BrawnGP Melbourne exhausts illegal?

[Ranger]

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/people/315381/brawn-gp-f1-bodywork-legality-questioned.html


A small scandal is brewing about the legality of the winning Brawn GP cars at the Australian Grand Prix. It is claimed that the cars ran throughout the weekend with its exhaust pipes protruding from the bodywork by 10cm, which could be outside the regulations. The Brawn bodywork was changed for the Malaysian Grand Prix suggesting that the question of legality may have been raised during the weekend.

Interesting, that site details pictures and the specific regulations which they could have been in breach of.

[Sonic]

Please can we gather up every copy of this magazine and burn them! F1 has had quite enough scandal. :eek:

[Tazio]

Just another masterful piece of strategy by brawn.
While everybody was looking at Ferrari in this arena
He got it passed OZ scrutineering, and changed it for
race two.
Too late now I say

[Mark]

Too late now I say

Yes!! It passed scrutineering and no teams objected at the time, so, too late I say!

[Garry Walker]

This started from spanish press, its as credible as used toiletpaper

[Ranger]

Just another masterful piece of strategy by brawn.
While everybody was looking at Ferrari in this arena
He got it passed OZ scrutineering, and changed it for
race two.
Too late now I say

Breaking a rule that has no grey zone (unlike diffuser issue) is not strategic, it is plain illegal.

If they are found to have broken that rule then they should be penalised.

[Mark]

Breaking a rule that has no grey zone (unlike diffuser issue) is not strategic, it is plain illegal.

If they are found to have broken that rule then they should be penalised.

If the cars were illegal they should have been declared illegal at the time. It's too late to change now.

[cosmicpanda]

how on earth would the scrutineers miss something that obvious?

[Valve Bounce]

Has this been reported in The Bild?

[Ranger]

If the cars were illegal they should have been declared illegal at the time. It's too late to change now.

Not at all.

The 1976 British Grand Prix set the precedent when Hunt was DQ'd several months after the race.

IF... and thats a big if... it can be proven without doubt that a car was racing illegally even after scrutineering, then it can and should be penalised.

It's only fair.

[Knock-on]

What a load of s**te :laugh:

The 1st photo looks like it was at the Brawn launch. That car has NEVER turned a wheel on a track by the looks of it :D

I also cannot tell what the length of that pipe is, whether it's 75mm, 100mm or 150mm.

Dubious journalism from a non-entity site :p :

[Tazio]

Not at all.

The 1976 British Grand Prix set the precedent when Hunt was DQ'd several months after the race.

IF... and thats a big if... it can be proven without doubt that a car was racing illegally even after scrutineering, then it can and should be penalised.

It's only fair.If that's the case every team that used Michelins in 2003 should have lost all points up until Monza!
That is when they were challenged!
Sig bet says it ain't gonna happen!

Plus Ferrari protested Hunt during the race or immediately afterwards!

[wedge]

What a load of s**te :laugh:

The 1st photo looks like it was at the Brawn launch. That car has NEVER turned a wheel on a track by the looks of it :D

I also cannot tell what the length of that pipe is, whether it's 75mm, 100mm or 150mm.

Dubious journalism from a non-entity site :p :


It's an industry bible. Very good magazine. Recently did thorough investigation into the spate of blow-overs in LMP sportcars.

[ioan]

Well, it's nice to see how objective F1 fans are, not.

When it was Ferrari having these kind of exhausts, during the pre-season testing, they were crucified and called cheaters.

Hypocrisy has no limits around here!

[SGWilko]

Well, it's nice to see how objective F1 fans are, not.

When it was Ferrari having these kind of exhausts, during the pre-season testing, they were crucified and called cheaters.

Hypocrisy has no limits around here!

Deja Vu, surely?

[MrJan]

Well, it's nice to see how objective F1 fans are, not.

When it was Ferrari having these kind of exhausts, during the pre-season testing, they were crucified and called cheaters.

Hypocrisy has no limits around here!

:laugh: But irony is always lost :D

Personally think it's clever to have changed it, very Ross Brawn and the sort of stretching/warping of rules that he seems to have done so often.

[ioan]

:laugh: But irony is always lost :D

Personally think it's clever to have changed it, very Ross Brawn and the sort of stretching/warping of rules that he seems to have done so often.

So if it's done by something else than Ferrari is "stretching/warping of rules", if its ferrari it's cheating even if it wasn't even a GP week end?

As I said, hypocrisy is at home with most English F1 fans!

[Dave B]

Oh lord we've been over this a hundred times. Show me where anybody was saying it was illegal to use those exhausts in testing. We all said the same thing: so long as Ferrari didn't use them in Melbourne (and they didn't), it didn't matter. Change the record.

