Paul Tracy was robbed

[TURN3]

It's good to see PT back. I hope he does well. He has a shot. He's one of those guys like Al Sr. that might be able to jump in a one off and do well. That is if he lays off the Monster so that he doesn't get too fired up and hit someone or do something else stupid.

And no PT never won the 500. I don't think he was ahead of Helio when the lights came on, but that is really neither here nor there at this point. If we went by who we "thought" won then the record books would be a lot different, and not just at the 500. For starters Mario would be a two time winner.

There really isn't any basis here for an argument about who won that day. The fact is Helio was awarded the victory and it was ALL politics. We all know it so regardless of who you wanted to win, the people's champion is PT. The video is more than conclusive. One view of it is on YouTube from ESPN where they broke it down frame by frame. The ESPN dude laughed at notion PT wasn't given his rightful position. Evidence couldn't be more conclusive in a tax evasion trial.

Who crossed the bricks first? PT did, the pace car picked up Helio and PT was in front. The first car to finish 500 miles that day was PT even when cheated.

[garyshell]

Revisionist history. PT, while a fine racer & a great addition to the IRL, has never won the Indy 500. If we want to start incuding "woulda coulda shoulda if only winners" in the record book there would be a lot more names added to the trophy than just PT's.

No offence, but bringing it up, even in jest, seems to be a case of CC fans trying to keep the split alive, which is something I get accused of all the time. : )

Glad to hear Paul is coming.


I brought it up, and it has NOTHING to do with the split. So just stop that notion right in its tracks. Only thing it is keeping alive is how PT was robbed of a fair treatment of the protest. It was dismissed out of hand after initially accepting that there was a basis for it.

At least we agree that we are BOTH glad to hear Paul is coming!

Gary

[jimispeed]

There really isn't any basis here for an argument about who won that day. The fact is Helio was awarded the victory and it was ALL politics. We all know it so regardless of who you wanted to win, the people's champion is PT. The video is more than conclusive. One view of it is on YouTube from ESPN where they broke it down frame by frame. The ESPN dude laughed at notion PT wasn't given his rightful position.

Who crossed the bricks first? PT did, the pace car picked up Helio and PT was in front. The first car to finish 500 miles that day was PT even when cheated.


I agree that he (PT) won it!! That ESPN video with commentary was very telling. I also remember Dario, and Sam Hornish Jr. giving it to PT!! Anybody have that video?

I've been looking for it for years!!

[Chamoo]

I agree that he (PT) won it!! That ESPN video with commentary was very telling. I also remember Dario, and Sam Hornish Jr. giving it to PT!! Anybody have that video?

I've been looking for it for years!!

Guarenteed you won't find it. The IRL banned that film from youtube, google video etc... They made it their personal mission to keep that film out of the publics eyes, which convinced even more people that they knew PT had won the race, they just didnt want a CART driver/team to have another I500 championship.

Gary, DanicaFan has been awfully quiet regarding your little bet. He has completely ignored it. Maybe he is finally coming to his senses. But just in case, I even threw in a small reference to him at the end of my latest blog posting. It cracks me up. I wonder if he gets mad when people keep reminding him of how bad she really is?

[Phoenixent]

I brought it up, and it has NOTHING to do with the split. So just stop that notion right in its tracks. Only thing it is keeping alive is how PT was robbed of a fair treatment of the protest. It was dismissed out of hand after initially accepting that there was a basis for it.

At least we agree that we are BOTH glad to hear Paul is coming!

Gary


PT is just one of many drivers cheated out of there win at Indy
Ralph Mulford -1911
Al Unser Sr. - 1972
Mario Andretti - 1981
Paul Tracy - 2002

If you notice the last three driver were cheated by Penske the Pilfer.

[MDS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_frzAK-Md8

[jimispeed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_frzAK-Md8


Thank you MDS!! But there where even more telling pics/video than just that! Although that one is a good one!

