The non-diffuser championship

[AndyL]

Here are the points standings if all the diffuser teams get retrospectively disqualified. (For academic interest only since I think that's highly unlikely!)


1 Heidfeld 14
2 Alonso 13
3 Webber 10
4 Bourdais 10
5 Buemi 8
6 Hamilton 6
7= Massa 5
7= Sutil 5
9 Fisichella 3
10 Piquet 2
11= Raikkonen 1
11= Vettel 1

[AndyL]

Oops I failed to take into account the half points awarded today... stand by for a correction...

OK here we go, here are the corrected scores.



1 Alonso 11.5
2 Heidfeld 9
3 Buemi 8
4 Bourdais 8
5 Webber 6
6 Sutil 5
7 Hamilton 3
8 Fisichella 3
9 Massa 2.5
10 Piquet 1
11 Vettel 1
12 Raikkonen 0.5

[pettersolberg29]

Would be very exciting if it happens.

[AndyL]

And the constructors:



1 Toro Rosso 16
2 Renault 12.5
3 BMW 9
4 Force India 8
5 Red Bull 7
6 McLaren 3
7 Ferrari 0.5

Toro Rosso fans, start lobbying the FIA appeal judges :)

[ioan]

The rules will be changed to outlaw the double decker diffusers but the results won't be changed.
This will be an equitable result of the appeal, cause the diffusers are circumventing the clearly stated (in print) intent of the rules, but as they were declared legal to be raced the ruling will not be applied retroactively.

Expect an even more tight field in China.

[jens]

Whatever the decision looks like, I'm pretty sure the results of the first two races won't be altered.

[Robinho]

i gather that Toyota are actually now running with a triple deck diffuser

[dj_bytedisaster]

Well considering Red Bull's performance, I would say the diffuser might be a tad overrated. Even if the thing is outlawed, the Honda's will still monster the field.

[ioan]

Well considering Red Bull's performance, I would say the diffuser might be a tad overrated. Even if the thing is outlawed, the Honda's will still monster the field.

You are underestimating the influence of one of the most important aero devices on a F1 car, especially when the whole car was designed with it in mind.

[Charlie]

i gather that Toyota are actually now running with a triple deck diffuser

That suggests to me that they are expecting them to be proved illegal and tried to make the most of the loophole at Sepang while they still could.

I saw Brundle doing his grid walk and Toyota were so desperate to hide it from the TV screens and other teams they had about 8 bodies in front of it, he then asked Sam Michael who just luaghed "We know what it is anyway". I did see Newy and a couple of Ferrari guys poking around it though.

[dj_bytedisaster]

well then the Red Bull must be one miracle of a car, because they're with the honda's all the time, despite having the poor man's diffuser. If they get the double decker, the song has been sung for jenson. FAIL.

[UltimateDanGTR]

The rules will be changed to outlaw the double decker diffusers but the results won't be changed.
This will be an equitable result of the appeal, cause the diffusers are circumventing the clearly stated (in print) intent of the rules, but as they were declared legal to be raced the ruling will not be applied retroactively.

Expect an even more tight field in China.

Thats what I've always thought and points cant be deducted if the cars have been declared legal to race. pure logic and surely it cant be overturned. however, one key fact in the decision is that this is the FIA. need I say more? :rolleyes:

[F1boat]

It is the FIA, Dan, but the FIA, I hope, is still looking on the commerical side of things... remember they wanted McLaren out of the championship and still only took their WCC points, so what ioan says is very logical. I hope that the diffusers will stay, but even if they are outlawed, I am happy if the results of the opening two races are kept. If they are altered in my opinion this will be a travesty for the sport and an extremely bad PR, which is not good in a time for crisis. Also, Brawn GP might go bankrupt and I don't know whether Toyota will not withdraw. So what ioan says is a likely scenario.
If the diffusers are gone, I think that Toyota and Williams will suffer, but Brawn still will have the best car.

[jso1985]

I doubt they will retrospective change the results as I guess the legal thing to do after a thing is said to be illegal is that you get punished if you use it AFTER it's ruled out, you can't get punished for using something that was legal during those days, otherwise McLaren would have been DQ'ed from the 98 Australian GP

[PSfan]

I doubt they will retrospective change the results as I guess the legal thing to do after a thing is said to be illegal is that you get punished if you use it AFTER it's ruled out, you can't get punished for using something that was legal during those days, otherwise McLaren would have been DQ'ed from the 98 Australian GP

Um, why use that as an example?

How about th 1976 British GP?

After the race, however, there were protests against Hunt having been allowed to take part. The protest was rejected but Ferrari appealed and the result of the race was not settled until September when Hunt was disqualified, leaving Lauda as the winner.

http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr273.html

[F1boat]

Um, why use that as an example?

How about th 1976 British GP?

After the race, however, there were protests against Hunt having been allowed to take part. The protest was rejected but Ferrari appealed and the result of the race was not settled until September when Hunt was disqualified, leaving Lauda as the winner.

http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr273.html

FIArrari ;)

[Ari]

Um, why use that as an example?

How about th 1976 British GP?

