Swine Flu

[SportscarBruce]

Learn all the facts

http://www.peta.org/

[EuroTroll]

Good one! :laugh:

[SportscarBruce]

Also, in regards to the rising cost of health care reducing the percentage of red meat consumption among hispanics will take strides towards reducing obesity, hypertension, diabetes, renal failure, coronary disease in that population. The Spanish imported beef and pork to a population genetically ill equipped to handle the health consequences. The Spanish also imported inhumane attitudes towards animal pain and suffering, i.e. bullfighting & cockfighting. Practically every slaughterhouse in North America would shut down overnight if every Mexican or Mexican/American removed himself from the industry. This attitude which needs addressing also extends into the realm of responsible pet ownership and the issues of strays (I'm caring for 5 dogs discarded to the roadside, all found within blocks of my South Texas residence).

[SportscarBruce]

Smithfield Farms, Swine Flu ground zero;

http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/smithfield_investigation

On its website the CDC states factory farm pig populations are often permanently infected with influenza. This is due to their stressful, filthy, close quarters enviornment. Caught in this cycle pathogens mutate and reproduce at an accelerated rate until it finds the genetic code necessary to cross species and expand its reach.

Consider Swine Flu a warning.

[veeten]

Learn all the facts

http://www.peta.org/

I knew it! I just knew that PeTA would choose to use this for some cocamamie stunt. Looney Toons :crazy: , that's what these 'people' are...

now, for thereal facts...

http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/key_facts.htm

[Dave B]

You've got to love PETA's abilty to shoot themselves in the foot. They have some admirable aims, but stupid and inaccurate stunts like that serve to massively undermine their credibility.

Anyway, I'm sure Swine 'Flu will be just like all those other pandemics which the more hysterical parts of the media were certain would wipe out half the population. Remember bird flu? SARS?

WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE... but probably not just yet.

[SportscarBruce]

I knew it! I just knew that PeTA would choose to use this for some cocamamie stunt. Looney Toons :crazy: , that's what these 'people' are...

now, for thereal facts...

http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/key_facts.htm



Granted Mario Andrettii has a pig for a pet, but suffice to say most pigs who are in constant contact with humans can be found in factory farms.


Like all influenza viruses, swine flu viruses change constantly. Pigs can be infected by avian influenza and human influenza viruses as well as swine influenza viruses. When influenza viruses from different species infect pigs, the viruses can reassort (i.e. swap genes) and new viruses that are a mix of swine, human and/or avian influenza viruses can emerge


Influenza viruses can be directly transmitted from pigs to people and from people to pigs. Human infection with flu viruses from pigs are most likely to occur when people are in close proximity to infected pigs, such as in pig barns and livestock exhibits housing pigs at fairs. Human-to-human transmission of swine flu can also occur.

Cockamaney stunt? The CDC link is in fact supportive material.

Listen, I understand the gut instinct (pun not intended) is to dismiss PETA and their material, heck I used to feel the same way until my daughter brought home a PETA pamphlet. Being of open mind when it comes to political and cultural wedge issues I allowed myself to objectively examine PETA's stand on mass produced meat products. While neither she or I became vegan dieters, I have significantly reduced my beef and pork intake compared to years past due, in part due to animal compassion but mostly in order to address health concerns. Whatever compassion I have for animals fades away when it comes to poultry. Chickens are pretty much stubbron animals totally unresponsive to gestures of treat and kindness. So ****'em, I'll eat 'em. But free range produces better eggs and more wholesome tablefare. ;)

[Camelopard]

We were considering going to Borneo to see some orangutans in their natural habitat before they become extinct. However I'm seriously reconsidering doing this, I don't want to get bird and swine flu!

We were of course going to use the $900 that the nice Mr Rudd gave each of us to help stimulate the economy.

Anyway it's about time we had another plague, far to many people on this planet for the poor old earth to support, it needs a good cull.

[EuroTroll]

Anyway it's about time we had another plague, far to many people on this planet for the poor old earth to support, it needs a good cull.

Sure about that? ;) I reckon Mother Earth could support a few more billion.

And if She couldn't - wouldn't a better method be some sort of contest? ;) E.g. "All those of IQ lower than 100 will be killed." I'm sure it could be arranged. :D



We were of course going to use the $900 that the nice Mr Rudd gave each of us to help stimulate the economy.

Wow, Paul Rudd gave you each $900?? I wish all movie stars were as nice! :p :

[veeten]

Granted Mario Andrettii has a pig for a pet, but suffice to say most pigs who are in constant contact with humans can be found in factory farms.

same can be said of 'Family' farms, as well as non-factory ones as well. Both have had episodes of infections that have gotten beyond the grounds, but are never brought up for view, even on PeTA's site.

Why is that?...


Cockamaney stunt? The CDC link is in fact supportive material.

but, where is the link to the CDC site, and the informative welth that it has on the subject? Is it because it may give suggestion that there is less to what PeTA wants to imply, or rather that it may do damage to the chances of pushing their agenda, like the lack of information and past press about companies and farms that have had past incidences with deadly strains of salmonela and e.coli on produce that they grow.

[Camelopard]

Wow, Paul Rudd gave you each $900?? I wish all movie stars were as nice! :p :

Who is Paul Rudd? I'm talking about our very own Kevin 07 Rudd.... :)

[SportscarBruce]

We were considering going to Borneo to see some orangutans in their natural habitat before they become extinct. However I'm seriously reconsidering doing this, I don't want to get bird and swine flu!

Airports and aircraft are great transport agents for pathogens, it's where thousands of people from all over the globe converge, hour by hour.

Swine Flu's actually doesn't "kill", at least not yet (pending future mutations). Right now the danger is greatest for young adults in their teens and early 20's. I know this seems counter to conventional wisdom, but it seems their strong immune system's frantic attempts to evict the invader kills though mucous aspiration pneumonia. A mature adult's immune response system is not only physically less capable of massive mucous output, it has a larger database of previous infection to draw from, so it's more deliberate. An analogy is an inexperienced driver's panic stop response towards immediate danger vs a mature, learned driver's managed reaction. Reflexes alone can be more dangerous than what they're reacting to.



Anyway it's about time we had another plague, far to many people on this planet for the poor old earth to support, it needs a good cull.

Hmmm. Consider the Earth a living thing colonized by various organisms. It the history of the planet no other species has directly or indirectly negatively impacted the lives of others like homo sapien We selfishly burrow, strip, burn, and contaminate planet Earth to the point of threatening the planet's entire ecosystem. Despite our intellectual greatness and technical powers we homo sapiens are incapable of regulating our propensity to consume and reproduce. In the grand scheme of things maybe Mother Nature is attempting to rid itself of a highly dangerous, rapidly replicating pathogen. Viruses and bacteria were here first, they'll be long after we're gone.

That which makes us sick just might be an attempt to kill off what is making everything else sick..

[Camelopard]

Hmmm. Consider the Earth a living thing colonized by various organisms. It the history of the planet no other species has directly or indirectly negatively impacted the lives of others like homo sapien We selfishly burrow, strip, burn, and contaminate planet Earth to the point of threatening the planet's entire ecosystem. Despite our intellectual greatness and technical powers we homo sapiens are incapable of regulating our propensity to consume and reproduce. In the grand scheme of things maybe Mother Nature is attempting to rid itself of a highly dangerous, rapidly replicating pathogen. Viruses and bacteria were here first, they'll be long after we're gone.

That which makes us sick just might be an attempt to kill off what is making everything else sick..

I couldn't agree more.

[EuroTroll]

Who is Paul Rudd? I'm talking about our very own Kevin 07 Rudd.... :)

I did know that. ;) I attempted a joke, you see. ;)

Paul Rudd is an American (comic) actor. :)

[Drew]

:rotflmao:

[Camelopard]

I did know that. ;) I attempted a joke, you see. ;)

Paul Rudd is an American (comic) actor. :)

I thought you were, I was trying to be funny as well.... :o

[EuroTroll]

I thought you were, I was trying to be funny as well.... :o

Oh well. ;)

In a small insignificant Baltic country, one has certainly heard of Kevin Rudd, your prime minister, but one (or, more specifically, me) would not know the meaning of the "07" that you refer to. :)

Nevertheless, let us all laugh at, say, the failings of Latvians! :laugh: :p :

[Camelopard]

Oh well. ;)

In a small insignificant Baltic country, one has certainly heard of Kevin Rudd, your prime minister, but one (or, more specifically, me) would not know the meaning of the "07" that you refer to. :)

Nevertheless, let us all laugh at, say, the failings of Latvians! :laugh: :p :

The last election was in 2007 and that was his catch cry, "kevin o seven"!

I work with a guy whose parents were born in Latvia and he is a complete tosser....... Estonia on the other hand is on my list of countries to visit before the world implodes........

[EuroTroll]

The last election was in 2007 and that was his catch cry, "kevin o seven"!

I work with a guy whose parents were born in Latvia and he is a complete tosser....... Estonia on the other hand is on my list of countries to visit before the world implodes........

