The Ferrari thread !

[SGWilko]

I do not expect him to be a Michael Schumacher. Schumacher was a one-off.

But also he is not the Kimi Raikkonen of 2008 & 2009.

Thankfully.

The Kimi of 2009 did, if memory serves me, win in the recalcitrant Ferrari. A car, lest we forget, that was born as poor as the '09 McLaren, and the development on which, Ferrari stopped early in order to produce a 'cracker' for this year.

I might also point out that whilst McLaren hd a poor car at the start of the season, the KERS was pretty handy. The Magnetti Marelli KERS, I hasten to add, tried on several occasions to pan-fry Kimi's cahones & butt cheeks.

Thus far, both car and 'star' driver for 2010 have failed to deliver the promise.

[pallone col bracciale]

The Kimi of 2009 did, if memory serves me, win in the recalcitrant Ferrari. A car, lest we forget, that was born as poor as the '09 McLaren, and the development on which, Ferrari stopped early in order to produce a 'cracker' for this year.

I might also point out that whilst McLaren hd a poor car at the start of the season, the KERS was pretty handy. The Magnetti Marelli KERS, I hasten to add, tried on several occasions to pan-fry Kimi's cahones & butt cheeks.

Thus far, both car and 'star' driver for 2010 have failed to deliver the promise.

Your memory is incorrect. The Ferrari was the best car at Spa last year. It was not an amazing win.

You may also like to remember that Kimi was more interested in ice cream than working.

For that alone, Alonso is worth twice as much.

[ShiftingGears]

Your memory is incorrect. The Ferrari was the best car at Spa last year. It was not an amazing win.

You may also like to remember that Kimi was more interested in ice cream than working.

For that alone, Alonso is worth twice as much.

Clutching at straws. Man eats ice cream after car fails.

[SGWilko]

Your memory is incorrect. The Ferrari was the best car at Spa last year. It was not an amazing win.

You may also like to remember that Kimi was more interested in ice cream than working.

For that alone, Alonso is worth twice as much.

How interested would you be if your team was manouvering to buy you out of your contract, and replace you with a blackmailing primadonna?

Of course, in Kimi's case - he who laughs last........

[SGWilko]

Clutching at straws. Man eats ice cream after car fails.

Yeah, I bet it wasn't even a 99 Flake!

[ioan]

I think I will call him Mr. Monza

want to bet big mouth!!!!!!

They might name a corner after him, the one where he spins out again! :p

[ioan]

I'd prefer 'The man that retired the man that retired Schumacher' Alonso.

Or 'the man who was shown the door by a rookie' Alonso!

PS: Getting your seat paid for by a bank doesn't equal being better than the driver who was bought out.

[SGWilko]

Indeed, and how people can base a person's whole work philosophy on a 5 second snippet of footage, is abit of a joke. If Kimi eating ice cream is going to be used as a serious response in any debate, then its clear some of us are not on the same page IMO.

A corner short of a GP circuit IYAM!

[pallone col bracciale]

Indeed, and how people can base a person's whole work philosophy on a 5 second snippet of footage, is abit of a joke. If Kimi eating ice cream is going to be used as a serious response in any debate, then its clear some of us are not on the same page IMO.

And why does it matter that I am not on the same page as you?

Who are you to decide what page people should be on?

You and your fellow bullyboys do not have the right to think you are better than anyone.

I have asked you before to show some respect. Apparently that was a waste of time.

[SGWilko]

And why does it matter that I am not on the same page as you?

Who are you to decide what page people should be on?

You and your fellow bullyboys do not have the right to think you are better than anyone.

Show some respect.

Henners me old mucker, I think you were just insulted there.

Did our familiar friend call you a bully?

[Mia 01]

Thanks for the vid henner. You made my day!

[Garry Walker]

But also he is not the Kimi Raikkonen of 2008 & 2009.

Thankfully.

I thought you were a ferrari fan. Obviously you only wish bad to ferrari so you arent a fan.

[Bagwan]

And why does it matter that I am not on the same page as you?

Who are you to decide what page people should be on?

You and your fellow bullyboys do not have the right to think you are better than anyone.

I have asked you before to show some respect. Apparently that was a waste of time.

Don't let them provoke you , Pallone .

Kimi never had the passion required to be a Ferrari driver .
It was a mis-match , and a mistake from the word go .

And , his ice cream episode showed a driver uninterested in his team , and was a perfect example of why Alonso is infinitely better for the seat .

Remember this is "the Ferrari thread" and these two posters are not Tifosi .
Respect is not why they are here .

Though I cannot call myself Tifoso , I understand .
You are not alone .

[Saint Devote]

Don't let them provoke you , Pallone .

Kimi never had the passion required to be a Ferrari driver .
It was a mis-match , and a mistake from the word go .

I would not call winning the 2007 title for himself and the Scuderia a mistake :eek:

Kimi does not have the sort of personality that Ferrari love and want their drivers to have, thats true, but it remains that he got the job done and that after all was what he was hired to do in the first place.

[Big Ben]

I have nothing against Kimi but overall, his 3 years at Ferrari are less then impressive and McLaren is doing much better since he left too. I was delighted when he won the title in 2007 but that was only because McLaren were stupid enough to fight against their better driver... and even in Brasil when it was up to him Massa had to slow down to let him win.

[ArrowsFA1]

I have asked you before to show some respect.
Respect is earned, not given on demand.

[DexDexter]

Yes, I did watch it... it was my first actually and I used to be Hill's fan back then so I don't really agree with your evaluation of him... however you say that Schumi won 3 races that year against 2 mediocre drivers and that is ... huh, amazing?

Schumi did better than Alonso with a much worse car, that was my point, which surely an intelligent bloke like you understood.

[DexDexter]

Don't let them provoke you , Pallone .

Kimi never had the passion required to be a Ferrari driver .
It was a mis-match , and a mistake from the word go .

And , his ice cream episode showed a driver uninterested in his team , and was a perfect example of why Alonso is infinitely better for the seat .

Remember this is "the Ferrari thread" and these two posters are not Tifosi .
Respect is not why they are here .

Though I cannot call myself Tifoso , I understand .
You are not alone .

How do you know whether he had passion or not? You judged him based on what you consider to be "passion", what is considered passion in your culture.
Kimi's problem at Ferrari was cultural, that's pretty evident.

[Big Ben]

Schumi did better than Alonso with a much worse car, that was my point, which surely an intelligent bloke like you understood.

Well, you overestimate me. The circumstances are very diferrent so a comparison based purely on results is too simplistic and it's done only because it suits one's bias IMO.

[SGWilko]

Your memory is incorrect. The Ferrari was the best car at Spa last year. It was not an amazing win.

Actually, I would stick my neck out and suggest that, on that day, in those conditions, the Force India was the best car. Kimi Won the race by clever timing/use of the KERS.

He then, for lap after lap, despite the Force India doing its best impression of 'white van man' on the M25 (right up his a**!), kept Fisi behind him.

Kimi was thought very highly of at McLaren, and I think they certainly got the best out of him - sadly, the McLarens during Kimi's time there were not a match for his talent in terms of reliability.

His wins and recovery drives from the back due to qually engine failures were testament to his quality.

[pallone col bracciale]

Respect is earned, not given on demand.

And this is the forum policy or just your opinion?

Again, I ask why you are so rude? I suppose your last post explains why, in a way.

I had asked you before politely to explain your immediate dismissive dislike of myself, and as yet you have not been courteous enough to reply, so please, if you are talking about respect, should you not lead by example?

As of yet, you yourself have not done anything to earn it, yet I am polite enough to be respectful in my request and response. From what I understand you have just said, you do not think I should be respectful until you have earnt that privilege?

[SGWilko]

And this is the forum policy or just your opinion?



It's called 'real life' isn't it?

[Retro Formula 1]

This is a F1 forum, not a platform for the Respect party. Nobody has been rude but you seem to take exception to anyone with views that differ from yours?

As for Kimi, he contributed to 3 titles in 3 years. That's pretty impressive and surely as a Ferrari fan, something you should respect also?

Now, in 2010, we have Alonso and he's a passionate, emotive man. I can see the appeal of this type of character for Ferrari and their fans but at the moment, he is not really delivering. This years car should be fighting for the title and on paper is superior to the McLaren.

If I was a Ferrari fan, I would be asking questions about why the results are poor when the drivers have such a good car rather than disrespecting the most successful Ferrari driver since Schumacher.

[SGWilko]

And , his ice cream episode showed a driver uninterested in his team , and was a perfect example of why Alonso is infinitely better for the seat .


Surely, the existence of said ice cream vending machine in the Ferrari garage was for team use, right?

Why would a driver, having an ice cream, supplied by his team that he is part of, mean he is disinterested?

So, by your reckoning, Alonso does not 'do' ice cream I suppose?

:crazy:

[ArrowsFA1]

And this is the forum policy or just your opinion?

Again, I ask why you are so rude? I suppose your last post explains why, in a way.
I don't believe I have been insulting or rude in my responses to you at any point, and the same applies to any member on this forum since I have been here. It is my opinion that respect is earned, not given on demand, and I believe to be a generally accepted opinion. I do not speak for the forum or its policy. That's for the moderators to do.

I had asked you before politely to explain your immediate dismissive dislike of myself, and as yet you have not been courteous enough to reply, so please, if you are talking about respect, should you not lead by example?
I received a PM from you. There has been no "immediate dismissive dislike". However based on your posts during the time since you have signed up to the forum as pallone col bracciale I have reached a view. That view, and previous experience, means I will not be responding to PM's from you. Nor will I be responding further as this has become all to familiar, and another thread will probably end up being closed.

[Bagwan]

How do you know whether he had passion or not? You judged him based on what you consider to be "passion", what is considered passion in your culture.
Kimi's problem at Ferrari was cultural, that's pretty evident.

Ferrari judged that he was not worth it .
In fact , he was paid to leave .

Of course they believed he was quick , as he would have received a lesser amount , had he raced somewhere else in F1 .

He got them a title , but they still paid to get rid .

They certainly were passionate about seeing him leave . That's how passionate Ferrari were .

He was called lazy , not passionate .
And , my culture has nothing to do with it .
Perhaps his culture does , but it's largely irrelevent .
He was an ice-man in a hot , passionate team .
He fit into the car but didn't fit into the team .

[SGWilko]

Ferrari judged that he was not worth it .
In fact , he was paid to leave .

Of course they believed he was quick , as he would have received a lesser amount , had he raced somewhere else in F1 .

He got them a title , but they still paid to get rid .

They certainly were passionate about seeing him leave . That's how passionate Ferrari were .

He was called lazy , not passionate .
And , my culture has nothing to do with it .
Perhaps his culture does , but it's largely irrelevent .
He was an ice-man in a hot , passionate team .
He fit into the car but didn't fit into the team .

Trouble is, his replacement may well have the 'latin' spirit Ferrari cherish, but thus far he has shown only that he cannot handle the pressure without assistance, and that he is way too accident prone.

As I pointed out before, Kimi has the last laugh here.

[Big Ben]

Shouldn't we change the title of this thread now?

"The Ferrari bashing thread" would be a good choice. "The Ferrari fans lynching thread" would be another one. "The Anti-Ferrari mob thread" is not bad either.

I find the attitude of some, especially a group of british members rather disappointing.

[SGWilko]

Shouldn't we change the title of this thread now?

"The Ferrari bashing thread" would be a good choice. "The Ferrari fans lynching thread" would be another one. "The Anti-Ferrari mob thread" is not bad either.

I find the attitude of some, especially a group of british members rather disappointing.

The Ferrari fans bashing ex ferrari drivers thread?

[DexDexter]

Shouldn't we change the title of this thread now?

"The Ferrari bashing thread" would be a good choice. "The Ferrari fans lynching thread" would be another one. "The Anti-Ferrari mob thread" is not bad either.

I find the attitude of some, especially a group of british members rather disappointing.

I don't know, I think most people, me included, like Massa so it's not so much anti-Ferrari, it's more like anti-Alonso. Alonso came into the team under quite extraordinary circumstances where his sponsor paid a WDC out and he was supposed to be the Messiah and he isn't. Isn't it pretty logical that people start criticising him?

[ioan]

Schumi did better than Alonso with a much worse car, that was my point, which surely an intelligent bloke like you understood.

:D

[ioan]

I don't know, I think most people, me included, like Massa so it's not so much anti-Ferrari, it's more like anti-Alonso. Alonso came into the team under quite extraordinary circumstances where his sponsor paid a WDC out and he was supposed to be the Messiah and he isn't. Isn't it pretty logical that people start criticising him?

If it wasn't for himself whining and talking himself up and then failing miserably none of us would criticize him so much, but he is how we all know him so...

[ioan]

The Ferrari fans bashing ex ferrari drivers thread?

Ex-Ferrari fans bashing the Ferrari pay driver would be spot on for me! :D

[Bagwan]

Trouble is, his replacement may well have the 'latin' spirit Ferrari cherish, but thus far he has shown only that he cannot handle the pressure without assistance, and that he is way too accident prone.

As I pointed out before, Kimi has the last laugh here.

Fernando did not ask for assistance .
He made an attempt .
It was too close to risk .
His team judged it so as well .

His team-mate was told by his team that he was holding him up and balked twice at the suggestion he should give way .

