Actual St. Pete tv ratings

[NickFalzone]

http://www.indycar.com/news/?story_id=13537

"VERSUS' race coverage was watched by more than 2 million viewers (.30 national HH rating and peaked at .40 during the race's final laps), while all of the telecasts reached 3.4 million viewers."

In other words, it averaged about 330k viewers (.30 translates to about 330k actual viewers). These are not terrible numbers, they're about what everyone expected. I hoped for better due to the promotion, etc. thats gone on, but not taking that into account, this viewership is no better or worse than anyone expected when going from ESPN to VS, a little over 1/3 dropoff due to smaller availability of VS. These are numbers that I can guarantee you VS is relatively pleased with. Sponsors, harder to say. They were given warning that ratings would drop off, and the switch to VS is part of the reason title sponsor has not happened, and Direct TV dropped out.

Here are some of the cable ratings from last year:

st. pete espn 420k
motegi espn2 190k (rainout)
long beach espn2 510k
nashville espn 500k
kentucky espn2 430k
sonoma espn2 410k

[The instant classic]

http://www.indycar.com/news/?story_id=13537

"VERSUS' race coverage was watched by more than 2 million viewers (.30 national HH rating and peaked at .40 during the race's final laps), while all of the telecasts reached 3.4 million viewers."

In other words, it averaged about 330k viewers (.30 translates to about 330k actual viewers). These are not terrible numbers, they're about what everyone expected. I hoped for better due to the promotion, etc. thats gone on, but not taking that into account, this viewership is no better or worse than anyone expected when going from ESPN to VS, a little over 1/3 dropoff due to smaller availability of VS. These are numbers that I can guarantee you VS is relatively pleased with. Sponsors, harder to say. They were given warning that ratings would drop off, and the switch to VS is part of the reason title sponsor has not happened, and Direct TV dropped out.

Here are some of the cable ratings from last year:

st. pete espn 420k
motegi espn2 190k (rainout)
long beach espn2 510k
nashville espn 500k
kentucky espn2 430k
sonoma espn2 410k
nice find
but let me play devils advocate here. that story came from indycar.com
wolud they post bad numbers on thier site? if the ratings where wosre and down by 60% like everyone said befor,

but i hope indycar.com posted the true ratings and im wrong in what i said

[NickFalzone]

That's pretty cynical :) But no, these are the actual final ratings. The earlier 60% ratings were the "overnights" which are estimates based on large markets. For some events the overnights are bigger, but in this case they were smaller. IRL tends to do better in smaller markets, or at least VS does.

These are ratings from a reputable source, Nielsen, which can be checked by others. However, one place where I would NOT trust a source like IndyCar.com is at track attendance figures. Those are notoriously difficult to get accurate final numbers on, and it usually comes down to someone like Curt Cavin saying "looked like more people than last year" or "hm that middle grandstand was kind of empty this year".

[NickFalzone]

I got a few more details on the numbers listed above. The .3 household rating the IRL got is the equivalent of 345,000 viewers (a 1.0 Nielsen currently represents 1.145 million viewers).

According to Wikipedia, IndyCar opener got slightly better ratings than the average NHL game on Versus last season (IRL 345k to NHL 246k):

2006–07 NHL ON VERSUS


Versus averaged a 0.2 Nielsen Media Research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nielsen_Media_Research) household rating, about level with the 2005–06 regular season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005%E2%80%9306_NHL_season) NHL numbers and its 2006 prime time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_time) average.
Versus' coverage of the 2007 All-Star Game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/55th_National_Hockey_League_All-Star_Game) garnered a .7 rating (474,298 viewing homes and 672,948 total viewers). Ratings were down 76% from ABC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NHL_on_ABC)'s ratings in 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/54th_National_Hockey_League_All-Star_Game), the last time the game was played, and down 82% from ABC's coverage in 2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50th_National_Hockey_League_All-Star_Game). However, some of that significant drop can be attributed to the game being played on a weeknight (Wednesday) as opposed to the traditional weekend game, and the fact that Versus is a cable television (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_television) network unlike ABC which is a broadcast network (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_network). The 2008 All-Star Game was scheduled for a Sunday.

2007–08 NHL ON VERSUS


In 2007–08, NHL audiences on Versus in the United States remain small, but have increased over the previous two seasons. Versus is averaging 246,154 viewers a game, up 24 percent from last year at this time. Over the past year, channel distribution has increased to 73.6 million households from 70.8 million. Conference Finals ratings are now averaging a 1.2 HH rating. Game 2 between the Flyers and Penguins drew a 1.7 HH rating, 2.3 million viewers; an NHL record on Versus.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The NHL on VS was criticized heavily at the time because without having any games on ESPN, they fell off the SportCenter radar. The IRL doesn't have that issue since ABC/ESPN will carry some races.

I think the ratings are about where most figured they would be. It is what it is as they say.....and I like the VS product a heck of a lot more than the ABC/ESPN version of races....

[MDS]

I wouldn't really worry too much at this point. If the audience doesn't improve much by Homestead, then I would worry.

Everyone knew the numbers would be done, and 300k was the expected audience. If they can build that to 500k by the end of the year I think it will have been successful.

I wouldn't expect the ratings to get to the 1.0 range until about year three. Hopefully this is as bad as it gets.

[SarahFan]

In other words, it averaged about 330k viewers (.30 translates to about 330k actual viewers).

^
the rest of the press release is gobbly gook

[Lee Roy]

Another IRL season, another year of "TV ratings should start to improve soon".

Somebody bump the juke box, the record is still skipping.

[dataman1]

Don't care how you view the ratings, they suck if you are selling sponsorship to a series title sponsor or a team sponsor.

[SarahFan]

Don't care how you view the ratings, they suck if you are selling sponsorship to a series title sponsor or a team sponsor.

that's the bottom line... and i could care less about a series sponsor.... tony has proven the past decade plus he can and will spend to keep his league afloat..

but teams simply cant sucure top sponsors and in turn pay top drivers with sub 1 ratings.... CC proved that .... twice

[garyshell]

Don't care how you view the ratings, they suck if you are selling sponsorship to a series title sponsor or a team sponsor.


that's the bottom line... and i could care less about a series sponsor.... tony has proven the past decade plus he can and will spend to keep his league afloat..

but teams simply cant sucure top sponsors and in turn pay top drivers with sub 1 ratings.... CC proved that .... twice


You guys got a solution or is this just more of the same old Monday morning quarterbacking? We get it the ratings suck. How many more ways can that be said?

Gary

[SarahFan]

You guys got a solution or is this just more of the same old Monday morning quarterbacking? We get it the ratings suck. How many more ways can that be said?

Gary

you have a problem discussions the ramifications...

the Biz of the sport is legitimate discussion....if it's not of interest to you then simply stick to the racing threads....

me... i enjoy actively participateing in both

[garyshell]

you have a problem discussions the ramifications...

the Biz of the sport is legitimate discussion....if it's not of interest to you then simply stick to the racing threads....

me... i enjoy actively participateing in both


Clearly there is a difference in discussion and rehashing the same facts over and over again. My question remains, as part of this DISCUSSION do you any solutions to offer up? Or do you have a problem discussing solutions as opposed to "hand wringing"?

Personally, I thought the idea of going to Versus was stupid when I first heard it. But I held judgment to wait and see. Then seeing the amount of coverage, the actual coverage itself, the number of advertisements on other cable channels (on a NON-COMCAST cable provider, Time Warner), and the Versus website content, I have to say I have been impressed. Clearly these guys understand the product. The same certainly cannot be said for the ABC-ESPN folks.

Let's roll the clock back a bit, shall we. When the upstart ESPN network started covering races the ratings were terrible. People ran around with a "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" attitude. We were all doomed. And where is it now? People asked their cable providers to add this new fangled ESPN to their line ups. And guess what, the providers did. Any of this sounding familiar? Time Warner added Versus to the basic digital tier in several markets already.

We are one, count 'em one, race into the season, and already "the sky HAS fallen" folks are out in full force. We need to give this a bit of time, don't ya think?

Yes it is a tough sell for the teams looking for sponsors with those numbers. But don't forget the number of hours of coverage also is a BIG factor as well. And now with one race on tape, there is some MUCH better material to actually show a potential sponsor. Also the IZOD activation is another tool that can be shown to a prospect. "See look at how much these folks are betting on this becoming a bigger market. Now is the time for YOU Mr. or Ms. Sponsor to get in on this ground floor opportunity. We are now on a channel that will treat you with respect and not preempt your big splashy front of show spot because the womens underwater badminton championships ran over by fifteen minutes."

Yes, the raw numbers suck. They sucked last year and at the same time the sponsors were treated like s**t by ESPN and ABC. We ALL knew they would suck at first. So why the hand wringing now? Care to discuss?

Gary

[dataman1]

Gary,

Read your own signature tag line man. No way I'm gonna offer a solution. I am not part of the problem as my job was eliminated in AOWR with unification.