Yes, Latvians ARE tossers! :laugh:

And generally very evil. ;) I mean, when the Teutonic Order conquered Estonia (in the early 13th century), Latvians were their henchmen! This will never be forgiven!

:)

Ok, presently Latvia and Estonia are really quite similar. ;) But I do hope you will evade Latvia and do visit Estonia before the world implodes. In fact, please contact me, when you decide to do that! So that I can show you all the wonders of Estonia, and all the evils of Latvia! :D

[steve_spackman]

Hmmm. Consider the Earth a living thing colonized by various organisms. It the history of the planet no other species has directly or indirectly negatively impacted the lives of others like homo sapien We selfishly burrow, strip, burn, and contaminate planet Earth to the point of threatening the planet's entire ecosystem. Despite our intellectual greatness and technical powers we homo sapiens are incapable of regulating our propensity to consume and reproduce. In the grand scheme of things maybe Mother Nature is attempting to rid itself of a highly dangerous, rapidly replicating pathogen. Viruses and bacteria were here first, they'll be long after we're gone.

That which makes us sick just might be an attempt to kill off what is making everything else sick..

well said..

[SportscarBruce]

same can be said of 'Family' farms, as well as non-factory ones as well. Both have had episodes of infections that have gotten beyond the grounds, but are never brought up for view, even on PeTA's site.

Why is that?...

but, where is the link to the CDC site, and the informative welth that it has on the subject? Is it because it may give suggestion that there is less to what PeTA wants to imply, or rather that it may do damage to the chances of pushing their agenda, like the lack of information and past press about companies and farms that have had past incidences with deadly strains of salmonela and e.coli on produce that they grow.

Immaterial. salmonela and e.coli are existing bacterial pathogens, as such given the necessary living conditions and a mode of transport they're capable of surviving and multiplying at the factory farm, a backyard chicken coop, in a sink, or on a toothbrush.

What presents so much concern are mutated strains of infection previously restricted by genetic code to animals now capable of transferring itself human-to-human through airborne suspension and surface contact.

When the natural evolutionary process is detatched from the whole and confined to a small but turbulent eddy then genetic changes which once took hundreds or thousands of years can occur in a mere fraction of the time. What happens when you repeatedly inbreed from the same small branch of family tree over and over again? You isolate and magnify genetic coding changes unique to that single family bloodline, couple that to breeding within a restricted set of envionrmental conditions, eventually a new breed emerges. It's the reason wolves in the wild today are not much different from wolves 3000 years ago while wolves under the domain of man have become so diverse in appearance and specialization. The Congo River provides an example of what occurs when formerly common species are divided and isolated by a series of barrier rapids. The slow and deliberate pace of evolution becomes a split-second process that chruns out microspecialized variants numbering in the hundreds, with each set indistinguishable from their neighbors sharing the same water and history.

Couple that with the fact factory farm swine eventually stop immune responses to the omnipresent virus and thus become a breed permanently hosting the infection. The virus is no longer fighting for survival. The pig community is not merely a home, for the virus it's a trap, thus the trapped virus strain within the trapped food pig is free to concentrate on mutation with every generation, all in order to escape into world once more.

One more note; Pigs are not only confined for food production, they're commonly bred for medical research. There's a reason for that - genetically speaking pigs are very similar to man.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15479459

As the whole world panics and wrings its hands over Swine Flu to the tune of the mass media there's one very effective solution within everyone's reach for preventing the emergence of a killer virus cousin to today's Swine Flu;

Stop eating pigs. Or at least cut down consumption and break up the factory farms.

It's so obvious, yet so avoided.

And you say there's a conspiracy of silence over at PETA? Please.

[Camelopard]

A very good example of this is Monkey Malaria which is now affecting humans in Borneo, did I say I wanted to go there?

A few snippets from: http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/2533454.htm

"The discovery that people in Malaysian Borneo share a malaria with monkeys overturns a century of scientific dogma."

"The big four are Plasmodium falciparum, Plasmodium vivax, Plasmodium ovale, and Plasmodium malariae. Of these, the most deadly is falciparum. And with no vaccine, the last thing we need is another one that's even more infectious. Bal and Janet were puzzled by hospital records that showed more malariae infections in Sarawak than there should be, including four fatal cases."

"As ecological change throws monkeys and humans closer together, Janet sees the seeds of a new epidemic.

PROF. JANET COX-SINGH:
Now we are really destroying the natural habitat of knowlesi malaria. If we squeeze the mosquitos so far maybe the mosquito adapts to living less in the jungle and more in humans. If the mosquito adapts to living in human settlements then you're definitely going to get transmission from human to human."

[SportscarBruce]

Thanks, amazingly this is the first time I've heard of this Monkey Malaria threat. Nothing on the news anyway.

Here in the US if it isn't about money, politics, celebrity scandal, juvenile homicide, spectacular disasters, or wild animal confrontations in suburbia, it just isn't worth covering.

[tannat]

Stop eating pigs. Or at least cut down consumption and break up the factory farms.




While I respect PETA's work, closing down commercial swine ( or poultry) operations will not eliminate swine (or bird) flu. It might reduce the opportunity of some arising, but will not eliminate flu in these animals.

It has to be mentioned-this is NOT a pure 100% swine virus, but a virus of a gene combination with human, avian, and swine genes. Can't really blame this on commercial swine farming, although some media reports hint this may be where this particular virus came from. I'm waiting to see what OIE/FAO have to say about thsi-no report yet

[tannat]

A good recent review

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1973337&blobtype=pdf

Olsen has been working on swine flu for many years...

[SportscarBruce]

While I respect PETA's work, closing down commercial swine ( or poultry) operations will not eliminate swine (or bird) flu. It might reduce the opportunity of some arising, but will not eliminate flu in these animals.

It has to be mentioned-this is NOT a pure 100% swine virus, but a virus of a gene combination with human, avian, and swine genes. Can't really blame this on commercial swine farming, although some media reports hint this may be where this particular virus came from. I'm waiting to see what OIE/FAO have to say about thsi-no report yet

Can't really blame this on factory farming? For one, the identified first human carrier is a 4 y/o living in close proximity to a factory farm. This makes sense on several levels.

1) Given a group of stressed carrier animals in close confinement experiencing unrelenting levels of stress while fed a mixture of feed cut with hormones, antibiotics that eventually become ineffective then counterproductive, and god-knows-what,

2) The child is the offspring of a pig farm worker (why else would anyone live within sniffing distance of a mass production pig farm) or attached relation. The worker passed on newly hatched Swine Flu version through his clothing, direct contact, or perhaps his vehicle. Or it carried over with the breeze.

3) The immune system of a 4 y/o is so undeveloped the child provided a perfect hatchery/incubator for said virus. With upper respiratory infections so commonplace among 4 y/o, especially those unafforded effective and timely medical care, the signs and symptoms of infection would have raised no red flags within the immediate community.

4) What would motovate a US food manufacturer to raise livestock across international borders, with all the added transportation and infrastructure cost? Cost-benefit scale tilts towards no regulatory oversight, low labor cost, practically nonexistant risk of civil litigation on part of injured or ill employees = maximum profit potential enhanced by corporate-level scale of production.

Now, either one uses logic and intellectual honesty, or ignore both to forward the least likely scenario which states this pathogen sprang up out of the wild totally independent of human involvement.

Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, 2004;

"In an important step toward addressing the dangers of industrial-scale livestock farming, the American Public Health Association (APHA) has issued a resolution calling for a moratorium on new Concentrated Animal Feed Operations (CAFOs), sometimes called “factory farms.” APHA cited a number of problems with CAFOs, including the contamination of drinking water with pathogens from animal waste runoff; growing antibiotic resistance resulting from the millions of pounds of antibiotics routinely fed to animals; severe respiratory problems in CAFO workers; and illnesses among people living near CAFO operations."

[SportscarBruce]

Account describing the physicial and psychological condition pigs rescued during the Midwest floods of 2008, just to illuminate the level of immunity-compromising stress these animals experience during their lifetime;

“The breeding sows we rescued suffer from multiple ailments caused by their intensive confinement on factory farms,” added Coston. “We’ve treated several foot abscesses caused by standing on concrete flooring and we’ve treated infected sores on pigs’ shoulders caused by rubbing against the bars of their crates. All of them have broken or missing front teeth from neurotically biting on the bars of their crates. Many of these sows were far more terrified of humans than any pigs we’ve ever cared for in the past 22 years of Farm Sanctuary’s existence. When they first arrived they would spend entire days rubbing their noses against their rubber feed bowls or biting on fences. They would also issue a chilling scream and run away when anyone even tried to touch them. While these behaviors have ceased with long days outdoors, play sessions, wallow time in mud holes, and affection from one another and from people showing them kindness, these pigs will still chew on gates if they are temporarily restricted to a stall for medical treatment and they still don’t like to be touched on the back.”