Fernando then proved outright that he was , indeed , faster , and Massa could do nothing about that fact .

Felipe and Smedley then petulently protested , making it so obvious as to get thier team punished with a fine and a seat at the WMSC tribunal .
Smedley was pushing Felipe to be quicker but it just wasn't there .

If he could have shown he was capable , you might have a case for Fernando being favoured .
Sadly , for both you and Massa , he wasn't capable of lapping as quickly .

And , if Kimi was indeed laughing at Ferrari's misfortune , it goes a long way to showing why he never fit in the first place .

[pallone col bracciale]

I don't believe I have been insulting or rude in my responses to you at any point, and the same applies to any member on this forum since I have been here. It is my opinion that respect is earned, not given on demand, and I believe to be a generally accepted opinion. I do not speak for the forum or its policy. That's for the moderators to do.

I received a PM from you. There has been no "immediate dismissive dislike". However based on your posts during the time since you have signed up to the forum as pallone col bracciale I have reached a view. That view, and previous experience, means I will not be responding to PM's from you. Nor will I be responding further as this has become all to familiar, and another thread will probably end up being closed.

Thank you politely for your reply.

I am not whoever you think I am, so I kindly ask you to apologise for your misplaced rude attitude.

Grazie mille.

[gloomyDAY]

Fernando did not ask for assistance...Wrong! He was crying over the radio about Massa.

I agree with you that Alonsita was faster than Massa, but I'm not sure why Fernanda couldn't pass him on the track without Ferrari management manipulating the outcome.

[SGWilko]

Thank you politely for your reply.

I am not whoever you think I am, so I kindly ask you to apologise for your misplaced rude attitude.

Grazie mille.

Enough already!

His opinion is his.

Nothing rude in what Arrows posted.

[SGWilko]

if Kimi was indeed laughing at Ferrari's misfortune , it goes a long way to showing why he never fit in the first place .

Nay, nay and thrice nay. Not laughing at misfortune at all. Laughing that the replacement is fairing no better.

[ArrowsFA1]

Kimi's stay at Ferrari resulted in a WDC. Something that Ascari, Fangio, Hawthorn, Hill, Surtees, Lauda, Scheckter and Schumacher managed.

He was with Ferrari for three years, during which the team won two WCC's.

A fairly successful period I'd say.

[pallone col bracciale]

Enough already!

His opinion is his.

Nothing rude in what Arrows posted.

Again, harrassment from you.

I have asked you politely now on numerous occasions to stop but it is quite clear you are simply a bully in a playground.

It is not your forum and you are so important here to tell other people what to post when they are being courteous .

I ask politely.

You and your friends do not act politely or friendly or in a manner which allows you any superiority over the rest.

[SGWilko]

Again, harrassment from you.

I have asked you politely now on numerous occasions to stop but it is quite clear you are simply a bully in a playground.

It is not your forum and you are so important here to tell other people what to post when they are being courteous .

I ask politely.

You and your friends do not act politely or friendly or in a manner which allows you any superiority over the rest.

You can ignore me.....

[pino]

Guys...let's move on or this thread will be closed and a couple of you will be banned for a month ! Also please stop posting comments about members identity, Feedback Forum is the place for that! Don't let me ask this again...

[Bagwan]

Wrong! He was crying over the radio about Massa.

I agree with you that Alonsita was faster than Massa, but I'm not sure why Fernanda couldn't pass him on the track without Ferrari management manipulating the outcome.

He did not cry .

He said "ridiculous" .

And , indeed it was , that Felipe would risk both the Ferrari cars as Alonso made his move to take the lead after Felipe was told that Fernando was faster the first time .

Massa is a mouse , and Ferrari knew he was back-footed enough that he might react poorly in any passing attempt by a team-mate getting the better of him .
And , they were right .
He was told by his team that Fernando was faster in three separate transmissions .
In the first , he closed the door , prompting the "ridiculous" statement .
Then , the second transmission and subsequent refusal prompted Fernando to drop back and prove his point by catching up his team-mate at will .
The third time prompted a humiliated Felipe-baby to pout and , encouraged by his nurse-maid Smedley , proceed to drop his team in it .

Felipe needs to try to play the role the team has decided he must , and to try to act with a bit more class .
A pout only goes so far in the pirranha club .

Drive faster , or try to be a touch more dignified as a number two .
Unless the car is yards ahead of the rest , a number two is necessary , in most cases , for success .
Everyone , pretty much has to do it at some time , and some never leave the role .

A solid number two can win you a championship , and I believe that is what they hired Felipe to be , essentially , because they never expected him to be as fast as Fernando .
They were right .

[Big Ben]

If Fernando really is vastly superior in terms of being faster then he should have taken the challenge to Felipe in Germany IMO. On their day they are both fast and we saw Felipe out qualify Fernando at the weekend.

Now wouldn´t that be great? Especially since we know that Alonso´s overtaking attempts on Massa in the past never ended up in collisions... Why would a McLaren fan want that really? I wonder

[Saint Devote]

I have nothing against Kimi but overall, his 3 years at Ferrari are less then impressive and McLaren is doing much better since he left too. I was delighted when he won the title in 2007 but that was only because McLaren were stupid enough to fight against their better driver... and even in Brasil when it was up to him Massa had to slow down to let him win.

Here we go again ,,,,,,?

Kimi's time at Ferrari was actually one of the most successful compared to the majority of Ferrari drivers. During his first two years he won almost 26% of the races he entered which is a very high percentage - it was the last season that saw him become totally disaffected with the team and disenchanted with f1 because of the horrible F60 and f1 politics.

Although at the track he ruled during his time he did light up at Spa and win. Since then despite ALL its efforts Ferrari have won only two more grands prix - less than stellar.

Thats Kimi - when he does not have a car that is a winner he loses the motivation because he does not race to make up numbers. This is the attitude of a champion.

And in 2007 at Interlagos, there is nothing wrong with Massa letting Kimi through - this is a team and the object was to clinch the championship. This has always been done in f1, including with drivers such as Fangio, and it is both right and proper.

If Kimi does have a failing it is also not his attitude at Ferrari because Niki Lauda always hated the emotional side of Ferrari - it is that his capacity for working towards making the car is low because he has no interest and therefore he also has no method and so without good testing skills, through choice, a team flounders.

This is vastly different to previous Ferrari drivers like Lauda and Schumacher who loved the challenge and JOINED Ferrari because that challenge existed at the time.

This is not a McLaren thread so I will just remind that Ron Dennis of ALL people, apologized to Kimi about the situation at Woking because he recognized and we all know, that the team let Kimi down with reliability and had it been a better team - which it is actually today - then the Finn would have won more races and definitely the 2005 world title.

Who is Kimi? He is a very underrated driver unless you take the time to actually study him. And in my view it will always be with deep regret he was at least not at Spa last weekend as the reigning Spa-meister that he is.

[Saint Devote]

I don't take pleasure in seeing anyone crash out, and I like Felipe so seeing his race ended in a silly move would be less than desirable. I like to see hard but fair racing, who doesn't? :)

Like a driver will ALWAYS be happy when he sees a rival retire during a race, I am also always happy when that happens and benefits the driver I support.

But of you mean actually CRASH! - then of course like all racing fans I do not want a rival driver to be injured or worse. But if he crashes out and it is not something serious enough to injure then I love the sight!

ALLS fair in both love and war!

[pallone col bracciale]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86456

"Some suggestions have pointed towards a harsh punishment for Ferrari – which will include both drivers and team losing their points from the German Grand Prix. Should that happen, then it is likely the matter will head for the law courts."


Which is what I said a month ago.


BTW, I practice law. If I had to defend Ferrari I would have used the same defence stated in the report.


If the FIA do not wish to face a legal action in the civil court, then they will not find Ferrari guilty of anything.


Scusi, I should have said that if the FIA do not wish to lose a legal action in a civil court, then they will have to find Ferrari not guilty of anything.

[ioan]

If the FIA do not wish to face a legal action in the civil court, then they will not find Ferrari guilty of anything.


Weird logic! Why would the FIA not want to face Ferrari in a court of law?!

Do you believe that a court of law would not see that Ferrari have broken the rules?

BTW, Ferrari should think about how the ones involved in a legal action in a court of law are risking to go to jail in case they try to lie like they did to the media after the German GP!

The conclusion is that Ferrari have everything to lose in case they start a legal case against the FIA and Todt and his good friend Mosley are more than aware of this.

[gloomyDAY]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86456

"Some suggestions have pointed towards a harsh punishment for Ferrari – which will include both drivers and team losing their points from the German Grand Prix. Should that happen, then it is likely the matter will head for the law courts."Ha! Nothing is going to happen to Ferrari. Todt doesn't have the balls to take away championship points from the grid's most illustrious team. I think that Ferrari should be banned from the next race, but that's not going to happen. All Ferrari are getting is a slap on the wrist.



A solid number two can win you a championship , and I believe that is what they hired Felipe to be , essentially , because they never expected him to be as fast as Fernando. They were right .I guess you didn't watch the Belgian GP. ;)

[Saint Devote]

There is a very tricky situation that exists ahead of tomorrow which is why there is literally a TEAM of legal people in Paris from Ferrari.

First of all it will not be a court of law and therefore there is no oath taken. This allows people to change their story or explain what happened and primary in this is both Massa and Smedley.

The basic question is whether both the above indivividuals wish to continue working at Ferrari beyond 2011.

At the foundation of the issue rests a teams right - and a we are all aware, this is unalienable and is not compromised by the rule set out by the FIA.

This will too be argued - and it is deliberate that the rule has this loophole.

Additionally there is the issue of strategy versus team orders - which can this be categorized as?

Another issue is why the rule is in place to begin with? Proper fans understand what has always occurred and why it does in racing. Casual fans react emotionally and are swayed by the press.

Unfortunately the motor racing media are of the recent generation in many cases and react emotionalistically.

If the reaction of fans is the reason for the rule - then the rule is not pertinent because undermining the right of Ferrari as the rule does is morally and philosophically incorrect. The fan does not count in this regard because it cannot as they have no right to anything in motor racing. They are outside observers - regardless of anything.

And everyone in f1 understands this which is why there was been essentially tepid reaction from pitlane. Clearly people such as Horner, Brawn and Whitmarsh would like to see a significant modification of this incipid and obnoxious rule.

I think that is what will occur and will make those who love and cherish this magnificent sport happy not to have another civil war break out.

It is also pertinent that this hearing is occurring literally a couple of days ahead of the Italian Grand Prix, not by accident - it sends a signal that the issue will be dealt with reasonably and without upsetting the new strong man in f1, Luca di Montezemolo.

Ridiculous notions of banning Ferrari or acting in draconian fashion towards the team is not probable.

It is like the story of King Solomon and the two women each wanting the baby for themselves - the one that really loved the baby did not want to see the child destroyed.

And so it is with fans. Those who love and cherish f1 strongly desire not for Ferrari to be hurt, but for the rule to be altered to take account of strategy as well as recognize the right of racing teams.

Tomorrow not only Ferrari will be the affected party, but so will ALL in f1.

[gloomyDAY]

Damn it STD. You write a whole essay to say two things:

1) Team orders, bad.

2) Ferrari, good.

[Roamy]

Anyone that believes Ferrari should be punished - should then start revoking MS's championships. !

[ArrowsFA1]

...if the FIA do not wish to lose a legal action in a civil court, then they will have to find Ferrari not guilty of anything.
That suggests an implied thread of sorts on Ferrari's behalf and assumes that they would not accept the WMSC's ruling should it go against them though doesn't it?

As a team, and organisation, which has signed up to the FIA F1 World Championship and, by implication, agreed to its rules and regulations, for Ferrari to resort to civil court action and challenge the FIA's authority in this way would have serious implications.

Martin Whitmarsh recently said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86453), when asked if a breakaway series was still an option, "I think it is an option, but I think the sensible thing is for the parties to co-operate and not fight."

[Mia 01]

Here are one moore who has studied law for six years.

If Ferrari take the decision from the WDSC to a civil court they will bring the sport in to disrepute.

Which, by the way, they already did with this whole matter.

[Tumbo]

At the foundation of the issue rests a teams right - and a we are all aware, this is unalienable and is not compromised by the rule set out by the FIA.

What unalienable right is this StD? As an organisation any rights exist in relation to the country of origin and then further the country in which they choose to conduct business - an organisation while it can be received at law as an individual is not recognised as such when it comes to 'unalienable rights' these are simply granted through specific legislation in individual countries. Further Ferrari have decided to compete in a competition through their own volition rather than through sheer force.....provided that all materials set before them in the signing of the contract are upheld and no specific legislation to be found in any relevant country is the FIA can set whatever rules it so wishes - the only argument which may be potentially argued is that the FIA have impeded Ferrari's rights at law to free trade......this would be incredibly weak and the chances of succeeding in a civil matter challenging any ruling would be difficult. Note of course the decision last yr concerning Briatore and Symmons and the subseuqent civil case where the issue at hand was not the WMSC's ability to set down such a ruling but rather the process undertaken in doing so

[Saint Devote]

Damn it STD. You write a whole essay to say two things:

1) Team orders, bad.

2) Ferrari, good.

:D well in order to arrive, sometimes the journey is long!