[SarahFan]

Clearly there is a difference in discussion and rehashing the same facts over and over again. My question remains, as part of this DISCUSSION do you any solutions to offer up? Or do you have a problem discussing solutions as opposed to "hand wringing"?

Personally, I thought the idea of going to Versus was stupid when I first heard it. But I held judgment to wait and see. Then seeing the amount of coverage, the actual coverage itself, the number of advertisements on other cable channels (on a NON-COMCAST cable provider, Time Warner), and the Versus website content, I have to say I have been impressed. Clearly these guys understand the product. The same certainly cannot be said for the ABC-ESPN folks.

Let's roll the clock back a bit, shall we. When the upstart ESPN network started covering races the ratings were terrible. People ran around with a "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" attitude. We were all doomed. And where is it now? People asked their cable providers to add this new fangled ESPN to their line ups. And guess what, the providers did. Any of this sounding familiar? Time Warner added Versus to the basic digital tier in several markets already.

We are one, count 'em one, race into the season, and already "the sky HAS fallen" folks are out in full force. We need to give this a bit of time, don't ya think?

Yes it is a tough sell for the teams looking for sponsors with those numbers. But don't forget the number of hours of coverage also is a BIG factor as well. And now with one race on tape, there is some MUCH better material to actually show a potential sponsor. Also the IZOD activation is another tool that can be shown to a prospect. "See look at how much these folks are betting on this becoming a bigger market. Now is the time for YOU Mr. or Ms. Sponsor to get in on this ground floor opportunity. We are now on a channel that will treat you with respect and not preempt your big splashy front of show spot because the womens underwater badminton championships ran over by fifteen minutes."

Yes, the raw numbers suck. They sucked last year and at the same time the sponsors were treated like s**t by ESPN and ABC. We ALL knew they would suck at first. So why the hand wringing now? Care to discuss?

Gary

excellent post gary....and it is worthy of more time then I have this afternoon......

and i will address it further later...

but quickly... the solution is to disolve the IRL and restructure....think homeowners assocition

[chuck34]

but quickly... the solution is to disolve the IRL and restructure....think homeowners assocition

You can't have the inmates run the assylum, "CC proved that .... twice"

No the solution is just what Gary has said. Show your prospective sponsor the other market activation activity that is going on and the VASTLY better on screen product. Then draw the parrallel with NASCAR/ESPN in the 80's. If they're smart they'll get it and want in on the ground level.

[SarahFan]

You can't have the inmates run the assylum, "CC proved that .... twice"

.


this sentiment gets repeated constantly... yet holds no validity whatsoever..

the first time around CART was detroyed becuase of the IPO.... and the second time around it was owned and operated by 2 1/4 of the team owners, all with different agendas

[chuck34]

all with different agendas

That'll be different this time, why?

Show me one sport where the teams/owners run the show.

[SarahFan]

That'll be different this time, why?

Show me one sport where the teams/owners run the show.



Your not paying attention

[garyshell]

excellent post gary....and it is worthy of more time then I have this afternoon......

and i will address it further later...

but quickly... the solution is to disolve the IRL and restructure....think homeowners assocition


Oh the old blow it up and start all over play. Yep, that's REALLY going to garner the attention of sponsors. And oh wait, what about the 500 pound gorilla sitting there in the corner at 16th and Georgetown. How do you think the gorilla would react to this? Remember he holds the keys to what the sponsors REALLY want at this point. If the series can get it's feet firmly under itself, it time other venues might hold some interest with team sponsors. But right now Madison Ave. could give a rats behind about Iowa, Kentucky or even Long Beach. They will support the teams at those venues just to get their name shown at the 500. Take away the 500 and see how many would even blink as they pulled out.

Did we not learn ANYTHING from the past 14 years? I despise King George, but I think I did learn a bit in all this, hard as it is for me to admit.

Gary

[chuck34]

Your not paying attention

Enlighten me then, what am I missing?

[SarahFan]

Oh the old blow it up and start all over play. Yep, that's REALLY going to garner the attention of sponsors. And oh wait, what about the 500 pound gorilla sitting there in the corner at 16th and Georgetown. How do you think the gorilla would react to this? Remember he holds the keys to what the sponsors REALLY want at this point. If the series can get it's feet firmly under itself, it time other venues might hold some interest with team sponsors. But right now Madison Ave. could give a rats behind about Iowa, Kentucky or even Long Beach. They will support the teams at those venues just to get their name shown at the 500. Take away the 500 and see how many would even blink as they pulled out.

Did we not learn ANYTHING from the past 14 years? I despise King George, but I think I did learn a bit in all this, hard as it is for me to admit.

Gary

never said blow it all up..... or takeing away the 500.....just restructure... reprioritize

and the fact is madison ave would take notice if Tony handed over operation of the IRL to a another entity... the reality is why would they get on board the same train running around in circles

[SarahFan]

Enlighten me then, what am I missing?

where would you like me start...

you have twice falsely linked CART/CCWS failure with owners running the asylum.... both times that is patently false


*and we might as well throw it out there... so is the notion that since Nascar is ruled by the frances then one man in Tony George must be the only way to go for the IRL.... the Frnaces don't have the conflict of interest of maintianing IMS and the 500 to contend with

[SarahFan]

Show me one sport where the teams/owners run the show.

certainly not in the fashion your suggesting..... but look no further than the NBA/NFL/MLB

[garyshell]

where would you like me start...

you have twice falsely linked CART/CCWS failure with owners running the asylum.... both times that is patently false


*and we might as well throw it out there... so is the notion that since Nascar is ruled by the frances then one man in Tony George must be the only way to go for the IRL.... the Frnaces don't have the conflict of interest of maintianing IMS and the 500 to contend with

Now who isn't paying attention? Tell me again how the Frances don't have EXACTLY the same sort of conflict of interest. Who owns ISC, then? And how many tracks does ISC control?

Gary

[chuck34]

certainly not in the fashion your suggesting..... but look no further than the NBA/NFL/MLB

The NBA, NFL, and MLB all have a commissioner. The owners pick the man, but then he has all the say not them. If you are suggesting such an arrangement, I may be willing to accept that, as long as track owners and car owners both get a say.

And as for you saying the Frances don't have any conflict ... well Gary beat me to it, ever hear of ISC?

[SarahFan]

Now who isn't paying attention? Tell me again how the Frances don't have EXACTLY the same sort of conflict of interest. Who owns ISC, then? And how many tracks does ISC control?

Gary


fair enough gary.... but lets be honest... one is managed with an iron hand and the other a public company responsible to share holders...neither remotely applies to Tony and the IRL/IMS

[Mark in Oshawa]

Gary, I cant find fault with your points.

Ken, what you keep missing from the last 14 years is that the gent at 16th and Georgetown was in this fight to win it and did. He had the sponsors who still care about OW racing. He has the race they want to be associated with. Any restructure of the series has to go through Tony now. The option of going around him was muffed with CART's mismanagement of their stars, teams and venues in the late 90's. You can wish for a better series structure, better management and a new wonderful world all you want but THAT aint reality bud.

The TV contract they have is NOT ideal, but for what the series is now and the landscape of racing that isn't NASCAR, they have a pretty good TV product that isn't on enough screens but that is a reality we knew going in. So the rating suck? How do YOU propose they fix them? Don't give me your goobledegook about restructuring the series. THAT isn't happening and if you had 50 cents worth of honesty on this you would admit that.

I think the product needs maybe two or three chassis, more aggressive promotion and a good relationship between series management and the teams. Then time, and patience as the product hopefully finds its audience again. What you want cant happen and as much as I have little time for Tony George, we are stuck with him and I will admit that his race is still the jewel of the sport. His putting this series mainly on VS was the best option available really and since the product has looked good after one date, lets give it time.

[garyshell]

fair enough gary.... but lets be honest... one is managed with an iron hand and the other a public company responsible to share holders...neither remotely applies to Tony and the IRL/IMS

Ok, then tell me about these "shareholders". I'll give you a little hint as to who they are:

http://ir.iscmotorsports.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=113983&p=irol-sec

If you really believe that ISC is responsible to the "shareholders", I have some credit default swaps I'd like to sell you. The "C" in ISC is only there for tax purposes and maximization of the France family fortune. Period.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ok, then tell me about these "shareholders". I'll give you a little hint as to who they are:

http://ir.iscmotorsports.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=113983&p=irol-sec

If you really believe that ISC is responsible to the "shareholders", I have some credit default swaps I'd like to sell you. The "C" in ISC is only there for tax purposes and maximization of the France family fortune. Period.

Gary

ISC is the muse the provoked all of this way back in 1994. The barons in Daytona were the ones who were eager to encourage Tony on in his desire to control OW racing. It worked well for NASCAR...not sure how anyone can say it worked well for Indycars...

[chuck34]

ISC is the muse the provoked all of this way back in 1994. The barons in Daytona were the ones who were eager to encourage Tony on in his desire to control OW racing. It worked well for NASCAR...not sure how anyone can say it worked well for Indycars...

