The United States Grand Prix, where should it be held?

[UltimateDanGTR]

OK, alot of us want a US gp back. Mainly because of the huge north american market just shouting out for a USA grand prix.

and I've been thinking (I know, im surprised too....), where should the USA Gp be held, if it was to return?. in the past we've had the USA GP at the following venues:

Sebring
Riverside
Watkins Glen
Long Beach
Ceasers Palace car park
Detroit
Dallas
Pheonix
Indianapolis

well, out of that list, lets see. Sebring-not F1 enough, Riverside-poor facilities I do believe, Watkins Glen-good track-indycar have raced there recently-but I dont see it holding F1-facilities are poor for F1 standard, Long Beach-Great street circuit-my personal favourite-not enough space for F1 like facilities, Ceasers Palace-Car park has been covered over by various building etc-and it was boring anyway, Detroit-good track-got potential-probably not enough space for facilities, Dallas-one and only GP was a disaster-no one will go back there, Pheonix-boring track-no crowds-just no really, Indianapolis-not F1s best friend nowadays

Personally Long Beach would be a great place to go, but the pit area would be a very tight squeeze, its bad enough for indy car

Another option is Infineon raceway, Im a fan of that track and could easily be done up to F1 standards, main area Id imagine needing development would just be pits and paddock.

thats just my opinion, whats yours? and any other possible suggestions?

[Jag_Warrior]

Road America would be the perfect track, IMO. But in addition to bringing it up to current standards, I'm sure that the main complaint would be, "it's in the middle of no where!"

As for Riverside, as far as I know, there is nothing left of that track. I like Laguna Seca, but I'm sure there would be complaints that it's not wide enough. Same for any of the newer "club tracks" that have been built or rehabilitated in the U.S. over the past few years (Miller, VIR, Barber, etc.).

Tony George is probably one of the few that still has enough money (since he already has a track), and few enough brains, to do another deal with Ecclestone. So if it happens again, it'll probably be back at the Mickey Mouse track at IMS.

As long as the Canadian GP returns, I'm satisfied. I'll travel to Montreal before considering Indianapolis. For F1, I'd want an F1 atmosphere.

[Sonic]

Vegas baby! But sod the car park, close the strip for the pit straight and hold it at night for the neon! Yeah baby.

[N. Jones]

OK, alot of us want a US gp back. Mainly because of the huge north american market just shouting out for a USA grand prix.

and I've been thinking (I know, im surprised too....), where should the USA Gp be held, if it was to return?. in the past we've had the USA GP at the following venues:

Sebring
Riverside
Watkins Glen
Long Beach
Ceasers Palace car park
Detroit
Dallas
Pheonix
Indianapolis

well, out of that list, lets see. Sebring-not F1 enough, Riverside-poor facilities I do believe, Watkins Glen-good track-indycar have raced there recently-but I dont see it holding F1-facilities are poor for F1 standard, Long Beach-Great street circuit-my personal favourite-not enough space for F1 like facilities, Ceasers Palace-Car park has been covered over by various building etc-and it was boring anyway, Detroit-good track-got potential-probably not enough space for facilities, Dallas-one and only GP was a disaster-no one will go back there, Pheonix-boring track-no crowds-just no really, Indianapolis-not F1s best friend nowadays

Personally Long Beach would be a great place to go, but the pit area would be a very tight squeeze, its bad enough for indy car

Another option is Infineon raceway, Im a fan of that track and could easily be done up to F1 standards, main area Id imagine needing development would just be pits and paddock.

thats just my opinion, whats yours? and any other possible suggestions?

Indy! Nice and close to where I live. :laugh:

[N. Jones]

Detroit, Dallas, Phoneix - not going to happen due to bad reception the first time.

I don't think Watkins Glen is up to par.

Long Beach would be great but the Indy Series has it locked up and they won't allow anyone else to race there.

Maybe a new track? I think the country has some spare land to build on. :)

[DazzlaF1]

Heres what i think fo a few ideas

LONG BEACH: This would be my pick without doubt but like people have said, the IRL have locked up the contract and the facilities would make Bernie go walkies away from it

INDIANAPOLIS: I never saw what exactly was wrong with going to indy, using part of the famous brickyard oval looked brilliant and the infield section i thought was decent, plus it attracted a decent crowd, but i dont think Tony George has the money that Bernie now usually demands

WATKINS GLEN: Fabulous track but like people have said, the facilities are not up to standard

MID-OHIO: I dont think they have the money either but this is probably my favourite proper circuit (with the exception of Montreal) in North America

CLEVELAND: I dont know, i guess it would be amusing to see F1 Cars racing round what is essentially an airport

STREETS OF NEW YORK: If money were no object then i think this would be absoultely fascinating

[AndyRAC]

In a fantasy world - Road America, Elkhart Lake a fantastic circuit. Would cost too much to add 'facilities' and would need 'Tilke-ing'......., so no!
There's is that massive track, I think it's near Salt Lake City, but has no Grandstands, and I can't think of it's name.......