[Chamoo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_frzAK-Md8

You'd better record that MDS before the IRL finds it.

Starter, your right, I used harsher words then I should had. She is not a bad driver, but she is not as good as she or DanicaFan would like us to believe.

[garyshell]

PT is just one of many drivers cheated out of there win at Indy
Ralph Mulford -1911
Al Unser Sr. - 1972
Mario Andretti - 1981
Paul Tracy - 2002

If you notice the last three driver were cheated by Penske the Pilfer.

I don't think Penske cheated PT out of the win. The arbitrary dismissal of the protest, after initially accepting it, was what robbed him.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Fact. Paul Tracy did not win the Indy 500. There was much more too it than the one shot where the light blinked at the split second it did. If he had a case he would have sued. What was he afraid of? Taking TG's money? Hurting his feelings? Scoring one for CC? No. PT didn't sue in civil court because he knew he would lose his case.

[jimispeed]

Fact. Paul Tracy did not win the Indy 500. There was much more too it than the one shot where the light blinked at the split second it did. If he had a case he would have sued. What was he afraid of? Taking TG's money? Hurting his feelings? Scoring one for CC? No. PT didn't sue in civil court because he knew he would lose his case.

Note to CC fans. In case you havn't heard the South lost the Civil war, CC turned off the lights and locked the doors the IRL will be running at LB this year. With Paul Tracy.

This explains alot about how some of you look at this as a victory!! That is why some of you treat the past as if it never existed!! Well, this series has a long ways to go to get even close to the premiere series that once existed in the USA......

All you have to do is look to the Champ cars of yesteryear. Or, just look to the greatest race car drivers in US history. Most of them drove Champcars!!


Will CART/Champcar and what it represented ever be embraced by Indycar? Maybe a little (hopefully more). But when you're forced to look back at history and what got us here. It's undeniable



Twisting the knife never kills the spirit....

[the bro]

If he had a case he would have sued. What was he afraid of? Taking TG's money? Hurting his feelings? Scoring one for CC? No. PT didn't sue in civil court because he knew he would lose his case.
.

I may be wrong, but I have never heard of anyone suing to overturn race results.

[MDS]

Fact. Paul Tracy did not win the Indy 500. There was much more too it than the one shot where the light blinked at the split second it did. If he had a case he would have sued. What was he afraid of? Taking TG's money? Hurting his feelings? Scoring one for CC? No. PT didn't sue in civil court because he knew he would lose his case.


He didn't sue, because part of the paperwork you sign in order to race prohibits lawsuits to overturn race results.

[garyshell]

Fact. Paul Tracy did not win the Indy 500. There was much more too it than the one shot where the light blinked at the split second it did. If he had a case he would have sued. What was he afraid of? Taking TG's money? Hurting his feelings? Scoring one for CC? No. PT didn't sue in civil court because he knew he would lose his case.




STOP!!!!!!!! This is NOT about the IRL vs CART, despite your best efforts to make it so. This is about Paul Tracy and his being robbed of a win at the Indy 500. Stop trying to turn it into YOUR battle between the two series. Are we not able to talk about the past without YOU butting in and insisting that WE are trying to dig up the old split. Give it a rest already. Some of us have gotten past that. We know the war is over. Do you? Why must you insist that anytime we talk about anything that happened during the split that we are bitter or can't get over it?

BTW there is a very good reason why Paul and the team didn't sue, by contract they were prevented from doing so.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Seems to be a double standard here. If a CC fan brings up the past it's because "We can't forget history". "PT was robbed because of politics, TG could never let a CC driver win the 500!".

If I bring it up it's "You have to let the past go! The split is over".

Hey man. I'll let it go if you do.



