The drivers order of merit...

[pino]

I’m trying to figure out who's the “best” driver out there at the moment, here's my list :

Alonso
Vettel
Kimi
Hamilton
Massa
Button
Trulli
Webber
Kubica
Glock
Buemi
Rosberg
Heidfeld
Sutil
Kovalainen
Fisichella
Barrichello
Bourdais
Piquet
Nakajima

[Knock-on]

Flameing Pino. Shame on you :laugh:

[pino]

Flameing Pino. Shame on you :laugh:

I am having a glass of Nero d'Avola (Sicily) and you ? :p :

[woody2goody]

Is that the best this season, or best overall?

[Knock-on]

I am having a glass of Nero d'Avola (Sicily) and you ? :p :

I would have expected a bottle sent over for my Birthday seeing as my favorite Itallian dwarf couldn't be bothered to make it :p :

Now, stop dragging the thread off subject otherwise I will lose patience and have to ban you :D

[woody2goody]

OK, here goes:

Alonso
Button
Vettel
Hamilton
Massa
Kubica
Trulli
Rosberg
Raikkonen
Glock
Webber
Kovalainen
Barrichello
Heidfeld
Bourdais
Fisichella
Buemi
Nakajima
Sutil
Piquet

It's very difficult to rank the drivers in terms of ability, and for example I've put Rubens and Nick quite low down, but they are only fractionally 'worse' than say Massa, Rosberg and Hamilton. I rate Barrichello and Button very closely, but I've put them many places apart, so that's how hard it is.

PS. Before anyone mentions it, I've always rated Button that highly :)

[Sonic]

Me
Dave the trucker
Stirling moss
Karlos the scooter rider
Nico rosberg

[pino]

I would have expected a bottle sent over for my Birthday seeing as my favorite Itallian dwarf couldn't be bothered to make it :p :

Now, stop dragging the thread off subject otherwise I will lose patience and have to ban you :D

Bla Bla Bla, post your drivers list if you dare :hmph:

[SGWilko]

Lets sort out the chaff from the wheat....

Drivers of merit are;

Alonso
Vettel
Hamilton
Button
Massa
Kubica
Rosberg
Webber
Heidfeld
Raikkonen
Kovalainen
Glock
Barrichello
Trulli

Creme of those are;

Alonso
Hamilton
Vettel
Button
Massa

[DexDexter]

My list:

Schumacher :)
Hamilton
Räikkönen
Alonso
Vettel
Massa

All the others are good but don't make my list...

[Knock-on]

Bla Bla Bla, post your drivers list if you dare :hmph:

Hamilton
Alonso
Button
Kubica
Massa
Kimi
Vettel
Barrichello
Webber
Glock
Sutil
Buemi
Rosberg
Heidfeld
Fisichella
Kovalainen
Bourdais
Nakajima
Piquet
Trulli :p :

[Wasted Talent]

Why the enthusiasm for Alonso?

Got his butt kicked by Hamilton in his rookie saeson in F1, and has to be carried after the Bahrain GP...........

WT

[BeansBeansBeans]

Creme de la Creme
Alonso
Hamilton

Bubbling Under
Vettel
Kubica
Button
Raikkonen
Massa

Mr Average
Trulli
Glock
Webber
Heidfeld
Barrichello
Buemi
Rosberg
Fisichella
Sutil
Kovalainen

Bargain Bin
Bourdais
Piquet Jr
Nakajima

[BeansBeansBeans]

Why the enthusiasm for Alonso?

Got his butt kicked by Hamilton in his rookie saeson in F1, and has to be carried after the Bahrain GP...........

WT

He didn't get his butt-kicked by Hamilton, and there's no shame in collapsing after racing in the desert without a drinks bottle.

[Knock-on]

Hi 3B

Agree that Alonso is a bit special, even though i don't like him.

Do you think that Button could get in the top order in your opinion.

Problem is that his style is so smooth and unspectacular, it's difficult to appreciate just how good he is.

But, as they say, results talk, BS walks.

IMHO, if he could just show some of the fight that he did at the start of Bahrain, including putting a nice move on Lewey, then he will get more widespread recognition.

In the past, he has been guilty of giving up positions he knew he would ultimatly lose so now the championship is on the line, I want to see him bare knuckle fight for it.

[pino]

Why the enthusiasm for Alonso?

WT

Because he's the most complete driver, and one of the fastest too :)

[pino]

Hamilton
Alonso
Button
Kubica
Massa
Kimi
Vettel
Barrichello
Webber
Glock
Sutil
Buemi
Rosberg
Heidfeld
Fisichella
Kovalainen
Bourdais
Nakajima
Piquet
Trulli :p :

knockie, I can live with Trulli at the end of your list :hmph: but Barrichello 8th :s and ahead of Webber, Glock, Heidfeld and Rosberg ? :crazy:

[Knock-on]

knockie, I can live with Trulli at the end of your list :hmph: but Barrichello 8th :s and ahead of Webber, Glock, Heidfeld and Rosberg ? :crazy:

They are all much and the same really. On his day, Rubens can challenge anyone and bested Schumy.

Now, because he's up against Button, suddenly he's crap and cannot drive a golf cart :confused:

[SGWilko]

:crazy:

Stay off that wine Sonny.....