...approximately 105 million pigs are raised and slaughtered in the U.S. every year.

photo gallery CAUTION
http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/pig.html

I'll hazard a few guesses; such negative publicity is another incentive for cross border operations, and offer the notion any animal rights activist caught documenting abuses in Mexico would suffer a fate more traumatic and anonymous than the pigs.

[gloomyDAY]

http://imgur.com/27K39.jpg

[jso1985]

oh please... pretending to believe swine flu and the problem is causing now is a fault of over-stressed piglets on factory farms is like thinking Jenson Button is leading the F1 championship just because of his talent... you're getting only 15% of the story

Don't buy PETA's s**t, cause they aren't telling the whole truth!, swine flu exists even on wild boars, and the fact that it mutated and it's now affecting humans can't be atributed to anything as none knows how and why viruses mutate.

want a link to prove it? read a freaking microbiology book ;)

[SportscarBruce]

Stop Intellectual Dishonesty Now!

[Roamy]

oh please... pretending to believe swine flu and the problem is causing now is a fault of over-stressed piglets on factory farms is like thinking Jenson Button is leading the F1 championship just because of his talent... you're getting only 15% of the story

Don't buy PETA's s**t, cause they aren't telling the whole truth!, swine flu exists even on wild boars, and the fact that it mutated and it's now affecting humans can't be atributed to anything as none knows how and why viruses mutate.

want a link to prove it? read a freaking microbiology book ;)

pass the bacon please!!!

[SportscarBruce]

Very interesting read, causes one to pause and consider the entire ethical scope of this issue;

http://www.goveg.com/f-hiddenlivespigs_experts.asp

But I doubt this will get between a dedicated, hard-core food addict and his his pork chop any more than a 30 sec ad against drugs stops a long-term meth addict from heading his cravings.

However, on a cost to society scale I wonder how it all breaks down and if we're spending tax dollars waging war against the wrong enemy to public health and safety?

Maybe something good can come of this Swine Flu through educating the young and intellectually receptive. For sure it has caused me to pause and examine the entire issue of diet, disease, and ethics. I guess it all depends on one's personal set of priorities.

[SportscarBruce]

A good recent review

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1973337&blobtype=pdf

Olsen has been working on swine flu for many years...

Thanks for the link.

[Hazell B]

... swine flu and the problem is causing now is a fault of over-stressed piglets on factory farms is like thinking Jenson ....


True, but the version of swine 'flu causing this problem is NOTHING to do with nature's version. It cannot, in any way at all, have anything to do with wild animals as it's a mix of human, bird and swine ;)

I know pig farmers. The ones with more pigs per square yard of barn have more health problems. Simple as.

[Wade91]

first US death from the swine flu is in texas

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090429/ap_on_he_me/med_swine_flu

i guess in happend in texas becouse its just north of mexico where all the deaths had been

The Zombie undead infected corpses of Pig-Flu victims have attacked Chicago.

It's just been on Fox.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I reckon I've got it.

I've been feeling ill all weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek.

[SportscarBruce]

The Marine Corps announces one suspected case at Twentynine Palms, CA

[tannat]

From Sportscar Bruce

Can't really blame this on factory farming? For one, the identified first human carrier is a 4 y/o living in close proximity to a factory farm. This makes sense on several levels.

5 miles away is an interesting interpretation of ‘close proximity’

1) Given a group of stressed carrier animals in close confinement experiencing unrelenting levels of stress while fed a mixture of feed cut with hormones, antibiotics that eventually become ineffective then counterproductive, and god-knows-what,

The company has denied the presence of swine flu in its herds or workers, although international authorities (OIE/FAO) will hopefully provide some independent reports soon

2) The child is the offspring of a pig farm worker (why else would anyone live within sniffing distance of a mass production pig farm) or attached relation. The worker passed on newly hatched Swine Flu version through his clothing, direct contact, or perhaps his vehicle. Or it carried over with the breeze.

This is a question for epidemiologists, not for speculation. Correlation does not prove causation….

3) The immune system of a 4 y/o is so undeveloped the child provided a perfect hatchery/incubator for said virus. With upper respiratory infections so commonplace among 4 y/o, especially those unafforded effective and timely medical care, the signs and symptoms of infection would have raised no red flags within the immediate community.

One interesting property of immunity is the notion of ‘antigenic sin’. The population identified most at risk is actually teens to late 30s. This is because their immune systems have been ‘primed’ to recognize an H1 of a markedly different amino acid combination.

Younger children actually have a benefit in this regard-their immune systems have not been primed, and can accept the challenge of a novel H1 sequence as they have never been exposed to one.

Best illustrated by an example from the 1918 pandemic when a mailman who carried the virus brought it to the town of Brevig, Alaska in November 1918. (population 80). 78 people died-all the children survived. The adults’ immune system could not defend the challenge of the change in sequence of the virus.

All of the being said the first mortality in the US was 23 month old (RIP little one̷) .

If there is one overriding truth it is the notion of individual differences….

4) What would motivate a US food manufacturer to raise livestock across international borders, with all the added transportation and infrastructure cost? Cost-benefit scale tilts towards no regulatory oversight, low labor cost, practically nonexistent risk of civil litigation on part of injured or ill employees = maximum profit potential enhanced by corporate-level scale of production.

I daresay you are right, although I would like to think the notion of litigation etc is not at the forefront of corporate minds when coming to poorer countries. Perhaps I am naïve…

[tannat]

first US death from the swine flu is in texas

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090429/ap_on_he_me/med_swine_flu

i guess in happend in texas becouse its just north of mexico where all the deaths had been


Child was actually from Mexico city visiting relatives in Texas...

Denmark's population has disappeared over night.

[SportscarBruce]

From Sportscar Bruce

Can't really blame this on factory farming? For one, the identified first human carrier is a 4 y/o living in close proximity to a factory farm. This makes sense on several levels.

5 miles away is an interesting interpretation of ‘close proximity’

1) Given a group of stressed carrier animals in close confinement experiencing unrelenting levels of stress while fed a mixture of feed cut with hormones, antibiotics that eventually become ineffective then counterproductive, and god-knows-what,

The company has denied the presence of swine flu in its herds or workers, although international authorities (OIE/FAO) will hopefully provide some independent reports soon

2) The child is the offspring of a pig farm worker (why else would anyone live within sniffing distance of a mass production pig farm) or attached relation. The worker passed on newly hatched Swine Flu version through his clothing, direct contact, or perhaps his vehicle. Or it carried over with the breeze.

This is a question for epidemiologists, not for speculation. Correlation does not prove causation….

Perhaps I am naïve…

They blocked Dr. Gupta at the gates, what are they hiding?

Anyone placing confidence in company PR in the absence of evidence, cooperation with the media, and independent analysis is naiive all right. At the very least.

[SportscarBruce]

The Reuters news agency has learned that the WHO will announce a phase 5 pandemic within the hour.

[veeten]

what's Dr. Who have to do with all this?...

;) :p :

[Camelopard]

what's Dr. Who have to do with all this?...

;) :p :

He's the one that's going to save us all from this! :)

[donKey jote]

I reckon I've got it.

I've been feeling ill all weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

so have I

Doinkey
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[bowler]

Denmark's population has disappeared over night.

That's extreme. Did they turn the lights off first? :-)

I am now heading to the museum to hide in a phone box, and await the good doctor.

I did like the comments from Ryan Air

Michael O'Leary, Head Of Ryanair, Says Swine Flu Only A Risk For 'Slumdwellers'
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6186585.ece

He has a knack for cutting through some of the window dressing, and getting to the point (as long as you are happy to pay for the toilet)

I believe that there has been a lot of over reaction to this situation. People get the flu all the time, and now every sniffle is being related to a poor swine, while from what I can see the swine are not getting sick.

I think it is a wasted panic

[gloomyDAY]

I wonder if the Americans are going to use swine flu as an excuse to keep Mexicans from coming across the border. "Dem Messicans err cantaminatin uss!" LOL

*turns head and coughs*

[SportscarBruce]

Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124095836527465643.html)reports falling pork commodity prices prompts industry PR campaign effort intended to interfere with standardized scientific disease labeling.


The vast amount of material in it is in pigs," said Michael T. Osterholm, director of the University of Minnesota's Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy.

Since the flu outbreak made headlines last week, the National Pork Producers Council has pestered health officials to stop calling it swine flu. "The whole industry is talking to the USDA and the White House," an industry lobbyist said.

Me thinks accuracy calls for a renaming all right, from Swine Flu to FactoryFarmFlu.

[Dave B]

It's a Hamdemic. Parmageddon, if you will :p

[turves]

I just called the Swine Flu Helpline, but all I got was crackling... :laugh:

It's a Hamdemic. Parmageddon, if you will :p

It's Aporkalypse Now!

[Roamy]

The way I see it is that I should be immune !!

[veeten]

and now, some things not associated with contracting Swine Flu...

Bacon
2266

[steve_spackman]

wife calls hubby 'ive run out of petrol and im scared to fill up because of swine flu!'..husband says 'you daft twat, its in Mexico not Texaco'

[Wade91]

this site will tell if you have swine flu http://doihaveswineflu.org/

[christophulus]

Denmark's population has disappeared over night.

