Adjustable front wing - worthwhile or waste of time?

[AndyL]

In Jenson's interview with the BBC after the race yesterday he mentioned that the car is getting tired after four fly-away races:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8019491.stm
and the example he gave (at 1:25 in the video) was that the FFA (or FFAM) wasn't working. I assume he's talking about the Front Flap Adjustment (Mechanism). The lack of it obviously didn't prevent him winning the race however.
I remember seeing some quotes from a couple of other drivers earlier in the season also saying they weren't using it (Lewis and Fernando in Australia I think, but can't remember the source I'm afraid).
Looking at it from the other direction, I can't recall seeing or hearing anyone talking about having gained an advantage from using it.
So are these new adjustable front wings a waste of money?

[SGWilko]

What gets me the most is this;

It's a great idea, but you never know who, when and how it is being used.

Also, surely there will be more drag as the angle of attack is increased, so as soon as you duck out the slipstream, you get more drag.......

[wedge]

Also, surely there will be more drag as the angle of attack is increased, so as soon as you duck out the slipstream, you get more drag.......

That's why its adjustable!

[SGWilko]

That's why its adjustable!

Now, why didn't I think of that.......

So, is one adjustment (and remind me, how many is one allowed during a lap.........?) classed as flap up then down, or is flap up only classed as one adjustment?

[christophulus]

No one seems to have made much use of it yet - in fact a few drivers said in Australia that they weren't going to touch the front wing!

I think this overtaking policy needs a little more work..

[ShiftingGears]

In Jenson's interview with the BBC after the race yesterday he mentioned that the car is getting tired after four fly-away races:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8019491.stm
and the example he gave (at 1:25 in the video) was that the FFA (or FFAM) wasn't working. I assume he's talking about the Front Flap Adjustment (Mechanism). The lack of it obviously didn't prevent him winning the race however.
I remember seeing some quotes from a couple of other drivers earlier in the season also saying they weren't using it (Lewis and Fernando in Australia I think, but can't remember the source I'm afraid).
Looking at it from the other direction, I can't recall seeing or hearing anyone talking about having gained an advantage from using it.
So are these new adjustable front wings a waste of money?

On paper it looks advantageous. But I generally have heard absolutely nothing about it. I know that the Red Bulls don't have it. Maybe that would've helped Vettel and Webber pass slower cars.

[Mark]

I take it it's only allowed to be adjusted once per lap then? Otherwise they'd be moving it up and down all the time, high in the corners, low in the straights.

[AndyL]

I believe they can make 2 adjustments per lap, so I guess the simplest way to use it would be to flatten the flap for the longest straight and turn it back up again before braking at the end.

[chuck34]

I thought that there was some sort of ECU timing deal. You hit the button and the flap goes up (or down, I'm not sure which way). Then after some amount of time the ECU re-adjusts it back to "spec". Has anyone else heard that?

[Sonic]

I think the very fact that jens has said he went to use it but it had broken shows that it is used and that the driver noticed the difference without it.

[Sleeper]

You get 2 adjustmnets per lap. A lot of the teams use them but not so much as helping with overtaking (as it was intended) but to adjust the balance of the cars.

SGWilko: The front wing doesnt contribute to drag because all the flow coming off its trailing edge is worked by other parts of the car. In particular, the turning vanes under the front of the car and infront of the sidepods (for those that have them) help clear up this flow and the end plates help direct some of it around the front wheels, which have a much bigger effect on drag.

[Somebody]

Of course it creates drag - EVERY part of the car creates drag by the very nature of forcing a solid object through the air ("drag" is the force of the air hitting the car). It's true that the front wing creates less drag - less air-resistance, if you prefer - than other parts (for instance, the rear wing is very draggy indeed), but not that it's drag-free just because the wake goes to other parts of the car.

