The Ferrari thread ! [Archive] - Page 3

mstillhere

31st August 2009, 02:28

And I wasn't talking about you either! ;)

Now you are excusing him. :D

It's not ridiculous at all, because jas... isn't and will never be a Ferrari fan, let alone a Tifoso, he hates Ferrari and he hates MS, he only finds himself in teh situation of being a Kimi fan and if you look back to 2006 posts about Kimi going to Ferrari you'll see that 95% of his fans were trashing Ferrari left, right and center, and even now they are more McLaren fans than Ferrari fans. In conclusion they never were, and never will be Tifosi!

So you don't understand what a Tifoso is.

It has nothing to do with being Italian and supporting fellow Italians. It's about supporting Ferrari, no matter who drives or works for them. It's a about sticking with the Ferrari team no matter what.

Hopefully now you understand it better.

I second everything Ioan has said. AS a Ferrari fan I can't care less who is driving Ferrari. The only thing that matters is that Ferrari wins.

I have to say, in all honesty, that we as Ferrrai fans have to make an exception with MS, whos has done and still does so much for Ferrari and viceversa of course.

It was one of those rare symbiosis that happens once every 1000 years. Anyone else, Kimi and Massa included, never fully understood the true racing soul of Ferrari. And that's why I can't care less if no Italian has not driven a Ferrari in recent years. It does not really matter. Anyone, of any nationality, is welcome to make the name Ferrari as great and prestigiuos as possible.

Hawkmoon

31st August 2009, 10:41

So, who is going to drive for Ferrari next year?

According to F1 Racing it'll be Alonso and Raikkonen with Massa moving to Renault. Massa comes back in 2011 when Raikkonen's contract expires.

Probably the stupidest thing I've read regarding the 2010 Ferrari seats in a long time. :dozey:

555-04Q2

31st August 2009, 11:26

Well done to Kimi and Ferrari :up: I knew they had a win in them for 2009 :)

Now for another one at home boys!

F1boat

31st August 2009, 11:27

Well done to Kimi and Ferrari :up: I knew they had a win in them for 2009 :)

Now for another one at home boys!

Yes! Victory for Kimi in Monza will be perfect!

ShiftingGears

31st August 2009, 13:25

Psycho!

31st August 2009, 13:39

BTW, what can we expect from Monza? After such brilliant win I hope that KERS will allow the scarlet car of Raikkonen to win again!
Unfortunately, I am not so optimistic,because Kimi told that Monza's kerbs will be a problem for Ferrari...The same happenned last year I think.... :(

jens

31st August 2009, 14:54

According to F1 Racing it'll be Alonso and Raikkonen with Massa moving to Renault. Massa comes back in 2011 when Raikkonen's contract expires.

Probably the stupidest thing I've read regarding the 2010 Ferrari seats in a long time. :dozey:

Although in a weird way it would make a bit of sense too in the current mess of contracts, although not the Renault part. It should more likely be Sauber-Ferrari. ;)

Tazio

31st August 2009, 14:58

So, who is going to drive for Ferrari next year?

Two guys, maybe three wearing funny looking red suits :dozey: :)

555-04Q2

31st August 2009, 16:03

So, who is going to drive for Ferrari next year?

Michael Schumacher, Fernando Alonso and Felipe Massa. You hear it here first folks :p :

ioan

31st August 2009, 22:12

Sorry if this has been extensively discussed before couldn't find anything...

So can the wheel trim flying off Badoer's car be treated in the same way as the incident with Renault? Wondered at the time what the people slating the FIA's decision regarding Renault had a different one now a similar incident is related to Ferrari??

Any thoughts?

I don't remember Ferrari sending him out on track knowing full well that the part was not well attached to the car.
Than there's a difference between a wheel and a wheel fairing.

BDunnell

31st August 2009, 23:02

I don't remember Ferrari sending him out on track knowing full well that the part was not well attached to the car.
Than there's a difference between a wheel and a wheel fairing.

But that fairing could have flown off into the crowd and seriously hurt someone. Is that not a sufficient level of risk to justify the imposition of a ban on something or other?

1st September 2009, 14:34

But that fairing could have flown off into the crowd and seriously hurt someone. Is that not a sufficient level of risk to justify the imposition of a ban on something or other?

Nobody said jack when Nakajima drove around Valencia with his rear tyre disentegrating.

SGWilko

1st September 2009, 14:37

Nobody said jack when Nakajima drove around Valencia with his rear tyre disentegrating.

Was there a risk the wheel would fall off?

There was a risk of shards of carbon fibre being scattered, but hey, if cars bump into each other there is just as much risk of that, isn't there? They still race don't they? Contact is still made, isn't it?

I do not think there is enough cotton wool in the world to make open seater racing safe beyond all doubt......

ioan

1st September 2009, 14:41

Nobody said jack when Nakajima drove around Valencia with his rear tyre disentegrating.

Not to mention that BDunnell has been vehemently posting in the thread about security that there should be no reaction to parts flying of the cars.

Talk about double measures.

1st September 2009, 14:42

Was there a risk the wheel would fall off?

There was a great big chunk of Bridgestone left in the road. Imagine what that could do to an unsighted driver.

True, things fall of race cars all the time, but if we are going to have the consistency that most people seem to want, then consistency should have been applied to Nakajima.

That nobody said anything does seem odd.

ioan

1st September 2009, 14:43

I do not think there is enough cotton wool in the world to make open seater racing safe beyond all doubt......

You are underestimating the cotton wool production by a huge margin. ;)

DexDexter

1st September 2009, 14:52

Indeed this should be deemed dangerous too under recent circumstances. The sport certainly shows elements of paranoia. The one arguement could be that a desentegrated tyre is less aerodynamic so would lose velocity very quickly compared to a wheel fairing which would act like a frisbee. I'm not to judge however, but without pointing the finger, people were keen to call for the hangman when Renault were at fault but seem to side step the incident with Ferrari.. Strange indeed..

Maybe open-wheel type of cars should be banned altogether since there is always a possibility of something falling of the car. Come on lads, this ain't going nowhere. FIA does what it does and we are stuck with it.

DexDexter

1st September 2009, 15:08

You didn't sense the element of sarcasm in my post then?
I was merely saying that the sport has now become paranoid about dangers on the track since the Surtees and Massa incidents. I was also suggesting that people on this forum will point the finger at one team and then by rotten luck, their favs do a similar thing and all of a sudden theres a reasonable answer.. Just laughing at the irony.. :)

I read it too quickly :rolleyes:

2nd September 2009, 13:46

II'm not to judge however, but without pointing the finger, people were keen to call for the hangman when Renault were at fault but seem to side step the incident with Ferrari.. Strange indeed..

No offence, but do you have a link to an article about Badoer's incident. I've not heard about it.

SGWilko

2nd September 2009, 14:01

No offence, but do you have a link to an article about Badoer's incident. I've not heard about it.

Apparently, there is this great site called youtube....., or I am sure Auntie will have the full race still on Iplayer.

jimakos

2nd September 2009, 14:17

I want to ask you guys what names are hearing for replacing Badoer this time?
Our Ferrari must ends in 3rd place so we need some points from the 2nd Ferrari driver!
It seems ''iceman'' woke up and can take pondiums but alone can't make something goog...

SGWilko

2nd September 2009, 14:30

Sir Jimmy Saville?

How's about that now then now then boys and girls.

I've fixed it for you, Stefano Dominicale.....

And, then you can take the whole race team on a roller coaster, while eating a packed lunch.

Sorry, as you were everyone!!! ;)

jimakos

2nd September 2009, 14:34

SGWilko

2nd September 2009, 14:35

What's that post means??

Nothing buddy, I was poking fun in Ferrari's direction. Along the lines of 'you can not do any more damage than has already been done'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wwPeSDCCAs

Tazio

2nd September 2009, 15:45

Nothing buddy, I was poking fun in Ferrari's direction. Along the lines of 'you can not do any more damage than has already been done'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wwPeSDCCAs

Thanks for being such a swell guy helping someone who doesn't use English as a first language. :up:
And me thinkig you were a capo in the Anglo/Mafia :(

SGWilko

2nd September 2009, 15:47

And me thinkig you were a capo in the Anglo/Mafia :(

Nah, I just make the tea.

(or should that be Espresso?)

Tazio

2nd September 2009, 16:17

Nah, I just make the tea.

(or should that be Espresso?)

No it's most definately tea. (as if you didn't know) Don't play coy with me mister.
There a war going on and I make it a point to know where wise guys sympathies lie.
So your an up and comer! Did Ron have you infiltrate this thred???
I Knew it. Certain types don't make it out of here alive :uhoh:

http://twoons.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/zombie-throwing-mob-hit-twoons.jpg

SGWilko

2nd September 2009, 16:18

No it's most definately tea. (as if you didn't know) Don't play coy with me mister.
There a war going on and I make it a point to know where wise guys sympathies lie.
So your an up and comer! Did Ron have you infiltrate this thred???
I Knew it. Certain types don't make it out of here alive :uhoh:

http://twoons.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/zombie-throwing-mob-hit-twoons.jpg

Ssshhhhhh.

