Bernie warns of possible McLaren ban

[Demonhill]

I read here Ecclestone warns of ban for McLaren..

http://f1pits.spaces.live.com/feed.rss

[Daniel]

Haw haw. Who will wonderboy drive for now? He wouldn't get to win that McLaren F1 LM either. Oh well life goes on. I'd love to see this after what they've put the sport through in the last few years

[markabilly]

Put sport through what??

Are you kidding, the last two years have great.
generated plenty of fan interst and excitement.
Only problem is that Bernie does not have the right to televise and charge the usual rip off fees....

but it all would make an excellent fox or whoever reality show....something like "Cheating with the Stars"
or "will I or will I not" (each show could center around topics such as: will I cheat or what I will quit--or will I lie may way through it--will I get banned--who will get caught getting a whipping next----and real survivor style, who will get fired next...........and who will draw the "scapegoat straw"

And the climax will be who blew the whistle on MaX

besides as I said before, don't forget the lawyers, they need your money to survive....

[Daniel]

true markabilly. But i'm one of the few people who believes that cheaters shouldn't get off lightly

[Bradley]

I expect that McLiaren will escape with a solution that permits wonderboy to continue. The poor guy, he's just the victim. "They" told him to lie.

As "they" probably also told him to lie when he was "defending the team" in the spy-scandal.

Throw McLaren out of the championship for a few races ! Hopefully that will help them to come down to earth. And then hope that Brawn sticks to his winning team.

[Demonhill]

He's not the first driver to lie, even if he was told to do so. Do you think Shumacher ever lied ? If he did he never owned up to it. I hope folks and the media in particular can focus on the great on track action. Lewis to Brawn for 2010 ??? :)

[Easy Drifter]

1. Bernie ain't the FIA although you do wonder sometimes.
2. No McLaren and no LH. Watch interest and TV ratings drop like a stone.
3. All of a sudden Mercedes find a major problem with their engines and Force India and Brawn no longer have an engine supplier.
4. Several tracks have new problems and no longer want races.
5. Bernie no longer has a viable series. :eek:

[mstillhere]

Although the topic is about McLaren getting banned I already see people dragging MS in the conversation. Is it too hard for you MS haters to leave MS alone?

Look it's very simple: YOUR HERO LIED. And actually he did worse: HE COULD NOT CARE LESS HAVING JARNO BEING THE LIAR. And there is more: if Lewin and McLAren would have not been caught lying and cheating AGAIN, do you think that YOUR HERO would later on actually come out with the truth? Let me help you with the answer: NO!! McLaren and Lewis would have left Jarno and Toyota look like THEY were the cheaters. Hey, that might be still ok with you, not for me though. I don't live by those rules.

Please leave MS out of this and stick - if it's not too hard for you guys - to the topic. And if you don't like the topic well......just don't write anything.

[Valve Bounce]

Let's get one thing straight: this has nothing to do with SchM people!! You want to talk about SchM, start another thread.

[mstillhere]

1. Bernie ain't the FIA although you do wonder sometimes.
2. No McLaren and no LH. Watch interest and TV ratings drop like a stone.
3. All of a sudden Mercedes find a major problem with their engines and Force India and Brawn no longer have an engine supplier.
4. Several tracks have new problems and no longer want races.
5. Bernie no longer has a viable series. :eek:

For some reason this sounds like some kind of blackmail. Are you saying that since F 1 is a sport it should not to be held up to normal, civil ethical issues? Money rules no matter what?

I can honestly tell you I can definetly live without F1 in my life but I would not be able to live and watch a sport where lying and cheating are condoned. And where would you draw the line? Are you implying that any big team could cheat and lie at will because the sport would not survive without them or it only applies to McLaren?

[Valve Bounce]

For some reason this sounds like some kind of blackmail. Are you saying that since F 1 is a sport it should not to be held up to normal, civil ethical issues? Money rules no matter what?

I can honestly tell you I can definetly live without F1 in my life but I would not be able to live and watch a sport where lying and cheating are condoned. And where would you draw the line? Are you implying that any big team could cheat and lie at will because the sport would not survive without them or it only applies to McLaren?

I think McLaren and Lewis Hamilton have already been punished. For the punishment to continue with a ban, I think that would be over the top. Not that I condone in any way what they did. Time to move on.

[markabilly]

Although the topic is about McLaren getting banned I already see people dragging MS in the conversation. Is it too hard for you MS haters to leave MS alone?

Look it's very simple: YOUR HERO LIED. And actually he did worse: HE COULD NOT CARE LESS HAVING JARNO BEING THE LIAR. And there is more: if Lewin and McLAren would have not been caught lying and cheating AGAIN, do you think that YOUR HERO would later on actually come out with the truth? Let me help you with the answer: NO!! McLaren and Lewis would have left Jarno and Toyota look like THEY were the cheaters. Hey, that might be still ok with you, not for me though. I don't live by those rules.

Please leave MS out of this and stick - if it's not too hard for you guys - to the topic. And if you don't like the topic well......just don't write anything.


No he just forgot his little interview just as he jumped out of the car...now he is trying to make Mac look like the cheaters because he claims he was told by the team to lie....first Ryan under the bus and then the team....

FACE it, nobody but Lewis could know whether he intentionally let Trulli by....If he had not told that reporter that is what he did, we would have never known...and then Lewis gives a press conference after confirming twice he did not intentionally let Trulli pass, but at the second, he is confronted with his little impromptu interview, so later he gets with Poppa, calls max and decides to claim he did not deliberately lie, he just did what the team told him and now, having been victimized by the team, he will quit....

So your baby boy has thrown Ryan and now the whole team under the bus.....(and talk about gratitude, he has now brought Ron Dennis and the whole team into question again, this is the man---ron dennis-- that made it all possible for him to be where he is as distinguished from being a nobody, and this, once again, is how he repays his team---WHAT A TEAM WRECKER!!)

Actions of not only a liar, but a coward.

While you can argue all you want as to whether MS may or may not have lied, nowhere will you find evidence where he attempts to excuse any possible lies by "confessing" and "apologizing" where he took no individual responsibility but claimed it was all their fault because the team told him to lie :rolleyes:

At a minnimum whatever punishment for the team should be matched by same punishment for Lewsi.

