Congratulations BMW.

[Ranger]

If it were not for BMW, KERS would have been delayed until 2010.

Instead, they protected their interests, spent a bucketload of money (as did any other team producing their own KERS) and it backfired spectacularly. For them especially. Only 3 cars are running KERS this weekend which tells you all you need to know, really.

Which is hilarious as their non-KERS car is faster, which only seems mid-grid at best.

To me that looks pretty idiotic, considering 'cost-cutting measures' and all.

:down:

[aryan]

I thought 5 cars are running it (McLaren, Renault, and Hiedfeld), with the possibility of Kubica also using it.

[F1boat]

BMW are pretty hilarious this year - when they are not annoying...

[Tazio]

I thought 5 cars are running it (McLaren, Renault, and Hiedfeld), with the possibility of Kubica also using it.

Renault, Kubica remove KERS in Shanghai

Only three drivers will use KERS for the remainder of the Chinese Grand Prix weekend, after Renault and Robert Kubica removed the device from their cars overnight. As a result, only McLaren's drivers and Nick Heidfeld will run with the energy-recovery systems on Saturday and Sunday.

Ferrari had already opted not to run KERS this weekend, after concerns about reliability, while Robert Kubica was expected to run it after running it during practice yesterday. Renault's decision comes as a surprise however, but the move may be linked to them fitting a new diffuser to the rear of their car, following on from the Court of Appeal's decision on Wednesday to approve the controversial 'double decker' diffusers.
http://www.manipef1.com/news/articles/9111/

[F1boat]

Now 50% of the cars are DD, right?

[Powered by Cosworth]

McLaren and Renault are half-assed almost untested attempts. I'd give it 3-5 races before there are proper solutions.

[tinchote]

I'm really surprised that the top teams have seen the DD tested by the other teams since at least 3 months ago, and they didn't even partially develop something similar? :crazy:

[ioan]

Now 50% of the cars are DD, right?

No.

Only 4 cars (2x Brawn +2x Williams) have a real DD diffuser, 3 others have a different design with a higher middle section (2x Toyota and Lewis) and 1 one car has a half arsed DDD (Alonso).

[ioan]

I'm really surprised that the top teams have seen the DD tested by the other teams since at least 3 months ago, and they didn't even partially develop something similar? :crazy:

Yep, especially BMW and Ferrari. What exactly are they waiting for?

McLaren and Renault already got interim solutions and with that they leapfrogged half of the cars that were better than them.

[F1boat]

BMW might, right? Obviously the new DD are not the only problem, as Ferrari and Red Bull are also in front of them, not only the now ten DD cars. The car is slow, that's all. This will be a long season for BMW.

[ioan]

BMW might, right? Obviously the new DD are not the only problem, as Ferrari and Red Bull are also in front of them, not only the now ten DD cars. The car is slow, that's all. This will be a long season for BMW.

The car isn't slow, as proved by Kubica in Oz.
BMW are having, again, problems warming the tires. Ferrari suffer about the same problem to a certain extent.

[jens]

By the looks BMW's F1.09 seems like the most conservative car and maybe this is what has been fateful for them. BMW really has no excuses - they abandoned 2008 campaign in order to get an advantage for 2009, but in reality they are even further behind than in 07-08. This is seriously disappointing. Considering their early concentration on 09 they must have been a frontrunner in 2009 immediately. Since 2006 they have been mostly around the levels of midfield and "close to the top". What is the missing link that could turn BMW into a genuine frontrunner?

[F1boat]

They are too conservative. To win in this sport, you need to be revolutionary IMO. You can end like Hinda did in 2007, yes, but you can become very strong like Brawn GP.

[ioan]

By the looks BMW's F1.09 seems like the most conservative car and maybe this is what has been fateful for them.

You mean fatal.

[jens]

They are too conservative. To win in this sport, you need to be revolutionary IMO. You can end like Hinda did in 2007, yes, but you can become very strong like Brawn GP.

I thought BMW's design in 2008 was quite risky and in the beginning of winter testing it seemed like a flop. Generally the car turned out to be a bit inconsistent though, struggling on some circuits.