STOP!!!!!!!! This is NOT about the IRL vs CART, despite your best efforts to make it so. This is about Paul Tracy and his being robbed of a win at the Indy 500. Stop trying to turn it into YOUR battle between the two series. Are we not able to talk about the past without YOU butting in and insisting that WE are trying to dig up the old split. Give it a rest already. Some of us have gotten past that. We know the war is over. Do you? Why must you insist that anytime we talk about anything that happened during the split that we are bitter or can't get over it?

BTW there is a very good reason why Paul and the team didn't sue, by contract they were prevented from doing so.

Gary

[DBell]

Seems to be a double standard here. If a CC fan brings up the past it's because "We can't forget history". "PT was robbed because of politics, TG could never let a CC driver win the 500!".

If I bring it up it's "You have to let the past go! The split is over".

Hey man. I'll let it go if you do.

Whatever. But you conveniently skipped over the point others made that PT was contractually prevented from suing to overturn the race result. And that was the crux of your earlier post, that PT didn't sue because he knew he didn't win the race.

[jimispeed]

I am a die hard fan of Champcar/CART, and it's history. DUH....

This incident between PT, and the IRL has nothing to do with Indycar for me! If it had been Danica in that car, in the same situation, I would say that she deserved the win!

It was a win that was unjustifiably taken away! That's all!!

But, if your gonna take a shot, sometimes I can't sit back, because I have deep feelings about what this series could/should be, if they, (The two parties involved) had spent more time putting it all together, and crossing the t's and dotting the i's......

[TURN3]

Fact. Paul Tracy did not win the Indy 500. There was much more too it than the one shot where the light blinked at the split second it did. If he had a case he would have sued. What was he afraid of? Taking TG's money? Hurting his feelings? Scoring one for CC? No. PT didn't sue in civil court because he knew he would lose his case.

If you want to quote facts that's fine, but you should at least quote all of them and not just the one's that suit your point. The video here is all that is left for the public to see showing undeniable evidence as to who was in front at the time the yellow light came on. IMS has prevented ABC/ESPN from releasing or showing any/all footage of the pass. Why do you suppose that is? Every driver within sight seems to know exactly who was ahead when the yellow lights on track and in car came on except 1 (and he's going to jail for, uh lying/cheating). Every party involved with the protest claims the evidence we aren't privy to is overwhelming. The incident drove Barry Green out of the sport and provoked a complete overhaul of the timing systems and rules in about every racing series.

Yeah, there was a lot more going on than in that video. A rightful Indy Champ was dethroned for profit and greed. I wonder if Tony had it to do over, now with Helio's new found method of popularity, did he make the right choice. I'd go so far as to say that choice probably continued the split for a few more years than necessary. At that point, about every team was coming back to Indy and in my opinion it was one of many bad choices made by both sides that could've saved OWR for all of us. Tony chose greed over righteousness.

So now, exactly what were ALL OF THE OTHER THINGS GOING ON? Show some evidence like we have. Give us videos, quotes, anything...anything at all. If you can't, bite your tounge and quite talking out your $#*.

[downtowndeco]

Give us videos, quotes, anything...anything at all. If you can't, bite your tounge and quite talking out your $#*.

Who's face is on the trophy?

Who's name is in the record books?

I rest my case.

Now, if you want to go back over the last 100 years with "what could have should have might have happened...be my guest. But the fact remains PT has not won the Indy 500 (yet). : )

[downtowndeco]

"In order to put these issues in the proper context, it is important to keep in mind the purpose of the yellow caution system. The yellow caution system is designed for the safety of the drivers. That seems to have been lost in all of this. The system is designed to protect the drivers by identifying, as soon as possible, an unsafe track condition, and then notifying, as soon as possible, the teams and drivers of the unsafe track condition so that the drivers will cease racing as soon as they are notified of the unsafe track condition.



