It's Potatoes for Pontiac

[Rollo]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jRROQxrU3YC0QnDQpk9h_BC6pZ5wD97QUL605
General Motors Corp. could be majority owned by the federal government under a massive restructuring plan laid out Monday that will cut 21,000 U.S. factory jobs by next year and phase out the storied Pontiac brand.

Saturn's gone, Hummer's gone, Saab's been tossed and now Pontiac has been thrown to the weeds.

This is starting to get kind of scary now. For if Pontiac keels over, then that means that Holden in Australia has just lost 30,000 sales a year (because it makes the Pontiac G8), and any which way you slice that it means that a minimum of AUD$1bn a year gets wiped off the board, which ultimately starts to bring into question the entire viability of Holden as a manufacturing company in Australia.

And it seems that I wasn't the first to realise this either:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25397459-661,00.html
GENERAL Motors will end production of its Pontiac brand in South Australia under sweeping cutbacks designed to keep the company alive.

"Our decision on Pontiac would result in the phase out of the G8 from the Australian operation," Mr Henderson said.

All in all it's a pretty dark sort of way to start the morning, I'm here at work this morning filling in quarterly tax returns (Q3 BAS) for a Holden dealer in Sydney who's managed to shift just twelve Commodores to private hands in 2009.

[steve_spackman]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jRROQxrU3YC0QnDQpk9h_BC6pZ5wD97QUL605
General Motors Corp. could be majority owned by the federal government under a massive restructuring plan laid out Monday that will cut 21,000 U.S. factory jobs by next year and phase out the storied Pontiac brand.

Saturn's gone, Hummer's gone, Saab's been tossed and now Pontiac has been thrown to the weeds.

This is starting to get kind of scary now. For if Pontiac keels over, then that means that Holden in Australia has just lost 30,000 sales a year (because it makes the Pontiac G8), and any which way you slice that it means that a minimum of AUD$1bn a year gets wiped off the board, which ultimately starts to bring into question the entire viability of Holden as a manufacturing company in Australia.

And it seems that I wasn't the first to realise this either:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25397459-661,00.html
GENERAL Motors will end production of its Pontiac brand in South Australia under sweeping cutbacks designed to keep the company alive.

"Our decision on Pontiac would result in the phase out of the G8 from the Australian operation," Mr Henderson said.

All in all it's a pretty dark sort of way to start the morning, I'm here at work this morning filling in quarterly tax returns (Q3 BAS) for a Holden dealer in Sydney who's managed to shift just twelve Commodores to private hands in 2009.

Only twelve Commodores to private hands in 2009?? I thought they was VERY GOOD sellers?

Never did see many Saturns about anyway. When the Saturn Astra came out they did not do too well.

How come Ford is doing better than GM?

Ford is bringing 2 new models (fiesta and transit) from Europe to the US in the next 12 months...will that save them..

[Mark in Oshawa]

The Ford family still has cash reserves, plus they went through a lot of downsizing a year or so ago. Also, they sold off Jaguar, Range Rover and a few other assets to get some cash reserves.

The new products hitting the showrooms over here now are already starting to make a difference in the public perception. Car and Driver was raving about the Fusion Hybrid.

As for Pontiac. It pains me to see the G8 leave the market. Heck, it is the first Pontiac I truly would lust after in about 30 years. Maybe ever. I always figured Buick was the marque that should have left first, not Oldsmobile. Saturn is just a a hodge podge. Cadillac, Chevrolet and GMC are the three divisions carrying them along right now.

It is grim times to be part of the GM family. My hometown has seen jobs go through all of this and I hope we don't see anymore.

[Camelopard]

How come Ford is doing better than GM?

'coz they make better cars......... :)

[Jag_Warrior]

Ford borrowed money before the credit markets froze up. Before that, Ford was seen as fighting Chrysler for who would fail the fastest. But since then, Ford has picked up market share. And Mulally's business plan might just work.

The downside for Ford is that GM and Chrysler will have a competitive advantage if they're able to reorganize under court order and Ford isn't.

[Alexamateo]

...
The downside for Ford is that GM and Chrysler will have a competitive advantage if they're able to reorganize under court order and Ford isn't.

