EDIT: So they can use as many engines as they want but still whose going to supply those?

A more powerful KERS isn't hard. The problem with KERS is the FIA limited it soooo much this year to make it almost irrelevant. Even if you take off the amount of energy you can use per lap, the exsisting systems will be hugely more effective.

[DexDexter]

A more powerful KERS isn't hard. The problem with KERS is the FIA limited it soooo much this year to make it almost irrelevant. Even if you take off the amount of energy you can use per lap, the exsisting systems will be hugely more effective.

But who is going to develop KERS when there is a budget cap? Some estimate that it has cost 20 million euros to some teams already....I was a team manager and had KERS, I wouldn't sell it if there was a budget cap.

[CNR]

Motor racing-Super Aguri mull return to F1 'piranha club'
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssAutoTruckManufacturers/idUST19502120090506


TOKYO, May 6 (Reuters) - Japan's Super Aguri could be set for a surprise return to Formula One in 2010, after withdrawing a year ago due to financial difficulties.
Former Super Aguri team chief Aguri Suzuki told the Sankei Sports newspaper on Wednesday that he was tempted to rejoin the sport he once labelled a "club full of piranhas".
"If it's physically possible I would certainly like to (return to Formula One)," Suzuki said.
Super Aguri quit the glamour sport after a promised major sponsorship deal collapsed and backers Honda were not prepared to offer long-term support.
The sport's governing body FIA has since set an optional cap of 40 million pounds on teams to allow entrants that might otherwise struggle to compete against big-spenders like Ferrari and McLaren

[Koz]

If this does happen, no problem. Development won't slow too much. Money laundering will just skyrocket in F1.

More corruption, that's all.

Accountants can come up ideas that save millions in taxes, which they hide from the government, I am sure the FIA will be as easy, if not easier to fool.

This is the most expensive sport in the world isn't it?

And if corruption does happen in this case, you will see that it will play much better into the hands of teams with big bucks.

Money is power, and it's always there, even if you can't see it.

[leopard]

F1 is just basically an expensive sport, involving a lot of money, it requires huge budget to develop a competitive car. Toyota for instance, has spent great deal of money seen as attempt to be victorious. The result is just not yet incorporated. Presumption of innocence please. ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Why should the teams have to give the FIA unlimited access to their accounts, which is what is being required here?

Is this really about cost cutting or does it simply give Max more power over the teams in terms of information; information that could be useful in the ongoing battle with FOTA?

[veeten]

the possible return of... Super Aguri?

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=37793

[Knock-on]

Why should the teams have to give the FIA unlimited access to their accounts, which is what is being required here?

Is this really about cost cutting or does it simply give Max more power over the teams in terms of information; information that could be useful in the ongoing battle with FOTA?

I think you're right mate.

I understand there are some sports that have budget caps but I don't know how they work. However, I would imagine they are pure sports companies to start with. How will companies like Toyota, Ferrari and BMW feel about having the FIA stomping over their accounts?

[555-04Q2]

Knockie, your siggy is 100% correct. It will take Button another 18000 years to win a WDC :p :

[555-04Q2]

Why should the teams have to give the FIA unlimited access to their accounts, which is what is being required here?

Is this really about cost cutting or does it simply give Max more power over the teams in terms of information; information that could be useful in the ongoing battle with FOTA?

While I agree with you, it is a catch 22 situation. Without access to teams trading accounts, how do you police the budget spend of teams. I'm against outside sources viewing companies accounts, but I dont see any other way for the FIA to police it. If left up to the teams, they will spend 400 million while maintaining that they only spent 40 million.

There must be a better way to police the budget cap.

[ArrowsFA1]

There must be a better way to police the budget cap.
Not have one? :p

[Knock-on]

Knockie, your siggy is 100% correct. It will take Button another 18000 years to win a WDC :p :

I think Pino must have changed it ;)

[CNR]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-1183404/Ferrari-sit-season-insist-F1-chiefs-Ecclestone-Mosley.html