Consequently, the IRL has implemented multiple systems to minimize the time needed to identify an unsafe condition, and to then notify the drivers, taking into account the need for back up notification systems in the event of any system failure or delay. As a result, the IRL has essentially four methods of communicating a yellow caution period: (i) radio instructions (teams are required to monitor and follow instructions from Race Control); (ii) track yellow lights; (iii) mandatory dashboard yellow lights; and (iv) yellow flags, including the pit-in red flag with the yellow cross (which is displayed upon the commencement of a yellow caution period and signifies that the pits are closed). While these systems typically are initiated within a fraction of a second of each other, they are not synchronized because they can'tbe. Even if you could synchronize them, that would delay the notification and defeat the safety objective. The IRL Officials have repeatedly instructed participants that they are to react to the first notification they receive of a yellow caution period, and that is universally understood among IRL competitors. As a reminder, the IRL Officials instruct the drivers and crew chiefs in mandatory drivers meetings to obey all yellow caution period notices, specifically mentioning the radio call from Race Control, the dashboard yellow lights, the track yellow lights, and the yellow flags, including the red flag with the yellow cross."

[garyshell]

Seems to be a double standard here. If a CC fan brings up the past it's because "We can't forget history". "PT was robbed because of politics, TG could never let a CC driver win the 500!".

If I bring it up it's "You have to let the past go! The split is over".

Hey man. I'll let it go if you do.


You only hear what you want to hear. I didn't say anything about fogetting the past. I said don't assume that every disccusion about the past is motivated by the split. Some of us have gotten over the split but can still discuss the past. When I first brought this up, I didn't say a single word about the motivations behind Tracy being robbed of that win. But you immediately made it about the split. Others chimed in after that, but YOU, once again, were the one who made the conversation into one about the split.

Gary

[chuck34]

All you have to do is look to the Champ cars of yesteryear. Or, just look to the greatest race car drivers in US history. Most of them drove Champcars!!


Will CART/Champcar and what it represented ever be embraced by Indycar? Maybe a little (hopefully more). But when you're forced to look back at history and what got us here. It's undeniable



Twisting the knife never kills the spirit....

Mario, AJ, The Unsers, Mears, Johncock, Ruby, Sachs, Gurney, Jones, Shaw, etc., etc. They all drove INDYCARS!

Will Indycar and what it represented ever be embraced by Champcar?

Twisting the knife never kills the spirit, indeed!

[chuck34]

Sorry for my above post. I just couldn't let it go. I know I should and I try. But who really cares about what came from which side of the sport? It's one now, why can't we be happy about that? It seems that some will not ever be happy until TG is gone and that is the ONE thing that this whole split proved, You must have the Indy 500 to make a go of open wheel racing in this country, and for good or bad, that includes TG. Now lets all move forward and enjoy the racing ....

... with or without PT

[SarahFan]

PT stirs up so much emotion.. good and bad..

its unbelievable some 'fans' question whether he is good for AOWR

[jimispeed]

Mario, AJ, The Unsers, Mears, Johncock, Ruby, Sachs, Gurney, Jones, Shaw, etc., etc. They all drove INDYCARS!

Will Indycar and what it represented ever be embraced by Champcar?

Twisting the knife never kills the spirit, indeed!


Guess what.........wait for it..........All Of Those Cars Where Champcars!!!


They where "Punned" Indycars because of the Indy 500!! The IRL didn't represent true Indycars!! Someone Split the whole thing up, and started a different "All Oval Open Wheel Race Car" for the United States, thus creating turmoil in American open wheel for many years!!

Just look for the "Signature Hoop" above the drivers head.

That's right..............It's a Champcar.

And because of what has happened, and how some of us percieve it, there may never be the correct recognition of a now defunct series!!

Hope I'm not warned for saying this. KK and TG did it all wrong, and for that Champcar and Indycar will probably never be recognised equally within the same breath. And we will probably never see the "Vanderbilt Cup" again!!

Almost as sad as the split from years ago......

If this would have been put together, and gone down correctly, their would be no knife twisting!!

:( :down:

[jimispeed]

But, I am hopeful...

[chuck34]

Guess what.........wait for it..........All Of Those Cars Where Champcars!!!