The bicycle is shining on my knee.

Corny

2nd September 2009, 17:43

I was in Spa last weekend. And as a Ferrari fan, I didn't mind he took over the first place :D

I made a movie from it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co9oghHdI-k Sure Raikkonen is still populair

Tazio

2nd September 2009, 17:58

I was in Spa last weekend. And as a Ferrari fan, I didn't mind he took over the first place :D

I made a movie from it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co9oghHdI-k Sure Raikkonen is still populairYea' babe :beer:
That Kimi is a "cold-blooded piece of work" :burnout:
Fisi got smoked on that pass! I almost forgot how badly Kimi punked him :laugh:

3rd September 2009, 08:49

Hey Tamb, I've been abit of a sad case I'm afraid... Went home from work and put the quali on the sky+ box, and BANG 16 mins 20 secs in, it shows the Badoer incident... the driver behind was Timo Glock and the wheel fairing hit the air intake above his head.. It will probably be on Youtube over the next week once FOM have stopped blocking the latest videos.. ;)

I'll keep an eye out for links...

Grazie.

Did Ferrari know it was lose, or was it like Barrichello's spring? If they knew it was loose, then they should have parked it,but if ot just broke in an instant there would be nothing they could do.

Unlike Nakajima's shredding tyre.

SGWilko

3rd September 2009, 09:08

I don't get why people are now calling for the teams to be banned or fined now when this happens, or even parking the car just in case.

I do, it's called 'jumping on the bandwagon'

gloomyDAY

17th October 2009, 02:41

I'm going to feel a bit empty inside knowing that Ferrari are not going to be competitive at Brazil. Over the past decade they've shown unparalleled prowess at Brazil and now they'll be fighting for scraps.

I hope next year is better. As long as Alonso doesn't throw a fit, it should be fine.

ioan

17th October 2009, 10:30

Robinho

17th October 2009, 10:44

ioan

17th October 2009, 15:11

i don't get the "no development thing"

unless i'm mistaken the aero rules are pretty much the same for next year, the main change being a bigger fuel tank (and probably no Kers), so you'd expect if they are working hard on next years car, and really have written off this years, they'd still bring some of the new aero parts they are working on for next year to get some valuable track testing - even if they don't completely gel with the design philosophy of this years car the ought to be able to get some decent baselines ahead of winter testing of the new car?

Obviously this year's car started on the wrong basis so next year's car will be a completely new concept.
Bolting on parts designed for a different car won't make the F60 any faster, au contraire it will most probably make it slower.
In order to be effective a F1 car's aerodynamics have to be 100% synchronized from the front wing to the rear wing, this means that a new front wing will prompt the use of a different nose cone, different sidepods, different engine cover and rear wing and maybe even a different difuser.

Ferrari simply decided that it's no use to lose valuable CFD and wind tunnel testing time on this year's car but rather use 100% of the already limited use of the aforementioned R&D tools to come up with the best car next season.
This is my view on their approach.

Robinho

17th October 2009, 17:45

Obviously this year's car started on the wrong basis so next year's car will be a completely new concept.
Bolting on parts designed for a different car won't make the F60 any faster, au contraire it will most probably make it slower.
In order to be effective a F1 car's aerodynamics have to be 100% synchronized from the front wing to the rear wing, this means that a new front wing will prompt the use of a different nose cone, different sidepods, different engine cover and rear wing and maybe even a different difuser.

Ferrari simply decided that it's no use to lose valuable CFD and wind tunnel testing time on this year's car but rather use 100% of the already limited use of the aforementioned R&D tools to come up with the best car next season.
This is my view on their approach.

which i think is a pretty reasonable view too, but this years car can't be that bad - its made the podium a few times and won a race. it seems to be a right old handful, but can be pretty quick. i'd have thought there must be some good things in this years car that will get carried over.

i take your point on parts not being correct for this car if designed with next year in mind, it can only indicate that they are starting next year from a completely blank sheet of paper - this is pretty risky IMO, given the amount of similarity for next years rules, other already quick cars which take the good bits and evolve next year could be even further ahead of a new car starting development from scratch, and that is assuming they get it right this time, which based on what we've seen this year is certainly not a given

ioan

17th October 2009, 19:30

which i think is a pretty reasonable view too, but this years car can't be that bad - its made the podium a few times and won a race. it seems to be a right old handful, but can be pretty quick. i'd have thought there must be some good things in this years car that will get carried over.

i take your point on parts not being correct for this car if designed with next year in mind, it can only indicate that they are starting next year from a completely blank sheet of paper - this is pretty risky IMO, given the amount of similarity for next years rules, other already quick cars which take the good bits and evolve next year could be even further ahead of a new car starting development from scratch, and that is assuming they get it right this time, which based on what we've seen this year is certainly not a given

For a start next year's cars will have a different weight distribution, given the minimum weight and fuel weight rule changes, and most probably a longer wheel base, which makes it a very different concept from what we have now.

Robinho

17th October 2009, 19:47

For a start next year's cars will have a different weight distribution, given the minimum weight and fuel weight rule changes, and most probably a longer wheel base, which makes it a very different concept from what we have now.

true, and some of the experience gained from carrying Kers might be useful to the team when accounting for extra fuel weight

Garry Walker

18th October 2009, 19:08

true, and some of the experience gained from carrying Kers might be useful to the team when accounting for extra fuel weight

How?

Robinho

18th October 2009, 19:27

How?

beacause they have managed the adverse effect of carrying the extra weight this year, and will undoubtedly have learned things about weight distribution management. dropping Kers, but having extra weight from fuel might mean that they are able to understand and manage that better than teams that didn't run Kers this year.

Garry Walker

18th October 2009, 19:31

beacause they have managed the adverse effect of carrying the extra weight this year, and will undoubtedly have learned things about weight distribution management. dropping Kers, but having extra weight from fuel might mean that they are able to understand and manage that better than teams that didn't run Kers this year.

They didnt carry extra weight, they just had less ballast to play with.

Dave B

18th October 2009, 19:32

They didnt carry extra weight, they just had less ballast to play with.
His point is still valid, Mr Pedantic.

ioan

18th October 2009, 19:35

Name calling aside looks like 3rd place in the constructors standings is lost now.

Garry Walker

18th October 2009, 19:36

His point is still valid, Mr Pedantic.

No, it is not, bronky.

Robinho

18th October 2009, 19:49

They didnt carry extra weight, they just had less ballast to play with.

they carry the weight in a less advantageous position, the experience of which will be useful IMO

Garry Walker

18th October 2009, 19:52

they carry the weight in a less advantageous position, the experience of which will be useful IMO

I fail to see how that will be the case.

Robinho

18th October 2009, 19:59

I fail to see how that will be the case.

beacause with extra fuel weight the cars handling will be affected - from this seasons running with Kers they have experienced a bit about running with weight, other than ballast, where they don't really want it and where it affects cars handling. it might not make a massive amount of difference, but i think it will be useful to them as they've effectively been testing with extra weight in the middle of the car all year, sometimes without the benefit of the extra power when the device wasn't working.

ioan

18th October 2009, 20:01

beacause with extra fuel weight the cars handling will be affected ...

But the chassis will be different from this year's one, plus this year's car never really behaved great so the data is pretty much useless if you want to do a better car.
Also the tires will be different next season.

Robinho

18th October 2009, 20:09

But the chassis will be different from this year's one, plus this year's car never really behaved great so the data is pretty much useless if you want to do a better car.
Also the tires will be different next season.

so if they no this year is bad, the data will be useful to know what they should be aiming for/to avoid.

and for all the shouting, the car has not turned out all that bad - consisitent points scorer, race winner, albeit a tricky handler, but once the team leabned to set it up well and Kimi and Massa got to grips with its nuances they got some decent results. it might not be what Ferrari should be, but it wasn't a disaster either

there is enough carry over in the rules that this years experience will still be useful

Dave B

18th October 2009, 20:12

Data about a crap car is still useful data - it does at least teach you what not to do.

ioan

18th October 2009, 20:19

so if they no this year is bad, the data will be useful to know what they should be aiming for/to avoid.

How exactly?