Just to be a jerk I'll add this. It worked quite well for me as an IRL fan untill about 2002 or so when they introduced the engine leases and pretty much killed what I liked about the "original vision".

[Lee Roy]

"ISC is the muse the provoked all of this way back in 1994. The barons in Daytona were the ones who were eager to encourage Tony on in his desire to control OW racing. It worked well for NASCAR...not sure how anyone can say it worked well for Indycars..."

Blaming NASCAR for the woes of Indy Car racing is Indy Car fans way of not dealing with the reality of Indy Car providing a product that few people want. Blaming NASCAR is much easier than accepting reality.

[chuck34]

Blaming NASCAR for the woes of Indy Car racing is Indy Car fans way of not dealing with the reality of Indy Car providing a product that few people want. Blaming NASCAR is much easier than accepting reality.

This Indy Car fan does not blame NASCAR for anything. There is enough room for us both, if done right. And it hasn't been done right yet, by either side.

[SarahFan]

ISC is the muse the provoked all of this way back in 1994. The barons in Daytona were the ones who were eager to encourage Tony on in his desire to control OW racing. It worked well for NASCAR...not sure how anyone can say it worked well for Indycars...



Urban legend

[SarahFan]

This Indy Car fan does not blame NASCAR for anything. There is enough room for us both, if done right. And it hasn't been done right yet, by either side.



Yep....NASCAR has really F'ed the last 2 decades.......

*insert rollypollie

[Jag_Warrior]

The issue that the IRL might have is whether it and its teams are prepared to cut the cost of sponsorship (and operating costs) so that the IRL can better compete with Grand Am (with about the same ratings), ALMS (with equal or higher ratings), NASCAR Truck series (with higher ratings) and NASCAR Nationwide series (with much higher ratings).

No point in putting NASCAR Sprint in this, since the costs are much higher in Sprint Cup. But the sponsor exposure value for the top Sprint Cup teams is also greater than the entire IRL. Just sticking with the series I mentioned above, what does the IRL have to sell besides the ratings... which despite the spin of combining viewership for several shows into one figure, are anything but good (expected or not)?

[NickFalzone]

The issue that the IRL might have is whether it and its teams are prepared to cut the cost of sponsorship (and operating costs) so that the IRL can better compete with Grand Am (with about the same ratings), ALMS (with equal or higher ratings), NASCAR Truck series (with higher ratings) and NASCAR Nationwide series (with much higher ratings).

No point in putting NASCAR Sprint in this, since the costs are much higher in Sprint Cup. But the sponsor exposure value for the top Sprint Cup teams is also greater than the entire IRL. Just sticking with the series I mentioned above, what does the IRL have to sell besides the ratings... which despite the spin of combining viewership for several shows into one figure, are anything but good (expected or not)?

Well, that's part of the problem right there. IndyCar as a racing series is second only to F1, but in the last decade the perception has changed to the extent that truck and sports car racing can generate similar or better tv ratings. This is not a result of the spec, or the quality of drivers in the IRL, it's largely a result of the split which fractured the fanbase and financially hurt IndyCar racing as a whole. This financial strain has resulted in the key here, which is a VERY weak promotion of the series. I see things turning around in that department, but they have a long way to go before the series is considered at all "popular".

One thing to note about all of this is that all sports tend to have significant shifts up and down in popularity over course of 10-20 years. I believe that auto racing in general is in a slump. According to USA Today, NASCAR is down 11% in ratings so far this season, and was off 15% for last week's Texas race. This is a significant decline, on the same networks, same airtimes (unlike the VS situation). I think we're in a place with the IRL where the make or break is going to be over the next 2-4 years, as it comes out of the pain from the split and ideally the auto industry and economy in general will pick up over that time. Focusing on 1 specific race is very narrow-minded and doesn't speak much to what's actually going on with the series. The long view is what matters here, as can be seen with the modest but significant growth the NHL has shown on VS since debuting there.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Blaming NASCAR for the woes of Indy Car racing is Indy Car fans way of not dealing with the reality of Indy Car providing a product that few people want. Blaming NASCAR is much easier than accepting reality.

Lee Roy, the people who run open wheeled racing do have a lot to answer to I agree, but make no mistake. Tony George was quite neutral to indifferent to CART's failings until he started his friendship with the France's and brought NASCAR to the Brickyard. While I think that was a GREAT idea for IMS and have no issue with that, the money it generates gave Tony a bit of a financial cushion to get F1 as well and go into ventures such as Chicagoland with ISC. They were his business partners in Chicagoland and quite with him when he announced his vision since any attempts to help oval development by offering up IRL races to ISC/NASCAR venues would be seen as a plus. Lets face it, CART wasn't utilizing ovals to the manner they should have.

I don't blame the France's and NASCAR/ISC for Tony's war with CART, but they did encourage him and work to make sure he was a viable partner for their needs.

[Mark in Oshawa]

As for comparing the IRL to anyone else in the racing world, they are with ALMS behind NASCAR's 3 divisions and F1 on American TV. They were not THAT 15 years ago and yes, that whole split thing is the reason why.

Now we are all together, for better or worse, IRL/CCWS becoming one, and the fans of this series have to just be patient. From what I have seen the racing is coming back, the tv product is easier to accept, if not on enough TV's and they are reaching venues of all sorts and concentrating on North America. Patience and an improving economy just may allow this series off the ropes. Will it compete week to week with any of the NASCAR series events? Take away the Indy 500 and I say not in any way. 10 years from now...I would hope they would out draw a Nationwide and Truck race but I think NASCAR is the BMOC now with their Cup Series and I don't see that changing for Americans in their taste for racing....

[F1boat]

Please, can you tell me what is the rating of motorsports on US TV? At what order are the NASCAR 3 divisions, IRL, F1, ALMS and the Roles Series?

[SarahFan]

Gary, I cant find fault with your points.

Ken, what you keep missing from the last 14 years is that the gent at 16th and Georgetown was in this fight to win it and did. He had the sponsors who still care about OW racing. He has the race they want to be associated with. Any restructure of the series has to go through Tony now. The option of going around him was muffed with CART's mismanagement of their stars, teams and venues in the late 90's. You can wish for a better series structure, better management and a new wonderful world all you want but THAT aint reality bud.

The TV contract they have is NOT ideal, but for what the series is now and the landscape of racing that isn't NASCAR, they have a pretty good TV product that isn't on enough screens but that is a reality we knew going in. So the rating suck? How do YOU propose they fix them? Don't give me your goobledegook about restructuring the series. THAT isn't happening and if you had 50 cents worth of honesty on this you would admit that.

.


what your missing is that I'm not suggesting the restructure doesn't go thru Tony Goerge

just the opposite

[DBell]

Please, can you tell me what is the rating of motorsports on US TV? At what order are the NASCAR 3 divisions, IRL, F1, ALMS and the Roles Series?


I believe a typical Nascar Sprint Cup race is in the 4.0 to 5.0 range.

I remember seeing that a F1 race on a major network got a 1.2 or a 1.4 last year. Most F1 races are on Speed here and a typical Euro round starts at 7:30 AM here on the east coast, 4:30 AM on the west coast so the ratings are considerably lower.

Last year the IRL would get a low 1.x on a network, .6 to 1.0 on ESPN.

Indy 500 before the split got ratings in the 9.x range, now it's in the 4.5 area.

CART before the split had ratings in the 2.0 to 3.0 range that I remember seeing.

I think ALMS is around the same as the IRL last year. The lower tier Nascar series and Rolex series I don't really know.

[Lee Roy]

I don't blame the France's and NASCAR/ISC for Tony's war with CART, but they did encourage him and work to make sure he was a viable partner for their needs.

Do you have some proof to back up this statement?

[chuck34]

Yep....NASCAR has really F'ed the last 2 decades.......

*insert rollypollie

Commercially you are right, the last 2 decades have been great. But from my viewpoint as a fan they have F'ed it up. I used to watch when they were "Stock Cars". Now it's just IROC with more cars, and I've lost a lot of interest, and I think alot of others have as well. The bare stands at some races bear that point out.

[chuck34]

what your missing is that I'm not suggesting the restructure doesn't go thru Tony Goerge

just the opposite

Ken that is exactly the point. You HAVE to go through Tony. That is THE lesson to be learned from the last 15 years. Like him or not, Tony holds all the chips.

[Lee Roy]

Now it's just IROC with more cars,

That's a better description of the IRL.

The teams in NASCAR are still allowed to build their own cars. The IRL teams are required to use the same "off the shelf" chasis. Kinda like IROC.

The teams in NASCAR can still build their own engines, of which there are four to choose from. In the IRL they get the same exact engine from the same exact tuner, no input or modification from the teams allowed. Kinda like IROC.

[dataman1]

Do you have some proof to back up this statement?

I feel that once Tony began associating with the Frances, Tony may have been influenced by what he saw in the France empire and tried to do the same with open wheel. Nobody will know for sure if actual conversations took place and deals were offered unless Tony or the Frances admit to it.

