The Ferrari thread ! [Archive] - Page 6

pallone col bracciale

27th July 2010, 15:50

I appreciate that English may not be your first language so I will translate into clearer words.

They are racing under the teams direction and not their own

This is in response to the subject of team orders.

So, big white chief comes out and confirms the drivers race for the team, not themselves and it's always been the same.

I am sure the hard of understanding will quite happily claim he hasn't come out and said "Massa was ordered to move over" but if you are the sort interested in Polemics rather than debate, then I am wasting my time trying to communicate with you.

Grazie Mille.

Clearly he has not stated anything about team orders being directly used. Clearly he has said that Ferrari drivers race knowig that the Ferrari teams interests come before their own personal interests.

There is a clear difference between this and him stating that it a team order was given.

So, thank you.

There is no proof.

Without this, there can be no conviction and innocence is the only verdict a fair person can give.

Dave B

27th July 2010, 15:57

Without this, there can be no conviction and innocence is the only verdict a fair person can give.
You keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. Millions of viewers know exactly what they saw, and the stewards have found Ferrari guilty of breaching the team orders rule and bringing the sport into disrepute.

Retro Formula 1

27th July 2010, 16:13

You keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. Millions of viewers know exactly what they saw, and the stewards have found Ferrari guilty of breaching the team orders rule and bringing the sport into disrepute.

Precisely.

I can't see why some Ferrari fans are defending this. It reflects badly on the team and surely it's better to have 2 drivers fully committed and incentivized than one driver knowing he's going to be a lap dog.

What is more shocking is the refusal of Ferrari management to step back from the confrontation and diffuse the s**t storm. It's almost like they are daring the FIA to act???

The Stewards gave them the maximum fine they could and referred the matter to the WMSC to finish. I would think that Ferrari would want to keep their nose clean.

pallone col bracciale

27th July 2010, 16:28

You keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. Millions of viewers know exactly what they saw, and the stewards have found Ferrari guilty of breaching the team orders rule and bringing the sport into disrepute.

Please state specifically when an order was given!

You cannot, as there was no instruction.

You can keep telling yourself there was, but nobody heard it. None of the millions of viewers heard anything other than information.

Good luck in a courtroom with that!

You would lose.

Retro Formula 1

27th July 2010, 16:39

Please state specifically when an order was given!

You cannot, as there was no instruction.

You can keep telling yourself there was, but nobody heard it. None of the millions of viewers heard anything other than information.

Good luck in a courtroom with that!

You would lose.

It isn't a court of Law..... Yet!

However, they have already been judged and found guilty. If they believed they were innocent, they would appeal instead of just accepting it.

ioan

27th July 2010, 18:00

Without this, there can be no conviction and innocence is the only verdict a fair person can give.

Maybe that's why Berlusconi and many others are still free to do what they please. :\

Mia 01

27th July 2010, 18:07

To defend the undefendable takes heroes.

pino

27th July 2010, 18:14

Maybe that's why Berlusconi and many others are still free to do what they please. :\

What Berlusconi has to do with this thread ???

Dave B

27th July 2010, 18:25

An Italian who thinks he's above the law? No, I've no idea what he's got to do with this thread... :p

Mia 01

27th July 2010, 18:32

I must admit that the Romans has a great hertigate, they layed the ground to the modern Europe, and perhaps even the modern F1.

pallone col bracciale

27th July 2010, 18:34

Case closed but you're a bit of a wally that likes argueing for the sake of it so I'm off :wave:

Excuse me, because I have a different opinion is no excuse for you to use personal attack.

I respectful ask you to stop.

pallone col bracciale

27th July 2010, 18:46

Its funny how every media outlet, millions of fans, the FIA, and several current drivers have all jumped to the same conclusion though isn't it?

Junping to a conclusion....and without the important evidence to prove an order.

A conviction without evidence....how would you feel if it was you?

Mia 01

27th July 2010, 18:47

This was a obvious team order, in fact, "the teamorder".

Even my nine year old twin boys knowed that. Ofcourse, they are clever but no wunder kids.

truefan72

27th July 2010, 19:43

Junping to a conclusion....and without the important evidence to prove an order.

A conviction without evidence....how would you feel if it was you?

when I was a young man I i used to do sales I learned one important lesson.

"there are only two kinds of people who you cannot sell to. The ignorant and those with no money"

This mantra seems to ring true on these forums, where the only kinds of people you cannot reason with are those who are ignorant or in denial.

I don't know which one you fit in, but it seems to me that you have manged to convince yourself of something that even my mother noticed watching her first F1 race ever! Asking me whether it was normal to let another driver pass you because he is your teammate and if the other guy does not want to win?

Now the LdM has confirmed that much and you are still in denial, but you sir, still think nothing untoward happened. Pointless trying to have a discussion then.

ioan

27th July 2010, 19:55

An Italian who thinks he's above the law? No, I've no idea what he's got to do with this thread... :p

Well spotted! ;)

ioan

27th July 2010, 19:58

when I was a young man I i used to do sales I learned one important lesson.

"there are only two kinds of people who you cannot sell to. The ignorant and those with no money"

This mantra seems to ring true on these forums, where the only kinds of people you cannot reason with are those who are ignorant or in denial.

I don't know which one you fit in, but it seems to me that you have manged to convince yourself of something that even my mother noticed watching her first F1 race ever! Asking me whether it was normal to let another driver pass you because he is your teammate and if the other guy does not want to win?

Now the LdM has confirmed that much and you are still in denial, but you sir, still think nothing untoward happened. Pointless trying to have a discussion then.

3 years ago I thought that only the hardiest McLaren fans can deny what Martin and Ron themselves were saying. Now I know that some Ferrari fans aren't better either.

DexDexter

27th July 2010, 20:13

An Italian who thinks he's above the law? No, I've no idea what he's got to do with this thread... :p

He IS above the law, like many others. :rolleyes:

pallone col bracciale

27th July 2010, 20:43

I don't know which one you fit in, but it seems to me that you have manged to convince yourself of something that even my mother noticed watching her first F1 race ever! Asking me whether it was normal to let another driver pass you because he is your teammate and if the other guy does not want to win?

Now the LdM has confirmed that much and you are still in denial, but you sir, still think nothing untoward happened. Pointless trying to have a discussion then.

Luca confirmed nothing other than Ferrari drivers are expected to be team players.

And you, my firend, have convinced yourself without the important factor....proof.

Until you provide proof, you have no claim to be correct.

"Fernando is faster than you".....please explain the order and instruction in this message, as those words do not include an order or instruction.

Until you provide proof of a spoken order, then there was no team order.

pallone col bracciale

27th July 2010, 20:48

Using the phrase 'jumping to the same conclusion' is poking fun at the irony of how obvious team orders were in this case. The evidence was the there for all to see.

so prove it.

Provide the spoken word transcript where an order was given.

To be correct, you have to have this evidence.

Anything else is what a lawyer calls "supposizioni".

A Governing Body will need more than that to bring a punishment, especially one which lost a case against Briatore in a French courtroom.

ioan

27th July 2010, 21:02

"Fernando is faster than you".....please explain the order and instruction in this message, as those words do not include an order or instruction.

What if you quoted the whole radio transmission, not only a part of it?

pallone col bracciale

27th July 2010, 21:07

What if you quoted the whole radio transmission, not only a part of it?

There was no instruction or order in that either, so why should I?

If there was an instruction, an order, perhaps you could be so kind as to provide the quote?

pallone col bracciale

27th July 2010, 21:09

Well on this basis Briatore was an innocent man because he is yet to admit Renault had any involvement with Piquet's crash and no actual order was given. Although they were found guilty and the vast majority knew what had happened, there was no proof. Maybe has visit to Maranello last week was to offer some advice on how to give coded orders without dropping everyone in the brown stuff? But then again maybe not because everyone is innocent.

Innocent until proven guilty.

It is a fair and just thing, no?

You have yet to provide the proof. Prove it, then you can be correct.

ioan

27th July 2010, 21:26

Innocent until proven guilty.

It is a fair and just thing, no?

A great principle, sadly often misused as a cover for scum.

ioan

27th July 2010, 21:29

Its not just about what was said my friend. Its about analysing the whole situation and series of events. If I walk up to you with 4 days worth of beard growth and tell you that I am a woman and then wink as I say it, what does that suggest? I'm either pulling your leg or you're going to have to pull my pants off to prove that I'm lying or take my word for it with a head full of doubts.. Body language.. ;)

:up: Excellent one! I couldn't stop laughing after reading it.

Seriously, the Ferrari fans are taking as for idiots just like Domenicali and co. They think that people stop at appearances and never search beneath.

Mia 01

27th July 2010, 21:39

Some ferrari fans has an agenda, and they hope it will pays of at the end of the year.

CNR

28th July 2010, 00:00

what would be better
massa wins race 1 year to the day that he allmost lots his life
cheat from spygate and crashgate gets handed a win

Saint Devote

28th July 2010, 03:34

what would be better
massa wins race 1 year to the day that he allmost lots his life
cheat from spygate and crashgate gets handed a win

I can only imagine how the self-righteous "fans" of f1 aka: the Massanites, would have attacked Senna and what they would have called him ........

Not to mention what these hypocrites would have called Jack Brabham, Fangio, Schumacher - well the list of teams and people who indulged in team orders is rather l-o-n-g and illustrous.

Why don't all y'all go and watch tennis or even worse, golf.

Saint Devote

28th July 2010, 03:43

The best that can and should happen is for ALL the teams to ignore the team order rule - Bernie is on their side and Ferrari is now the de facto leader in the FOTA.

And with Jean Todt as FIA chief, Ferrari can expect a fair deal because obviously he can never be one of the Ferrari haters.

Primarily I suspect that this tirade against Ferrari is being led by the British contingent. They see it as some way of getting back at the years when Schumi made them suffer!

And the history of Ferrari and the officials at British tracks is not exactly love and light.

markabilly

28th July 2010, 03:48

I can only imagine how the self-righteous "fans" of f1 aka: the Massanites, would have attacked Senna and what they would have called him ........

Not to mention what these hypocrites would have called Jack Brabham, Fangio, Schumacher - well the list of teams and people who indulged in team orders is rather l-o-n-g and illustrous.

Why don't all y'all go and watch tennis or even worse, golf.
and what mr. morally justice here don't get is that these were rules NOW, and not back then, not even in Austria in 2002

and Luca himself says.....they done it, so what ? we lie and then when everyone but a few of the blind, see right through it, then I say, enough of the hypocrisy, we do things as we have always done (ie team orders) and we do not care for your agruments.

Ferrari fans deserve better than a cheap, lieing cheater who is no different than Flavio, being at Ferrari.

markabilly

28th July 2010, 03:50

Innocent until proven guilty.

It is a fair and just thing, no?

You have yet to provide the proof. Prove it, then you can be correct.
Tamb???? good to have you back,thought you were banned forever, but i would think you, of all people, would be ashamed that Luca has now PUBLICLY put himself on the same or lower level as Ron Dennis and Flavio....... :rolleyes:

Saint Devote

28th July 2010, 03:57

and what mr. morally justice here don't get is that these were rules NOW, and not back then, not even in Austria in 2002

and Luca himself says.....they done it, so what ? we lie and then when everyone but a few of the blind, see right through it, then I say, enough of the hypocrisy, we do things as we have always done (ie team orders) and we do not care for your agruments.

Ferrari fans deserve better than a cheap, lieing cheater who is no different than Flavio, being at Ferrari.

So you are a rules and regulations wallah.

You see, theres the rub. I think culture has a lot to do with this. I am born and raised in Israel where rules and regulations are really guidelines - as it is in the rest of the mid-east.

Perhaps Luca is a an Israeli in disguise?

:D

Saint Devote

28th July 2010, 04:03

Massa to Renault in 2011 as the resentment builds and he is finally booted by the Scuderia along with Rob Smedley?

If the titles are settled with a grand prix or so to go - perhaps Jules Bianchi can be drafted in for a taste of f1 by the end of 2010?

Just a thought!

markabilly

28th July 2010, 04:06

So you are a rules and regulations wallah.

You see, theres the rub. I think culture has a lot to do with this. I am born and raised in Israel where rules and regulations are really guidelines - as it is in the rest of the mid-east.