When you have a concept that works like a dream you know you are spot on and you can use it to develop a better one from it.
When you have a bad one you can not use it to build on it and you can not use it to produce a new concept either cause you don't know what's wrong otherwise you wouldn't have come up with a dud in the first instance.

and for all the shouting, the car has not turned out all that bad - consisitent points scorer, race winner, albeit a tricky handler, but once the team leabned to set it up well and Kimi and Massa got to grips with its nuances they got some decent results. it might not be what Ferrari should be, but it wasn't a disaster either

The car didn't have enough potential to develop into a championship contender, thus in the F1 world it's a failure. I'm sorry to say it because I loved it's looks ever since it was launched, but it basically is a failure.

there is enough carry over in the rules that this years experience will still be useful

Like having 4 wheels (albeit different dimension and compound tires), an engine but probably without KERS, front and rear wings but with different shapes and with different relative positions, different minimum weight, no more refueling, most probably a longer wheelbase etc...

Looks like they did the right choice to go for a completely new concept.

Robinho

18th October 2009, 20:29

ioan

18th October 2009, 20:44

you'd argue to the death if anyone questions anything remotely Ferrrai wouldn't you. apologies for questioning the oracle and guardian of all knowledge Ferrrari.

you know best. the team will ignore everything from this year, good or bad. if they do then they deserve to repeat their mistakes - as do you

I see your technical knowledge came to an end and now you're starting attacking me because I'm a Ferrari fan.

Are you a Ferrari fan? No? Don't post around here just for the sake of trolling.

Robinho

18th October 2009, 20:50

i'm not trolling, i was raising a discussion based on a few thoughts i had, nothing more - i'm not trying to re-write history or telling anyone what they should be doing, only sharing what i thought about the possible advatgae in knowledge Ferrari may gain from carrying Kers this year.

i'd be very surprised if they have learned nothing form this, i'm not suggesting they design there whole car around this, only that they may use this experience when approaching some elements of the car - is it really that massive a leap to consider? rather than attacking my technical knowledge, which i assume makes you feel superior

you are the one who has gone all defensive just because its Ferrari rather than entertaining a discussion. i'm not attacking you because your a Ferrari fan. i'm an F1 fan and Ferrari is part of that, i'm interested in what they are doing and i think they might take something fomr this years experience into next year - god forbid i actually say something controversial

ioan

18th October 2009, 20:53

i'm not trolling, i was raising a discussion based on a few thoughts i had, nothing more

And I was answering it in very civilized terms just to find myself attacked in your previous post. I call that trolling.

Garry was right, this year's car is not a good basis of any kind for next season and I'm yet to see you prove the contrary with some tangible technical proof.

Robinho

18th October 2009, 21:19

And I was answering it in very civilized terms just to find myself attacked in your previous post. I call that trolling.

Garry was right, this year's car is not a good basis of any kind for next season and I'm yet to see you prove the contrary with some tangible technical proof.

i'll agree to disagree, cos we're going nowhere here.

i never said this years car was going to be a basis for next year, only that the team may have learnt a few things about carrying weight that might be useful next year. now you want technical proof - presumabley next years car, something i think even you, Mike Coughlan or Nigel Stepney would struggle to show.

if you took my post as an atack then i apologise as it wasn't one, perhaps you share more in common with Mr Button and his suppsoed frame of mind if you feel under attack.

i'll carry on in my blissful ignorance and wonder if there is anything to be gained from the experience of carrying Kers this year - i expect we'll probably never get tangible technical proof one way of the other unless someone from the team says it was not usefule, or something they learned from.

don't take it so personally, i'm only wondering about things

ioan

18th October 2009, 21:29

i'll agree to disagree, cos we're going nowhere here.

Agreed.

gloomyDAY

6th December 2009, 07:26

6th December 2009, 12:38

Why does it seem that Ferrari fans are now badmouthing Kimi?

Because he turned out to be a total disappointment who, apart from catching the coat-tails of the previous Ferrari era for his championship success (a championship he was lucky to win) did nothing to carry on the legacy that was left for him.

At least with Alonso the Tifosi will know that their man wants success and is working towards that, even if it doesn't come.

JRodrigues

6th December 2009, 15:04

Why does it seem that Ferrari fans are now badmouthing Kimi?

First, he's the wonder child kicking butt at Spa. The car wasn't even that great all season long and Kimster still managed to win! Now Satander steps in and decides to shoehorn Alonso into a Ferrari.

Now the Tifosi are mad at the Finn. Not good enough? 1 WDC and 2 WCC.

Yeah, what a loser. :rolleyes:

Because they are not fans. They are idiots.

gloomyDAY

6th December 2009, 16:10

Because he turned out to be a total disappointment...What?! The man isn't a super hero.

Kimi can't drive an under-performing car and win a title.

If Kimi had won the championship this year Ferrari would have still replaced him with Alonso. Satander was just throwing money into the face of Ferrari's upper echelon, of course they were going to take it by the bucket loads.

Because they are not fans. They are idiots.lol

Saint Devote

6th December 2009, 16:57

The tifosi amaze me in their atitiudes - which is an extension of that of the Ferrari team and attitudes which I disapprove of.

The rubbishing of Raikkonen is that of a team of ingrates that refuse to understand the driver that they have [once again - just get Niki Lauda onto the subject of Ferrari...] discarded.

The F60 was rubbish from day 1 and there is nothing to suggest that Ferrari is going to produce a car able to beat Red Bull, Mclaren or Mercedes in 2010.

Back to Kimi - he is a driver we know that has immense ability and could have won more grands prix and titles rather that a title during his career. It has always been the teams that have let him down generally.

At the two circuits that more than any other require driver input he showed that he has not changed - he is just a driver sick and tired of dealing with a crap car and fighting for fourth when in fifth - knowing that that was its maximum.

Thats Kimi. And Ferrari making him the scapegoat for its major flaws and for not being "one of the team" is the usual disgraceful Scuderia behavior.

That he in the last few races of 2010 preferred the company of the Mclaren team is an indictment of the Ferrari clique.

But at Monte Carlo and Spa he showed how bad the F60 was and that the difference was simply Kimi.

He is a driver of ironclad self-esteem and he leaves Ferrari as the driver that won them a championship. And unlike Massa who has to WORK to keep up with Kimi, has never seen the need to bad mouth or insult anyone or team.

Just watch what happens if Alonso has a "bad day at the office" and what happens if he turns any wrath towards his delicate little teammate.

It is also a disgrace and a condemnation that F1 has allowed Raikkonen to walk away so easily from f1.

Mercedes should have fought and acquiesced to keep him and agree to his demands. He is not the first and will not be the last great driver to something of a diva - but so what?

WE have all lost - and how will everyone that loves this greatest of sports not reflect quietly at both Spa and Monaco in 2010, that without Kimi the winners of these foundations of grand pix racing are less.

ioan

6th December 2009, 17:05

ioan

6th December 2009, 17:09

I'll remind gloomyDAY, JRodrigo and the self proclaimed holly ghost that this thread is not for them to post in.

If you want to badmouth us Ferrari fans than please start your own trash thread.

gloomyDAY

6th December 2009, 17:19

Not sure why you started this debate.
As far as I'm concerned I've been complaining about Kimi since last season and I did criticize him for his unfair move in Spa too.Spa 2008? You mean when Kimi pinched Hamilton? Yeah, that was a pretty sweet move. Hamilton had to cut the chicane or slam into Kimi. Yet, Hamilton still got robbed of his win.

I'm not sure why you would complain. Kimi spun on a wet track trying to get to the top of the podium. It was a battle of titans up until the end.

I'll remind gloomyDAY, JRodrigo and the self proclaimed holly ghost that this thread is not for them to post in.

If you want to badmouth us Ferrari fans than please start your own trash thread.I'm not badmouthing anyone. I just thought JR's quip was funny. What I am doing is questioning the mentality of some "fans". What if Alonso fails to win the championship next year? Throw him under the bus. It's his fault too!

Ioan, what makes me chuckle is that you'll be rooting for Alonso. Never thought I'd see the day.

ioan

6th December 2009, 17:34

Spa 2008?

Spa 2009, he overtook cars outside the track, the same reason Hamilton was given a penalty last season.

I just thought JR's quip was funny.

Weird definition of funny. I'd rather not say what I think of JRodriguez quips, he might fell the need to buy himself a rope.

What I am doing is questioning the mentality of some "fans".

Start your bash thread, this one was started by Ferrari fans for Ferrari fans in order to have a place without such gibberish like JRodriguez above remark.
Or you think that it's right to question other people's mentality while posting provocative quips?

What if Alonso fails to win the championship next year? Throw him under the bus. It's his fault too!

Let's wait and see. Jumping the gun isn't very smart.

Ioan, what makes me chuckle is that you'll be rooting for Alonso. Never thought I'd see the day.

I don't care who drives the red cars as long as he fights for the best possible results.

gloomyDAY

6th December 2009, 17:36

I don't care who drives the red cars as long as he fights for the best possible results.I don't believe that for one second.

You were giggling when Heidfeld crushed Alonso's wing at Monaco.