[Blancvino]

OK, alot of us want a US gp back. Mainly because of the huge north american market just shouting out for a USA grand prix.

and I've been thinking (I know, im surprised too....), where should the USA Gp be held, if it was to return?. in the past we've had the USA GP at the following venues:

Sebring
Riverside
Watkins Glen
Long Beach
Ceasers Palace car park
Detroit
Dallas
Pheonix
Indianapolis

well, out of that list, lets see. Sebring-not F1 enough, Riverside-poor facilities I do believe, Watkins Glen-good track-indycar have raced there recently-but I dont see it holding F1-facilities are poor for F1 standard, Long Beach-Great street circuit-my personal favourite-not enough space for F1 like facilities, Ceasers Palace-Car park has been covered over by various building etc-and it was boring anyway, Detroit-good track-got potential-probably not enough space for facilities, Dallas-one and only GP was a disaster-no one will go back there, Pheonix-boring track-no crowds-just no really, Indianapolis-not F1s best friend nowadays

Personally Long Beach would be a great place to go, but the pit area would be a very tight squeeze, its bad enough for indy car

Another option is Infineon raceway, Im a fan of that track and could easily be done up to F1 standards, main area Id imagine needing development would just be pits and paddock.

thats just my opinion, whats yours? and any other possible suggestions?

With the changes at Indy for MotoGP, it is a better course. The Micky Mouse "S" is now gone and the addition of a chicane at the traditional turn one of the IMS slows the cars down heading into the the front stretch. There still is only one real overtaking opportunity and that's going into the F1 turn 1.

The other 2 auto races are complete crap in my view. I would love it if F1 would come back to Indy.

[veeten]

There's is that massive track, I think it's near Salt Lake City, but has no Grandstands, and I can't think of it's name.......

Miller Motorsports Park :)
http://www.millermotorsportspark.com/track_info.php

[UltimateDanGTR]

the facility and space situation at long beach would definatly be a concern for the normal person, and a travesty for Bernie.

Infineon raceway (has another name which I cant remember-sorry, no expert on american race tracks) would be a great place to go. Its not flat and has some very interesting corners. I've driver round there on Playstation with ferrari challenge and Gran Turismo, and its great fun to drive. only needed upgrading to pits and paddock. Not sure if its tied to any one series, I know Indycar, Nascar and Grand-Am series all race there, so I guess one cant be the holder with 2 other major motorsports being hosted there.

[tintop]

Road America or WGI. You'd have to build dedicated F1 casino cities around them both to satisfy Bernie.

[Ghostwalker]

but what about the "planned"/desired track somewhere near Niagara? or is it unlikely that it will be reality?

[Kevincal]

I would LOVE if there were an F1 race at Infineon. I live only 30 minutes from there! :D It is a cool track. The only thing it's lacking is a long straight.

Oh and I never call it Infineon. Sears Point sounds a lot better..

[Bolton Midnight]

Brands Hatch

[Jake Stephens]

No, Mondello Park

[anthonyvop]

When F1 returns to the USA it will be either near or in a Major, International City.

[Valve Bounce]

In Venezuela! I think Fangio came from around there somewhere. OK, so he came from Argentina, but that's just over the hill, isn't it?

[Easy Drifter]

I have my doubts the 'Niagara' track will actually happen and the more or less local word is it will be a 1.5 mile infield oval combo, too short for F1.
There have been tracks proposed for this area for over 50 years (yes I am that old) and nothing has ever happened. It might this time but!!!
The other thing is it is in Canada not the US.
The population base is sufficient and Toronto west end is less than 100 miles away. For those that do not know, excluding Mexico City, Toronto is the 4th largest city in NA and the GTA (Greater Toronto area) is over 6 million people. There are several cities just outside the GTA that have populations of over 100,000.

[ShiftingGears]

The US doesn't have any good tracks that F1 would go to, without heavily modifying/butchering them. Road America, for one.

[F1boat]

Laguna Seca is my favorite.

[cynisca]

My favourites are Laguna Seca and Long Beach.

But Laguna Seca, I don't know if that comes true. Due to the population. I have heard that a maximum number of events may be held there in a year. Due to the folks who live there. They want their silence there.

[DexDexter]

Long Beach, it would work there, the history, the setting etc... I'm sure they could get it, just make IRL an offer the can't refuse.

[big_sw2000]

I spose Daytona, and its infield is out of the question.
Would be good to see the cars on the banking.

[Griffon]

One thing you Long Beach supporters seem to be forgetting is that the Long Beach Grand Prix Association kicked out Bernie's circus because it was too expensive. And it hasn't gotten any cheaper in the intervening 26 years.

[Roamy]

Watkins Glen is the only sane place to hold it!!!!

[callum122]

I would love to see Road America be the track!!!

[veeten]

One thing you Long Beach supporters seem to be forgetting is that the Long Beach Grand Prix Association kicked out Bernie's circus because it was too expensive. And it hasn't gotten any cheaper in the intervening 26 years.

Long Beach, a history lesson...
http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cir-038.html

[Rusty Spanner]

The race should be at Long Beach. F1 should have never left but Bernie played hardball and lost. F1 had a US GP that was successful and it shot itself in the foot. If Long Beach had stayed I'm convinced it would now be considered one of the crown jewel events.

[markabilly]

SECA is first, second third and all other choices

DA Corkscrew

long beach, ny, houston, clevland and similar are all BORING
becuase of flat topo and lack of history

waktins would be good or mid ohio but the same problem as seca----no facilities to make greedy bernie happy

for me the only facility necessary is made of a long and winding strip of asphalt with plenty of hills

[Bolton Midnight]

The race should be at Long Beach. F1 should have never left but Bernie played hardball and lost. F1 had a US GP that was successful and it shot itself in the foot. If Long Beach had stayed I'm convinced it would now be considered one of the crown jewel events.


