The car order of merit.

[Knock-on]

I’m trying to figure out which are the “best” cars out there as they currently stand.

Taking out of the equation the drivers, tactics, reliability and other team influences, what is the order of the best cars as I think it’s turned round since the beginning of the season.

I personally think the Toyota and Red Bull have fractionally sneaked the Brawn and the only thing making a real difference at the moment is Jenson. Similarly with Lewis in the McLaren and the big disappointment is Ferrari with their drivers not getting the maximum out of the car (althought there has been some reliability issues)

My list

Toyota
RBR
BGP
Ferrari
Renault
McLaren
BMW
Williams
STR
FI

[jens]

Knock-on, I'm pretty sure you're overrating the abilities of Button and Hamilton. :p : According to your criteria they would be overwhelmingly the best drivers in F1.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74911
Even Mr Button himself doesn't suggest Toyota is now ahead of them, only mentioning Red Bull.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The Brawn seems to have the edge when it comes to race pace, and they were slightly more compromised by the heat than other teams were in Bahrain, so I would still but them first.

My list
Brawn
Red Bull
Toyota
McLaren
Williams
Renault
Ferrari
STR
BMW
Indians

[pino]

I’m trying to figure out which are the “best” cars out there as they currently stand.

Taking out of the equation the drivers, tactics, reliability and other team influences, what is the order of the best cars as I think it’s turned round since the beginning of the season.

I personally think the Toyota and Red Bull have fractionally sneaked the Brawn and the only thing making a real difference at the moment is Jenson. Similarly with Lewis in the McLaren and the big disappointment is Ferrari with their drivers not getting the maximum out of the car (althought there has been some reliability issues)

My list

Toyota
RBR
BGP
Ferrari
Renault
McLaren
BMW
Williams
STR
FI

BGP 3rd
Ferrari 4th
McLaren 6th

knockie mate, put back those beers ;) :p :

[ShiftingGears]

I’m trying to figure out which are the “best” cars out there as they currently stand.

Taking out of the equation the drivers, tactics, reliability and other team influences, what is the order of the best cars as I think it’s turned round since the beginning of the season.

I personally think the Toyota and Red Bull have fractionally sneaked the Brawn and the only thing making a real difference at the moment is Jenson. Similarly with Lewis in the McLaren and the big disappointment is Ferrari with their drivers not getting the maximum out of the car (althought there has been some reliability issues)

My list

Toyota
RBR
BGP
Ferrari
Renault
McLaren
BMW
Williams
STR
FI

Toyota better than BGP?

Ferrari better than McLaren?

You think that any strong results of these teams are purely down to their British drivers, and not the cars. Which I don't agree with at all.

[Ranger]

I’m trying to figure out which are the “best” cars out there as they currently stand.

Taking out of the equation the drivers, tactics, reliability and other team influences, what is the order of the best cars as I think it’s turned round since the beginning of the season.

I personally think the Toyota and Red Bull have fractionally sneaked the Brawn and the only thing making a real difference at the moment is Jenson. Similarly with Lewis in the McLaren and the big disappointment is Ferrari with their drivers not getting the maximum out of the car (althought there has been some reliability issues)

My list

Toyota
RBR
BGP
Ferrari
Renault
McLaren
BMW
Williams
STR
FI

I struggle to see how the Ferrari drivers are not getting the maximum out of the car at the moment.

[AndyL]

The Brawn seems to have the edge when it comes to race pace, and they were slightly more compromised by the heat than other teams were in Bahrain, so I would still but them first.

My list
Brawn
Red Bull
Toyota
McLaren
Williams
Renault
Ferrari
STR
BMW
Indians

I think that's pretty much spot on.

I would possibly argue that McLaren and Williams could be the other way round, as I think Lewis has out-performed the car to some extent, while Williams have under-performed with a car that has a lot of potential. But you could call that either way.

[Sonic]

Problem is the order is soooo fluid. Cars working well at one track and not at another.

For what its worth my order would be;

Brawn
RBR
Toyota
Mclaren
Ferrari
Renault
Williams
Bmw
Force india
STR

[Knock-on]

Toyota better than BGP?

Ferrari better than McLaren?

You think that any strong results of these teams are purely down to their British drivers, and not the cars. Which I don't agree with at all.