Sort of like how a kid sees another getting praise from mom and then attempts to immitate the same actions to get the same praise.

[chuck34]

That's a better description of the IRL.

The teams in NASCAR are still allowed to build their own cars. The IRL teams are required to use the same "off the shelf" chasis. Kinda like IROC.

The teams in NASCAR can still build their own engines, of which there are four to choose from. In the IRL they get the same exact engine from the same exact tuner, no input or modification from the teams allowed. Kinda like IROC.

Yep. I'm not saying I like the technological state of the IRL either. I have said multiple times on this forum that I much prefered the "original vision" where you could buy a Chevy engine and have someone build it for you, or do it yourself. I would also like the same type of thing to happen with chassis.

[dataman1]

I have read many good ideas from several different writers in the past pages of this thread. Is there a way to collect these and get them to management at the IRL? Maybe we should set up our own American Open Wheel Racing Roundtable meeting in Indy and invite the mover's and shakers to listen to the fans.

[garyshell]

what your missing is that I'm not suggesting the restructure doesn't go thru Tony Goerge

just the opposite


Huh? What YOU are missing is an explanation of just what sort of re-structuring you are suggesting. We have no clue what it is you are even talking about.

Gary

[garyshell]

Do you have some proof to back up this statement?


Well lets see, subsequent to the alleged behind the scenes "divide and conquer" tactics that split the AOWR community (I use the word alleged but personally think it did happen), the France family went overt with their operations to destroy the sports car racing community by engineering a split with the "Grand Sham" series. And then did EXACTLY the same thing with motorcycle racing. You don't see a pattern here that can easily be traced back? Or are you demanding documents and taped telephone conversations?

To quote Mr. Dylan, you don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows.

Gary

[garyshell]

The teams in NASCAR are still allowed to build their own cars.

Man your really have taken a HUGE gulp of the France Family kool aid. Do you REALLY believe that drivel? The COT is a joke, the only thing that differentiates it from any other spec series is the slight changes in the shape of the nose and the decals they use to TRY to fake the fans into thinking these pieces of junk have grill work and headlights. I had an uncle who drove in NASCAR in the sixties and Nelson would be spinning in his grave if he knew what the other idiot grandson has done to his beloved sport.


Gary

[garyshell]

Today's carbon fiber tubs can not be built that way. It requires more sophisticated equipment that is not that readily available to someone wishing to build a one off. Further, to be economically viable, you have to build a bunch of them. More than a start up organization, which in days gone past would field cars for only one or two teams (if they could find a taker), can afford to do on spec.

You know that made me think of something. I am pretty sure it is not an original thought, greater minds than mine have surely thought of this as well.

The big plus with the carbon fiber tubs has always been the safety factor for the drivers. What if the drivers "cocoon" part of the tub were spec and provided by a single supplier, and the teams would be free to build a space frame or monocoque around that stock piece? The carbon fiber (aka expensive bits) would be relegated to ONLY this safety tub. It could open up the innovation in a way that ought not be so expensive. It might bring back some of the privateer types we so long for. I just know there has to be a BIG piece I am missing here so fire away guys punch this full of holes. Trust me, I have no ego in this idea, I am thinking out loud. ...big ol' grin...

Gary

[SarahFan]

Huh? What YOU are missing is an explanation of just what sort of re-structuring you are suggesting. We have no clue what it is you are even talking about.

Gary

simmer down Gary.... I posted yesterday that it was a busy day... i didn't have time to delve deeply... but think 'homeowners association'.... remember?

bottom line is the current Biz model isn't working....TV is a disaster....3's aren't going to get it done... reality is neither are 1.0's and thats a distant flicker of light in the tunnel..

League has been on a decade long search for title sponsorship and the value is currently 1/2 of what it was when the search began...

then there is the schedule...deep down the IRL needs to add a few Ovals....simply becuase a few more roads/streets are coming....the schedule needs to get to the low 20's to provide sponsors a realitive return vs the 3 levels of nascar....

Tony eluded to 2013 in an interview... and as much as some want to say it was a throw away that's rediculous....while i dont think for a second Tony is seriosly considering closeing up the IRl......but it certainly means he is aware that the league is bleeding and change needs to happen to survive......for example sometimes during a slow week at the restaurants we will be having a big night and I'll tongue i cheek say 'whew, good thing its busy now your checks not going to bounce'... now theres no chance I'm going let a check bounce, but its referenceing the reality of the current Biz climate...


and further you made reference in this thread earlier about wallstreet only being interested in the 500.....true... but also a problem... huge problem... and this is where Tony has a monumental problem... he simply hasn't been able to juggle both the 500 and the league and grow both..... yes i mentioned Nascar and the frances earlier... poor choice on my part, i'll take the lumps i recieved... but that doesn't change the fact that both the league and the 500 are less than before and/or should be...currently big biz isn't interested.... and they aren't going to take notice until meanigful change has taken place



so.....

I believe sometime during 2011 give or take a 6 or 8 months Tony is going to relinguish control of the IRL..... and along with the other team owners form a 'home owners assocition'... exactly how it will be structured I'm not sure, i could speculate as easily as you and 3 dozen others on this board and come up with a different yet similar scenerio.......

but i do think think they will appoint a commisioner ala the NBA/NFL/MLB....

[garyshell]

so.....

I believe sometime during 2011 give or take a 6 or 8 months Tony is going to relinquish control of the IRL..... and along with the other team owners form a 'home owners assocition'... exactly how it will be structured I'm not sure, i could speculate as easily as you and 3 dozen others on this board and come up with a different yet similar scenerio.......

but i do think think they will appoint a commissioner ala the NBA/NFL/MLB....


After three quarters of a page rehashing what the problems are for the umpteenth time we finally get to this. I know I should never drink Diet Coke while I read these forums but let me grab something to cleanup after my Danny Thomas spit take. OK... there, that's better I can see the screen again. Man, whatever you are smokin :s mokin: please pass it this way. That must be some good stuff, if it makes you actually believe what you just wrote. Can you really stand in front of a mirror look yourself in the eye and repeat that line while believing it? There is no freakin' way you will ever get King George to share control with the other owners.

There is only one scenario where I could see this playing out, that would be if Roger, AJ, Chip, Carl, Michael and a couple other folks marched in, arm in arm and demanded something. Even then, I think King George would tell 'em to pound sand since he still controls the 500 and knows damn well that the sponsors will go where the 500 goes even with the reduced glamor it has today over what it was 15-20 years ago. He holds THE card. It is really that simple, like it or not. I hate it. But I am realistic enough to understand what really transpired since that day when King George dreamed up the whole idea of the IRL.

You have a de facto commissioner now, his name is King George. What will adding a different figure head change?

Gary

[SarahFan]

King George dreamed up the whole idea of the IRL.



Gary

and during that day of dreaming it never crossed his mind it would be costing him 10's of millions annually......

and if you dont think Rog and company aren't already whispering in his ear pass on over what your smokin

[Jag_Warrior]

I believe a typical Nascar Sprint Cup race is in the 4.0 to 5.0 range.

I remember seeing that a F1 race on a major network got a 1.2 or a 1.4 last year. Most F1 races are on Speed here and a typical Euro round starts at 7:30 AM here on the east coast, 4:30 AM on the west coast so the ratings are considerably lower.

Last year the IRL would get a low 1.x on a network, .6 to 1.0 on ESPN.

Indy 500 before the split got ratings in the 9.x range, now it's in the 4.5 area.

CART before the split had ratings in the 2.0 to 3.0 range that I remember seeing.

I think ALMS is around the same as the IRL last year. The lower tier Nascar series and Rolex series I don't really know.

I believe you're right. As best I recall from last year's numbers, ALMS got about the same as the IRL on cable... I don't know about the over-air network comparisons.

Ratings for Grand Am's opening race of 2009, the Rolex 24 at Daytona, were up 47% over last year. The lead in on Fox had 1.2 million viewers. The finish on Speed had around 750,000 viewers. I believe viewership averaged about 300K for Grand Am in 2008... about the same as the IRL got on Versus last week.

According to MotorsportsNews, the NASCAR Truck series averaged around 700,000 viewers per race, and viewership peaked at around 850,000 in 2008, all races being shown on Speed.

ESPN2 got a 2.1 rating for the Sam’s Town 300 Nationwide Series race earlier this year, and averaged 2.8 million viewers. I believe their ratings typically fall in the high 1's low 2's on ESPN2.

[garyshell]

and during that day of dreaming it never crossed his mind it would be costing him 10's of millions annually......

and if you dont think Rog and company aren't already whispering in his ear pass on over what your smokin

I'm sure he didn't count on it taking so long to bury CART, but once the die was cast he couldn't do anything except wait it out, tens of millions or not. But with the Brickyard 400 in his wallet he had the reserves to do the waiting. (And for those about to pounce on the burying CART intent comment, believe whatever you want. But I never bought his coexistence speech from day one. )

Yep, I am sure they are all whispering in his ear. But, I am also sure that he is enough of an ego maniac to never give up control. He has no incentive too, as long as he has the keys to IMS. Actually I just thought of another scenario that MIGHT play out that would force him to give up control, that would be if the rest of the Hulman family marched into his office and deposed him. He only holds the keys to IMS as long as the FAMILY allows him too.