[Retro Formula 1]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86456

"Some suggestions have pointed towards a harsh punishment for Ferrari – which will include both drivers and team losing their points from the German Grand Prix. Should that happen, then it is likely the matter will head for the law courts."


Which is what I said a month ago.


BTW, I practice law. If I had to defend Ferrari I would have used the same defence stated in the report.


If the FIA do not wish to face a legal action in the civil court, then they will not find Ferrari guilty of anything.


Scusi, I should have said that if the FIA do not wish to lose a legal action in a civil court, then they will have to find Ferrari not guilty of anything.

I respectfully disagree.

As previously stated, I hope there is no further punishment imposed on Ferrari by the WMSC. I believe that blatant team orders were imposed as did the Stewards at the meeting in question. It is also my opinion that the WMSC will find the same and deem Ferrari Guilty but I feel it is counter-productive to punish them further and spending time sorting out this unsuitable piece of sporting legislation would be more appropriate. However, there is little doubt that Ferrari are guilty of not only imposing blatant team orders but arguably bringing the sport into disrepute by doing so.

Now, my opinion of how this should be handled has nothing to do with what the WMSC will actually do. They may decide that there is insufficient evidence and reverse the Stewards penalty. I think this is very unlikely but if it does happen then Ferrari will leave the hearing completely vindicated and guilty of nothing apart from informing Massa in a very strange way that Alonso was faster than him....

This is the most unlikely outcome IMHO. What is more likely is that they might hit Ferrari with a draconian penalty but suspend it for a year or 2 to ensure Ferrari don't dare do this again. The Stewards will be justified, Ferrari will have been found guilty and punished while Ferrari will have to keep their noses clean.

What is coming out as the most likely outcome is that the WMSC will remove points from the drivers and/or team in further punishment.

If anything apart from the first scenario happens then Ferrari will be found guilty and if they feel unfairly judged, can attempt to clear their name by going through the courts.

They will not do this and I will put money on it because if they do, they will lose.

Why?

Because the WMSC will call Rob, Filipe, Stefano, etc to swear on oath that there was no team order given in the coded radio transmissions.

Do you think they will all perjure themselves over this?

Of course, they might decide to appeal if they are innocent but that's where our difference of opinion exists. If they are found guilty, which I am confident they will, I bet they don't appeal. Do you think they will and if you're so sure, I'll take your money off you in a friendly wager. After all, you're the expert in this and I'm just a noob taking a punt :)

[SGWilko]

:D well in order to arrive, sometimes the journey is long!

You've been chatting to Sting again, haven't you?

Nudge nudge, wink wink, know what I mean.......

;) :D :laugh:

[Bagwan]

Punish all the teams , or change the rule .

That's how stupid this is .

It's a team sport , but everyone has seemingly forgotten this .

Or , perhaps they can just ban the phrase "Driver X is faster than you ." so it can't be used again .
I guess they used that wording in Melbourne , too , but Felipe didn't have the same reaction . He didn't let Fernando past .

So , my opinion has Ferrari pointing to this , and since Felipe was petulent enough in Oz , it will show them that , indeed , it was his decision to yield to his team-mate .
He made two different decisions when told the same information at two different times .

[Mia 01]

They escaped whitout further penalties.

Why aren´t I suprised.

[steveaki13]

It is now clear that team orders are allowed, so re write the ruling banning team orders from now.

It could change the dynamics of the last few races if it is now easier for teams do do what they need to in order to win the title rather than having to let their drivers take points off each other.

In other words Good news for
Ferrari & Alonso
Webber
Hamilton

Bad News for:
Button
Vettel

[UltimateDanGTR]

It is now clear that team orders are allowed, so re write the ruling banning team orders from now.



well we've seen that this is not the case, because the punishment is 100 000 euros. such a heavy price to pay for the big teams, clearly :rolleyes:

I'd have liked to have seen ferrari's constructors points from the race taken away as well as Alonso disqualified, but maybe this is because I felt like it was Massa's moral victory.

one thing is for certain now though: If lord fred of ferrari becomes world champion, I for one will take it as a farce.

[F1boat]

Honestly as far as I am concerned, there is no official document by the FIA. It was several hours ago when the Italian said about the decision, so who knows what will FIA do. I hope that the Ferrari are really not punished, but who knows. One this is sure - under the new boss FIA is even slower than during the reign of Max :(

[pallone col bracciale]

They escaped whitout further penalties.

Why aren´t I suprised.

It could be because you don't understand the law as well as you think you did?

The notion you put forward that, should Ferrari have taken civil proceedings against the FIA in the result of a guilty verdict, that Ferrari would be found to have brought the sport into disrepute is wholly incorrect.

It is enshrined within European judicial legislation that no person or group, in this specific case the FIA, can prejudice or submit punishment against another person or group, in this case Ferrari Spa, should that other person or group begin civil proceedings against them.

In effect, the current European Convention on Human Rights (Article 6), commonly referred to as the Human Rights Act, prevents any measure which would be seen to impede the right to a free trail.

Any action taken by the FIA in direct response to a court action by Ferrari against them would be viewed as such an impediment and as witness intimidation.

That means that, no matter what the rulebook of the FIA states, any action taken by a governing body is of secondary importance to the civilian and public judicial system and is unlawful.

Furthermore, as any action taken by the FIA in terms of punishing Ferrari, or another competitor starting legal proceedings, would be immediately in direct confrontation with the European Convention of Human Rights, and as both the FIA and Ferrari are subject to the above mentioned Act, there would be nothing that the FIA could do about it.

But, after 6 years of law studies, you would surely have known this?

Also, bringing a sport into disrepute is merely a sporting organisations framework, not one recognised by the public legal system. Therefore it would be impossible for the FIA to bring a legal action against Ferrari for this.

[ArrowsFA1]

"Ferrari has taken note of the decision of the FIA World Council, relating to the outcome of this year's German Grand Prix and wishes to express its appreciation of the Council's proposal to review article 39.1 of the Formula 1 sporting regulations, in light of what emerged during today's discussions."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86481

So, no appeal against the original decision by the stewards which found Ferrari in breach of article 39.1, no further punishment by the WMSC, and a review of the rule banning team orders.

:up:

[F1boat]

They escaped whitout further penalties.

Why aren´t I suprised.

You aren't? Wow, you were constantly reminding us how Fernando will lose his victory.

[Firstgear]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86481

So, no appeal against the original decision by the stewards which found Ferrari in breach of article 39.1, no further punishment by the WMSC, and a review of the rule banning team orders.

:up:

Sounds reasonable all around. (especially since I have Ferrari & Alonso as part of my FGP Team ;) )

[Robinho]

It could be because you don't understand the law as well as you think you did?

The notion you put forward that, should Ferrari have taken civil proceedings against the FIA in the result of a guilty verdict, that Ferrari would be found to have brought the sport into disrepute is wholly incorrect.

It is enshrined within European judicial legislation that no person or group, in this specific case the FIA, can prejudice or submit punishment against another person or group, in this case Ferrari Spa, should that other person or group begin civil proceedings against them.

In effect, the current European Convention on Human Rights (Article 6), commonly referred to as the Human Rights Act, prevents any measure which would be seen to impede the right to a free trail.

Any action taken by the FIA in direct response to a court action by Ferrari against them would be viewed as such an impediment and as witness intimidation.

That means that, no matter what the rulebook of the FIA states, any action taken by a governing body is of secondary importance to the civilian and public judicial system and is unlawful.

Furthermore, as any action taken by the FIA in terms of punishing Ferrari, or another competitor starting legal proceedings, would be immediately in direct confrontation with the European Convention of Human Rights, and as both the FIA and Ferrari are subject to the above mentioned Act, there would be nothing that the FIA could do about it.

But, after 6 years of law studies, you would surely have known this?

Also, bringing a sport into disrepute is merely a sporting organisations framework, not one recognised by the public legal system. Therefore it would be impossible for the FIA to bring a legal action against Ferrari for this.

Why aren't Ferrari bringing civil action then? The steward found them guilty and imposed the maximum punishment. The FIA hearing upheld the ruling and the punishment and chose not to repeal the punishment. Therefore they consider Ferrari guilty of breaking the team orders rule and of bringing the sport into disrepute. The rule breach is still considered to have happened by the governing body, but they found the existing punishment enough. Ferrari have not been cleared.

Are they now accepting they are guilty, or have they merely decided that £100k is not worth worrying about and they don't care about the stigma of being guilty as long as the punishment doesn't really effect them? Because however you cut it they are still found guilty, but now no longer threatening court action.

[Mia 01]

It could be because you don't understand the law as well as you think you did?

The notion you put forward that, should Ferrari have taken civil proceedings against the FIA in the result of a guilty verdict, that Ferrari would be found to have brought the sport into disrepute is wholly incorrect.

It is enshrined within European judicial legislation that no person or group, in this specific case the FIA, can prejudice or submit punishment against another person or group, in this case Ferrari Spa, should that other person or group begin civil proceedings against them.

In effect, the current European Convention on Human Rights (Article 6), commonly referred to as the Human Rights Act, prevents any measure which would be seen to impede the right to a free trail.

Any action taken by the FIA in direct response to a court action by Ferrari against them would be viewed as such an impediment and as witness intimidation.

That means that, no matter what the rulebook of the FIA states, any action taken by a governing body is of secondary importance to the civilian and public judicial system and is unlawful.

Furthermore, as any action taken by the FIA in terms of punishing Ferrari, or another competitor starting legal proceedings, would be immediately in direct confrontation with the European Convention of Human Rights, and as both the FIA and Ferrari are subject to the above mentioned Act, there would be nothing that the FIA could do about it.

But, after 6 years of law studies, you would surely have known this?

Also, bringing a sport into disrepute is merely a sporting organisations framework, not one recognised by the public legal system. Therefore it would be impossible for the FIA to bring a legal action against Ferrari for this.

They have signed to the Concorde agreement until 2012, they have to live by the rules as the other teams or they shall be kicked out.

And yeah, FIA is a sporting organisation, noone is forcing a team to join them.

[ioan]

Well well, bringing the sport into disrepute can cost 100.000.000 USD if you are McLaren and 100.000 USD if you are Ferrari.

Shouldn't someone sue the FIA for bringing the sport into disrepute?!

[mstillhere]

Well well, bringing the sport into disrepute can cost 100.000.000 USD if you are McLaren and 100.000 USD if you are Ferrari.

Shouldn't someone sue the FIA for bringing the sport into disrepute?!

AHAHAAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH :) ))))))))

[Saint Devote]

As anticipated, the proper [ONLY!] decision was made and the FIA will now work at modifying one of the [many] stupid rules.

Time to get back to racing! Forza Ferrari :-]

[mstillhere]

They have signed to the Concorde agreement until 2012, they have to live by the rules as the other teams or they shall be kicked out.

And yeah, FIA is a sporting organisation, noone is forcing a team to join them.

According to Ferrari they did not brake any FIA rule. As I wrote before everyone brakes this rule. Ferrari got in trouble because they had the grace of a rhino in a china shop. The only learning that Ferrari is getting from this is next time they'll do it they'll do it like everyone else: with grace :)

[F1boat]

As anticipated, the proper [ONLY!] decision was made and the FIA will now work at modifying one of the [many] stupid rules.

Time to get back to racing! Forza Ferrari :-]

Well said!

[ArrowsFA1]

Well well, bringing the sport into disrepute can cost 100.000.000 USD if you are McLaren and 100.000 USD if you are Ferrari.

Shouldn't someone sue the FIA for bringing the sport into disrepute?!
:)

Something a number of people were calling for back in 2007:
"It is conduct most unbecoming of an FIA president and, in my humble view, brought the sport into disrepute." (link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/kevingarside/2322764/Damon-Hill-defends-legend-Jackie-Stewart.html))

Still, water under the bridge now and fortunately we have a new and very different FIA President.

[Retro Formula 1]

Well, it is a silly rule but a rule none the less. Ferrari broke the rules and have been punished.

Furthermore, they have been summoned in front of the WMSC who Ferrari have publicly stated they have confidence in to make the right decision.

The WMSC have confirmed the punishment and also imposed legal costs on Ferrari on top of the $100,000 fine.

Ferrari have accepted the judgement that they are guilty of using team orders to influence the outcome of the race and will not be appealing.

The FIA will be reviewing the existing rule to decide whether it needs amending.

[Retro Formula 1]

It could be because you don't understand the law as well as you think you did?

But, after 6 years of law studies, you would surely have known this?



Get thee over to Maranello post haste sunshine because Ferrari need your help. Their legal team must be shocking because they've not just been found guilty and have chosen to accept the verdict and not appeal but have also been saddled with the FIA legal fees for the privilege.

If they had you on the books, they would have probably ended up getting compensation from the FIA and a apology from the Stewards. :D :D

[ArrowsFA1]

According to Ferrari they did not brake any FIA rule...
It seems that the FIA President agrees - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86490 - or does he?

This is all rather odd. The stewards fined Ferrari for being in breach of article 39.1, and for bringing the sport into disrepute. The WMSC upheld this decision and have asked Ferrari to pay the FIA's legal costs, and yet Todt appears to be saying there was insufficient evidence to find them guilty although he tends to agree that team orders were used.