And while Mosley is adamant that next year’s championship will be governed by a £40million budget cap — which excludes engine costs, driver salaries, motor homes, marketing and promotion — it is apparent that the final figure, or further concessions
from within the set limit, are still open to negotiation.
Originally, Mosley had offered enhanced technical performance to those who accepted his budget cap while the teams who opted to remain outside this financial constraint
would be handcuffed by more stringent regulations.
Ecclestone acted as arbitrator in the negotiations to remove this primary obstacle to peace. ‘The two-tier system is out the window,’ said Ecclestone. ‘I always thought that was a bit stupid.
It was important to get rid of it. ‘There has been an agreement in principal. Everyone is happy with a budget cap, it’s just a case of working out the amount. I am confident all the teams will still be racing next year.’
Sir Frank Williams heads for Monaco and next Sunday’s Grand Prix convinced the storm is almost blown out. ‘We still have work to do among ourselves,’ said Williams. ‘But I can’t see anyone not being prepared to race next year.’
Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo, chairman of the Formula One Teams’
Association, missed the meeting in London to attend the funeral of his father.
But any threat of a serious rebellion emanating from within the ranks vanished when FOTA deputy chairman, John Howett from Toyota, tried to coerce a walk-out. Mosley explained: ‘Quite early on, Howett said 'We are not going to talk about the budget cap'.

[markabilly]

rumor has it ferrari is headed to court to eforce some veto power on the cap and 2010 rules, apprently part of their secret benfits bt signing the concord

[wmcot]

rumor has it ferrari is headed to court to eforce some veto power on the cap and 2010 rules, apprently part of their secret benfits bt signing the concord

I don't care how Ferrari or anyone else does it as long as they remove Mad Max and the Evil Dr. Ecclestein from their dictatorships. (Maybe we need a military overthrow of the government of F1?)

[Knock-on]

Well, it looks like it's all settleing down as it always does.

Dual regulations has been dropped and there will be agreement on a budget cap although the FIA won't have inspectors trampleing all over companies books and will rely, instead, on accounts submitted by the teams.

So, business as normal :)

Not quite.....

We have some very strong language flying about with Bernie calling Ferrari "idiots" and Max putting their nose severly out of joint by his "who cares" attitude. Then we have Bernie coming out and saying basically that F1 must pander to Ferrari and Ferrari themselves taking the FIA to court because the FIA were going to do something they didn't like.

We all knew that the FIA and FOM favoured Ferrari financially but this is the first proof we have that they give Ferrari technical powers within the rules of the sport over the other teams.

I think the fall out from this hasn't started yet.

[SGWilko]

Well, it looks like it's all settleing down as it always does.

Dual regulations has been dropped and there will be agreement on a budget cap although the FIA won't have inspectors trampleing all over companies books and will rely, instead, on accounts submitted by the teams.

So, business as normal :)

Not quite.....

We have some very strong language flying about with Bernie calling Ferrari "idiots" and Max putting their nose severly out of joint by his "who cares" attitude. Then we have Bernie coming out and saying basically that F1 must pander to Ferrari and Ferrari themselves taking the FIA to court because the FIA were going to do something they didn't like.

We all knew that the FIA and FOM favoured Ferrari financially but this is the first proof we have that they give Ferrari technical powers within the rules of the sport over the other teams.

I think the fall out from this hasn't started yet.

I quite agree. I do think that the FIA have been a little too blase in respect of the importance to F1 of Ferrari. Bernie, as usual, is blowing hot and cold. But they have both showed themselves as bafoons.

I do not think that the other teams would be too upset that Ferrari have a technical reg veto clause, so long as they do not dictate the regs, all is OK with me.

In all honesty, all this talk from Max and Bernie can only serve now to strengthen FOTA.

All the teams know Max needs to go. So does Bernie because he holds F1 with such a tight financial leash that is now proving harmful to the sport.

Still, there's 'nowt as queer as folk'.......

[markabilly]

Not so sure, it is over, I think the lawyers are circling like buzzards, looking for road kill............................
thank god, what we would do without lawyers to bring interest and excitement back into the sport...

[Knock-on]

In theory, I think that £40m is a adequate figure to build and operate a car.

Drivers salery, marketing etc is not included so I don't think there is a real problem.

The big issue as I see it is that it's unenforceable. The opportunity to exceed the cap and not be detected is obvious and abuse of the rules will be more widespread than in the house of Parliment.

Max knows this and will have written it in such a way because he wants to control F1. He will allow abuse to take place unless he decides to crack down on a team for whatever reason. It may be that he has a grudge against someone or it may be he wants to favour a different team and driver. He knows he can get away with it because he already has but this gives him more of a hand of God.

Budget caps cannot work and must be scrapped. Some things can be done but not this.