Indeed a ban on Hamilton BUT NOT the team, would seem to be very appropriate for cowards who stab their team in the back as well as stabbing other racers in the back...

[Tazio]

:rolleyes: I wonder if Her Majesty is thinking the MBE may have been a little premature :rolleyes:

[Easy Drifter]

I was in no way condoning what went on.
F1 is not a sport in the true sense of the word. It is big business.
A penalty has been imposed. Maybe more should be but if McLaren are removed from the series a lot of people will stop watching.
I have been a motor racing nut for over 55 years and I am quickly losing interest in F1 with all the nonsense over the last few years.
And I even worked for a F1 team once upon a time!

[markabilly]

I was in no way condoning what went on.
F1 is not a sport in the true sense of the word. It is big business.
A penalty has been imposed. Maybe more should be but if McLaren are removed from the series a lot of people will stop watching.
I have been a motor racing nut for over 55 years and I am quickly losing interest in F1 with all the nonsense over the last few years.
And I even worked for a F1 team once upon a time!

you know I wern't picking on you, cause I never once mentioned your sister or other well known proclivities...but you do have a point about mac, but all those people who will stop, live in Britainy and they are so unimportant to bernie that he wants to not hold anymore grand prixs there, so who cares??

besides once team brawn delivers a WDC in Button (or Rossi??) the Brits will not remember what his name....
Anyway if you read closely I do feel for team mac, being stabbed in the back by the young little boy they brought in from the cold and raised to be a WDC, an MBE and lieing coward

(somewhere I think Freddie A. the alleged rat is laughing so hard he cannot hold his food down)),

:vader:

[Valve Bounce]

Anyway if you read closely I do feel for team maclair, being stabbed in the back by the young little boy they brought in from the cold and raised to be a WDC, an MBE and lieing coward
:vader:

Ah!! M. Poirot!! You are once again the solver of the most devious mystery. Bravo!!

[markabilly]

Ah!! M. Poirot!! You are once again the solver of the most devious mystery. Bravo!!
What? calling me nasty french names??? where's pino....


Valve, I am tired of reading stupid and pointless comments by you, stop it right now !
Yeah!!

:rolleyes: I wonder if Her Majesty is thinking the MBE may have been a little premature :rolleyes:

Taz, the English monarchy has a long and illustrious history of rewarding thieves, vagabonds, robber-barons and genocidal pyschopaths with 'honours'.

Poor Ron must be feeling really left out.

[Hondo]

Ban McLaren for the rest of 2009. Pull Hamilton's super license for the rest of 2009. If Mercedes wants to pull out, let them. If the BBC suffers, they can take it up with Bernie. If major advertisers decide F1 is not where they want to market their product, let them pull out. Now that will cut spending.

A good ban ought to get the FOTA control ball rolling again.

[tintop]

Ban McLaren for the rest of 2009. Pull Hamilton's super license for the rest of 2009. If Mercedes wants to pull out, let them. If the BBC suffers, they can take it up with Bernie. If major advertisers decide F1 is not where they want to market their product, let them pull out. Now that will cut spending.

A good ban ought to get the FOTA control ball rolling again.

Mercedes will do what they want, no absurdly arbitrary sporting body on the downside of a bubble is going to tell them or any of the other real manufacturers what to do ultimately. Go FOTA

[jjanicke]

Although the topic is about McLaren getting banned I already see people dragging MS in the conversation. Is it too hard for you MS haters to leave MS alone?

Look it's very simple: YOUR HERO LIED. And actually he did worse: HE COULD NOT CARE LESS HAVING JARNO BEING THE LIAR. And there is more: if Lewin and McLAren would have not been caught lying and cheating AGAIN, do you think that YOUR HERO would later on actually come out with the truth? Let me help you with the answer: NO!! McLaren and Lewis would have left Jarno and Toyota look like THEY were the cheaters. Hey, that might be still ok with you, not for me though. I don't live by those rules.

Please leave MS out of this and stick - if it's not too hard for you guys - to the topic. And if you don't like the topic well......just don't write anything.

It's perfectly appropriate to bring MS into this story, just as Honda with their fueltanks. MS was unquestionably a repeat cheater and not nearly as much was made of it by the FIA. The difference however was that MS often acted alone (Hill, Monaco) whereas Mclaren have repeat cheated as a team. It's a tough call, but expulsion from the '09 season seems unreasonably stiff IMO.

[ioan]

It's perfectly appropriate to bring MS into this story, just as Honda with their fueltanks. MS was unquestionably a repeat cheater and not nearly as much was made of it by the FIA. The difference however was that MS often acted alone (Hill, Monaco) whereas Mclaren have repeat cheated as a team. It's a tough call, but expulsion from the '09 season seems unreasonably stiff IMO.

Another MS hater back on his favorite game! :laugh:

[555-04Q2]

It's perfectly appropriate to bring MS into this story, just as Honda with their fueltanks. MS was unquestionably a repeat cheater and not nearly as much was made of it by the FIA. The difference however was that MS often acted alone (Hill, Monaco) whereas Mclaren have repeat cheated as a team. It's a tough call, but expulsion from the '09 season seems unreasonably stiff IMO.

FFS, give it a rest already!

Everyone in F1 cheats, drivers, designers, management etc from blatant on track incidents, to statements made to the design of cars, to tweaking rule interpretation and many more.

Time to move along now...and I hope Mac dont get banned.

[pino]

MS has nothing to do with this, so if you want to talk about him, go to Nostalgia Forum and start a thread there, but keep him off here, thank you !

[Valve Bounce]

I wonder if we can beg the question: [I]'Is it possible to admire Michael Schumacher, but still have an opinion that he cheated during his career?'



As I have stated above, if you hate SchM, wht not start another thread. This thread is to discuss something else.

[ShiftingGears]

I think a two race ban is the maximum punishment they will get.

[ioan]

I agree, although I hope they don't get a ban at all especially if it is delayed and conflicts with the British GP. I don't think the FIA would be that dull in hindsight.