They may have been Champcars to you and me. But to the general public they were IndyCars. Isn't that what matters?

[chuck34]

IRL didn't represent true Indycars!!

I'll give you a second to think about that one before I comment

[chuck34]

And we will probably never see the "Vanderbilt Cup" again!!

Honestly, Who has ever heard of a "Vanderbilt Cup"? I would guess that more people have heard of a Borg Warner Trophy, but not by much.

[chuck34]

If this would have been put together, and gone down correctly, their would be no knife twisting!!

:( :down:

Had the ChampCar boys just given TG a vote this would have "gone down correctly" and "there woul have been no knife to twist".

But we are waaaaaaay off topic now.

[chuck34]

Where Champcars!!!




Come to think of it ..... Who defined what a "Champcar" was??????????

[jimispeed]

This is all very sad............

[Alexamateo]

PT is just one of many drivers cheated out of there win at Indy
Ralph Mulford -1911
Al Unser Sr. - 1972
Mario Andretti - 1981
Paul Tracy - 2002

If you notice the last three driver were cheated by Penske the Pilfer.

Phoenix, I know the other 3 stories, but I am not familiar with 1972. What are you referring to?

[the bro]

What about 1993? Emo and Luyendyk passed a backmarker under yellow, near the end of the race, and were not penalized. I believe it was Stephan Gregoire that they passed. Gregoire was a lapped car, and after the pit stops was behind the safety car. The safety car driver tried to wave him by, but he didn't understand the procedure. Emo didn't want the lapped car in front of him on the restart so he passed him and so did luyendyk, but Boesel who was 3rd did not.

Now technically Gregoire was in the wrong, but passing under yellow is not allowed and this put Gregoire another lap down. Dick Simon (Boesel's) team owner tried to protest, but it was not allowed. Another example of some bizarre rule interpretations at Indy.

[Phoenixent]

Phoenix, I know the other 3 stories, but I am not familiar with 1972. What are you referring to?

In 1972 Parnelli tried to contest Mark Donohue's win stating that Donohue was behind several laps, They contended that scoring made a mistake between him and his teammate Gary Bettenhausen who was leading when his car broke. Unser was behind Bettenhausen when Gary "B" pulled off track. That would put Unser in the lead but then scoring listed Donohue. After the race Parnelli contested and it came down to the back of the Tire companies. Goodyear was ready with their attorneys to fight it in court and Firestone was not. So Penske get his first win at Indy and Unser would have to wait 6 years for his next.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

This whole thread makes me chuckle. I would dare say Tracy has moved on and so should everyone else who is all hot and bothered by 2002. Yeah yeah he may have won it or not but in the vast great scheme whole of life of all things open wheel racing, how significant is that ???????

Paul Tracy is NOT open wheel racing. Whatever happens to Paul Tracy does not affect for good or ill what else happens in the sport. The sport made Paul Tracy, Paul Tracy did not make the sport.

MOVE ON . . . NOTHING TO SEE HERE MOVE ON !!!

[TURN3]

This whole thread makes me chuckle. I would dare say Tracy has moved on and so should everyone else who is all hot and bothered by 2002. Yeah yeah he may have won it or not but in the vast great scheme whole of life of all things open wheel racing, how significant is that ???????

Paul Tracy is NOT open wheel racing. Whatever happens to Paul Tracy does not affect for good or ill what else happens in the sport. The sport made Paul Tracy, Paul Tracy did not make the sport.

MOVE ON . . . NOTHING TO SEE HERE MOVE ON !!!

You are absolutely correct that PT has moved on, at least that is what he has said publicly. Although when asked in interviews what he most remembers about his career, he'll say winning Indy. But I disagree with your perspective that this topic has to do with shaping OW landscape positively or negatively. That isn't the point at all.