After the race, however, there were protests against Hunt having been allowed to take part. The protest was rejected but Ferrari appealed and the result of the race was not settled until September when Hunt was disqualified, leaving Lauda as the winner.

http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr273.html

Being that other teams have put in protects regarding the double diffusers BEFORE the races if they are deemed illegal then technically they should be exempt from the final standings and points removed.

Not that that is a good stance, however it's the way it is.

[christophulus]

On a side note, does anyone know how the half points are going to be accounted for in a count-back?

Say, I dunno, Button and Massa end up level on points. Massa wins five and Button wins five, only one of those was the Malaysian GP. Does that then count for 4.5 wins??

[AndyL]

On a side note, does anyone know how the half points are going to be accounted for in a count-back?

Say, I dunno, Button and Massa end up level on points. Massa wins five and Button wins five, only one of those was the Malaysian GP. Does that then count for 4.5 wins??

I'd say a win is a win, regardless of how many points were awarded for it... I don't know what the FIA rule book says though!

[ShiftingGears]

Whatever the decision looks like, I'm pretty sure the results of the first two races won't be altered.

Agreed.

[Andrewmcm]

I can't see them outlawing the double-decker diffusers. The other teams are throwing money (and valuable wind-tunnel time) at the problem so in a rather perverse way it is in all the teams' interests for the diffusers to remain legal.

[Ranger]

I can't see them outlawing the double-decker diffusers. The other teams are throwing money (and valuable wind-tunnel time) at the problem so in a rather perverse way it is in all the teams' interests for the diffusers to remain legal.

Not at all. If they are outlawed then Brawn, Williams and Toyota all have to spend resources just to make sure they can race at following events.

[ioan]

Not at all. If they are outlawed then Brawn, Williams and Toyota all have to spend resources just to make sure they can race at following events.

Exactly! The pressure will suddenly change from one group to the other.

[Andrewmcm]

Exactly! The pressure will suddenly change from one group to the other.

And? If, say, Ferrari or Renault ran this particular configuration would you be so keen to see it outlawed?

[PolePosition_1]

well then the Red Bull must be one miracle of a car, because they're with the honda's all the time, despite having the poor man's diffuser. If they get the double decker, the song has been sung for jenson. FAIL.


They can't have a double decker diffuser because of their rear suspension. I think thats why they were one of the first times to lodge a protest, or intent to protest, as they have the most to lose if it doesn't get outlawed.

[UltimateDanGTR]

It is the FIA, Dan, but the FIA, I hope, is still looking on the commerical side of things... remember they wanted McLaren out of the championship and still only took their WCC points, so what ioan says is very logical. I hope that the diffusers will stay, but even if they are outlawed, I am happy if the results of the opening two races are kept. If they are altered in my opinion this will be a travesty for the sport and an extremely bad PR, which is not good in a time for crisis. Also, Brawn GP might go bankrupt and I don't know whether Toyota will not withdraw. So what ioan says is a likely scenario.
If the diffusers are gone, I think that Toyota and Williams will suffer, but Brawn still will have the best car.

I agree with that statement, and your right any points deductions now will be an absolute travesty. And if the worst comes to the worst, I think it would definatly be the time for the teams to brake away from Formula 1 and create the Grand Prix World Championship. Bernie-less and FIA-less. Then maybe we could have a well run (by FOTA-or GPTA as they would be known then) world championship for open wheel vehicles. I would back that and it would be totally logical. But If the right decision is made then F1 still has a point and should be kept.

[Ranger]

They can't have a double decker diffuser because of their rear suspension. I think thats why they were one of the first times to lodge a protest, or intent to protest, as they have the most to lose if it doesn't get outlawed.

Red Bull and Renault discussed the concept of such a diffuser with the FIA in mid-2008 and were told it was illegal.

THAT is why they are protesting.

[Cooper_S]

Oops I failed to take into account the half points awarded today... stand by for a correction...

OK here we go, here are the corrected scores.



1 Alonso 11.5
2 Heidfeld 9
3 Buemi 8
4 Bourdais 8
5 Webber 6
6 Sutil 5
7 Hamilton 3
8 Fisichella 3
9 Massa 2.5
10 Piquet 1
11 Vettel 1
12 Raikkonen 0.5



And the constructors:



1 Toro Rosso 16
2 Renault 12.5
3 BMW 9
4 Force India 8
5 Red Bull 7
6 McLaren 3
7 Ferrari 0.5

Toro Rosso fans, start lobbying the FIA appeal judges :)



Would'nt Ferrari be on (2.5 + 0.5) = 3.0 points ;)

[AndyL]

Would'nt Ferrari be on (2.5 + 0.5) = 3.0 points ;)

Whoops! Well spotted. They would still be in 7th place though :)

[RJL25]

Red Bull and Renault discussed the concept of such a diffuser with the FIA in mid-2008 and were told it was illegal.

THAT is why they are protesting.

Exactly, BMW even queried the FIA about it a couple of years ago and where told no way! It's the inconsistancy which has annoyed the designers in other teams.