Maybe their complicated 08 design forced BMW to opt for a "conservative way" for 2009 to really have a wider setup window and have better development options. It's interesting that in winter that car seemed quite promising, so what has happened? Somehow the development has got stuck. Already in 2008 there were whispers that BMW's development pace is not as good as others.

[tintop]

I thought BMW's design in 2008 was quite risky and in the beginning of winter testing it seemed like a flop. Generally the car turned out to be a bit inconsistent though, struggling on some circuits.

Maybe their complicated 08 design forced BMW to opt for a "conservative way" for 2009 to really have a wider setup window and have better development options. It's interesting that in winter that car seemed quite promising, so what has happened? Somehow the development has got stuck. Already in 2008 there were whispers that BMW's development pace is not as good as others.

Time for some new blood.

[Sonic]

I dislike bmw after the way they split with williams, and their very me first attitude. The manner in which they set out on their own was very much sticking two fingers up at frank and saying "well if u can't build us a fast car we'll do it ourselves" and I've been waiting for them to fall flat on their face.ever since. And now it seems to have happened......huzzar!

[Dr. Krogshöj]

So Kubica was right all along. BMW shouldn't have given up on 2008 after their win in Canada, they shouldn't have concentrated on the 2009 car once they fulfilled their 2008 goal. They should have kept on pushing, because you can't plan the future, you have to grab any opportunity you get. And I am not being a smart ass - I am just reciting what Kubica said all along last year. He was right. They wasted a golden opportunity for nothing.

[F1boat]

You are right, Dr. Krogshoj. They were not like Honda and should have pushed harder. Title WAS possible.
Now it is very, very unlikely.

[veeten]

I've said before that KERS was a bad idea, foisted upon the teams for exceedingly insignificant reasons, moreso than the one of appeasing environmentalist groups and Green Party-mavens to make Formula 1 look like it was sensitive to such matters. So, to avoid better ideas, such as that taken by ALMS, Max decided to go with the brain fart known as KERS, which has and will continue to be more trouble to fiddle with (for both teams and organizers) than it's worth.

I say, Stop this mess, NOW! :hmph: Get rid of KERS and concentrate on more realistic methods, real-world performance, and actual savings for the teams and everyone else.

[ioan]

I dislike bmw after the way they split with williams, and their very me first attitude. The manner in which they set out on their own was very much sticking two fingers up at frank and saying "well if u can't build us a fast car we'll do it ourselves" and I've been waiting for them to fall flat on their face.ever since. And now it seems to have happened......huzzar!

You dislike them for all the wrong reasons.
First of all they wanted to continue with Williams if Frank" tight arse" W. would have agreed to sell them a share in the team as it happened with McLaren and Mercedes.

The fault lies on Williams for this one, not on BMW.

[ioan]

So Kubica was right all along. BMW shouldn't have given up on 2008 after their win in Canada, they shouldn't have concentrated on the 2009 car once they fulfilled their 2008 goal. They should have kept on pushing, because you can't plan the future, you have to grab any opportunity you get. And I am not being a smart ass - I am just reciting what Kubica said all along last year. He was right. They wasted a golden opportunity for nothing.

Hindsight is such a nice thing, isn't it?! :rolleyes:

Also it looks like planing the future was the way to go as BrawnGP is proving it right now.

[Dave B]

So Kubica was right all along. BMW shouldn't have given up on 2008 after their win in Canada, they shouldn't have concentrated on the 2009 car once they fulfilled their 2008 goal. They should have kept on pushing, because you can't plan the future, you have to grab any opportunity you get. And I am not being a smart ass - I am just reciting what Kubica said all along last year. He was right. They wasted a golden opportunity for nothing.
While it's true that hindsight is wonderful, you raise an interesting point. Had they done the polar opposite of Honda - compromised '09 to concentrate on '08 - then Kubica may have become champion.

That's not a criticism, unless one is to criticise them for not posessing a crystal ball, but it has turned out that Robert was right all along.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Hindsight is such a nice thing, isn't it?! :rolleyes:

Also it looks like planing the future was the way to go as BrawnGP is proving it right now.