The point is what it does for the individual's career, and in that it is extremely important. An Indy winner is immortalized and like a few others that were probably ripped off over time, so has been PT. Having had that gem taken from an otherwise HOF career, it is pretty significant. So for those who understand the history and what it means, there is plenty to see here but it is ok if you move on.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

You are absolutely correct that PT has moved on, at least that is what he has said publicly. Although when asked in interviews what he most remembers about his career, he'll say winning Indy. But I disagree with your perspective that this topic has to do with shaping OW landscape positively or negatively. That isn't the point at all.

The point is what it does for the individual's career, and in that it is extremely important. An Indy winner is immortalized and like a few others that were probably ripped off over time, so has been PT. Having had that gem taken from an otherwise HOF career, it is pretty significant. So for those who understand the history and what it means, there is plenty to see here but it is ok if you move on.


It all has to do with relevence. In the vast scheme of things open wheel racing. This topic is no longer relevent.

If Gore hadn't lost in 2002 blah blah blah blah blah.... irrelevent !!!! What's done is done . It's called beating a dead horse and you are very good at it.

BAD DEAD HORSE BAD !!!!

[gofastandwynn]

Guarenteed you won't find it. The IRL banned that film from youtube, google video etc... They made it their personal mission to keep that film out of the publics eyes, which convinced even more people that they knew PT had won the race, they just didnt want a CART driver/team to have another I500 championship.

Where did you pull that statement out of? Their personal mission? The video has been up for close to a year. I call BS on you.

[gofastandwynn]

Thank you MDS!! But there where even more telling pics/video than just that! Although that one is a good one!

Can you please post any of these photos or videos? I kept on hearing all of the (at that time) CC contingent saying they had photos that clearly showed PT ahead with the light off, but then always failed to post them.

[TURN3]

It all has to do with relevence. In the vast scheme of things open wheel racing. This topic is no longer relevent.

If Gore hadn't lost in 2002 blah blah blah blah blah.... irrelevent !!!! What's done is done . It's called beating a dead horse and you are very good at it.

BAD DEAD HORSE BAD !!!!

Actually, you're beating the same dead horse by continuing to argue your baseless point. If it bothers you to see that dead horse beaten then maybe you should take you're own advice and move on.

It has turned into fact vs relevance with you and those are 2 different things. Are they going to overturn the decision at this point? Of course not, so in terms of talking about something that won't happen, then yeah, you're right it is irrelevant. In terms of what is right and wrong, it is very relevant.

As I've said in previous posts, there is no argument with regard to this subject. The facts are PT was ahead when the light came on and therefore by rule (at that time) was the race winner. Also fact, Helio was awarded the victory. Not realy sure on how the black helicopter theory comes into play here, I think that might be something for another thread or forum. Facts are facts and in this case they are irrefutable so stop arguing something you can't change. Can you change Gore vs Bush? No! Difference, they re-counted and made sure they got the close call right. They didn't not follow any type of democracy at '02 Indy. So if you're going to make comparisons, use one's that make your point not contradict it.

Maybe things get taken out of context through written translation. Seems to me that a few people put the blinders on when it is convenient. Somebody asks for a video or some type of proof...it is provided with a YouTube. Ask the reciprocate, ok show me proof he wasn't ahead....uhhhhh....well is that all you have to show me. Wait a second, I show you proof, ask for yours and you come back with bascially, well I don't have any but you've only got 1 video. C'mon that's just stupid.

PT won, Helio got the trophy, it'll be that way forever, end of discussion really.

[gofastandwynn]

.

As I've said in previous posts, there is no argument with regard to this subject. The facts are PT was ahead when the light came on and therefore by rule (at that time) was the race winner. Also fact, Helio was awarded the victory.


Is that the rule? Was the the first yellow light that came on? When is a yellow a yellow? The lights at the time were controlled by workers in the corners, so it is not the definitive nor the only signal.