Ken, I don't disagree for a moment with what you would like to see happen. I only disagree with your notion that it might.

Gary

[Jag_Warrior]

Well, that's part of the problem right there. IndyCar as a racing series is second only to F1, but in the last decade the perception has changed to the extent that truck and sports car racing can generate similar or better tv ratings.

To American open wheel fans, one might argue that "Indy style" racing is/was second only to F1, but I believe that it would be hard to find the data to support that opinion.

I used to track the ratings for all the major series. And while CART's ratings tended to be in the same neighborhood as Winston Cup, since 1993 (when my study started), CART didn't post a single Nielsen rating that was higher than the top NASCAR series. But then we were talking about a 2.6 vs. a 3.7 (for example). Now we're talking about a .5 vs. a 4.0, or something like that. The divergence is what is amazing. And while NASCAR's top series has been trending downward for the past year or so, the gap hasn't closed to any great degree.

F1 has dominated TV race fan viewership globally and NASCAR Winston/Sprint Cup has dominated domestically for the past 20+ years. The current IRL viewership doesn't even match what IMSA and Trans Am were getting in the mid 90's. That's why sports car fans are not shy about claiming to have the premier road racing series in the U.S. now - and the numbers are there to give them a good enough argument.


This is not a result of the spec, or the quality of drivers in the IRL, it's largely a result of the split which fractured the fanbase and financially hurt IndyCar racing as a whole. This financial strain has resulted in the key here, which is a VERY weak promotion of the series. I see things turning around in that department, but they have a long way to go before the series is considered at all "popular".

I agree with most of that.


One thing to note about all of this is that all sports tend to have significant shifts up and down in popularity over course of 10-20 years. I believe that auto racing in general is in a slump. According to USA Today, NASCAR is down 11% in ratings so far this season, and was off 15% for last week's Texas race. This is a significant decline, on the same networks, same airtimes (unlike the VS situation).

True enough. But the IRL is on Versus less by choice than by necessity. If ABC had said, "we'll put all of your races on over air and pay you to boot", that's where the IRL would be. Declining or low viewership led ABC/ESPN to make whatever offer it did. But I agree with you about the general trends, except that Grand Am is up dramatically so far in 2009.



I think we're in a place with the IRL where the make or break is going to be over the next 2-4 years, as it comes out of the pain from the split and ideally the auto industry and economy in general will pick up over that time. Focusing on 1 specific race is very narrow-minded and doesn't speak much to what's actually going on with the series. The long view is what matters here, as can be seen with the modest but significant growth the NHL has shown on VS since debuting there.

I think all we can get from this race's TV rating is that expectations were low and they were met. The trend has been down for years. Nothing happened last weekend to violate that trend.

My original question was more about what the IRL and its teams can do, in this "it is what it is" environment, to compete with other series that may be offering the same or slightly better bang for the buck. That's why I took NASCAR Sprint Cup off the table. There's no point in comparing the IRL with NASCAR Sprint Cup. I've done OK dabbling in real estate, but I wouldn't compare anything that I've done to what Mort Zuckerman has done.

[jimispeed]

After three quarters of a page rehashing what the problems are for the umpteenth time we finally get to this. I know I should never drink Diet Coke while I read these forums but let me grab something to cleanup after my Danny Thomas spit take. OK... there, that's better I can see the screen again. Man, whatever you are smokin :s mokin: please pass it this way. That must be some good stuff, if it makes you actually believe what you just wrote. Can you really stand in front of a mirror look yourself in the eye and repeat that line while believing it? There is no freakin' way you will ever get King George to share control with the other owners.

There is only one scenario where I could see this playing out, that would be if Roger, AJ, Chip, Carl, Michael and a couple other folks marched in, arm in arm and demanded something. Even then, I think King George would tell 'em to pound sand since he still controls the 500 and knows damn well that the sponsors will go where the 500 goes even with the reduced glamor it has today over what it was 15-20 years ago. He holds THE card. It is really that simple, like it or not. I hate it. But I am realistic enough to understand what really transpired since that day when King George dreamed up the whole idea of the IRL.

You have a de facto commissioner now, his name is King George. What will adding a different figure head change?

Gary


Good stuff Gary!!

And that "Homeowners Association" is exactly what Tony George didn't want in the first place.

I'm just hoping for the right moves to be made that give the fans, and drivers the ultimate competition!!

[SarahFan]

you can only bleed from an apendage for so long

[The instant classic]

That's pretty cynical :) But no, these are the actual final ratings. The earlier 60% ratings were the "overnights" which are estimates based on large markets. For some events the overnights are bigger, but in this case they were smaller. IRL tends to do better in smaller markets, or at least VS does.

These are ratings from a reputable source, Nielsen, which can be checked by others. However, one place where I would NOT trust a source like IndyCar.com is at track attendance figures. Those are notoriously difficult to get accurate final numbers on, and it usually comes down to someone like Curt Cavin saying "looked like more people than last year" or "hm that middle grandstand was kind of empty this year".
ah thanks, i heard so many ratings views wasnt sure witch was true

[Mark in Oshawa]

Do you have some proof to back up this statement?

I have no proof, just my opinion but lets think about that for a while. It seems interesting to me that the Brickyard race, the creation of Tony building Chicagoland with ISC and the ISC building Kansas as well giving the IRL another oval to work with all within a few years cant be seen as a VERY close relationship. It is at this time the IRL came about as well. Tony up to 1993 was basically minding his store in Indy and CART was relevent to more race fans than the IRL ever HAS been.

There wont be PROOF, and it is my opinion only I admit, but you have to admit that there is a lot of action by Tony George at the same time the France's through NASCAR and ISC started doing a lot of business with Tony. Cause and effect or just coincedance?

[Mark in Oshawa]

simmer down Gary.... I posted yesterday that it was a busy day... i didn't have time to delve deeply... but think 'homeowners association'.... remember?

bottom line is the current Biz model isn't working....TV is a disaster....3's aren't going to get it done... reality is neither are 1.0's and thats a distant flicker of light in the tunnel..

League has been on a decade long search for title sponsorship and the value is currently 1/2 of what it was when the search began...

then there is the schedule...deep down the IRL needs to add a few Ovals....simply becuase a few more roads/streets are coming....the schedule needs to get to the low 20's to provide sponsors a realitive return vs the 3 levels of nascar....

Tony eluded to 2013 in an interview... and as much as some want to say it was a throw away that's rediculous....while i dont think for a second Tony is seriosly considering closeing up the IRl......but it certainly means he is aware that the league is bleeding and change needs to happen to survive......for example sometimes during a slow week at the restaurants we will be having a big night and I'll tongue i cheek say 'whew, good thing its busy now your checks not going to bounce'... now theres no chance I'm going let a check bounce, but its referenceing the reality of the current Biz climate...


and further you made reference in this thread earlier about wallstreet only being interested in the 500.....true... but also a problem... huge problem... and this is where Tony has a monumental problem... he simply hasn't been able to juggle both the 500 and the league and grow both..... yes i mentioned Nascar and the frances earlier... poor choice on my part, i'll take the lumps i recieved... but that doesn't change the fact that both the league and the 500 are less than before and/or should be...currently big biz isn't interested.... and they aren't going to take notice until meanigful change has taken place



so.....

I believe sometime during 2011 give or take a 6 or 8 months Tony is going to relinguish control of the IRL..... and along with the other team owners form a 'home owners assocition'... exactly how it will be structured I'm not sure, i could speculate as easily as you and 3 dozen others on this board and come up with a different yet similar scenerio.......

but i do think think they will appoint a commisioner ala the NBA/NFL/MLB....

Ken. Gary's right. You are just not being cogent here. Tony didn't go through the last 14 years of putting everyone though hell to get control of this sport to turn around and hand it BACK to the people he thought were ruining the sport in the first place. It makes ZERO sense. No, the IRL will be pried out of Tony's COLD DEAD LIFELESS hand and not until then.

He has the biggest attraction in the sport by far, he just got control of all the OW family and he has a pretty decent schedule of events. It just will take time and the economy to improve for things to show whether he has any more good ideas or not. I am not a huge fan of the man, but love him or hate him he is the top guy now. We need to get this series to go forward, and while the TV ratings were not great, they were what everyone in the industry expected. One race down, a season to go....lets get critical later in the year when things have had a chance to play out.

I know I would like to see more marketing muscle employed.....but outside of that I am just going to sit with an open mind...