[Bagwan]

Well , whodathunkit ?
Ferrari using thier super-powers for good instead of evil ?

The secret deal backsfires on Max and Bernie , and the reds hold the aces .

They were supposed to be too busy hiding thier budgets that they wouldn't notice the goofy rule changes and short deadline .

But , alas , the changes were too goofy , and they had time to think for a moment .
FOTA changes everything , and Max's dismissal of the rule suggestions they made early on , was enough to cement the relationship between the teams .

Two-tier was too goofy , and Ferrari can now lead the series towards a more positive future .
It was a master stroke to make that secret deal , and though they took a lot of stick for it when they did , they are now heroes in the fight .

It is not F1 that needs Ferrari , as much as it is the teams of F1 that need them .

[wmcot]

In theory, I think that £40m is a adequate figure to build and operate a car.

Drivers salery, marketing etc is not included so I don't think there is a real problem.

The big issue as I see it is that it's unenforceable. The opportunity to exceed the cap and not be detected is obvious and abuse of the rules will be more widespread than in the house of Parliment.

Max knows this and will have written it in such a way because he wants to control F1. He will allow abuse to take place unless he decides to crack down on a team for whatever reason. It may be that he has a grudge against someone or it may be he wants to favour a different team and driver. He knows he can get away with it because he already has but this gives him more of a hand of God.

Budget caps cannot work and must be scrapped. Some things can be done but not this.

I totally agree. £40m is enough to run a team "in theory," but what happens when a team develops a novel idea that would make them more competitive, but would put them over the cap? Are they supposed to shelve an idea that might win them the WDC or WCC because Max has determined that they can't afford it? Maybe they should just sack a hundred employees or more so they have a chance to win under Max's budget?

Max needs to be taken down and his budget used for toilet paper!

[SGWilko]

The whole budget cap thing is a smokescreen. What it all boils down to is the teams (FOTA) want control of their sport.

In these financially crippling times - for the manufacturers at least - it happens to be convenient that, if necessary, they can use this as an excuse to leave....

[jens]

With recent news like the potential newcomers may not join F1 at all due to uncertainty, Max's negotiation position is getting weaker. But still it would be surprising to see him "losing" the battle, usually he wins. :p :

[wmcot]

Max's negotiation position is getting weaker. But still it would be surprising to see him "losing" the battle, usually he wins. :p :

As they say, perhaps he'll win the battle, but lose the war. F1 will become a second-rate, spec series and nobody will watch it.

[DexDexter]

With recent news like the potential newcomers may not join F1 at all due to uncertainty, Max's negotiation position is getting weaker. But still it would be surprising to see him "losing" the battle, usually he wins. :p :

There has been a lot of talk about these newcomers but has anybody actually stated that that they have the "cap-budget" in place for next year? It's one thing to boast about coming to F1 but another thing to finance it, even with a budget cap. Has any of the potential new teams actually given any information on how they are going to finance it, the TV money/start up money etc. isn't going to be enough.

[pino]

Ferrari's appeal has been rejected according to ital media.

[CNR]

Q:is this a way for them to cut the tv money that the teams get
a good team with enough points could get more then the 40 million


Brawn GP look set to miss out on as much as £20m in prize money that was owed to the Honda team for their ninth-place finish last season.

not sure what 1 point is worth but honda had 14 points
any team with over 28 points would get 40 000 000

[veeten]

Ferrari's appeal has been rejected according to ital media.

Yup, and that's that... :D

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75442

Bring on the new teams. :D Boy, this room is getting pretty crowded...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75440

[SGWilko]

It's war I tell you, war...

It's FISA v FOCA all over again.

But look, some of the new entries are Mickey Mouse. Two Amayreeeecan teams, but with no home GP......??????

Lola - they were a joke last time around.........

Come on - let's see the Manufacturers and Ferrari start their own series.......

Bring it on!!!

[Knock-on]

I've been predicting war for the last 18 months. This is not over yet by a long chalk and Max will sink F1 rather than lose it :(

[Garry Walker]

Yup, and that's that... :D

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75442

Bring on the new teams. :D Boy, this room is getting pretty crowded...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75440

Why the smilie faces?
It is obvious you hate Ferrari, but it should be obvious to everyone that some comedy teams entering F1 will not interest anyone. If teams like Ferrari, BMW, Renault and so on will not be in F1 next year, I fail to see any reason to watch any races.