From the IRL on the subject:


Drivers and teams are instructed to obey radio commands of Race Control and to cease racing as soon as they receive notice of a yellow caution, whether through the radio instructions from Race Control, the dashboard yellow lights, the yellow track lights, the yellow flags, or the red flag with the yellow cross positioned at pit entrance which signifies a pit closure in the event of a caution period. It is clear that several of these signals were sent before the car 26 passed the car No. 3. The data presented shows that Helio Castroneves was leading Paul Tracy at the time Race Control called for the yellow by radio at the time that the red flag with the yellow cross was displayed, at the time that the yellow dashboard light system was activated.

http://www.indycar.com/news/index.php?story_id=131

The official appeal doucment:
http://www.geocities.com/johnsonindy500/indy500/appealdecision.pdf

[TURN3]

Is that the rule? Was the the first yellow light that came on? When is a yellow a yellow? The lights at the time were controlled by workers in the corners, so it is not the definitive nor the only signal.

From the IRL on the subject:


The official appeal doucment:
http://www.geocities.com/johnsonindy500/indy500/appealdecision.pdf

Great post. I didn't quote the rule like you did but that is exactly what I was implying. I believe since all this went down there have been clarifications as a direct result of this incident. I know the entire scoring system was redone with loops at stations and they now go back to the previous station.

What I'd like to make clear though isn't the rule, or what the "official" explanation was, rather that the only PUBLIC information we have shows that at the time that light went on, PT was in fact ahead. Now we can't argue or speculate as to all the other evidence that we don't have obviously, but why wouldn't IMS show this proof to quash the argument?

Every driver within sight (i.e. Franchitti, Hornish, etc.) claimed the dash light, track light, and radio calls came AFTER the pass. So all we the public has are statements to the contrary of the "official" explanation and a video showing 1 light coming on after the pass. So with the available evidence, it's pretty clear what went on. If there is something we don't know, then why is it a secret?

[coogmaster]

I just don't understand how this thing is still being argued. One side says Tracy was NOT ahead of Helio, and another side says that he WAS ahead of Helio. It's a futile thing.

When I watched this race, I remember ABC showing a split screen of the wreck between Buddy Lazier and Laurent Redon, and of the battle for the lead between Tracy and Helio, and the two tapes were synched up perfectly. It was very clear that Helio was still ahead when the two hit the fence. Regardless of how quickly the yellow lights came on or when the drivers were notified, the wreck happened BEFORE the pass was made. To me, that trumps any lights or cockpit notifiers that are supposed to come on as the crash happens, even if they were a bit late.

In fact, I even remember them showing the Turn 3 yellow lights being on before the pass happened anyway. This is why I don't understand why this argument still exists. It baffles me.

The bottom line is, no matter how ANYONE tries to spin this thing, Lazier and Redon wrecked BEFORE the pass was made. The videotapes don't lie. Even though Tracy crossed the line first, he didn't win the race.

And I believe this was mentioned earlier, but shouldn't we focus on Tracy's chances now that he will be part of the race again this year instead of debating some futile argument that was resolved 7 years ago?

[NickFalzone]

I agree coogmaster. I think if Tracy was awarded the win, it could also have been portrayed as fair based on everything mentioned above. However, Tracy was not "robbed" of the win either, as the pass happened after the wreck. KV had a decent oval package last season, so PT has a shot. One thing is for sure, having him in this years 500 certainly makes it a better race.

[TURN3]

I agree coogmaster. I think if Tracy was awarded the win, it could also have been portrayed as fair based on everything mentioned above. However, Tracy was not "robbed" of the win either, as the pass happened after the wreck. KV had a decent oval package last season, so PT has a shot. One thing is for sure, having him in this years 500 certainly makes it a better race.

For the record, I didn't actually start this thread and I never said he was "robbed" either. I strongly disagree with the decision that was made but this thread was split after getting carried away elsewhere. Also, the crash did in fact happen long before the pass, that has never been an issue of protest. With the new rules and scoring systems these days, it will hopefully never be an issue again.