I do think Toyota are ahead of BGP by using facts and opinion.

Facts: Their two cars shut out the front row and their two drivers posting the 2 fastest laps of the GP.

Opinion: I do not class Timo or Jarno as being as good as Jenson although think they are comparable with Rubens.

Conclusion: The Totota, at the bahrain GP is faster than the BGP car.

You may disagree but it would be nice to know why?

With the McLaren, I think it's better but that the real difference in that car is Lewis pulling it up by it's boot straps. This is just opinion but it's the same opinion I share about Alonso and did about Schumy. I think these drivers are a step apart.

[Knock-on]

Knock-on, I'm pretty sure you're overrating the abilities of Button and Hamilton. :p : According to your criteria they would be overwhelmingly the best drivers in F1.


In the top 3 along with Alonso ;)

Question then. How do you rate the ability of Rubens, Jnr and Heikki?

[Storm]

Rubens is a very competent driver IMO although this year Jenson seems to be doing much better than him (has he out-qualified and out-raced him 4-0? or is it 3-1 in qually)

So knock, I know you want to hype up Button and Hamilton but no way can you escape the fact that Brawn GP has the quickest car out there (in the race!)
Maybe in qualifying, the Toyotas and RedBulls are better (or have drivers who are better at qualifying..prime example is Trulli who is exceptionally quick driver in qualifying as is Webber I think)

so I would put the list on pace (overall, but more so race as thats what matters) -

Brawn
RedBull
Toyota
McLaren
Renault/STR
Ferrari/Williams
BMW
Force India

[pino]

Ok here's my list :p :

Brawn
RBR
Toyota
Mclaren
Renault
Ferrari
Williams
STR
Bmw
Force india

[Mark]

BMW are the disappointment of the year for me!

[jens]

In the top 3 along with Alonso ;)

Question then. How do you rate the ability of Rubens, Jnr and Heikki?

They are all underperforming, of course. I think in one thread I already mentioned that Button's advantage over Barrichello seems bigger than Schumi's advantage over him. To me it's a clear sign RB is maybe past his prime or isn't comfortable with the car and hence currently slower than both Toyota or Red Bull drivers. In China Kovalainen performed well in a McLaren for once, showing that the "updated" McLaren has some notable potential.

I have noticed people aren't really sure, whether to put Renault or Ferrari ahead. I think Ferrari is a tad bit quicker. They have always reached Q3 and have driven strongly in points in all races so far until mistakes/problems/etc. Renault's P2 in Shanghai's qualifying was more like a fluke.

And finally I think STR is better than people give credit to it and I suggest both drivers are underperforming in it. Granted, I don't expect STR to match RBR, but while one car has been fighting for poles and the other one is struggling to get through Q1, then I'm afraid such gap is a bit too much to be explained only with car performance. The chassis is basically the same, just it has a different engine. RBR performed better than STR in 2006-2007-early 2008 too, but the gap has never been even close to being as huge as it's now.

[Knock-on]

I struggle to see how the Ferrari drivers are not getting the maximum out of the car at the moment.


China, Massa was 3rd when he had electrical issues yet Kimi finished only 10th?

Malaysia 9th and 14th despite the car being faster.

Australia both qualifying in the top 7 again but suffered relaibility.

Sorry, the car is fast. Perhaps not in the top 3 but showing it has the pace to finish in the points but when it has, the drivers haven't delivered until last weekend when Kimi scored.

The drivers are a bit demotivated and have their heads down. The team isn't really helping but the car, reliability aside, is quick.

Perhaps not quick enough to challenge for wins but at about on par with the McLaren I think.

[Knock-on]

They are all underperforming, of course. I think in one thread I already mentioned that Button's advantage over Barrichello seems bigger than Schumi's advantage over him. To me it's a clear sign RB is maybe past his prime or isn't comfortable with the car and hence currently slower than both Toyota or Red Bull drivers. In China Kovalainen performed well in a McLaren for once, showing that the "updated" McLaren has some notable potential.

I have noticed people aren't really sure, whether to put Renault or Ferrari ahead. I think Ferrari is a tad bit quicker. They have always reached Q3 and have driven strongly in points in all races so far until mistakes/problems/etc. Renault's P2 in Shanghai's qualifying was more like a fluke.