Didn't Long Beach lose, they lost a F1 race and all the income that goes with it.

If countries want the kudos and income of a F1 race then they have to pay.

[harvick#1]

Watkins Glen, without a doubt

there are plenty of passing opportunities as its a fast momentum track

[Shifter]

Long Beach would need its classic layout back not the butchered one that exists now.

Unless there is found a new street circuit, or they go back to Indy, a return of F1 would require a new world-class circuit be built. Not a bad proposition if you ask me. The 'states have a number of hardscrabble sports car circuits like Mid-Ohio, etc, but in my mind only Road Atlanta apart from Indy has a layout that could be considered close to world-class specs. We have nothing like a Spa or any other great Euro circuit in America, unfortunately...

Watkins Glen would be great but financially it won't work due to geographical location.

[christophulus]

Watched the IRL (Indycar?) this morning from Long Beach. Picturesque put the pits are tiny and that last hairpin is daft. I tried looking up the old layouts but no luck. Although I'm pretty sure a decent F1 circuit could be laid out around that area with some investment.

I understand that the manufacturers want a US race back but nowadays the only practical circuit is Indianapolis, which I can personally live without - can't think of a decent race there.

[winetowin]

Long Beach, Long Beach, Long Beach

The IRL cars look like sluges at the beach this year.

ALMS is great and would make a great support race to the F-1 cars. Lets bring back real racing to the streets of Long Beach.

[big_sw2000]

Watched the IRL (Indycar?) this morning from Long Beach. Picturesque put the pits are tiny and that last hairpin is daft. I tried looking up the old layouts but no luck. Although I'm pretty sure a decent F1 circuit could be laid out around that area with some investment.

I understand that the manufacturers want a US race back but nowadays the only practical circuit is Indianapolis, which I can personally live without - can't think of a decent race there.

HAve a look at this
http://www.etracksonline.co.uk/NAmerica/USA/CA/longbeach.html

[methanolHuffer]

Unfortunately, Indy is the only track up to spec. And it's kind of, ...er, flat and featureless.

If the money was right (and it's not), a new track built near a well populated and hilly area would be nice.

Angola, Indiana is about 2 hours from Indianapolis; 1.5 hours from Detroit; 1 hour from Chicago, and has some slight elevation changes and wooded areas to build it around.

Just an idea.

Southwest Michigan would make a nice venue close to the Great Lake, but eco-fascists would put up a major fuss.

[Blancvino]

Unfortunately, Indy is the only track up to spec. And it's kind of, ...er, flat and featureless.

If the money was right (and it's not), a new track built near a well populated and hilly area would be nice.

Angola, Indiana is about 2 hours from Indianapolis; 1.5 hours from Detroit; 1 hour from Chicago, and has some slight elevation changes and wooded areas to build it around.

Just an idea.

Southwest Michigan would make a nice venue close to the Great Lake, but eco-fascists would put up a major fuss.

Angola, Indiana? I have fished Lake James for years but that is no place, in my view, to have a race. That is water sport central, along with tobogganing at Pokagon State Park . Too far out in the boonies to be viable. The top hotel in the area is a 3 star and that's being generous (http://www.in.gov/dnr/parklake/inns/potawatomi/).

[Bolton Midnight]

Why not on an oval then quit if it starts to rain, show them what a F1 car is really capable of.

[anthonyvop]

Watkins Glen, without a doubt

there are plenty of passing opportunities as its a fast momentum track
Have you been to the Glen?

Too narrow and lined with Armco.

And don't forget it is in the middle of nowhere.

I wasn't speculating before. The US GP WILL be held in or near a major, international US city.

[nigelred5]

but what about the "planned"/desired track somewhere near Niagara? or is it unlikely that it will be reality?


That's in Canada, not the US. Riverside is gone.

Of all of the good roadcourses in the US, Road America and the Glen are 1 nd 2 in my book, and are the only tracks I think come close to comparison to f1 standards purely from the track standard. Both face the same hurdles, both are lacking in even some of the most basic track amenities, they are in the middle of nowhere and the closest thing to both of them is nowhere. Laguna Seca suffers from the same basic problem. Infineon would never pass muster with F1. It's a glorified test/club track. Long Beach in it's current configuration doesn't meet F1's standard for minimum track length and for the life of me, I have no idea where they would build a permanent F1 spec pit facility. Compare LB to what they did in singapore and valencia. It's the only existing venue in the US that could compete and possibly surpass Monaco for the international panache. Monaco simply doesn't count for track comparison sake. If that track were anywhere but monaco, it would have been dropped 30 years ago.
Mid Ohio is way too narrow and just seems like a very poor track for a modern F1 car. Miller, Barber, VIR, NJMSP, all very nice tracks, but again within eyeshot of nowhere, especially considering the glamour expected by the F1 circus. I just picture some of the current F1 facilities like sepang, Shanghai and compare them with racing surfaces that are sometimes twice as wide as the majority of the US tracks. Indy is the only thing even remotely close to the Tilke standard f1 now demands, and In this economy, the chance of seeing a new start up street venue is about as likely as me winning the lottery.

My vote for a REAL USGP will always be Road America.

[tintop]

Even with new money being pumped into some IRL tracks, the NASCAR soap opera has basically siphoned all of the resources and interest away from road racing in the US. It would be hard to justify a brand new state-of-the-art Grand Prix circuit anywhere in North America given the lack of interest in such a facility for non-F1 events.