Don't you worry, if they get a 1 or 2 race ban it will be over long before the circus arrives to Silverstone.

The FIA WMSC could also decide that they can't score points in 2 races, but that would merely have an influence on their championship standings given their poor form!
However a 2 race ban would have the same effect plus it would deny them around 3000 kms of running which they won't be able to use to develop their cars.

All points considered I think a 2 race ban would be a fitting punishment

[Rusty Spanner]

Could McLaren be banned for what has happened? Well the rules certainly give the FIA that power. Will they be banned? Unlikely.

Bernie loves to make provocative statements to the media and then grin, stand well back and enjoy all the free publicity. Same old same old.

[Knock-on]

Don't you worry, if they get a 1 or 2 race ban it will be over long before the circus arrives to Silverstone.

The FIA WMSC could also decide that they can't score points in 2 races, but that would merely have an influence on their championship standings given their poor form!
However a 2 race ban would have the same effect plus it would deny them around 3000 kms of running which they won't be able to use to develop their cars.

All points considered I think a 2 race ban would be a fitting punishment

Interesting points.

Personally, I think everyone's learned a lesson already and it isn't necessary to further penalise McLaren unless it becomes obvious that Davey and Lewis weren't working independant. However, if a further ban for 2 days is issued, I will not feel too hard done by because they are f**king idiots and I'm disgusted that they would try such a stunt. I expect more from them and they had better start delivering it.

If they do get a 2 race ban, it will mean they can save 2 engines though ;)

[Valve Bounce]

Interesting points.


If they do get a 2 race ban, it will mean they can save 2 engines though ;)

.............and some petrol too!

Interesting points.

Personally, I think everyone's learned a lesson already and it isn't necessary to further penalise McLaren unless it becomes obvious that Davey and Lewis weren't working independant. However, if a further ban for 2 days is issued, I will not feel too hard done by because they are f**king idiots and I'm disgusted that they would try such a stunt. I expect more from them and they had better start delivering it.
;)

Excellent post.

FIA requests BBC's Whitmarsh tapes

By Jonathan Noble Monday, April 13th 2009, 19:33 GMT

Martin WhitmarshThe FIA has written to the BBC to ask for copies of interviews McLaren team principal Martin Whitmarsh conducted with the broadcaster in the immediate aftermath of the Australian Grand Prix.

As motor racing's governing body continues its investigation into the lying controversy surrounding the McLaren team, the BBC has been asked to supply comments made by Whitmarsh in Melbourne that could throw a fresh light on how much he knew about what happened behind the safety car in the closing stages of the race.

Although Whitmarsh claimed at the Malaysian Grand Prix that he knew nothing about Lewis Hamilton and McLaren's former sporting director Dave Ryan denying to stewards that there had been a radio order to let Jarno Trulli overtake, his comments in the aftermath of the race suggest he shared the line they told stewards that the Toyota driver had forced his way by.

In a live interview with BBC Radio 5 shortly after the Melbourne race, Whitmarsh said: "Under the last safety car, Trulli's Toyota fell off the circuit and was on the grass. Lewis passed him as he could legitimately do so, and thereafter Trulli repassed under the safety car and the early indications from the stewards were that they felt that was incorrect. They are doing the full investigation as we speak and we will shortly learn if it is a third or a fourth place."

In another interview that Whitmarsh is alleged to have conducted with BBC pitlane reporter Ted Kravitz, it is suggested he said: "Trulli then retook the place under the safety car, which ordinarily you wouldn't do. I know that the FIA are looking at it at the moment."

The FIA has been alerted to the presence of these interviews and wants the BBC to supply any evidence that it believes will be helpful to its investigation.

McLaren is to face a hearing of the FIA's World Motor Sport Council later this month to answer disrepute charges that it lied to stewards - and forced Hamilton to supply an 'untrue statement' to support its case"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74455

Ooops....if this is true, then the team deserves to be shut down.

[Knock-on]

Excellent post.

Stop it now, you're scaring me ;)

:D

(BTW, should read 2 meetings and not 2 days in my post.)

[Hondo]

On the surface, I would agree with a 2 race ban. However, when called to the second hearing and presented with evidence and audio tapes clearly demonstrating that their first statements were untruthful, given a chance to amend those statements, and then foolishly sticking to their original story...well, ban McLaren for 2009 and pull Hamilton's super license for 2009. Hamilton is just as guilty as the team in this deal.

[Bobby_Hamlin]

Whatever the punishment it should not result in 2 less cars on the grid for the rest of the year and surely the only people calling for that are the McLaren and/or Hamilton haters.

[tintop]

Whatever the punishment it should not result in 2 less cars on the grid for the rest of the year and surely the only people calling for that are the McLaren and/or Hamilton haters.


I guess that the question is: How much will Mercedes tolerate? I'd assume that Mclaren will try to carry on even if they get docked a few races or are taken out of the constructor championship, but will Mercedes endure another meaningless year in terms of championship points?

[Hondo]

I am not a McLaren or Hamilton hater. What they did was wrong, to do it again when confronted with proof otherwise, is arrogant.

[jjanicke]

I am not a McLaren or Hamilton hater. What they did was wrong, to do it again when confronted with proof otherwise, is arrogant.

When did they do it again after being shown proof?

[Tazio]

When did they do it again after being shown proof?
This what he is referring to:


'On 2 April, 2009, at a second hearing before the stewards of the Australian Grand Prix, (meeting in Malaysia) made no attempt to correct the untrue statement of 29 March but, on the contrary, continued to maintain that the statement was true, despite being allowed to listen to a recording of the team instructing Hamilton to let Trulli past and despite being given more than one opportunity to correct its false statement.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-1168312/McLaren-charged-lies-Australian-Grand-Prix-scandal-surrounding-Hamilton.html

[aryan]

Whatever the punishment it should not result in 2 less cars on the grid for the rest of the year and surely the only people calling for that are the McLaren and/or Hamilton haters.

No. Indeed I was a McLaren/Hamilton fan until this thing.

I watched that BBC interview just after the race. And I remember it perfectly (in fact I have the DivX of the whole GP right here). Whitemarsh clearly said that Truli has overtaken Hamilton during the SC. This is something that the stewards are looking into and we believe we should get 3rd.