And finally I think STR is better than people give credit to it and I suggest both drivers are underperforming in it. Granted, I don't expect STR to match RBR, but while one car has been fighting for poles and the other one is struggling to get through Q1, then I'm afraid such gap is a bit too much to be explained only with car performance. The chassis is basically the same, just it has a different engine. RBR performed better than STR in 2006-2007-early 2008 too, but the gap has never been even close to being as huge as it's now.

Good points.

I don't think Rubens is doing too bad but is getting owned for sure and not relishing it.

in the old days, he could fall back on his #2 role but he doesn't have that excuse any more.

Kovy is flattering Lewis a touch although he did drive solidly in China. However, you have to take into account that Lewis was overdriving the car, pushing it wayyyy past it's limit and spent more time off the track than on it but still finished with him.

NP jr is a non-entity in my opinion and needs to be replaced. You cannot compare Alonso to him. It's wrong.

[jens]

I do think Toyota are ahead of BGP by using facts and opinion.

Facts: Their two cars shut out the front row and their two drivers posting the 2 fastest laps of the GP.


Toyota's stint on soft tyres was shorter than anyone else's, which enabled them to get those fastest laps. But Red Bull and Brawn, despite running longer stints, are just a fraction behind in that criteria.

In qualifying Glock was slower than Vettel fuel-corrected and about on par with Button.

[Knock-on]

Toyota's stint on soft tyres was shorter than anyone else's, which enabled them to get those fastest laps. But Red Bull and Brawn, despite running longer stints, are just a fraction behind in that criteria.

In qualifying Glock was slower than Vettel fuel-corrected and about on par with Button.

I suppose statistics can be used to prove whatever we want ;)

If the pace is similar, then there's really nothing to tell the two cars apart except the drivers and strategy I suppose.

Being objective, i think you would be hard pressed to definatly say which the fastest car is out of the 3 teams. The difference has to be the drivers and strategy.

[Ranger]

China, Massa was 3rd when he had electrical issues yet Kimi finished only 10th?
Kimi had a brake or engine problem, I forget which, he said over the radio very early in the race.



Malaysia 9th and 14th despite the car being faster. Poor luck and poor strategy. Very poor strategy.


Australia both qualifying in the top 7 again but suffered relaibility. True. Kimi did hit the wall however.


Sorry, the car is fast. Perhaps not in the top 3 but showing it has the pace to finish in the points but when it has, the drivers haven't delivered until last weekend when Kimi scored.
Reliability has nothing to do with the performance of the drivers. Neither do calls from the pitwall (you wouldn't attribute them to the driver anyway).


The drivers are a bit demotivated and have their heads down. The team isn't really helping but the car, reliability aside, is quick.
None of which means the drivers aren't getting the most out of the car.


Perhaps not quick enough to challenge for wins but at about on par with the McLaren I think.
Pace-wise it is there or therabouts, but there has been reliability concerns during every race for Ferrari.

Therefore, it is not as good.

[jens]

I suppose statistics can be used to prove whatever we want ;)

If the pace is similar, then there's really nothing to tell the two cars apart except the drivers and strategy I suppose.

Being objective, i think you would be hard pressed to definatly say which the fastest car is out of the 3 teams. The difference has to be the drivers and strategy.

Yes, rating cars is as subjective as drivers' rating. ;) It's impossible to prove that say car A is faster than car B exactly by 0,2s per lap on soft tyres, 0,3s on hard tyres, 0,1s in qualifying trim, etc, hence driver X is faster than driver Y by 0,174s per lap. :D

But it has seemed that Brawn, Red Bull and Toyota are quite similar on performance now, at least at Sakhir, while Brawn had an obvious advantage in the first two GP weekends in Australia and Malaysia. "Similar" is as precise as I can get and let's see, what will the upgrades for the European season bring. :)

[woody2goody]

Here's my order:

Brawn - still showed they have the most consistent car while still being as quick if not quicker than the rest. Button and Barrichello are driving beautifully and it was only a poor strategy that prevented Rubens from joining Jenson on the podium in Sakhir.