:crazy:

[I am evil Homer]

Same old FIA really...confused, dumb and made to look foolish. So much for a new regime.

[SGWilko]

So much for a new regime.

There is a lot of 5hyt3 to clear out from the old regime.

The FIA appears to have taken the view that a team sport is likely to have team orders.

So, they did the right thing.

They told Ferrari they were wrong. That they did use team orders, that they are very naughty, that the Stewards penalty and fine will stand and that the FIA's fees will be met by Ferrari.

In the meantime, the FIA will look into abolishing the near unapplicable 'no team orders' rule.

So, teams still cannot use team orders.

[Valve Bounce]

Allo, allo!..............

[Ranger]

According to the FIA:
- They brought the sport into disrepute.
- They did not use team orders.

It seems fair enough considering everyone uses them just not so blatantly.

[ArrowsFA1]

According to the FIA:
- They brought the sport into disrepute.
- They did not use team orders.
But if they didn't use team orders how did they bring the sport into disrepute? And the fine of $50,000 imposed by the stewards for the use of team orders was not overturned by the WMSC so they did use team orders.

:crazy:

[Ranger]

But if they didn't use team orders how did they bring the sport into disrepute? And the fine of $50,000 imposed by the stewards for the use of team orders was not overturned by the WMSC so they did use team orders.

:crazy:

1. This is not isolated since Austria 2002.
2. There still exists a grey area in that rule.

Given the above, I agree with the punishment.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

The rule needs to go. It is and was always stupid.

[DexDexter]

Everyone knew the verdict beforehand, so let's forget about the whole thing and move on.

[ioan]

According to Ferrari they did not brake any FIA rule.

According to the FIA they did. Who's the governing body?!

[ioan]

Still, water under the bridge now and fortunately we have a new and very different FIA President.

Yep, one without balls.

[jens]

Uhh, team orders. Well, FIA was in a delicate situation about that one.

As there is a rule about team orders, I suppose they ought to have done at least something. I mean McLaren was stripped of their collected 15 WCC points in Hungary '07 for a team mess - I thought Ferrari could have been worthy of a similar penalty. But now FIA reminded a bit of a toothless dog, who failed to penalize the most obvious rule infringement. Granted, it was their own incompetent rule, which created an inability to reach a good decision to begin with.

On the other hand team orders have been part of the game all those years since the ban and nothing has been done. If this was penalized, surely Turkey '05 ("Alonso, overtake Fisi"), Brazil '07, China '08 and others should have been too. Team order is a team order... Bah...

[pallone col bracciale]

It seems that the FIA President agrees - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86490 - or does he?

This is all rather odd. The stewards fined Ferrari for being in breach of article 39.1, and for bringing the sport into disrepute.

Ferrari have not been fined for bringing the sport into disrepute.

They have been fined for an infringement of Article 39.1, a decision subsequently upheld by the WMSC despite the FIA President confirming there was no evidence.

The FIA should be very grateful that Ferrari have not taken further legal action, as it is evident that the guilty verdict is wholly without basis. No evidence means that. No matter what some people think, as thoughts are not evidence. Hard facts are, and it is confirmed there were none.

As for bringing the sport into disrepute? Ferrari were charged by the Stewards and this is the reason the WMSC was called, yet no verdict was reached. That means that Ferrari were not guilty.

And, for anyone interested in real law, just because a team signs up to a Concorde Agreement does not mean that this agreement takes precedence over Civil law. An organisation cannot ignore the higher authority of the jurisdiction of the state in which it is based.

[pallone col bracciale]

Edit to above - My mistake, Ferrari were charged with bringing the sport into disrepute.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/f1releases/2010/Pages/f1_germangp.aspx

However, the FIA press release issued today confirms that there was not enough evidence to pursue the matter further.

The FIA president confirms there was no evidence to support the guilty verdict.

On the subject of the apparent discrepancy between this case and that of Mclaren in 2007, that case had confirmed evidence (later confirmed by Martin Whitmarsh in an admission of guilt as well as detailed examples of Mclaren employees using the information which they had illicitly gained), whereas the Ferrari case has no such evidence.

If one is struggling to see the fundamental difference between the two, and therefore the difference in penalty, then it is perhaps no surprise that an inability to understand what is admissible evidence also exists?

[Rodster]

It looks like Fred the wonder boy Alonso had an engine advantage over Felipe. According to the FIA report both drivers were told to turn down their engines and shortly after Alonso was allowed to turn his back up. Felipe was never told to do the same. :D

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86508

"The report also revealed that a few laps before the radio communication where Rob Smedley informed Massa that Alonso was faster than him, both drivers had been ordered to turn their engines down – before the Spaniard was allowed to turn his up again.

"Alonso increased his engine speed without Mr Felipe Massa's being informed," revealed the FIA document. "Mr Fernando Alonso was therefore benefiting from a definite performance advantage over Mr Felipe Massa in the moments preceding the contentious overtaking."

[Retro Formula 1]

They have been fined for an infringement of Article 39.1, a decision subsequently upheld by the WMSC despite the FIA President confirming there was no evidence.

The FIA should be very grateful that Ferrari have not taken further legal action, as it is evident that the guilty verdict is wholly without basis. No evidence means that. No matter what some people think, as thoughts are not evidence. Hard facts are, and it is confirmed there were none.



Sorry but the WMSC said:


"It is undeniable that the race result would have been different had the contentious instruction not been issued to Mr Felipe Massa," said the FIA.

They also said that Felipe slowed down without an obvious reason to do so. This has nothing to do with having his engine turned down or Alonso turning his up but that he actually slowed!

The WMSC also said that the only reason Alonso was faster was because he had been told to turn his engine up prior to the pass where Massa was not. They deemed that Ferrari's claim that Alonso was faster didn't hold up until he was allowed to turn his engine up.

By looking at all the facts, the WMSC concluded that Ferrari had committed a breach of BOTH 39.1 and 151 (c).

Todt was not chairing the meeting and offered an opinion to the BBC including that in his opinion, Ferrari had used team orders, a view that was confirmed by the WMSC ruling and the subsequent fine and awarding of costs against Ferrari. However, Todts opinion is inadmissible in this case as it was not part of the ruling. Lets stick to facts and not opinions.

At no time did Todt, the WMSC, FIA or Stewards say there was no evidence and the only reason that Ferrari weren't punished further is because they cooperated fully and because of the ambiguity of the rule itself.

I think we should do the decent thing now and realise the lawyers at Ferrari know a hell of a lot more than either of us and if it was so easy to avoid over $100,000 penalty and costs, would have done it.

[Hawkmoon]

It looks like Fred the wonder boy Alonso had an engine advantage over Felipe. According to the FIA report both drivers were told to turn down their engines and shortly after Alonso was allowed to turn his back up. Felipe was never told to do the same. :D

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86508

"The report also revealed that a few laps before the radio communication where Rob Smedley informed Massa that Alonso was faster than him, both drivers had been ordered to turn their engines down – before the Spaniard was allowed to turn his up again.

"Alonso increased his engine speed without Mr Felipe Massa's being informed," revealed the FIA document. "Mr Fernando Alonso was therefore benefiting from a definite performance advantage over Mr Felipe Massa in the moments preceding the contentious overtaking."

Looks like Ferrari took a leaf out of Red Bull's book as that's what Red Bull did to Webber in Turkey. They told him to turn his engine down and Vettel to turn his up. The only difference being that Red Bull forgot to take into account the fact that Vettel can't pass another car without hitting it even if you handed him a map and a GPS system. Turned out to be a case of handbags at noon after that.

[Rodster]

Looks like Ferrari took a leaf out of Red Bull's book as that's what Red Bull did to Webber in Turkey. They told him to turn his engine down and Vettel to turn his up. The only difference being that Red Bull forgot to take into account the fact that Vettel can't pass another car without hitting it even if you handed him a map and a GPS system. Turned out to be a case of handbags at noon after that.

ROFL, i've said it elsewhere if it was Mark in Felipe's seat i'm sure he would have told his race engineer to f-off.

I like Mark as a driver, next to Felipe he's my favorite because anyone who can getaway with calling Nico Rosberg "Britney Spears" is ok in my book. :D

[Saint Devote]

According to the FIA they did. Who's the governing body?!

In these matters? It is Bernie.

The case yesterday was the finishing event - during the past weeks much has gone on behind the scenes because Bernie will rightly not tolerate such a stupid case and, the timing - days before Monza 2010.

Only an insane person would have wanted a different outcome because then they cannot claim to love f1.

And anyone believing that Jean Todt would not move heaven and earth to free Ferrari from such tyrrany, is really mistaken.

In addition, over such a minor issue, upsetting Montezemolo after the horrible upheavals we had last year, was just not on.

[airshifter]

Sorry but the WMSC said:



They also said that Felipe slowed down without an obvious reason to do so. This has nothing to do with having his engine turned down or Alonso turning his up but that he actually slowed!

The WMSC also said that the only reason Alonso was faster was because he had been told to turn his engine up prior to the pass where Massa was not. They deemed that Ferrari's claim that Alonso was faster didn't hold up until he was allowed to turn his engine up.

By looking at all the facts, the WMSC concluded that Ferrari had committed a breach of BOTH 39.1 and 151 (c).

Todt was not chairing the meeting and offered an opinion to the BBC including that in his opinion, Ferrari had used team orders, a view that was confirmed by the WMSC ruling and the subsequent fine and awarding of costs against Ferrari. However, Todts opinion is inadmissible in this case as it was not part of the ruling. Lets stick to facts and not opinions.

At no time did Todt, the WMSC, FIA or Stewards say there was no evidence and the only reason that Ferrari weren't punished further is because they cooperated fully and because of the ambiguity of the rule itself.

I think we should do the decent thing now and realise the lawyers at Ferrari know a hell of a lot more than either of us and if it was so easy to avoid over $100,000 penalty and costs, would have done it.


Great post. I was wondering how Todt's opinion on the matter even came into the picture. It is like asking a bystander at a court state that they don't agree with the decision of the court.

As for Alonso, at least now we know where he gets his 6/10ths. Even then he sometimes can get the best of the apparently sometimes crippled by his team Felipe.

[Mia 01]

Ferrari have not been fined for bringing the sport into disrepute.

They have been fined for an infringement of Article 39.1, a decision subsequently upheld by the WMSC despite the FIA President confirming there was no evidence.

The FIA should be very grateful that Ferrari have not taken further legal action, as it is evident that the guilty verdict is wholly without basis. No evidence means that. No matter what some people think, as thoughts are not evidence. Hard facts are, and it is confirmed there were none.

As for bringing the sport into disrepute? Ferrari were charged by the Stewards and this is the reason the WMSC was called, yet no verdict was reached. That means that Ferrari were not guilty.

And, for anyone interested in real law, just because a team signs up to a Concorde Agreement does not mean that this agreement takes precedence over Civil law. An organisation cannot ignore the higher authority of the jurisdiction of the state in which it is based.

You are so right, noone force ferrari to obey the sporting regulation they signed until 2012, except FIA. How often does a decision from for example a fotball game being examinated in a civil court?

If you don´t understand, or don´t want to, there´s no meaning to discuss.

[wmcot]

Getting your seat paid for by a bank doesn't equal being better than the driver who was bought out.

Unless you are the one running (or paying for) the team!

[wmcot]

Looks like Ferrari took a leaf out of Red Bull's book as that's what Red Bull did to Webber in Turkey. They told him to turn his engine down and Vettel to turn his up. The only difference being that Red Bull forgot to take into account the fact that Vettel can't pass another car without hitting it even if you handed him a map and a GPS system. Turned out to be a case of handbags at noon after that.

Yep. In the future, Red Bull will be saying turn your engine down and move way off the racing line! :)

[wmcot]

However, the FIA press release issued today confirms that there was not enough evidence to pursue the matter further.


Not to mention that both Frank Williams and Peter Sauber were in support of Ferrari in this matter:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=41935

When was the last time Frank supported Ferrari in a controversy? I think this whole case has let the FIA know that the team order ban is idiotic and that those who believe it stopped teams from using team orders are more than idiotic.

[ArrowsFA1]

The WMSC verdict does rather leave us in limbo where 39.1 is concerned. The rule has not yet been scrapped, or even amended, so it remains in place for now, but it is going to be reviewed. What happens if/when a similar situation arises until that happens?

Effectively have teams been told they can use team orders, but they have to pay $100,000 to do so?

[Retro Formula 1]

The WMSC verdict does rather leave us in limbo where 39.1 is concerned. The rule has not yet been scrapped, or even amended, so it remains in place for now, but it is going to be reviewed. What happens if/when a similar situation arises until that happens?

Effectively have teams been told they can use team orders, but they have to pay $100,000 to do so?

At the moment, the FIA have said they will review it.

Don't be surprised if rather than scrapping it, they tighten it up futher to include coded messages :(

I hope not but they might.

[Dzeidzei]

And, for anyone interested in real law, just because a team signs up to a Concorde Agreement does not mean that this agreement takes precedence over Civil law. An organisation cannot ignore the higher authority of the jurisdiction of the state in which it is based.

A bit offtopic, but I find Italians teaching others law a bit amusing. I always thought Italy didnt have an official judicial system. Instead they have 3 unofficial systems: the church, the mafia and the berlusconian. Which one of these is ranked highest?