Perhaps Luca is a an Israeli in disguise?

:D
funny, all those who are jewish that I have been around, are not cheap lieing cheaters, and certainly would not discuss a game involving rules agreed to by all of the participants, as though they were discussing the morality of guards in nazi concentration camps, and for me that is all the difference in the world.

For that reason, you and any real ferrari fans should be ashamed of Luca

F1boat

28th July 2010, 07:28

ArrowsFA1

28th July 2010, 08:53

Please state specifically when an order was given!

You cannot, as there was no instruction.

You can keep telling yourself there was, but nobody heard it. None of the millions of viewers heard anything other than information.

Good luck in a courtroom with that!

You would lose.
Ferrari went before the only courtroom that matters where F1 is concerned and this (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85552) was the result.

wmcot

28th July 2010, 09:06

Its funny how every media outlet, millions of fans, the FIA, and several current drivers have all jumped to the same conclusion though isn't it?

You mean like looking for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? No proof was ever found there either despite many nations assuming they were there.

wmcot

28th July 2010, 09:09

Ferrari fans deserve better than a cheap, lieing cheater who is no different than Flavio, being at Ferrari.

Yeah, he should be with the other ones at McLaren, Red Bull and Brawn/Mercedes! ;)

wmcot

28th July 2010, 09:11

pallone col bracciale

28th July 2010, 14:12

Ferrari went before the only courtroom that matters where F1 is concerned and this (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85552) was the result.

This is not the only courtroom that matters in F1.

The FIA learned this with Briatore.

A court has the power that the FIA does not, and FIA will need more evidence than supposition to be certain it will not be taken to court.

This is why you, like the FIA, need more proof before the WMSC before a judgement of guilt can be made.

Also, the WMSC can overturn a verdict of the steward. Do not forget this. Ferrari have not, i think.

It surprises me more people are not realistic to this, or to what the implication to FIA of a court case brought against them for decision made with no firm evidence would do.

Dave B

28th July 2010, 14:17

I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it pans out then.

In the blue corner you've got the race stewards, the FIA, millions of fans, and the wording of the regulations.

In the red corner you've got Alonso, Ferrari's senior management, and a handful of dyed-in-the-wool fans who can't comprehend that their beloved team is capable of doing anything wrong.

September 10th will be mighty interesting, that's for certain :D

pallone col bracciale

28th July 2010, 14:17

Its not just about what was said my friend. Its about analysing the whole situation and series of events. If I walk up to you with 4 days worth of beard growth and tell you that I am a woman and then wink as I say it, what does that suggest? I'm either pulling your leg or you're going to have to pull my pants off to prove that I'm lying or take my word for it with a head full of doubts.. Body language.. ;)

What you say is that I need to provide the proof that you are a man, yes? Or be in doubt?

I agree with this.

But I cannot provide the proof, so you may be a woman.

pallone col bracciale

28th July 2010, 14:19

Dave B

28th July 2010, 14:25

Well as I say let's wait and see. Any pretence that this is a meaningful debate evaporated many pages ago, and I have no desire to get into an argument.

ArrowsFA1

28th July 2010, 14:28

...It surprises me more people are not realistic to this, or to what the implication to FIA of a court case brought against them for decision made with no firm evidence would do.
The FIA is the law where F1 is concerned, until a participant decides to go outside of the sport. Are you suggesting that Ferrari may resort to this option? The absence of an appeal, and acceptance of the penalty, suggests they will not. That also suggests that it is unlikely that the WMSC will overturn one or both of the charges against Ferrari.

It may be your opinion that there was no firm evidence, but in the view of those who matter there was sufficient evidence, but as Dave says let's wait and see what the WMSC have to say.

pino

28th July 2010, 14:43

...and a handful of dyed-in-the-wool fans who can't comprehend that their beloved team is capable of doing anything wrong.

I never said Ferrari cannot do anything wrong, I've just said that what Ferrari did was not different from what other teams did... even this year.

pallone col bracciale

28th July 2010, 14:56

The FIA is the law where F1 is concerned, until a participant decides to go outside of the sport. Are you suggesting that Ferrari may resort to this option?

Yes.

This is, for me, precisely why the Scuderia did not appeal to the stewards. They wait for the WMSC to realise the implication of a verdict based on supposition only.

DexDexter

28th July 2010, 16:16

You mean like looking for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? No proof was ever found there either despite many nations assuming they were there.

Please don't insult our intelligence.

Saint Devote

29th July 2010, 03:26

I hope you are right. Massa deserves alot better.

Massa has never been mistreated by Ferrari. It was obvious after 25 laps or so that Alonso was quicker and being held up.

Everytime Alonso tried to go by the door was closed in no uncertain terms by Massa.

Alonso radioed to his pit that it was "ridiculous", and why? Because he refrained from getting into a tangle. Alonso did not want to end up colliding with Massa.

Nobody he stopped Massa - he has just not kept up with Alonso - as expected.

And he will not keep pace with Kubica either.

My post referred to his apparent indignation and self-pity and sulking that if he so upset - well then, he is free to leave Ferrari - IMMEDIATELY. Clearly the act that Massa put on was one out of petulance because to date, Massa will be racing in Hungary in a Ferrari on Sunday.

What Massa says and what Massa does is obviously not the same. Its time for Luca to inform Massa that being a legend in his own mind and reality is not the same thing.

Saint Devote

29th July 2010, 03:32

WMSC is a kangaroo court and should they rule severely against Ferrari, then as did Briatore, justice should be sought in the French courts.

wmcot

29th July 2010, 06:02

In the red corner you've got Alonso, Ferrari's senior management, and a handful of dyed-in-the-wool fans who can't comprehend that their beloved team is capable of doing anything wrong.

You forgot to mention a lot of corporate sponsors with billions invested in the team! Money is a magnet in the balance scales of F1 "justice."

Roamy

29th July 2010, 06:46

so they screw with Ferrari and Ferrari takes a few years off F1
Who is the loser???
Fans and MopHead and Teams

Like Brawn said "Give It Up"

SGWilko

29th July 2010, 09:49

The only good thing possibly to come of this situation is the abolition of the team orders rule, or the insertion of a 'don't take your paying public for fools and be blatant about it' clause to the rule currently in place.

After all, Ferrari getting back in the hunt adds another dimension to an otherwise excellent season, and banning or suspending them removes that aspect.

They have had the fine, tweak or remove the rule, and move on.

I didn't like the way the swap was made, and the way Massa was dumped on, but this is F1!

Dave B

29th July 2010, 09:59

They have had the fine, tweak or remove the rule, and move on.
You can't change the rule mid-season, that's unfair on the other teams who have conducted themselves properly.

Let's say the rule didn't exist at the start of the season: what would be to stop (say) Red Bull writing a #2 clause into Webber's contract and racing accordingly. Vettel (in this example) may have had a decent lead in the championship.

Hypothetical of course, but you can't change the rules halfway just becuase they don't happen to suit one team.

Certainly the rule needs looking at, but any changes should be for 2011 and beyond.

donKey jote

29th July 2010, 10:02

You can't change the rules?
OK, clarify them then :)

Mia 01

29th July 2010, 10:43

How is the engine situation in ferrari now. Theres nine races left, Monza and Spa is very demanding on engines.

donKey jote

29th July 2010, 10:44

bad... unless they find some loophole to give Alonso Massa's engines too :p

555-04Q2

29th July 2010, 15:53

You can't change the rule mid-season, that's unfair on the other teams who have conducted themselves properly.

No team in F1 conducts itself properly. They all try and screw each other and the rules/system every chance they get. There are no gentlemen in F1, just winners and losers. F1 is big business now, and I know very well how big business works.

ioan

31st July 2010, 10:33

Massa to Renault in 2011 as the resentment builds and he is finally booted by the Scuderia along with Rob Smedley?

Hopefully!

ioan

31st July 2010, 10:35

You forgot to mention a lot of corporate sponsors with billions invested in the team! Money is a magnet in the balance scales of F1 "justice."

And who wants to be associated with cheaters? Certainly not the corporate sponsors, just look how they left Renault withing a few days.

Dave B

31st July 2010, 12:35

Ferrari's principal sponsor market cigarettes to children in developing nations, I hardly think this registers on their ethical barometer :s

ioan

31st July 2010, 13:39

Ferrari's principal sponsor market cigarettes to children in developing nations, I hardly think this registers on their ethical barometer :s

You are right. I hope this hits Santander though, but banks aren't known for very high ethical standards either. :\

markabilly

31st July 2010, 15:01

Ferrari's principal sponsor market cigarettes to children in developing nations, I hardly think this registers on their ethical barometer :s
I am sure that Todt (who masterminded this deal with Marlboro) and Luca will both be giving that money back

But along will come the Saint Devetoed, and tells us, that it is natural law that mandates the manifest destiny of Ferrari and they need not obey such unjust regulations, and neither should their associates when it gets in the way of the law of revenue...err..opps I mean natural justice

Besides why deny the pleasures and benefits of a good fag to the young...

I mean that as the brits say it, as in cigarette

pallone col bracciale

31st July 2010, 21:05

Another good performance today.

No chance of matching Red Bulls, but important to be there to pick up pieces tomorrow, God willing.

pallone col bracciale

31st July 2010, 21:06

Ferrari's principal sponsor market cigarettes to children in developing nations, I hardly think this registers on their ethical barometer :s

Did you complian when they paid for Ron Dennis?

mstillhere

1st August 2010, 03:29

Ferrari's principal sponsor market cigarettes to children in developing nations, I hardly think this registers on their ethical barometer :s

That's really interesting information. Do you have a link you would share with us? I can't wait to get really detailed information about this.

mstillhere

1st August 2010, 03:35

No team in F1 conducts itself properly. They all try and screw each other and the rules/system every chance they get. There are no gentlemen in F1, just winners and losers. F1 is big business now, and I know very well how big business works.

Finally some words of wisdom. I'll definetly drink to that. A nice RED would do.

Roamy

1st August 2010, 04:02

Finally some words of wisdom. I'll definetly drink to that. A nice RED would do.

try benziger tribute

Dave B

1st August 2010, 09:23

That's really interesting information. Do you have a link you would share with us? I can't wait to get really detailed information about this.
Pretty common knowledge, but three seconds on Google found this example:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article2022928.ece

or this:

http://www.tobaccofreekids.org/reports/philipmorris/

In the interests of balance, they're not unique in this. BAT financed a team I happenned to support, so any accusations that I'm posting this out of anti-Ferrari bias are - as usual - without foundation.

Mia 01

14th August 2010, 17:40

The engine situation? FA is out.

Mia 01

17th August 2010, 09:05

I´m a bit sorry for my earlier remark, Seb is in the same boat as Fernando.

http://www.vivaf1.com/reliability.php

pallone col bracciale

17th August 2010, 19:34

The engine situation? FA is out.

It is not an ideal situation. Ferrari have said that they will use some engines only for Friday now, so the situation is managable so long as reliability is ok now.

No failure since early season may mean that problems are gone.

Hopefully.

pallone col bracciale

17th August 2010, 20:48

http://www.vivaf1.com/reliability.php

This shows Ferrari with the best reliability, 99.8% of race distance completed in all races this season.

It suggests that it is not reliability which has cost the Scuderia.

Dave B

17th August 2010, 21:37

That data only takes into account races. A failure in qualifying, for example, does not figure. Lamp posts and bikinis...

mstillhere

18th August 2010, 08:09

Pretty common knowledge, but three seconds on Google found this example:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article2022928.ece

or this:

http://www.tobaccofreekids.org/reports/philipmorris/

In the interests of balance, they're not unique in this. BAT financed a team I happenned to support, so any accusations that I'm posting this out of anti-Ferrari bias are - as usual - without foundation.