[big_sw2000]

Sorry to post this picture again, i posted it in the defusa thread.
Clearly shows the rear of the car probley during testing. You all make your minds up, but i say exhausts legal.
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=95968&f=6

[F1boat]

This started from spanish press, its as credible as used toiletpaper

Well said :)

[big_sw2000]

Bottom of page 3 photo across, rear of the brawn car in Australia Friday practise. Make your minds up
http://www.formula1.com/gallery/race/2009/805/tv_images/friday.html

[chuck34]

Bottom of page 3 photo across, rear of the brawn car in Australia Friday practise. Make your minds up
http://www.formula1.com/gallery/race/2009/805/tv_images/friday.html

Maybe I'm missing it, but from the pics you posted it doesn't look like the same arrangement as the pics that started this thread. Maybe those were only used in testing like the Ferrari's?

[big_sw2000]

Maybe I'm missing it, but from the pics you posted it doesn't look like the same arrangement as the pics that started this thread. Maybe those were only used in testing like the Ferrari's?
Yeah totaly agree with you, im hoping and thinking it was legal in Australia

[ioan]

Oh lord we've been over this a hundred times. Show me where anybody was saying it was illegal to use those exhausts in testing. We all said the same thing: so long as Ferrari didn't use them in Melbourne (and they didn't), it didn't matter. Change the record.

Go find that thread and see for yourself what trumper posted while knockie was supporting him.

[Garry Walker]

Well, it's nice to see how objective F1 fans are, not.

When it was Ferrari having these kind of exhausts, during the pre-season testing, they were crucified and called cheaters.

Hypocrisy has no limits around here!

But its different for Ferrari!!! Because...well it is! Ferrari are the ones who have been caught with 780 pages of data of another car and lying to stewards, they must be cheating every other time too.wait....

[chuck34]

Yeah totaly agree with you, im hoping and thinking it was legal in Australia

Agreed. I thought you were on the other side, thus my confusion. But I think from those pics the exhaust is flush with the bodywork.

It's a non-issue, just as Ferrari's "test" configuration is now a non-issue, just as McLaren using '08 spec wings in "test" configuration is/was a non-issue (not that anyone ever thought that, but that's my point).

[big_sw2000]

Agreed. I thought you were on the other side, thus my confusion. But I think from those pics the exhaust is flush with the bodywork.

It's a non-issue, just as Ferrari's "test" configuration is now a non-issue, just as McLaren using '08 spec wings in "test" configuration is/was a non-issue (not that anyone ever thought that, but that's my point).
Did you see the link bottom of the 1st page, much clearer picture from testing

[big_sw2000]

This picture deffently shows exhaust sticking up.
Lets hope its withhin the limit and legal
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/butt_braw_melb_2009-6.jpg

[big_sw2000]

But not on this picture http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/butt_braw_melb_20092.jpg

[Pille]

This doesn't look like 10cm: http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/photolarge.php?photoID=120659&catID=3702

[schmenke]

Well, it's nice to see how objective F1 fans are, not.

When it was Ferrari having these kind of exhausts, during the pre-season testing, they were crucified and called cheaters.

Hypocrisy has no limits around here!

Cripes, ioan, can't we discuss one topic without your usual disparage towards other (non-Ferrari-fan) forum members? Yet again, you’ve managed to twist a reasonable thread into an “us-and-them” argument.
It’s this kind of degradation of threads that makes my visits to this forum less frequent :down:

[Valve Bounce]

Is this thread a beat up or what??

[Valve Bounce]

This picture deffently shows exhaust sticking up.
Lets hope its withhin the limit and legal
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/butt_braw_melb_2009-6.jpg

All I can see is a VIRGIN :)

[CNR]

THIS IS B S

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090326082511.shtml
http://www.f1-live.com/f1/photos/imgactu/09/brawn-melbourne-z-01_260309.jpg
look at the top of this if they did it must have been after the car passed scutineering

[AJP]

Cripes, ioan, can't we discuss one topic without your usual disparage towards other (non-Ferrari-fan) forum members? Yet again, you’ve managed to twist a reasonable thread into an “us-and-them” argument.
It’s this kind of degradation of threads that makes my visits to this forum less frequent :down:

Agreed.

[chuck34]

Wow this is getting confusing. Some pictures it looks ok, others not so much. Thunderbolt's pic looks like them pushing the car to scutineering. If so maybe they change exhaust after? That would be damning. I just really can't say. What we need to find is a good pic from the race itself, maybe on the grid. I'll stay out of it now.

[Valve Bounce]

Wow this is getting confusing. Some pictures it looks ok, others not so much. Thunderbolt's pic looks like them pushing the car to scutineering. If so maybe they change exhaust after? That would be damning. I just really can't say. What we need to find is a good pic from the race itself, maybe on the grid. I'll stay out of it now.