1) The thing is, it's not hindsight. I don't pretend that I knew Kubica was right all along. I am just pointing out that he actually was. He didn't have the benefit of hindsight when he said all those things.

2) Brawn GP/Honda had nothing to loose. Nothing.

[Sonic]

You dislike them for all the wrong reasons.
First of all they wanted to continue with Williams if Frank" tight arse" W. would have agreed to sell them a share in the team as it happened with McLaren and Mercedes.

The fault lies on Williams for this one, not on BMW.

So because Frank doesn't want to cash in like so many others BMW throw their toys out of the pram?

Its not like even owning their own team has changed much in terms of the way the general public see it. BMW Williams or BMW Sauber. To the average viewer that makes them a partner (thus giving them a way to save face when they do a poor job).

The other thing that cheeses me off about them is they do not provide customer engines to anyone - and theres bound to have been demand.

[Dave B]

You dislike them for all the wrong reasons.
First of all they wanted to continue with Williams if Frank" tight arse" W. would have agreed to sell them a share in the team as it happened with McLaren and Mercedes.

The fault lies on Williams for this one, not on BMW.
If (and I accept it's a big "if") the recession forces more manufacturers to abandon F1, Williams' independence could place them in a plum position.

[jens]

Even if BMW had continued with car development in 2008 until the end, I think it's unlikely they would have caught Ferrari and McLaren... and probably that was the calculation made by the management of BMW-Sauber too.

[ioan]

If (and I accept it's a big "if") the recession forces more manufacturers to abandon F1, Williams' independence could place them in a plum position.

And if they would have sold 50% to BMW what would they have lost?
Look at Honda, they sold the team to Brawn for 1 £ (or $ or € or yen).
If Williams went with BMW's proposal, and cashed in, and than BMW would have decided to leave FW would have got his part back for 1£!

So I do not see what he had to lose.

It is obvious that McLaren only had to win from Mercedes involvement.

FW made a mistake and still the fans are hating BMW, IMO it's a lack of judgement from such fans.

[ioan]

Even if BMW had continued with car development in 2008 until the end, I think it's unlikely they would have caught Ferrari and McLaren... and probably that was the calculation made by the management of BMW-Sauber too.

Agree, they had no chance to catch up with McLaren and Ferrari. I'm pretty sure that the BMW F1 management is intelligent enough and they only halted the development of the 2008 car when they realized that they have reached the full potential of their chassis and no more gains were possible in order to catch McLaren and Ferrari.

[Sonic]

Had BMW taken a 50% share Frank would have been quietly shown the door.

[Sonic]

Agree, they had no chance to catch up with McLaren and Ferrari. I'm pretty sure that the BMW F1 management is intelligent enough and they only halted the development of the 2008 car when they realized that they have reached the full potential of their chassis and no more gains were possible in order to catch McLaren and Ferrari.

Agreed. They ain't THAT dumb! :D Kubica had a decent run last year but was only ever in a HHF/Jordan position. In the hunt mathematically but never a seriuos contender. BMW did do the right thing by switching to the new car they just ballsed up is all.

[aryan]

The 2008 BMW was a solid third. It was around a sec per lap slower than McLaren/Ferrari. There was no way they would have caught them. Also, they had a big gap to the rest, and were assured of their 3rd place. It could be said that they had nothing to lose, or gain, by developing the 2008 car. I think they did the right thing.

That doesn't mean that this year is turning out as planned for them, but who knows? If they had continued the development of the '08 car, maybe they would have been further back on the grid now?

[ioan]

Had BMW taken a 50% share Frank would have been quietly shown the door.

That's totally devoid of logic.
50%=50% how the heck can someone with equal rights be shown the door?

[Sonic]

Frank shares the company with Patrick right? I don't know the exact split but that would mean BMW 50%, Frank 25%, Patrick 25%.

Besides there always a hostile take over. :D

[veeten]

It is obvious that McLaren only had to win from Mercedes involvement.