Did he mention his radio conversation with Hamilton when the instructed him to let Truli Pass? No.

Was it his decision to try to hide that story? Yes. Maybe even Ron Dennis'. But it is clear to me that they cheated. They lied with the intent to deceive. It is fraud. And it wasn't only Dave Ryan. It was him. Ryan is just a scapegoat. He only followed what Whitemarsh had told him to do.

Did Lewis also lie? Yes he did. Was he instructed to do so? Most probably. But I think we put that defence once and for all to rest after the Nuremberg trials. The "I did X because my boss ordered me to, knowing well that X is illegal" does not cut it in any corporate environment. It even doesn't cut it in the military, where you are expected to be obedient to your superiors. Why should it be enough in F1?

Throw them out of 2009. Both WDC and WCC. They don't deserve to be here.

Poor Heikki.

[ArrowsFA1]

Ooops....if this is true, then the team deserves to be shut down.
I can see how MW saying Trulli repassed/retook the place could be used to that end, but IMHO that simply highlights one of the problems with this. Far too much is being read into anything and everything, and to use interviews given immediately after the race which reflect the fact that Trulli did pass Hamilton illustrates this. To say that a team deserves to be shut down because of it is excessive IMHO.

I still think that fear of penalty, rather than a wish to steal a place from a fellow competitor, motivated the lie in the stewards room. Obviously, that still doesn't make it right, and the stewards were spot on in penalising team and driver as a consequence. However, for the FIA to revisit it all yet again, with a view to further penalty, serves no useful purpose IMHO.

It will be fun to see what happens if a similar on-track incident occurs again anytime soon :crazy:

[SGWilko]

I can see how MW saying Trulli repassed/retook the place could be used to that end, but IMHO that simply highlights one of the problems with this. Far too much is being read into anything and everything, and to use interviews given immediately after the race which reflect the fact that Trulli did pass Hamilton illustrates this. To say that a team deserves to be shut down because of it is excessive IMHO.

I still think that fear of penalty, rather than a wish to steal a place from a fellow competitor, motivated the lie in the stewards room. Obviously, that still doesn't make it right, and the stewards were spot on in penalising team and driver as a consequence. However, for the FIA to revisit it all yet again, with a view to further penalty, serves no useful purpose IMHO.

It will be fun to see what happens if a similar on-track incident occurs again anytime soon :crazy:

Poor guy. I can picture it now. He's so hungry he comments innocently to a colleague while on camera he could 'eat a horse', and Max makes a call to the RSPCA... tsk. :dozey:

[Knock-on]

Poor guy. I can picture it now. He's so hungry he comments innocently to a colleague while on camera he could 'eat a horse', and Max makes a call to the RSPCA... tsk. :dozey:

PML :laugh:

There is a rumour that the diffuser appeal was going to be upheld until McLaren threw their weight behind it :D

I still think that fear of penalty, rather than a wish to steal a place from a fellow competitor, motivated the lie in the stewards room.

Could you explain how? The "fear" of penalty saw Mclaren give the place back, perhaps understandably, so why lie about that if not to gain a place?

Mclaren were not going to be penalised for giving Trulli the position. That notion is utter poppycock.

However, for the FIA to revisit it all yet again, with a view to further penalty, serves no useful purpose IMHO.

Trulli: FIA right to punish McLaren

By Jonathan Noble and Adam Cooper Wednesday, April 15th 2009, 10:25 GMT

Jarno Trulli believes the FIA is right to have come down hard on McLaren over the team and Lewis Hamilton lying to race stewards at the Australian Grand Prix.

Although the Italian says he has no hard feelings against what McLaren did to try and cost him third place in the Australian Grand Prix, he fully supports the way the FIA has taken the matter so seriously.

Not only was Lewis Hamilton disqualified from the Melbourne race, but his McLaren team has been summoned to a hearing of the FIA's World Motor Sport Council to answer disrepute charges about its behaviour.

In an exclusive interview with AUTOSPORT, Trulli said: "My feeling is that the FIA took such a strong decision because they felt that someone was taking a joke of them at the end of the day, and they want to show to everyone that the FIA is just like a judge.

"Go in front of the judge and you have to be honest and tell the truth. You might get away with it once, but it's better not to do it. You take a lot of risk. This is what happened, basically.

"I think it was a very, very unfortunate circumstance for both of us. I personally don't know who had lied and why he had lied. In my opinion, there was no interest there to lie. Really, no interest. But someone has really misjudged the rules.

"Personally I'm not here to blame anyone. The problem is on that particular occasion I looked stupid and I haven't done anything wrong. I'm not the kind of person who thinks about revenge or anything, I get on with everyone. I use a sentence like live and let everybody live."

Trulli also welcomed the attitude of the FIA race stewards, who came to speak to him personally immediately after they had made their decision to reinstate his third place finish in Melbourne.

"It was great that once they announced the decision of giving the position back, afterwards I was doing some interviews with some journalists, and two of the stewards walked straight up the paddock to find me and shake my hand to say you deserve it, because you have been honest - in front of all the press. This was really appreciated by me.

"That's why I say in that particular case I believe that the FIA has shown good common sense and a lot of strength, re-opening a case that was basically closed. They felt and they smelled that something was wrong, they were good enough to do it. This pays a lot of credit to the FIA, after so much trouble in the first race with so many problems."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74478

Jarno explains why "revisiting" the scandal is a good thing rather well.

Trulli had his reputation besmirched, and not once has anyone from Mclaren apologised for that. That alone is a good enough reason to have Whitmarsh publically flogged.

[tintop]

Trulli had his reputation besmirched, and not once has anyone from Mclaren apologised for that. That alone is a good enough reason to have Whitmarsh publically flogged.


:laugh: for being penalized for passing under yellow. Kind of a stretch, no? They will get their deserved flogging though, it's just a question of whether the officials overreach and harm the season.

[tintop]

Could you explain how? The "fear" of penalty saw Mclaren give the place back, perhaps understandably, so why lie about that if not to gain a place?

Mclaren were not going to be penalised for giving Trulli the position. That notion is utter poppycock.