What Brawn did with the exhausts was Trulli wicked. They put an extension on the exhaust that would slowly burn away when the bunsen lit up. So!! by the time the race was over, the illegal exhaust extension simply did not exist. Now!! why didn't Ferrari think of that first? Another Ferrari brain fade, I guess!!

[555-04Q2]

What? Brawn cheating? An F1 team pushing the boundaries and cheating? Throw them all to the lions :p : and while were at it, add Bernie to the fodder!!!

[wmcot]

All I can see is a VIRGIN :)

The ONLY place you'll see a virgin in pitlane is plastered on the side of a car! ;)

[MrJan]

So if it's done by something else than Ferrari is "stretching/warping of rules", if its ferrari it's cheating even if it wasn't even a GP week end?

As I said, hypocrisy is at home with most English F1 fans!

You just read what you want to don't you. I never said anything about Ferrari and their exhausts.

When Brawn was at Ferrari he used to warp the rules there too though, always stretching the FIA definitions of things and interpreting things in a very clever way.

I'm getting really tired of how you think that everything I say is a pro-McLaren/anti-Ferrari rant.

[CNR]

would it be the covers over the exhausthttp://www.brawngp.com/gallery/55.jpg

[Dave B]

Cripes, ioan, can't we discuss one topic without your usual disparage towards other (non-Ferrari-fan) forum members? Yet again, you’ve managed to twist a reasonable thread into an “us-and-them” argument.
It’s this kind of degradation of threads that makes my visits to this forum less frequent :down:

+1.

It's becoming impossible to have a reasoned debate with certain posters, who laugh their backside off at one team's antics and yet the second there's any criticism of their own favourites run off crying or screaming foul. It's not funny any more, and it's almost time my ignore list was populated once more.

[big_sw2000]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/butt_braw_melb_2009-6.jpg

[Valve Bounce]

The ONLY place you'll see a virgin in pitlane is plastered on the side of a car! ;)

Hey wait!! Let's not go that far - we might get banned. :(

[ioan]

Cripes, ioan, can't we discuss one topic without your usual disparage towards other (non-Ferrari-fan) forum members? Yet again, you’ve managed to twist a reasonable thread into an “us-and-them” argument.
It’s this kind of degradation of threads that makes my visits to this forum less frequent :down:

Don't like the truth?!

[ioan]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/butt_braw_melb_2009-6.jpg

Oups! Looks like the pipe isn't covered on that pic taken during race week end.

[big_sw2000]

I agree, its sticking out.
NOT AS MUCH AS THE FERRARI THOUGH in testing. :D
So hopefully its legal. What is the ruling on the pipe How much is it allowed to stick out by.

[Knock-on]

Go find that thread and see for yourself what trumper posted while knockie was supporting him.

Please provide a link :)

[555-04Q2]

+1.

It's becoming impossible to have a reasoned debate with certain posters, who laugh their backside off at one team's antics and yet the second there's any criticism of their own favourites run off crying or screaming foul. It's not funny any more, and it's almost time my ignore list was populated once more.

To be fair to ioan and other people on this forum who support Ferrari, they have all taken a lot of flack over the last few years from people on this forum. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, people come out and complain about the reversed situation. Fair is fair mate...payback is a bitch.

[MrJan]

it's almost time my ignore list was populated once more.

BUt then it gets so boring :p :

[Dave B]

To be fair to ioan and other people on this forum who support Ferrari, they have all taken a lot of flack over the last few years from people on this forum. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, people come out and complain about the reversed situation. Fair is fair mate...payback is a bitch.
I'm not remotely bothered about that. I'm a Hamilton fan, I make no secret of that. I can well understand why some people find it a good thing that he's languishing on 1 point with his reputation well and truly dented. I can understand the hatred for McLaren and the joy which is to be found in their disarray and poor pace. I'll quite happily debate these subjects with any intelligent poster.

What I absolutely can not tolerate is the blatent hypocricy of people who throw mud around then run away crying when anybody dares argue back, or who post blantent untruths and refuse when challenged to provide any evidence of same.

[big_sw2000]

I enjoy reading this fighting talk. :o hplease:
Personally your all as childish as F1 team managers. And the FIA

[Stram_man]

I still believe the powers that be are "supportive" of this late minute F1 entrant. It bolstered an otherwise depleted F1 grid.
Maybe once the Brawn team has enough sponsors on board they may be treated in a manner akin to the other teams.
Same applies to the Toyota team. Given Toyota has made strong comments on what happens this year if they are not improving.
But hey thats just my conspiracy theory.