[call_me_andrew]

Watkins Glen isn't unreasonable. It's owned by ISC so the money is there. The track's facilities are poor by NASCAR standards, so they're due for an update anway.

Infineon raceway is owned by SMI, but there isn't enough space on the track's property to build a F1 garage.

No one's going to invest the extra money in Miller for an F1 race.

And aside from Long Beach, I don't think Bernie would want a race on the west coast. It's a bad time for European TV.

Sebring and Road Atlanta would probably require a lot of modifications Panoz can't afford.

I'd argue for Daytona until I saw a simulated lap of an F1 car on the roval. Even the hairpins were still scary fast.

If you want to talk ovals...

Loudon-close to Montreal, not a particularly interesting track

Martinsville-would be a lot of fun, but it's in the middle of nowhere

Bristol-Sim predicts average speed of 190 mph on half-mile track with banking steeper than Talladega. I predict driver blackouts.

Richmond-Driver blackouts

Dover-Blackouts

Las Vegas-Blackouts

Fontana-Umm Let's call this a "maybe"

Daytona-Pave and we'll talk

Talladega-See "Fontana"

Pheonix-Another "maybe"

Charlotte-Good location, oval wouldn't work, but if they could build a half-decent roval we'd be onto something

[Triumph]

I don't know about specific locations, but it would be great to hold the event on one of the oval circuits, using the full oval - maybe Indianapolis.

It would interesting to see how F1 cars (and drivers) cope with an oval.

:-)

[Jag_Warrior]

Didn't Long Beach lose, they lost a F1 race and all the income that goes with it.

If countries want the kudos and income of a F1 race then they have to pay.

If Long Beach had continued with F1, either the tickets would have become prohibitively expensive, or the race would have lost money until it was canceled.

I think you've touched on an important point here. Most of the newer F1 races have been (at least partially) funded by governments, either national or state. What privately funded F1 race has actually made money for the promoters over the past decade? Maybe there is one that I'm not aware of. Maybe Tony George squeaked out a profit, but I've not seen any data one way or the other. These things are typically funded by governments under the auspices of the "return" being calculated in terms of public good: tourism and general economic impact on the area.

Ecclestone has a fee structure set up that would make it nearly impossible for a U.S. based private promoter to do a deal with him. With little hope of a profit, why do it? And right now, no U.S. state or city would fill Bernie's pockets with money just to get "kudos" from a U.S. fanbase that is not much larger than the one for the IRL. F1 isn't that popular here to begin with. And if money was going to be spent on an auto racing venue, why not go with the most popular form of motorsport here (NASCAR)? Why not go with one which tends to bring not just profits to the promoter, but also the community (again NASCAR)?

Warren Buffett isn't a car guy. And I think Bill Gates lost interest in auto racing after Andy Evans made a mess of IMSA. So our two main "rich guys" probably wouldn't throw their dollars at this. I'd love to see it happen. But the best hope that I see for the U.S. GP is Tony George's dopey design maybe making a return.

[markabilly]

Even with new money being pumped into some IRL tracks, the NASCAR soap opera has basically siphoned all of the resources and interest away from road racing in the US. It would be hard to justify a brand new state-of-the-art Grand Prix circuit anywhere in North America given the lack of interest in such a facility for non-F1 events.

well i do not like what you say one bit... :mad: .INDEED nascar!!!! :mad:

unfortunately while I absolutely despise what you say, I must agree that you are way too right!!!

Even the Indy, that since 1991, reserved itself exclusively for the greatest circus in racing, has done gone nastycar several years ago.....

and alas, jag also seems to be on point as well :(

[tintop]

well i do not like what you say one bit... :mad: .INDEED nascar!!!! :mad:

unfortunately while I absolutely despise what you say, I must agree that you are way too right!!!

Even the Indy, that since 1991, reserved itself exclusively for the greatest circus in racing, has done gone nastycar several years ago.....

and alas, jag also seems to be on point as well :(

It's amazing to see the attitudinal changes at tracks like Pocono and WGI, once the NASCAR influence has taken over. Unbelievably arrogant and unhelpful to the road racing set. Like night and day.

[methanolHuffer]

Angola, Indiana? I have fished Lake James for years but that is no place, in my view, to have a race. That is water sport central, along with tobogganing at Pokagon State Park . Too far out in the boonies to be viable. The top hotel in the area is a 3 star and that's being generous (http://www.in.gov/dnr/parklake/inns/potawatomi/).

Yeah, you're right. I'm just thinking out loud.
Something within traveling distance from a few metros and elevation changes
was what I was thinking.

I certainly didn't consider hotels ;)

There were rumors of a super-track/motorsport complex being planned in Lake County, Indiana (further west of angola area.). But the locals hated the idea of nitro-dragsters and sportscars etc. making noise every other weekend. Probably that reaction would be anywhere.

[call_me_andrew]

I can't get this Charlotte roval out of my head. I've looked at sat photos, and I think if the pit road situation can be resolved, we could make a good track out of it.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m315/mustang6172/Ltry1.jpg

It's not perfect and it would require some modifications to the lighting system, some pavement, new curbs, additions to the SAFER Barrier, and sod. The track seats 167,000 so if Bernie wants $20 million, charing $120 per seat would break even. That's less than half of what most other tracks charge, and you can see the whole track from any seat. Plus it's not taking revenue from Friday and Saturday into account. Weak U.S. Dollar should attract an international crowd.