[Garry Walker]

I've been predicting war for the last 18 months. This is not over yet by a long chalk and Max will sink F1 rather than lose it :(

I supported mad max when the news of the world story broke, because I thought it was unfair to dump him for that, but now I am very dissapointed that Oswald did not insist on abortion.
The guy is a loon, nothing else

[Knock-on]

I supported mad max when the news of the world story broke, because I thought it was unfair to dump him for that, but now I am very dissapointed that Oswald did not insist on abortion.
The guy is a loon, nothing else

My view has never changed.

What Max does in his personal life, although distasteful, is his own personal choice as long as it's legal (query?)

However, I would have been glad if he was run out of the sport because of it because he's a danger to the sport.

My dislike of Max is purely because I can see him gradually building a dictatorship around him and ruleing F1 as he sees fit.

I have never been unhappier to be proved correct :(

[veeten]

Why the smilie faces?
It is obvious you hate Ferrari, but it should be obvious to everyone that some comedy teams entering F1 will not interest anyone.
No, not Ferrari per se, just the actions taken under the guise of 'for the sake of Formula 1, and its participants'. It has always been Ferrari first, then others when it suits their objectives. The separate deal with FIA, complete with veto powers, is one such an example.

Besides, where else are they going to go, hmm? LMS/ALMS?... where they can get stomped by the diesels of Audi & Peugeot, if not the others like Acura(Honda), that have a good 3+years development under their wheels? Or maybe the GT side, where they will have to split development time between the 430 and a possible 599/612 varient.

Maybe the IRL, except that they will have to supply at least a good number of teams with engines to equal what Honda has to deal with at present. Oh, and supply the maintenance plan for them, too.

... and since they don't make 2/4-door sedans, or pushrod engines, I guess that lets them out of NASCAR, doesn't it?

A1GP and other 'single make' series just doesn't have that 'ring' that 'the Pinacle of motorsport' has, now does it?


If teams like Ferrari, BMW, Renault and so on will not be in F1 next year, I fail to see any reason to watch any races.

Then, don't watch.
It never fails me to read how so many use this tactic, as if would actually affect change, only to find that; a) it is nothing more than self-serving whinning and b) it usually comes from those that have been watching F1 for 18+ years, usually during 'the Schumacher era'. Ask of anything before and it draws a blank, but that's not their fault. ;)

Manufacturers have come and gone from Formula 1, and for much lesser reasons than at present. I'm sure that lots of folks cried when Matra, Puegeot, and Alfa Romeo left just as much as when Honda bid 'Sayonara' last year.

The real reason why Ferrari and others in FOTA (mainly the auto manufacturer teams) are acting this way now is that they forsee the possibility of having to split the 'pie' in smaller amounts with the influx of new teams coming, even as the 'pie' itself is getting smaller due to the reduction of funds for redistribution. This is where the talks become more of a 'stall and delay' tactic, in order for them to keep the new teams out so they can get more for themselves.
But it's a short-sighted one, as the teams that were for the chopping block just 2 years ago would be back in those dire straights, with nothing to save them as everyone is in cutback-mode as far as sponsorship monies. And with no new teams coming, manufacturer or otherwise, it's a colossal train wreck, as far as the Concorde Agreement goes, just waiting to happen (remember, the teams are still beholden to it, even as it has expired).

Max (and in some cases, Bernie) have realised that all that business that they did over a decade and a half has brought them to this: when you price yourself out of the market, it will have its way later on. Just as many in business have found out, F1 has to go on, as I have said years past, 'salad days and austerity' plans.

[Bagwan]

The little guys want to play with the big guys .

If the big guys don't play , they are being offered a completely different deal .

The money behind a lot of these entries will be keen on the cap , but will they be so keen if they can't beat a Ferrari ?
Or , at the very least , have thier car and logos in the same video frames as a red one .

Has anyone officially signed up ?

Membership in FOTA is now on sale , with operators staffing the phones 24/7 .
New members special features single tier seating and new , improved control of destiny , and Montreal .

You know , I haven't noticed anyone coming out with official company statements , softening the Ferrari tone . Could it be that FOTA is solidifying further ?
Webber seems to be worried , and that means resolve in that camp as well .