Roamy

6th December 2009, 18:09

It is kind of funny but anyone that can't beat Massa as a teammate is deemed a step slow!! uhmmmmmm could it be that Massa is pretty damn fast?

gloomyDAY

6th December 2009, 18:21

It is kind of funny but anyone that can't beat Massa as a teammate is deemed a step slow!! uhmmmmmm could it be that Massa is pretty damn fast?Right, Massa has been discredited as well.

I really like the little fellow. Especially since he stood up to Alonso after their little on-track battle in 2007. I think Alonso beat Massa fair and square, but Massa gave him a piece of his mind. :D

cMjknmNdvrM

Saint Devote

6th December 2009, 18:58

It is kind of funny but anyone that can't beat Massa as a teammate is deemed a step slow!! uhmmmmmm could it be that Massa is pretty damn fast?

Yes Massa is a quick driver - but then this is f1 after all and "slow" is measured in relative hundreths.

And in 2010 Massa is going to have the opportunity to show what he can do against Alonso. Nobody expects him to beat him but if he is consistently right alongside the Spaniard or shows a fair amount of outqualifying it will I think permanently shift views of the Brazilian and, the question will be put to rest.

If he does go well against Alonso he can expect petulance and spitefulness from his teammate which he has never had to deal with before.

airshifter

7th December 2009, 01:12

Not sure why you started this debate.
As far as I'm concerned I've been complaining about Kimi since last season and I did criticize him for his unfair move in Spa too.

I'll give you credit for that Ioan, you haven't liked Kimi much from the start. And in all fairness Massa was beating up on him for a while there.

I personally tend to think that Massa has proven he's a very good driver. I hope he comes back 100%, because if he does I think Alonso is going to be doing a lot of whining when Felipe beats him. Also I tend to think they need Massa for car devolopment, since even though some claim Fernando is the master at this, the Renault was trash and Alonso wasn't helping make it better.

For this upcoming season I'll remain a borderline tifosi, hoping Massa humbles Alonso. ;)

JRodrigues

7th December 2009, 01:49

Saint Devote

7th December 2009, 02:40

I'll give you credit for that Ioan, you haven't liked Kimi much from the start. And in all fairness Massa was beating up on him for a while there.

I personally tend to think that Massa has proven he's a very good driver. I hope he comes back 100%, because if he does I think Alonso is going to be doing a lot of whining when Felipe beats him. Also I tend to think they need Massa for car devolopment, since even though some claim Fernando is the master at this, the Renault was trash and Alonso wasn't helping make it better.

For this upcoming season I'll remain a borderline tifosi, hoping Massa humbles Alonso. ;)

Be fair to Alonso - nobody can make silk out of a sow's ear.

In short the Renault's problem was the advent of the one make control tyres. The switch from Michelin boutique and the different weight distribution caught out Renault in the same reaction was opposite to the positive action it had for Ferrari.

In 2008 Renault recovered and it seemed to have recovered significantly with the Alonso inspired win at the brilliant driver's circuit, Suzuka.

But then came the new regs and it really confused Renaullt still just managing to recover.

Blaming Alonso during these days of simulator testing is not fair - just look how Hamilton could do nothing with the Mclaren at the strat of 2009.

It is essential these days to have at least a capable car which a good driver can leverage at times using qualifying and strategy.

Further, this dreadful car in 2009 won POLE position in Hungary and finished THIRD in Singapore in addition to finishing well into the points on several other occasions.

That was Alonso not the car. It is also not accidental that he won two championships, especially the 2005 title where he demonstrated that the Schumacher era was over.

It was if you know the story as reported by Autosport during the following period that 2006 title win that led Montezemolo to finally decide not to re-sign Schumacher replace him with Raikkonen.

Todt disagreed, there was conflict and the rest is well known history now.

At least Montezemolo is consistent and out went Raikkonen and in comes Alonso, the long term goal of dear, soon top be former head of FOTA, Luca.

Dzeidzei

7th December 2009, 12:42

Further, this dreadful car in 2009 won POLE position in Hungary and finished THIRD in Singapore in addition to finishing well into the points on several other occasions.

That was Alonso not the car.

When Kimi won in Spa that was not him driving the wheels off a mediocre Ferrari (the latter part of 2009 was in general solid driving from Kimi). But when Freddie does the same, its the driver.

Opinions truly are like assholes.

How do the Ferrari fans see the competition between the 2 drivers now? When will the first public whining start? By Monaco?

7th December 2009, 18:10

When Kimi won in Spa that was not him driving the wheels off a mediocre Ferrari (the latter part of 2009 was in general solid driving from Kimi). But when Freddie does the same, its the driver.

Opinions truly are like assholes.

Erm, did you pay any attention to what you were watching, because you evidently missed the fact that Kimi just had a Force India to beat at Spa, due to a freak set of circumstances whereby all the front-running cars could not adapt to the unique demands of Spa.

Given the unexpected drop in previous front-runners form at Spa, the Ferrari F60, with it's KERS perfect for the uphill Eau Rouge blast, was the perfect car for Spa 2009.

Any other opinion is that of an asshole.

ioan

7th December 2009, 19:05

For Mr. (if i can call you that) ioan, I am a Ferrari fan since I first started watching F1. And the only ones I am bashing are those idiots can are always badmouthing Kimi even if he gave Ferrari 1 championship in 2 years with good cars, while Massa gave.... let me se... ZERO in 3 years with a winning car. A driver who has the record of fastest laps in one season, beating Mr.(?!?!) ioan idoal' previous record. So please excuse me if I start bashing them.

Don't know you but I have no idols, I don't need anyone too keep drooling over.

However if you, one day, decide to post something sensible I'll probably answer it, until then I doubt that you are even 1% a Ferrari fan.

ioan

7th December 2009, 19:09

When Kimi won in Spa that was not him driving the wheels off a mediocre Ferrari (the latter part of 2009 was in general solid driving from Kimi). But when Freddie does the same, its the driver.

Opinions truly are like assholes.

How do the Ferrari fans see the competition between the 2 drivers now? When will the first public whining start? By Monaco?

Look, Kimi drove well in Spa, once he passed the front runner outside the track, and I already mentioned that another driver got punished for similar moves a year ago, so I can't do anything else but consider that Kimi's move wasn't fair, all he had to do was to keep a Force India at bay which probably wasn't such a tough job with KERS at hand.
Also worth mentioning is that he looked like he was pushing for once, probably because he smelled the win, which makes me question even more his dedication during the last 2 seasons.

Kimi sure is a very talented and fast driver, but I doubt he's perfect, so criticism should be accepted with grace, IMO.

ioan

7th December 2009, 19:12

In short the Renault's problem was the advent of the one make control tyres.

We might also say that the Renault's previous success is down to Michelin developing the suspensions and tires for them.
However let's go back to Ferrari and hope their new racer will be better.

ioan

7th December 2009, 20:28

You signature suggests you are a huge fan of MS and I have witnessed you defend him to the hilt old bean. Is he not a figure of respect or even an idol for you? Lets not start teasing each other though, saying I'm a bigger Ferrari fan than you nah nah nah nah.. :p

I believe that someone can be a fan without idolizing anyone.
I'm not the kind of person who believes without questioning and that's why I technically can't have idols of any kind.

I admire that you have chosen to keep an opinion which reflects the same opinion in both circumstances. I feel that Kimi took an advantage on the grippy run off on the outside of the track, but this would have been something Kimi had discussed in his briefing with the team. Kimi used the same advantage in the 2008 GP, so he had prior knowledge of how to make it work. There is a loophole in the rules and because he didn't cut the chicane, there was no problem in the stewards eyes. Hamilton also obeyed the rules after his illegal advantage but was caught out on a technicality and difference of human opinion, so I agree that there needs to be transparancy. Hopefully we will see this from now on... :)

Hopefully.

airshifter

8th December 2009, 03:39

leopard

8th December 2009, 07:19

I think 2010 will prove that either Felipe has been underrated by many, or Fred has been overrated by many. Felipe outperformed Kimi quite a few times, and Kimi is no slouch. I expect to see Fred whining within 3-4 races. :)
Hence, ferrari will compete the next season in perfect form, provided the car is quite up to meet the challenge. Either of them has good designation developing the car, they should have worked hardly while the season is off, just wait and see that this combination works out and mutual symbiosis taken effect.
I don't see Felipe is hard person to work with and Fernando is supposed to learn from failures in his former team. Don't make the very self same mistake...

Schurke

8th December 2009, 08:11

I honestly think Ferrari will be up there challenging next year, possibly the team to beat.
I´m sure lessons have been learned this year and Ferrari will bounce back next year with Alonso leading the way.
All in all I feel next year will be a much closer battle at the front between 3 or even 4 teams.

Dzeidzei

8th December 2009, 09:30

I'm not the kind of person who believes without questioning and that's why I technically can't have idols of any kind.