[555-04Q2]

I'm not remotely bothered about that. I'm a Hamilton fan, I make no secret of that. I can well understand why some people find it a good thing that he's languishing on 1 point with his reputation well and truly dented. I can understand the hatred for McLaren and the joy which is to be found in their disarray and poor pace. I'll quite happily debate these subjects with any intelligent poster.

What I absolutely can not tolerate is the blatent hypocricy of people who throw mud around then run away crying when anybody dares argue back, or who post blantent untruths and refuse when challenged to provide any evidence of same.

I hear you Dave. Frankly, I'm also getting a bit tired of the same old sh!t day in and day out. Thats why I drink :p :

[SGWilko]

Thats why I drink :p :

oh yesh, meeeeeeeeeeeeee tooooooo. Hic!

[555-04Q2]

:laugh:

What I absolutely can not tolerate is the blatent hypocricy of people who throw mud around then run away crying when anybody dares argue back, or who post blantent untruths and refuse when challenged to provide any evidence of same.

Sounds like the FIA charge sheet against your pals in Woking.

[ioan]

What I absolutely can not tolerate is the blatent hypocricy of people who throw mud around then run away crying when anybody dares argue back, or who post blantent untruths and refuse when challenged to provide any evidence of same.

I think you got the things the wrong way around. Maybe a look in the mirror will help.

[schmenke]

Don't like the truth?!

:?:

I’m not sure what you mean ioan, or perhaps you missed my point entirely (honestly, I am neither a Ferrari fan, or a McLaren fan… I’m (was) a fan of the sport, so your attempts at trying to rationalize your interpretation of the truth is wasted on me).

You seem to seek any opportunity, no matter how meager, to manipulate a discussion into an anti-Ferrari thread, perpetuating your incessant condemnation and condescension of other forum members.

I would suggest you spend your time on Ferrari fan-club forums instead, but that would obviously not be enjoyable for you.

[wmcot]

Don't read too much into the opinions on this forum. It's kind of like a political campaign where both sides are making statements that are way off in opposite directions from each other.

The trick in both cases is to throw out the extremes and pay attention to what the middle-ground is saying.

[MrJan]

I’m not sure what you mean ioan, or perhaps you missed my point entirely (honestly, I am neither a Ferrari fan, or a McLaren fan… I’m (was) a fan of the sport, so your attempts at trying to rationalize your interpretation of the truth is wasted on me).

You seem to seek any opportunity, no matter how meager, to manipulate a discussion into an anti-Ferrari thread, perpetuating your incessant condemnation and condescension of other forum members.

Don't worry about it Schmenke, Ioan seems to think that if you aren't with him then you're against him. Similarly if you aren't a Ferrari fan you obviously hate them :D

[Dave B]

I'm going to take a little self-imposed Easter break and see if things calm down. See you all in a week - probably :wave:

[SGWilko]

I'm going to take a little self-imposed Easter break and see if things calm down. See you all in a week - probably :wave:

Have a good one Dave. Be good.... ;) :wave:

[F1boat]

Don't worry about it Schmenke, Ioan seems to think that if you aren't with him then you're against him. Similarly if you aren't a Ferrari fan you obviously hate them :D

And I am a Ferrari fan, who likes Brawn GP and Renault - I guess that I am a freak ;)

[ioan]

You seem to seek any opportunity, no matter how meager, to manipulate a discussion into an anti-Ferrari thread, perpetuating your incessant condemnation and condescension of other forum members.

You are completely wrong.

Why do you feel the urge to analyze my behavior instead of keeping to the topic of the tread? You know what? You like to do that "condemnation and condescension" you are accusing me of. I suggest you buy a mirror to look in it think about before starting to condemn others next time.

I think that every member of this forum should rather bother with their own shortcomings before starting to criticize the others. Only that self critic is a bit difficult for some around here so they jump directly at criticizing the others, it's much easier.

[SGWilko]

You are completely wrong.

Prove him wrong then.... ;)

[MrJan]

I think that every member of this forum should rather bother with their own shortcomings before starting to criticize the others.


As I said, hypocrisy is at home with most English F1 fans!

:laugh: You managed to criticise a whole nation of F1 fans before bothering with your own shortcomings :laugh:

[schmenke]

...Why do you feel the urge to analyze my behavior instead of keeping to the topic of the tread? ...

And what is the topic of the thread...? ;)

[ioan]

:laugh: You managed to criticise a whole nation of F1 fans before bothering with your own shortcomings :laugh:

I said most, but feel free to include yourself in that group! :p :

[wmcot]

And I am a Ferrari fan, who likes Brawn GP and Renault - I guess that I am a freak ;)

Yes, you are! ;)

[wmcot]

And what is the topic of the thread...? ;)

Something about BrawnGP's exhausts being illegal in Oz so they shouldn't have used exhausts at all...