[Sleeper]

Of course it creates drag - EVERY part of the car creates drag by the very nature of forcing a solid object through the air ("drag" is the force of the air hitting the car). It's true that the front wing creates less drag - less air-resistance, if you prefer - than other parts (for instance, the rear wing is very draggy indeed), but not that it's drag-free just because the wake goes to other parts of the car.
I didnt say it doesnt create drag, of course it does, but that wake from the front wing hits the tyres, turning vanes, sidepods, gets forced under the floor to be pushed through the diffuser, so that in the end its not contributing to drag coefficient of the car because all the turbulant air is being directed and used or being directed around objects (like tyres, that have an aerodynamic profile similar to a brick but with the added complication of rotating) that would have a much bigger effect than any aerofoil.

[Jag_Warrior]

I thought that there was some sort of ECU timing deal. You hit the button and the flap goes up (or down, I'm not sure which way). Then after some amount of time the ECU re-adjusts it back to "spec". Has anyone else heard that?

I don't believe that's allowed, Chuck. Whether it's hydraulic or electrical, I believe the movements have to be initiated by the driver.

I'm not sure how much movement is allowed and if the allowed amount of variation changes track to track.

I would think this would be a great concept that all the teams and drivers would welcome. Maybe it's just not been fully developed yet, or maybe I'm missing something.

Maybe we can pry Hoop98 off the IRL board and get him in here to discuss this.

[chuck34]

I don't believe that's allowed, Chuck. Whether it's hydraulic or electrical, I believe the movements have to be initiated by the driver.

I'm not sure how much movement is allowed and if the allowed amount of variation changes track to track.

I would think this would be a great concept that all the teams and drivers would welcome. Maybe it's just not been fully developed yet, or maybe I'm missing something.

Maybe we can pry Hoop98 off the IRL board and get him in here to discuss this.

I thought that I heard something about the ECU controling the "return" phase. But I just found the actual rule, and you are correct. Only driver adjustments seem to be legal. I don't know where I heard that stuff, but I could have sworn that was what happened. Oh well.

And the variation seems to be 6 degrees. I would guess that 6 degrees could be different from track to track. Like at Monaco maybe 30-36, and at Monza 10-16 or something like that.


3.18 Driver adjustable bodywork :
A single closed section situated each side of car centre line in the volume bounded by :
- lines 450mm and 800mm in front of the front wheel centre line ;
- a vertical plane which intersects these lines at a distance 250mm from the car centre line ;
- and the inboard face of the bodywork described in Article 3.7.5 ;
is allowed to change incidence while the vehicle is in motion within a maximum range of 6 degrees, provided any such change maintains compliance with all of the bodywork dimensional regulations.
Alteration of the incidence of these sections must be made simultaneously and may only be commanded by direct driver input and controlled using the control electronics specified in Article 8.2. Except when the car is in the pit lane, a maximum of two adjustments may be made within any single lap of a circuit.

[Jag_Warrior]

And the variation seems to be 6 degrees. I would guess that 6 degrees could be different from track to track. Like at Monaco maybe 30-36, and at Monza 10-16 or something like that.

Yep, that makes sense.

[nigelred5]

It makes no sense to me to allow adjustable aerodynamics aimed at increasing passing opportunities, then limit it to twice a lap. either allow it or don't. in it's current form, it's a waste.

[Sonic]

It makes no sense to me to allow adjustable aerodynamics aimed at increasing passing opportunities, then limit it to twice a lap. either allow it or don't. in it's current form, it's a waste.

How right I am only time will tell. But I would hazard a guess that the team that opt into the price cap willbe allowed amoungst other things to have free adjustment on wings.

[V12]

Simple really:

If they could adjust them how and when they wanted, it would be worthwhile.

But since it falls into the FIA's stupid "use it x amount of times or for x amount of seconds per lap" thingy, it's a waste of time.

[pettersolberg29]

Heidfeld said it was useful - but after his recent performances that cannot really be justified!!

[Castrol R]

Adjustable front wing - worthwhile or waste of time?

The very fact that it is fitted means its worthwhile, it may not be a massive advantage but when you consider the lap time difference from pole to the back of the grid, F1 teams need to find every little advantage they can.

[Castrol R]

Adjustable front wing - worthwhile or waste of time?

The very fact that it is fitted means its worthwhile, it may not be a massive advantage but when you consider the lap time difference from pole to the back of the grid, F1 teams need to find every little advantage they can.