[SarahFan]

the TV ratings were not great, they were what everyone in the industry expected. ...

there weren't 'not great....they were dismal... as thet have bben the past 1/2 decade...

and you can buy into the IndyPR machine all you like.....but i garauntee there not what the sponsors expected

[Mark in Oshawa]

there weren't 'not great....they were dismal... as thet have bben the past 1/2 decade...

and you can buy into the IndyPR machine all you like.....but i garauntee there not what the sponsors expected

Ken...they are on VS. No one gets GREAT ratings on VS. AS for Dismal, ya...no kidding, were you expecting them to beat NASCAR? VS is only available to about 30% of American homes and most people don't even know if they have it. They got more than a test pattern which hasn't always been said for some sports.

I don't buy into any Indy PR machine. There are a number of members of this forum who will tell you in a heartbeat how critical I can be, but they cannot create magic and big numbers out of what they have. This is going to take time.....and if they screw up, I will be on them like white on rice. Just right now, your negativity is unfounded in the reality of what they are facing.

[garyshell]

there weren't 'not great....they were dismal... as thet have bben the past 1/2 decade...

and you can buy into the IndyPR machine all you like.....but i garauntee there not what the sponsors expected


Do you REALLY give the sponsors that little credit? Unlike you, they knew EXACTLY what to expect.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Do you REALLY give the sponsors that little credit? Unlike you, they knew EXACTLY what to expect.

Gary

want to dig up some old posts Gary... .3 is exactly what I what predicted

TV will be a disaster all season long.....

next weekend pay attention to the commercials during the lights race and qualifying......they will be the same that ran during the race last Sun.... you know why that is?

and isn't it interesting IC hasn't been around attempting to spin the #'s..... telling..... when he does come around ask him about the corrolation between the first race of the year haveing lower TV ratings and the rest of the season following suit.... and how R/S and cable races leading up to the 500 have resulted in lower ratings during the month of May......

[garyshell]

...but i garauntee there not what the sponsors expected


want to dig up some old posts Gary... .3 is exactly what I what predicted

Then why do you think the sponsors would have been expecting more than that? After all this is THEIR livelyhood. Why would you be better at this sort of predicting than they would? As I asked before, why do you give them such little credit?

Me, I think they knew EXACTLY what to expect.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Then why do you think the sponsors would have been expecting more than that? After all this is THEIR livelyhood. Why would you be better at this sort of predicting than they would? As I asked before, why do you give them such little credit?

Me, I think they knew EXACTLY what to expect.

Gary

IRL PR department to Sponsor: 'Hey we just switched to versus, we finnally got unification, better production, new faces, qualifying shows, pre and post race coverage... we got all that but we plan on having the WORST RATINGS IN LEAGUE HISTORY FOR A SEASON OPENER'

sponsor: 'seriosly, the worst ratings ever, that sounds like a perfect fit for us, sign us up'

[Alfa Fan]

want to dig up some old posts Gary... .3 is exactly what I what predicted

TV will be a disaster all season long.....

next weekend pay attention to the commercials during the lights race and qualifying......they will be the same that ran during the race last Sun.... you know why that is?

and isn't it interesting IC hasn't been around attempting to spin the #'s..... telling..... when he does come around ask him about the corrolation between the first race of the year haveing lower TV ratings and the rest of the season following suit.... and how R/S and cable races leading up to the 500 have resulted in lower ratings during the month of May......

Apart from spending your life complaining about it, what do YOU propose to do about it?

[SarahFan]

Then why do you think the sponsors would have been expecting more than that? After all this is THEIR livelyhood. Why would you be better at this sort of predicting than they would? As I asked before, why do you give them such little credit?

Me, I think they knew EXACTLY what to expect.

Gary

and why would i be better.... because I've actually been an AOWR racing fan for the last 2 decades.... I've witnessed what has actually transpired

[NickFalzone]

Ken, this is why you're not in advertising. You troll all you want on this topic, but the fact is that you just don't know what you're talking about. The IRL opener got better ratings than the "avg" regular season NHL game on Versus. It also did about 1/3 less than the typical ESPN broadcast last season. No one was surprised, disappointed, or angry about these ratings except you. And fortunately, you are not the one buying advertising. There are a number of factors why being on Versus will actually be better for sponsors in the long haul, but I'm not going to get into them because this topic is just going in circles. The reality is that the IRL will be on Versus for a long time, and one way or another TG, teams, and crew will be able to pay the bills. They might not be bringing in the profits you think they should be, but the series will continue on its merry way whether you're happy with it or not.

[SarahFan]

Ken, this is why you're not in advertising. You troll all you want on this topic, but the fact is that you just don't know what you're talking about. The IRL opener got better ratings than the "avg" regular season NHL game on Versus. It also did about 1/3 less than the typical ESPN broadcast last season. No one was surprised, disappointed, or angry about these ratings except you. And fortunately, you are not the one buying advertising. There are a number of factors why being on Versus will actually be better for sponsors in the long haul, but I'm not going to get into them because this topic is just going in circles. The reality is that the IRL will be on Versus for a long time, and one way or another TG, teams, and crew will be able to pay the bills. They might not be bringing in the profits you think they should be, but the series will continue on its merry way whether you're happy with it or not.


your entire post gets negated when you state they are making a profit... when in fact Tony has stated the exact opposite....


and seriosly... your attempting to spin a .3 as positive....that is simply rediculous

[garyshell]

Ken, this is why you're not in advertising. You troll all you want on this topic, but the fact is that you just don't know what you're talking about. The IRL opener got better ratings than the "avg" regular season NHL game on Versus. It also did about 1/3 less than the typical ESPN broadcast last season. No one was surprised, disappointed, or angry about these ratings except you. And fortunately, you are not the one buying advertising. There are a number of factors why being on Versus will actually be better for sponsors in the long haul, but I'm not going to get into them because this topic is just going in circles. The reality is that the IRL will be on Versus for a long time, and one way or another TG, teams, and crew will be able to pay the bills. They might not be bringing in the profits you think they should be, but the series will continue on its merry way whether you're happy with it or not.


your entire post gets negated when you state they are making a profit... when in fact Tony has stated the exact opposite....


and seriosly... your attempting to spin a .3 as positive....that is simply rediculous

Ken,

Seriously, you need to read these replies take a walk around the block to calm down, read them again and THEN reply. First he never said they were making a profit, he said and I quote: "They might not be bringing in the profits you think they should be". Second exactly where do you see any spin here? He, myself and others are telling you the advertisers are not as stupid as YOU think they are. They all knew damn well that the numbers would be way down on Versus. No one sold them a bundle of goods. They knew EXACTLY what to expect. Sure you have been a fan, but tell me how does that make you an expert on advertising buys. Talk about spin...

No one is saying .3 is a postive. You however are saying it is a huge unexpected negative. Quite simply it is NOT. It was absolutely expected.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Ken,

Seriously, you need to read these replies take a walk around the block to calm down, read them again and THEN reply. First he never said they were making a profit, he said and I quote: "They might not be bringing in the profits you think they should be". Second exactly where do you see any spin here? He, myself and others are telling you the advertisers are not as stupid as YOU think they are. They all knew damn well that the numbers would be way down on Versus. No one sold them a bundle of goods. They knew EXACTLY what to expect. Sure you have been a fan, but tell me how does that make you an expert on advertising buys. Talk about spin...

No one is saying .3 is a postive. You however are saying it is a huge unexpected negative. Quite simply it is NOT. It was absolutely expected.

Gary

your silly

come on Gary... your suggesting everyone was selling and expecting the lowest rated season opener in series history

sorry Gary thats simply not the way the world works


and to the profit statement... spin it however you need to continue confrontation, but its exactly what he suggested

[NickFalzone]

The first reaction I had when I saw this rating was: Yeah, the ratings on Versus are going to be weak, no big surprise. They're going to be worse than ESPN's. But the coverage is better. And there's more coverage. And maybe over time VS is smarter than staying with ESPN, because on ESPN the series was stagnant, and slowly dying. Maybe the IRL, like the NHL, can start with low ratings on VS but actually grow into something more than it ever was due to the more in-depth coverage and care that Versus seems to be showing. Unlike ESPN, Versus also has shown to desire to do more promos for the series both on it's own channel and on others. Lets give it a season or two before we start making any sky is falling predictions. I will say that if the start of the 2011 season is a .3 on Versus, the deal was probably a failure. But right now, a statement like that would just be irrational.

[NickFalzone]

your silly

come on Gary... your suggesting everyone was selling and expecting the lowest rated season opener in series history

sorry Gary thats simply not the way the world works


and to the profit statement... spin it however you need to continue confrontation, but its exactly what he suggested

Like the ratings, this is a statement that you're taking out of context to suit your agenda. TG was asked about this by Kevin Lee and said it was completely said in jest. Obviously the Hulman George family needs the series, it completely supports their "biggest race in the world". That's even the primary reason for the split, to protect the 500. I do not agree with many of the decisions they've made or continue to make, but to take this statement out of context is misleading at best.