[pettersolberg29]

I've been trying this all year with a few mates, and this is what we concluded:

Alonso
Hamilton
Button
Massa
Kimi
Heidfeld
Kubica
Vettel
Webber
Trulli
Glock
Barrichello
Rosberg
Sutil
Buemi
Fisichella
Kovalainen
Bourdais
Piquet
Nakajima

[rabf1]

The top 5 is really all that matters. Everyone else I consider to be "the pack." As they are both WDC's and still young, Hamilton and Alonso have to be considered in the top group. And since they raced on the same team and Hamilton trounced Alonso, I rate Hamilton above Alonso. Kimi seems to have lost his edge and appers on the way down but was still WDC only 2 years ago. Based on his performance this year, Button has to be put in the top group. Finally, the best driver is clearly Vettel. So my ranking is:

1. Vettel
2. Hamilton
3. Alonso
4. Button
5. Kimi

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The Best
1)Alonso
2)Hamilton
3)Vettel
4)Kimi
---------------
very quick on their day
5)Button
6)Kubica
7)Webber
8)Heidfeld
9)Massa
10)Rosberg
---------------
good pace but inconsistent
11)Barrichello
12)Trulli
13)Kovalainen
14)Glock
15)Sutil
16)Fisichella
--------------

making up the numbers
17)Buemi
18)Bourdais
19)Piquet
20)Nakajima

[jens]

Hmm, I have noticed we have such ranking threads in every half a year. As for the lists of others - it would be useful if you tried to explain your lists too not to make them look too random. ;) But as I see, car has a lot of importance in rating drivers as usual - wasn't Button among one of the worst drivers last year in some lists? And I guess he didn't exist in anyone's Top3.

I'll use my usual grouping method and give some strict marks this time:

A-category
Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel.
Best drivers, all of them have shown supreme performances, consistent high-class drives, excellent drives both in top and sub-par cars. Capable of adapting well to all kinds of situations. Hamilton has shown this year that he can drive "average" cars really well too as there were doubts after first two years. Alonso is a well-known 'complete' driver. Vettel may be as the most unproven one, but I have had very high hopes and belief in him since 2006-2007 and he has been delivering nicely so far. Finally he has got a proper measurestick in Webber and Seb continues to impress by at least matching the well-known qualifying-specialist even on Saturdays. All of the three have been making mistakes so far in 2009 though, but even then in those races they seemed rather quick.

B
Kubica - in 2008 he had a fantastic year, but needs to prove himself more. So far in 2009 he has had a horrible year, suffering all kinds of setbacks in all races so far. I still have great belief in him and hope he can prove himself as a top-class driver. The potential is there. But 2009 will be quite telling, how can he cope with a "bad car". So far, only Australia was impressive.
Button - I have been impressed with the way he has been beating Barrichello this year. And he was rather good in 2004-2006 too. Back then I rated him as an "A" driver and he would deserve it for this year so far too, great car or not. But... he really doesn't seem that kind of ultimate performer like the above-mentioned Top3. Button has performed well in good cars and won races he should have won, but he really hasn't achieved great results "against odds" or in non-favourable conditions. And in crap cars he more likely struggles rather than impresses. Hence it's 'B' at the moment, but I hope we can witness Jenson in difficult situations this year too to give a better evaluation. But Button is one of the most consistent drivers and that's surely useful in a title fight.
Both Ferrari drivers Massa & Räikkönen blow hot and cold. They can be blindingly quick on their day, but quite never can be sure about their consistency. And I wonder, how much truth is in the suggestions like Kimi is lazy? Anyway, 2009 in Ferrari will be quite telling, how can they cope with difficult times and improve with the team.
Webber - a really quick driver and fast in all conditions. But that "unluck" tag hasn't done any good to his reputation and has really hindered to unveil his potential.
Trulli - can be blindingly quick and especially now on slick tyres he is really flying. But at times he can have appalling races, like the one recently in China, which is why he really isn't at the top class. Too sensitive to condition changes.
Glock - After last year had high hopes on him and although I think his better performances of the year are still to come, he has been a slight disappointment so far. Quick in the wet, but usually slower than Jarno in dry. Great fighter and team-worker, but pace-wise may struggle at times. Plus his qualifying-performances have been disappointing at times, although admittedly it is difficult to shine against a driver like Jarno over one lap.
Heidfeld - as much as it has been possible to evaluate his performances this year in that underperforming machinery, he has seemed closer to Kubica than in 2008. Generally Nick is a good 'all-rounder' - consistent, rarely makes mistakes, good tactician, hard-working. The main minus is that he seems to lack pace a tad bit. I suppose this is why he 'never' makes mistakes, he doesn't quite go to the ultimate limits. In a way quite similar to Button, but since Nick really hasn't got such opportunity in a top car as Jenson, his rating suffers...
Rosberg - I think he has actually got more criticism for Williams' lack of results than he deserves. He sure has his weaknesses, but I still believe this kid is quick. I hope he joins another team after 2009 for better evaluation.

C
Barrichello - in the past belonged to "B-category", but alas his performances so far this season have been rather disappointing. Maybe I'm too harsh on him, because he is still 2nd in WDC despite lack of pace, having been consistent. But anyway, needs to raise his game to be more convincing and secure his future in F1.
Sutil - great in thr wet, but otherwise alas inconsistent.
Fisichella - recently have discussed about him for twice. Unfortunately the better days seem to be over...
Buemi - I really don't think he is going to be a future top contender, but based on what we have seen so far, he deserves another season and if that will happen alongside a proven driver, the better would it be.
Bourdais - in a suitable car can be relatively quick, but besides that impressive debut-race in Australia '08 has really never set the world alight. Doesn't seem to be really adaptable, at the end of last year I thought he could be a decent #2 in an F1-team.
Kovalainen - I was generous to put him into C-category, TBH. I believe he has potential for more and for his sake I hope he leaves McLaren at the end of this season to start regaining his reputation. Being No.2 driver simply doesn't suit him as he needs team support to unveil his potential. Like in the second half of 2007, when he seemed quite a competent driver.

D
Nakajima - last year showed some promise against team-mate, but like in the battle between JB and RB, it had probably more to do with the unmotivation of Rosberg...
Piquet - nah...