I can't believe I only just got that joke :(

My uni has already emailed around some "advice", and my friend at uni in France has been instructed to clean and disinfect all door handles daily.... and I wish I was joking :eek:

[Easy Drifter]

Those who have kissed Paris Hilton better check into a hospital. :eek:

[Camelopard]

Denmark's population has disappeared over night.

This is a link to someones travel blog, rather than pinch the photo (copyright and all that) and post it here. it's good for a laugh.

http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/Popped/2149816

Taken in Denmark, Western Australia.

[Camelopard]

man flu, probably been posted before.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EElqrgk4N0

[Dave B]

I'm having a mixed grille tonight, I wonder if I'll get discount on the gammon! :facelick:

[jso1985]

From Sportscar Bruce

Can't really blame this on factory farming? For one, the identified first human carrier is a 4 y/o living in close proximity to a factory farm. This makes sense on several levels.

5 miles away is an interesting interpretation of ‘close proximity’

1) Given a group of stressed carrier animals in close confinement experiencing unrelenting levels of stress while fed a mixture of feed cut with hormones, antibiotics that eventually become ineffective then counterproductive, and god-knows-what,

The company has denied the presence of swine flu in its herds or workers, although international authorities (OIE/FAO) will hopefully provide some independent reports soon

2) The child is the offspring of a pig farm worker (why else would anyone live within sniffing distance of a mass production pig farm) or attached relation. The worker passed on newly hatched Swine Flu version through his clothing, direct contact, or perhaps his vehicle. Or it carried over with the breeze.

This is a question for epidemiologists, not for speculation. Correlation does not prove causation….

3) The immune system of a 4 y/o is so undeveloped the child provided a perfect hatchery/incubator for said virus. With upper respiratory infections so commonplace among 4 y/o, especially those unafforded effective and timely medical care, the signs and symptoms of infection would have raised no red flags within the immediate community.

One interesting property of immunity is the notion of ‘antigenic sin’. The population identified most at risk is actually teens to late 30s. This is because their immune systems have been ‘primed’ to recognize an H1 of a markedly different amino acid combination.

Younger children actually have a benefit in this regard-their immune systems have not been primed, and can accept the challenge of a novel H1 sequence as they have never been exposed to one.

Best illustrated by an example from the 1918 pandemic when a mailman who carried the virus brought it to the town of Brevig, Alaska in November 1918. (population 80). 78 people died-all the children survived. The adults’ immune system could not defend the challenge of the change in sequence of the virus.

All of the being said the first mortality in the US was 23 month old (RIP little one…).

If there is one overriding truth it is the notion of individual differences….

4) What would motivate a US food manufacturer to raise livestock across international borders, with all the added transportation and infrastructure cost? Cost-benefit scale tilts towards no regulatory oversight, low labor cost, practically nonexistent risk of civil litigation on part of injured or ill employees = maximum profit potential enhanced by corporate-level scale of production.

I daresay you are right, although I would like to think the notion of litigation etc is not at the forefront of corporate minds when coming to poorer countries. Perhaps I am naïve…

as I said previously, it's true that this flu originated from factory farms, but to blame it directly to them it's a bit small minded IMO

None knows why viruses mutate on any given moment, so while we know the freaking thing originated on factory farms why it actually happened can't be attributed to anything in particular.

one could say that it was due long and close contact between pigs and humans, but that doesn't necesarily causes the virus to mutate, otherwise Feline Inmunodeficiency Virus (FIV) could have mutated a long time ago and AIDS could happen with a cat scratch!

[Mark in Oshawa]

More pseudo science is being propogated by the left of the political spectrum. Had to know PETA would jump on this one. Heck, the WHO is so unsure of the role of pigs, they are not calling it a "Swine" flu now but by its virus name.

PETA in their eager desire to drive us all into a Vegan world has likely caused more pigs to buy the big one as farms all over Mexico started killing off all the pigs in a panic.

Lets face a reality. About every decade, we have some near pandemic scare over some virus that will wipe us all out. Well after seeing the US media make Toronto sound like ground zero during the SARS scare, the only real accomplishment was knocking the S@#t out of the tourist trade for about 3 years and kneecapping the movie industry. SARS only affected a few carriers who brought it back from China, and the medical people in the hospitials unaware of what they were dealing with. By the time the Media figures out there is a pandemic of some sort, the medical community has a handle on it.

AS for the "Swine" flu; near as I can tell, it is a nasty flu, which kills people all the time when they have a weak immune system. That would often be kids, or seniors in poor health. It happens...it is part of life, and for anyone buying PETA's BS about all of this, go to it, maybe the price of bacon will be cheaper for the likes of me....

[Camelopard]

More pseudo science is being propogated by the left of the political spectrum. Had to know PETA would jump on this one. Heck, the WHO is so unsure of the role of pigs, they are not calling it a "Swine" flu now but by its virus name.


the real reason the name was changed"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30453557/

http://www.livenews.com.au/livewire/swine-flu-becomes-mexican-flu-for-jewish-state/2009/4/27/204345

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/religion_theseeker/2009/04/swine-flu.html

Notice it mentions both jews and muslims.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

That makes sense Camel since both Jews and Muslims have issues with pigs. That said, you read the Tribune article and the Rabbi and Imam both don't really care one way or the other. As usual, libreal guilt trying not to offend anyone just makes a mockery of things.

The WHO decided to change the name to the viral name because the Pigs have little to do with it at this point. We have the flu now, and we are giving it to one another....or at least a few hundred of us have it. Not me.....I am anti social most of my work week.

[Hondo]

Personally, I think the entire level of the swine flu "pandemic" is being way over blown by the the powers that be. It has become ridiculously difficult for those trying to sell man made global warming to do so with an argument they can prove. People are not only getting used to the bad economies but are seeing their governments participation as part of the problem. In addition, as the people have to cut back to make ends meet, their governments want to raise taxes because, gee whiz, the government doesn't have enough money. The media and government need something new to instill unreasonable fears into their herds to make themselves appear needed and helpful again.

[SportscarBruce]

Overblown...prior to 9/11 I heard that directed towards concerns of Islamic terrorism. In fact I recall the same dismissive responses towards predictions of a rapidly deflating real estate bubble.

Consider this latest episode of Swine Flu as a warning. An amino acid here, genetic mutation there, and millions die. Imagine how fast a similar pathogen could encircle the globe in this modern age of global travel and trade.

1918 Pandemic:
http://virus.stanford.edu/uda/

H1N1 in its present form cannot replicate with such efficiency. That fact is strictly by chance. Yet our government and the WHO hands the dice over to agribusiness for another throw, over and over again. As was the case with Wall Street speculation, when they lose the ordinary person pays up. In this case it'll be with our lives.

September 1918

“This epidemic started about four weeks ago, and has developed so rapidly that the camp is demoralized and all ordinary work is held up till it has passed....These men start with what appears to be an ordinary attack of LaGrippe or Influenza, and when brought to the Hosp. they very rapidly develop the most viscous type of Pneumonia that has ever been seen. Two hours after admission they have the Mahogany spots over the cheek bones, and a few hours later you can begin to see the Cyanosis extending from their ears and spreading all over the face, until it is hard to distinguish the coloured men from the white. It is only a matter of a few hours then until death comes, and it is simply a struggle for air until they suffocate. It is horrible. One can stand it to see one, two or twenty men die, but to see these poor devils dropping like flies sort of gets on your nerves. We have been averaging about 100 deaths per day, and still keeping it up. There is no doubt in my mind that there is a new mixed infection here, but what I don’t know.”
http://1918.pandemicflu.gov/the_pandemic/02.htm

There is science and there is political echo chamber denialism. Take your pick.

[Hondo]

Overblown.

[SportscarBruce]

Plato believed that people should concern themselves primarily with a search for the truth through dialectic discussion. Given ample time to argue their positions the truth inevitably emerges, except in the case of those who simply argued to win or could not maintain a critical perspective.

Conclusions based on what one wants the world to be is a fool's philosophy.

[SportscarBruce]

And isn't it ironic that the same govt who justified invading Iraq based on faulty evidence in order to protect us from Weapons of Mass Destruction, in the wake of a global biological pandemic this same govt hesitates to publicly scrutinize and investigate NAFTA-facilitated corporate pig farming operations in Mexico? Maybe Saddam Hussein should have invited Smithfield Foods over for regulation sheltered meat production, he might still be in office.

[Hondo]

Plato believed that people should concern themselves primarily with a search for the truth through dialectic discussion. Given ample time to argue their positions the truth inevitably emerges, except in the case of those who simply argued to win or could not maintain a critical perspective.

Conclusions based on what one wants the world to be is a fool's philosophy.

Thank you. My opinion requires no support. It is an opinion. I am not in denial of Influenza or it's many variations. My opinion is that this current outbreak is being overblown by people that have an interest in making it more than it is. I am not trying to win anything, nor am I trying to sell newspapers, expand regulation, or create a new crisis.