Why is it so difficult to admit that you idolize MS? Theres nothing wrong with that. On the contrary.

I think you have on several occasions proven to not accept the faults MS made even though everyone else saw those (wont go into those now). That qualifies to be idolizing in my books. There is absolutely nothing wrong about that but it makes any discussion with you practically impossible.

Ive always cheered for Finnish drivers and for the last 9 years its been mostly for Kimi. Now I dont know anymore. It will be difficult to force yourself seeing lap after lap with no overtaking when there are no Finns on the grid.

Nico is of course half Finnish, but unless he returns to drive under the Finnish flag... dunno. And Im afraid it´ll be a long time before another Finnish title contender comes along.

But hey, more time to other stuff on Sundays :)

ioan

8th December 2009, 12:10

Why is it so difficult to admit that you idolize MS?

Because it's not true.
I'll go even as far as saying that I mention his name far less than any of his detractors around here. Does that mean you idolize him?! :laugh:

Get a grip man, everyone isn't like you.

8th December 2009, 17:16

I think I came to the conclusion a long time ago that you are one of gods rare creations, and you rarely share an opinion with anyone else on here. Idolize is a strong word, but he is your favourite F1 driver, well that is my impression anyway. :)

This might be a technicality but you say you mention his name far less than any of his detractors. Does mentioning him in every single one of your posts through the context of your signature count towards this?? ;)

"Michael Schumacher the best ever F1 driver"

Only joshin :p :

No your'e not, you are trolling.

You are certainly not adding to the discussion.

Go and start a Mclaren fans thread.

ioan

8th December 2009, 18:23

I think I came to the conclusion a long time ago that you are one of gods rare creations...

Finally you saw the light! :p :

Idolize is a strong word, but he is your favourite F1 driver, well that is my impression anyway. :)

And I never tried to hide this. :)

ioan

8th December 2009, 20:16

I'm glad to didn't mention the signature joke I made, and I'm glad you didn't take offence.. It wasn't intended.. :)

Let's just say that I learned to stay well above a certain level. :p :

8th December 2009, 22:04

In 2008 Renault recovered and it seemed to have recovered significantly with the Alonso inspired win at the brilliant driver's circuit, Suzuka.

Erm, the 2008 Japanese GP was held at Fuji.

Big Ben

9th December 2009, 14:23

Don't know you but I have no idols, I don't need anyone too keep drooling over.

However if you, one day, decide to post something sensible I'll probably answer it, until then I doubt that you are even 1% a Ferrari fan.

So does this mean you keep drool all by yourself?:P

I am a 50% Ferrari fan now so I guess I'm allowed to post 50% of what I want... that's a shame, I left out the more interesting half.

Dzeidzei

11th December 2009, 08:40

555-04Q2

11th December 2009, 09:54

Just out of curiosity: How would the Tifosi feel about Michael driving for Mercedes?

I think that would be excellent for formula1. That would really make 2010 something to look forward to. But could guys like ioan start hating Schumi now that he drove for the enemy?

Hell, that could drive someone mad. If he wasnt already :)

I wouldnt mind. He raced for them in sportscar races etc before F1 so why not again? Just to see him in action again would be enough for me, even if he drove a donkey cart :p :

ioan

11th December 2009, 16:37

Just out of curiosity: How would the Tifosi feel about Michael driving for Mercedes?

I think that would be excellent for formula1. That would really make 2010 something to look forward to. But could guys like ioan start hating Schumi now that he drove for the enemy?

Hell, that could drive someone mad. If he wasnt already :)

As long as it's not McLaren it's fine for me. :p :D

11th December 2009, 17:18

As long as it's not McLaren it's fine for me. :p :D

Agree.

Personally, I'd rather not see Michael return because I think, at 41, his best days are yesterdays days and having retired once with his legend undisputed, anything after that will be an anti-climax.

I don't buy the Mercedes story either, but stranger things have been known.

You never know.....he could be planning his own version of the "Damned United"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Damned_Utd

jens

11th December 2009, 21:12

555-04Q2

14th December 2009, 08:09

I'm continually puzzled about what is the point of this Ferrari fans thread. It keeps doing rounds around some retired drivers, which shouldn't matter any more at all. The more critical question should be whether 2009 was a one-off for Ferrari or are they in a more serious slump in terms of the ability of challenging for the title. :p :

Yes, MS is retired as an F1 driver, but he still works for.....wait for it.....Ferrari. The thread is about Ferrari and all things Ferrari :) Where does the problem lie then with discussing MS :confused:

555-04Q2

14th December 2009, 08:10

Agree.

Personally, I'd rather not see Michael return because I think, at 41, his best days are yesterdays days and having retired once with his legend undisputed, anything after that will be an anti-climax.

I don't buy the Mercedes story either, but stranger things have been known.

You never know.....he could be planning his own version of the "Damned United"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Damned_Utd

Why cant he return to racing and have some fun? Do golf players just give up golf because they get too old? No, they join the seniors tour or play for the fun of it. MS has nothing further to prove. If he wants to have some fun racing again, I say go boy go!

Saint Devote

14th December 2009, 10:41

I'm continually puzzled about what is the point of this Ferrari fans thread. It keeps doing rounds around some retired drivers, which shouldn't matter any more at all. The more critical question should be whether 2009 was a one-off for Ferrari or are they in a more serious slump in terms of the ability of challenging for the title. :p :

I'd say Ferrari are in a longer period of doldrums but the factor of Alonso, the best driver in f1 today, cannot be underestimated.

And just as Mclaren have their technology team and organization, RBR Adrian Newey, Ferrari now have the core that always works for them: the best driver on the grid.

It will be unusual if they are not competitive in 2010.

JRodrigues

14th December 2009, 12:22

It will be unusual if they are not competitive in 2010.

Especially since they totally abandoned development during 2009 season, making it possible to work on the 2010 car for Mr. SantAlonso.

jens

14th December 2009, 17:47

Yes, MS is retired as an F1 driver, but he still works for.....wait for it.....Ferrari. The thread is about Ferrari and all things Ferrari :) Where does the problem lie then with discussing MS :confused:

Depends on what to discuss about MS. :) It certainly doesn't look like his role as an advisor has been much discussed here!

As for 2010 performance, I have to say like I think I have mentioned somewhere else already - the outcome of the reshuffling in the team is still unclear and may have a negative effect. Ferrari may have the mentioned Alonso, but the basis of success of an F1 team is much more complicated than that and even Ross Brawn hasn't achieved what he has singlehandedly. Prost, who was rated as the smartest driver of all, could only watch his team struggling in 1991.

14th December 2009, 18:22

Depends on what to discuss about MS. :) It certainly doesn't look like his role as an advisor has been much discussed here!

As for 2010 performance, I have to say like I think I have mentioned somewhere else already - the outcome of the reshuffling in the team is still unclear and may have a negative effect. Ferrari may have the mentioned Alonso, but the basis of success of an F1 team is much more complicated than that and even Ross Brawn hasn't achieved what he has singlehandedly. Prost, who was rated as the smartest driver of all, could only watch his team struggling in 1991.

Maybe it was Michael's role as an advisor that delayed the dip Ferrari had post-Schumi-in-the-cockpit?

Had he not been there, it is doubtful that Massa would have had the support of the team that he appears to have gained, since Felipe has not come across as being a hard-nose in the manner of Michael, Fernando, Lewis, etc.

Had Felipe not become defacto team leader, Ferrari didn't have one in the other car, so the momentum carried over from the Todt-Schumacher-Brawn days could well have been lost even more quickly than it was.

I see the signing of Fernando by Ferrari as the management attempting to introduce a catalyst to refire the direction of the team. I think that Ferrari see in Fernando somebody who can identify who he wants to work with, much in the same way Michael & Jean did.

Lightning might not strike twice, but the Fernando factor was a move that Ferrari had to make.

ioan

14th December 2009, 18:52

Lightning might not strike twice, but the Fernando factor was a move that Ferrari had to make.

Having only one motivated racer was not an option, for sure! ;)

DexDexter

14th December 2009, 20:20

Having only one motivated racer was not an option, for sure! ;)

And a large pay off from a Spanish bank was very nice too. :rolleyes:

ioan

14th December 2009, 21:18

And a large pay off from a Spanish bank was very nice too. :rolleyes:

Let's just say that Ferrari could have easily paid off Kimi without the help of Santander, given that they used to operate on 300+ million USD and next year there is a reduced budget agreement.
I'm not buying into Santander having a say in Kimi being sidelined story.

14th December 2009, 21:19

His last 2 season's were an anti climax as he was beaten by Fernando Alonso.

A somewhat simplistic view and somewhat illuminating of your inconsistent knowledge.

The F2005/Bridgestone car/tyre combination was woefully short on the R25/Michelin car/tyre combination throughout 05, and the 248 was, until halfway through the 06 season, not capable of matching/beating the R26 other than at Imola, a race where Michael still could make the difference.