[F1boat]

1 Fernando Alonso
2 Kimi Raikkonen
3 Lewis Hamilton
4 Jenson Button
5 Felipe Massa
6 Sebastian Vettel
7 Robert Kubica
8 Rubens Barrichello
9 Jarno Trulli
10 Nico Rosberg
11 Nick Heidfeld
12 Heikki Kovalainen
13 Mark Webber
14 Timo Glock
15 Sebastien Buemi
16 Sebastien Bourdais
17 Giancarlo Fisichella
18 Nelson Piquet-jr
19 Adrian Sutil
20 Kazuki Nakajima

I think that Alonso is clearly the best and "most complete driver". Raikkonen is second, when he is fast, he is bloody good. Lewis third - brilliant, but IMO too aggressive. Jenson really impressed me at the start of this season - I never though that he is bad, but I am surprised that he can be as consistent and impressive. Felipe fifth - also a very good driver. Seb Vettel so far 6th, brilliant and can improve a lot, but still prone to bizarre moves, like in Oz. RK also can improve IMO, while the rest are either just solid or unimpressive.

[Sleeper]

The top 5 that have shown something special on several occaisons
Alonso
Button
Vettel
Kubica
Hamilton

The consistently fast drivers but all lack something to take them into the top tier of driver talant, in Webbers case its good luck.
Webber
Heidfeld
Kovalainen
Trulli
Glock
Rosberg
Massa

Raikkonen- the fastest man out there over a single lap but but not interested in working closely with the team or on technical matters, important attributes for a driver to be great these days.

Drivers that are all past their best or good but nothing special.
Barrichello
Fisichella
Sutil
Nakajima
Buemi
Bourdais

And then theres Piquet

[CNR]

Vettel i hope he can take the record for the youngest f1 champion

news paper clips
second coming of button when was he this good before

[leopard]

I think the best driver would be the best compromise between driving in proper speed with maturity, consistency, ability to drive safely safe for himself and not endanger others, in case accident is unavoidable he will try as far as possible not to crash on others, ability to implement the right strategy, ability to outperform the car:

1. Alonso
2. Button
3. Hamilton
4. Vettel
5. Kimi
6. Kubica
7. Massa
8. Barrichello
9. Trulli
10. Webber
11. Heidfeld
12. Kovalainen
13. Glock
14. Rosberg
15. Buemi
16. Piquet Jr
17. Fisichella
18. Bourdais
19. Sutil
20. Nakajima

Vettel is enrouting to the top position, provided he can keep the emotion constant during the race, his speed is promising to reserve a seat to make use of the better car for the titles.

[Valve Bounce]

Bunsen and Vettel - can't separate them, because I simply don't know which car is the better.

[Cozzie]

Alonso
Raikkonen
Hamilton
Massa
Vettel
Kubica
Button
Trulli
Rosberg
Heidfeld
Glock
Barrichello
Webber
Kova-whythehellisheinatopteam-lainen
Sutil
Buemi
Fisichella
Bourdais
Piquet Jr
Nakajima

[pino]

...Raikkonen- the fastest man out there over a single lap...

Hey wait a min, Trulli is the fastest man over a single lap ;)

[Valve Bounce]

Hey wait a min, Trulli is the fastest man over a single lap ;)

He is sleeping, don't wake him.

[markabilly]

In this time and age, no driver can really be ranked easily as to real ability.

Last year, NO one would say Button was any where this high up on the list, a has been who needed to retire....and certainly probably not even over Rubens.....

A great engineer comes along, spends a year with him,sees where his talents lie, and the following year, gives him a car that really suits him, and BINGO!!

[Storm]

Alonso
Hamilton
Vettel
Massa
Kimi (I rated him higher but since last year, Massa has been better)
Button
Kubica
Barrichello
Webber
Trulli
Heidfeld
Fisichella

[aryan]

Category A:
1. Raikkonen
2. Hamilton
3. Alonso
4. Vettel

Category B
5. Button
6. Kubica
7. Webber
8. Heidfeld

Category C
9. Trulli
10. Massa
11. Barrichello
12. Kovalainen
13. Rosberg

Category D
14. Buemi (Just a guess, he is still unknown)
15. Glock
16. Fisichella
17. Sutil

Category F
18. Bourdais
19. Nakajima
20. Piquet Jr

[I am evil Homer]

With all due respect there's no way Massa can be in the same group as Kovi!!!

Category A:
1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Vettel
4. Raikkonen

Category B
5. Massa
6. Kubica
7. Webber
8. Heidfeld
9. Button

Category C
10. Trulli
11. Barrichello
12. Kovalainen
13. Rosberg
14. Glock

15. Buemi - could be "c" but too early to tell
16. Sutil - can't work him out so he's here

Category D
17. Fisichella
18. Bourdais
19. Nakajima
20. Piquet Jr

[jens]

Looking at the lists, I have to ask that according to which criteria is Kovalainen better than, say, Glock?

[pino]

Looking at the lists, I have to ask that according to which criteria is Kovalainen better than, say, Glock?

I would like to hear that criteria too ;)

[Garry Walker]

Raikkonen- the fastest man out there over a single lap but but not interested in working closely with the team or on technical matters, important attributes for a driver to be great these days.


What do you base that on? Give us facts and proof.


What a joke that suddenly people are rating button so highly when last year he got his ass kicked by Barrichello. Total comedy.

Best drivers:
1)Hamilton, Massa, Räikkönen (in alphabetical order)
2)Alonso, Kubica
3)Webber, Trulli, Buemi, Rosberg, Vettel, Heidfeld.
4)Button, Barrichello, Glock.
5)The rest

[BeansBeansBeans]

What a joke that suddenly people are rating button so highly when last year he got his ass kicked by Barrichello. Total comedy.

In all honesty, I've always placed Button in the 'best of the rest' category, and that's where he remains. I don't think he's a top 5 driver.

[DexDexter]

[quote="Garry Walker"]

It just shows how little people here know about F1. Button is a good driver, but hey come on he has won three races in the quickest car, has everybody forgotten the rest of his career?

[Sleeper]

What do you base that on? Give us facts and proof.


What a joke that suddenly people are rating button so highly when last year he got his ass kicked by Barrichello. Total comedy.