Also, Newey said that the RB5 CAN accept a double decker diffuser, the original aero package was actually conceived with a double decker diffuser or at least a variant of it but because they where told by the FIA it was not legal and they then changed the design, hence Red Bull's frustration.

[Andrewmcm]

Red Bull and Renault discussed the concept of such a diffuser with the FIA in mid-2008 and were told it was illegal.

THAT is why they are protesting.

Got a reference for that? I'd like to read it.

[schmenke]

I can't see them outlawing the double-decker diffusers. The other teams are throwing money (and valuable wind-tunnel time) at the problem so in a rather perverse way it is in all the teams' interests for the diffusers to remain legal.

The Speed TV commentators on Sunday mentioned a press release from one of the teams (Ferrari I think) stating that the development of a new diffuser would cost ~£20,000,000.
So much for cost-cutting :mark:

[Wasted Talent]

The Speed TV commentators on Sunday mentioned a press release from one of the teams (Ferrari I think) stating that the development of a new diffuser would cost ~£20,000,000.
So much for cost-cutting :mark:

BBC were quoting £2m not £20m.

To be fair the teams would be spending the money on something else anyway even if they weren't considering the diffuser.

Overall I don't want the diffuser to be thrown out, but the FIA inconsistency in saying no to some teams and yes to others is pathetic - as usual no-one will will be satisfied

WT

[wmcot]

I read an interesting article that the technical working group on diffuser design consisted of McLaren, Ferrari, and Renault along with Charlie Whiting. The teams using the questionable diffusers were not members of the group that drew up the rules - interesting!

[Ari]

BBC were quoting £2m not £20m.

To be fair the teams would be spending the money on something else anyway even if they weren't considering the diffuser.

Overall I don't want the diffuser to be thrown out, but the FIA inconsistency in saying no to some teams and yes to others is pathetic - as usual no-one will will be satisfied

WT

But if the FIA have categorically said NO to some teams then there is a problem. Red Bull were denied, rejected. That's their claim. And it's a good one.

[F1boat]

But if the FIA have categorically said NO to some teams then there is a problem. Red Bull were denied, rejected. That's their claim. And it's a good one.

Or they say it, because it is good for them to say so?

[Sonic]

Red Bull and Renault discussed the concept of such a diffuser with the FIA in mid-2008 and were told it was illegal.

THAT is why they are protesting.

To be fair though you don't walk into the FIA and say "we want to build a double decker diffuser" and get told whether it will be legal or not. You would need to show the FIA a proposed design and then get a ruling on legality.

So if the senario went something like this;

Say you are team 1 and you walk into the FIA with a double deck diffuser (lets call it design A) and get told that it is legal. You would be pretty cheesed off with the FIA if team 2 walked in with design B (or no concept at all - just a theory) that did not conform to the rules but the FIA told team 2; "Not quite right boys but team 1 are doing something like this....."

The FIA's only available response to design B would be "no thats illegal". No more no less. If team 2 the decide to drop the whole concept rather than go back to the drawing board surely that is down to the team - not the FIA.

IMO the rest of the pack will simply need to suck it up and redesign to double deck style. Easier for some than others - and sadly I fear with pull rod rear suspension, Red Bull may well be the last team to be able to follow the route.

[Nikey]

So if the senario went something like this;

Say you are team 1 and you walk into the FIA with a double deck diffuser (lets call it design A) and get told that it is legal. You would be pretty cheesed off with the FIA if team 2 walked in with design B (or no concept at all - just a theory) that did not conform to the rules but the FIA told team 2; "Not quite right boys but team 1 are doing something like this....."

The FIA's only available response to design B would be "no thats illegal". No more no less. If team 2 the decide to drop the whole concept rather than go back to the drawing board surely that is down to the team - not the FIA.


But FIA should also tell what part of design was illegal and not just say that's illegal. Then the team could decide wheather to not use it or modify. If they don't explain their decisions, situation could change so that FIA started to allow some teams use stuff others couldn't.

[Sonic]

But FIA should also tell what part of design was illegal and not just say that's illegal. Then the team could decide wheather to not use it or modify. If they don't explain their decisions, situation could change so that FIA started to allow some teams use stuff others couldn't.

Well as we do not have all the facts for all we know they might have. But I still stick to my position - if the FIA told the teams which parts of their design were illegal its guiding them. The FIA set the rules, not design the cars.

[ioan]

Or they say it, because it is good for them to say so?

Calling other people liars is all nice when it suits your POV, but where is your proof?!

[ioan]

BBC were quoting £2m not £20m.

To be fair the teams would be spending the money on something else anyway even if they weren't considering the diffuser.

Overall I don't want the diffuser to be thrown out, but the FIA inconsistency in saying no to some teams and yes to others is pathetic - as usual no-one will will be satisfied

WT

That's a very shortsighted view based on your own opinions and nothing more.

[F1boat]

Calling other people liars is all nice when it suits your POV, but where is your proof?!

Where's theirs? Are you accusing FIA of bias?

[Andrewmcm]

There are a fair number of accusations about what teams have or have not had ruled illegal and yet no-one is providing any proof of these exchanges. If no-one can prove anything then this thread is just turning into another bun-fight......