Despite the R26 being a better car for 50% of the races, Michael was still more than capable of winning races he shouldn't....China 06, his last win, being ample proof of that.

Come to think of it, when did your young pup last win from 6th on the grid?

After all, if he hasn't done that, his entire career to date is a bit of an anti-climax.

Winning from the front row isn't hard. Even Jarno Trulli has done it.

ioan

14th December 2009, 22:28

Indeed but since when are issues relating to the car acceptable when defending a Ferrari driver? Kimi had 5 poor races in 2008 and an impressive 2009 season yet he is over paid scum of the earth.

Did I miss MS being beaten by Felipe like Kimi was?! :/

You see we use the same yardstick for both, their team mate, objective enough IMO.

Saint Devote

15th December 2009, 00:32

Especially since they totally abandoned development during 2009 season, making it possible to work on the 2010 car for Mr. SantAlonso.

Yes. That is the risk they took. But it was not the time spent that made Brawn what it was, but the idea and implimentation thereof.

Remember, Red Bull Racing was the team that did their work the latest.

That is why I think that Alonso is the essential ingredient. Its the way that Ferrari function and have done so since they were rescued and their entire thinking restructured by Niki Lauda.

Ferrari do well when they have at their core the best driver - and Alonso is not the best, but the ONLY driver than can do it for them once the car has been produced.

In the Ferrari this year - and WHAT a waste of Alonso ability 2009 was - Ferrari would have won more than one grand prix and beaten Mclaren. And Massa does appear to be the driver that can keep up with the Spanish ace.

F1boat

15th December 2009, 09:25

I have the feeling that Massa will be stronger than ever when he returns.

Garry Walker

15th December 2009, 15:24

In the Ferrari this year - and WHAT a waste of Alonso ability 2009 was - Ferrari would have won more than one grand prix and beaten Mclaren. And Massa does appear to be the driver that can keep up with the Spanish ace.
:rotflmao:

Alonso would not have won one race with the 2009 Ferrari.

F1boat

15th December 2009, 19:40

:rotflmao:

Alonso would not have won one race with the 2009 Ferrari.

IMO he might have won in Hungary, but not in Belgium.

ioan

15th December 2009, 21:48

Yes. That is the risk they took. But it was not the time spent that made Brawn what it was...

Right, it was the time + 3 windtunnels + more than 700 people working around the clock + like 750 million Euro from Honda and a push from the FIA! ;)

You see I fully agree, time enough can't make anything it just goes by without use.

ioan

15th December 2009, 21:50

MS was beaten by Felipe on occasion yes.

Stop cherry picking facts, we are talking about season results not the occasional race.

DexDexter

16th December 2009, 08:15

Stop cherry picking facts, we are talking about season results not the occasional race.

You really can't compare things so directly. When Massa came into Ferrari it was very much Michael's team, when Kimi came there, Massa was well-settled and had one learning year behind him. Things are not as simple as you make them out to be.

ON to other things.....What do you think the prospects are for Ferrari next year? IMO, thinking logically, Alonso is going to beat recovering Massa, since the accident is bound to have some sort of an after-effect no matter what people say. IMO the car will probably be good since the technical team is still almost as strong as in Michael's days. My biggest question mark is the organisation and leadership. Will Montezemolo allow Domenicali to lead the team if there are bumbs on the road? Is he capable of doing that?

Big Ben

16th December 2009, 09:58

Did I miss MS being beaten by Felipe like Kimi was?! :/

You see we use the same yardstick for both, their team mate, objective enough IMO.

...like FM's job was to beat MS...

Saint Devote

16th December 2009, 10:45

Right, it was the time + 3 windtunnels + more than 700 people working around the clock + like 750 million Euro from Honda and a push from the FIA! ;)

You see I fully agree, time enough can't make anything it just goes by without use.

It was the basic concept of the car that won. Adrian Newey had far less time and the team had less resources than Ferrari and Mclaren.

Time will refine it only.

Garry Walker

16th December 2009, 21:42

IMO he might have won in Hungary, but not in Belgium.

Hungary? Why? KR was very impressive that day, but still stood no chance against Hamilton.
Alonso hardly would have been better.

555-04Q2

17th December 2009, 10:14

IMO, thinking logically, Alonso is going to beat recovering Massa, since the accident is bound to have some sort of an after-effect no matter what people say.

No, Alonso is the class of the F1 grid. He will beat Massa because he is a better driver than Massa, accident or no accident. And remember that I am a Massa supporter and still believe Alonso has too much ammo for the Brazilian.

ioan

17th December 2009, 21:42

I am surprised you made this comment when you previous post (see below) is "cherry picking" facts and fiction, to justify in your own mind, why Brawn wiped the floor with the rest of the field.

What a beaut.. :p

Fiction?! Why do you use words that you do not understand? :confused:

DexDexter

18th December 2009, 07:52

No, Alonso is the class of the F1 grid. He will beat Massa because he is a better driver than Massa, accident or no accident. And remember that I am a Massa supporter and still believe Alonso has too much ammo for the Brazilian.

Alonso is indeed the class of the grid after Hamilton (based on facts) but Massa's accident will certainly have an effect on his performance, that was the point I was trying to made.

Fiction?! Why do you use words that you do not understand? :confused:

After a brief calm period, you seem to be at it again :rolleyes: .

ioan

18th December 2009, 17:23

After a brief calm period, you seem to be at it again :rolleyes: .

Must be because some people don't know what they are talking about. And I'm not talking about you.

jas123f1

19th December 2009, 10:09

Btw..
Why "Luca the Ferrari Boss" are speaking so much b*** s*** about Kimi ?
and why Kimi are not doing the same about him?

Maybe Luca is concerned that he didn't right ting kicking him out :)

Mauri A

19th December 2009, 10:53

Btw..
Why "Luca the Ferrari Boss" are speaking so much b*** s*** about Kimi ?
and why Kimi are not doing the same about him?

Maybe Luca is concerned that he didn't right ting kicking him out :)
A comment from Luca:" Kimi wasn´t a team player as Felipe and the other great champions are". Felipe the team player. ha ha!!!!

ioan

19th December 2009, 11:22

Some people never understand! :rolleyes: :\

Garry Walker

19th December 2009, 15:01

No, Alonso is the class of the F1 grid.

So if he is class of the field, why has he been beaten by two of the current F1 drivers in equal cars?

F1boat

19th December 2009, 15:50

So if he is class of the field, why has he been beaten by two of the current F1 drivers in equal cars?

Lewis OK, who is the other?

Garry Walker

19th December 2009, 15:54

Lewis OK, who is the other?

Trulli, 2004.

F1boat

19th December 2009, 15:57

Trulli, 2004.

Hmm, didn't Alonso overtook him in standings prior to the driver's change at the team?

gloomyDAY

19th December 2009, 15:58

Trulli, 2004.How? Fernando came out ahead in points.

Garry Walker

19th December 2009, 16:00

Hmm, didn't Alonso overtook him in standings prior to the driver's change at the team?

No.
When Briatore dumped Trulli, Trulli was still ahead of Alonso.

gloomyDAY

19th December 2009, 16:02

No.
When Briatore dumped Trulli, Trulli was still ahead of Alonso.Yes, I was going to mention that Trulli got thrown out and then landed at Toyota.
Alonsita probably got upset and cried to Flavio.

Roamy

19th December 2009, 16:56

I want to know if ioan and walker are going to jump to the Merc camp with the Chin???

ioan

19th December 2009, 21:55

I want to know if ioan and walker are going to jump to the Merc camp with the Chin???

I'll support MS but I won't give up on supporting Ferrari. :)

Roamy

20th December 2009, 00:59

so the is MS first Ferrari 2nd

F1boat

20th December 2009, 06:28

ioan is easy, fousto, next year I will support MS, Jenson AND Ferrari! Go crazy, I will!

ioan

20th December 2009, 11:03

so the is MS first Ferrari 2nd

Ferrari is 1st.
However you can still try to read between the one line I wrote and come up with some more fiction.

20th December 2009, 11:18

I want to know if ioan and walker are going to jump to the Merc camp with the Chin???

Ferrari One-Two with Michael 3rd would be the ideal result.....but if Michael did win, we'd know Ferrari had been beaten by the greatest driver in the history of the sport, so that wouldn't be as hard to take as losing to a lucky Canadian who was flattered by an FW19, for example.

Bagwan

20th December 2009, 12:40

F1boat

20th December 2009, 15:49

ioan

20th December 2009, 16:12

Just where does Michael stand in the hearts of the dyed in the wool Tifoso ?

Luca's recent comments brand him a traitor to the marque .