Best drivers:
1)Hamilton, Massa, Räikkönen (in alphabetical order)
2)Alonso, Kubica
3)Webber, Trulli, Buemi, Rosberg, Vettel, Heidfeld.
4)Button, Barrichello, Glock.
5)The rest
Coulthard has already said that when they were team mates he was the lazyiest driver he had ever worked with, and everything that I;ve read in Autosport over the last couple of years suggests he hasnt exactly been taking an active role in pushing development direction, which is why last years Ferrari got closer and closer to Massa's driving style and further from his.

I've personally ranked Button in the top 5 or so drivers in F1 for the last five years. Yes, Barrichello out raced him more often than not last year, but that was after being well and truly hammered buy Button for 3 years running, and it looks like he's doing the same again.

[jens]

What a joke that suddenly people are rating button so highly when last year he got his ass kicked by Barrichello. Total comedy.


It never really amazes, how fickle and car-based the reputations are. I can easily imagine drivers like Webber, Heidfeld or Kubica performing similarly well in that BGP 001 as Button has been doing so far. I also think that as this thread appeared right after the Bahrain GP, then one disappointing race has immediately turned Glock into a vastly underrated driver.

I suppose proper and conclusive ratings for drivers can't be given before the end of their careers, because F1 constantly changes and drivers appear in a different light every year - new situations unveil new perspectives. But the very last situations, where drivers appeared, always have a major effect on opinions. After one's career we would have a more neutral view - the whole career would be looked at in a more balanced view.

I'm sure ioan would have something spicy to say about all this here! Shame he is banned. :(

[DexDexter]

Coulthard has already said that when they were team mates he was the lazyiest driver he had ever worked with, and everything that I;ve read in Autosport over the last couple of years suggests he hasnt exactly been taking an active role in pushing development direction, which is why last years Ferrari got closer and closer to Massa's driving style and further from his.

I've personally ranked Button in the top 5 or so drivers in F1 for the last five years. Yes, Barrichello out raced him more often than not last year, but that was after being well and truly hammered buy Button for 3 years running, and it looks like he's doing the same again.

Coulthard doesn't know Kimi at all, yes they were team mates, but he has absolutely no clue about Kimi's personality or whether he is lazy or not. All this nonsense about taking the lead and developing is based on perceptions, not actual facts. The designers design the car, not the drivers. I mean surely it's not because Lewis is leading the development that both Mclarens are suddenly getting quicker every race. It's about the technical staff.

[jens]

Coulthard doesn't know Kimi at all, yes they were team mates, but he has absolutely no clue about Kimi's personality or whether he is lazy or not.

Do you know information from someone else, who appears to know Kimi better than DC, and has given other kind of view about Kimi's work-ethic, etc?

[Wasted Talent]

Coulthard doesn't know Kimi at all, yes they were team mates, but he has absolutely no clue about Kimi's personality or whether he is lazy or not. All this nonsense about taking the lead and developing is based on perceptions, not actual facts. The designers design the car, not the drivers. I mean surely it's not because Lewis is leading the development that both Mclarens are suddenly getting quicker every race. It's about the technical staff.

I don't think Coulthard was commenting on Kimi as a person, but he will have full knowledge of what he was putting into the team when they were at McLaren, and what feedback the drivers need to give to the technical people

WT

[aryan]

Looking at the lists, I have to ask that according to which criteria is Kovalainen better than, say, Glock?

Let's face it, Trulli is not getting young anymore. I think he had his best years in 2003, 2004. Yes, he is an awesome qualifyer, but he's been in this sport long enough that we know how good he is. He is a known quantity. Solid, respectable, but not a magician.

Until Glock starts to consistently beat him, that's where he reamains. With Kovi and Rosberg: the "unproven" category.

[aryan]

I can easily imagine drivers like Webber, Heidfeld or Kubica performing similarly well in that BGP 001 as Button has been doing so far.


I agree. That's why I have 4 drivers in my "B" category: Button, Kubica, Webber and Heidfeld. I think any one of them would be leading the championship right now if they were driving the BGB001 in the first 4 races.

[DexDexter]

I don't think Coulthard was commenting on Kimi as a person, but he will have full knowledge of what he was putting into the team when they were at McLaren, and what feedback the drivers need to give to the technical people

WT

Whitmarsh said in an interview on Finnish TV recently that Kimi was very committed to developing their car (when he was at Mclaren) even if it didn't look like it from outside. He's got no reason to say that if it isn't true. The link is in Finnish...so :)

http://www.sportti.com/uutinen.asp?CAT=1-1&ID=149439

[jens]

Let's face it, Trulli is not getting young anymore. I think he had his best years in 3003, 3004. Yes, he is an awesome qualifyer, but he's been in this sport long enough that we know how good he is. He is a known quantity. Solid, respectable, but not a magician.

Until Glock starts to consistently beat him, that's where he reamains. With Kovi and Rosberg IMO. The "unproven" category.

I think Trulli has in recent years been driving better than ever before. Performance-wise I'd rate 2008 as the best of his career. In 2003-2004 he had more 'off-days', when he was slow without a 'good' reason. And it's difficult to beat Trulli 'consistently', no-one has achieved it so far. ;) Timo may be unproven, but over the last year he has performed clearly better than Heikki.

[woody2goody]

Alonso
Button
Vettel
Hamilton
Massa
Kubica
Trulli
Rosberg
Raikkonen
Glock
Webber
Kovalainen
Barrichello
Heidfeld
Bourdais
Fisichella
Buemi
Nakajima
Sutil
Piquet



Ok I'll try to explain my list in detail.

ALONSO for me is the best, partly down to his world titles and partly due to his complete racecraft. His raw pace is also possibly the best out there. He's also beaten Michael Schumacher to the title twice which holds a lot of weight in my opinion.

I've ranked BUTTON above VETTEL partly because of his experience. I don't think Vettel is the complete driver yet although he isn't far from it. They, in turn beat out HAMILTON because they are more complete than the World's Champion at this time. I'm not really a fan of his driving style. He locks the tyres up far too often, although I really enjoy his attitude to racing.

MASSA is closely behind. I don't like the fact that he never seems to be as racy in the midfield as up front. Also, like Lewis, is somewhat erratic in his style and makes mistakes. However he is very quick, and has shown up well against good teammates such as Kimi, Schumi and JV.