Jag, Do you see that as an argument for the government not to interfere with the market? They might inadvertantly be punished for having foresight.

[Jag_Warrior]

Jag, Do you see that as an argument for the government not to interfere with the market? They might inadvertantly be punished for having foresight.

It's more to do with the advantages that companies get when they enter Chapter 11. But yes, if GM (and/or Chrysler) is able to gain the benefits of a bankruptcy by relying on the government, without actually having to file, I do think Ford will have been punished for acting responsibly.

IMO, all the government should do is offer the DIP financing that the market cannot (there is still no meaningful DIP market), seeing that the supply base is supported... and then let the chips fall where they may.

[SportscarBruce]

IMO Pontiac became terminally ill in the 90's when it became permanently afflicted with Grand Am Styling Cue disease. It became brain dead after the last Firebird rolled off the assembly line, rental car contract CPR only put off the inevitable.

You see, this is what happens when car company directors turns a performance brand's product direction over to biggest target/cheapest cost bean counters and market analyst.

So here we have it, the company who's cars once inspired hit songs and movies, the brand that earned fans by offering raw performance surpassing the cost of entry along with edgy, racetrack styling is now dead. We Sell Excitement became We Sell Plasticized Junk....

Goodby Pontiac. *snif*

[Roamy]

the little sports car looked good the rest was sh!t and belongs in the dumper!

[SportscarBruce]

Reflecting on the past (pics not actual, wish I had taken some but it didn't occur to me at the time);

I drove a '66 Tempest to high school in my senior year, although it wasn't a full-on GTO it was way fun to drive.
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2538758430101143058dgjWtS

also owned a ''67 white Firebird 350. Mine had a Molly Hatchet mural painted on the trunklid, headers, glasspacks, and Cragar SS rims

http://oldcarandtruckpictures.com/Pontiac/1967_Pontiac_Firebird_400_Sport_Coupe_W-hood_Tach_White_Low_.jpg

still have a spare turbo and engine for the 1981 Turbo T/A.
http://floridaclassics.net/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/IMG_3083.306153930.JPG

1987 Fiero GT
http://www.autofiends.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/fiero1.jpg

All of these were reasonably affordable, fun to drive, and great looking. Some people turned their noses down at Pontiacs. No, they weren't built to BMW levels of quality or refinement and yes, they looked faster than they went. But they offered more smiles per dollar than anything else.

[SportscarBruce]

the little sports car looked good the rest was sh!t and belongs in the dumper!

I think even the Solstice was marred with the Grand Am styling curse. Poor name for something that's supposed to be a fast Pontiac. Solstice, who the hell suggested that one? pffff

[SportscarBruce]

Vintage Pontiac commercials

1965 GTO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQnE37VvCoM

1966 GTO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJxIK7VVM9U

1968 GTO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53xlfQHqGms

1969 GTO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqJW7fv5rDE

1970 T/A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6iZjrt_GKo

1983 T/A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omrbwBv1oLI

1986 T/A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wupQ60mn6ys

1987 Fiero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wnn6Igw0q8

1998 T/A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9Ho-uyPock

[Alexamateo]

First Car I remember was my family's 1973 Pontiac Catalina Station Wagon. :D

[Jag_Warrior]

Some are referring to the G8 as the "poor man's M5."

I've never driven a G8, but I do think the G6 coupe is a pretty sharp little car for the money.

GM's problems are systemic and cultural (corporate culture). I was reading an article yesterday, while waiting for the dentist to jack-hammer my head, which detailed how Saturn was unveiled by Roger Smith. But from within GM, there was a great deal of jealousy over the attention the brand was getting. The UAW worked with GM. The Saturn workers worked with GM. The Saturn dealers worked wth GM. And for a time, customers flocked to Saturn in a cult like way. But GM was GM's own worst enemy. And now, unless the dealers are able to buy it, Saturn is going to die a miserable death... much like Pontiac will.

[Rollo]

And now, unless the dealers are able to buy it, Saturn is going to die a miserable death... much like Pontiac will.