[nigelred5]

It's amazing to see the attitudinal changes at tracks like Pocono and WGI, once the NASCAR influence has taken over. Unbelievably arrogant and unhelpful to the road racing set. Like night and day.

NASCAR and ISC ave sucked the lifeblood out of every track they have taken over, regardless of how much money they spend on them. They killed my favorite oval, stoe the grandstands for WGI, dug trenches in the racing surface and forbid any potential purchaser from reopening it as a race track.
I hope Brian France and his sister continue to drive that company and series right into the ground. They would close WGI in a heartbeat if they didnt' need it for the Grand AM to run on 2x a year.

[nigelred5]

I can't get this Charlotte roval out of my head. I've looked at sat photos, and I think if the pit road situation can be resolved, we could make a good track out of it.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m315/mustang6172/Ltry1.jpg

It's not perfect and it would require some modifications to the lighting system, some pavement, new curbs, additions to the SAFER Barrier, and sod. The track seats 167,000 so if Bernie wants $20 million, charing $120 per seat would break even. That's less than half of what most other tracks charge, and you can see the whole track from any seat. Plus it's not taking revenue from Friday and Saturday into account. Weak U.S. Dollar should attract an international crowd.

You might as well draw a set of Mouse ears in the infield. F1 would never go for such a track, even if it makes perfect sense for American spectators. Do you remember all the girlyman whining at indy about how dangerous oval turn 1 was? Most of The F1 drivers need to man up. TEll Bruton Smith he could make 10M, not loose 20m on it and he'd be first in line at Bernie's door.

An F1 venue you could see 100% of the trak from the grandstands. :thumbsup:

[woody2goody]

Laguna or Sonoma would my my choices, however I don't reckon they would provide even decent overtaking places for F1, and the are very good tracks so I wouldn't want them changing.

Indy is probably the best option. There haven't been many crap races there since 2000 (apart from the obvious one that is).

Someone said that they wouldn't build a track in the US just for F1. Well why not build a purpose built road circuit that NASCAR, Indycar, ALMS and others could use, thereby justifying the price. The USA must have some land suitable to build a racetrack on within 5-10 miles of an airport/big city.

The US has some great potential for nice tracks but is stuck in the past largely when it comes to road racing, and especially F1.

I'd love both the US and Canadian GPs to return because in my view F1 needs them badly. Plus, tea-time races are great to watch in the UK! :)

[woody2goody]

You might as well draw a set of Mouse ears in the infield. F1 would never go for such a track, even if it makes perfect sense for American spectators. Do you remember all the girlyman whining at indy about how dangerous oval turn 1 was? Most of The F1 drivers need to man up.

I'm not sure 'manning up' is the issue here. Yes, a lot of fuss was made, possibly unnecessarily by the tyre companies, but let's face it, that corner nearly killed Ralf Schumacher twice in the space of two years.

However those problems were sorted and we had very good racing there the last 3 years.

[call_me_andrew]

Well if you don't like that, I'm willing to bet you'll hate plan B.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m315/mustang6172/wrong.jpg

As much sense as Indy makes, there's still a few problems with it. The manufactuers want a race in the U.S. because they conduct a lot of buisness here, but they conduct most of their buisness in the coastal areas; not the midwest.

I thought I did a pretty good job with the first infield section. There's at least three fast turns in there (including the kink) and I think you might be able to pass in the kink. I suppose I could move the chute back to the oval back a little. My plan was to keep the cars off the banking in oval 1&2.

I guess I could improve a lot on the second infield section.

[call_me_andrew]

Would you say the yellow sections would make it better or worse?

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m315/mustang6172/Ltry2.jpg

[Brendo]

laguna seca is my vote

[UltimateDanGTR]

I think this charlotte track would be more to bernies liking:

[nigelred5]

Well if you don't like that, I'm willing to bet you'll hate plan B.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m315/mustang6172/wrong.jpg

As much sense as Indy makes, there's still a few problems with it. The manufactuers want a race in the U.S. because they conduct a lot of buisness here, but they conduct most of their buisness in the coastal areas; not the midwest.

I thought I did a pretty good job with the first infield section. There's at least three fast turns in there (including the kink) and I think you might be able to pass in the kink. I suppose I could move the chute back to the oval back a little. My plan was to keep the cars off the banking in oval 1&2.

I guess I could improve a lot on the second infield section.


I wasn't really knocking your layout, more Bernie and the F1 drivers reception of another infield track. They always complained about Indy being a Mickey mouse track and made such a big deal about the 9 degree banking. Charlotte would be far worse with the 24 degree banking, no matter what the layout

[wmcot]

I think this charlotte track would be more to bernies liking:

But the grandstands would be filled with guys with beer bellies wearing "Chevy" hats and drinking Bud trying to figure out who stole the fenders off the cars... ;)

[wmcot]

Someone said that they wouldn't build a track in the US just for F1. Well why not build a purpose built road circuit that NASCAR, Indycar, ALMS and others could use, thereby justifying the price. The USA must have some land suitable to build a racetrack on within 5-10 miles of an airport/big city.

Miller Motorsports park is already used by ALMS, Grand-Am, NASCAR (Camping World Series), MotoGP, and numerous other junior classes and formulas. It is about 30 minutes from the Salt Lake airport. The problem is that nobody is going to put up the kind of money that Bernie wants! :(

[DexDexter]

I wasn't really knocking your layout, more Bernie and the F1 drivers reception of another infield track. They always complained about Indy being a Mickey mouse track and made such a big deal about the 9 degree banking. Charlotte would be far worse with the 24 degree banking, no matter what the layout

F1 is the pinnacle of motorsports, don't they deserve better than an infield of a circuit designed for something else?