[Hondo]

I'm tired of this compassionate misdirection. Max could care less who leaves and who stays, as long as he gets to stay. It wasn't long ago Max was babbling on and on how manufacturers are vital to F1. Now they are free to go, we don't need them. The facts are simple. Max and the FIA want to at least maintain the amount of money they loot from the sport and increase the amount if possible. Bernie has to maintain his share of the loot to cover the notes he was optimistic enough to sign. Now that harder times are upon us, the teams have joined together to, very fairly I think, claim a larger share of the proceeds that they alone generate for the sport. The only way to deflect the team's call for a larger share of the cash is to eliminate the need for it by FORCING a substantially lowered operating budget on the teams.

I think the split ought to be 65% to the teams, 12% to the venue promoters or owners, and 23% to Bernie. Bernie can negoitiate the FIA or any other sanctioning body fees out of his share.

I hope all the teams leave and Bernie and Max can peddle their Lola-Cosworths for what ever the market will pay.

I wonder what kind of deal Tony George would be willing to cut to get Ferrari and the others to come make his b@stard legitimate?

[mstillhere]

No, not Ferrari per se, just the actions taken under the guise of 'for the sake of Formula 1, and its participants'. It has always been Ferrari first, then others when it suits their objectives. The separate deal with FIA, complete with veto powers, is one such an example.

Besides, where else are they going to go, hmm? LMS/ALMS?... where they can get stomped by the diesels of Audi & Peugeot, if not the others like Acura(Honda), that have a good 3+years development under their wheels? Or maybe the GT side, where they will have to split development time between the 430 and a possible 599/612 varient.

Maybe the IRL, except that they will have to supply at least a good number of teams with engines to equal what Honda has to deal with at present. Oh, and supply the maintenance plan for them, too.

... and since they don't make 2/4-door sedans, or pushrod engines, I guess that lets them out of NASCAR, doesn't it?

A1GP and other 'single make' series just doesn't have that 'ring' that 'the Pinacle of motorsport' has, now does it?



Then, don't watch.
It never fails me to read how so many use this tactic, as if would actually affect change, only to find that; a) it is nothing more than self-serving whinning and b) it usually comes from those that have been watching F1 for 18+ years, usually during 'the Schumacher era'. Ask of anything before and it draws a blank, but that's not their fault. ;)

Manufacturers have come and gone from Formula 1, and for much lesser reasons than at present. I'm sure that lots of folks cried when Matra, Puegeot, and Alfa Romeo left just as much as when Honda bid 'Sayonara' last year.

The real reason why Ferrari and others in FOTA (mainly the auto manufacturer teams) are acting this way now is that they forsee the possibility of having to split the 'pie' in smaller amounts with the influx of new teams coming, even as the 'pie' itself is getting smaller due to the reduction of funds for redistribution. This is where the talks become more of a 'stall and delay' tactic, in order for them to keep the new teams out so they can get more for themselves.
But it's a short-sighted one, as the teams that were for the chopping block just 2 years ago would be back in those dire straights, with nothing to save them as everyone is in cutback-mode as far as sponsorship monies. And with no new teams coming, manufacturer or otherwise, it's a colossal train wreck, as far as the Concorde Agreement goes, just waiting to happen (remember, the teams are still beholden to it, even as it has expired).

Max (and in some cases, Bernie) have realised that all that business that they did over a decade and a half has brought them to this: when you price yourself out of the market, it will have its way later on. Just as many in business have found out, F1 has to go on, as I have said years past, 'salad days and austerity' plans.

Did cross your mind at all about HOW the FIA is gpoing to make sure that NOBODY cheats and actually spends well over the 40 million pounds without anybody knowingt it?

Why the new series qualifies as "F1"? It could definetly be GP3 or one of those things.

[mstillhere]

No, not Ferrari per se, just the actions taken under the guise of 'for the sake of Formula 1, and its participants'. It has always been Ferrari first, then others when it suits their objectives. The separate deal with FIA, complete with veto powers, is one such an example.

Besides, where else are they going to go, hmm? LMS/ALMS?... where they can get stomped by the diesels of Audi & Peugeot, if not the others like Acura(Honda), that have a good 3+years development under their wheels? Or maybe the GT side, where they will have to split development time between the 430 and a possible 599/612 varient.

Maybe the IRL, except that they will have to supply at least a good number of teams with engines to equal what Honda has to deal with at present. Oh, and supply the maintenance plan for them, too.