But, then again, we have seen in past years when McLaren has won WDCs and WCCs without having to sell themselves to the auto manufacturers that provided engines/powertrains. The same can be said of other teams in the history of F1 that had gone down that same road (Lotus, Tyrrell, and even Williams for example).

Brawn is just the latest in that vein, in that they have a similar deal that Force India has; the only difference is that the Brawn GP chassis is better sorted, better running, and didn't sell their soul to the company just to get to the front of the grid.

[jens]

Brawn is just the latest in that vein, in that they have a similar deal that Force India has; the only difference is that the Brawn GP chassis is better sorted, better running, and didn't sell their soul to the company just to get to the front of the grid.

It has to be mentioned again that the current Brawn's performance is basically a result of Honda's development, who was a full factory team. Hence I find it strange, when people point to BGP and say: See, privateers can succeed in F1! Alas this is untrue.

2010 will be the real test for Brawn GP's ability to succeed as a private team.

[veeten]

It has to be mentioned again that the current Brawn's performance is basically a result of Honda's development, who was a full factory team. Hence I find it strange, when people point to BGP and say: See, privateers can succeed in F1! Alas this is untrue.

2010 will be the real test for Brawn GP's ability to succeed as a private team.

True, but you can say that the BGP example is the inverse of what has happened in the past, where instead of an auto manufacturer has bought out an independent concern, an independent or former manager has decided to take over a Factory involvement as his own.

Hmmmm... in some ways, isn't that how Enzo Ferrari got started? Originally as a the manager for Alfa Romeo and then using that core to start Scuderia Ferrari?
Maybe Ross is the new Enzo. Something to think about...

[SGWilko]

You dislike them for all the wrong reasons.
First of all they wanted to continue with Williams if Frank" tight arse" W. would have agreed to sell them a share in the team as it happened with McLaren and Mercedes.

The fault lies on Williams for this one, not on BMW.

How do you work that out? BMW would have shagged the guts out of Frank's team, IMO, no doubt.

All those years moaning that it was the Williams chassis was slow.....

No hiding now, is there?

Go Mario, straight up your own sphincter.....

[ioan]

But, then again, we have seen in past years when McLaren has won WDCs and WCCs without having to sell themselves to the auto manufacturers that provided engines/powertrains. The same can be said of other teams in the history of F1 that had gone down that same road (Lotus, Tyrrell, and even Williams for example).

Brawn is just the latest in that vein, in that they have a similar deal that Force India has; the only difference is that the Brawn GP chassis is better sorted, better running, and didn't sell their soul to the company just to get to the front of the grid.

:laugh:
I believe that next season we will se what can Brawn manage without a blank check from Honda and with only half of the 700 staff they had to develop the current car.

I doubt they will be anywhere close to the podium half way through this very season.

[ioan]

How do you work that out? BMW would have shagged the guts out of Frank's team, IMO, no doubt.

All those years moaning that it was the Williams chassis was slow.....

No hiding now, is there?

Go Mario, straight up your own sphincter.....

Well, they were right, the Williams chassis was slow, while the BMW engine was the strongest out there, and probably still is top 3.

Just because this season Williams got a step ahead due to the controversial diffuser it doesn't mean that they won't finish the season behind BMW. Bookmark this post and let's have a discussion in November. ;)

[ioan]

2010 will be the real test for Brawn GP's ability to succeed as a private team.

Amen.

[Sonic]

Just because this season Williams got a step ahead..... it doesn't mean that they won't finish the season behind BMW.

On this we agree. Its probable that BMW won't stay at the back for long. McLaren and Renault are already showing the hints of recovery pushing Williams back to the middle of the top ten. By seasons end I expect Nico will struggle to qualify top ten - which is why he needs to make hay and score BIG now - there might be a Renault seat (or two) opening up at the end of the year.

[F1boat]

I also agree that BMW will likely finish in front of Williams, at least they have two and not one decent driver.

[truefan72]

:laugh:
I believe that next season we will se what can Brawn manage without a blank check from Honda and with only half of the 700 staff they had to develop the current car.

I doubt they will be anywhere close to the podium half way through this very season.

agreed