[SarahFan]

The first reaction I had when I saw this rating was: Yeah, the ratings on Versus are going to be weak, no big surprise. They're going to be worse than ESPN's. But the coverage is better. And there's more coverage. And maybe over time VS is smarter than staying with ESPN, because on ESPN the series was stagnant, and slowly dying. Maybe the IRL, like the NHL, can start with low ratings on VS but actually grow into something more than it ever was due to the more in-depth coverage and care that Versus seems to be showing. Unlike ESPN, Versus also has shown to desire to do more promos for the series both on it's own channel and on others. Lets give it a season or two before we start making any sky is falling predictions. I will say that if the start of the 2011 season is a .3 on Versus, the deal was probably a failure. But right now, a statement like that would just be irrational.

thats a fair post Nick... I felt the same way... except the I added the ratings are going to be stagnant (sure there will be a few upticks and few down ticks along the way) simply becuase Vs doesn't garner enough eyeballs... not becuase its in less homes, but becuase its simply not a channel on enough viewers radar screen......

what the season opener confirmed is how many actual fans AOWR has.... and that # is low.... my problem isn't with Vs, they are going to do exactly what was asked of them.... the problem lies with the IRL, and the fact they keep expecting others todo there job for them, and thats harness a larger fan base

[SarahFan]

TG was asked about this by Kevin Lee and said it was completely said in jest. t.

he did?

[garyshell]

your silly

come on Gary... your suggesting everyone was selling and expecting the lowest rated season opener in series history

sorry Gary thats simply not the way the world works


and to the profit statement... spin it however you need to continue confrontation, but its exactly what he suggested

Yes that is EXACTLY what I am saying. Anyone involved as a fan or a professional knew that the ratings on this new channel would be low. I am not sure why YOU had different expectations. The rest of the world had the expectation that the ratings would be very low initially but rise over time based on better and more coverage of the races.

What he suggested? In your eyes maybe.

Gary

[Hoop-98]

fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....

rh

[SarahFan]

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rh

and your rubber and I'm glue and ive gat a .3 to sell you

[garyshell]

fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....fraid so...fraid not....

rh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

Garyhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

[Mark in Oshawa]

Like the ratings, this is a statement that you're taking out of context to suit your agenda. TG was asked about this by Kevin Lee and said it was completely said in jest. Obviously the Hulman George family needs the series, it completely supports their "biggest race in the world". That's even the primary reason for the split, to protect the 500. I do not agree with many of the decisions they've made or continue to make, but to take this statement out of context is misleading at best.

Nick, your previous posts were on the money for sure. As for Tony and the family defending their race with this series, well they made a huge blunder there but that is water under the bridge. Tony is good at making mistakes and having to learn from them, but on THIS one we agree.

VS was their best option. The ratings are no great shakes, the advertisers knew if a doofus like Ken knew it and the series knew what they were getting into.

IT seems there is only one member of this forum that seems to want to make this into an unmitigated disaster, like he has the vision to see the future.

Ken, do us a favour, instead of dazzling us all with your brilliance ( "I predicted the .3!" - Fine Ken, you want a cookie for that?)
why don't you explain to all of us if you were running the IRL last fall and faced with the TV dilemma the series faced, what would you have done?

See, if you are going to be the genius in your own mind you seem to be proclaiming, then tell us the great unwashed how you would fix things.

The way I saw this was the ratings were what EVERYONE was expecting, and the TV product was a LOT better and much more watchable. VS will cross promote this and this programming is important to them. It is in my mind far better to be on a network that is committed to your success, than one that is treating your 17 races that are NOT the Indy 500 like crap so they can keep the Indy 500 rights. The fact is, I dislike ESPN/ABC for what they have done to racing in genreal that I have a hard time watching their product. They are the 500 lb. gorilla in TV sports, but they are by no means the best ones at broadcasting OW racing, or even NASCAR.

VS will have to work for now because they were not getting the proper respect to the program the viewer saw week to week on ESPN. If ESPN wasn't going to pay for that then it is far better to be on VS. It is just that simple. But Ken, Lets here your thoughts on what they should have done. You seem to be bent on knocking the IRL at every turn, and I did that for the last years of CCWS, but unlike you I had points to make that proved that I wasn't being negative for being negative. You on the other hand haven't proven this.....

[SarahFan]

Nick, your previous posts were on the money for sure. As for Tony and the family defending their race with this series, well they made a huge blunder there but that is water under the bridge. Tony is good at making mistakes and having to learn from them, but on THIS one we agree.

VS was their best option. The ratings are no great shakes, the advertisers knew if a doofus like Ken knew it and the series knew what they were getting into.

IT seems there is only one member of this forum that seems to want to make this into an unmitigated disaster, like he has the vision to see the future.

Ken, do us a favour, instead of dazzling us all with your brilliance ( "I predicted the .3!" - Fine Ken, you want a cookie for that?)
why don't you explain to all of us if you were running the IRL last fall and faced with the TV dilemma the series faced, what would you have done?

See, if you are going to be the genius in your own mind you seem to be proclaiming, then tell us the great unwashed how you would fix things.

The way I saw this was the ratings were what EVERYONE was expecting, and the TV product was a LOT better and much more watchable. VS will cross promote this and this programming is important to them. It is in my mind far better to be on a network that is committed to your success, than one that is treating your 17 races that are NOT the Indy 500 like crap so they can keep the Indy 500 rights. The fact is, I dislike ESPN/ABC for what they have done to racing in genreal that I have a hard time watching their product. They are the 500 lb. gorilla in TV sports, but they are by no means the best ones at broadcasting OW racing, or even NASCAR.

VS will have to work for now because they were not getting the proper respect to the program the viewer saw week to week on ESPN. If ESPN wasn't going to pay for that then it is far better to be on VS. It is just that simple. But Ken, Lets here your thoughts on what they should have done. You seem to be bent on knocking the IRL at every turn, and I did that for the last years of CCWS, but unlike you I had points to make that proved that I wasn't being negative for being negative. You on the other hand haven't proven this.....

doofus..?

why so personal Mark?

[F1boat]

I believe a typical Nascar Sprint Cup race is in the 4.0 to 5.0 range.

I remember seeing that a F1 race on a major network got a 1.2 or a 1.4 last year. Most F1 races are on Speed here and a typical Euro round starts at 7:30 AM here on the east coast, 4:30 AM on the west coast so the ratings are considerably lower.

Last year the IRL would get a low 1.x on a network, .6 to 1.0 on ESPN.

Indy 500 before the split got ratings in the 9.x range, now it's in the 4.5 area.

CART before the split had ratings in the 2.0 to 3.0 range that I remember seeing.

I think ALMS is around the same as the IRL last year. The lower tier Nascar series and Rolex series I don't really know.

Thank you very much!

[disko]

ANybody have an idea of what the rate card is for VS. vs. ESPN? ie, cost per spot?

[spiritone]

My,My, i've been away for awhile but not much has changed. The irl's are still trying to justify tg's version of openwheel racing. The tv ratings in the toilet. The cars looking old and tired with no new cars for 2 yrs. By the time tony fiqures his version of openwheel racing sucks, naturally aspirated cars will have been banned.

Looking at the number of new posts on this forum it seems to be going the way of TG vision. Face it, for openwheel racing to return to its glory it needs a massive restructuring. The lust for power and control has ruined what was once a great series.

[beachbum]

My,My, i've been away for awhile but not much has changed. The irl's are still trying to justify tg's version of openwheel racing. The tv ratings in the toilet. The cars looking old and tired with no new cars for 2 yrs. By the time tony fiqures his version of openwheel racing sucks, naturally aspirated cars will have been banned.

Looking at the number of new posts on this forum it seems to be going the way of TG vision. Face it, for openwheel racing to return to its glory it needs a massive restructuring. The lust for power and control has ruined what was once a great series.Well, where is that series that fit your "vision" of open wheel racing today? Gone. You may not like the current IRL (obviously), and it certainly isn't perfect, but it still exists and still puts on races. If you want to "blame" Tony for that, I think he will accept that.

The standard line applies - if you don't like it, don't watch it.

[SarahFan]

The standard line applies - if you don't like it, don't watch it.

the Irony of a .3 combined with that statement is rich indeed

[The instant classic]

My,My, i've been away for awhile but not much has changed. The irl's are still trying to justify tg's version of openwheel racing. The tv ratings in the toilet. The cars looking old and tired with no new cars for 2 yrs. By the time tony fiqures his version of openwheel racing sucks, naturally aspirated cars will have been banned.

Looking at the number of new posts on this forum it seems to be going the way of TG vision. Face it, for openwheel racing to return to its glory it needs a massive restructuring. The lust for power and control has ruined what was once a great series.
i have and will never be a fan of TG, but dont bash him just to put his name into the mud, i do 100% agree with you, but again im not trying to bash on TG

[garyshell]

My,My, i've been away for awhile but not much has changed. The irl's are still trying to justify tg's version of openwheel racing. The tv ratings in the toilet. The cars looking old and tired with no new cars for 2 yrs. By the time tony fiqures his version of openwheel racing sucks, naturally aspirated cars will have been banned.

Looking at the number of new posts on this forum it seems to be going the way of TG vision. Face it, for openwheel racing to return to its glory it needs a massive restructuring. The lust for power and control has ruined what was once a great series.