... and since they don't make 2/4-door sedans, or pushrod engines, I guess that lets them out of NASCAR, doesn't it?

A1GP and other 'single make' series just doesn't have that 'ring' that 'the Pinacle of motorsport' has, now does it?



Then, don't watch.
It never fails me to read how so many use this tactic, as if would actually affect change, only to find that; a) it is nothing more than self-serving whinning and b) it usually comes from those that have been watching F1 for 18+ years, usually during 'the Schumacher era'. Ask of anything before and it draws a blank, but that's not their fault. ;)

Manufacturers have come and gone from Formula 1, and for much lesser reasons than at present. I'm sure that lots of folks cried when Matra, Puegeot, and Alfa Romeo left just as much as when Honda bid 'Sayonara' last year.

The real reason why Ferrari and others in FOTA (mainly the auto manufacturer teams) are acting this way now is that they forsee the possibility of having to split the 'pie' in smaller amounts with the influx of new teams coming, even as the 'pie' itself is getting smaller due to the reduction of funds for redistribution. This is where the talks become more of a 'stall and delay' tactic, in order for them to keep the new teams out so they can get more for themselves.
But it's a short-sighted one, as the teams that were for the chopping block just 2 years ago would be back in those dire straights, with nothing to save them as everyone is in cutback-mode as far as sponsorship monies. And with no new teams coming, manufacturer or otherwise, it's a colossal train wreck, as far as the Concorde Agreement goes, just waiting to happen (remember, the teams are still beholden to it, even as it has expired).

Max (and in some cases, Bernie) have realised that all that business that they did over a decade and a half has brought them to this: when you price yourself out of the market, it will have its way later on. Just as many in business have found out, F1 has to go on, as I have said years past, 'salad days and austerity' plans.

Not too mention you can't care less about losing the best 10 drivers in the world.

One last question: besides their respective owners and their family members friends and obviously MAx and Bernie, who would be interested in supporting any of the following teams: Lola, USF1, Wirth Research, Epsilon Euskadi, RML, Campos Racing, iSport and Formtech. Can I buy one of their cars? What kind of breakthrough technological improvement have they gifted the world with?

Again this is not going to be F1 and like the other fellow, I am not going to watch F1 either this year and next year or until F1 cars return to be those amazing technologically packed super cars they used to be. And if you do a little research you'll find out that right now, because all thie smess, F1 related business is definetly hurting in Monaco with major loss of Ferrari fans and hard core "F1" fans in general.

PS Do they all these new amazing teams use the same engine? Because that would be something MAX would REALLY like

[CNR]

did FW max plan this
max saves f1 gets re elected :mad:

[wmcot]

I feel that Max is in this for the sheer power it gives him. He doesn't give a crap about the future of F1 or the quality of racing. Max's "F1" will be more like - stuff a warm body in a cheap car and we'll call it the world championship.

It will no longer be "the pinnacle of racing." In fact the only pinnacle Max cares about is the one in his trousers after the excitement of winning in a French court.

[Hondo]

Just another government trying to save itself at the expense of those that actually produce the revenue.

[CNR]

a quick fix would be customer cars and allow force ferrari to run a second team :s mokin:

[wmcot]

a quick fix would be customer cars and allow force ferrari to run a second team :s mokin:

Let's see you convince Max!

[K-Pu]

I feel that Max is in this for the sheer power it gives him. He doesn't give a crap about the future of F1 or the quality of racing. Max's "F1" will be more like - stuff a warm body in a cheap car and we'll call it the world championship.

It will no longer be "the pinnacle of racing." In fact the only pinnacle Max cares about is the one in his trousers after the excitement of winning in a French court.

F1 is not the pinnacle of racing by now, but it´s still F1.
Trouble will come when it won´t have "that" which makes F1 different from the rest, and F1 will be something else but maybe with the same name.

Or maybe Mad Max and Little BErnie could reconsider their crazy ideas...

[I am evil Homer]

Not too mention you can't care less about losing the best 10 drivers in the world.

One last question: besides their respective owners and their family members friends and obviously MAx and Bernie, who would be interested in supporting any of the following teams: Lola, USF1, Wirth Research, Epsilon Euskadi, RML, Campos Racing, iSport and Formtech. Can I buy one of their cars? What kind of breakthrough technological improvement have they gifted the world with?