Next up is KUBICA. He really impressed me last year with his performances at the front of the field. I think he is very very quick, however he seems to find it hard to reach down and really pull out something great when he needs to.

That leads nicely to Jarno TRULLI. Tremendous qualifier and solid racer, however he isn't as consistently brilliant come Sundays. I think he is due more wins before his career is out, I love his smooth style, but he sometimes falls asleep defensively and is overtaken too easily.

Nico ROSBERG has shone in practice sessions recently, and has two fastest laps in his still young career, but while he is undoubtedly fast, lacks the experience of Trulli and Button. He is unproven in a good car as that may be the reason why he is in this position on the list.

Next up are two contrasting characters in RAIKKONEN and GLOCK. Kimi is one of the most naturally gifted drivers in the history of F1, but doesn't try anywhere near as hard enough to get the maximum out of the car, and himself. Timo isn't anywhere near as talented as Kimi, but has improved dramatically over the last 5 years to turn into a legitimate contender for the 2009 championship. The result is that they are neck and neck on my list.

WEBBER is infront of KOVALAINEN due to his superior qualifying pace, and the fact that he seems a bit more aggressive as a racer than Heikki, who is still bloody quick.

BARRICHELLO loiters just behind these two partly because I think his qualifying isn't up to the standard of his excellent race efforts, and someone like Raikkonen could use his never-say-die attitude.

The next place belongs to HEIDFELD. Personally I rate Nick much higher than Kimi and even Kubica, however I have to look at the facts and say that while he is a tremendous, canny, consistent racer, his raw speed maybe isn't as as strong as most.

It was very hard for me to do the order from Massa-Heidfeld, as they could have gone in any order, they are so close together in ability.

'Seabass', Sebastien BOURDAIS is next. Many would put him behind Sutil, Fisi, Buemi, etc, but he has won four Champ Car titles, is very good in the wet, and has a lot of experience. He doesn't seem to make many mistakes and I think will only improve in F1 over the next few years. Seems to struggle in qualifying though and that could be a weakness for him.

Next is the veteran FISICHELLA. Fisico has been around for a long time, and is probably past his prime, but he can still be a force in F1 for a few years yet. He has a great ability to drag an uncompetitive car higher up the race order than it should be. However, like Trulli, sometimes 'goes missing' at certain points of the weekend, evidenced by his years at Renault, when he should probably have won at 5-10 races instead of just 2. His 14 seasons of F1 put him in front of Buemi at this point.

Behind him is the rookie BUEMI. The young Swiss driver has shown great promise and a lot of raw speed, as he's outpaced Bourdais in 2 of the 4 races so far and 3 qualifying sessions. It's very early to make a proper assessment of him but for the driver that many expected to be last in nearly every race, to be ahead of other drivers already is certainly an achievement.

At the bottom are NAKAJIMA, SUTIL and PIQUET. Sutil is the fastest, Nakajima is the least accident prone, and Piquet is probably the most experienced. The bad points of each one, well Nakajima seemed to perform better last year in a mediocre car, than he is this year in a very good machine. Sutil and Piquet seem to crash at every available opportunity, however Sutil's wet pace is very good. Let's face it, all three are going to struggle to remain in F1 in 2010, Piquet may not last 2009, so improvement is needed and fast.

Out of the three of them I'm sure NAKAJIMA will escape the sack at the end of the year. Partly because he has a car which is capable of elevating him to the podium.

[woody2goody]

What do you base that on? Give us facts and proof.


What a joke that suddenly people are rating button so highly when last year he got his ass kicked by Barrichello. Total comedy.

Best drivers:
1)Hamilton, Massa, Räikkönen (in alphabetical order)
2)Alonso, Kubica
3)Webber, Trulli, Buemi, Rosberg, Vettel, Heidfeld.
4)Button, Barrichello, Glock.
5)The rest

Yeah but to play Devil's advocate Garry, on what would you base Buemi after 4 races? :) You're right though, many people wouldn't have put Jenson up there last year. But I overrated drivers such as Kimi, Heidfeld and Lewis last year. I'd have still put Jenson 4th or 5th then even.

[aryan]

I think Trulli has in recent years been driving better than ever before. Performance-wise I'd rate 2008 as the best of his career. In 2003-2004 he had more 'off-days', when he was slow without a 'good' reason. And it's difficult to beat Trulli 'consistently', no-one has achieved it so far. ;) Timo may be unproven, but over the last year he has performed clearly better than Heikki.

Heikki has a race win under his belt. Yes, it might have been in one of the best 4 cars on the grid, but nevertheless, he belongs to the "race winners" club, a rather elite club that Webber and Heidfeld are yet to get into.

Heikki's team mate is a WDC. Yes, he has been beaten by his team mate, but that just means that he was beaten by a WDC.

Glock can not claim any of these. As such, to say that he is clearly better than Heikki, is in my opinion, disingenuous.

I have to admit that I don't understand why you think Glock is better than Heikki.

[jens]

Aryan, according to your logic Piquet is good too. He is getting beaten by double WDC (well, that's an excuse!) and if he had won that German GP last year in 2008, it could be possible to rank him as a medium-driver! And if you use such criterias (race wins, etc), then why isn't Heikki ahead of the likes of Mark and Nick then? ;)