No offense, mate.

[SGWilko]

A bit offtopic, but I find Italians teaching others law a bit amusing. I always thought Italy didnt have an official judicial system. Instead they have 3 unofficial systems: the church, the mafia and the berlusconian. Which one of these is ranked highest?

No offense, mate.

Haaaay, you disrespectin me, Dzeidzei Don? ;) :laugh:

[Dzeidzei]

Haaaay, you disrespectin me, Dzeidzei Don? ;) :laugh:

On the contrary. I´ll make you an offer you cant refuse....

[ioan]

Effectively have teams been told they can use team orders, but they have to pay $100,000 to do so?

Yep.
Given yesterday's decision the FIA can not punish team orders, at least until the rule is changed.

[truefan72]

Effectively have teams been told they can use team orders, but they have to pay $100,000 to do so?

that is the way I see it!

[Saint Devote]

What a superb day for the Tifosi?

After a weak FP1 and not much optimism - WHAM! and the Scuderia does them proud in FP2.

Its not qualifyiing or the race, BUT it is always wonderful to see those red racing cars quick at Monza.

Forza Ferrari!!!

[Mia 01]

Massa ´will win this with vettes second

[F1boat]

I hope that Alonso will win again, and I also keep my fingers crossed for podium places for Massa and Jenson!

[wmcot]

Effectively have teams been told they can use team orders, but they have to pay $100,000 to do so?

Sounds like a nice little fund raiser for the FIA coffers if you ask me.

[pallone col bracciale]

Bellisimo!!!

[ioan]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[pallone col bracciale]

Overrated = Alonso

After today, it is more Hamilton who is over-rated. And a first class fool.

Oh, to have been at the Lesmos today!

[DexDexter]

After today, it is more Hamilton who is over-rated. And a first class fool.

Oh, to have been at the Lesmos today!

Excellent race from Alonso but let's remember that he spun off in Belgium.

[F1boat]

Great day for Ferrari!

[pallone col bracciale]

Excellent race from Alonso but let's remember that he spun off in Belgium.

No, let's remember that he was won the Italian GP for Ferrari at the first attempt.

But, if you wish to remember things, what was his predecessors best Monza result for Ferrari?

[ioan]

Excellent race from Alonso but let's remember that he spun off in Belgium.

Well said. I would just add that he was using a wet weather setup that day, according to the 'man' himself.

[F1boat]

Look, even the best drivers make mistakes. The important thing is that Fernando is the first Ferrari driver to win at Monza since Michael the Great. This is the best thing, the most important thing. I hope that he will win the WDC, but even if he doesn't, he won at Monza for Ferrari, and this is no small feat.

[ioan]

Look, even the best drivers make mistakes.

Really?
This wasn't your stated opinion back when you were describing Lewis' and Vettel's mistakes in the past.

[donKey jote]

I hope that Alonso will win again, and I also keep my fingers crossed for podium places for Massa and Jenson!

:)

[truefan72]

After today, it is more Hamilton who is over-rated. And a first class fool.

Oh, to have been at the Lesmos today!

clearly displaying that one can be classless in victory.

so I take it Alonso was over-rated in Spa and a fool?

and what will happen when Hamilton wins again, and Alonso looses it again?

[truefan72]

No, let's remember that he was won the Italian GP for Ferrari at the first attempt.

But, if you wish to remember things, what was his predecessors best Monza result for Ferrari?

yes, lets take a big bucket of paint and whitewash history to fit today's narrative.

Let me think what Kimi did in 2007,,,oh yes, win the WDC in his first year at Ferrari and come from behind in a seemingly impossible position with a car not as dominant as the Macs to do so in spectacular fashion in the last GP.

If you are a true Ferrari fan you must have been over the moon back then and pretty much ensured that Kimi would be canonized in the halls of Ferrari Lore forever.

But knowing you, you probably ripped down the posters and dismantled the kimi shrine as soon as he left the team, trying hard to minimize his accomplishments and trying even harder to "not remember"

[ioan]

yes, lets take a big bucket of paint and whitewash history to fit today's narrative.

Let me think what Kimi did in 2007,,,oh yes, win the WDC in his first year at Ferrari and come from behind in a seemingly impossible position with a car not as dominant as the Macs to do so in spectacular fashion in the last GP.

If you are a true Ferrari fan you must have been over the moon back then and pretty much ensured that Kimi would be canonized in the halls of Ferrari Lore forever.

But knowing you, you probably ripped down the posters and dismantled the kimi shrine as soon as he left the team, trying hard to minimize his accomplishments and trying even harder to "not remember"

I don't think he ever got close to having a Kimi shrine, more like a darts board with Kimi's face on it.

[pino]

Excellent race from Alonso but let's remember that he spun off in Belgium.

Belgium is the past, Monza is what counts today and today was a great day for both Alonso and Ferrari :up:

[F1boat]

:)

Aha, it was the perfect day for me... may favorite drivers on the podium, my favorite team won and Michael beat Rubens :) Great F1 race...
about the Lewis mistake, it's not the place to discuss it, but it is understandable for Ferrari and Alonso fans to cheer, after the hate post the Belgium GP. It is childish, however. Even the best drivers may lose their cool. But today Fernando was the man, just like Hamilton was two weeks ago. But now it is time for Ferrari to celebrate!

[DexDexter]

No, let's remember that he was won the Italian GP for Ferrari at the first attempt.

But, if you wish to remember things, what was his predecessors best Monza result for Ferrari?

3rd with a car that wasn't developed in months. How many times has Alonso won on the one true driver's circuit in F1, Spa?

[F1boat]

3rd with a car that wasn't developed in months. How many times has Alonso won on the one true driver's circuit in F1, Spa?
This is all very childish. I celebrated when Kimi won for Ferrari and now I am celebrating for Alonso. Both are great Scuderia drivers :)

[DexDexter]

This is all very childish. I celebrated when Kimi won for Ferrari and now I am celebrating for Alonso. Both are great Scuderia drivers :)

What is childish? I stated that Alonso had an excellent race and pallo starts the old Kimi-bashing....now that is childish.

[F1boat]

Now this is like "he started it"...

[airshifter]

This is all very childish. I celebrated when Kimi won for Ferrari and now I am celebrating for Alonso. Both are great Scuderia drivers :)

I think anyone who respects the racing heritage of Ferrari should be glad to see a Ferrari with any driver on top of the podium at Monza. :D

[Dzeidzei]

What is childish? I stated that Alonso had an excellent race and pallo starts the old Kimi-bashing....now that is childish.



But a good race by Santander. The last chance to be in the fight and they took it. Good to have 5 cars fighting for wdc.

[F1boat]

I think anyone who respects the racing heritage of Ferrari should be glad to see a Ferrari with any driver on top of the podium at Monza. :D

Exactly!

[Retro Formula 1]

I hope that Alonso will win again, and I also keep my fingers crossed for podium places for Massa and Jenson!

How foolish do you feel now ;)

[F1boat]

How foolish do you feel now ;)

I feel delighted! Ferrari is the best team and Jenson is a great driver, who I support, so to have him and the scarlet cars on the podium, with Fred winning, is perfect!

[truefan72]

This is all very childish. I celebrated when Kimi won for Ferrari and now I am celebrating for Alonso. Both are great Scuderia drivers :)


I think anyone who respects the racing heritage of Ferrari should be glad to see a Ferrari with any driver on top of the podium at Monza. :D


I suggest you folks tell that to Pallone

[Saint Devote]

I feel delighted! Ferrari is the best team and Jenson is a great driver, who I support, so to have him and the scarlet cars on the podium, with Fred winning, is perfect!

The pit stop result was for me one of those moments that now add to my collection of passionate emotion, such as remembering vividly when Nigel's tyre blew in Adelaide ......

So very disappointed along with Jenson.

But his comments afterwards soothed the situation - with his broken diffuser and then the tyre problems, despite the mess by Mclaren, he could not have held off El Nano.

:eek: A wonderful day for Ferrari and I have said before that at Monza, if not Jenson, then the Scuderia - just not THIS way!!!

:D I think this was Jense's BEST drive along with his Monaco 2009 win - and in qualification at this difficult track to do well, he was magnificent.

Whitmarsh signed him for this type of potential and this is a track that requires finesse and patience that he is simply the best at.

At the start of the year my pick for the title was Alonso and there were those who wrote him off a while ago.

Since the middle of the season - Silverstone - Alonso has been scoring points faster except for one driver only, Mark Webber.

The unanswered question is whether Ferrari have engineered the car to where El Nano will be able to use his exceptional skill to win the title. His biggest rival is Webber, because Mark has found the zone that allows him to race in the way that Senna described essential to win the championship.

I will not be surprised to see these two in the end be the rivals for title honors.

Since Silverstone, they have been scoring points a higher rate than everyone else - especially the Australian.

Ferrari and Alonso are not done just yet!

[Valve Bounce]

Belgium is the past, Monza is what counts today and today was a great day for both Alonso and Ferrari :up:

This is absolutely true: when Fernando came out ahead of Bunsen after the great pitstop, my first thought was pino must be delighted

[555-04Q2]

Great weekend for Ferrari :up: Hopefully a slim chance at the WDC now.

[pino]

This is absolutely true: when Fernando came out ahead of Bunsen after the great pitstop, my first thought was pino must be delighted

You're damn right I was very delighted :D

[race aficionado]

You're damn right I was very delighted :D

Good for you Pino! :)

I like Monza and I always enjoy the ending of the race when all the fans fill up the track for the podium celebration - and that BIG Ferrari flag.

And you know me well . . . . these were among my favorite F1 Monza years:

2003 Michael Schumacher – Ferrari
2002 Juan Pablo Montoya – Williams-BMW
2001 Juan Pablo Montoya – Williams-BMW
2000 Michael Schumacher – Ferrari

I remember them well.
:s mokin:

[airshifter]

Ah yes Race... any memory of Montoya on a good day is a great one as well.


I do have a question for everyone though. Was I the only one that was shocked that Felipe didn't pit first? Though he had fallen back from Jenson and Fernando, all three of them traded fastest laps for much of the race. He had solid control on third place and it seemed he would not catch the two cars ahead.

Had Felipe pitted earlier they now had the time difference delta for the Ferrari car, which would benefit both him and Alonso. Assuming the new tires were faster, they also had the possibility of him jumping Jenson, which once again could benefit both Ferrari drivers.

I was sure and waiting for Felipe to pit first, but it never happened.

[ioan]

Ah yes Race... any memory of Montoya on a good day is a great one as well.


I do have a question for everyone though. Was I the only one that was shocked that Felipe didn't pit first? Though he had fallen back from Jenson and Fernando, all three of them traded fastest laps for much of the race. He had solid control on third place and it seemed he would not catch the two cars ahead.

Had Felipe pitted earlier they now had the time difference delta for the Ferrari car, which would benefit both him and Alonso. Assuming the new tires were faster, they also had the possibility of him jumping Jenson, which once again could benefit both Ferrari drivers.

I was sure and waiting for Felipe to pit first, but it never happened.

Ferrari did the right thing.
They could not know if Jenson will be faster or slower on the new tires so they pitted Alonso as soon as possible, and covered the other option with Felipe.

[F1boat]

You're damn right I was very delighted :D

Yeah, good for you and all Ferrari & Alonso fans!!!

[mstillhere]

yes, lets take a big bucket of paint and whitewash history to fit today's narrative.

Let me think what Kimi did in 2007,,,oh yes, win the WDC in his first year at Ferrari and come from behind in a seemingly impossible position with a car not as dominant as the Macs to do so in spectacular fashion in the last GP.

If you are a true Ferrari fan you must have been over the moon back then and pretty much ensured that Kimi would be canonized in the halls of Ferrari Lore forever.

But knowing you, you probably ripped down the posters and dismantled the kimi shrine as soon as he left the team, trying hard to minimize his accomplishments and trying even harder to "not remember"

So let me get this strait. When we lose the number of hate postings reachs the sky. When we win we are not supposed to enjoy it and instead think about when we are going to lose again. Is that pretty much what you are saying??

[pino]

Good for you Pino! :)

I like Monza and I always enjoy the ending of the race when all the fans fill up the track for the podium celebration - and that BIG Ferrari flag.

And you know me well . . . . these were among my favorite F1 Monza years:

2003 Michael Schumacher – Ferrari
2002 Juan Pablo Montoya – Williams-BMW
2001 Juan Pablo Montoya – Williams-BMW
2000 Michael Schumacher – Ferrari

I remember them well.
:s mokin:

Thanks amico race :) Yes Monza is somenthing unique, especially when Ferrari wins but I also remember those years when Juan Pablo won...those were exciting years for all F1 fans ;)

[DexDexter]

So let me get this strait. When we lose the number of hate postings reachs the sky. When we win we are not supposed to enjoy it and instead think about when we are going to lose again. Is that pretty much what you are saying??

You don't have a clue. The point is true Ferrari fans love when the car wins, no matter who is driving. To me it's was great to see a Ferrari victory at Monza although I dislike Alonso and his sponsor very much. Now if Felipe had won...or one rally driver.... ;)

[steveaki13]

No doubt about it, Ferrari get people talking about F1 for all sorts of reasons more than any other team.