Saturn seems to exist more or less as a weird thing that GM didn't quite know what to do with corporately. It was setup outside the GM... superstructure, and produced some stylistically oddball cars (what were they thinking with the S-Series seriously?).

I think one of the things that's scared Detroit of late is the Astra. The Saturn Astra (read Opel, Vauxhall, Holden) is of immeasurably better build quality the the Chevrolet Cobalt which is based on the previous model Astra (Astra G as opposed to Astra H).

I don't lament Saturn as a brand disappearing, but I do feel a little sad at the fact that GM North America after being shown better built cars, still continues to foist worse quality cars on Americans than the rest of the world.

[SportscarBruce]

Some are referring to the G8 as the "poor man's M5."

I've never driven a G8, but I do think the G6 coupe is a pretty sharp little car for the money.

GM's problems are systemic and cultural (corporate culture). I was reading an article yesterday, while waiting for the dentist to jack-hammer my head, which detailed how Saturn was unveiled by Roger Smith. But from within GM, there was a great deal of jealousy over the attention the brand was getting. The UAW worked with GM. The Saturn workers worked with GM. The Saturn dealers worked wth GM. And for a time, customers flocked to Saturn in a cult like way. But GM was GM's own worst enemy. And now, unless the dealers are able to buy it, Saturn is going to die a miserable death... much like Pontiac will.

Great post. I've read Corvette's political backers convinced the BOD to kill Pontiac's 2nd gen Fiero because it was simply too good looking, too capable, and too cost effective. So, instead of continuing to profit from two profitable sports cars that occupied distinctly separate subcategories in price and layout, the young puppy was put to sleep in order to please the old dog.

http://educatorstop15.com/proto3.jpg

In the present day I suspect its this same internal corporate political structure that keeps throwing good money after bad towards NASCAR marketing in the face of all logic whick states the program does friggin sell GM cars.

[Roamy]

well the sad thing is that GM has a long battle even with shutting this roach down. with the exception perhaps of the malibu an corvette the entire line pretty much suck in comparision to the japenese and T.I.R.Es. Locally I think Ford is comfortably ahead also.

[steve_spackman]

I don't lament Saturn as a brand disappearing, but I do feel a little sad at the fact that GM North America after being shown better built cars, still continues to foist worse quality cars on Americans than the rest of the world.

Yes ive always wondered why Ford NA and GM NA have a strange habit of selling good decent cars abroad, yet their home market never sees them??

The Astra never did very well stateside, and that was meant to be GMs 'world car'..Wonder if Ford NA will do well when they bring out the Ford Fiesta to the US populas?? Its their 'world car' so they say.....

It all comes down to what the people in the markets want. People in Europe and the US do not have the same taste in cars, therefore i dont see how they can brand it 'world car'.

[Jag_Warrior]

It all comes down to what the people in the markets want. People in Europe and the US do not have the same taste in cars, therefore i dont see how they can brand it 'world car'.

People often refer to the platform as "the car." What I mean is, these "world cars" are just basic assembly line platforms, body-on-chassis, if you will. The interior bits, engine options and certain exterior styling cues may be entirely different from one market to another.

The WRX for North America isn't exactly the same as the one for Europe, Australia or Japan - but they're all made from a single platform. The fewer plaforms that are needed, the greater the cost savings.

[steve_spackman]

Now that Fiat maybe selling their cars under the Chrysler banner, and compact cars becoming more popular in the US, why doesnt Peugeot and Citroen move in to get a share of the emerging small car market in the US?

[Jag_Warrior]

Now that Fiat maybe selling their cars under the Chrysler banner, and compact cars becoming more popular in the US, why doesnt Peugeot and Citroen move in to get a share of the emerging small car market in the US?

Of the French makers, only Renault has access to a U.S. based distribution network, through Nissan. And to be honest, neither Citroen nor Peugeot has a great name here, Peugeot especially (it had a rep as "the suck" in the late 80's and early 90's, when Peugeots were sold here). Like Fiat, Peugeot basically got run out of town. So they'd have to change any lingering negative perceptions and fight for market share against more established brands with strong followings: Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, VW, Mazda, Subaru, etc.... as well as whatever offerings we see from GM, Ford and Chrysler/Fiat.