Why is Glock better than Kovalainen? Do I really need to make a race-by-race analysis to make it clear? If so, OK:
BAH 09: TG - 7th, HK - 12th. Glock got criticism, while Heikki's drive was equally poor if not poorer. Both had unfavourable strategies.
CHN 09: HK - 5th, TG - 7th. Fine drive by HK, Timo not really worse since he started from the pitlane.
MAL 09: TG - 3rd, HK - DNF. Great strategical choice by TG, while HK spun off already on lap1.
AUS 09: TG - 4th, HK - DNF. Heikki caused an accident in T1, while Timo moved nicely upwards after starting from the pitlane.
BRA 08: TG - 6th, HK - 7th. A superior result for Timo in inferior machinery.
CHN 08: TG - 7th, HK - DNF. While Timo's race may not have been stellar, it was more impressive than HK's, who was far-far behind his team-mate in 5th before puncture.
JPN 08: both DNF. Can't really rate, both had early problems.
SIN 08: TG - 4th, HK - 10th. Great drive by Timo in midfield car, HK dropped backwards after the start and was nowhere to be found during the race.
ITA 08: HK - 2nd, TG - 11th. Heikki's race was deemed as a disappointment by fans not to beat Vettel. Timo was at the same time on course for points, but needed to make an extra stop, which ruined his race like Jarno's, Nico's and Lewis'.
BEL 08: TG - 9th, HK - 10th. HK went wide in T1, later hit Webber and generally all this ruined his race. His car failed on the last lap from P8. TG, however, was close to points in conditions, which didn't suit TF108 the best.
EUR 08: HK - 4th, TG - 7th. Well, that's a close one, I have to say.
HUN 08: HK - 1st, TG - 2nd. While Heikki inherited a win, Timo's inherited 2nd was clearly more impressive in 3rd fastest car.
GER 08: HK - 5th, TG - DNF. HK's result was rather disappointing, while his team-mate was driving through the field. TG was nicely moving upwards and would have finished around P6/P7 without suspension failure.
- - - - (from here on Timo finally got to the grips with the car and admittedly before that Heikki was better)

But generally, there has been only an odd weekend here and there, where Heikki was more impressive than Glock. Sorry, but that's a no-brainer to me.

[DexDexter]

Aryan, according to your logic Piquet is good too. He is getting beaten by double WDC (well, that's an excuse!) and if he had won that German GP last year in 2008, it could be possible to rank him as a medium-driver! And if you use such criterias (race wins, etc), then why isn't Heikki ahead of the likes of Mark and Nick then? ;)

Why is Glock better than Kovalainen? Do I really need to make a race-by-race analysis to make it clear? If so, OK:
BAH 09: TG - 7th, HK - 12th. Glock got criticism, while Heikki's drive was equally poor if not poorer. Both had unfavourable strategies.
CHN 09: HK - 5th, TG - 7th. Fine drive by HK, Timo not really worse since he started from the pitlane.
MAL 09: TG - 3rd, HK - DNF. Great strategical choice by TG, while HK spun off already on lap1.
AUS 09: TG - 4th, HK - DNF. Heikki caused an accident in T1, while Timo moved nicely upwards after starting from the pitlane.
BRA 08: TG - 6th, HK - 7th. A superior result for Timo in inferior machinery.
CHN 08: TG - 7th, HK - DNF. While Timo's race may not have been stellar, it was more impressive than HK's, who was far-far behind his team-mate in 5th before puncture.
JPN 08: both DNF. Can't really rate, both had early problems.
SIN 08: TG - 4th, HK - 10th. Great drive by Timo in midfield car, HK dropped backwards after the start and was nowhere to be found during the race.
ITA 08: HK - 2nd, TG - 11th. Heikki's race was deemed as a disappointment by fans not to beat Vettel. Timo was at the same time on course for points, but needed to make an extra stop, which ruined his race like Jarno's, Nico's and Lewis'.
BEL 08: TG - 9th, HK - 10th. HK went wide in T1, later hit Webber and generally all this ruined his race. His car failed on the last lap from P8. TG, however, was close to points in conditions, which didn't suit TF108 the best.
EUR 08: HK - 4th, TG - 7th. Well, that's a close one, I have to say.
HUN 08: HK - 1st, TG - 2nd. While Heikki inherited a win, Timo's inherited 2nd was clearly more impressive in 3rd fastest car.
GER 08: HK - 5th, TG - DNF. HK's result was rather disappointing, while his team-mate was driving through the field. TG was nicely moving upwards and would have finished around P6/P7 without suspension failure.
- - - - (from here on Timo finally got to the grips with the car and admittedly before that Heikki was better)

But generally, there has been only an odd weekend here and there, where Heikki was more impressive than Glock. Sorry, but that's a no-brainer to me.

I disagree with you, I think Glock and Kovalainen are both at the same level, sometimes fast but up and down. The last race is a good example, Clock was slower than his teammate Trulli in quali 3 with a lighter car, faded away in the race in a car that was capable of winning. Kovy missed q3 and was about 4 tents slower than Hamilton in q2 while in the race he too faded away partly because his strategy was awful. Considering the circumstances, Clock performance in Bahrain was worse. One also has to remember that Hamilton is a better driver than Trulli based on statistics ( if personal likings are left aside). Glock was very fast in Hungary last year but nowhere at some races. Kovalainen likewise, he qualified on pole at Hamilton's home race and showed flashes of speed at some races. Drove a good race at Monza in the wet even if nobody remembers it cause Vettel won.

[Knock-on]

Just having a look at this Gem.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=606363&postcount=39

Some of us kept the faith with Button and were waiting for a car he could show his true colours in.

We now have that car and the cream is rising to the top :D

Remember when you were claiming button was a clown and Rubens was the better driver Gazza? Well, results talk abd BS walks because this "clown" is making some of the "big boys" look like Monkeys. :D

(Just joking fella. Couldn't resist ;) )

[jens]

I disagree with you, I think Glock and Kovalainen are both at the same level, sometimes fast but up and down. The last race is a good example, Clock was slower than his teammate Trulli in quali 3 with a lighter car, faded away in the race in a car that was capable of winning. Kovy missed q3 and was about 4 tents slower than Hamilton in q2 while in the race he too faded away partly because his strategy was awful. Considering the circumstances, Clock performance in Bahrain was worse. One also has to remember that Hamilton is a better driver than Trulli based on statistics ( if personal likings are left aside). Glock was very fast in Hungary last year but nowhere at some races. Kovalainen likewise, he qualified on pole at Hamilton's home race and showed flashes of speed at some races. Drove a good race at Monza in the wet even if nobody remembers it cause Vettel won.