[SportscarBruce]

The WHO decided to change the name to the viral name because the Pigs have little to do with it at this point.

The WHO buckled under pressure from the White House in order to arrest the slide in worldwide pork consumption. To be specific pressure from the agribusiness lobby applied upon influential members of congress, Sec. of Agriculture Wilsack, and ultimately President Obama.


We have the flu now, and we are giving it to one another....or at least a few hundred of us have it. Not me.....I am anti social most of my work week.

Eurka! A new minted political adjective describing the conscience handicapped far right; Antisocialism

F-em, let god sort 'em out, just so long as it don't cost much.

[Easy Drifter]

It appears to be over hyped. It is a strain of Flu that at the moment there is no vaccine effective against. However the strain has now been isolated in a lab (Winnipeg) and work is being done to develop a vaccine.
Almost all cases outside of Mexico are described as a mild flu, although dangerous to infants and old.
There are many thousands of deaths every year in the world, including Europe and NA, from assorted flu every year.
Yes it could mutate into something far more dangerous but there is no sign of that at present.
Comparisons to 1918/20 are stupid. Knowledge and ability to develop protection against such a disaster are immense. The threat of rapid spread however is very real and the threat in undeveloped countries is extreme.
There is also absolutely no danger in consuming pork.
The only good thing, for the consumer, is it might lower the price. In the meantime umpteen farmers may go bankrupt because of hysterical panic.
The world's press are having a field day hyping a relatively minor event

[SportscarBruce]

H1N1 Swine Flu was (still is) one evolution away from a rapidly replicating human-to-human transmittable strain of virus of which we have no natural or artificial defences against. One DNA variation away. CDC and the pharmaceutical industry are months away from developing and manufacturing a vaccine reliable enough for mass distribution. Months.

If circumstantial evidence pointed towards some bearded fanatic's basement lab as the source sure as day is bright and night is dark you can bet an army of federal agents in black tactical gear would break in the guy's door, closely followed by a team of isolation-suited CDC collection specialist. All in the glaring light of the world's 24 news media, no less.


But as initial reports indicate patent one lives within a few miles of a NAFTA pig factory, so we have to make do with a company press release. Oh, and eat pork please. PLEASE!

Don't confusing massive media exposure with complete media exposure .


In the meantime umpteen farmers may go bankrupt because of hysterical panic.

For the most part they've already been run out of business by entities such as Smithfield Foods;

[quote[From the slaughter of hogs to the production of cheese, the control of America’s food supply is owned by an increasingly small number of corporations. Since the 1950s, the agriculture sector has been undergoing a fundamental transformation. By the turn of the century, the control of a few, rather than the contributions of many, was evidence of this profound transformation of the most productive food system in the world.

This trend raises major concerns for small farmers, rural communities, and urban consumers, and all people working for economic justice. Take a look at the shape of today’s agriculture markets:

* Large corporations produce 98 percent of all poultry in the United States;

* Just two percent of farms produce 50 percent of all agricultural products in the country;

* Four firms handle more than 80 percent of all beef slaughter. Just two decades ago, concentration in this sector was below 40 percent;

* Sixty percent of pork production in the U.S. is owned by just four firms.

This near-monopoly control of America’s food markeets by a few large firms runs contrary to the principles of competitive economics[/quote]

Like the family farmer carries the political clout to force the White House and CDC from wiping the term Swine Flu off the government's vocabulary. Right...

[Hondo]

Seems to me I read somewhere that humans give it to swine, swine do not give it to humans. Anyway, a doctor once told me that he doesn't reccomend flu shots except for the elderly and those with small children in the house. He referred to small children as "wonderful little germ factories" that excelled at spreading infections and viruses.

This article says London air pollution "contributes" to 3000 deaths a year. By what means do they assume that? If it can be proven as fact, it would seem to be a much bigger threat than swine flu. There's not a doubt in my mind that the flu, any flu, can easily contribute to the death of someone in an already weakened condition or those with respiratory conditions already exisiting. If you no longer have the lung capacity to clear your airway through coughing, you are at huge risk with any congestive infection.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23684480-details/Boris+told%3A+Cut+air+pollution+to+save+3%2C000+de aths+a+year/article.do

I think it is being hyped but that's just me. If you feel better staying home, avoiding children, and breathing through a surgical mask, that's your choice and ok too.

[steve_spackman]

The media and government need something new to instill unreasonable fears into their herds to make themselves appear needed and helpful again.

Those in power use fear to manipulate and control us. Fear makes us the instruments of Power. When we are afraid, we obey.

[SportscarBruce]

Something to read over breakfast;

Boss Hog
Welcome to the dark side of the other white meat.

Smithfield Foods, the largest and most profitable pork processor in the world, killed 27 million hogs last year. That's a number worth considering. A slaughter-weight hog is fifty percent heavier than a person. The logistical challenge of processing that many pigs each year is roughly equivalent to butchering and boxing the entire human populations of New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Philadelphia, Phoenix, San Antonio, San Diego, Dallas, San Jose, Detroit, Indianapolis, Jacksonville, San Francisco, Columbus, Austin, Memphis, Baltimore, Fort Worth, Charlotte, El Paso, Milwaukee, Seattle, Boston, Denver, Louisville, Washington, D.C., Nashville, Las Vegas, Portland, Oklahoma City and Tucson.

Chew on that for awhile.

More:

Smithfield Foods actually faces a more difficult task than transmogrifying the populations of America's thirty-two largest cities into edible packages of meat.

Hogs produce three times more excrement than human beings do. The 500,000 pigs at a single Smithfield subsidiary in Utah generate more fecal matter each year than the 1.5 million inhabitants of Manhattan.

The best estimates put Smithfield's total waste discharge at 26 million tons a year. That would fill four Yankee Stadiums. Even when divided among the many small pig production units that surround the company's slaughterhouses, that is not a containable amount.

Smithfield estimates that its total sales will reach $11.4 billion this year. So prodigious is its fecal waste, however, that if the company treated its effluvia as big-city governments do -- even if it came marginally close to that standard -- it would lose money. So many of its contractors allow great volumes of waste to run out of their slope-floored barns and sit blithely in the open, untreated, where the elements break it down and gravity pulls it into groundwater and river systems. Although the company proclaims a culture of environmental responsibility, ostentatious pollution is a linchpin of Smithfield's business model.

Maybe place that fork of bacon down before continuing;

From Smithfield's point of view, the problem with this lifestyle is immunological. Taken together, the immobility, poisonous air and terror of confinement badly damage the pigs' immune systems. They become susceptible to infection, and in such dense quarters microbes or parasites or fungi, once established in one pig, will rush spritelike through the whole population. Accordingly, factory pigs are infused with a huge range of antibiotics and vaccines, and are doused with insecticides. Without these compounds -- oxytetracycline, draxxin, ceftiofur, tiamulin -- diseases would likely kill them. Thus factory-farm pigs remain in a state of dying until they're slaughtered. When a pig nearly ready to be slaughtered grows ill, workers sometimes shoot it up with as many drugs as necessary to get it to the slaughterhouse under its own power. As long as the pig remains ambulatory, it can be legally killed and sold as meat.

The drugs Smithfield administers to its pigs, of course, exit its hog houses in pig . Industrial pig waste also contains a host of other toxic substances: ammonia, methane, hydrogen sulfide, carbon monoxide, cyanide, phosphorous, nitrates and heavy metals. In addition, the waste nurses more than 100 microbial pathogens that can cause illness in humans, including salmonella, cryptosporidium, streptocolli and girardia. Each gram of hog can contain as much as 100 million fecal coliform bacteria.

Smithfield's holding ponds -- the company calls them lagoons -- cover as much as 120,000 square feet. The area around a single slaughterhouse can contain hundreds of lagoons, some of which run thirty feet deep. The liquid in them is not brown. The interactions between the bacteria and blood and afterbirths and stillborn piglets and urine and excrement and chemicals and drugs turn the lagoons pink.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/12840743/porks_dirty_secret_the_nations_top_hog_producer_is _also_one_of_americas_worst_polluters/print

Now, you don't suppose all these high-powered Washington lobbyist running interference for the pork industry is not only focused on propping up profits, but evading scrutiny that may result in litigation, do you?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/03/AR2009050302236.html

Look at this Swine Flu pandemic like payback. Karma's a #####.

[Dave B]

Reading that, I now fancy a bacon sarnie dripping with HP sauce :facelick:

[SportscarBruce]

Food addiction, it's the mass-marketed USDA approved pathway to an early demise.

The pushers make great car sponsors too.

[chuck34]

Statistically speaking this is not even a blip on the radar. There are something like 100 people in Mexico that have died from it, and a couple thousand world wide that have it. Give me a break. I mean it is a tragedy for all those that have lost loved ones. But come on 35,000 people die of the regular flu every year in the US alone. Call me when it gets to half that level.