[Big Ben]

i don't really care but if it's possible no oval tracks please

[UltimateDanGTR]

But the grandstands would be filled with guys with beer bellies wearing "Chevy" hats and drinking Bud trying to figure out who stole the fenders off the cars... ;)

Bernie wouldnt care about the silly hat wearers, aslong as they all paid their ridiculously high prices to get in :D

[Jag_Warrior]

But the grandstands would be filled with guys with beer bellies wearing "Chevy" hats and drinking Bud trying to figure out who stole the fenders off the cars... ;)

No, I don't think it would be filled with guys with beer bellies... or anybody else, for that matter. Charlotte is a fairly short drive for me. But I know I wouldn't waste time going there to see that. And at $120 a ticket, it would be a ghost town. If you let people in for free, I'm still not convinced you'd get 167,000 in there.

I went to the ALMS race at the Charlotte roval about ten years ago. It was me and a few thousand (less than 10K) of my new best friends. Just so it wouldn't look so pitiful on TV, they pulled the ol' IRL/ABC TV trick: bunched us all together on the front straight. ALMS soon dropped all rovals, when it became apparent that the road racing fan base had no interest in seeing high performance, exotic sports cars on dopey NASCAR rovals. I guess it's a nice fantasy, but Smith would never sign a check for $20 million to Ecclestone, so he could hold a race that would be an even bigger joke than the one at IMS.

[nigelred5]

F1 is the pinnacle of motorsports, don't they deserve better than an infield of a circuit designed for something else?
"Deserve"? I'd say you'd neet to first find 100 million or so US voters that would agree with you first. You're a loong loong way down the pecking order of groups especially sports before you're going to find support for people that feel F1 "deserves" anything in this country. Personally, I don't feel F1 "DESERVES" anything.

IMHO, They basically haven't built a permanent F1 roadcourse track in this country since Watkins Glen was built. I'm gonna say no. Taxpayers build Baseball and football stadiums in this country, but I've yet to see anything more than what amounts to a token contribution to a racing project of any sort in this country.

There's been tons of money spent that COULD HAVE built a purposebuilt facility to be used by all series interested in road racing, but it's generally been wasted on constructing temporary tracks. Then you have to look at road racing in general in this country. As far as major sports popularity goes in this country, F1 comes in right behind co-ed table hockey.

If NASCAR, a domestic series that holds several hundred events a year under their umbrella, can't get tracks built with or without taxpayer dollars these days, F1 doesnt' have a chance for one race. Bernie hasset a bad precident. Hold a race promoter and country ransome until they spend a few hundred million dollars developing and then promoting a race, only to skip town yet again when he raises the price 10X. Even dumb arse Tony George spent one hell of a lot of money to make monumental changes to IMS, for what? At least they have a better facility now, but hte USGP is nowhere to be seen. Bernie doesn't give a rat's arse about being in this country, or North America for that matter, or ther would still be races in Canada, the US and Mexico.

To be honest, there's quite a bit of hostility towards autoracing facilities of any type in many areas of the US. NIMBY's are pretty powerful. I've had at least three groups wanting to build a racing facility run out of this area over the past few years, one of which was a 2.5+/- mile Road course and two were NASCAR style ovals. Real-estate prices anywhere near major metropolitan areas are astronomical so a major road racing facility near a metro area is a non starter IMHO. I"ll say NO ONE is going to build a 2.5mile+ 150 foot wide tilke-esque road racing facility in this country, private or otherwise for F1. Todays F1 tracks are wide, flat, boring and featureless. Not a one has the character of tracks like Watkins Glen, Road America, Laguna Seca or Road Atlanta.

IMHO, if F1 wants to race in the US, F1 needs to accept what we have. There's nothing WRONG per se with any of our top road racing circuits and I for one never saw Indy as any more boring than most of the newer F1 courses. IMS is a phenominal facility overall. F1 simply needs to re-focus on what they need to be, where and on what they are willing to race. If they want to continue to follow the money to third world nations and emerging economies looking for international acceptance as a country that has "arrived", so be it. Otherwise, we'll continue to be part of the group of nations like France, Germany, Canada that refuse to pay his ransome any longer.

I enjoy F1 thoroughly, but it's not even close to an "at any cost type" event to me or most Americans.

[DexDexter]

"Deserve"? I'd say you'd neet to first find 100 million or so US voters that would agree with you first. You're a loong loong way down the pecking order of groups especially sports before you're going to find support for people that feel F1 "deserves" anything in this country. Personally, I don't feel F1 "DESERVES" anything.

IMHO, They basically haven't built a permanent F1 roadcourse track in this country since Watkins Glen was built. I'm gonna say no. Taxpayers build Baseball and football stadiums in this country, but I've yet to see anything more than what amounts to a token contribution to a racing project of any sort in this country.

There's been tons of money spent that COULD HAVE built a purposebuilt facility to be used by all series interested in road racing, but it's generally been wasted on constructing temporary tracks. Then you have to look at road racing in general in this country. As far as major sports popularity goes in this country, F1 comes in right behind co-ed table hockey.