You are leaving out one criteria, which is that Kovalainen is making clearly more mistakes than Glock. Crashing out in first two races of the year is almost andrettiesque. He may be quick, but this quickness must be transformed into a meaningful result too. By pure qualifying-pace I have to agree that HK is at least on par with TG if not faster, but Glock's racecraft is better.

[DexDexter]

You are leaving out one criteria, which is that Kovalainen is making clearly more mistakes than Glock. Crashing out in first two races of the year is almost andrettiesque. He may be quick, but this quickness must be transformed into a meaningful result too. By pure qualifying-pace I have to agree that HK is at least on par with TG if not faster, but Glock's racecraft is better.

I think they both need to improve.

[Garry Walker]

Coulthard has already said that when they were team mates he was the lazyiest driver he had ever worked with, and everything that I;ve read in Autosport over the last couple of years suggests he hasnt exactly been taking an active role in pushing development direction, which is why last years Ferrari got closer and closer to Massa's driving style and further from his.

It even happened to Schumacher that Ferrari suddenly was more suited to Barrichello, was it due to him being lazy or just development going that way because that was how the car was the fastest?
Whitmarsh and Ferrari guys and McLaren engineers have said his feedback and work is very good. Have fun refuting that.



I've personally ranked Button in the top 5 or so drivers in F1 for the last five years. Good for you.
Want to buy some real estate in a swamp? Bet you do.



Yes, Barrichello out raced him more often than not last year, but that was after being well and truly hammered buy Button for 3 years running, and it looks like he's doing the same again.
1) This is their 4th season together, if Barrichello beat him last year, how on earth was he hammered for 3 seasons in row?

In anycase, Button has never hammered Barrichello, except for the first few races in 2006 where RB was struggling with the brakes and TC of Honda. After that they have been quite equal and last year Ruby was better.



Just having a look at this Gem.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=606363&postcount=39

Some of us kept the faith with Button and were waiting for a car he could show his true colours in.

We now have that car and the cream is rising to the top :D

:D
He has by far the best car, most other drivers would be winning in it too.
When Rubens gets rid of the understeer problems that are bugging him at the moment when the car has lots of fuel onboard, he will once again be matching button.



Remember when you were claiming button was a clown and Rubens was the better driver Gazza? Well, results talk abd BS walks because this "clown" is making some of the "big boys" look like Monkeys. :D

(Just joking fella. Couldn't resist ;) )
I still think Button is a clown :D

[Sleeper]

Coulthard doesn't know Kimi at all, yes they were team mates, but he has absolutely no clue about Kimi's personality or whether he is lazy or not. All this nonsense about taking the lead and developing is based on perceptions, not actual facts. The designers design the car, not the drivers. I mean surely it's not because Lewis is leading the development that both Mclarens are suddenly getting quicker every race. It's about the technical staff.
DC stated that in their 3 years as team mates Kimi would always spend the smallest amount of time possible with the engineers at the track, wither in testing or the race weekend.

A drivers role in development will come down to helping to get the cars handeling charecteristics to move in the direction that they want it to. I can think of a couple of cases in the last few years where the engineers not agreeing with the drivers and doing what the computer says is best has led to poor performances from the driver because he doesnt like the car (Viellneuve at Sauber, Panis and Da Matta at Toyota).

[Sleeper]

It even happened to Schumacher that Ferrari suddenly was more suited to Barrichello, was it due to him being lazy or just development going that way because that was how the car was the fastest?
Whitmarsh and Ferrari guys and McLaren engineers have said his feedback and work is very good. Have fun refuting that.


I dont remember the Ferrari ever suiting Rubens over Michael, bu the only times that could have happened is 03 and 05 when the Ferrari didnt exactly suit the regulations as well as other cars did.

His feedback is good and Kimi has an excellent technical capacity, I remember reading about the Ferrari engineers being surprised just how fast he could grasp the intricacies of their controle systems, but the quality of his feedback isnt what we're discussing here its the amount of work put in on the developoment side.

As for Whitmarshes comments, I wont dismiss them out of hand but did he ever work closley with Kimi in the technical debriefs after every session?

[Knock-on]

He has by far the best car, most other drivers would be winning in it too.
When Rubens gets rid of the understeer problems that are bugging him at the moment when the car has lots of fuel onboard, he will once again be matching button.


I still think Button is a clown :D

We can all sit here and say "If this" and "If that".

Facts are facts. Rubens has driven with the best and proven that although not at Schumys level, could live with him and on occassions better him.

Now the yardstick is Button and they both have an even chance to perform. Many people claimed that in a decent car, rubens would beat button but the reverse is true.

Why not just face facts and accept the situation rather than scrabble for excuses :p :

The car's the same for both of them and the only logical conclusion I can come to is that Button is doing the better job by quite a margin.

[aryan]

A

Why is Glock better than Kovalainen? Do I really need to make a race-by-race analysis to make it clear? If so, OK:


Fair comparison Jens, and as always, your point of view is very interesting. But to me, it is slightly biased :) I think all this really shows is that Glock did some races better than heikki in the second half of 08, and that Kovi had bad luck in his first 2 races in 09.

I'm not defending Heikki here, I think the guy is underperforming and needs a wake up call, but I really don't think Glock has done anything during his time in F1 to deserve to be in anything but the same category as Heikki is.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Trulli is indeed on top of his game, as you say, and is simply too fast ( I do rate Trulli). But until there is clear evidence to the contrary, I'll keep Glock in the "unproven" category.

[woody2goody]

Well I ranked Glock two places above Heikki, and while I'm not certain that Timo is necessarily a better driver than Heikki, he's definitely performed better over the last two years.

I'd be more inclined to agree with Jens on this one.

[keysersoze]

Complete driver (sublimely quick, elevates a team, wins in inferior car): Fernando Alonso

Most likely to be a "complete driver" when they reach their prime: Vettel, Hamilton

Outstanding veterans (about as quick as the drivers listed above in most circumstances, can win in the right car, occasional bad races and slips in judgment): Massa, Kimi, Trulli (actually getting better with age), Button, Rubens, Rosberg, Kubica

Very good, solid veterans who still deserve to be in F1: Fisichella (past prime but may be quite useful for one of next year's new teams), Webber (extremely quick but tragically unlucky), Heidfeld (steady, with no glaring weakness)

Young lions probably headed for a 100-125 race F1 career: Glock (hard-nosed racer), Buemi (typical rookie year with flashes of brilliance, but clearly has pace), Kovalainen (off to his typical slow start), Sutil (getting better all the time)

Probably not in F1 for much longer, but can occasionally impress: Bourdais, Nakajima, Piquet

[markabilly]

Complete driver (sublimely quick, elevates a team, wins in inferior car): Fernando Alonso

Most likely to be a "complete driver" when they reach their prime: Vettel, Hamilton

Outstanding veterans (about as quick as the drivers listed above in most circumstances, can win in the right car, occasional bad races and slips in judgment): Massa, Kimi, Trulli (actually getting better with age), Button, Rubens, Rosberg, Kubica

Very good, solid veterans who still deserve to be in F1: Fisichella (past prime but may be quite useful for one of next year's new teams), Webber (extremely quick but tragically unlucky), Heidfeld (steady, with no glaring weakness)

Young lions probably headed for a 100-125 race F1 career: Glock (hard-nosed racer), Buemi (typical rookie year with flashes of brilliance, but clearly has pace), Kovalainen (off to his typical slow start), Sutil (getting better all the time)

Probably not in F1 for much longer, but can occasionally impress: Bourdais, Nakajima, Piquet
Finally a decent car-driver analysis
I would say that this should be amended as follows:

"Most likely to be a "complete driver" when they reach their prime: Vettel, Hamilton" if they continue to have top or prime cars or teams.....

[Ranger]

A - Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen, Massa.
B - Vettel, Kubica, Heidfeld, Webber, Button, Barrichello.
C - Rosberg, Kovalainen, Trulli, Glock, Buemi.
D - Sutil, Fisichella, Bourdais, Nakajima, Piquet

Trulli and Glock are great drivers but have significant issues with consistency across an entire season, especially Trulli. Which is disappointing as he is otherwise a great driver.

Button and Barrichello are great drivers but are be very underwheming in cars that do not suit them. In other words, they are bad at adapting, which is not an admirable quality to have. Not that it matters if you have the best car on the grid. Same is true of Heidfeld and Kubica.

Webber and Vettel have never had that problem and have always been faster than their team-mates regardless of the car, perhaps because they are better drivers than those four.

Kovalainen is moderate. Just that.

Rosberg had a mediocre first season in which he did not improve, and has had rubbish team-mates since. Never been impressed by him to be honest. Having said that, Williams recently have an unfortunate habit of going downhill after season's start.

Buemi is unproven so far. We shall see after most of this season.

[markabilly]

As to the rest of the opinions, those that fail to consider the team and their team's engineers who are working with them, are totally missing the boat;
so well demonstrated by comparing Button and Ruben during their time together at Honda then with Brawn

[wmcot]

I'm amazed at how many of you rank Button so highly. If he was still trundling around near the back in his Honda (as in the past two years) how many would rate him among the top? I think that it's the car and Ross Brawn that are making him look great!

[Knock-on]

I'm amazed at how many of you rank Button so highly. If he was still trundling around near the back in his Honda (as in the past two years) how many would rate him among the top? I think that it's the car and Ross Brawn that are making him look great!

Some of us beleived he was a top driver even with him having to drive that POS around last year.

Others on here say he was crap then in a crap car and crap now in a good car. Just happens that he's doing the business over a fast and experienced team mate.

Still, when facts and evidence are against your arguement, just ignore it and trundle on regardless :laugh:

[leopard]

I'm amazed at how many of you rank Button so highly. If he was still trundling around near the back in his Honda (as in the past two years) how many would rate him among the top? I think that it's the car and Ross Brawn that are making him look great!

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion ;)

[SGWilko]

I'm amazed at how many of you rank Button so highly. If he was still trundling around near the back in his Honda (as in the past two years) how many would rate him among the top? I think that it's the car and Ross Brawn that are making him look great!

Doh! If it is the car making him so good, so it was the car making him so bad.

Sometimes I fail to see the logic of some of these posts......

[markabilly]

Doh! If it is the car making him so good, so it was the car making him so bad.

Sometimes I fail to see the logic of some of these posts......
I see it just fine and I am blind in one eye and can not see out of the other

Indeed, it was the car and its setup as it fit his driving style, that was making him look so bad

This is also why comparing team mates is likely not to be a good measure unless one is hopelessly slow and crashing out all the time.

The same car might make one look good and the other bad, depending on their driving style, rather than their drving ability. Put them in a different team with a different set up, and the results may well reverse themselves.

When JV came back to F1, he complained as to the engine mapping, and when it was changed to produce a different power/torque curve, his times substantially improved, to the extent he went from being behind his team mate's times to being ahead on some tracks, but not others.....

Hence the nature of the beast....back in the days of Clark, Gurney, Moss, fangio, one could watch from a corner and see the speed difference between drivers, and since part of that speed was the driver's ability to truly set up the car (no datalinks or computers back then--just a handheld stop watch), the driver was essential.

Give a driver a great chassis and engine along with a great engineer who knows how to set up the car for that particular driver and as long as he is above average ability, he will beat the pants off of whoever you wish to name, if the second driver is driving an average car with an average set up....and after a while, everyone will be saying what happenned to FA, LH or whoever...they used to be so good, now look at them :(

[wmcot]

Doh! If it is the car making him so good, so it was the car making him so bad.

Sometimes I fail to see the logic of some of these posts......

Truly great drivers are able to get more out of a poor car(see MS 2005) An average driver can't. No problem with logic.

[wmcot]

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion ;)

True, and that includes me. :)