Due to the long long history I suppose.

[mstillhere]

You don't have a clue. The point is true Ferrari fans love when the car wins, no matter who is driving. To me it's was great to see a Ferrari victory at Monza although I dislike Alonso and his sponsor very much. Now if Felipe had won...or one rally driver.... ;)

You dont have a clue either. I was asking truefan72 that question.

I am very pleased you had a good time. I don't have a preference at all as far as who is supposed to win. I always support the team, although I do have a weakness for MS :)

[Roamy]

You don't have a clue. The point is true Ferrari fans love when the car wins, no matter who is driving. To me it's was great to see a Ferrari victory at Monza although I dislike Alonso and his sponsor very much. Now if Felipe had won...or one rally driver.... ;)

Not me - I moved off them when they had Cheatmacher and JV was racing!!

[Saint Devote]

My alltime favorite was in 1979 when Jody Scheckter achieved the ultimate in motor racing that few others have and in total nobody will again:

driving a Ferrari, winning the Italian Grand Prix driving for the first time at Monza as Ferrari driver, and winning the World Championship on the day and doing all this while Enzo Ferrari was still alive.

And in typical fashion, Ferrari who was always a big fan of Jody, said "bravo campiogne" [excuse my spelling] afterwards, and that was it! Ferrari like Jody was a man of few words, but they meant something.

My other favorite Ferrari memory was when Jean Alesi was leading at Monza - he did not win but retired with mechanical problems, but it was superb.

Not to forget the win of one of my favorite drivers, that of Clay Regazzoni in the most beautiful racing car ever built, the 312bT, in 1975.

A few wonderful memories that I cherish.

It is indeed always special when Ferrari win at that very special track Monza.

[Valve Bounce]

My alltime favorite was in 1979 when Jody Scheckter achieved the ultimate in motor racing that few others have and in total nobody will again:

driving a Ferrari, winning the Italian Grand Prix driving for the first time at Monza as Ferrari driver, and winning the World Championship on the day and doing all this while Enzo Ferrari was still alive.



Well, the chance of anyone winning a race while Enzo is alive would be very slim these days, let alone winning the championship for Ferrari. :rolleyes:

[Roamy]

Right GV let him win cuz the old man told him to!!

[DexDexter]

You dont have a clue either. I was asking truefan72 that question.

I am very pleased you had a good time. I don't have a preference at all as far as who is supposed to win. I always support the team, although I do have a weakness for MS :)

Yep, but the discussion started when one Italian poster started bashing former Ferrari drivers....

[Mia 01]

Alonso drove well this race. I´m not a fan of his, but his win puts moore excitement to the championship.

[truefan72]

So let me get this strait. When we lose the number of hate postings reachs the sky. When we win we are not supposed to enjoy it and instead think about when we are going to lose again. Is that pretty much what you are saying??

Did you read my post?
Did I say not to enjoy the win or celebrate as loud and as proud as you can?

I objected to Pallone bringing in Hamilton in the discussion as basically saying that his first lap incident was proof that he was a fool while conveniently forgetting what his new hero did just the race before and all too often in 2010.

2. I actually came to the defense of a Ferrari driver and complimented him for his superb achievement in 2007 and found it quite funny how he was so easy to dismiss kimi despite bring such glory to the team in his 3 short years at the team.

So I suggest you clear the red mist and actually read the posts before assuming that either one of my posts where some sort of affront to your favorite team. So you pretty much got everything completely wrong in what I was saying :\

[truefan72]

You dont have a clue either. I was asking truefan72 that question.

I am very pleased you had a good time. I don't have a preference at all as far as who is supposed to win. I always support the team, although I do have a weakness for MS :)

so then what was wrong with what I said, and where in my post did I say to temper your enthusiasm? I actually made your point that a true ferrari fan would be happy about any Ferrari win instead of bashing a former and most recent WDC champ from the team.

jeez...

[jens]

Besides all this endless Kimi v Alonso talk it is worth noting that their first seasons in Ferrari are not too dissimilar. Alonso might still "do a Kimi" and win in the end despite overall a bit disappointing season and playing catch-up in the standings almost all year. The difference is that Alonso has got Massa under control better than Kimi ever had.

It looks like the main difference derives from qualifying. Massa managed to outqualify Kimi more often than not and thus managed to often get superior results. On the other hand Alonso manages to outqualify Massa almost on a consistent basis.

As we see, current Massa is actually quite fast. He has come to grips with the car and manages to basically match Alonso's race pace, likewise he managed to match Kimi's race pace. But the difference is qualifying and track position - you may match pace, but there is a big difference whether you're in front or behind. And with the exception of some driving mistakes, this is where Alonso manages to play his cards well compared to Massa.

[ioan]

BThe difference is that Alonso has got Massa under control better than Kimi ever had.

The other difference being that Kimi raced Massa on equal terms. :)
Mille grazie Santander! :down:

Or maybe you missed the German GP this season?

[DexDexter]

Besides all this endless Kimi v Alonso talk it is worth noting that their first seasons in Ferrari are not too dissimilar. Alonso might still "do a Kimi" and win in the end despite overall a bit disappointing season and playing catch-up in the standings almost all year. The difference is that Alonso has got Massa under control better than Kimi ever had.

It looks like the main difference derives from qualifying. Massa managed to outqualify Kimi more often than not and thus managed to often get superior results. On the other hand Alonso manages to outqualify Massa almost on a consistent basis.

As we see, current Massa is actually quite fast. He has come to grips with the car and manages to basically match Alonso's race pace, likewise he managed to match Kimi's race pace. But the difference is qualifying and track position - you may match pace, but there is a big difference whether you're in front or behind. And with the exception of some driving mistakes, this is where Alonso manages to play his cards well compared to Massa.

The question is whether Massa is the same driver he was before that spring almost killed him? Häkkinen never was after his accident, he admitted it himself. He won 2 WDCs after that but was cautios, for example, in rain.

[F1boat]

Besides all this endless Kimi v Alonso talk it is worth noting that their first seasons in Ferrari are not too dissimilar. Alonso might still "do a Kimi" and win in the end despite overall a bit disappointing season and playing catch-up in the standings almost all year. The difference is that Alonso has got Massa under control better than Kimi ever had.

It looks like the main difference derives from qualifying. Massa managed to outqualify Kimi more often than not and thus managed to often get superior results. On the other hand Alonso manages to outqualify Massa almost on a consistent basis.

As we see, current Massa is actually quite fast. He has come to grips with the car and manages to basically match Alonso's race pace, likewise he managed to match Kimi's race pace. But the difference is qualifying and track position - you may match pace, but there is a big difference whether you're in front or behind. And with the exception of some driving mistakes, this is where Alonso manages to play his cards well compared to Massa.

Good observation...

[Garry Walker]

Besides all this endless Kimi v Alonso talk it is worth noting that their first seasons in Ferrari are not too dissimilar. Alonso might still "do a Kimi" and win in the end despite overall a bit disappointing season and playing catch-up in the standings almost all year. The difference is that Alonso has got Massa under control better than Kimi ever had.

It looks like the main difference derives from qualifying. Massa managed to outqualify Kimi more often than not and thus managed to often get superior results. On the other hand Alonso manages to outqualify Massa almost on a consistent basis.

As we see, current Massa is actually quite fast. He has come to grips with the car and manages to basically match Alonso's race pace, likewise he managed to match Kimi's race pace. But the difference is qualifying and track position - you may match pace, but there is a big difference whether you're in front or behind. And with the exception of some driving mistakes, this is where Alonso manages to play his cards well compared to Massa.

When he was racing against kimi, he wasnt told to lower the RPMs of his car, while Kimi was told to increase his.
Massa has no chance against Santander, when he was made nr.2 driver since before the first race.

[jens]

Or maybe you missed the German GP this season?

There were team orders in Brazil '07 and China '08 as well. Granted, this year they happened much earlier in the season, but then again in 07-08 one Ferrari hadn't accumulated notably more points than the other by mid-season.


The question is whether Massa is the same driver he was before that spring almost killed him? Häkkinen never was after his accident, he admitted it himself. He won 2 WDCs after that but was cautios, for example, in rain.

I haven't seen those special qualifying laps by Massa for two years already that were existent in 2008, so I'm not entirely sure what to make of it. But I have to say Alonso's qualifying performances have slightly exceeded my expectations - after getting outqualified by Trulli and Hamilton I expected him to be more vulnerable in this area in the team-mate battle.

I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with Massa's race pace at the moment - whether he is or isn't quite as aggressive in wheel-to-wheel racing as he used to be, is harder to say. Another question is whether it took half a season for Massa to adapt to the car due to accident and pause in racing - meaning that maybe he is slower in adapting than he used to be?!


When he was racing against kimi, he wasnt told to lower the RPMs of his car, while Kimi was told to increase his.
Massa has no chance against Santander, when he was made nr.2 driver since before the first race.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, Massa wasn't asked to move over for Alonso in Australia and Malaysia, when he was still very much a front-runner in the points standings. How much Alonso has been preferred in the car preparation phase, is harder and subjective to tell. But in Massa's case I'm very much looking forward to 2011 and hoping he finds that extra tenth in qualifying, which he would badly need.

[ioan]

There were team orders in Brazil '07 and China '08 as well. Granted, this year they happened much earlier in the season, but then again in 07-08 one Ferrari hadn't accumulated notably more points than the other by mid-season.

In 2007 and 2008 it was agreed before the race and only when one of them had a chance to win the WDC, this time around it came out of the blue, or maybe out of Alonso's whining?!

[Big Ben]

In 2007 and 2008 it was agreed before the race and only when one of them had a chance to win the WDC, this time around it came out of the blue, or maybe out of Alonso's whining?!

you have no shame man. where were your high moral standards in 2002? Back then team orders were issued much earlier in the season and were absolutely unnecessary. this post is the pinnacle of hypocrisy. you are nothing but a troll and I don´t get why the mods didn´t ban you for good by now.

[ioan]

you have no shame man. where were your high moral standards in 2002?

There were no rules against team orders back in 2002.
Next time get your facts right before insulting other forum members.

Anyway it was a pleasure to hear Alonso squealing for team orders.
Best of all was that even though Ferrari asked Massa to turn the revs down and still Alonso wasn't able to overtake him and had to beg for team orders.

I guess it was the same back at Renault against Trulli and Fisichella only that we didn't get to hear their radio conversations back then, what a pity.

[Big Ben]

There were no rules against team orders back in 2002.
Next time get your facts right before insulting other forum members.

Anyway it was a pleasure to hear Alonso squealing for team orders.
Best of all was that even though Ferrari asked Massa to turn the revs down and still Alonso wasn't able to overtake him and had to beg for team orders.

I guess it was the same back at Renault against Trulli and Fisichella only that we didn't get to hear their radio conversations back then, what a pity.

perhaps you should go back to your post because you seem to forget that it wasn´t the breaking of the rules you were complaining about.... as for the rest of the post it´s just trolling... again and I'm not here to feed you.

[Big Ben]

I guess it was the same back at Renault against Trulli and Fisichella only that we didn't get to hear their radio conversations back then, what a pity.

I recall once FA complained over the radio about Fisichella holding him while the almighty MS benefited from a very kind and well intended slow lap of Massa just before pit stop... I think the year was 2006, and the GP was in US... and team orders were banned btw

[truefan72]

I recall once FA complained over the radio about Fisichella holding him while the almighty MS benefited from a very kind and well intended slow lap of Massa just before pit stop... I think the year was 2006, and the GP was in US... and team orders were banned btw

Its is quite common knowledge that the flav favored alonso to such a degree that many thought the team might as well be running one car then. We all know how they treated trulli and Fisi (whose fragile personality did not help matters either) so it came as a shock to alonso when he was not given preferential treatment at Mclaren. Was back to his usual ways at Renault, where it was clear he was the number one and his teammates were barely worthy of an f1 seat, then made sure once he got to Ferrari to secure some sort of an agreement which favored him because massa on his day would give him a run for his money.

It is funny how the 3 biggest scandals to hit formula one of recent memory all have to do with Alonso trying to get his way to the detriment of his team, the sport and his fellow driver.

I predicted that Ferrari situation would result in a mess by hockenheim, and funny enough...it did.

[Big Ben]

Its is quite common knowledge that the flav favored alonso to such a degree that many thought the team might as well be running one car then. We all know how they treated trulli and Fisi (whose fragile personality did not help matters either) so it came as a shock to alonso when he was not given preferential treatment at Mclaren. Was back to his usual ways at Renault, where it was clear he was the number one and his teammates were barely worthy of an f1 seat, then made sure once he got to Ferrari to secure some sort of an agreement which favored him because massa on his day would give him a run for his money.

It is funny how the 3 biggest scandals to hit formula one of recent memory all have to do with Alonso trying to get his way to the detriment of his team, the sport and his fellow driver.

I predicted that Ferrari situation would result in a mess by hockenheim, and funny enough...it did.

The problem was that the team didn't tell Fisi to move out of the way like Massa was doing for MS but that situation doesn't go welll with the bashing fest

[ioan]

It is funny how the 3 biggest scandals to hit formula one of recent memory all have to do with Alonso trying to get his way to the detriment of his team, the sport and his fellow driver.