RBR - seem to have a tiny (prob. 0.050) advantage over Brawn for raw pace but aren't as consistent. Webber will be back near the front in the coming races, especially Monaco where he's historically been strong. Judging by Bahrain and Australia the car has the mechanical grip to do well there.

Toyota - very solid car, probably doesn't have the outright pace of the other two, but seems to be very driveable. Did seem to not like the hard tyres at all in Bahrain so we'll have to keep an eye on that.

Williams - still a top car, as evidenced by practice times, maybe not as consistent as the others, and maybe the drivers aren't delivering at the important moments. They may have missed their chance of big points/wins.

STR - I think they are more likely than McLaren or Ferrari to get good results at this moment in time. As it is the same effectively as the Red Bull it is obviously a good car and it's probably getting it accustomed to the Ferrari engine that is holding them back.

Renault - It doesn't seem very quick really, but I think that they will have an aerodynamic edge over Ferrari and McLaren in Spain. In the last race we saw both drivers drive well and for the first time we got an idea of their true performance, which was solid if not spectacular.

Ferrari - They seem to have a quicker car than McLaren and maybe Renault on pure pace, however the reliability issues put them behind the French team on my list.

McLaren - Bahrain flattered them with their KERS and solid mechanical package, but I think, as Martin Whitmarsh and Lewis Hamilton said, they will struggle at Barcelona. I wouldn't rule out Hamilton at Monaco though.

BMW - Only just off the bottom, but Kubica in Australia and Heidfeld in Malaysia have shown the car has promise in certain situations. However in bahrain it just looked slow, slow and slower, and even with two excellent drivers they couldn't even prevent it from being last and second last. They should do better in Spain but I thought that about Bahrain too!

Force India - overall they still have the 'worst' car, but that's not too bad in F1 2009! Every team has had some good performances this year so ranking the teams is more about how high they have run, and FI haven't hit the heights of some of the other teams, despite some good driving in the last two races from Giancarlo Fisichella and Adrian Sutil. Their car looks solid though, and has a strong engine. They will continue to bother BMW, STR and Renault this year I think.

[Firstgear]

My list:

Brawn
Toyota
RBR
Mclaren
Ferrari
Renault
Williams
STR
BMW
Force india

[woody2goody]

Good points.

I don't think Rubens is doing too bad but is getting owned for sure and not relishing it.

in the old days, he could fall back on his #2 role but he doesn't have that excuse any more.

Kovy is flattering Lewis a touch although he did drive solidly in China. However, you have to take into account that Lewis was overdriving the car, pushing it wayyyy past it's limit and spent more time off the track than on it but still finished with him.

NP jr is a non-entity in my opinion and needs to be replaced. You cannot compare Alonso to him. It's wrong.

I think Rubens is driving as well as he has since 2004 this year. He's rejuvenated and he always goes well in Spain, so you never know...

Kovy hasn't done that badly this year even though that's what the results suggest. Bahrain and Australia weren't really his fault, China was good but Lewis is still outdriving him.

I did enjoy Piquet's performance in Sakhir, but you can see the pressure in his demeanour. I think he out raced Alonso in Bahrain, but that's the only time for a long time, probably since Fuji last year. I agree, he needs to be replaced if Renault are to have two cars consistently in the points. Fernando is driving the wheels off it.

[jens]

Williams - still a top car, as evidenced by practice times,
---


Practice times, alas, aren't really an evidence of a genuine "top car". And while in Malaysia FW31 seemed among frontrunners, I doubt it was in China or Bahrain. Williams has dropped backwards.



Pace-wise it is there or therabouts, but there has been reliability concerns during every race for Ferrari.

Therefore, it is not as good.

True, but reading the opening post, I think Knock-on concentrated purely on outright pace of cars, leaving reliability aside. So I hope you won't have a misunderstanding about that matter. :)

[jens]

Bahrain and Australia weren't really his fault,
--

Didn't Heikki cause that collision in T1 in Australia?


I think he out raced Alonso in Bahrain, but that's the only time for a long time, probably since Fuji last year.