First I find highly crazy to associate or even trying to associate Ferrari with teenagers smoking and the plotting behind it. Second, F1 does not have races in Africa nor in the Czech republic, so I really don;t see how Ferrari contributes with the smoking in Nigeria and in teh Czech republic. Third, I am sure any kid in Nigheria as soon as a Ferrari :) :) :) and that space on top of the hood of the car they grabe a Marlboro right away. :) :)

Forth, if social issues and public health is the big concern, hum let's what can be said.
Ok..I got it: the F1 cars pollute a LOT and the huge amont of pollutants coming out the cars can and will cause cancer in the longs of the F! spectators. Let's see........ok...in the US it's illegal many states (including mine) to drive and talk on the cell phone at the same time. Therefore I find inappropriate for McLaren show the brand name of a famous cell phone company. It's an advertisement that can and will cause many car accidents and deaths including teenagers and minors. Etc.etc. etc..

The bottom of the line is wht you people say just biased opinions (at times slightly mitigated by someother factor), like for the wings issue. If Ferrari does it, then it MUST be wrong and illegal, and people wonder why are not they all in jail accused of genocide or causing any kind of deaths amoung the human population and their children. If any other team does it, well.....then....see.......it's ok.

PS Advertising alcohol is ok too, right? No underage kid drinks alcohol, right?

Dave B

18th August 2010, 09:34

First I find highly crazy to associate or even trying to associate Ferrari with teenagers smoking and the plotting behind it. Second, F1 does not have races in Africa nor in the Czech republic, so I really don;t see how Ferrari contributes with the smoking in Nigeria and in teh Czech republic.
You've managed, in a quite spectaular way, to waste all that effort in answering a point that I never made. Show me where I said Ferrari support or encourage smoking in developing countries, please. You can't.

To jog your memory, somebody made the point that after "crashgate" in Singapore, many of Renault's backers deserted them. It was suggested that Ferrari's sponsors may react to their team's cheating in a similar way.

I replied, and I quote with additional bold:

Ferrari's principal sponsor market cigarettes to children in developing nations, I hardly think this registers on their ethical barometer

Stick that in your pipe and sell it to a 12 year old kid. :s mokin:

The bottom of the line is wht you people say just biased opinions [...] If Ferrari does it, then it MUST be wrong and illegal [...] If any other team does it, well.....then....see.......it's ok.
If you note my post, and you even quoted the relevant part, I was careful to mention that I held the same contempt for BAT's marketing antics, even though they sponsored a driver and team which I supported. Paranoid much?

pallone col bracciale

18th August 2010, 12:20

That data only takes into account races. A failure in qualifying, for example, does not figure. Lamp posts and bikinis...

Having the best finishing percentage is very useful, no?

Having a poor record of race completion in comparison, like Red Bull, is more of a concern, no?

Ferrari problems so far have been primarily due to poor strategy, driver-error , some poor fortune and poor steward decisions. The engine quota is a concern, but can still be managed.

About bikinis? I do not understand. Scusi.

Dave B

18th August 2010, 12:40

Having the best finishing percentage is very useful, no?
It's one measure of quality, yes, but if it comes at the expense of blowing up your engine allocation in qualifying it's pretty meaningless. I'm not saying that this necessarily applies to Ferrari, but merely advising against taking one statistic in isolation.

About bikinis? I do not understand. Scusi.
There's a famous saying about statistics being like bikinis in that they can reveal a lot, but still leave the most useful and intersting parts obscured. :)

Bagwan

18th August 2010, 13:00

Team orders are like bikinis , required on this beach , to obscure what's really underneath .
Nobody gets too excited unless an errant nipple appears .

Big Ben

18th August 2010, 13:35

Stop pornofying this thread :laugh: :p :

Bagwan

18th August 2010, 13:55

Stop pornofying this thread :laugh: :p :

Sorry , couldn't help it .

And , I should mention that Ferrari asked for a bikini , but pasties were applied by Massa and Smedley .
Nobody liked the visual effect , as pasties offer no support , and the public became outraged immediately .

Big Ben

18th August 2010, 14:48

Sorry , couldn't help it .

And , I should mention that Ferrari asked for a bikini , but pasties were applied by Massa and Smedley .
Nobody liked the visual effect , as pasties offer no support , and the public became outraged immediately .

Do you think anyone would believe me it's a f1 forum that drove me to googling what a pasty is? :laugh:

Tazio

18th August 2010, 15:19

Team orders are like bikinis , required on this beach , to obscure what's really underneath .
Nobody gets too excited unless an errant nipple appears .

:s ailor: :s ailor: and 1/2 :s ailor:

Tazio

18th August 2010, 15:32

Stop pornofying this thread :laugh: :p :

y0O7_3o3BrI&feature=related

Bagwan

18th August 2010, 19:17

Do you think anyone would believe me it's a f1 forum that drove me to googling what a pasty is? :laugh:

It would depend on whether or not you were asking the question on the pasty forum .

And , with pasties , you ogle , not google

Bagwan

18th August 2010, 19:18

:s ailor: :s ailor: and 1/2 :s ailor:

Yarrrrrr .

Saint Devote

19th August 2010, 01:02

Massa has no class.

To understand how a driver undertakes the interests of Ferrari he should read about the 1970 Austrian Grand Prix at Zeltweg where one of the classiest drivers, the great Lugano man Clay Regazzoni gave way to his teammate Belguim's Jacky Ickx.

It was done quietly and almost unnoticed by the Swiss as he was leading the grand prix.

And of anyone thinks back to Hockenheim, Massa around lap 21 TWICE chopped and fought Alonso to prevent the Spaniard from overtaking.

In addition, Massa was at his limit and was locking his tyres as well as almost losing the car once under pressre from Alonso.

Alonso then backed off for a while and Massa had almost 3 seconds in hand - Alonso then decided to reel the Brazilian number 2 in and it was over.

Massa is a little rabbit and is fighting to pretend that he is the equal of Alonso - he is not.

Alonso is gaining strength in the team and is coming into his own at Ferrari.

Massa will continue to clutch at straws but for Felipe the dream is over.

For the 2010 championship I think we will see Vettel and Alonso in the final fight.

Saint Devote

19th August 2010, 01:05

It's one measure of quality, yes, but if it comes at the expense of blowing up your engine allocation in qualifying it's pretty meaningless. I'm not saying that this necessarily applies to Ferrari, but merely advising against taking one statistic in isolation.

There's a famous saying about statistics being like bikinis in that they can reveal a lot, but still leave the most useful and intersting parts obscured. :)

At Ferrari at least, all the engines are not the same. They use certain engines for practice and certain engines depending on the track.

So they might even appear to use more engines out of the allocation than anyone else and at the start of the year they did have a problem that was rectified.

Ferrari know what they are doing, they have a driver in Alonso that is eager to fight and win.

DexDexter

19th August 2010, 07:38

I don't think anybody here truly believes that Massa is a better driver than Alonso.

Alonso is gaining strength within the Ferrari team but losing masses of respect around the paddock. His behaviour is confirming that he is a great driver but he is not a team player. He's temperamental, and shows that he can only drive for a team if the focus is purely around him. Mclaren sacked him because of this attitude, but Ferrari are known to accomodate this style, so I am not surprised he is fitting in well at Maranello. Good luck to him, and I hope next season Felipe drives for a decent team. :)

I think everybody understands now why they bought Räikkönen out with that huge paycheck. Alonso is too insecure to have another WDC in the same team. It must be said though that he is an excellent driver although personally I hope he retires from every race :rolleyes: .

SGWilko

19th August 2010, 09:20

At Ferrari at least, all the engines are not the same. They use certain engines for practice and certain engines depending on the track.

So they might even appear to use more engines out of the allocation than anyone else and at the start of the year they did have a problem that was rectified.

Ferrari know what they are doing, they have a driver in Alonso that is eager to fight and win.

What, you mean they've had to submit more than one type of engine for homologation?

Or, perhaps what you mean is that Ferrari, like the rest, have a standard engine, which they use differently from duty cycles to other teams????

Dave B

19th August 2010, 09:36

I think everybody understands now why they bought Räikkönen out with that huge paycheck. Alonso is too insecure to have another WDC in the same team. It must be said though that he is an excellent driver although personally I hope he retires from every race :rolleyes: .

He is, and that's why for me it rankles so much that Ferrari clumsily fixed a race for him to win. I genuinely believe that in a straight fight he'd have passed Massa, and I'd like to believe that two men with such experience would not have collided in the process.

Alonso's right up there with the best on the grid, but he's a petulant whinging moaner who hates it when a team mate is a threat, throws his toys out of the pram far too readily, and is fast gaining a reputation for only being able to perform when he's the clear number one in his team.

Dave B

19th August 2010, 09:39

At Ferrari at least, all the engines are not the same. They use certain engines for practice and certain engines depending on the track.
Under the engine homologation rules, there will only be the most minor variations between units, caused by normal manufacturing tolerances. The days of a "qualifying special" or a souped-up scorcher for a home race are long gone.

pallone col bracciale

19th August 2010, 13:12

Good luck to him, and I hope next season Felipe drives for a decent team. :)

Ferrari have made Massa a career he otherwise would not have. They have stood by him always. Why would he feel they are not a decent team, given this?

Is there any need to flame-bait? What does it add?

pallone col bracciale

19th August 2010, 13:15

Massa has no class.

I don't agree. Felipe is a gentleman.

Alonso is gaining strength in the team and is coming into his own at Ferrari.

This, yes, it is correct.

Tumbo

19th August 2010, 13:27

He is, and that's why for me it rankles so much that Ferrari clumsily fixed a race for him to win. I genuinely believe that in a straight fight he'd have passed Massa, and I'd like to believe that two men with such experience would not have collided in the process.

I'm in total agreement, as a two-time world champ who, regardless as to being 'gifted' a win in singapore in 08, managed to show speed unexpected in a renault which was clearly not top of the pack he clearly has the talent needed to dice out the win without needing the team involved on the radio.

Would have been excellent to see him track down his team-mate and execute a clean pass on its own merits

pallone col bracciale

19th August 2010, 14:39

Would have been excellent to see him track down his team-mate and execute a clean pass on its own merits

But an unnecessary risk.

Thankfully, Felipe was magnanimous and made an enlightened decision.

Ferrari fans do not want to see scarlet cars colliding.

Bagwan

19th August 2010, 15:28

But an unnecessary risk.

Thankfully, Felipe was magnanimous and made an enlightened decision.

Ferrari fans do not want to see scarlet cars colliding.

Not only a risk in terms of collision , but also in terms of the relative speed of two cars fighting against the speed of a closing rival .
Cars defending always compromise the ideal line to keep a rival behind , slowing both , and the risk of this is certain , unlike the possibilty of the collision .

Felipe showed his loyalty in the end , but his tantrum surely was noticed by the tifosi , no ?

I do understand , though , that the fire displayed by a driver , to dare defy two previous suggestions , and need proof before moving aside for the team , can be desireable in the sense that he never wants to give up .
But , the honour of backing up a lead driver , for those who wind up with less points rarely seems to be brought far enough forward that the driver is satisfied .

To begrudgingly toe the line is different to doing it with dignity .
He needs to channel that fire .

SGWilko

19th August 2010, 15:51

Not only a risk in terms of collision , but also in terms of the relative speed of two cars fighting against the speed of a closing rival .
Cars defending always compromise the ideal line to keep a rival behind , slowing both , and the risk of this is certain , unlike the possibilty of the collision .

Felipe showed his loyalty in the end , but his tantrum surely was noticed by the tifosi , no ?

I do understand , though , that the fire displayed by a driver , to dare defy two previous suggestions , and need proof before moving aside for the team , can be desireable in the sense that he never wants to give up .
But , the honour of backing up a lead driver , for those who wind up with less points rarely seems to be brought far enough forward that the driver is satisfied .

To begrudgingly toe the line is different to doing it with dignity .
He needs to channel that fire .

What niggles the most, is Alonso complains vehemently in Valencia about race manipulation, but is more than happy to accept a gifted win, orchestrated by his team manipulating the positions and end result.

Good luck to him if he is happy with that. Not a fair fight, and the win is not deserved in my opinion.

pallone col bracciale

19th August 2010, 17:25

You do not have to enjoy making a decision for it to be an enlightened one.

This may come as a surprise to those who have never made an enlightened decision.

pallone col bracciale

19th August 2010, 18:01

Flame baiting is only recognised when one does not agree with the opinion it seems. We'll gloss over the inflammatory and provocative post I originally quoted and move swiftly along. :)

I disagreed with the post you refer to, at least to that which was provocative. I stated this in my response to it.