The fear of penalty for not speaking up to clarify a situation that led to Toyota's penalty.

[Knock-on]

Could you explain how? The "fear" of penalty saw Mclaren give the place back, perhaps understandably, so why lie about that if not to gain a place?

Mclaren were not going to be penalised for giving Trulli the position. That notion is utter poppycock.

I agree with both of you.

Arrows is right in that I think there was genuine fear of punishment for taking the place legally and that's why they gave it back. I also think there was hysteria over whether they would still get penalised for giving the place back under a safety car. You wouldn't bet against it, would you ;)

This paranoia (justifiable some would say) lead them to make a terrible decision and try to fudge their way out of it by lying which is a awful choice but not the first time a driver or team has committed such a crime.

It's fair to say that the relationship between Mclaren and the FIA is disasterous to the sport at the moment and although it's no excuse, I believe it contributed to this situation occuring where normally if JT flew off the track, Lewis would not give a place back. They are so scared of giving the FIA excuses to punish them that they are compounding the issue.

:laugh: for being penalized for passing under yellow. Kind of a stretch, no?

Not at all, since Mclaren were happy for him to appear to be a liar.

[tintop]

Not at all, since Mclaren were happy for him to appear to be a liar.


Problem is, he hadn't been called a liar. I know that you are obsessed with lying in this case, but nobody ever accused Trulli of lying.

Problem is, he hadn't been called a liar. I know that you are obsessed with lying in this case, but nobody ever accused Trulli of lying.

And your problem is that in order to be made to appear to be a liar, nobody has to call him a liar.

They just had to lie themselves.

"The problem is on that particular occasion I looked stupid and I haven't done anything wrong" Jarno Trulli, 2009.

[tintop]

And your problem is that in order to be made to appear to be a liar, nobody has to call him a liar.

They just had to lie themselves.

"The problem is on that particular occasion I looked stupid and I haven't done anything wrong" Jarno Trulli, 2009.

You offer the proof yourself - nobody called him a liar like you implied. Big difference between making a mistake and lying.

Big difference between making a mistake and lying.

Did you write Hamiltons apology?

There was no 'mistake'.....there was an attempt to "deliberately mislead".

Which, translated into English from Ronspeak, is lying through your arse!







Not your arse, obviously.

[tintop]

Did you write Hamiltons apology?

There was no 'mistake'.....there was an attempt to "deliberately mislead".

Which, translated into English from Ronspeak, is lying through your arse!

Hamilton clearly lied, perhaps multiple times, but Trulli wasn't ever accused of lying by anyone.

[ArrowsFA1]

...They are so scared of giving the FIA excuses to punish them that they are compounding the issue.
I think that's right, and it is that context which contributed to the lie in front of the stewards. However, it doesn't excuse the lie, and McLaren have rightly been penalised for it already.

Had the stewards used the available team radio recordings as a part of their first investigation they would have had the full picture. Had they then questioned those involved having gathered the available evidence they could have come to a decision which would not have needed to be revisited once, let alone twice.

It's interesting that not only did the stewards not listen to the McLaren team radio before the first hearing, they also did not take heed of evidence Toyota tried to provide. Jarno Trulli says that "probably they were too busy, or it was too late, and nobody paid too much attention".

Add to that the fact that the stewards may never have needed to be involved had the Race Director responded to repeated requests for a rule clarification, then I think it is fair to say there are a number of issues, other than penalising McLaren again, that the FIA should be looking at.

[tintop]

Add to that the fact that the stewards may never have needed to be involved had the Race Director responded to repeated requests for a rule clarification, then I think it is fair to say there are a number of issues, other than penalising McLaren again, that the FIA should be looking at.

Of course, this really would be the proper focus. I can understand their inability to render a quick decision during the Massa/Hamilton pass re-pass incident, but they had plenty of time to clarify the yellow flag situation in OZ. Seems like they were more intent on hanging someone here than solving the problem in the first place. Of course, Mclaren willingly placed their head in the noose.

I think it is fair to say there are a number of issues, other than penalising McLaren again, that the FIA should be looking at.

None of which are as vital as clamping down on deceit towards race stewards and fellow competitors.

The only way to ever make sure that nobody tries "taking a joke of them" (copyright Jarno) again is to stamp out wilfull deceit. Hard. So fecking hard that they'll never do it again.

Unfortunately, removal from the Constructors Championship & a $100million fine hasn't done the trick.

[SGWilko]

Unfortunately, removal from the Constructors Championship & a $100million fine hasn't done the trick.

Oh c*ck, is it 2007 again? My time machine finally worked, wow. ;)

[Bagwan]

The stewards interviewed Jarno , and he said he was allowed by .

If he had not been let by , he would be penalized .

Hamilton and Ryan were asked directly if he was allowed by , and they both responded that he was not .

Had Lewis and Patsy given accurate accounts of what happened , as was assumed , Jarno would have been fairly treated with a 12 place demotion .

Had the FIA stewards listened to the tapes before the interview , they would have been shown as liars right then and there .
The same applies to the SPEED interview .

It seems obvious to me that Ryan had no idea that Lewis had done the SPEED bit , as it would have been foolish to claim otherwise if Lewis had already admitted that he had allowed Jarno through under orders .

They were made to look like fools when the stewards re-opened the issue .
And , all because those 2 representatives of the McLaren team lied , the stewards needed to clean up a mess , not of thier own making .

They shouldn't have to listen to the tapes in such a simple situation .

They investigated a seemingly illegal pass .
The passer said he was allowed by .
The passee denied it .
His engineer corroborated the fact .

To the steward , he must then penalize , because the passee and engineer are the only ones with facts .
The passer has only opinion at that point .
That opinion , it must be noted , is from someone who just screwed up and went off track , causing the initial pass , and also from someone who was being investigated for completing an illegal pass under yellows .

They were unlikely to believe Jarno in that scenario . They would believe , however , that Jarno was trying it on , as his story would be not so much a blatant lie , but more an opinion perhaps stretching the truth a little .

And , the truth was , that Ryan and Hamilton would have known this was a likely outcome , to have Jarno penalized .
That would be penalized , not only in places , but in having Jarno appear to be lying , and not in full understanding of the rules .