OVERBLOWN (and that's an understatement)

[steve_spackman]

To sum up this flu situation as simply as possible, all fear-mongering about outside threats (whether real or imagined) is just an excuse for totalitarianism (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/totalitarianism). It doesn't matter if it's the threat of disease or the threat of terrorism, you either live in a free society with a recognition of certain threats which exist in the world or you live in a totalitarian state with a never ending fear of death

1976 Swine Flu Propaganda

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASibLqwVbsk

[Hondo]

Strikes me as less of a concern about swine and more of an passionate call for a pork industry jihad by Mr. Bruce.

[GridGirl]

I've never actually eaten pork in my life but reading some of the posts on this thread is enough to turn myself vegetarian. :s

I'm not worried about catching swine flu. I'm in my late 20's and have only had regular flu 3 times in my life. I'd view myself quite unlucky to catch swine flu let alone die from it.

[Easy Drifter]

Minor detail that you cannot get swine flu from eating pork.

[GridGirl]

I know you can't get swine flu from eating pork but it is the treatment of both animals and the disposal of waste from the industry that is pretty horrific. If I did eat pork it would be that that puts me off not a morbid fear of swine flu. :rolleyes: The thought of such treatment of animals puts me off meat altogether. :s

[chuck34]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/05/05/swine.flu.main/index.html

"What the epidemiologists are seeing now with this particular strain of H1N1 is that the severity of the disease, the severity of the flu -- how sick you get -- is not stronger than regular seasonal flu," she said.

[SportscarBruce]

"The Wall Street Journal reports that the pork industry is in "rapid response mode,"

http://www.thebigmoney.com/blogs/daily-bread/2009/04/27/so-far-no-swine-flu-link-american-pork-industry?

You can't get it from eating pork. Repeat ad nauesum and hope no one bothers looking behind the curtain.

[chuck34]

"The Wall Street Journal reports that the pork industry is in "rapid response mode,"

http://www.thebigmoney.com/blogs/daily-bread/2009/04/27/so-far-no-swine-flu-link-american-pork-industry?

You can't get it from eating pork. Repeat ad nauesum and hope no one bothers looking behind the curtain.

Are you suggesting that you can get this from eating pork?

[SportscarBruce]

What do you think?

[Easy Drifter]

NO! Show one case, with proof, on anyone contracing this misnamed flu from eating pork. Not PETA's usual hype but proof.
I eat some pork but not a lot. Last time was yesterday with Peameal bacon.
95% of the meat I eat is Buffalo, Elk or Venison. That excludes the fish I eat which is normally Pickerel or Trout.
I do eat and will eat Pork and Beef plus Chicken (some today for the first time in weeks) but I just prefer the other meats that I can get at a reasonable price. Oh and they are farmed although free range.

[SportscarBruce]

Eating pork doesn't directly transmit Swine Flu. Congratulations.

Eating pork facilitates the swine-human-swine biological circle by economically propping up the pig concentration camp industry.

See, it takes more than simplistic denials...

[SportscarBruce]

Judging from previous responses the skeptics are either not reading linked-to material on the subject or are purposely ignoring it in order to continue forwarding simplistic 'can't get flu eating pork' wave-offs.

Here's another link to ignore;
http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-25-swine-flu-smithfield/

[chuck34]

Come on Bruce we've read your links. It's just that they are pretty hard to believe. You must know that the true goal of PETA and their associated groups is to make us all Vegans. Preferably they will convince us by choice, but they will settle for force if needed. So their tactic is to pick off the low hanging fruit first. In this case, let's attack "factory" pig farms because there is some public awareness of a "crisis". They tried the same thing a few years ago with the Mad Cow "crisis".

Look at it logically the two cases in my area are both University students. They haven't been out of the country in over a year. Neither one has ever been to a "factory" farm. And they never came in contact with each other. Look at the school in NYC that had all those kids that were sick. How often do you think kids from New York City go to factory farms?

This is looking more and more like a case where someone got tested for Swine Flu, and lo-and-behold they had it. So they start testing more and more, and find more and more. But the reality is, Swine Flu has been around for years and years, but no one tested for it. Especially since it is no worse than the "regular" flu. Or did you not read my link?

[Hondo]

The dreaded pig farm jihad begins.

[Hazell B]

In this case, let's attack "factory" pig farms because there is some public awareness of a "crisis". They tried the same thing a few years ago with the Mad Cow "crisis".



To be fair, some forms of disease and virus couldn't possibly exist without factory farming methods. There simply aren't ways they could appear unless we humans stressed animals while we ourselves are suffering a virus, for example. Mad cow was down to us feeding them utterly wrong feeds, things they would never eat in any normal diet. Saying nature would invent mad cow or swine flu without harsh farming is like saying bull fighting is natural ;)

Also, by putting speech marks around "crisis" you're trying to say mad cow wasn't serious. It was. It still is for the humans dying slow painful deaths and the farmers who went out of the industry. The breeders, their feed and so on merchants, the machinery makers and cattle suppliers all know what a crisis it was. Just because it didn't bother those in towns much, it hardly got a mention. I spent part of this morning with a friend who used to make his living from store cattle, sold to local butchers. He lost everything in a few short months as the public stopped eating his product. Now he lives off his wife's income from horse breeding and he was saying they can't even sell them at the moment. He's selling up by auction next weekend, without reserve. :(

[chuck34]

To be fair, some forms of disease and virus couldn't possibly exist without factory farming methods. There simply aren't ways they could appear unless we humans stressed animals while we ourselves are suffering a virus, for example. Mad cow was down to us feeding them utterly wrong feeds, things they would never eat in any normal diet. Saying nature would invent mad cow or swine flu without harsh farming is like saying bull fighting is natural ;)

Also, by putting speech marks around "crisis" you're trying to say mad cow wasn't serious. It was. It still is for the humans dying slow painful deaths and the farmers who went out of the industry. The breeders, their feed and so on merchants, the machinery makers and cattle suppliers all know what a crisis it was. Just because it didn't bother those in towns much, it hardly got a mention. I spent part of this morning with a friend who used to make his living from store cattle, sold to local butchers. He lost everything in a few short months as the public stopped eating his product. Now he lives off his wife's income from horse breeding and he was saying they can't even sell them at the moment. He's selling up by auction next weekend, without reserve. :(

I am truly sorry for your friend. But that illustrates my point. The media got themselves all worked up into a lather over Mad Cow. That in turn made at least some of the public stop eating all beef for a while (at least in the UK). But it wasn't statistically a big deal, just as Swine Flu isn't. As soon as we stoped feeding cows to other cows and eating brain sandwiches it went away. There was no real cause for all the hysteria. Find the source, fix it, go on about your lives. And do what you can to reverse the effects in the few people who unfortunatly contracted the disease.

All of these overblown crisises (is that a word) add up to dis-affect the public. What happens when the dreaded bird flu really does become a big killer? Many may say, so what we've been told that before. Sort of like all the people along the coasts of the US. Every year they hear about all the Killer Huricanes they are going to have and that they should all evacuate. Well after a while they say sod-off I'm not leaving, you said that before and nothing happened. Then you get Katrina.

And by the way I never said nature would invent Swine Flu or Mad Cow. I simply don't know how all that works. But stranger things have happened. I'm simply saying that it isn't that big of a deal. We know how to treat it, and it isn't any worse than "regular" flu. Why should I freak out?

[Hazell B]

You say it wasn't statistically a big deal - but it was!
Not for those in towns, who simply ate less beef for a while, I agree. But in the beef farming industry, it was huge. Worse than Foot and Mouth was for the dairy industry (when whole bloodlines of the best milkers were slaughtered) and worse than assorted sheep and pig diseases over the years. It stopped the way animals were raised, bred and fed over a few weeks.

Anyway, the public may well be sick of hearing about it, and sick of crying wolf, but farming areas are stuck with it day in and day out. They spend hours each week formulating worming, grazing and feeding programs that non-farmers can only read about, all to stop new versions of nasty viruses and diseases appearing. The paperwork these days can be impossible (the reason I don't farm sheep) and the problems if you're caught skimping put you out of business faster than a fire.

In short, a smallish virus has put some townsfolk off eating pork, which was suffering production problems already thanks to high feed cost and low supermarket fixed prices, so small producers are madly entering pigs in auctions without reserve and shutting down that part of their farm. There's already evidence in that the auction I was at today had to close entries for pig equipment as it was too full of lots already. In contrast, my hedge shrubs sold at triple reserve and chicken equipment went at double it's normal price, while pig gear was left un-bid upon :( That tells me farmers are looking at sheep raising in the pig paddocks and chickens in the barns.

You ask why you should freak out. You shouldn't, and I didn't say you should. However, if you had a barn full of pigs, you mates might just avoid you in the pub - and not because of the smell. Sadly, it is a big deal in some ways, though a zero story in regards to normal, everyday life in the community as a whole.