Ahh yes another monday morning quarterback heard from, yet again telling us how it needs to blown up and started all over again, without a single word about what the resulting new form should be. Do you have a SOLUTION or just another list of problems?

What YOU need to face is you are not offering anything only more whinng.

Gary

[Wilf]

Ahh yes another monday morning quarterback heard from, yet again telling us how it needs to blown up and started all over again, without a single word about what the resulting new form should be. Do you have a SOLUTION or just another list of problems?

What YOU need to face is you are not offering anything only more whinng.

Gary




I just read on Street and Smith's Sports Business Journal:
Crowne Plaza is at least the sixth company that is not planning to extend its title sponsorship of a PGA Tour event. That group of companies represents an estimated $50 million worth of sponsorship rights fees and media commitments.I'm wondering if they are going to change the game of golf? Maybe come up with an exotic looking golf bag?

Doesn't anyone remember the late 80's and early 90's when the Entertainment and Sports Programming Network came into being. There was this thing called NASCAR which was only seen on network television for their biggest race of the year, a race in Michigan and as segments of Wide World of Sports. Ten years later the networks put forward ridiculous bids to obtain the rights televise their races and the promoters are turning fans away because all of their tickets are sold.

The move to Versus provides an opportunity for the sport to improve the presentation of it's product. It provides the network with an opportunity to showcase an exciting sport. If they both do their jobs promoting the product they will see great gains in the future.

New viewers don't have any idea of the age of the chassis design or that there is only one engine manufacturer. Their will see exciting racing; precision racing which is completely different from the bumper cars being offered by NASCAR. Will IndyCars ever beat NASCAR? That would be a stretch, but there is no reason not to try.

What I don't see is an IRL race schedule on the walls of sports bars. Those are relatively inexpensive but would be great reminders since Versus is not a regular channel for those establishments. Surely there is some sponsor who has ties to alcohol, beer, frozen pizza, potato chips or the like and who could benefit from posting a TV schedule and race winner board. Comcast is starting to do their thing. The IRL has to do theirs.

[spiritone]

A solution, oh i see, i'm supposed to come up with a solution. I thought tg had the solution. Wasn't the great merger the solution? I quess not. The merger was just one ego maniac winning a war but not having any idea's what to do after. Could have used the new panoz and had a new updated car, but no, that would have been giving in the enemy.

This whole thing was never about what was best for openwheel racing, it was always about tony. Well he now has control and he sure seem to have a grand plan.

Your right that it still exists, but barely. Moving to versus shows just how far it's fallen. Your right, i was a fan of champ car and your also right about me not watching the present form of the series. Zero interest in a low tech, nascar style series.

What i'm i doing here? Curiosity, i quess. Interesting to see who is left, gary.

[Lee Roy]

Man your really have taken a HUGE gulp of the France Family kool aid. Do you REALLY believe that drivel? The COT is a joke, the only thing that differentiates it from any other spec series is the slight changes in the shape of the nose and the decals they use to TRY to fake the fans into thinking these pieces of junk have grill work and headlights. I had an uncle who drove in NASCAR in the sixties and Nelson would be spinning in his grave if he knew what the other idiot grandson has done to his beloved sport.


Gary

I didn't get into the differenitiation between the cars. I stated that the teams were allowed to build their own cars. Which they do. There must be some kind of advantages to be gained by the teams, or they'd go to a single manufacturer like the IRL has. At one time, most of the chasis in NASCAR were built by one or two companies in NC, so they could go back to that option, if there was nothing to be gained by building their own.

Speaking of "Idiot Grandsons". There are two Grandsons who are now in charge of a racing empire started by their grandfathers. One of them just got 233,000 households to watch his season-opener on an obscure niche cable channel. The other had his season opener network television and had the highest Neilson rating that any race will have this season.

Which one is the "Idiot Grandson"?

[garyshell]

I didn't get into the differenitiation between the cars. I stated that the teams were allowed to build their own cars. Which they do. There must be some kind of advantages to be gained by the teams, or they'd go to a single manufacturer like the IRL has. At one time, most of the chasis in NASCAR were built by one or two companies in NC, so they could go back to that option, if there was nothing to be gained by building their own.

Speaking of "Idiot Grandsons". There are two Grandsons who are now in charge of a racing empire started by their grandfathers. One of them just got 233,000 households to watch his season-opener on an obscure niche cable channel. The other had his season opener network television and had the highest Neilson rating that any race will have this season.

Which one is the "Idiot Grandson"?

So what if the teams can "build there own cars", they have to match the exact same template as everyone else so the end result is still a spec series.

With the number of folks starting to turn away from Nascar I'd say the answer to the "idiot grandsons" question is BOTH. They have both squandered away an inheritance (or are in the process of doing so) that saw them start with a ton of fans and goodwill.

Gary

[garyshell]

A solution, oh i see, i'm supposed to come up with a solution. I thought tg had the solution. Wasn't the great merger the solution? I quess not. The merger was just one ego maniac winning a war but not having any idea's what to do after.

You'll get no argument from me on that point.


Could have used the new panoz and had a new updated car, but no, that would have been giving in the enemy.

Uh huh, right. Tell me how Panoz would have been able to fill the orders for a full field of cars that quickly. Don't forget the Panoz never turned a whell on an oval. I loved that car. But it was not the solution.


This whole thing was never about what was best for openwheel racing, it was always about tony. Well he now has control and he sure seem to have a grand plan.

The problem was King George ALWAYS had control as long as he held the keys to the ONLY date in the series that really mattered to Madison Ave. It just took some of us, me included, a long time to realize how true that was.


Your right that it still exists, but barely. Moving to versus shows just how far it's fallen. Your right, i was a fan of champ car and your also right about me not watching the present form of the series. Zero interest in a low tech, nascar style series.

So the answer was stying with ESPN and ABC and continuing to be treated like crap by being pre-empted by the last round of the Idaho under water tiddly winks finals that went into the third overtime? Yep that really worked well for us didn't it?


What i'm i doing here? Curiosity, i quess. Interesting to see who is left, gary.

What I am doing here is getting to see some of my favorite drivers like Graham, Dario, TK, and others drive in my favorite TYPE of cars on a combination of road, street and oval tracks. It ain't perfect by any means but it sure as hell beats not seeing this type of racing at all.

Gary

[Lee Roy]

So what if the teams can "build there own cars", they have to match the exact same template as everyone else so the end result is still a spec series.


I won't argue that there is less area to work with, but there is still areas where the teams can "build a better mouse-trap". BTW, below the body that has to fit that common template is a chasis that the teams are allowed to build where some variations can occur.

I prefer that to all of the teams getting the car delivered from Dallara in a box marked: "SOME ASSEMBLY REQUIRED. BATTERIES NOT INCLUDED".

[garyshell]

I won't argue that there is less area to work with, but there is still areas where the teams can "build a better mouse-trap". BTW, below the body that has to fit that common template is a chassis that the teams are allowed to build where some variations can occur.

I prefer that to all of the teams getting the car delivered from Dallara in a box marked: "SOME ASSEMBLY REQUIRED. BATTERIES NOT INCLUDED".


Sorry, we just disagree on this. The "some variations" on the COT are a joke. They are so minuscule as to make no real appreciable difference. It's still a spec series no matter how NASCAR tries to paint it. The fans all know this and it is why thousands of them have turned away. If the other idiot grandson had his way he'd have 'em all running a spec motor too.

I have some family who have moved to Tennessee and are big NASCAR fans going to four or five races a year, very active on fan forums etc. We talked about this at length at the last big family function. Their take was that they knew personally of a large number of fans who gave up season tickets to places like Bristol because of the disgust at what young France has been doing to the sport.

Gary

[chuck34]

You know that made me think of something. I am pretty sure it is not an original thought, greater minds than mine have surely thought of this as well.

The big plus with the carbon fiber tubs has always been the safety factor for the drivers. What if the drivers "cocoon" part of the tub were spec and provided by a single supplier, and the teams would be free to build a space frame or monocoque around that stock piece? The carbon fiber (aka expensive bits) would be relegated to ONLY this safety tub. It could open up the innovation in a way that ought not be so expensive. It might bring back some of the privateer types we so long for. I just know there has to be a BIG piece I am missing here so fire away guys punch this full of holes. Trust me, I have no ego in this idea, I am thinking out loud. ...big ol' grin...

Gary

Gary, I do think this is a good idea, and probably workable. It would be cool to see a few different diverging ideas come from this type of thing. I know it would re-raise my level of interest in the sport.

[nigelred5]

Considering the tub dictates much of what is so hideous about the dallara, i'm all for change. From a fan perspective CART in the 90's was in essence what you describe. There were very few cars by season end that weren't fairly highly modified from the original spec. It just takes huge amounts of money few teams have.

[SarahFan]

http://www.indystar.com/article/20090417/SPORTS0107/904170348

^an interesting read

[SarahFan]

this was an interesting thread