And , it's that rules aspect that's something that really gets stuck in my craw , as it was ignorance of the rules which brought them to letting Jarno pass in the first place .

[Knock-on]

None of which are as vital as clamping down on deceit towards race stewards and fellow competitors.


Come on Tamb. You villify Hamilton and defend Schumacher for the same thing. You demand consistency from people but are quite happy with double standards like this.

Is there any wonder there's friction when we can't at least say "OK, that was wrong. I simply cannot and will not defend it."?

Fair is fair, is it not and perhaps it's time to admit Lewis and Davey were bang out of order and move on.

[ioan]

Big difference between making a mistake and lying.

Ronspeak for lying = making a mistake!
It's impressive how well adapted the McLiars fans are! :laugh:

[ioan]

Big difference between making a mistake and lying.

Ronspeak for lying = making a mistake!
It's impressive how well adapted the McLiars fans are, it's like if you were all Ron's product! :laugh:

Come on Tamb. You villify Hamilton and defend Schumacher for the same thing. You demand consistency from people but are quite happy with double standards like this.

Is there any wonder there's friction when we can't at least say "OK, that was wrong. I simply cannot and will not defend it."?

I haven't defended Schumacher either for Monaco 06 or Jerez 97.

I've said that Monaco 06 was not directly comparable to Adelaide 09, despite Mclaren fans claiming it's a carbon-copy.

Not once, though, have I said that Schumacher shouldn't have been punished further.

To that I will add that Senna should have had his 1990 World Championship title stripped from him, and firmly believed at the time that by not doing so the FIA made it clear to everybody that they could try on similar moves without fear of ultimate sanction.

Just because they did feck all before when they should have done something is no defence for "consistency" when previous inactivity has damaged the sport to the extent where lying to officials is seen as something we should just "move on" from.

It is time that the FIA acted like a strong governing body and clamped down.

[tintop]

Ronspeak for lying = making a mistake!
It's impressive how well adapted the McLiars fans are, it's like if you were all Ron's product! :laugh:

What's really funny is your inability to make any coherent responses that don't include allegations of fan bias. Even more humorous is when you misapply that bias to a non-fan, in this case a non-Mclaren fan. Of course one better is not comprehending the context of the post, which had nothing to do with Mclaren lying, rather the implication that Trulli was considered to be lying. Please post more in the future.

[tintop]

I haven't defended Schumacher either for Monaco 06 or Jerez 97.

I've said that Monaco 06 was not directly comparable to Adelaide 09, despite Mclaren fans claiming it's a carbon-copy.

Not once, though, have I said that Schumacher shouldn't have been punished further.

To that I will add that Senna should have had his 1990 World Championship title stripped from him, and firmly believed at the time that by not doing so the FIA made it clear to everybody that they could try on similar moves without fear of ultimate sanction.

Just because they did feck all before when they should have done something is no defence for "consistency" when previous inactivity has damaged the sport to the extent where lying to officials is seen as something we should just "move on" from.

It is time that the FIA acted like a strong governing body and clamped down.


They clamped down fairly well in spy gate, I think that the only way that they can justify incremental championship punishment here is the fact that this is a second offense by the team in a reasonably short period. Is it the same team that hid the the spy gate information? - seems close enough even though Ron is somewhat out of the mix. Do the drivers both get punished too, or just Hamilton?

The difference between those historic offenses and this one seems to be the direct involvement of the teams involved, rather than a driver one off.

[ArrowsFA1]

I think that the only way that they can justify incremental championship punishment here is the fact that this is a second offense by the team in a reasonably short period.
According to Pitpass (http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=37641) McLaren are on two years probation following Spygate, although I don't recall that being a part of the original penalty imposed by the FIA.

The Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/mclaren/5202612/McLaren-sponsors-may-quit-and-force-team-to-pull-out-of-Formula-One.html) are suggesting that McLaren sponsors may quit resulting in the team being forced out of F1 "if they are handed a suspension or a “disproportionately large” penalty" by the WMSC.


A source close to one of McLaren's key sponsors said: "I can say that if a disproportionately large penalty were given to McLaren on April 29 then the sponsor that I am associated with might leave. But the punishment must fit the crime. If there is an irrefutable case of corporate deception then fair enough.
"I think we all know the subtext here; the FIA wanted to oust Ron Dennis. I believe the governing body have allowed this situation to escalate and it is doing no one any good – not McLaren, not the FIA and certainly not the sport. Apart from anything else, it is dissuading other potential sponsors from entering Formula One."
:dozey:

The "source" close to one of Mclaren's key sponsors....it's not Martin Whitmarsh is it?

As for "other potential sponsors" being dissuaded from entering F1....well, as sponsors of Mclaren, then certainly! Who would want to be associated with fraud, lies, deception and cheating?

Oh, and if Mclaren really didn't want to get into hot water with the FIA, then they really should have acted more appropriately and, crucially, made sure that everything was above board.....which it is evident that, even if Ryan was acting alone, nobody was checking was the case.

Just because the team might fold is no reason to go easy with the punishment. Sometimes a hard lesson is the only lesson. Mclaren's problem is that they haven't learnt from previous lessons, so it's all self-imposed tragedy.

[veeten]

sort of takes the edge off that 'Karma-led' a$$-kicking that Ferrari is suffering so far this season, eh tamb?... ;) :p :

[tintop]

According to Pitpass (http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=37641) McLaren are on two years probation following Spygate, although I don't recall that being a part of the original penalty imposed by the FIA.

The Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/mclaren/5202612/McLaren-sponsors-may-quit-and-force-team-to-pull-out-of-Formula-One.html) are suggesting that McLaren sponsors may quit resulting in the team being forced out of F1 "if they are handed a suspension or a “disproportionately large” penalty" by the WMSC.

:dozey:

I thought I heard of double secret probation, but also couldn't remember it being an explicit feature of the original punishment.