If NASCAR, a domestic series that holds several hundred events a year under their umbrella, can't get tracks built with or without taxpayer dollars these days, F1 doesnt' have a chance for one race. Bernie hasset a bad precident. Hold a race promoter and country ransome until they spend a few hundred million dollars developing and then promoting a race, only to skip town yet again when he raises the price 10X. Even dumb arse Tony George spent one hell of a lot of money to make monumental changes to IMS, for what? At least they have a better facility now, but hte USGP is nowhere to be seen. Bernie doesn't give a rat's arse about being in this country, or North America for that matter, or ther would still be races in Canada, the US and Mexico.

To be honest, there's quite a bit of hostility towards autoracing facilities of any type in many areas of the US. NIMBY's are pretty powerful. I've had at least three groups wanting to build a racing facility run out of this area over the past few years, one of which was a 2.5+/- mile Road course and two were NASCAR style ovals. Real-estate prices anywhere near major metropolitan areas are astronomical so a major road racing facility near a metro area is a non starter IMHO. I"ll say NO ONE is going to build a 2.5mile+ 150 foot wide tilke-esque road racing facility in this country, private or otherwise for F1. Todays F1 tracks are wide, flat, boring and featureless. Not a one has the character of tracks like Watkins Glen, Road America, Laguna Seca or Road Atlanta.

IMHO, if F1 wants to race in the US, F1 needs to accept what we have. There's nothing WRONG per se with any of our top road racing circuits and I for one never saw Indy as any more boring than most of the newer F1 courses. IMS is a phenominal facility overall. F1 simply needs to re-focus on what they need to be, where and on what they are willing to race. If they want to continue to follow the money to third world nations and emerging economies looking for international acceptance as a country that has "arrived", so be it. Otherwise, we'll continue to be part of the group of nations like France, Germany, Canada that refuse to pay his ransome any longer.

I enjoy F1 thoroughly, but it's not even close to an "at any cost type" event to me or most Americans.

Are you sure you enjoy F1, cause you keep bashing it in your every post?

By the way, IMS is not a phenomenal facility by F1 standards, when F1 first went there, was it 2000, Keke Rosberg commented that he was surprised how average the facilities were compared to European F1 tracks, he had been expecting a lot more since the place was meant to be the mecca of open-wheel racing, and I'm sure it is in the States.

[nigelred5]

F1 deserves every bit of bashing it gets. Many may consider it the pinnacle, but it's far from the best racing on the planet, it's simply the most EXPENSIVE.

[DexDexter]

F1 deserves every bit of bashing it gets. Many may consider it the pinnacle, but it's far from the best racing on the planet, it's simply the most EXPENSIVE.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. It's a good thing there are plenty of differents types of racing to choose from. I think it's the best racing on earth, I just love it.

[Placid]

If Detroit is selected, I go for Belle Isle. Other than that, it will be Barber
Motorsports, Road Atlanta, or Road America.

[Jag_Warrior]

If Detroit is selected, I go for Belle Isle. Other than that, it will be Barber
Motorsports, Road Atlanta, or Road America.

For some reason, I hadn't thought about Road Atlanta. What would need to be changed about that track to take it to F1 standards?

[nigelred5]

For some reason, I hadn't thought about Road Atlanta. What would need to be changed about that track to take it to F1 standards?

A lot.

[markabilly]

Are you sure you enjoy F1, cause you keep bashing it in your every post?

By the way, IMS is not a phenomenal facility by F1 standards, when F1 first went there, was it 2000, Keke Rosberg commented that he was surprised how average the facilities were compared to European F1 tracks, he had been expecting a lot more since the place was meant to be the mecca of open-wheel racing, and I'm sure it is in the States.
FACILITIES????

You mean the restroom, pit boxes and other the pretty areas for sponors/bernie/max to get their little egos stroked and other such crapola?

Yeah that is WHAT is really important..........

[Griffon]

For some reason, I hadn't thought about Road Atlanta. What would need to be changed about that track to take it to F1 standards?

$100,000,000 in constuction. All new pits, garages, team suties. Not to mention the removal of the hill on the outside of turn 12 which requires other changes such as moving the support pits. Turns 10a, 10b and the chicane would probably need to be rebuilt.

[markabilly]

Problem is Bernie gets a ton of money fom places like china, where spectators were obviously missing big time

In China, an entire grand stand taken up by giant white letters advertising some kind of 2009 expo.....what about Turkey? same

Bernie isn't bothered though, he gets his money and that's all that matters to him.

In america, f1 is simply SpeedTV -


But remember - formula 1 is not actually a WORLD championship, but is only called that, and currently their is NO grand prix in the most affluent center on this earth in canada and the usa.

Instead, there is a concentration of grands prix in countries that are run by dictators of varieties and a population that could care less about f1 and have no idea of the illustrious history where names of great tracks and great drivers actually mean something.

How far has f1 sunk? To the level that it will now end the season in a godforsaken desert with a name that sounds like a comic book/star wars movie place: Abu Dabhi!

:confused:

and no French Grand Prix - maybe no british, maybe no Spa--maybe once every two years, a german gp at hockie, australia is becoming more and more threatened
:(
who needs canada and the usgp??? Bernie don't so why should we need an actual formula one race here, which is "not the best racing, just the most expensive"

[SGWilko]

Problem is Bernie gets a ton of money fom places like china, where spectators were obviously missing big time

In China, an entire grand stand taken up by giant white letters advertising some kind of 2009 expo.....what about Turkey? same

Bernie isn't bothered though, he gets his money and that's all that matters to him.