As for an "emerging small car market in the U.S.", I'm not sure how fast that segment is growing. It could happen. But it's not cheap to build factories (or domestically build and then import cars made for the N.A. market), develop a supply base and then establish dealer networks. VW is plowing ahead. But then again, VW/Audi is a well known and pretty respected brand here. I can't say the same for either Peugeot or Citroen.

[Easy Drifter]

With GM planning on closing hundreds of dealerships there is the possibility of another manufacturer, possibly Chinese or Indian buying the buildings therebye gaining a network. They of course would have to staff them and how much equipment would be left of any use is another question.
In Orillia near me the Chev dealer bought the Pontiac dealership and then built a new showroom in the 'Big Box Mall' and shut both in town operations.
Both are now sitting vacant and have been for some time. The Pontiac outlet was right downtown but the old Chev dealership was on the original 'dealership row'.
There are two Chrysler dealerships which is crazy for the population.

[Rollo]

The Astra never did very well stateside, and that was meant to be GMs 'world car'.

The Astra Astra never did very well. However a quick look at the Chevy Cobalt:
http://www.automedia.com/NewCarBuyersGuide2007/photos/2007/Chevrolet/Cobalt/Sedan/2007_Chevy_Cobalt_ext_1.jpg
When compared to the Vauxhall/Opel/Holden Astra:
http://www.queenslandscheapestcaravans.com.au/images/2002HOLDEN%20ASTRA%20SIDE%20VIEW.JPG

...reveals that the two cars are pretty well much identical save for the front grille and headlight clusters and the tail. You can do this for a few "American" cars where for the domestic market they hacked and slashed.

[steve_spackman]

http://allworldcars.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/2008-chevrolet-cobalt-1.jpghttp://www.pistonheads.com/pics/news/10366/Vauxhall_Astra_VXR-L.jpgthats a better comparison i think lol

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yes ive always wondered why Ford NA and GM NA have a strange habit of selling good decent cars abroad, yet their home market never sees them??

The Astra never did very well stateside, and that was meant to be GMs 'world car'..Wonder if Ford NA will do well when they bring out the Ford Fiesta to the US populas?? Its their 'world car' so they say.....

It all comes down to what the people in the markets want. People in Europe and the US do not have the same taste in cars, therefore i dont see how they can brand it 'world car'.

This has always been a mystery to me. I think the problem is Detroit for years was infected by a management structure that pretended they were in control of the overseas wings of their companies while letting them build cars for that market. Since they wanted to compete, and those executives in Opel, Vauxhall or Holden wanted to keep their jobs, they built good cars to compete in that marketplace, but they often never were able to go to Detroit. The people there didn't want these guys they hadn't worked with coming in and showing them up. It was the peter princple in effect.

Another reason I think GM and Ford built better cars overseas than domestically because the market conditions that drove the European, Australian and 3rd world markets for cars forced the technologies of small car thinking and assembly. Also, you didn't have the UAW to contend with often. What is more, the foreign wings of the big 3 were not held to any convention or traditions of style, or heritage that almost had the North American head offices building cars no one was buying to keep dealer networks alive.

The mismangement of the North American car market only was tolerable when big cars and SUV's were in demand, since that was the portion of the market the big 3 could make money. When gas prices started to reflect something closer to what the rest of the world was paying, the Big 3's small car offerings were found wanting or were made offshore, putting all the domestic workers in jeopardy.

Detroit never caught on with the game they were playing. THey only had to notice the Canadian car market to figure out how the future could go. Higher gas prices on this side of the border dictate we buy more small cars up here than in the US. Not like Europe, but enough for the Big 3 to see where they were in trouble but they were blind to it.

It is a crying shame GM is pruning divisions the way it is, but Saturn should have never been started, Hummer and Saab should have never been absorbed, and Buick should have been folded into Cadillac long ago.

Pontiac sold well, and was building the most "Euro" cars in the GM fleet for the North American market and yet they couldn't sell enough to save GM.

I am of the opinion Detroit still isn't sure what the heck the people of North America will buy. Ford seems to be on the right track, but Chrysler and GM are too busy fighting to stay afloat to understand. IT is going to be interesting.....