[chuck34]

You say it wasn't statistically a big deal - but it was!
Not for those in towns, who simply ate less beef for a while, I agree. But in the beef farming industry, it was huge. Worse than Foot and Mouth was for the dairy industry (when whole bloodlines of the best milkers were slaughtered) and worse than assorted sheep and pig diseases over the years. It stopped the way animals were raised, bred and fed over a few weeks.

Anyway, the public may well be sick of hearing about it, and sick of crying wolf, but farming areas are stuck with it day in and day out. They spend hours each week formulating worming, grazing and feeding programs that non-farmers can only read about, all to stop new versions of nasty viruses and diseases appearing. The paperwork these days can be impossible (the reason I don't farm sheep) and the problems if you're caught skimping put you out of business faster than a fire.

In short, a smallish virus has put some townsfolk off eating pork, which was suffering production problems already thanks to high feed cost and low supermarket fixed prices, so small producers are madly entering pigs in auctions without reserve and shutting down that part of their farm. There's already evidence in that the auction I was at today had to close entries for pig equipment as it was too full of lots already. In contrast, my hedge shrubs sold at triple reserve and chicken equipment went at double it's normal price, while pig gear was left un-bid upon :( That tells me farmers are looking at sheep raising in the pig paddocks and chickens in the barns.

You ask why you should freak out. You shouldn't, and I didn't say you should. However, if you had a barn full of pigs, you mates might just avoid you in the pub - and not because of the smell. Sadly, it is a big deal in some ways, though a zero story in regards to normal, everyday life in the community as a whole.

Hazell, you and I are actually saying the same thing. If the media wouldn't have made such a big flipping deal over the Swine Flu virus, that isn't any worse than any other flu, then those pig farmers wouldn't be out any money, or trying to sell their equipment. They wouldn't be selling out because the general public wouldn't have stopped buying pork. Therefore, demand would still be up. Therefore, prices wouldn't be falling. Same thing happened with Mad Cow.

[555-04Q2]

Hazell, you and I are actually saying the same thing. If the media wouldn't have made such a big flipping deal over the Swine Flu virus, that isn't any worse than any other flu, then those pig farmers wouldn't be out any money, or trying to sell their equipment. They wouldn't be selling out because the general public wouldn't have stopped buying pork. Therefore, demand would still be up. Therefore, prices wouldn't be falling. Same thing happened with Mad Cow.

I think its more a case of ignorant people panicking rather than the media's coverage. We dont trust the media the rest of the time, so why when they sensationalise something like swine flu?

I look at all these people on TV who are walking around with masks on and I have to have a good laugh as the masks they are wearing wont stop the swine flu bacteria passing through their masks at all.

[Easy Drifter]

The first 7 minutes of yesterday's (Mon.) news was devoted to it. A 1 hr newscast which includes 10 min. of sports, about 5 of weather and at least 10 of commercials.
At the time just over 100 cases in all of Canada and only one severe and she is recovering. The rest are mild and most people are at home.
Regular flu kills around 3600 people in Canada a year.
Overhype? You think?

[SportscarBruce]

"The risk of complacency, or a sense that we have weathered this, is a serious one," said Stephen Redd, director of Influenza Coordination at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta.

Elsewhere at the CDC, researchers are monitoring the virus to see if it could mutate into a more deadly strain.

They are conscious of a historic parallel -- in 1918, a relatively mild flu pandemic emerged, only to return with a vengeance months later to kill millions.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE5458CJ20090507

[Hazell B]

Bruce, if they didn't offer the worst case in WHO, etc bulletins, they'd be accused of pandering to governments. They also offer best case numbers, which just never get printed.

[Camelopard]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/05/08/2565046.htm

Activist raid finds pigs 'eaten alive' by maggots

By Tasmanian Stateline presenter Airlie Ward (http://www.abc.net.au/profiles/content/s1889134.htm?site=news)
Posted Fri May 8, 2009 5:00pm AEST
Updated Fri May 8, 2009 5:23pm AEST
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200905/r369194_1712315.jpg (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200905/r369194_1712320.jpg) "There were open drains everywhere that were seething with maggots." (Supplied)


Map: Scottsdale 7260 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/maps/map.htm?lat=-41.1612&long=147.5171&caption=Scottsdale%207260)[/*:m:mvpqhigz]

A piggery operator in Tasmania has been charged with cruelty offences after animals were found in squalid conditions and infested with maggots.
The farm in northern Tasmania was raided and filmed by an animal welfare activist earlier this year.
Emma Haswell reported her concerns to the RSPCA which told her it would not inspect the farm.
Ms Haswell then called the police and told them she had trespassed.
Police charged the owner of the piggery with several animal cruelty offences and he will appear in court in Scottsdale next week.
The piggery is one of Tasmania's biggest and is also a supplier to the self-proclaimed Fresh Food People, supermarket giant Woolworths.
Ms Haswell said she was appalled at what she saw, including a sow infested with maggots.
"She can't move, she's lying in faeces, mud and maggots," she said.
"I would never have imagined I'd find an animal in this condition. She's being eaten alive."
"The first thing I saw was an Australian Quality Assured pork sign on the entrance to the farm.
"The first thing that stood out to me, obviously the smell and the squalor, the flies, the maggots.
Squalid conditions

"There were open drains everywhere that were seething with maggots.
"There were emaciated sows in stalls that couldn't move, they had wounds on them, they had enormous abscesses that meant their legs were two or three times the normal size, she said.
The activist called the RSPCA's chief executive Greg Tredinnick who told her to ring police because the organisation did not operate on weekends.
Animals Australia's executive director Glenys Oojes says that in almost three decades working in animal welfare she has never seen anything like it.
"The poor pig with maggots infested in the wound was honestly the worst thing I've ever seen," she said.
The piggery is a supplier to Woolworths, but did not have industry accreditation.
The supermarket chain says it has given the operator a list of improvements.
A statement released by Woolworths said:
"Woolworths responded immediately upon being informed with our head livestock buyer arriving in Tasmania within 48 hours to investigate the allegations."
"We were not happy with the conditions on the farm and provided the supplier with a list of improvements to be met"
Woolworths says it is visiting the farm every fortnight.
Australian Pork Industry spokesman Andrew Spencer says he was horrified by the images.
"The farm is not accredited and we'll be working with Woolworths to make sure that they have confidence in the ongoing supply of the products," he said.

[chuck34]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/05/08/2565046.htm

Activist raid finds pigs 'eaten alive' by maggots

By Tasmanian Stateline presenter Airlie Ward (http://www.abc.net.au/profiles/content/s1889134.htm?site=news)
Posted Fri May 8, 2009 5:00pm AEST
Updated Fri May 8, 2009 5:23pm AEST
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200905/r369194_1712315.jpg (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200905/r369194_1712320.jpg) "There were open drains everywhere that were seething with maggots." (Supplied)


Map: Scottsdale 7260 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/maps/map.htm?lat=-41.1612&long=147.5171&caption=Scottsdale%207260)[/*:m:3rjxoir3]

A piggery operator in Tasmania has been charged with cruelty offences after animals were found in squalid conditions and infested with maggots.
The farm in northern Tasmania was raided and filmed by an animal welfare activist earlier this year.
Emma Haswell reported her concerns to the RSPCA which told her it would not inspect the farm.
Ms Haswell then called the police and told them she had trespassed.
Police charged the owner of the piggery with several animal cruelty offences and he will appear in court in Scottsdale next week.
The piggery is one of Tasmania's biggest and is also a supplier to the self-proclaimed Fresh Food People, supermarket giant Woolworths.
Ms Haswell said she was appalled at what she saw, including a sow infested with maggots.
"She can't move, she's lying in faeces, mud and maggots," she said.
"I would never have imagined I'd find an animal in this condition. She's being eaten alive."
"The first thing I saw was an Australian Quality Assured pork sign on the entrance to the farm.
"The first thing that stood out to me, obviously the smell and the squalor, the flies, the maggots.
Squalid conditions

"There were open drains everywhere that were seething with maggots.
"There were emaciated sows in stalls that couldn't move, they had wounds on them, they had enormous abscesses that meant their legs were two or three times the normal size, she said.
The activist called the RSPCA's chief executive Greg Tredinnick who told her to ring police because the organisation did not operate on weekends.
Animals Australia's executive director Glenys Oojes says that in almost three decades working in animal welfare she has never seen anything like it.
"The poor pig with maggots infested in the wound was honestly the worst thing I've ever seen," she said.
The piggery is a supplier to Woolworths, but did not have industry accreditation.
The supermarket chain says it has given the operator a list of improvements.
A statement released by Woolworths said:
"Woolworths responded immediately upon being informed with our head livestock buyer arriving in Tasmania within 48 hours to investigate the allegations."
"We were not happy with the conditions on the farm and provided the supplier with a list of improvements to be met"
Woolworths says it is visiting the farm every fortnight.
Australian Pork Industry spokesman Andrew Spencer says he was horrified by the images.
"The farm is not accredited and we'll be working with Woolworths to make sure that they have confidence in the ongoing supply of the products," he said.


Obviously NO ONE wants that kind of crap going on. This is a case where governments SHOULD step in and change things for the better.