The key words from the sponsor are irrefutable evidence of team malfeasance, and the FIA's desire to let the situation to escallate to a level of expulsion. They clearly (with Mclaren's help, I might add) let this thing get out of control. Had they asked and re-asked former drivers if they intentionally did so and so during actionable incidents, then you'd have similar escalations as this. If they go beyond the Mclaren blood that has already been spilled, then their over-reach will have commercial consequences. The difference here is the taped evidence, not the presence of lies.

Sponsors aren't stupid. My experience with sponsorship solicitation for pro and amateur series leads me to believe that they are as intently attuned to arbitrary behavior among governing bodies as are the teams and drivers. Entering into a series where personal grudges on behalf of the governing bodies dictate the actual existence of teams, is just bad business.

sort of takes the edge off that 'Karma-led' a$$-kicking that Ferrari is suffering so far this season, eh tamb?... ;) :p :

“I would rather fail in a cause that will ultimately triumph than to triumph in a cause that will ultimately fail”

[seamusoldfield]

Please pardon what will seem like a "noob" question, but I must ask. I've been an avid follower of F1 since 1988 and it's been only recently that I've been hearing about a "tense" relationship between Ron Dennis, Max Mosley and the FIA, et al. When did this begin and what are the reasons behind it? As I said, I never knew about these tensions until only recently. That said, knowing that these hostilities exist, it seems this whole lying debacle was used as leverage to get Dennis to step down. Why? I don't know! Someone, please enlighten me.

[leopard]

Teams like McLaren is one of measurement rod of F1, so warn of possible ban would be a not too good precedence for future F1. I can but suggest to sort every problem wisely other than putting forward power show-off...

[Knock-on]

Please pardon what will seem like a "noob" question, but I must ask. I've been an avid follower of F1 since 1988 and it's been only recently that I've been hearing about a "tense" relationship between Ron Dennis, Max Mosley and the FIA, et al. When did this begin and what are the reasons behind it? As I said, I never knew about these tensions until only recently. That said, knowing that these hostilities exist, it seems this whole lying debacle was used as leverage to get Dennis to step down. Why? I don't know! Someone, please enlighten me.

Ron put Mr Whippys nose out of joint a millinium ago and max has been gunning for him ever since.

[ArrowsFA1]

...it's been only recently that I've been hearing about a "tense" relationship between Ron Dennis, Max Mosley and the FIA, et al. When did this begin and what are the reasons behind it?
Given that Max's animosity towards Jackie Stewart dates back to comments made by the Scot about the 1970 March 701 used by Tyrrell it's probably hidden in the depths of time somewhere. When Max was a team owner Ron was a 'mere' mechanic and it seems Max has never had a high opinion of someone he once referred to as "not the sharpest knife in the box".

[markabilly]

The stewards interviewed Jarno , and he said he was allowed by .

If he had not been let by , he would be penalized .

.
The same applies to the SPEED interview .

It seems obvious to me that Ryan had no idea that Lewis had done the SPEED bit , as it would have been foolish to claim otherwise if Lewis had already admitted that he had allowed Jarno through under orders .

They were made to look like fools when the stewards re-opened the issue .
And , all because those 2 representatives of the McLaren team lied , the stewards needed to clean up a mess , not of thier own making .

They shouldn't have to listen to the tapes in such a simple situation .

.


You got one thing right, the interview.
Problem that many keep overlooking is that Ryan was not the one testifying---Hamilton was, and he is the only one who could truly answer the question as to his personal intent (which he did during the speed interview, which he must have thought , well no one will check or did he just forget?)

And why should they have listened to the tapes? After all, Lewis said he did not deliberately let him pass, and those tapes by themselves are not very conclusive.

But the interview, OOOPPPS and now Hamilton's confesion of being a liar.....

[Bagwan]

You got one thing right, the interview.
Problem that many keep overlooking is that Ryan was not the one testifying---Hamilton was, and he is the only one who could truly answer the question as to his personal intent (which he did during the speed interview, which he must have thought , well no one will check or did he just forget?)

And why should they have listened to the tapes? After all, Lewis said he did not deliberately let him pass, and those tapes by themselves are not very conclusive.

But the interview, OOOPPPS and now Hamilton's confesion of being a liar.....

It's all over but for the whipping .
Whitmarsh asked the team if he should leave .
Ron left .
Patsy can't be called back .
And now a letter of apology , pleading for mercy .

Sounds like a Kubrick film .
Me droogies , how , when I was so full of utter integrity , could you bare to have my eyes propped open , when all there is to see is the SPEED interview ?

[Hawkmoon]

I think that's right, and it is that context which contributed to the lie in front of the stewards. However, it doesn't excuse the lie, and McLaren have rightly been penalised for it already.

Had the stewards used the available team radio recordings as a part of their first investigation they would have had the full picture. Had they then questioned those involved having gathered the available evidence they could have come to a decision which would not have needed to be revisited once, let alone twice.

It's interesting that not only did the stewards not listen to the McLaren team radio before the first hearing, they also did not take heed of evidence Toyota tried to provide. Jarno Trulli says that "probably they were too busy, or it was too late, and nobody paid too much attention".

Add to that the fact that the stewards may never have needed to be involved had the Race Director responded to repeated requests for a rule clarification, then I think it is fair to say there are a number of issues, other than penalising McLaren again, that the FIA should be looking at.

I've stayed out of this debate for the most part as I simply don't have the enthusiasm for F1 that I once did, Getting old perhaps. But I've noticed that you've raised this point several times in the discussion and I have to say that I think you're trying to justify McLaren's actions to an extent. Whilst what you say is true Arrows, it doesn't mitigate McLaren's actions. The stewards wouldn't have needed any other evidence if McLaren hadn't lied to them. Simple as that. McLaren didn't lie because the Stewards didn't have all the evidence. The lack of evidence presented them with an opportunity to do the wrong thing and they took it. Bad form, no?

I can understand McLaren being paranoid about Stewards decisions but that doesn't give them an excuse to do what they did. They should have followed Trulli home, told the truth to the Stewards and at worst walked away with 4th, and at best got 3rd back.

You've got to admit that for a team with a reputation for being a well-run outfit the last few seasons have been rather perplexing. :confused:

[BDunnell]

You got one thing right, the interview.
Problem that many keep overlooking is that Ryan was not the one testifying---Hamilton was, and he is the only one who could truly answer the question as to his personal intent (which he did during the speed interview, which he must have thought , well no one will check or did he just forget?)