Yep as i'm sure Renault's F1 programme will feed into it's new Espace! Toyota? Err....we do F1, now why don't you buy a really dull Auris or how about an iQ?
Red Bull don't make cars, Force India don't make cars, Williams don't make cars.

McLaren are only now going to make another sportscar.

F1 lost Lotus and survived....

[F1boat]

I think that without Ferrari, Renault, BMW and Red Bull F1 will survive but will lose much of its popularity. It will become a major series and not THE major series. Kinda like IRL and CART.

[ioan]

I think that without Ferrari, Renault, BMW and Red Bull F1 will survive but will lose much of its popularity. It will become a major series and not THE major series. Kinda like IRL and CART.

Well you might bet that I will not turn the TV on to watch FI, McLaren and Williams battle a bunch of no ones running on biscuits and tea. The LMS and ALMS series is already very attractive and it will have the upper hand if F1 is dumbed down even more.

[Knock-on]

Well you might bet that I will not turn the TV on to watch FI, McLaren and Williams battle a bunch of no ones running on biscuits and tea. The LMS and ALMS series is already very attractive and it will have the upper hand if F1 is dumbed down even more.

You have long defended Max are you reconsidering your position. ;)

[ioan]

You have long defended Max are you reconsidering your position. ;)

It's enough to read the FIA proposed rules where they state that the teams will have no say at all in the way F1 is run, not in the technical rules, not in the sporting rules and not in the commercial side of it.
I can't agree with dictatorship.

[Hondo]

Welcome back ioan! Good to see you again!

[Knock-on]

It's enough to read the FIA proposed rules where they state that the teams will have no say at all in the way F1 is run, not in the technical rules, not in the sporting rules and not in the commercial side of it.
I can't agree with dictatorship.

You've come back from the dark side. There's hope for you yet.

Now repeat slowly after me...

"Jenson is beating Rubens on merit" 1000 times. Come on ioan, the first steps to enlightenment are always the hardest :D

[ioan]

Welcome back ioan! Good to see you again!

Thanks!

[ioan]

Now repeat slowly after me...

"Jenson is beating Rubens on merit" 1000 times. Come on ioan, the first steps to enlightenment are always the hardest :D

I tried but it didn't work, not even the first time! :D
Do you actually manage to repeat that phrase and keep a straight face?! :p :

You've come back from the dark side.

Ioan has never been to Woking.

[ioan]

Ioan has never been to Woking.

:D ;)

[Hondo]

Maybe Max can move over to football. Cut the field length in half, double the target size of the goal area, cut the number of players to 4, and do away with the goalkeeper. That way all the teams could compete fairly without having to pay large salaries to the few with exceptional skills. Once we lower the standards, everyone becomes exceptional. Just like F1.

[christophulus]

Maybe Max can move over to football. Cut the field length in half, double the target size of the goal area, cut the number of players to 4, and do away with the goalkeeper. That way all the teams could compete fairly without having to pay large salaries to the few with exceptional skills. Once we lower the standards, everyone becomes exceptional. Just like F1.

Football already has a Max. His name is Sepp Blatter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepp_Blatter). Only I think Sepp has slightly less power, thankfully.

[wmcot]

Maybe Max can move over to football. Cut the field length in half, double the target size of the goal area, cut the number of players to 4, and do away with the goalkeeper. That way all the teams could compete fairly without having to pay large salaries to the few with exceptional skills. Once we lower the standards, everyone becomes exceptional. Just like F1.

And each year he could change the size of he ball, the shape of the ball, the size of the goals, maybe even give those teams with lower budgets a bigger goal to aim for and more men on the field!

[Garry Walker]

.

F1 lost Lotus and survived....

Lotus is not comparable to Ferrari.

[wmcot]

Lotus is not comparable to Ferrari.

Agreed. I don't remember Lotus having 60 years in F1 and the name Lotus was never a household name like Ferrari.

[SGWilko]

Agreed. I don't remember Lotus having 60 years in F1 and the name Lotus was never a household name like Ferrari.

However, Lotus - with Colin Chapman the great Innovator at the helm - made it quite a special team. Remember Jim Clark was, effectively, a Lotus man.

[jens]

After Colin Chapman Lotus never quite had the same aura any more IMO. The name may have remained the same, but not the spirit. So from that perspective I reckon it was positive that the team finally disappeared. The last years of the team's existence were already devaluing the great name and history of Lotus - and it wouldn't have been good to carry on like that.