[SportscarBruce]

Problem is if it wasn't for the reports and hidden cameras of oft-maligned "activist" such gross abuses would go undisclosed. The financial power weilded by lobbying organizations has corrupted governments and media outlets to the point of eliminating practically all oversight.

Forcing a sunlight regulation upon all agricultural activities enabling public inspection would be far more effective than any breaucratic government agencies. Given this ability I believe the end-consumer can effectively police an industry that is reluctant to police itself.

[Hondo]

Obviously NO ONE wants that kind of crap going on. This is a case where governments SHOULD step in and change things for the better.

I would first suggest that existing regulations be checked. If there are regulations already in effect that cover the situations, then the regulators aren't doing their jobs and thats what needs to be changed.

[Camelopard]

I would first suggest that existing regulations be checked. If there are regulations already in effect that cover the situations, then the regulators aren't doing their jobs and thats what needs to be changed.

You will probably find that the industry here is 'self regulated' a euphemism for 'we don't give a stuff about anything as long as we can make a sh*t load of money'.

I've also noticed that a lot of 'the usual suspects' who support free enterprise with absolutely NO government intervention in anything as that constitutes socialism or worse have not not bothered to post a comment on the above posted link regarding the reality of factory farming.

One can say in Tasmania's defence that at least they weren't feeding murdered prostitutes to their pigs like they were in British Columbia a few years ago.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/57736_vancouver09.shtml

http://www.newser.com/story/13701/pig-farmer-guilty-of-butchering-women.html

http://eyespybc.tripod.com/darksideonlinetabloid/id27.html

[Hondo]

I have nothing against meaningful government regulation when it is needed, applied, and enforced properly. However, many times, desired legal remedies already exist and are simply not enforced. If, in any situation, that is the case, then the issue of non-enforcement should be addressed first. In other words, "You already said you'd do this, the funding was approved to do this, but you're not doing the job you promised to do. Why not?"

Proper and needed regulation does not constitute socialism in this situation.

[chuck34]

Ok all, this may be a bit off topic, but not really.

This example here is exactly why most people consider the press as the fouth branch of government.

We, the people, set up government to watch over us. But they (the gov) fail sometimes. This is an example of the government failing. There are regulations that prevent the sort of thing that Camelopard points out. Obviously the government was not doing their job in this case. Therefore the media outlet that exposed this WAS doing their job. They preformed a great service to the country. Now the government will have to address this instead of sweeping it under the rug as they have been doing in this case for some time.

This is precicely why the media MUST remain impartial. And why I'm so d@mn pissed off that no one in the media will look into the current US administration. I mean for God's sake we have a TAX CHEAT in charge of the IRS!!!!! Where the f*$@ is the G-D media???? Why is this not as big an issue as the miss treatment of pigs???? Am I actually the only one that sees a F'ing problem here?????

Ok back to the meds for me.

[chuck34]

Oops! This may not have anything to do with pigs at all, let along factory farms.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,519976,00.html

"The World Health Organization is investigating claims made by an Australian researcher that new the H1N1 swine flu virus may have evolved as result of human error."

[christophulus]

OK, this swine flu thing is getting out of hand (as if we hadn't figured that out already)

I had BBC News on, and across the bottom of the screen popped up BREAKING NEWS: SWINE FLU DEATH

A few minutes later it was revealed that someone had developed a chest infection following surgery, then got swine flu, then died of natural causes. With crap hype-laden media reporting like this, is it any surprise that the government's swine flu website melted straight after it'd been launched?

It's no worse than seasonal flu and this ridiculous hype isn't helping.

[GridGirl]

I have to say I'm quite bored of swine flu now. I must know about 5 or 6 people that have had it and most people I know in these parts knows atleast one person that has had it. We have two people off work right now that are suspected of having it as we got the warning email from human resources this morning.

One of my clients recently had a sporting fixture cancelled recently as French team they were due to be playing were too scared to come here. I'd personally be more worried that you could catch alot more from a bunch of football players than swine flu. :s

[BeansBeansBeans]

I had it last week. It was like a bad cold, with a bit of stomach trouble. As with any flu, you'd rather not have it, but for the vast, vast majority of people it's absolutely nothing to worry about.

[chuck34]

I had it last week. It was like a bad cold, with a bit of stomach trouble. As with any flu, you'd rather not have it, but for the vast, vast majority of people it's absolutely nothing to worry about.

You sure it wasn't just the Beans? Sorry couldn't resist.

Glad to hear you're ok. Did you get the test and everything or do you just suspect you had it? I'm not trying to say that you're lying, just wondering. I ask because I work with a guy that we're pretty sure had it, but the doctors didn't want to give him the test to confirm.

[GridGirl]

Chuck34, where I live and parts of Scotland were the first places in the UK where swine flu really took a hold and were the first places that testing for it was abandoned. I dont think there is any active testing for it now in any part of the UK unless for example you have some other unrelated illness and then develop symtoms.

There does seem to be no real differentiation between swine flu and normal flu. I'd guess if you get flu twice then you can definately say you've had it but untill then essentially there really is no proof.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Glad to hear you're ok. Did you get the test and everything or do you just suspect you had it? I'm not trying to say that you're lying, just wondering. I ask because I work with a guy that we're pretty sure had it, but the doctors didn't want to give him the test to confirm.

You raise a good point. It was 'confirmed' over the phone by my GP from my symptons, but without lab tests you'll never really know. The experts say that there isn't a lot of seasonal flu knocking around at the minute, so if you get the symptons it's like to be a swine flu variant. Still, flu is flu is flu. Some people get no symptoms and some people die. The vast, vast majority of people fall somewhere in between.

[chuck34]

You raise a good point. It was 'confirmed' over the phone by my GP from my symptons, but without lab tests you'll never really know. The experts say that there isn't a lot of seasonal flu knocking around at the minute, so if you get the symptons it's like to be a swine flu variant. Still, flu is flu is flu. Some people get no symptoms and some people die. The vast, vast majority of people fall somewhere in between.

Yep, flu is flu, swine or not (at least at this point). Too much media hype. When you hear about all the people that die each year from "regular" flu and then compare it to swine flu, while each death is tragic, there is no comparison.

People seem to forget that since 1919 there has been significant advances in medicine. For example most people are fine if you just take some Tylenol (fever reducer) and drink some Gatorade (fluid repenishment). Unfortunatly folks in 1919 didn't have these wonders of the modern world and couldn't beat the thing.

[Tazio]

Yep, flu is flu, swine or not (at least at this point). Too much media hype. When you hear about all the people that die each year from "regular" flu and then compare it to swine flu, while each death is tragic, there is no comparison.

People seem to forget that since 1919 there has been significant advances in medicine. For example most people are fine if you just take some Tylenol (fever reducer) and drink some Gatorade (fluid repenishment). Unfortunatly folks in 1919 didn't have these wonders of the modern world and couldn't beat the thing.Flu had a renaissance in our country when every new strain from Southeast Asia started showing up after a certain "Police Action" in Vietnam and the following influx of refugees. :(

[Camelopard]

Interesting article from the ABC news site in oz. Concerns that it may mutate further as it moves between humans and pigs and back again.



http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/08/01/2643069.htm?section=justin

One expert says there is a very real risk the swine flu virus will become more dangerous to humans in the wake of a swine flu outbreak in a New South Wales piggery.

The piggery in central-western NSW has been placed in quarantine after some of the 2,000 pigs there were found to have swine flu.

It is the first time ever that Australian pigs have been infected by the virus.
Doctor Andrew Jeremijenko, an epidemiologist, says the there is a risk the virus will now gain strength and mutate.

"The alarmist bells that concern me most is that in pigs, the disease that can transmit between humans and pigs, in the pig population it could mutate a little bit and come back slightly different to humans," he said.

"One of the concerns is that the virus could mutate, so that the medicines that we have don't work against it. Another concern is that it could mix with another virus like the bird flu virus.

"I did most of my research in influenza in Indonesia; we were watching pigs there because the pigs can have the bird virus and the human virus and it can mix up and come out as a stronger virus.

Dr Jeremijenko says it is crucial that work is done now to form teams of doctors and agriculture vets.

He says their brief should be to keep a close eye on the virus in pig and abattoir workers.

Andrew Spencer from industry body Australian Pork Limited admits the public image of the pork industry could suffer.

"What I want to make sure of however is that consumers have no fear... you can't get the disease through consuming pork," he said.

"This is the first time that any type of swine flu has occurred in Australia. So from that point of view it's not a great thing for the industry," Mr Spencer said.

The pigs caught the virus from humans working at the farm, but the disease is unlikely to be fatal for the animals....

[Langdale Forest]

I don't feel well but I don't think I have swine flu.

[donKey jote]

I'm pretty sure I already had it last July, and I'm pretty sure my daughter has just had it together with half her class :dozey:

[Langdale Forest]

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200905/r369194_1712315.jpg (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200905/r369194_1712320.jpg).

****

That is the most gruesome picture I have seen for a few years. :(