Two wrongs do not make a right, whatever provoked you.

airshifter

20th August 2010, 04:26

What niggles the most, is Alonso complains vehemently in Valencia about race manipulation, but is more than happy to accept a gifted win, orchestrated by his team manipulating the positions and end result.

Good luck to him if he is happy with that. Not a fair fight, and the win is not deserved in my opinion.

Apparently to some drivers, a gifted win is still a win. At least they didn't make Massa spin on purpose to give Alonso the win. I'm sure he would have just as gladly accepted the position he didn't earn on track regardless of how they gave it to him.

Valve Bounce

20th August 2010, 05:06

Maybe Massa should have a nice long chat with his Brazilian compatriot Rubens. I understand they are close friends.

Mia 01

20th August 2010, 07:36

Well, it seems to be the whole book at them. Alonso is a good driver but he wont come cheap.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86003

Dave B

20th August 2010, 08:45

SGWilko

20th August 2010, 10:01

You do not have to enjoy making a decision for it to be an enlightened one.

This may come as a surprise to those who have never made an enlightened decision.

I never make a decision without first turning on the light.....

Hawkmoon

20th August 2010, 10:35

I envisage Ferrari losing their constructors' points from the weekend, and Alonso getting away squeaky clean as he always seems to. If so, and he goes on to win the championship by a margin of fewer points than he gained in Germany, Ferrari won't care about the money. For them, buying a world championship will be just as good as winning one on merit.

Smile when you say that Brockman. Somebody might actually take it seriously otherwise.

How the hell is this any different to McLaren trying to win the 2007 title by getting Williams disqualified in Brazil that year? Or how about lying to the stewards in Australia last year in an effort to get Trulli disqualified? It isn't, except for the fact that it isn't as dirty, and each and every team on the grid will do everything they can to secure a title so stop trying to make out like Ferrari are doing something the others wouldn't.

Saint Devote

21st August 2010, 03:53

You're right, its no different at all to the second pointed highlighted. Its cheating pure and simple and its gaining an unfair advantage through breaching the regulations. I agree all teams will do anything to win, and Ferrari are not the only entity which have used underhand tactics. :)

Well the days of catching people under the cars actually measuring the cars have gone.

Valve Bounce

21st August 2010, 06:09

mstillhere

21st August 2010, 06:44

"This time, good old Niki has missed out on a fine opportunity to keep his mouth shut, given that, when he was a Scuderia driver, the supposed Ferrari driver management policy suited him perfectly... That aside, where was all his moral fury when, over the past years, so many have been guilty of more or less overt hypocritical actions?"

I really don't know what's wrong with this guy. Althouth Ferrari has remarkably contributed to this his fame and fortune every time he opens his mouth is often against Ferrari. I know all the Ferrari haters want to see Ferrari stopping being part of F1 alltogether. Unfortunately I dont see that happening in any near nor far future. Also, you cannot be the judge and jury of Ferrari's destiny. It's up to the FIA and if, IMO, the FIA is going to be harshly punishing Ferrari, this thing would inevitably end up in court and we all know what happens after that.

Despite your doomsday reaction about Ferrari's "horrible crime" you all know that everyone does it. What Ferrrari did is not the end of the world and on top of that there is no smoking gun. Oh, wait. You actually have one. You got a couple of statements that nail Ferrari to the "crime". Of course we are forgetting that those statements can be interpreted one way or an other. Massa said something about it and then, later on, he said the contrary. Which one is the true statement? I now your answer and you also know mine. Feel free interpreting those atements the way you find it more convenient but I find it a shame to see so many people pretending they already know the final verdict, including Lauda, of course. Thank God you are judges. If you were, I could already see the firing squad starting walking towards the Ferrari's garage. Thank God there is due process, otherwise the lynching mob would be all around the Red cars.

What McLaren did to Trulli is remarkably despicable. Ferrari did not do anything close to that. Ferrari's big fault is just that, to be Ferrari. The most prestigious team that F1 has ever had. And I love to see how short your comments are about the McLaren corrupt way of operating. Just a couple of lines, and quickly back at bashing Ferrari. I think the Ferrari bashers need to move on. The fact that the bashing is still continuing after so much time from the incident, shows a worrysome level of hatred (that includes certain press as well, of course).

Valve Bounce

21st August 2010, 07:06

I really don't know what's wrong with this guy. Althouth Ferrari has remarkably contributed to this his fame and fortune every time he opens his mouth is often against Ferrari. I know all the Ferrari haters want to see Ferrari stopping being part of F1 alltogether. Unfortunately I dont see that happening in any near nor far future. Also, you cannot be the judge and jury of Ferrari's destiny. It's up to the FIA and if, IMO, the FIA is going to be harshly punishing Ferrari, this thing would inevitably end up in court and we all know what happens after that.

Despite your doomsday reaction about Ferrari's "horrible crime" you all know that everyone does it. What Ferrrari did is not the end of the world and on top of that there is no smoking gun. Oh, wait. You actually have one. You got a couple of statements that nail Ferrari to the "crime". Of course we are forgetting that those statements can be interpreted one way or an other. Massa said something about it and then, later on, he said the contrary. Which one is the true statement? I now your answer and you also know mine. Feel free interpreting those atements the way you find it more convenient but I find it a shame to see so many people pretending they already know the final verdict, including Lauda, of course. Thank God you are judges. If you were, I could already see the firing squad starting walking towards the Ferrari's garage. Thank God there is due process, otherwise the lynching mob would be all around the Red cars.

What McLaren did to Trulli is remarkably despicable. Ferrari did not do anything close to that. Ferrari's big fault is just that, to be Ferrari. The most prestigious team that F1 has ever had. And I love to see how short your comments are about the McLaren corrupt way of operating. Just a couple of lines, and quickly back at bashing Ferrari. I think the Ferrari bashers need to move on. The fact that the bashing is still continuing after so much time from the incident, shows a worrysome level of hatred (that includes certain press as well, of course).

I hope when you say "You", you mean someone else and not you as in Valve Bounce.

I try to be as even handed as possible on this issue, and bringing quotes to this forum is meant tabling something for open discussion and not something that can be intended in any other way. I certainly have no doomsday reaction to what Ferrari may or may not have said or done.

And having said that, I have absolutely no idea what McLaren did to Jarno Trulli.

F1boat

21st August 2010, 08:40

I agree with the Whisperer on Lauda. Bitter old freak.

Robinho

21st August 2010, 10:11

Saint Devote

21st August 2010, 11:59

I agree with the Whisperer on Lauda. Bitter old freak.

:eek: Come on F1 - thats a horrible thing to say. You are not one of the people here that usually make remarks like that.

Regardless what Niki says he must always be responded to with the respect and reverence that he deserves.

Saint Devote

21st August 2010, 12:16

as usual we have the back against the wall, the world hates us, wants us to leave F1, most prestigious and long standing F1 team arguements being rolled out.

For me this has nothing to do with any other teams actions, or even any of Ferraris past actions.

Each case on its merits, and on those merits i choose to condemn the actions of the Ferrari team. I would have done the same if it was Mclaren or Force India.

I don't want Ferarri to leave, they are one of the top teams and a great draw in F1, the sport would be poorer without them, but i don't think that gives ANY team carte blanche to ride roughshod over the rules.

I'd expect any team found guilty of an indisgression punished, and as i said, each case on its merits.

I may not always agree with the motives or the evidence, but ultimately as a fan i respect the right of the governing body to enforce their rules as they see fit, even if its against "my team"

i do grow tired of the usual "Ferrari basher" jibes that get trotted out every time someone has the gall to call the team on something they don't agree with.

as i've posted before, Blind faith is just as dangerous as Blind hate

:D Respectfully - you dont understand the passion that is Ferrari.

It is a passion that will scream and throw the toys out of the stroller and perform histrionics that appear as if Armageddon is approaching.

But it is also one that calms down quickly and will smile and after the event will ask for an autograph from the object of their derision.

It is the same passion of the tifosi. Ferrari remember is not a team - the drivers race for a country!

If anyone has ever been to Monza in September - they will understand and always be understanding of Ferrari - as well as Niki.

If you can understand Super Rats' relationship with Enzo Ferrari then you understand everything.

:D If you love motor racing you have to love Ferrari - always. It does not mean you will be a fan or a supporter - but it is Ferrari and at the end of a race if it has beaten everyone including your favorite driver - how can anybody that loves racing for its purity not be emotional with pleasure?

Forza Ferrari - but of course Jense first!

I wish Jenson was rather driving Ferrari than a Mclaren [sigh]!

Roamy

21st August 2010, 13:14

:D

I wish Jenson was rather driving Ferrari than a Mclaren [sigh]!

I would assume button does also

pallone col bracciale

21st August 2010, 13:48

Respectfully, I am surprised you admire that perspective considering you hated the notion that two British drivers were being marketed through Mclaren at the beginning of the season as an all British team. Nationalism has no place in F1 you said?? :confused:

Comparing the marketing of the Button/Hamilton pairing as comparable in any form to the Ferrari story shows a lack of historical knowledge.

Ferrari were intially a success story for Italy at a time when very little else was. Ferrari helped restore Italian pride after the disaster of Mussolini and the destruction of the country, politically and physically, during WWII.

Putting two British drivers in the same team in 2010 because Vodafone think it would sell some more phones is not in the same league.

Not by a long, long, long way.

When you understand the difference, when you can understand what Ferrari means to the Italian pysche, then you will see why.

Of course, the importance of Ferrari as a symbol of Italian success does not have the same gravitas if you are unaware of the history of Italy.

This is a different sort of nationalism to which I think Mr Devote is recoiling.

That nationalism, which I assume is the sort promoted by the original Silver Arrows, was indeed both brutal and ugly and sinister.

The national pride produced by the Ferrari story is an altogether more benevolent entity.

wmcot

21st August 2010, 23:08

Ferrari's principal sponsor market cigarettes to children in developing nations, I hardly think this registers on their ethical barometer :s

Let's not leave out Jordan, Renault, Williams, Lotus, McLaren, BAR/Honda, etc. Then we can talk about the alcohol companies "marketing to children in developing nations."

I always thought it was up to parents to teach their children morals, not corporations? Perhaps I should dump my Goldman-Sachs account that pays for my daughter's college and stop filling my car with BP products.

wmcot

21st August 2010, 23:12

tmx

21st August 2010, 23:51

Would have been excellent to see him track down his team-mate and execute a clean pass on its own merits Yes, but Alonso prefer the easy way by complaining to his team to let him pass. It was this race and one other time he was behind Massa. There is a clear driver preference in Ferrari.

Saint Devote

22nd August 2010, 00:40

Yep. I seem to remember Niki having something to do with a certain Carlos Reutemann leaving Ferrari. Seems he was a bit to quick for Niki's taste and management took care of Niki's "problem."

Where did you get THAT story?

Reutemann joined in 1977 and Lauda left Ferrari before the end of the season as the world champion for other reasons and a simmering frustration with the team built over the previous years.

Carlos Reutemann left the team at the end of 1978.

While at Ferrari - Lauda did not get on with Reutemann because he did not like him. Lauda did not believe in teammates either and it was only years later that he mellowed towards the Argentinian.

And out of the 15 races they contested Niki beat Carlos 8 times in qualifyingincluding a pole position and he had 3 wins to Reutemann's 1.

Lauda never asked for help from management - he sorted it out himself.

Saint Devote

22nd August 2010, 00:45

Yes, but Alonso prefer the easy way by complaining to his team to let him pass. It was this race and one other time he was behind Massa. There is a clear driver preference in Ferrari.

I recommend you watch the Grman Grand Prix - Alonso had Massa's measure from when early in the race he tried to overtake but was chopped and had he pursued this then what do YOU think the result would have been? Smiles or tears?

Then see how miserable Massa's life at Ferrari would be made.

Then there was Massa constantly almost losingthe car under pressure and his inability to keep a gap to Alonso.

Any team in motor racing has and will always take the measures that Ferrari did.

After all - who do you think is more likely to be world champion? Massa or Alonso? Clearly it is the Spaniard.

And if Massa does not tidy up his pathetically petulant performance I reckon it is not probable that he will see out his new contract term.

Saint Devote

22nd August 2010, 00:53

I would assume button does also

Well then, your assumption is wrong.

:vader: PS - lets not get all stupid now and begin a Jenson bashing session - okay?

Saint Devote

22nd August 2010, 00:57

I agree, and using the word 'freak' is particularly harsh considering Niki's unfortunate appearance. Abit too personal for my liking. :down:

Thank you.

What Niki Lauda went through and the courage it took to return and then win the title in 1977 - this is a very special individual. God bless him.

Saint Devote

22nd August 2010, 01:06

ioan

22nd August 2010, 13:43

I agree with the Whisperer on Lauda. Bitter old freak.

How thoughtless of you. :down:

Saint Devote

22nd August 2010, 18:14

I agree with you on this, but when I said at the beginning of the season I was excited by the concept that Mclaren had an all British line up, I was accused of being a nationalist. I'm certainly pleased this stance didn't last, and some of us can maintain a certain amount of national pride when our countrymen do well. Much like the pride Italians have with a team that is proud of it roots. Its definately not the sinister national arrogance which was suggested back in early December.. :)

The problem is that sort of comment sits uncomfortably with me and it can be nationalist. On the face of it, I so interpret it as such and I would take issue with it everytime.

I still do not agree with supporting someone just because they are from the same country.

Ferrari himself rejected hiring Italian drivers just because they were Italian. Niki Lauda did not like the emotion that flowed in Italy over Ferrari but had to manage it - he did not race for Austria any more than Alain Prost declared that he did not race for France either and actually preferred English teams.

Both drivers were typically unsentimental about THEIR racing, Lauda giving away ALL his trophies while Prost gave aeverything away except his four FIA WDC trophies and the helmets he wore when he clinched his four titles.

Saint Devote

22nd August 2010, 21:54

Well I do and I'm very comfortable with that. I support England in football, cricket, rugby and motorsport and I don't see why I should be labelled in the same way as some racist from the national front by anybody thank you. You can keep those remarks to yourself.

Excuse me - where did I label you personally?

I do not aim points at people - I write in terms of what is being discussed.

And you may support someone merely because they are from England, that is your prerogative, but that is not what I do. Thats all there is to this matter.

And in addition I demonstrated that drivers such as Lauda and Prost never drove for their countries either - which is the correct attitude in my view.

mstillhere

23rd August 2010, 06:14

[quote="henners88"]Well I do and I'm very comfortable with that. I support England in football, cricket, rugby and motorsport and I don't see why I should be labelled in the same way as some racist from the national front by anybody thank you.[/QUOTE

I agree with you on this one and I think millions of fans of any sport from all the world would agree with you as well. I know people who support teams of different countries but based on my experience is rather rare. And I don't necessarely see the "nationalism" in sports linked with political nationalism. I think people keep these two things well separated.

Mia 01

23rd August 2010, 08:42

Max follow Nikis trail.

http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213/6330949/Mosley-Ferrari-should-be-docked-points

SGWilko

23rd August 2010, 09:55

Comparing the marketing of the Button/Hamilton pairing as comparable in any form to the Ferrari story shows a lack of historical knowledge.

Ferrari were intially a success story for Italy at a time when very little else was. Ferrari helped restore Italian pride after the disaster of Mussolini and the destruction of the country, politically and physically, during WWII.

Putting two British drivers in the same team in 2010 because Vodafone think it would sell some more phones is not in the same league.

Not by a long, long, long way.

When you understand the difference, when you can understand what Ferrari means to the Italian pysche, then you will see why.

Of course, the importance of Ferrari as a symbol of Italian success does not have the same gravitas if you are unaware of the history of Italy.

This is a different sort of nationalism to which I think Mr Devote is recoiling.

That nationalism, which I assume is the sort promoted by the original Silver Arrows, was indeed both brutal and ugly and sinister.

The national pride produced by the Ferrari story is an altogether more benevolent entity.

Well, by your logic, I can understand why Ferrari don't have Italian drivers? :rolleyes: :confused:

Valve Bounce

23rd August 2010, 10:00

Well, by your logic, I can understand why Ferrari don't have Italian drivers? :rolleyes: :confused:

I think this is being extremely unfair. Apart from the fact that Ferrari prefers to have the best drivers from the grid in their team, I have read somewhere that the trauma of Bandini's crash at Monaco resulted in Enzo preferring not to become involved in F1 races himself, and his preference not to have Italian drivers because of how he suffered from that occasion.

Of course, others will come up with different reasons, but that's what I read many years ago.

pallone col bracciale

23rd August 2010, 14:08

Well, by your logic, I can understand why Ferrari don't have Italian drivers? :rolleyes: :confused:

What? You evidently did not understand.

Enzo Ferrari did not start his team as a national symbol. It became one.

SGWilko

23rd August 2010, 14:11

Enzo Ferrari did not start his team as a national symbol. It became one.

Yes, quite right.

But a national Italian symbol, such that Ferrari NOW is, has not had an Italian pilot for some years.

ShiftingGears

23rd August 2010, 14:14

Yes, quite right.

But a national Italian symbol, such that Ferrari NOW is, has not had an Italian pilot for some years.

COUGHGIANCARLOFISICHELLALASTYEARCOUGH

Sorry, just clearing the throat :p :

SGWilko

23rd August 2010, 14:16

COUGHGIANCARLOFISICHELLALASTYEARCOUGH

Sorry, just clearing the throat :p :

My apologies.

I should have stipulated FAST and TALENTED in my post.

CNR

23rd August 2010, 14:41

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86074
Mosley: Ferrari must be punished

"Both cars and both drivers should lose the points they achieved in the German Grand Prix," he said. "I will not make any recommendation, but on the facts at the moment there should have been some sporting sanction and not only a fine."

DexDexter

23rd August 2010, 14:42

How thoughtless of you. :down:

So Lauda has opened his mouth again. Maybe he should just come here and start writing on this forum, it would be less embarassing for him. :rolleyes:

CNR

23rd August 2010, 14:58

Yes, quite right.

But a national Italian symbol, such that Ferrari NOW is, has not had an Italian pilot for some years.
how quick some forget
Giancarlo Fisichella (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2009/17.html)

Italian (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2009/818/)13 Sep 2009Ferrari (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2009/2932.html)14908Singapore (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2009/819/)27 Sep 2009Ferrari (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2009/2932.html)171308Japanese (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2009/820/)04 Oct 2009Ferrari (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2009/2932.html)141208Brazilian (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2009/822/)18 Oct 2009Ferrari (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2009/2932.html)191008Abu Dhabi (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2009/823/)01 Nov 2009Ferrari (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2009/2932.html)201608

F1boat

23rd August 2010, 15:02

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86074
Mosley: Ferrari must be punished

Maxy is still quite bitter that Ferrari managed to get rid of him. He wasn't totally useless as a FIA president, although a bit annoying, but now he is a senile old clown.

Roamy

23rd August 2010, 15:23

Max needs the STFU before someone gives him a whipping!

gloomyDAY

23rd August 2010, 16:24

I agree with the Whisperer on Lauda. Bitter old freak.

Maxy is still quite bitter that Ferrari managed to get rid of him. He wasn't totally useless as a FIA president, although a bit annoying, but now he is a senile old clown. :up:

SGWilko

23rd August 2010, 16:44

how quick some forget
Giancarlo Fisichella (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2009/17.html)

May I refer you to post #1460?

May I also point out that Giancarlo was a shoe-in for the previous shoe-in Badoer, who replaced the recouperating Massa.

pallone col bracciale

23rd August 2010, 18:16

May I refer you to post #1460?

May I also point out that Giancarlo was a shoe-in for the previous shoe-in Badoer, who replaced the recouperating Massa.

But there isn't a fast and talented Italian F1 driver currently.

Nobody would expect a team to run a driver based solely on nationality. Especially when that team was founded by Enzo Ferrari, whose only concern was to hire the fastest.

Valve Bounce

23rd August 2010, 23:10

May I refer you to post #1460?

May I also point out that Giancarlo was a shoe-in for the previous shoe-in Badoer, who replaced the recouperating Massa.

May I refer you to post #1456.

mstillhere

24th August 2010, 03:40

I hope when you say "You", you mean someone else and not you as in Valve Bounce.

I try to be as even handed as possible on this issue, and bringing quotes to this forum is meant tabling something for open discussion and not something that can be intended in any other way. I certainly have no doomsday reaction to what Ferrari may or may not have said or done.

And having said that, I have absolutely no idea what McLaren did to Jarno Trulli.

I meant "YOU" referring to the Ferrari haters

mstillhere

24th August 2010, 03:47

Sorry but this just scream's paranoia to me. You can't whine about people criticizing or hating Ferrari as you put it, and then take a swipe at a team you are not particularly fond of using the same manner. What sort of message does that send out?

This is a discussion forum and we all have differing opinions. If you can't join in the debate without dragging the inferiority complex guise into the equation, then this is a strange place to share your thoughts IMO. F1 forums follow the same trend, and there will be hypocrisy whereever you go, be it Ferrari or Mclaren fans to some extent. If I cried everytime someone took a swipe at Hamilton on here, I'd be a nervous wreck by now.. :p

I CANNOT have an inferiority complex simply because I am a Ferrari fan.
I pity anyone who is incapable of waiting for the FIA to make a decision in the matter and decide instead to run their mouth costantly over something that has been discussed already a billion time and pretending that everyone else is an angel. If you wanna talk, but at least try or to show or pretend you know what you are talking about.

PS I might have a complex, but of inferiority is very unlikely. That was hysterical :) :) :)

mstillhere

24th August 2010, 04:02

COUGHGIANCARLOFISICHELLALASTYEARCOUGH

Sorry, just clearing the throat :p :

Tha was a deadly combination. A poor driver driving a poor car. What were the chances? I don't think even MS could have done anything wity that car.

wmcot

24th August 2010, 06:44

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86074
Mosley: Ferrari must be punished

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Max making a recommendation even though he states that he is not making the recommendation that he recommends?

wmcot

24th August 2010, 06:47

Where did you get THAT story?

Reutemann joined in 1977 and Lauda left Ferrari before the end of the season as the world champion for other reasons and a simmering frustration with the team built over the previous years.

Carlos Reutemann left the team at the end of 1978.

While at Ferrari - Lauda did not get on with Reutemann because he did not like him. Lauda did not believe in teammates either and it was only years later that he mellowed towards the Argentinian.

And out of the 15 races they contested Niki beat Carlos 8 times in qualifyingincluding a pole position and he had 3 wins to Reutemann's 1.

Lauda never asked for help from management - he sorted it out himself.

I messed up the facts (hey, I'm on pain killers from having a tooth pulled!) on Reutemann - Niki actually tried to stop Ferrari from hiring him because he felt he was a bit too fast. In a way, Niki was trying to make team orders.

Mia 01

24th August 2010, 08:15

As the last President Max will be one of the judges in the WMSC court.

DexDexter

24th August 2010, 08:34

Tha was a deadly combination. A poor driver driving a poor car. What were the chances? I don't think even MS could have done anything wity that car.

Somebody did though.

SGWilko

24th August 2010, 09:05

May I refer you to post #1456.

You may, you may!

SGWilko

24th August 2010, 09:10

But there isn't a fast and talented Italian F1 driver currently.

Given the hype that Ferrari trumps itself up to behold, you'd think more Italians would want to work up through the series from karts to GP2 etc with the ambition of one day driving for the 'great team'.

Or is that a bit OTT?

Perhaps Ferrari is just 'another' longstanding F1 team....

IMMVHO, naturally.

Valve Bounce

24th August 2010, 09:53

You may, you may!

And your answer is....................?

Valve Bounce

24th August 2010, 09:54

Given the hype that Ferrari trumps itself up to behold, you'd think more Italians would want to work up through the series from karts to GP2 etc with the ambition of one day driving for the 'great team'.

Or is that a bit OTT?

Perhaps Ferrari is just 'another' longstanding F1 team....

IMMVHO, naturally.

Ferrari is THE long standing team in F1. At least you got that right!

SGWilko

24th August 2010, 09:56

I think this is being extremely unfair. Apart from the fact that Ferrari prefers to have the best drivers from the grid in their team, I have read somewhere that the trauma of Bandini's crash at Monaco resulted in Enzo preferring not to become involved in F1 races himself, and his preference not to have Italian drivers because of how he suffered from that occasion.

Of course, others will come up with different reasons, but that's what I read many years ago.

And your answer is....................?

Sorry Valve, but what was the question?

Valve Bounce

24th August 2010, 10:22

Sorry Valve, but what was the question?

It's in the post you purported to have read. It was the reason why Ferrari was not keen to hire Italian drivers.

SGWilko

24th August 2010, 10:27

It's in the post you purported to have read. It was the reason why Ferrari was not keen to hire Italian drivers.

Could you post the post I am purported to have read in my previous post, where I asked what was the question, when you questioned what my answer ought to have been, but I was unsure, because I questioned whether you had, in fact, actually asked a question that indeed required an answer.

I suppose I could just put 42.......

EDIT - that's sneaky Valve, I responded to this; "Valve Bounce has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - The Ferrari thread - in the Formula 1 forum of {MotorsportForums}.

This thread is located at:
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums//showthread.php?t=132476&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************

---Quote (Originally by SGWilko)---
Sorry Valve, but what was the question?
---End Quote---
It's in the post you purported to have read."
***************
But I see you have subsequently added to the post.

Maybe my answer should now be 43? ;)

SGWilko

24th August 2010, 10:35

pallone col bracciale

24th August 2010, 12:59

Could you name the great Italian drivers you think Ferrari should have hired since Bandini?

To my knowledge, there haven't been any.

SGWilko

24th August 2010, 13:03

Could you name the great Italian drivers you think Ferrari should have hired since Bandini?

To my knowledge, there haven't been any.

That is exactly the point.

If Ferrari is such a national institution - not having started out as one as you say - and is THE draw and is tantamount to F1, ya da, ya da, ya da, why are there not more dreamy eyed Italian bambino's being groomed into karting, with a view to working up the series, learning their skills etc, to one day drive for THE team?

pallone col bracciale

24th August 2010, 13:09

That is exactly the point.

If Ferrari is such a national institution - not having started out as one as you say - and is THE draw and is tantamount to F1, ya da, ya da, ya da, why are there not more dreamy eyed Italian bambino's being groomed into karting, with a view to working up the series, learning their skills etc, to one day drive for THE team?

How do you know they haven't tried? Italy is the centre of the Karting world, for your information. The number of Italian bambinos trying to succeed hasn't diminished over the years, as can be seen by the continued growth of Italian karting.

I think this may surprise you, but it's not as easy as it looks.

Nice try to flame-bait, but you need to try harder yourself. It is not as easy as it looks.

SGWilko

24th August 2010, 13:14

How do you know they haven't tried? Italy is the centre of the Karting world, for your information. The number of Italian bambinos trying to succeed hasn't diminished over the years, as can be seen by the continued growth of Italian karting.

I think this may surprise you, but it's not as easy as it looks.

Nice try to flame-bait, but you need to try harder yourself. It is not as easy as it looks.

Hold your horses (no pun inteneded) :)

No flame baiting here.

I am just asking the question as the nationalistic hocus pocus was not started by me..

I'm trying to understand how Ferrari can be this uber Nationalistic team, but does not have a regular influx of home-grown talent to showcase.

I am obviously not getting the point across.

Valve Bounce

24th August 2010, 13:32

Aha.

So, what happens if, one day, an Italian driver is the best of the pack (I know, but work with me here, ok?)

Do Ferrari overlook him because of past precedent?

What about Luca's obsession with that dude that rides the bikes and a third Ferrari?

Rossi isn't it? Isn't he Italian?

In case you havn't noticed yet, Enzo Ferrari passed away in 1988. He was the one who was reluctant to hire Italian drivers following Bandini's death.

SGWilko

24th August 2010, 13:36

In case you havn't noticed yet, Enzo Ferrari passed away in 1988. He was the one who was reluctant to hire Italian drivers following Bandini's death.

Indeed. 22 years in which to have a worthy home grown pilot.

So why was my previous post unfair?

SGWilko

24th August 2010, 13:59

Look,

My argument is as follows;

McLaren, as posted on this very thread, currently have an all British driver line-up. Great.

British team, British drivers. As a proud Brit (with little left to be proud of as successive governments have sold off everything we once had to shout about that was great about this country), it gives me something to celebrate, especially as both drivers and team are competetive in an all round competetive season.

Then, the post below pops up;

Comparing the marketing of the Button/Hamilton pairing as comparable in any form to the Ferrari story shows a lack of historical knowledge.

Ferrari were intially a success story for Italy at a time when very little else was. Ferrari helped restore Italian pride after the disaster of Mussolini and the destruction of the country, politically and physically, during WWII.

Putting two British drivers in the same team in 2010 because Vodafone think it would sell some more phones is not in the same league.

Not by a long, long, long way.

When you understand the difference, when you can understand what Ferrari means to the Italian pysche, then you will see why.

Of course, the importance of Ferrari as a symbol of Italian success does not have the same gravitas if you are unaware of the history of Italy.

This is a different sort of nationalism to which I think Mr Devote is recoiling.

That nationalism, which I assume is the sort promoted by the original Silver Arrows, was indeed both brutal and ugly and sinister.

The national pride produced by the Ferrari story is an altogether more benevolent entity.

So I am intrigued to understand how being nationalistic is OK for some, but not for others.

And to highlight this, I use the comparison and point out that Ferrari does not and has not had a competetive Italian driver on the books for quite some years.

Now, given how fervent Italians are, and how, if you cut an Italian in half it says Ferrari inside, why are there not more Italians in F1. I accept that not all will be superstars, but the point about Ferrari being Italy and Vice Versa just does not ring true when you consider that talent vis a vis F1 drivers is not there to represent the country of the Scuderia. If it was as hyped, everyone would be wanting to drive for their team.......

My point I guess is that maybe, just maybe there is a bit too much pomp, and not enough circumstance?

I am not being derogatory to Ferrari, nor to the Italian nation, just asking the question, and pushing the point.

Bagwan

24th August 2010, 16:28

SGWilko

24th August 2010, 16:31

It is enough for the Tifosi to see all drivers wish to be in a red cockpit , as I read it .
The way to the top step of the podium is to have the fastest , not the most Italian driver .
Drive well for the Scuderia , and you may become an "honourary Italian" for a time .

Well, if Ferrari is winning, I imagine Italy is happy.

But how much better would that win be if it was via an Italian driver?

pallone col bracciale

24th August 2010, 17:06

Well, if Ferrari is winning, I imagine Italy is happy.

But how much better would that win be if it was via an Italian driver?

It is the car which is important.

Understand that, and you understand the difference.

Bagwan

24th August 2010, 17:27

Well, if Ferrari is winning, I imagine Italy is happy.

But how much better would that win be if it was via an Italian driver?

When Enzo was around , he decided that no more of his country's sons would be risked at an Ferrari wheel .
It was different then , with so many lost each season .

There was great pride shown when an Italian took the wheel last year , but also great trepidation whether he would stand well under the pressure .

Sure , I think the nation would be happy to have an Italian champion , but clearly , the aim is for a red car to win , and the Tifosi understand this fully .

To the Tifosi , an average driver is not good enough , be he Italian or anything else .
And , if one that is good enough comes along , they will make every effort to sign him , happily .

And , judging from the decision regarding Fischichella's replacing Massa last year , the Scuderia is sometimes prone to letting nationalism creep in , albeit rarely . I'm not so sure he was the best available at the time .
But , maybe that's how they saw it .

It's really down to the order of importance .
To win is paramount .
I don't think anyone is saying that the Italian nation would be unhappy if an Italian driving for Ferrari won .
But , rather , that anyone , including an Italian , who didn't win , would make the nation unhappy .

pallone col bracciale

24th August 2010, 17:42

When Enzo was around , he decided that no more of his country's sons would be risked at an Ferrari wheel .
It was different then , with so many lost each season .

There was great pride shown when an Italian took the wheel last year , but also great trepidation whether he would stand well under the pressure .

Sure , I think the nation would be happy to have an Italian champion , but clearly , the aim is for a red car to win , and the Tifosi understand this fully .

To the Tifosi , an average driver is not good enough , be he Italian or anything else .
And , if one that is good enough comes along , they will make every effort to sign him , happily .

And , judging from the decision regarding Fischichella's replacing Massa last year , the Scuderia is sometimes prone to letting nationalism creep in , albeit rarely . I'm not so sure he was the best available at the time .
But , maybe that's how they saw it .

It's really down to the order of importance .
To win is paramount .
I don't think anyone is saying that the Italian nation would be unhappy if an Italian driving for Ferrari won .
But , rather , that anyone , including an Italian , who didn't win , would make the nation unhappy .

Bravissimo!

An excellent description of the situation.

Bagwan

24th August 2010, 19:23

Bravissimo!

An excellent description of the situation.

Thank you .
It's good to know that I understand .

Garry Walker

24th August 2010, 20:15

Just popping in to say how hopeful I am for serious engine problems for the Ferrari cars (well, the one driven by Alonso anyway) at Spa :D

donKey jote

24th August 2010, 20:33

You really have a crush on him don't you :laugh:

Garry Walker

24th August 2010, 20:37

You really have a crush on him don't you :laugh:

Yeah, all I need is 20 minutes with him :rotflmao:

SGWilko

24th August 2010, 20:40

When Enzo was around , he decided that no more of his country's sons would be risked at an Ferrari wheel .
It was different then , with so many lost each season .

There was great pride shown when an Italian took the wheel last year , but also great trepidation whether he would stand well under the pressure .

Sure , I think the nation would be happy to have an Italian champion , but clearly , the aim is for a red car to win , and the Tifosi understand this fully .

To the Tifosi , an average driver is not good enough , be he Italian or anything else .
And , if one that is good enough comes along , they will make every effort to sign him , happily .

And , judging from the decision regarding Fischichella's replacing Massa last year , the Scuderia is sometimes prone to letting nationalism creep in , albeit rarely . I'm not so sure he was the best available at the time .
But , maybe that's how they saw it .

It's really down to the order of importance .
To win is paramount .
I don't think anyone is saying that the Italian nation would be unhappy if an Italian driving for Ferrari won .
But , rather , that anyone , including an Italian , who didn't win , would make the nation unhappy .

If Carlsberg did Forum responses.....

I get it! Thanks Baggy.

And thanks also to pallone.

Valve Bounce

25th August 2010, 00:15

Indeed. 22 years in which to have a worthy home grown pilot.

So why was my previous post unfair?

Because, after Enzo's passing, it appeared to me that Ferrari's main aim was to hire the best F1 drivers available rather than focus on Italian drivers. This is a simple concept really as most teams want to do that.

mstillhere

25th August 2010, 01:31

Look,

My argument is as follows;

McLaren, as posted on this very thread, currently have an all British driver line-up. Great.

British team, British drivers. As a proud Brit (with little left to be proud of as successive governments have sold off everything we once had to shout about that was great about this country), it gives me something to celebrate, especially as both drivers and team are competetive in an all round competetive season.

Then, the post below pops up;

So I am intrigued to understand how being nationalistic is OK for some, but not for others.

And to highlight this, I use the comparison and point out that Ferrari does not and has not had a competetive Italian driver on the books for quite some years.

Now, given how fervent Italians are, and how, if you cut an Italian in half it says Ferrari inside, why are there not more Italians in F1. I accept that not all will be superstars, but the point about Ferrari being Italy and Vice Versa just does not ring true when you consider that talent vis a vis F1 drivers is not there to represent the country of the Scuderia. If it was as hyped, everyone would be wanting to drive for their team.......

My point I guess is that maybe, just maybe there is a bit too much pomp, and not enough circumstance?

I am not being derogatory to Ferrari, nor to the Italian nation, just asking the question, and pushing the point.

I don't know if I fully agree with what you wrote. If I understand Italians enough, if you cut one in a half I don't think you are going to find Ferrari written inside but you'd rather find Juventus, Inter MIlan, Rome, etc. Most Italian young people would rather become a famous soccer player than a profssional F1 driver. And I dare say that in GB is pretty much the same thing as anywhere else in Europe. In fact, F1 is hardly the most popular sport in Italy. I would agree that you'd find Ferrari written inside as long as that Italian is an Italian F1 tifosi but I would not generalize as you did.

This might explain the reason why you don't see that many, if any, Italians drivers in F1.

In the same token, in the U.S., although it might be regional, the majority of young people want to become famous (American) football player or basketball etc. I am not too sure how many people want to become professional racing drivers but the percentage compared to the other sports is definetly miniscule.

Bottom line: the ball is way more popular than the piston.

mstillhere

25th August 2010, 01:34

It is the car which is important.

Understand that, and you understand the difference.

I would definetly second that. I don't care who drives for Ferrari either (although I make one exception for MS). To me the most important thing is Ferrari winning.

Drivers come and go. Ferrari as a legend stands for ever.

mstillhere

25th August 2010, 01:36

Just popping in to say how hopeful I am for serious engine problems for the Ferrari cars (well, the one driven by Alonso anyway) at Spa :D

Don't jinx it :)

Valve Bounce

25th August 2010, 04:40

When Enzo was around , he decided that no more of his country's sons would be risked at an Ferrari wheel .
It was different then , with so many lost each season .

This was specifically after the crash and horror fiery aftermath of Bandini's accident.

There was great pride shown when an Italian took the wheel last year , but also great trepidation whether he would stand well under the pressure .

Sure , I think the nation would be happy to have an Italian champion , but clearly , the aim is for a red car to win , and the Tifosi understand this fully .

To the Tifosi , an average driver is not good enough , be he Italian or anything else .
And , if one that is good enough comes along , they will make every effort to sign him , happily .

And , judging from the decision regarding Fischichella's replacing Massa last year , the Scuderia is sometimes prone to letting nationalism creep in , albeit rarely . I'm not so sure he was the best available at the time .
But , maybe that's how they saw it .

It's really down to the order of importance .
To win is paramount .
I don't think anyone is saying that the Italian nation would be unhappy if an Italian driving for Ferrari won .
But , rather , that anyone , including an Italian , who didn't win , would make the nation unhappy .

I think you've got it spot on, Baggy. ;(

Valve Bounce

25th August 2010, 09:57

For those who may not be fully aware, please let me acquaint you with what happened at Lorenzo's fatal accident: http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=Bandinis+accident+at+Monaco&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=#q=Bandinis+accident+at+Monaco&hl=en&prmd=v&source=univ&tbs=vid:1&tbo=u&ei=KNx0TJyLCcikcfLF9d0F&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBwQqwQwAA&fp=7db4f7af4a13aa89
and why Enzo did not want to have Italian pilotes after that.

Even to this day, I find it impossible to study these reproductions myself. But I can tell you it has nothing to do with "old school" or "superstition", or being misguided. The fact was that Enzo was human, and he felt deeply, very deeply for Lorenzo's loss. ;(

Bagwan

25th August 2010, 12:29

If Carlsberg did Forum responses.....

I get it! Thanks Baggy.

And thanks also to pallone.

Who's Carlsberg ?

SGWilko

25th August 2010, 13:17

Who's Carlsberg ?

Carlsberg is a Danish beer, and who's tagline is 'probably the best beer in the world'.

http://www.carlsberg.co.uk/Adverts.aspx

So, cast your suspicions and preconceptions about me aside, and accept the compliment in the way it was meant.

pallone col bracciale

25th August 2010, 13:42

SGWilko

25th August 2010, 13:45

Perhaps I should add that to compare current Britain with post-war Italy is not a realistic comparison. I understand the dislike of Blair, Brown, Major & Thatcher. Typical politicians. But they did not destroy their country quite so completely as Mussolini.

It is that Ferrari's success was seen as a re-birth symbol for Italy following the catastrophe of fascism, that is why Ferrari lies deep in the heart of Italian affection.

1950's Italy was a place of poverty, recriminations, mass unemployment and emigration. There was nothing to rejoice at for the vast majority....except the exploits of a race team from Maranello.

Ferrari gave Italians a reason to be proud again.

That, added to the legends who have built up the Ferrari success in later years, is the key to understanding why it is the cars, the scuderia, which are the important thing to the Tifosi.

I also add a 'Grazie mille' for your appreciation of my previous post.

After WWII Britain continued rationing because it was, effectively, bankrupt. The money 'owed' to the USA, by Britain, for its involvement in the war, was not repaid in full until sometime after the year 2000........

Bagwan

25th August 2010, 13:47

Carlsberg is a Danish beer, and who's tagline is 'probably the best beer in the world'.

http://www.carlsberg.co.uk/Adverts.aspx

So, cast your suspicions and preconceptions about me aside, and accept the compliment in the way it was meant.

Ouch .

Wow , dude .
Touchy much ?

I really didn't get it .
And now I do .

So , thanks , I think .

pino

25th August 2010, 13:47

Guys...let's keep politcs off here thank you :)

SGWilko

25th August 2010, 13:55

Wow , dude .

Nope, never been surfing, and the urge to let the head hair grow has evaded me......

pallone col bracciale

25th August 2010, 14:12

After WWII Britain continued rationing because it was, effectively, bankrupt. The money 'owed' to the USA, by Britain, for its involvement in the war, was not repaid in full until sometime after the year 2000........

Ah, yes....but you did win the War! Italy did not have this comfort.

pallone col bracciale

25th August 2010, 14:15

Guys...let's keep politcs off here thank you :)

Sorry. I did not realise it was not allowed. I only mentioned it as a background information.

From now on....I keep it zipped!

pallone col bracciale

25th August 2010, 14:26

Also, I think that the attitude of the Tifosi that it is the Scuderia, the cars, which are of more significance than the drivers, may help to understand the reason why there is a difference between them and fans of other teams when it comes to how drivers should be treated.

The opinion that a driver being subservient to a team is, I think, a concept which does not sit well with a tradition which does not have the same affection for a car as is the case with Ferrari and its supporters.

Perhaps if it is thought that with other teams a car is something to be driven, but with the Scuderia a driver drives for Ferrari, then the reason for the different approach can be understood?

Once a driver drives for Ferrari, there is no need to instruct and order this driver. He knows what his first responsibility is.

Unless he is called Rubens! Then, he sometimes needed to be told!

gloomyDAY

25th August 2010, 17:20

Why didn't Trulli ever race for Ferrari?

Must have been because Rubens made that last corner pass on Trulli a few years back!

Bagwan

25th August 2010, 18:02

Nope, never been surfing, and the urge to let the head hair grow has evaded me......

I've only surfed in a kayak , not that it wasn't more fun than a barrel of political monkeys .
And , haven't cut my hair since some time in 1974 .

There have been moments in F1 that have been very political , I think all here acted with quite proper decorum .

Background information , deemed political or not , is always good for a complete understanding of any situation .

As long as respect is given to the potential of the explosive , TNT can be very useful .

I know I understand the Tifosi mind a little better , and I think a few others do as well , thanks to this sometimes explosive thread .

My thanks to the thread starter .

pallone col bracciale

25th August 2010, 18:59

I'm not sure that is the case with every fan who is not a Ferrari supporter. I can appreciate the tifosi are very proud of their marque, and its certainly the most prestigious brand in grand prix racing, but there are fans like myself who have different dreams when it comes to teams in F1. Since I was a child I've dreamed of driving for Mclaren, and if you asked me which F1 car I would love to drive it would be the MP4/4. Williams is also a team I admired and maybe it is linked to a desire to drive for teams from my country, or the fact Ferrari were less than dominant in the 80's and 90's when I grew up? I don't know, but if I was an F1 driver I would class my career as complete if I got a drive with Mclaren. Ferrari would be nice, but it wouldn't be my top choice. Thats the diversity of F1 fans, and probably the reason why we enjoy the sport for a variety of reasons. :)

But these teams, with respect, have not had the core support of the Scuderia. Maybe for you, individually, but overall? I do not believe so, or the people who cheered for Williams would not cheer for Mclaren now. Not if it was the same as being Tifoso.

What I try to explain is that, with Hamilton and Mansell and Hill, it did not matter to their supporters so much who they drove for, as the British tradition is to focus support on a driver and not a marque.

In Italy, this is the reverse.

ioan

25th August 2010, 19:02

Nope, never been surfing, and the urge to let the head hair grow has evaded me......

:eek: And me thinking that in fact the hair evaded you head! :p

ioan

25th August 2010, 19:04

But these teams, with respect, have not had the core support of the Scuderia. Maybe for you, individually, but overall? I do not believe so, or the people who cheered for Williams would not cheer for Mclaren now. Not if it was the same as being Tifoso.

What I try to explain is that, with Hamilton and Mansell and Hill, it did not matter to their supporters so much who they drove for, as the British tradition is to focus support on a driver and not a marque.

In Italy, this is the reverse.

This is mostly because you have to search hard to get a good Italian F1 driver in the last 30 years or even more.

What about Rossi, do Italians care who he rides for? I do not think so.

ioan

25th August 2010, 19:05

Why didn't Trulli ever race for Ferrari?

Who?

gloomyDAY

25th August 2010, 19:55

Who? :D Point well taken.

pallone col bracciale

25th August 2010, 20:38

This is mostly because you have to search hard to get a good Italian F1 driver in the last 30 years or even more.

What about Rossi, do Italians care who he rides for? I do not think so.

But, for this argument not to be a case of apples and oranges, two fruit you like to speak about before, which Italian motorbike teams have been in MotoGP since 1950?

The answer is "Nessun"

There is no equivalent to Ferrari for Italian motorbike fans. Yes, Ducati are there now, but not always.

If there was an equivalent, then it would matter who Rossi rode for.

pallone col bracciale

25th August 2010, 20:41

You could be right, but motor racing is big business in the UK and people here are just as passionate when watching the sport. Sure they don't adore one team over any other but thats because we've had a regular influx of British drivers over the past few decades just like ioan said. Where I live for example, 5 of the 12 teams are based within 30 miles and a further 2 within 60 miles. My local pub has references to F1 on the walls, much of it Schumacher in his Benetton days, I know its hard to believe Schuey was popular here once upon a time lol. Its just a different type of support. :)

But it is more a driver-based support, no? The British did not stop cheering Mansell when he drove for Ferrari, for example.

An Italian beating Ferrari would not be cheered by the Monza crowd with the same feeling that the British gave to Mansell in a scarlet machine. It would not be received so well.

An example of how i understand this - I do not recall a sea of Williams or Mclaren flags at Silverstone or Brands Hatch. Plenty of Union Jacks, many with the drivers surname on them, but not specific team banners.

That is not the same as Monza or Imola with the huge Ferrari badge banners.

pallone col bracciale

25th August 2010, 21:07

So, a question...

If Hamilton one day signs for Ferrari, how many Mclaren flags do you think would wave at Silverstone?

I am not convinced there is deep affection for Mclaren like that.

ioan

25th August 2010, 21:28

But, for this argument not to be a case of apples and oranges, two fruit you like to speak about before, which Italian motorbike teams have been in MotoGP since 1950?

The answer is "Nessun"

There is no equivalent to Ferrari for Italian motorbike fans. Yes, Ducati are there now, but not always.

If there was an equivalent, then it would matter who Rossi rode for.

You mean Ducati are no one?!
They were in motorbike sports in one series or another for quite a few decades already.

Valve Bounce

26th August 2010, 02:31

pino, what is the most important objective of the Tifosi? Ferrari, or an Italian driver (say in another car?)
I suspect that any driver in a Ferrari, like Alonso say, is more important than say someone like Fisi winning a race in a Force India.
Could you please adjudicate this for me. Thanks.

pino

26th August 2010, 05:14

Roamy

26th August 2010, 05:56

Ferrari is above everything and everyone ;)

Well who in their right mind would ever question that ???

SGWilko

26th August 2010, 08:52

:eek: And me thinking that in fact the hair evaded you head! :p

:laugh: ! Fortunately, I come from a long line of 'non baldy' males. ;)

SGWilko

26th August 2010, 09:01

But it is more a driver-based support, no? The British did not stop cheering Mansell when he drove for Ferrari, for example.

You may well have hit the nail on the head there.

No-one supports Button less because he no longer drives for BAR/Honda/Brawn, or WIlliams for that matter.

I understand very clearly now the ethos behind the Tifosi support for the Scuderia.

Why give a flying fornication who is driving, so long as they are winning and bringing home titles?

Robinho

26th August 2010, 11:36

is this not more about Ferrrai being THE italian team, whilst there have been a few minnows come and go there has only ever really been 1 Italian team (unless you go right back to the days of Alfa and Maserati), whereas in the UK we have had multiple teams to choose from.

If there was only McLaren or Williams (or Jordan, Red Bull/Jaguar/Stewart, Lotus (old and new) Tyrell, BRM etc etc then maybe the British support would sit behind the one team, but by the nature of the F1 industry in the UK there are multiple options, all with varying levels of success in recent history - for Italy there has only really been Ferrari for a very long time.

hence the british support is more diluted, and also more fickle as it easy to follow several teams but retain the passion for individual drivers (who obviously come and go)

Big Ben

26th August 2010, 11:52

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86109

this is getting ridiculous. It seems they are not able to enforce their own rules. Why not ban both teams just to be sure?

SGWilko

26th August 2010, 11:53

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86109

this is getting ridiculous. It seems they are not able to enforce their own rules. Why not ban both teams just to be sure?

Surely they are merely attempting to ensure there is a level playing field.

Are flexible floors allowed?

Big Ben

26th August 2010, 12:29

"These are the rules and this is how we are going enforce them... do the best you can. Good luck and see you next year". That's the fair way. All of them know from the start what the standards are and the most clever wins... as he should do.

This would be great especially in issues like flexible devices. Since everything flexes more or less... the only standards you have are those tests. Who would design their cars to pass tougher tests just to be sure?

Mia 01

26th August 2010, 17:23

ArrowsFA1

28th August 2010, 10:13

So, a question...

If Hamilton one day signs for Ferrari, how many Mclaren flags do you think would wave at Silverstone?

I am not convinced there is deep affection for Mclaren like that.
It's an interesting question. I suspect that when, for example, Mansell moved from Williams to Ferrari his fans followed him, but did not necessarily become Ferrari fans. They were Mansell fans first and foremost so they wore and waved the colours of the team he was with at the time. I would think that much the same would happen if Hamilton ever drives for Ferrari.

I agree that there is not such a deep affection for McLaren among fans as there is for Ferrari, although through the James Hunt and John Watson years there is a strong link to the team among British fans. However, I think there probably is a stronger affection for Williams. If anything Williams are closer to Ferrari in terms of strength of support, but the Tifosi's devotion is something different.

Mia 01

30th August 2010, 19:45

Now ferrari and their drivers need a miracle. fernando is a very inseure man deep inside it seems.

SGWilko

30th August 2010, 19:48

Now ferrari and their drivers need a miracle. fernando is a very inseure man deep inside it seems.

Overrated = Alonso

ioan

30th August 2010, 21:18

2007 was the year when Alonso confidence was broken.
He always asked for weak team mates and he thought that 2007 will be a stroll in the park alongside a rookie driver, and he got beaten.
Since then he over drove the car and needed team orders, rigged races or the leader's car breaking down in order to win.
He is by far the most overrated F1 driver in the last decade.

If Lewis wins this season's titles he will further rattle this cry baby's confidence.

ioan

30th August 2010, 21:19

Overrated = Alonso

Not to mention overpaid!

SGWilko

31st August 2010, 09:11

Not to mention overpaid!

If only this was the weekend of the British GP, then I could add;

"....and over here"!!! :laugh:

ShiftingGears

31st August 2010, 13:32

Alonso's 2006 season was brilliant - too bad none of his seasons since have really come close.

Retro Formula 1

31st August 2010, 16:45

Alonso's 2006 season was brilliant - too bad none of his seasons since have really come close.

I think we will see Alonso on top again. He's an exceptional driver and in my opinion, on a par with Hamilton.

I think that Hamilton or Alonso in a Red Bull would have made this a pretty boring year with the championship already sewn up.

ioan

31st August 2010, 17:38

Alonso's 2006 season was brilliant - too bad none of his seasons since have really come close.

Can you say Michelin?!

SGWilko

31st August 2010, 17:42

Can you say Michelin?!

Not after a few shandies! :laugh:

pallone col bracciale

31st August 2010, 19:59

Can you say Michelin?!

Ok, and for Michael's wins at Ferrari, can you say Bridgestone?

Every succesful driver has had an advantage to achieve his success.

ioan

31st August 2010, 20:18

Ok, and for Michael's wins at Ferrari, can you say Bridgestone?

Every succesful driver has had an advantage to achieve his success.

MS also won with Goodyear! Even championships! :D

pallone col bracciale

31st August 2010, 20:27

MS also won with Goodyear! Even championships! :D

No championships on Goodyear with Ferrari.

To do this, even the greatest driver needed an advantage.

DexDexter

31st August 2010, 20:42

I think we will see Alonso on top again. He's an exceptional driver and in my opinion, on a par with Hamilton.

I think that Hamilton or Alonso in a Red Bull would have made this a pretty boring year with the championship already sewn up.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but why do you think Alonso is on par with Hamilton when Hamilton had the measure of him in his rookie year?

IMO A good question would be whether Alonso is doing worse at Ferrari than Räikkönen was? So far, the answer would appear to be yes.

SGWilko

31st August 2010, 20:47

Ok, and for Michael's wins at Ferrari, can you say Bridgestone?

Bespoke to the Ferrari I might add?

pallone col bracciale

31st August 2010, 21:06

Bespoke to the Ferrari I might add?

Yes, without doubt, although given the legend of Ferrari that is not a great surprise.

If you think Bridgestone were keen to favour Ferrari for marketing reasons, which I believe they did, as did Michelin with Renault, then you can expect Pirelli to be even more keen.

ioan

31st August 2010, 21:10

No championships on Goodyear with Ferrari.

To do this, even the greatest driver needed an advantage.

No ****?!
We will now start picking only the years and teams that suit your POV?

What did Alonso manage outside of Renault? Bugger all!
What did MS without Ferrari? 2 WDC titles!

Spot the difference?

BDunnell

31st August 2010, 23:02

No ****?!
We will now start picking only the years and teams that suit your POV?

What did Alonso manage outside of Renault? Bugger all!
What did MS without Ferrari? 2 WDC titles!

Spot the difference?

Every time I read a post of yours about Ferrari since your sudden 'conversion', it astonishes me, and not in a good way. What more can I say? The comment I've quoted above is exactly the sort of thing you would (rightly) have castigated as being nonsense a year or two ago.

Mia 01

1st September 2010, 08:21

SGWilko

1st September 2010, 09:07

If you think Bridgestone were keen to favour Ferrari for marketing reasons, which I believe they did, as did Michelin with Renault, then you can expect Pirelli to be even more keen.

Hope not, Pirelli, IIRC, were unable to build tyres to last a race distance. Sure, for the 5 or so laps they held together they were blistering (scuse the pun), but races have rarely been run over only a handful of laps.

Retro Formula 1

1st September 2010, 12:42

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but why do you think Alonso is on par with Hamilton when Hamilton had the measure of him in his rookie year?

IMO A good question would be whether Alonso is doing worse at Ferrari than Räikkönen was? So far, the answer would appear to be yes.

I think Kimi got royally shafted at Ferrari. I do think Alonso would be the more successful out of the two because he's more of a b****rd. Kimi is Kimi.

About the first year, I think Alonso learned a lesson. He tried to win by default instead of on the track. Then he tried to blacmail his team and eventually got handed a butt full of whoop ass.

These days, I feel that Hamilton will beat Alonso but they are pretty close. On par may be wrong but it's not the driving that will seperate them.

Still, all opinion.

jens

1st September 2010, 17:44

Interesting that without German GP team orders Massa would be only 18 points behind Alonso. Actually I wanted to say that to me it seems like Massa has managed to raise his game since Valencia, being capable of more or less matching Alonso's pace. Shame he gave too much away in the first half of the season, so now he doesn't have much else to do than simply wait for 2011.

DexDexter

1st September 2010, 18:56

jens

1st September 2010, 19:01

2011 will not change anything. Alonso is the number one driver and Massa will play second fiddle. That's just the strategy they've adopted, right or wrong.

In Australia or Malaysia Massa wasn't asked to move over, when the Ferrari drivers were still close in the standings. In the end #1 drivers are decided on track. Webber was considered to be a #2, but this doesn't prevent him from being the bigger title contender of the two RBR drivers.

ioan

1st September 2010, 20:01

In Australia or Malaysia Massa wasn't asked to move over, when the Ferrari drivers were still close in the standings. In the end #1 drivers are decided on track. Webber was considered to be a #2, but this doesn't prevent him from being the bigger title contender of the two RBR drivers.

The difference being that Webber isn't racing against Santander, I mean Alonsita. ;)

pino

1st September 2010, 20:48

The difference being that Webber isn't racing against Santander, I mean Alonsita. ;)

ioan...the name is Alonso, do remember that !

DexDexter

1st September 2010, 20:49

In Australia or Malaysia Massa wasn't asked to move over, when the Ferrari drivers were still close in the standings. In the end #1 drivers are decided on track. Webber was considered to be a #2, but this doesn't prevent him from being the bigger title contender of the two RBR drivers.

Fernando hadn't stamped his authority then, now he has.

SGWilko

1st September 2010, 20:52

Fernando hadn't stamped his authority then, now he has.

Fernando hadn't stamped his foot and scweemed very loudly then, now he has. ;)

pallone col bracciale

1st September 2010, 20:56

Fernando hadn't stamped his authority then, now he has.

Which is why he was signed, and what the money he is paid is for.

And why this Tifoso is happy with the progress of the Scuderia with Alonso.

ioan

1st September 2010, 21:20

ioan...the name is Alonso, do remember that !

You're right it's the mighty cry baby 'let me through' Alonso, or shall we call him Mr. Wet Setup Alonso?
Whichever you prefer mighty pino.

Roamy

2nd September 2010, 04:54

You're right it's the mighty cry baby 'let me through' Alonso, or shall we call him Mr. Wet Setup Alonso?
Whichever you prefer mighty pino.

I think I will call him Mr. Monza

want to bet big mouth!!!!!!

DexDexter

2nd September 2010, 07:37

Which is why he was signed, and what the money he is paid is for.

And why this Tifoso is happy with the progress of the Scuderia with Alonso.

La Gazzetta Dello Sport readers were not happy after Spa, based on the numerous comments I read but I guess they're not Tifoso. But I agree, Alonso was signed to be the lead driver, it's just that he is not Michael Schumacher of 1996.

Big Ben

2nd September 2010, 07:43

La Gazzetta Dello Sport readers were not happy after Spa, based on the numerous comments I read but I guess they're not Tifoso. But I agree, Alonso was signed to be the lead driver, it's just that he is not Michael Schumacher of 1996.

Are you sure....? Alonso 2010 seems to be just as successful as Schumacher 1996. I hope he's not going to be like the Schumacher 1997, Schumacher 1998, Schumacher 1999. That would be too much.

Big Ben

2nd September 2010, 07:44

You're right it's the mighty cry baby 'let me through' Alonso, or shall we call him Mr. Wet Setup Alonso?
Whichever you prefer mighty pino.

I'd prefer 'The man that retired the man that retired Schumacher' Alonso.

Retro Formula 1

2nd September 2010, 09:57

Which is why he was signed, and what the money he is paid is for.

And why this Tifoso is happy with the progress of the Scuderia with Alonso.

Just what is the progress this year? Ferrari started off OK but since Massa got screwed, they look to be struggleing. Well, Alonso anyway. Massa was a bit demotivated but seems to be doing a Webber and proving himself even though the team are behind the other driver.

Considering the advantage Alonso has in the team, Massa isn't doing too badly I don't think. Without Massa being forced to gift a win to Alonso, they would both have a win a piece this year and the gap between them would be considerably less. As it is, they are beside each other in the standings.

This years Ferrari is (in my opinion) the second best car out there and on some occassions, has been the class of the field. Massa is highly experienced and Alonso a 2xWDC so why the f*** is McLaren taking the fight to Red Bull and not Ferrari?

Tifosi may be happy with Alonso in the team and that's fine but if I was one, I would be asking what the hell is happening??? I have huge respect for Alonso but he is not getting the results I think he should and is squandering the advantage he has over his lap dog team mate.