Exactly, however I wouldn't call it funny, it's shocking.

[Rodster]

It is funny how the 3 biggest scandals to hit formula one of recent memory all have to do with Alonso trying to get his way to the excrement of his team, the sport and his fellow driver.

There fixed :)

[Roamy]

pretty funny - as long as they have radios and pitboards there will be team orders. That is why no punishment for ferrari. FIA just wants it not to be blatant.

[F1boat]

There fixed :)

Funny, I though that the biggest scandal came because one team stole data from another... Silly me!

[Saint Devote]

If the story has some truth to it - Briatore to replace Domenicali eventually?
Alonso may be trying to work according to the Schumi formula. And why not?

Flavio is an excellent manager and if Webber is still aound why not have his other driver there too - Massa in my view is not going to last long - Alonso is in the process of demolishing him - using a Senna tactic.

Maybe by that time Bianchi will be ready for f1, but if not, Mark - perhaps a former world champion - could see out his twilight years as an f1 driver and ramp up his post grand prix career worth quite a lot!

Just a thought :-]

[Rodster]

If the story has some truth to it - Briatore to replace Domenicali eventually?
Alonso may be trying to work according to the Schumi formula. And why not?

Flavio is an excellent manager and if Webber is still aound why not have his other driver there too - Massa in my view is not going to last long - Alonso is in the process of demolishing him - using a Senna tactic.

Maybe by that time Bianchi will be ready for f1, but if not, Mark - perhaps a former world champion - could see out his twilight years as an f1 driver and ramp up his post grand prix career worth quite a lot!

Just a thought :-]

I would not be surprised by this move and it actually makes sense. Briatore has always preached the #1 favored driver approach and Alonso prefers that. Briatore is Italian and is quite the opposite of Domenicali in personality. To me Domenicali has always appeared as too nice for such a high profile team.

I also think Massa is on his way out and when it does happen he will rue not saying FU to Ferrari and making it hard if not impossible for his teammate to pass him in Germany. Massa deserves better and is a solid driver but he has been pegged as #2. Too bad they couldn't just tell him that.

[Mia 01]

That´s right, the rumour in Italy is that felipe will be sacked and ferrari rehire Kimi.

http://translate.google.fi/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.derapate.it%2Farticolo%2Ff1-2011-ferrari-la-folle-idea-di-raikkonen-al-posto-di-massa%2F19151%2F

[Roamy]

That´s right, the rumour in Italy is that felipe will be sacked and ferrari rehire Kimi.

http://translate.google.fi/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.derapate.it%2Farticolo%2Ff1-2011-ferrari-la-folle-idea-di-raikkonen-al-posto-di-massa%2F19151%2F

Well if you believe that Flavio will be taking over the reins at Ferrari then I doubt you will see Kimi there. Alonso will move to the solid number 1 position and Massa will have to agree to lapdog status or be replaced by someone who will accept that position. Any we all know there are many!!

[Rodster]

Well if you believe that Flavio will be taking over the reins at Ferrari then I doubt you will see Kimi there. Alonso will move to the solid number 1 position and Massa will have to agree to lapdog status or be replaced by someone who will accept that position. Any we all know there are many!!

Absolutely agree with you and Alonso would not want Kimi on his team anyways. Kimi is just too good to agree to that. Although I don't dispute the rumor it's just that I don't see that happening.

That's why I think Red Bull or Renault would be the better fit for Kimi.

[DexDexter]

That´s right, the rumour in Italy is that felipe will be sacked and ferrari rehire Kimi.

http://translate.google.fi/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.derapate.it%2Farticolo%2Ff1-2011-ferrari-la-folle-idea-di-raikkonen-al-posto-di-massa%2F19151%2F

That would be quite interesting but highly unlikely I'd say.

[steveaki13]

I know it would never happen, but a Fernando v Kimi at Ferrari would be monumental.

[Rodster]

I know it would never happen, but a Fernando v Kimi at Ferrari would be monumental.

I don't think Alonso would ever agree to Kimi as a teammate. Kimi would hurt his ego.

[truefan72]

here is what I see happening

kimi to renault
Massa to sauber or Lotus or Mercedes if MSC retires
Petrov to Ferrari

Heidfeld to Lotus or back to reserve driver

[ioan]

here is what I see happening
...
Petrov to Ferrari
...

Most probable given Santander's demands. ;)

[Saint Devote]

Come, come gentleman do not get ridiculous now.

Petrov has more chance successfully climbing Mount Everest in slippers than becoming a Ferrari driver.

Similarly, nevermind, Massa, but anyone else other than Rosberg and Schumi driving for Mercedes in grands prix is just not going to happen.

The Schumacher contract is a three year one and given the bizarre limitation on testing the process of evolving a competitive car if it is NOT ideal, out of the box, makes for a very drawn out process.

Previously Schumi had the tools of testing morning til night in between races, now - well, there is not even the sound of an f1 car being started!

And Mclaren at various times during the Prost-Senna years, to remain competitive, used two test teams at two circuits - usually Silverstone and Pembrey - to arrive at solutions. Although Senna detested testing so Prost, Palmer and Pirro used to do most of it.

Do not underestimate Schumi - which you are along with many that ought to know better.

This is a bedding in year for Schumacher - just as brakes are done. So wait and see - but before that it is essential a competitive car be constructed for 2011, otherwise it will become a mission in futility and likely that Schumi could walk away - and nobody would blame him other than his usual detractors.

Kimi to Renault? I dont believe that - why? Kubica will dominate the team because not only is he quick but he has the ATTITUDE. He wants to win. He thinks of racing only.

Quite simply - Renault does not need Raikkonen. Especially a driver that has absolutely no interest in the team and will never try and harder than he feels like.

You think Boullier and for that matter all the other teams that could sign Raikkonen have forgotten his attitude at Ferrari? No.

It is Raikkonen that has to change and show that that is so - Kimi mostly, destroyed his image that was built over the seasons in 2009.

Maybe Renault would like him for Spa - but thats not possible.

[pallone col bracciale]

Magnificent effort for Alonso today.

[Tazio]

Magnificent effort for Alonso today. :s ailor: That guy Fred, he is a rather clever fellow :bandit:

[F1boat]

Magnificent effort for Alonso today.

Yes. I hope that his car will be OK tomorrow. :(

[Tazio]

Yes. I hope that his car will be OK tomorrow. :( This is only the second race on that lump, and it's not like he really tortured it at Monza. They have had some electronic gremlins but I think that and the gearbox are not anything to be overly concerned with. I'm more concerned with him getting a good start off the line. This track is going to force the McLarens to prove they have the ability to conserve their options. The Bulls are in good shape in this arena, and Webber has a new lump. The Mac's have managed their tires magnificently so far this season but I expect this track to give them more degradation so the Boss or JB need to get Fred early. Of course just about anything else in the world can happen :grenade: :dozey:

[F1boat]

LOL, great car, absolutely amazing, awesome driver. I AM SO HAPPY!!!

[donKey jote]

Ferrari/Alonso are back :D

(btw Massa to Sauber, Kubi to Ferrari)

[UltimateDanGTR]

Unfortunatly for me, Alonso is back on form.

and on fire. He's still an arrogant __________ (insert your own word of choice here) though

[F1boat]

Confident, yeah, arrogant, I think not. :) Actually from the interviews this year he seems to be humble.

[donKey jote]

Unfortunatly for me, Alonso is back on form.

and on fire. He's still an arrogant __________ (insert your own word of choice here) though

spic ? :p :dozey:

[UltimateDanGTR]

Confident, yeah, arrogant, I think not. :) Actually from the interviews this year he seems to be humble.

maybe after some of his mistakes earlier this year he should be......but I still don't like his attitude sometimes, Hockenheim being a prime example.

The thing that really bugs me is that he really wouldn't like someone like Kubica as a team mate and maybe wouldn't allow such a thing, but I feel Kubica is good enough for a drive at Ferrari. That's what gets me: sometimes I feel i thinks he is the new king of ferrari.

EDIT: donkey: If you like :D

[donKey jote]

That's what gets me: sometimes I feel i thinks he is the new king of ferrari.


Haven't you heard? He IS :p

And he's good friends with Kubi so no probs there either :)

[steveaki13]

Alonso done very well today.

Congradulations to Ferrari fans.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Haven't you heard? He IS :p

And he's good friends with Kubi so no probs there either :)

Well, If he got involved in who else the team hired as drivers, then for me 'the king' would be out of place.

And I'd love to see alonso and kubica at Ferrari, I really would.

[Tazio]

Well, If he got involved in who else the team hired as drivers, then for me 'the king' would be out of place.

And I'd love to see alonso and kubica at Ferrari, I really would.

Take it somewhere else bro. Fred broke out a can of whip-@$$ this weekend. End of story!

[Tazio]

spic ? :p :dozey:
:s ailor: Hijo de puta :)

[Rodster]

Take it somewhere else bro. Fred broke out a can of whip-@$$ this weekend. End of story!

I'm not a Fred fan but the dude destroyed the field. It's one thing to say Ferrari handicapped Massa but when you beat down the competition from start to finish you have to tip your hat to the guy. Love him or hate him he's now the favorite to win the WDC. Both he and Ferrari have peaked at the right time.

[Roamy]

Take it somewhere else bro. Fred broke out a can of whip-@$$ this weekend. End of story!
:up: :up: :up:

[Mia 01]

He did well today but he will take a ten place grid penalty the next races.

[Tazio]

He did well today but he will take a ten place grid penalty the next races.Thankyou so much for that! :p :


I'm not a Fred fan but the dude destroyed the field. It's one thing to say Ferrari handicapped Massa but when you beat down the competition from start to finish you have to tip your hat to the guy. Love him or hate him he's now the favorite to win the WDC. Both he and Ferrari have peaked at the right time.Way to man-up bro you have been critical of him and it takes b@lls to give credit some times. I don't think he is the favorite right now. If it wasn't for the engine situation he would be. But Ferrari deserves a lot of the credit. They managed a near catastrophe in Quali session two yesterday. Suddenly Stefano D doesn't look so Freakin &#8217]http://www.formula1.com/video/?inptC=Italy&inptY=2010&inptT=Race%20Edit[/url]

[F1boat]

maybe after some of his mistakes earlier this year he should be......but I still don't like his attitude sometimes, Hockenheim being a prime example.

The thing that really bugs me is that he really wouldn't like someone like Kubica as a team mate and maybe wouldn't allow such a thing, but I feel Kubica is good enough for a drive at Ferrari. That's what gets me: sometimes I feel i thinks he is the new king of ferrari.

EDIT: donkey: If you like :D

He should be IMO. This tactic in my opinion is better and more efficient - with strong team leader. Of course, the other driver must be cautioned about this policy before signing the contract.
I personally am happy with Alonso and Massa driving for Ferrari. Kubica - I wish him best luck in Renault!

[Rodster]

I don't think he is the favorite right now.

I think he has to be. Both he and Ferrari have leapfrogged Adrian Newey and Red Bull and are now taking it to them. I gotta hand it to Aldo Nova, I mean Costa. For too long the idea has been that Italians running Ferrari couldn't get it done and it appears that has all changed.

[F1boat]

The engine situation is worrying, though. Still, I want to believe...

[Tazio]

The engine situation is worrying, though. Still, I want to believe...I definately think he can win. I just don't think he is the favorite. And you can't count the Boss out of this yet either.
You were the one that was concerned about the lump. That one has to be toast with Monza and this race on it. They need to pray for rain in Japan :idea:

[jens]

I must admit that it would be quite annoying if a driver, won I wanted to win the WDC the least, eventually comes out on top after being nowhere in mid-season. But it looks like it's going to be that way. :mark: The whole competition keeps collapsing around him (Alonso 50 pts, Hamilton 0 from the last two races!), while Alonso is coming back to force exactly when he usually does - the decisive phase of the season. And two races in a row he nails the strategy and everything else just brilliantly to come out on top in a tight fight. Oh well - why can't others be that masterfully calm and consistent when it counts! Frustrating also from Vettel's point of view, the perennial loser, who always narrowly misses out of wins...

Anyway, that would be Alonso's 3rd WDC already, while the rest would be on a single one at best. Damn, after Schumacher's period I don't want another driver owning the competition, but a level playing field instead!! :p :

By the way, just found out that Alonso is now tied with Clark and Lauda in terms of race wins (25). If Ferrari stays that strong for years to come, Alonso is likely to end up in Top3 by the end of his career in that department.

[F1boat]

Ha, we can not predict what will happen in the next race, we can't be sure about next year! But I do keep my fingers crossed for Fernando and the mighty Ferrari team.

[Tazio]

Ha, we can not predict what will happen in the next race, we can't be sure about next year! But I do keep my fingers crossed for Fernando :s ailor: and the mighty Ferrari team. :s ailor:.

[donKey jote]

:s ailor: Hijo de puta :)
and your mama melamama :D :bandit:

[mstillhere]

He should be IMO. This tactic in my opinion is better and more efficient - with strong team leader. Of course, the other driver must be cautioned about this policy before signing the contract.
I personally am happy with Alonso and Massa driving for Ferrari. Kubica - I wish him best luck in Renault!

I agree with you. Ferrari's philosophy IMO is to find a pilot able to bring to the brand as many victories as possible. MS was a good example and maeby now with FA.