And why should they have listened to the tapes? After all, Lewis said he did not deliberately let him pass, and those tapes by themselves are not very conclusive.

But the interview, OOOPPPS and now Hamilton's confesion of being a liar.....

It is the idea that anyone should think that no-one would attempt to marry the recordings of the radio conversations, the evidence given to the stewards and the on-board camera footage together — not exactly rocket science — that I find most perplexing. It ought to have been deemed impossible to get away with lying, but for some reason it wasn't. Still, people under pressure do all sorts of strange, apparently inexplicable things.

The incident this most reminds me of is Brazil 2003. There was no way it should have been anything other than simple to ascertain who won that race. Likewise, it should have been nothing other than simple in this case for McLaren and Hamilton to have admitted a mistake, which would have probably and rightly seen them excluded from the results or given a penalty but would have avoided the current shenanigans, and for the FIA/race stewards to have worked out what happened and impose that suitable penalty in the immediate aftermath of the race with easy reference to all the sources of evidence.

[BDunnell]

McLaren didn't lie because the Stewards didn't have all the evidence. The lack of evidence presented them with an opportunity to do the wrong thing and they took it. Bad form, no?

Absolutely, hence my comments in my post above.

[ArrowsFA1]

You've got to admit that for a team with a reputation for being a well-run outfit the last few seasons have been rather perplexing. :confused:
Absolutely. Inexplicable even. I don't intend to justify what has happened, rather I'm trying to explain it.

We're often told by some that there is a "culture of deceit/lies/cheating" at McLaren and yet this was never mentioned prior to 2007.

Either they were really, really good at it before 2007 and have suddenly, inexplicably, become **** poor in the last couple of years, or there never has been such a culture at McLaren. Either way, it's a neat hook to hang them with.

We're often told by some that there is a "culture of deceit/lies/cheating" at McLaren and yet this was never mentioned prior to 2007.


No, because up until that time even the most devout and fundamental Tifosi would have respected Mclaren's integrity.

Nobody has said that they cheated before then. None of us claim that Mclaren were bent back in the days before 2007.

But, and the but is in bold for an inescapable reason, there has been a culture of deceit/lies/cheating at Mclaren since 2007. As they have admitted themselves. Twice.

Claiming that a lack of cheating before 2007 means there isn't a culture of deceit within the team is a weasels argument.....especially when the evidence is there for all to listen too that there is such a culture.

Not stabbing any women before 1975 doesn't prove that Peter Sutcliffe can't be mental.

Either they were really, really good at it before 2007 and have suddenly, inexplicably, become **** poor in the last couple of years, or there never has been such a culture at McLaren.

Or there has been a culture of deceit/lies/cheating since 2007.

Come to think of it, there's plenty of evidence for that but you choose not to consider that third option.

I think we know why.

Integrity is spelt I, N, T, R, E, G, R, I, T, Y and it's meaning is available in any reputable dictionary, should you need to double check.

[rabf1]

They should not let McLaren get away with this. They got caught cheating in the steneygate thing. Now they got caught cheating again. They can't help themselves. They should be banned for the remainder of the season.

[tintop]

Either they were really, really good at it before 2007 and have suddenly, inexplicably, become **** poor in the last couple of years, or there never has been such a culture at McLaren. Either way, it's a neat hook to hang them with.

Maybe they got desperate after they concluded that it was a rigged game?

Maybe they got desperate after they concluded that it was a rigged game?

I didn't notice that Renault were in cohoots with anybody when they won the game in 05 & 06.

Which somewhat fecks the notion that the game was "rigged", wouldn't you say?

Not to mention that a "rigged" game seemed very attractive to BMW, Toyota and Honda too. I can't see how the boardrooms of those companies would have willingly spent money on a game they couldn't win...

...oh, yes, I can....because it's a hogwash notion dreamed up by lsd washouts?

[Bagwan]

I didn't notice that Renault were in cohoots with anybody when they won the game in 05 & 06.

Which somewhat fecks the notion that the game was "rigged", wouldn't you say?

Not to mention that a "rigged" game seemed very attractive to BMW, Toyota and Honda too. I can't see how the boardrooms of those companies would have willingly spent money on a game they couldn't win...

...oh, yes, I can....because it's a hogwash notion dreamed up by lsd washouts?

Nice , Tam .
You really know how to rain on the justification parade .

That's gonna cost you three "Hail McLarens" , and your Ron Dennis wallet photo .

[BDunnell]

Integrity is spelt I, N, T, R, E, G, R, I, T, Y and it's meaning is available in any reputable dictionary, should you need to double check.

I would indeed double-check that dictionary. It's clearly telling you porkies.

[markabilly]

Or there has been a culture of deceit/lies/cheating since 2007.

Come to think of it, there's plenty of evidence for that but you choose not to consider that third option.

I think we know why.

Integrity is spelt I, N, T, R, E, G, R, I, T, Y and it's meaning is available in any reputable dictionary, should you need to double check.


I would indeed double-check that dictionary. It's clearly telling you porkies.


Yes, Tamb is wrong :down: and Dunnell is correct- :up: -

For the record, it is spelled V-E-T-T-E-L

as in Sebastian Vettel was also in trouble for the incident with Robert Kubica, although most people felt this odd because it looked like the Pole’s mistake. I even went to ask the FIA why the decision had been made and was told that Vettel had admitted that he was in trouble but wanted to hold his position. Kubica was a little impetuous but the stewards felt that Vettel was to blame. As a result of his honesty he will get a 10-place grid penalty in Malaysia. http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2009/03/29/the-results-of-the-protests/


And liar is spelled H-A-M-I-L-T-O-N





Also sometimes spelled in abbreviated form as "Mac"

[CNR]

are you all suggesting it is lewis because he joined the team in 2007
lies cheating since 2007 if they had taken lewis on as a test driver for a year he may have learnt to keep his mouth shut.
i gess no more post race interviews

I would indeed double-check that dictionary. It's clearly telling you porkies.

Doh!

Note to self - Don't type while stroking the cat!