Is there a chance that Michael isn't really going to Merc , as everyone thinks ?
Could this be the ultimate burn for the Mercedes camp , where Schumacher makes all the right noises about changing teams , and then , at the last moment , turns out not to be a turn-coat , and pulls the rug from beneath them ?
Is the twin just the same guy , about to remove the mask ?

Seeing all the hype around this , wouldn't this be the coup of the century , if Michael held silly season for ransom like this , just for the sake of screwing up Ferrari's opponents ?

If this is what transpires , no Tifoso need reply to the first question in my post . All's fair in love and F1 .

Michael has/should have a special place in every Ferrari fans heart for what he did for the Ferrari team.

While Luca is a bit of d!ckhead with a big ego and I find his hiring of Italians in the key positions in the team a very bad move, I believe that Michael is not the kind of person who would do to Ross Brawn something like that.

And while we are talking about Ross Brawn, it is also Luca's fault that Ross Brawn is the Mercedes F1 team boss and not the Ferrari F1 team boss right now.

During his sabbatical year Brawn asked for the team boss position but Luca preferred to give it too Domenicali, who is a nice person but not team boss material.

Garry Walker

20th December 2009, 17:16

I want to know if ioan and walker are going to jump to the Merc camp with the Chin???

I dislike the current Ferrari team immensly, with the exception of Massa of course. The behaviour of LDM in ousting Brawn, Todt, Schumacher and Kimi has been idiotic.

If Schumacher comes back, then I will support Mercedes for sure. Even without Schumacher, I would quite like Mercedes.

20th December 2009, 19:13

The jury is still out on that one, but I admire your sanguine attitude.. :p

Until somebody beats his records, then the facts speak for themselves.

20th December 2009, 19:28

Bagwan

20th December 2009, 20:57

Michael has/should have a special place in every Ferrari fans heart for what he did for the Ferrari team.

While Luca is a bit of d!ckhead with a big ego and I find his hiring of Italians in the key positions in the team a very bad move, I believe that Michael is not the kind of person who would do to Ross Brawn something like that.

And while we are talking about Ross Brawn, it is also Luca's fault that Ross Brawn is the Mercedes F1 team boss and not the Ferrari F1 team boss right now.

During his sabbatical year Brawn asked for the team boss position but Luca preferred to give it too Domenicali, who is a nice person but not team boss material.

You're right that Luca is a dick .
He spat on a friend of mine .

But , isn't he right in saying that Michael , who seemed red to the core , is now Michael the traitor ?

ioan

20th December 2009, 21:54

The jury is still out on that one, but I admire your sanguine attitude.. :p

What jury?!
Oh I see, you've been chewing those mushrooms again. Please continue, don't bother with us bad dreams.

ioan

20th December 2009, 21:55

Quantity has never been something I have used to judge someones greatness.

All those with little to show say this! :rotflmao:

ioan

20th December 2009, 21:58

You're right that Luca is a dick .
He spat on a friend of mine .

But , isn't he right in saying that Michael , who seemed red to the core , is now Michael the traitor ?

No he isn't right. Luca is the one who badly treated the ones who made Ferrari into the powerhouse we all witnessed, so he has no right to call others traitors.

garyshell

20th December 2009, 22:41

7 World titles & 92 Grand Prix wins....those are facts.

Nobody has a greater number, a fact, therefore nobody has achieved a greater number, a fact.

Which, according to the dictionary definition, means Michael is the greatest.

Does integrity count in the definition of greatness are are we limited to just stats? If it is stats alone I am in full agreement. If not, then...

Gary

F1boat

21st December 2009, 08:11

No he isn't right. Luca is the one who badly treated the ones who made Ferrari into the powerhouse we all witnessed, so he has no right to call others traitors.

Yes. Pierro also said that Michael would be like a betrayer as he said that Ferrari was family to him before. But was Ferrari a good family, Pierro?

21st December 2009, 10:40

Does integrity count in the definition of greatness are are we limited to just stats? If it is stats alone I am in full agreement. If not, then...

Gary

Gary, my esteemed friend, what does integrity win?

ArrowsFA1

21st December 2009, 11:39

Nobody has a greater number, a fact, therefore nobody has achieved a greater number, a fact.

Which, according to the dictionary definition, means Michael is the greatest.
Rubens Barrichello has raced in more F1 races than anyone. That makes him the greatest :p

21st December 2009, 12:33

Rubens Barrichello has raced in more F1 races than anyone. That makes him the greatest :p

Ah, but Rubens forgot that he needed to win more of them.

All his greater number of races makes him is the man who lost most GP's.

He took that record from...now, who was it?...oh, yes, your mate.

ArrowsFA1

21st December 2009, 13:36

All his greater number of races makes him is the man who lost most GP's.
So he's the greatest in two categories, just like Michael :D

BeansBeansBeans

21st December 2009, 13:52

7 World titles & 92 Grand Prix wins....those are facts.

Nobody has a greater number, a fact, therefore nobody has achieved a greater number, a fact.

Which, according to the dictionary definition, means Michael is the greatest.

Is Ryan Giggs the greatest player in the history of English football? I'd say that was up-for-debate, despite him having won more than anyone else.

21st December 2009, 17:10

So he's the greatest in two categories, just like Michael :D

Two categories that are meaningless, much like your post.

Is Ryan Giggs the greatest player in the history of English football? I'd say that was up-for-debate, despite him having won more than anyone else.

He has won more than anybody else, and the object of the game is to win.

Ryan Giggs is indeed fast becoming the most decorated player in the history of football so yes he is the greatest player in the history of the game... According to Tamb :p

When the object of the sport is anything other than winning, you may have a point.

Until then, you don't.

That is a fact.

garyshell

21st December 2009, 17:33

Gary, my esteemed friend, what does integrity win?

Not a stinking thing I am afraid. But I was really trying to suss out this "dictionary definition" of greatness. Curious as to what dictionary and/or context. Like I said if it was limited only to on track performance, then without a doubt MS fills the bill. But if the definition extends beyond that scope, well we gotta talk my friend.

Gary

P.S. Happy holidays tamburello!

ioan

21st December 2009, 18:23

Does integrity count in the definition of greatness are are we limited to just stats? If it is stats alone I am in full agreement. If not, then...

Gary

Those without sins should cast the first stone!, or something along those lines (I only heard it in the Christmas movies, so please forgive me if it's wrong).

Meaning that there weren't many saints between those F1 WDCs.

ioan

21st December 2009, 18:28

Yes. Pierro also said that Michael would be like a betrayer as he said that Ferrari was family to him before. But was Ferrari a good family, Pierro?

Depends about which Ferrari we talk.
The Ferrari of Todt, Brawn, Byrne were a great family to MS and he stayed loyal to them.

I believe that the fans, the mechanics and engineers love MS no matter what LdM of Pietro might say.

I for one I'm attracted by Ferrari as a manufacturer of automotive art and don't give a damn about who's at the helm as long as the spirit lives on.

ioan

21st December 2009, 18:30

I'm glad you have confirmed its open to interpretation... ;)

Everything is open to interpretation, especially around here. That's why I go by the numbers, no interpretation, no subjectivity, cold numbers.

21st December 2009, 18:48

Everything is open to interpretation, especially around here. That's why I go by the numbers, no interpretation, no subjectivity, cold numbers.

Amen.

Rollo

21st December 2009, 19:35

Everything is open to interpretation, especially around here. That's why I go by the numbers, no interpretation, no subjectivity, cold numbers.

Fangio won 24 times from 51 starts which is a winning percentage of 47.06% and therefore better than Schumacher and might have been better still if it weren't for the coldest numbers in history.

UltimateDanGTR

21st December 2009, 20:18

Thats great but it is OK for me to have my opinion isn't it? That is why we're here or have I missed something? I'm not trying to be funny but people like to lay it on the line when they have a view, but shoot down and take the p!ss out of others when they express theirs.

:up: well said i agree with this statement.

however, to much extent I agree with what Ioan says about going by numbers. However, this doesnt always tell the FULL story and sometimes you have to look further than figures to see a drivers brilliance or what have you.

F1boat

21st December 2009, 21:11

IMO the top 4 drivers - Michael, Alain, Juan and Ayrton, are so good and great that it is impossible to say who is the best, but I have witnessed the majesty of Michael, so I say Michael. However, I am aware that this is only an opinion...

donKey jote

21st December 2009, 21:25

Michael who?
:arrows:
ok ok I'm gone :p :
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

p.s. I just realised: now Michael's back it's time to change the boo hoo sig I put up for ioan (:wave :) so many years ago :laugh:

Bagwan

21st December 2009, 22:00

No he isn't right. Luca is the one who badly treated the ones who made Ferrari into the powerhouse we all witnessed, so he has no right to call others traitors.

This is complicated , this being a Tifoso .