Unfortunately for PT, I just don't think KVRT has enough aero developement to be better than top 10 qualifying, top 6-8 in race at best. They were the best of the transition teams on aero tracks last year though. Surely had something to do with the fact they had Ganassi hand me down cars I would think.

[garyshell]

The reason this is STILL being argued after all these years lies at the feet of the IRL officials. They accepted Team Greens protest and then latter rescinded it saying there was no basis for a protest. If they had allowed the protest and had the evidence brought in and weighed carefully, this whole thing would have faded into the record books. But their ham fisted, no STUPID, handling of the protest and subsequent "technicality" dismissal (as if they didn't know such a "technicality" existed when they accepted the protest in the first place) is what has made this into the quagmire it is today.

Gary

[SarahFan]

The reason this is STILL being argued after all these years lies at the feet of the IRL officials. They accepted Team Greens protest and then latter rescinded it saying there was no basis for a protest. If they had allowed the protest and had the evidence brought in and weighed carefully, this whole thing would have faded into the record books. But their ham fisted, no STUPID, handling of the protest and subsequent "technicality" dismissal (as if they didn't know such a "technicality" existed when they accepted the protest in the first place) is what has made this into the quagmire it is today.

Gary


yep.... and ultimatley TG/irl's handling of it drew a line in the sand amongst the IRl and CC faithful becuase it reeked of partisanship...


the more i think about PT being in this years 500 the more i think that Vs. and the IRL should play up the controversy all month long....

[garyshell]

yep.... and ultimatley TG/irl's handling of it drew a line in the sand amongst the IRl and CC faithful becuase it reeked of partisanship...


the more i think about PT being in this years 500 the more i think that Vs. and the IRL should play up the controversy all month long....


"Revenge of the Thrill from West Hill" (Trademark... 2009 Gary Shell)

Gary

[downtowndeco]

That's your opinion on it & you're welcome to it. But I feel many here would still be complaining about it anyway if the IRL had just dismissed the protest out of hand right from the very beginning. Imagine the outcry if the IRL had turned Paul tracy's lawyers away at the door that day.

IMO they were trying to be fair & take a very close look at all of the issues before they closed the book on the case. Helio's side is saying one thing. Tracy's side another. The IRL was trying to take a deep breath, and double, no, triple check on the rules and evidence. Who can blame them for that?

Paul lost that day. Call it a technicality if you like. It was, at the end of the day, still the rule. It wouldn't be the first, nor last race that was won or lost on a technicality. And IMO, to keep flogging it after all these years is in bad form.


The reason this is STILL being argued after all these years lies at the feet of the IRL officials. They accepted Team Greens protest and then latter rescinded it saying there was no basis for a protest. If they had allowed the protest and had the evidence brought in and weighed carefully, this whole thing would have faded into the record books. But their ham fisted, no STUPID, handling of the protest and subsequent "technicality" dismissal (as if they didn't know such a "technicality" existed when they accepted the protest in the first place) is what has made this into the quagmire it is today.

Gary

[coogmaster]

That's your opinion on it & you're welcome to it. But I feel many here would still be complaining about it anyway if the IRL had just dismissed the protest out of hand right from the very beginning. Imagine the outcry if the IRL had turned Paul tracy's lawyers away at the door that day.

IMO they were trying to be fair & take a very close look at all of the issues before they closed the book on the case. Helio's side is saying one thing. Tracy's side another. The IRL was trying to take a deep breath, and double, no, triple check on the rules and evidence. Who can blame them for that?

Paul lost that day. Call it a technicality if you like. It was, at the end of the day, still the rule. It wouldn't be the first, nor last race that was won or lost on a technicality. And IMO, to keep flogging it after all these years is in bad form.

Good post. Sums it all up pretty well.

What I'm excited about is that we got Tracy, Castroneves, Kanaan, and Franchitti as the four most experienced drivers that are gonna be in this field come may.