Fuji? More like Magny-Cours. :) (I can't count that safety-car mess at Hockenheim)

[F1boat]

Brawn-Mercedes (but lack of new parts and testing hurts them sometimes)
Red Bull
Toyota
McLaren-Mercedes
Ferrari
Renault
Williams
BMW
STR
Force India

[DexDexter]

My list

Brawn
Red Bull
Toyota
Williams
Mclaren
Renault
Ferrari
STR
BMW
Force India

I actually think that Williams is still quicker than for example Mclaren but they are not maximising the car's potential.

[Sleeper]

Brawn: Over a single lap in qualy it isnt the fastest car out there, but over a race stint its by far the best. Bahrain wasnt the best of indicaters because of overheating worries that forced them to cut compromising cooling vents into the underside of the cars rear bodywork (from what the commentators said) and turn the engine down. This problem comes from the car being designed for the Honda engine but will be rectified for Spain.

RBR: Consistently second fastest and pushing the Brawns enough to make sure they cant let up the pace.

Toyota: Pace in the dry is too up and down, sometimes just ahead of RBR, sometimes behind but clear of everyone else.

Williams: Results havnt matched performance due to pitstop problems (Australia) and poor strategy (Malaysia & China). Pace droped off in Bahrain but not many cars where running new parts so it might be track specific.

McLaren: Lacks aero grip but is the only team to make the KERS work. Great traction and slow to mid corner speed gave them a fighting chance of a podium in Bahrain.

Ferrari: Faster than the McLaren and pushing the Williams, but KERS setup seems to be hurting the car (too high CofG), is clearly the least reliable car out there which drops it down to 6th IMO.

Renault: No great pace but in Alonso's hands is very consistent and picks up the pieces when another team has a slightly off weekend.

BMW: Brute force approach to aero clearly isnt working and KERS setup is even worse than Ferraris.

STR: Not had enough chance to get a full understanding of the car yet due to only having one test session pre season with it. Will do better later in the season.

Force India: Better than expected, 5 years ago being less than 2 seconds off the pace would have had you on the verge of the top 10, if not the points. Bahrain developments made them a clear thorn in the sides of anyone that isnt on top of their game.

Thats my opinion based over the first 4 races, but every team is adding big updates for Spain so I'm expecting at least some change to the order of play soon.

[Valve Bounce]

By far the most impressive team as far as I am concerned is Red Bull, considering they don't/didn't have any factory involvement. And it is their rookie driver from last year that impresses. And they don't have a bodgy diffuser. Everyone else is nowhere near as impressive.

[Cozzie]

Brawn
Red Bull
Toyota
McLaren
Renault
Williams
Ferrari
STR
BMW
Force India

[leopard]

So, BMW is second to the last? I rate them higher ;)

Brawn
Red Bull
Toyota
McLaren
Renault
Williams
Ferrari
BMW
STR
Force India

[aryan]

1. Brawn
2. RBR
3. Toyota
4. Mclaren
5. Ferrari
6. STR
7. Williams
8. Renault
9. Force India
10. BMW

[Garry Walker]

Toyota
RBR
BGP
Ferrari
Renault
McLaren
BMW
Williams
STR
FI

You must at once stop using drugs. That list is embarrassing to read.


RBR/Brawn
Toyota
McLaren
Williams
Renault
Ferrari
BMW
STR
FI

[Knock-on]

You must at once stop using drugs. That list is embarrassing to read.


RBR/Brawn
Toyota
McLaren
Williams
Renault
Ferrari
BMW
STR
FI

:D

It was fun to mix it up a bit and watch the indignation :p :

Your list is pretty close IMHO. From one race to another it changes at the top.

I'm not sure that McLaren are so high up when they were equal with FI at the start and Ferrari are definatly quicker than you claim.

[Knock-on]

OK, slight reorder is on the cards after recent developments and upgrades.

1 = Brawn and Red Bull
3 - Toyota (Although their performance goes up and down like a tarts knickers)
4 - Ferrari
5 - Williams
6 - McLaren
7 - Renault
8 -STR
9 = BMW and FI

[555-04Q2]

For me its currently:

1 - Brawn GP
2 - Red Bull & Ferrari
3 - Toyota
4 - Williams
5 - McLaren & Renault
6 - STR
7 - BMW & Force India

[jens]

Considering, how tight the field is, car and circuit characteristics play a lot of role in the outcome of different races. Every slight slip will be greatly magnified. So we can make only track-specific ratings, not "general" ones.