In america, f1 is simply SpeedTV -


But remember - formula 1 is not actually a WORLD championship, but is only called that, and currently their is NO grand prix in the most affluent center on this earth in canada and the usa.

Instead, there is a concentration of grands prix in countries that are run by dictators of varieties and a population that could care less about f1 and have no idea of the illustrious history where names of great tracks and great drivers actually mean something.

How far has f1 sunk? To the level that it will now end the season in a godforsaken desert with a name that sounds like a comic book/star wars movie place: Abu Dabhi!

:confused:

and no French Grand Prix - maybe no british, maybe no Spa--maybe once every two years, a german gp at hockie, australia is becoming more and more threatened
:(
who needs canada and the usgp??? Bernie don't so why should we need an actual formula one race here, which is "not the best racing, just the most expensive"

I agree wholeheartedly (must be that Kool Aid), you would think - if common sense prevailed - that if you are without a US GP, you'd at least keep the Canadian race.

But no, such are the demands of the CRH, that the sport is being slowly raped by CVC and Bernie.

Currently, there is no Concorde, the teams - read FOTA - need to grow some balls and tell it like it is.

i.e. - If Bernie wants their monikers, then we need Britain, France, Spa, US, Canada, Italy, Germany, Spain and Australia guaranteed on the calendar.

What I would like to see is this;

All current circuits go on strike, and agree with all teams to right off a whole season. Let CVC go bust.

Teams and circuit owners become owners of F1. Have sensible fee structure, where the promotor of the race has a chance to make money that can be ploughed back into the venue etc.

Am I being too logical here chaps?

[DexDexter]

But remember - formula 1 is not actually a WORLD championship, but is only called that, and currently their is NO grand prix in the most affluent center on this earth in canada and the usa.

Instead, there is a concentration of grands prix in countries that are run by dictators of varieties and a population that could care less about f1 and have no idea of the illustrious history where names of great tracks and great drivers actually mean something.

How far has f1 sunk? To the level that it will now end the season in a godforsaken desert with a name that sounds like a comic book/star wars movie place: Abu Dabhi!

Lots of manufacturers, great drivers, different winners, steady high TV-ratings, very evenly matched cars. This year has been phenomenal and last was too. Losing classic circuits is not good but your F1 doesn't reflect the reality. Go on and do something else, watch "countries" racing or bunch of old Dallaras going around in circles.

[nigelred5]

Lots of manufacturers, great drivers, different winners, steady high TV-ratings, very evenly matched cars. This year has been phenomenal and last was too. Losing classic circuits is not good but your F1 doesn't reflect the reality. Go on and do something else, watch "countries" racing or bunch of old Dallaras going around in circles.

The problem is, the team and hte series probably spend some where on the order of what?
$2-3 BN combined a year to do that. Every bit of that same comtetition can be acheived for a tenth of that, and on tracks in the countries that seem to still be so important to F1 that they move the races halfway around the world, then run them at crazy times of the day to ensure the European fans see the race at prime time TV hours. Every time a racing series ends up being operated as a for profit business worrying about nothing more than maximizing profits, which is exactly what F1 has become uner the current ownership, $#it goes downhill fast.

Here's a novel concept, hold the races where the dang fans are. How more obvious does it need to be that there are no fans in China, Bahrain, Turkey, and Indonesia. That is my single biggest complaint against the way Bernie is running F1 out of Europe and traditional markets. If the markets you are so desparately trying to appease can't afford you, then the price of your product is the problem. F1 ticket prices are stupid. Plain out and out stupid. My race day ticket this sunday is $35, not $350.

There is clearly no justification for allowing a team to spend $200 million a year to be a second a lap faster than a team that spends $40 million. The closeness of this year's field proves there is a ton of wasted money out there.

[D28]

Bernie hasset a bad precident. Hold a race promoter and country ransome until they spend a few hundred million dollars developing and then promoting a race, only to skip town yet again when he raises the price 10X. Even dumb arse Tony George spent one hell of a lot of money to make monumental changes to IMS, for what? At least they have a better facility now, but hte USGP is nowhere to be seen. Bernie doesn't give a rat's arse about being in this country, or North America for that matter, or ther would still be races in Canada, the US and Mexico.

While interesting to speculate on a new US GP venue, it is futile, as the chances of that happening are between nil and zero. All the classic road racing circuits mentioned would be ideal venues, and none would even begin to meet Bernie's F1 standards. After the Indy example of TG, no promotor is going to invest millions in upgrades, only to have Bernie increase the price after the initial contract expires. There is a limit as to how many times Bernie can pull this trick, just look at all the venues for the race since Watkins Glen. I don't understand why a circuit like Road Atlanta is suitable for ALMS, but never for F1. IMO the US GP returns to Indy, or disappears, probably forever. Afterall, the longer it is absent, the more NASCAR can increase its strangle hold on American racing.

[call_me_andrew]

Well I doubt the USGP would go away forever. Bernie will die someday.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Well I doubt the USGP would go away forever. Bernie will die someday.

no he wont. Bernie will never die. hes like cancer. incurable :mad:

[DexDexter]

no he wont. Bernie will never die. hes like cancer. incurable :mad:

Bernie has made some very bad decisions lately, but people often forget that under his leadership F1 grew into one of the biggest sports in the world. I think the age is getting to him, in the old days Bernie's decisions/opinions seemed more sensible.