Ferrari always need a pilot able to talk to the engineers closely and to developpe the car as much as possible not to just sit in it every Sunday like KR did. As shallow as it may soud, Ferrari are not in the business to help pilots to become famous. They need the pilots to make Ferrari famous instead. (and from a certain perspective McLaren is on the same page with Ferrari on this) So as long as Alonso is able to win and take Ferrari to the podium he can definetly count on Ferrari to give him preferential treatment.
It's way fine by me :)

[555-04Q2]

Great weekend for Ferrari and especially Alonso. Bravo!!! The WDC is looking very good now, let's hope the engines hold out for the last 4 races!

[pallone col bracciale]

Quite simply, that was a brilliant performance yesterday.

Only a fool would consider Alonso over-rated. The whole weekend showed why Ferrari paid the money to get a real team leader.

Forza Ferrari!

But Red Bull are still favourite, I think.

[pallone col bracciale]

I agree with you. Ferrari's philosophy IMO is to find a pilot able to bring to the brand as many victories as possible. MS was a good example and maeby now with FA.

Ferrari always need a pilot able to talk to the engineers closely and to developpe the car as much as possible not to just sit in it every Sunday like KR did. As shallow as it may soud, Ferrari are not in the business to help pilots to become famous. They need the pilots to make Ferrari famous instead. (and from a certain perspective McLaren is on the same page with Ferrari on this) So as long as Alonso is able to win and take Ferrari to the podium he can definetly count on Ferrari to give him preferential treatment.
It's way fine by me :)

Exactimondo!

[F1boat]

Quite simply, that was a brilliant performance yesterday.

Only a fool would consider Alonso over-rated. The whole weekend showed why Ferrari paid the money to get a real team leader.

Forza Ferrari!

But Red Bull are still favourite, I think.

Yes, Red Bull are undoubtedly the favorites, but I keep my fingers crossed for Alonso!

[Rodster]

The key for Alonso are his engines, he has two used ones left if i'm not mistaken. If they hold up and can perform then he's the favorite.

[Tazio]

"We do these things not because they are easy but because they are hard!" :s mokin:


http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/318/rai120100926160146.jpg

[wedge]

Forza Ferrari!

I hope so called Tifosi are still ashamed of themselves

[Roamy]

I think at suz i would just stuff a new engine in. He can make up the places there.

[F1boat]

Forza Ferrari!

I hope so called Tifosi are still ashamed of themselves

?! why ?!

[Tazio]

?! why ?!

It has always been apparent where wedge's sympathies lie.
He is a pretty cool shark, but you should know which rat/rats that jumped ship he is referring to. You're a published Novelist. It is a very thinly veiled allegory. As for any, and all Band-Wagoner’s I for one welcome you as there is plenty of room. Where is Tinchote? The latest developements would suit him to the ground.
I miss Tamburello :mad:
That fool could talk some serious smack. Reincarnated? :idea:

:vader: May the Forza be with you

:s ailor: Hail Caesar

http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20061029elpepudep_3/XLCO/Ies/Fernando_Alonso_recibe_calor_Oviedo.jpg

[pino]

Forza Ferrari!

I hope so called Tifosi are still ashamed of themselves


What for ? :confused:

[wedge]

What for ? :confused:

Sorry, I meant some Tifosi after the German GP

[pino]

Sorry, I meant some Tifosi after the German GP

Those were not tifosi ;)

[F1boat]

You're a published Novelist.

But not too successful, unfortunately ;)

[pino]

That means over 70% of the posters on the Ferrari forum are pretenders and frauds!! The cheek of it!! lol :D :)

More than 70%, as I only consider 5 or 6 active members in here as true tifosi ;)

[Tazio]

I have never visited that forum. What was the question in the poll? :rolleyes:

[pallone col bracciale]

I have never visited that forum. What was the question in the poll? :rolleyes:

"Who is the most unpopular current Ferrari driver for English Mclaren Trolls?"

[Tazio]

"Who is the most unpopular current Ferrari driver for English Mclaren Trolls?"

So are you saying it was a heads up for FA and his enthusiastic followers that the Anglo-Mob is looking to shove a cap up someones ^<< :p :

[pallone col bracciale]

No, Mr Tazio, what I relate it as that I would be wary of Ferrari.com forums after such a English-media led witch-hunt against the Scuderia as witnessed post Hockenheim.

After all, when we get somebody here claiming Alonso is over-rated after Spa, a complete knee-jerk reaction fuelled by dislike, and those people have strangely been subdued since Monza, you have to question the motives of certain posters in every forum.

[pallone col bracciale]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87071

A correct sentence, but what a shame this man will not actually spend any time in prison.

[pallone col bracciale]

http://www.ferrari.com/English/Community/Forum/Pages/Forum.aspx

The thread entitled WMSC Decision shows no dissent.

We can presume the infiltration by lovers of the Anglo-Mafia masquerading as Tifosi was short-lived once the reality dawned.

Typical trolling, and not worth any sensible consideration. Certainly not worth claiming 70% support of your anti Scuderia view.

But, when you have no other stick to beat with, a weak twig is better than a leaf.

[Tazio]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/87071

A correct sentence, but what a shame this man will not actually spend any time in prison.

Good timing ;) :p :dozey: :s mokin:

[Tazio]

http://www.ferrari.com/English/Community/Forum/Pages/Forum.aspx

The thread entitled WMSC Decision shows no dissent.

We can presume the infiltration by lovers of the Anglo-Mafia masquerading as Tifosi was short-lived once the reality dawned.

Typical trolling, and not worth any sensible consideration. Certainly not worth claiming 70% support of your anti Scuderia view.

But, when you have no other stick to beat with, a weak twig is better than a leaf.
:s ailor: Graaaaaaaaazie!

[pallone col bracciale]

Prego.

[pallone col bracciale]

Tazio, here is a gem of a link from Ferrari.com -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/jul/21/formulaone.motorsports

"According to Dennis, Kovalainen was simply told that Hamilton was much quicker and he took the decision himself to allow his team-mate by. "The only thing we advise drivers is the respective pace of the other driver and they ultimately call it," the team principal said. "Lewis was nearly a second quicker than Heikki through the race and when he was told Lewis was quicker he just let him past. "He knew that was the only way because the longer he would have held up Lewis the more difficult it would have been for him to have regained the lead. It was a tremendous sporting gesture and it's what being in a racing team is about. True team-mates do these things because that's the way they are."
There is unlikely to be any follow-up from the officials, with Dennis explaining: "Heikki was troubled by oversteer and wasn't able to match Lewis's pace today. But it is a mark of both his professionalism and his sportsmanship that, aware of his situation relative to Lewis's, he made it relatively straightforward for Lewis to pass him. It's a joy to have two drivers who are not only super-competitive but also super-cooperative."


As expected, any criticism of Ferrari by Mclaren fans is weak and unprincipled. Much like Mr Dennis and Mr Hamilton, both of whom are proven liars and hypocrites.

It is no wonder, perhaps, that their supporters follow suit?

Forza Ferrari.

[Tazio]

I assume Phil Prew also apologised over the radio to Hekki, and then Heikki was visibly upset in the post race interviews throwing doubt in the minds of the worlds press? Errrrrr no..lol

The difference between the two scenario's, as was pointed out just a couple of months ago was the fact that Mclaren carefully briefed their drivers before the race and there was no need for careless radio transmission's, and upset drivers who had instructions sprung on them.

Some teams are just better at executing team orders than others and do not make the viewing public aware of just how they do it. Ferrari unfortunately scored a massive own goal and brought something to the attention of the FIA which many of the teams probably didn't want disclosed..OWN GOAL!! ;)

I actually don't care about the drama. That is why I stay away from the tabloids.
There are too many Italians that are overly concerned with image. (is that the "own goal" that you are concerned about?)
And if the real difference is that Heike doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve like Massa or that Ferrari should have been more profoundly in collusion, than I don't see any substantive difference.
At the end of the day Ferrari made a decision in real time (to ignore the rule) as opposed to it being premeditated.
They got a fine and paid it
:s ailor: I hold these truths to be self evident
This whole thing reeks of one of Italy's greatest contributions to the English language.

Vendetta

Hypocrisy is in the eye of the beholder on this one!

[airshifter]

At the end of the day Ferrari made a decision in real time (to ignore the rule) as opposed to it being premeditated.
They got a fine and paid it
:s ailor: I hold these truths to be self evident


This is what amazes me. When someone deems "not Tifosi" makes such a statement, they are simply called haters, biased, blinded by Mclaren, etc, etc, etc.

You can easily support Ferrari and what they bring to F1 in terms of history and tradition, yet choose not to ignore when they cheat. The same applies to any other team.

I thought the fine for teams orders was rather stiff though. Would have been much cheaper to simply send someone to the copy shop and give Mclaren a full set of plans for the F10. :laugh:

[markabilly]

It .
I miss Tamburello :mad:


Just reload.......

and if not, there is always pilleome de braciole......

[Tazio]

This is what amazes me. When someone deems "not Tifosi" makes such a statement, they are simply called haters, biased, blinded by Mclaren, etc, etc, etc.

You can easily support Ferrari and what they bring to F1 in terms of history and tradition, yet choose not to ignore when they cheat. The same applies to any other team.

I thought the fine for teams orders was rather stiff though. Would have been much cheaper to simply send someone to the copy shop and give Mclaren a full set of plans for the F10. :laugh:
I deem myself a H*** Sapien :rolleyes: :dozey: :)

[Tazio]

I deem myself a H*** Sapien :rolleyes: :dozey: :)

I was born an American as were my parents. Actually what I really think I mean is that there is this mentality that how you are perceived is so important that it clouds the reality of many people that are 20 years or more younger than me. I have noticed this about Italians here on visa that I know personally. They seem to be overly "concerned" about these things imo. I don't know any Poms but I suspect it pervades the comercialization of western culture, Americans I know mostly don't give a flying F*** about it but I'm sure the younger ones are every bit as stupid in this arena.

[F1boat]

Tazio, here is a gem of a link from Ferrari.com -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/jul/21/formulaone.motorsports

"According to Dennis, Kovalainen was simply told that Hamilton was much quicker and he took the decision himself to allow his team-mate by. "The only thing we advise drivers is the respective pace of the other driver and they ultimately call it," the team principal said. "Lewis was nearly a second quicker than Heikki through the race and when he was told Lewis was quicker he just let him past. "He knew that was the only way because the longer he would have held up Lewis the more difficult it would have been for him to have regained the lead. It was a tremendous sporting gesture and it's what being in a racing team is about. True team-mates do these things because that's the way they are."
There is unlikely to be any follow-up from the officials, with Dennis explaining: "Heikki was troubled by oversteer and wasn't able to match Lewis's pace today. But it is a mark of both his professionalism and his sportsmanship that, aware of his situation relative to Lewis's, he made it relatively straightforward for Lewis to pass him. It's a joy to have two drivers who are not only super-competitive but also super-cooperative."


As expected, any criticism of Ferrari by Mclaren fans is weak and unprincipled. Much like Mr Dennis and Mr Hamilton, both of whom are proven liars and hypocrites.

It is no wonder, perhaps, that their supporters follow suit?

Forza Ferrari.

This link, incredible. Now I am absolutely, 100% sure that McLaren fans are hypocrites. Just fanboys, really, or partisan crowd.

[DexDexter]

This link, incredible. Now I am absolutely, 100% sure that McLaren fans are hypocrites. Just fanboys, really, or partisan crowd.

You're like the wind, one never knows which way it blows.

[SGWilko]

Tazio, here is a gem of a link from Ferrari.com -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/jul/21/formulaone.motorsports

"According to Dennis, Kovalainen was simply told that Hamilton was much quicker and he took the decision himself to allow his team-mate by. "The only thing we advise drivers is the respective pace of the other driver and they ultimately call it," the team principal said. "Lewis was nearly a second quicker than Heikki through the race and when he was told Lewis was quicker he just let him past. "He knew that was the only way because the longer he would have held up Lewis the more difficult it would have been for him to have regained the lead. It was a tremendous sporting gesture and it's what being in a racing team is about. True team-mates do these things because that's the way they are."
There is unlikely to be any follow-up from the officials, with Dennis explaining: "Heikki was troubled by oversteer and wasn't able to match Lewis's pace today. But it is a mark of both his professionalism and his sportsmanship that, aware of his situation relative to Lewis's, he made it relatively straightforward for Lewis to pass him. It's a joy to have two drivers who are not only super-competitive but also super-cooperative."


As expected, any criticism of Ferrari by Mclaren fans is weak and unprincipled. Much like Mr Dennis and Mr Hamilton, both of whom are proven liars and hypocrites.

It is no wonder, perhaps, that their supporters follow suit?

Forza Ferrari.

:bigcry: :bigcry:

[ArrowsFA1]

Déjà vu - a feeling that one has been through all of this previously :look:

[SGWilko]

Déjà vu - a feeling that one has been through all of this previously :look:

Not just me thinks that then......

[Dave B]

Still: $100,000 for 7 points is pretty good value. Every little helps :p

[SGWilko]

Still: $100,000 for 7 points is pretty good value. Every little helps :p

Think of the clubcard points you'd get with that payment...... :crazy: