Our Survey Says....

"As far as Italian sports fans are concerned, Ferrari made the right choice in signing Fernando Alonso for the future.

Speculation suggests that the Spaniard has inked a deal to move to the Maranello team either in 2011 or (depending on Kimi Raikkonen) even next year.

A survey conducted by La Gazzetta dello Sport claims the 27-year-old is the driver most Italian fans want Ferrari to put into a red car.

Alonso captured nearly 42 percent of the total vote, ahead of Robert Kubica (24.6%), Felipe Massa (16.8%) and Kimi Raikkonen (8.9%).


Of the five drivers cited, Lewis Hamilton netted the lowest percentage of the vote, with 8.2 percent"

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090408104715.shtml

Not too surprised by the Hamilton rating (not that I don't rate him but he is expected to be unpopular among Ferrari fans) but only 8.9% want Kimi!

The latest.....Kimi has gained in popularity...

http://www.gazzetta.it/appsSondaggi/votazioneDispatch.do?method=risultati&idSondaggio=4893

[Knock-on]

They just hate Lewis because he drives for McLaren. If he jumped in the prancing horse, even ioan would be waxing lyrical :laugh:

They just hate Lewis because he drives for McLaren. If he jumped in the prancing horse, even ioan would be waxing lyrical :laugh:

Which is what I said, wasn't it?

It was the Kimi rating that I found surprising...I think.

[EuroTroll]

Seeing Lewis in a Ferrari would be great! If the cars were equal to his talents, of course.. :)

As for Kimi, well... he'd better dig deep soon - or else! :hmph:

[Knock-on]

Seeing Lewis in a Ferrari would be great! If the cars were equal to his talents, of course.. :)

As for Kimi, well... he'd better dig deep soon - or else! :hmph:

With respect to Tamb, I would prefer him to stay where he is :laugh:

[Tazio]

I'll go with the one that one a plurality, and the runner up! :up:

[ioan]

They just hate Lewis because he drives for McLaren. If he jumped in the prancing horse, even ioan would be waxing lyrical :laugh:

I don't support arrogant liars.
I wouldn't appreciate him even if he was my personal chauffeur.

[tintop]

Why isn't Massa rated higher, he drove a great campaign last year?

[CNR]

Why isn't Massa rated higher, he drove a great campaign last year?

it may be the way the question was asked
Ferrari, quale sarebbe la coppia di piloti ideale?
(min: 2 - max: 2)

Ferrari, which would be the perfect pair of pilots?
(min: 2 - max: 2)
http://www.gazzetta.it/appsSondaggi/votazioneDispatch.do?method=risultati&idSondaggio=4893

you can vote at
http://www.gazzetta.it/appsSondaggi/pages/gazzetta/d_4893.jsp

[mstillhere]

"As far as Italian sports fans are concerned, Ferrari made the right choice in signing Fernando Alonso for the future.

Speculation suggests that the Spaniard has inked a deal to move to the Maranello team either in 2011 or (depending on Kimi Raikkonen) even next year.

A survey conducted by La Gazzetta dello Sport claims the 27-year-old is the driver most Italian fans want Ferrari to put into a red car.

Alonso captured nearly 42 percent of the total vote, ahead of Robert Kubica (24.6%), Felipe Massa (16.8%) and Kimi Raikkonen (8.9%).


Of the five drivers cited, Lewis Hamilton netted the lowest percentage of the vote, with 8.2 percent"

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090408104715.shtml

Not too surprised by the Hamilton rating (not that I don't rate him but he is expected to be unpopular among Ferrari fans) but only 8.9% want Kimi!

I just voted for Alonso. I think is one the most complete if not the most complete driver right now. I was very surprised to see him last year transforming his Renault into a decent car showing a great sense of humility and hard work. Even this year he is not driving the best car on the track but he's able to developpe it continously. He is not afraid of speaking up his mind, drives well under pressure (ask MS) he is not afraid of the rain either (Massa instead...). So, it seems a logical marriage waiting to happen: Ferrari looking for better drivers ( as I see it ) and Alsonso looking for a winning team.

[ioan]

I just voted for Alonso. I think is one the most complete if not the most complete driver right now. I was very surprised to see him last year transforming his Renault into a decent car showing a great sense of humility and hard work. Even this year he is not driving the best car on the track but he's able to developpe it continously. He is not afraid of speaking up his mind, drives well under pressure (ask MS) he is not afraid of the rain either (Massa instead...). So, it seems a logical marriage waiting to happen: Ferrari looking for better drivers ( as I see it ) and Alsonso looking for a winning team.

Hold it, hold it, car developpment is down to engineers not drivers. Let's stop this stupidity about how drivers are developing a car.
Especially now that in season testing is banned, the drivers have even less to say about development. The engineers will study the data from practice sessions and race and decide how to develop the car.
The advancement of technology got to a point where the driver will be only asked if he wants an under- or oversteering car when development is decided, all the rest wil be down to engineers.

The only part when drivers will have a say is set-up and this is more related to track conditions than to car development.

So, let's put to rest this myth about drivers developing the car.

[tintop]

Hold it, hold it, car developpment is down to engineers not drivers. Let's stop this stupidity about how drivers are developing a car.
Especially now that in season testing is banned, the drivers have even less to say about development. The engineers will study the data from practice sessions and race and decide how to develop the car.
The advancement of technology got to a point where the driver will be only asked if he wants an under- or oversteering car when development is decided, all the rest wil be down to engineers.

The only part when drivers will have a say is set-up and this is more related to track conditions than to car development.

So, let's put to rest this myth about drivers developing the car.

Effective driver input will always be an important factor in car development, especially with new regulations and fewer testing stints, you should know, you had one of the best in history @ Ferrari.

[jens]

Main driver input comes from testing as they are not engineers. With in-season testing ban drivers will have less input in that so-called car development than before. I actually think a few notions have been mixed up here. Drivers role is bigger in setup finding (something Alonso is definetely very good at - can't remember him really struggling with the car) trying to maximize the potential of an existing racing car, not so much in car/chassis design itself, which is done in the factory before the car hits the track.

About the poll. I'm a bit surprised and disappointed that Vettel wasn't involved among options - he's another one, who has been associated with Ferrari and would have been interesting to see Tifosi's opinions about him.

About Alonso - I wonder, how much do the "definite 2011/maybe 2010 contract" stories hold water. He has been associated with Ferrari for more than a year by now and all the stories linking those two sides with each other are becoming a bit... worn. :)

[tintop]

About the poll. I'm a bit surprised and disappointed that Vettel wasn't involved among options - he's another one, who has been associated with Ferrari and would have been interesting to see Tifosi's opinions about him.

Agreed, he would be my top choice. Could be an interesting season for him with diffuser equalization, unfortunately he has had some bad luck this season, but he is at least at par with the former lead teams.

[ioan]

Effective driver input will always be an important factor in car development, especially with new regulations and fewer testing stints, you should know, you had one of the best in history @ Ferrari.

Well exactly because "especially with new regulations and fewer testing stints" the driver input will be even less important compared to the data collected by the engineers through the array of sensors installed on the cars.

[Knock-on]

Well exactly because "especially with new regulations and fewer testing stints" the driver input will be even less important compared to the data collected by the engineers through the array of sensors installed on the cars.

I would have thought that because the drivers have less time in the car, they obviously will not be able to offer as much feedback so the development teams will rely more on the data from technology.

Driver input is still important otherwise why have a test driver? The engineers can put together a great car on paper but if a driver cannot get the maximum out of it, what's the point? This is where they come into their own but every car is a combination of scientific approach and emotional feedback.

The driver will always be important in two areas - maximising the potential of the car, obviously, and in feedback as to how the changes to the car work from the drivers point of view, something no CFD or mega-computer will ever achieve.

'Tis said that with one of the current Ferrari drivers, when he's asked what the car is doing, he has to keep been asked step by step as he doesn't volunteer the feedback as readily as the engineers would wish or in an order they can work with.

If driver feedback wasn't important, the engineers wouldn't want to know what he said, but the very fact that they have t coax useful info from him says, to me, that driver feedback is still important.

It also says, to me, something about an overpaid, over-rated lazy attitude, and looking at the survey results it seems that quite a few of my fellow Tifosians agree with me.

This is where they come into their own but every car is a combination of scientific approach and emotional feedback.

100% Agree.

(Somebody should put a plaque up on this thread this occasion!

"Here, In The Year Of Our Lord 2008,
Against All Odds and Expectations,
Knock-On & Tamburello did Share some Common Ground"

Although I suspect this latest union won't outlast FOTA)

[ioan]

Driver input is still important otherwise why have a test driver?

Good question, why have a test driver when testing is banned in season and the race driver do all the pre-season testing anyway?!

So what's your answer?

[tintop]

Well exactly because "especially with new regulations and fewer testing stints" the driver input will be even less important compared to the data collected by the engineers through the array of sensors installed on the cars.

Disagree, although all input is reduced due to lack of testing both human and otherwise, the increased variability in car design and performance make having at least one good feedback racer essential.

It is obviously true that automated sensory feedback has become a larger element of auto sport R&D over the past decade, but as telemetry systems become standardized and competitive advantages become thinner and thinner, the incremental benefit of a strong feedback driver become all the more important especially when sea changes like 2009 occur.

[ioan]

Nowadays a car is designed and built together with 0% input from drivers.
Everything, including lap times, are known with a very good precision before the driver first steps into the car.

IMO 90% of the development direction is given by the data collected by electronic means and only 10% is given by the drivers function of their own driving preferences (oversteer or understeer, more or less downforce, more or less fuel etc).

Given these percentages I would say that even if the driver doesn't give excellent feedback or even none at all the car will be developed in the direction decided by the engineers based on telemetry data.

[markabilly]

I think it would be great to see Lewis at Ferrari...they are well prepared for him with Rob Smedley.."be cool Hamster baby, we will find you some kleenex to dry your eyes cause massa beat you out of pole, :bigcry:

and
No I do not think Luca is going to let you adjust the tire pressure in Massa's rear tires before the race starts....sorry...okay, i will get you some more tissues......please don't say you are going to quit......look now, come on it will be all right........Now, you have to stop hiding Massa's helmet right before the race....I know Pop may have done it, but you must make him tell us where it is.......you will make Massa start crying and we are about to run out of Kleenx tissues......." :bigcry:

[wedge]

Good question, why have a test driver when testing is banned in season and the race driver do all the pre-season testing anyway?!

So what's your answer?

Testing is a different mentality.

Test drivers are generally average drivers who can do consistant lap times for data collection, technical feedback and comparisons.

Race drivers are more inclined to push to the limits.


Nowadays a car is designed and built together with 0% input from drivers.
Everything, including lap times, are known with a very good precision before the driver first steps into the car.

IMO 90% of the development direction is given by the data collected by electronic means and only 10% is given by the drivers function of their own driving preferences (oversteer or understeer, more or less downforce, more or less fuel etc).

Given these percentages I would say that even if the driver doesn't give excellent feedback or even none at all the car will be developed in the direction decided by the engineers based on telemetry data.

Really depends on the development program. Some engineers are quite open to driver feedback whereas others who will want it done their way.

If the car lacks downforce then naturally you leave to the aero guys to come up with something. If the car is quick but difficult to set up then its a trade off between the engineers and driver.

[JustRace]

Look at the Brawn cars - no out of season testing, hit the track for the first time and were fast, fast, fast. Must have been 99% engineer and computer design.

Drivers make their mark on race weekend in how they deal with the current track conditions and how they race.

[tintop]

Nowadays a car is designed and built together with 0% input from drivers.
Everything, including lap times, are known with a very good precision before the driver first steps into the car.

IMO 90% of the development direction is given by the data collected by electronic means and only 10% is given by the drivers function of their own driving preferences (oversteer or understeer, more or less downforce, more or less fuel etc).

Given these percentages I would say that even if the driver doesn't give excellent feedback or even none at all the car will be developed in the direction decided by the engineers based on telemetry data.

It would actually be a very interesting question to ask a team principal - both the absolute level of importance of driver feedback in selecting a driver and if there is any delta in that relative importance this season due to all of the changes.

100% Agree.

(Somebody should put a plaque up on this thread this occasion!

"Here, In The Year Of Our Lord 2008,
Against All Odds and Expectations,
Knock-On & Tamburello did Share some Common Ground"

Although I suspect this latest union won't outlast FOTA)

Ooops...wrong year. Excuse me while I bludgeon the engraver.

[wedge]

Look at the Brawn cars - no out of season testing, hit the track for the first time and were fast, fast, fast. Must have been 99% engineer and computer design.

Drivers make their mark on race weekend in how they deal with the current track conditions and how they race.

When you get radical rule changes then there's more onus on the designers. You have the big boys like Ferrari and McLaren who get it wrong to some extent. What works on simulations doesn't necessarily work in the real world.

When it comes to development over a season driver feedback becomes more important. Both Rubens and Button have said the car understeers a bit too much.

[ioan]

When it comes to development over a season driver feedback becomes more important. Both Rubens and Button have said the car understeers a bit too much.

And you think that the engineers don't know that if Rubens and Jenson don't say it?!

[Big Ben]

Good question, why have a test driver when testing is banned in season and the race driver do all the pre-season testing anyway?!

So what's your answer?

I think they keep them just in case any of their drivers plays a tough tennis match for example.

[ioan]

I think they keep them just in case any of their drivers plays a tough tennis match for example.

I think that's the only explanation. That's also why they are rather called 3rd divers and not test drivers.

[wedge]

And you think that the engineers don't know that if Rubens and Jenson don't say it?!

Driver input needs to correlate with the data otherwise how are you going to learn?

[ioan]

Driver input needs to correlate with the data otherwise how are you going to learn?

I'd rather trust an array of sensors that are way more sensitive than any driver's bum out there.

The only part where there is some need for correlation in F1 nowadays is between CFD simulation data, wind tunnel data and track data, none of them has to be provided by a driver.

The driver only has to say what set-up he prefers for a certain car on a certain track in certain conditions.

[Jag_Warrior]

I don't support arrogant liars.
I wouldn't appreciate him even if he was my personal chauffeur.

Michael Schumacher has retired. Can't you just leave him alone?

[ioan]

Michael Schumacher has retired. Can't you just leave him alone?

Sadly enough he retired. Anyway I was referring to Lewy boy, in case you didn't get it. :p :

[Garry Walker]

"As far as Italian sports fans are concerned, Ferrari made the right choice in signing Fernando Alonso for the future.

Speculation suggests that the Spaniard has inked a deal to move to the Maranello team either in 2011 or (depending on Kimi Raikkonen) even next year.

A survey conducted by La Gazzetta dello Sport claims the 27-year-old is the driver most Italian fans want Ferrari to put into a red car.

Alonso captured nearly 42 percent of the total vote, ahead of Robert Kubica (24.6%), Felipe Massa (16.8%) and Kimi Raikkonen (8.9%).


Of the five drivers cited, Lewis Hamilton netted the lowest percentage of the vote, with 8.2 percent"

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090408104715.shtml

Not too surprised by the Hamilton rating (not that I don't rate him but he is expected to be unpopular among Ferrari fans) but only 8.9% want Kimi!
Italian fans again proving that most of them have no understanding of F1 and following the typical Ferrari culture - blame the driver, the car is innocent.
Idiots.

[DexDexter]

Italian fans again proving that most of them have no understanding of F1 and following the typical Ferrari culture - blame the driver, the car is innocent.
Idiots.

One win for Kimi and suddenly they like him again, that's the way they are.

[Giuseppe F1]

Im surprised Vettel isnt on that Gazzeta list?

[Knock-on]

Nowadays a car is designed and built together with 0% input from drivers.
Everything, including lap times, are known with a very good precision before the driver first steps into the car.

OK, so you're saying that the drivers have zero input in car development. Yes?


IMO 90% of the development direction is given by the data collected by electronic means and only 10% is given by the drivers function of their own driving preferences (oversteer or understeer, more or less downforce, more or less fuel etc).

OK, so you're saying that the drivers provide 10% input into car development. Yes?


Given these percentages

Which appear to confilct but I'm sure you will apply some ioan logic to resolve the situation ;)


I would say that even if the driver doesn't give excellent feedback or even none at all the car will be developed in the direction decided by the engineers based on telemetry data.

Is anyone argueing this point? Most of the development is lead by telemetery data, modelling and experience from the engineers. However, direction is also influenced by driver feedback and style which in your opinion, seems to be either 0% or 10%?

I don't think many people will argue that Schumacher for example had a car suited to purely his driving style and preference. At Ferrari during the time, I suggest that his requirements were the basic principal for car development and the engineers and designers designed a car around him.

[ioan]

Nowadays a car is designed and built together with 0% input from drivers.
Everything, including lap times, are known with a very good precision before the driver first steps into the car.

OK, so you're saying that the drivers have zero input in car development. Yes?

No.It's just that English is a bit tough for you.

Buy yourself a dictionary and check out the difference between design and development! :p :

Maybe next time I'll make some colored drawings specially for you! :D

[ioan]

Design and development go together as you can not design something unless you have established the criteria on which to base your brief.

The criteria on which the design is based are the technical regulations.
On track development can only start once the design has been finished and can roll on it's own, only than the drivers can have something to say about it.
They often don't even see the new car until it's all put together.

Suggesting that drivers have an input into the design of a new F1 car, more than the forming of the seat on their bums, is foolish at least.

[Knock-on]

No.It's just that English is a bit tough for you.

Buy yourself a dictionary and check out the difference between design and development! :p :

Maybe next time I'll make some colored drawings specially for you! :D

:rolleyes:


Hold it, hold it, car developpment is down to engineers not drivers. Let's stop this stupidity about how drivers are developing a car.
Especially now that in season testing is banned, the drivers have even less to say about development. The engineers will study the data from practice sessions and race and decide how to develop the car.
The advancement of technology got to a point where the driver will be only asked if he wants an under- or oversteering car when development is decided, all the rest wil be down to engineers.

The only part when drivers will have a say is set-up and this is more related to track conditions than to car development.

So, let's put to rest this myth about drivers developing the car.

It seems it is you that is confused, yet again. ;)

Stop turning direction so suddenly otherwise you'll get confused and dizzy :D

Please see Henners post for all you need to know. Can't be bothered argueing yet again with you over something so fundementally black and white.

[ioan]

It seems it is you that is confused, yet again. ;)

As I told you, buy a dictionary. I would be ashamed if a stranger would know my own language better than me.

Or is it that you just can't take it when you're wrong?

IMO it's both. :p :

[Knock-on]

I think we've all been on this forum long enough to draw our own conclusions on this one :p :

:laugh:

Something like this....

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1892_mad_smiley_banging_head_against_a_brick_wall. gif

[SGWilko]

:laugh:

Something like this....

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1892_mad_smiley_banging_head_against_a_brick_wall. gif

Where's Les Dennis when you need him?

[ioan]

:laugh:

Something like this....

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1892_mad_smiley_banging_head_against_a_brick_wall. gif

Keep practicing, it might help you get it to work one day! :p :

[ioan]

I think we've all been on this forum long enough to draw our own conclusions on this one :p :

We? Who's we? Certainly not you. :p :

[Knock-on]

We? Who's we? Certainly not you. :p :

Stop trolling and wind it in ioan. Pino's already having PMT :laugh:

[SGWilko]

Stop trolling and wind it in ioan. Pino's already having PMT :laugh:

Hmmm, talking of Trolls, anyone remember the advert on the telly with a family of Trolls, one of which was called Quentin. What was the product being advertised? It's bugging me now.....

[ArrowsFA1]

What was the product being advertised? It's bugging me now.....
No idea :crazy: but you might find help here (http://www.thetrollfamily.com/) :p :

[ioan]

I've made my point, I'm not getting into that sorry ioan.... ;)

I see, you've got no point, so you chicken out.