Do I have this right ?
Ferrari winning is best , even though Luca wins and Michael loses .
Ferrari losing to Michael , even though driving for Mercedes , is good , too , because Michael brought so much glory to Ferrari , and he is racing against Luca , who has done so much damage to Ferrari .

Regardless of what Luca says , is Michael not now the enemy , worthy somewhat of some derision , for taking the secrets of the winning Scuderia to a rival ?

After all , should we expect him to feel compassion for the red team in the race , or should we expect the same clinical lack thereof in his typical quest for the win ?

In no way am I trying to be argumentative .
In fact , I am truly interested in how you Tifosi read all this .
It's going to be wierd for you all .

ioan

21st December 2009, 22:53

This is complicated , this being a Tifoso .

Do I have this right ?
Ferrari winning is best , even though Luca wins and Michael loses .
Ferrari losing to Michael , even though driving for Mercedes , is good , too , because Michael brought so much glory to Ferrari , and he is racing against Luca , who has done so much damage to Ferrari .

Regardless of what Luca says , is Michael not now the enemy , worthy somewhat of some derision , for taking the secrets of the winning Scuderia to a rival ?

After all , should we expect him to feel compassion for the red team in the race , or should we expect the same clinical lack thereof in his typical quest for the win ?

In no way am I trying to be argumentative .
In fact , I am truly interested in how you Tifosi read all this .
It's going to be wierd for you all .

Baggy, I'm not living in a world with enemies. And I can learn to like people whom prove to be worth it.

I didn't like MS before 1996, but his dedication won me over.
I didn't like Alonso but his season with McLaren changed a lot as he proved that he can be mature enough to do his job in a hostile environement.
I didn't like Hamilton until half way through 2009, but he proved that he is a very good driver and I respect him for that.

And the list is long.

I like Ferrari even though I despise LdM, simply because LdM is not Ferrari, not the Ferrari I learned to appreciate.

Living in a world of black and white is tiresome and I'm not interested in it. :)

Rollo

22nd December 2009, 03:07

Everything is open to interpretation, especially around here. That's why I go by the numbers, no interpretation, no subjectivity, cold numbers.

Living in a world of black and white is tiresome and I'm not interested in it. :)

Er, which is it? :confused:

DexDexter

22nd December 2009, 08:20

Everything is open to interpretation, especially around here. That's why I go by the numbers, no interpretation, no subjectivity, cold numbers.

No offence but you go by the numbers when it suits you. When we were arguing about Kimi/Massa a while back you just stated that Massa beat Kimi without looking into the matter, and when it was proven that they scored about the same number of points per finished race in their three years together at Ferrari, you just moved on and ignored the whole thing. But anyway we all do that but at least some of us don't pretend to be objective.

BeansBeansBeans

22nd December 2009, 09:48

Two categories that are meaningless, much like your post.

He has won more than anybody else, and the object of the game is to win.

When the object of the sport is anything other than winning, you may have a point.

Until then, you don't.

That is a fact.

I'd say that if the numbers place Ryan Giggs and Phil Neal as the two greatest players in English football history, it proves that the numbers can't be totally relied upon.

ArrowsFA1

22nd December 2009, 10:15

Two categories that are meaningless, much like your post.
I wouldn't consider longevity to be meaningless. Rubens would not be in F1 now if his contribution to the teams he has raced for was not valued. Equally I wouldn't argue for a second that Rubens was the greatest F1 driver that has ever lived.

Greatness is not something that can be defined entirely by facts. The argument in favour of a driver being considered one of the "greats" can certainly be supported by numbers and MS certainly has those in his favour, but given that "greatness" is largely a matter of opinion then the numbers are just one of many factors.

There are sportsmen & women who are generally recognised to be the greatest in their field, but even among those greats there is room for debate and discussion.

22nd December 2009, 11:06

I'd say that if the numbers place Ryan Giggs and Phil Neal as the two greatest players in English football history, it proves that the numbers can't be totally relied upon.

Nobody has achieved more, and that is the only definition of greatness worth considering.

When being a jolly-decent-fellow-what-old-chap has any relevance other than in the minds of Nigel Roebucks love-childs, then any other reference of greatness will have significance.

Until it does, and anytime you wish to visit the F1 Paddock you will find immediately that any such a thought is utter bilge and codswallop, then any other feeble interpretation is born solely from envy and petty-minded isolationist idiocy perpetuated by the great unweashed brain-deads who claim to follow F1 but evidently do not understand even the most basic principle of the sport, which, for those hard-of-understanding, is winning is everything.

The notion that it is the taking part that counts is ridiculous and maintained by losers.

I am evil Homer

22nd December 2009, 11:09

Baggy, I'm not living in a world with enemies. And I can learn to like people whom prove to be worth it.

I didn't like MS before 1996, but his dedication won me over.
I didn't like Alonso but his season with McLaren changed a lot as he proved that he can be mature enough to do his job in a hostile environement.
I didn't like Hamilton until half way through 2009, but he proved that he is a very good driver and I respect him for that.

And the list is long.

I like Ferrari even though I despise LdM, simply because LdM is not Ferrari, not the Ferrari I learned to appreciate.

Living in a world of black and white is tiresome and I'm not interested in it. :)

A fine post Ioan and one I agree with....while I always thought both Alonso and Hamilton were very talented I couldn't 'like' either of them....for me that chnaged also in the last few years.

When you see two guys driving the wheels off a poor car and getting results they really have no right to you cannot help but applaud that. I canno wait for 2010 season.

Luca is a funny one...sometimes appears humble and almost in awe of Ferrari and what it means to people but then turning around and saying something that makes me wonder of he even knows F1.

BeansBeansBeans

22nd December 2009, 11:11

Nobody has achieved more, and that is the only definition of greatness worth considering.

When being a jolly-decent-fellow-what-old-chap has any relevance other than in the minds of Nigel Roebucks love-childs, then any other reference of greatness will have significance.

Until it does, and anytime you wish to visit the F1 Paddock you will find immediately that any such a thought is utter bilge and codswallop, then any other feeble interpretation is born solely from envy and petty-minded isolationist idiocy perpetuated by the great unweashed brain-deads who claim to follow F1 but evidently do not understand even the most basic principle of the sport, which, for those hard-of-understanding, is winning is everything.

The notion that it is the taking part that counts is ridiculous and maintained by losers.

I'd put Senna & Prost ahead of Schumacher. I wouldn't describe either of them as losers, nor particularly nice jolly old fellas.

You need to learn that your opinion is just that, an opinion. You can support it with stats, but stats aren't everything.

22nd December 2009, 11:35

You need to learn that your opinion is just that, an opinion. You can support it with stats, but stats aren't everything.

And you need to learn that winning is everything.

BeansBeansBeans

22nd December 2009, 11:50

PS How does Sterling make it onto a greats list when he never won a WDC? I consider him a great but this would be disputed under the stats rule.

Almost everyone in the sport considers Stirling Moss a great, many even believe he is the greatest ever.

I doubt Tamburello would agree.

Of course, if it is all about statistics, one wonders why we bother to watch, when surely a quick perusal of the results will tell us all we need to know.

Bagwan

22nd December 2009, 12:46

Baggy, I'm not living in a world with enemies. And I can learn to like people whom prove to be worth it.

I didn't like MS before 1996, but his dedication won me over.
I didn't like Alonso but his season with McLaren changed a lot as he proved that he can be mature enough to do his job in a hostile environement.
I didn't like Hamilton until half way through 2009, but he proved that he is a very good driver and I respect him for that.

And the list is long.

I like Ferrari even though I despise LdM, simply because LdM is not Ferrari, not the Ferrari I learned to appreciate.

Living in a world of black and white is tiresome and I'm not interested in it. :)

OK , so , you despise Luca , and love Ferrari .

At this point , would it be fair to say that whether Ferrari wins or not , is almost of no consequence , given that a Ferrari loss is a Luca loss , and a Ferrari win is a Ferrari win ?
In a sense , is this a win-win scenario ?

I do appreciate that a driver can redeem themselves in your eyes , but , isn't saying "I didn't like ... ,but" rather "black and white?

What about Kimi ? He brought glory to the marque one year .
But , he was seen as slack by Luca , and by most Tifosi , and continues to drag the coffers , even though gone .
Could this simply be the Luca effect again , with Kimi as unwilling to respect his employer as the Tifosi ?

Firstgear

22nd December 2009, 13:47

Of course, if it is all about statistics, one wonders why we bother to watch, when surely a quick perusal of the results will tell us all we need to know.
When the ever so passionate and emotional tifosi have nothing but 'cold numbers' to support their hero, it speaks volumes about that hero's faults.

22nd December 2009, 14:15

Almost everyone in the sport considers Stirling Moss a great, many even believe he is the greatest ever.

I doubt Tamburello would agree.

You got one thing right.

Moss was never a champion. Any claim that he was the greatest fails on that.

Of course, if it is all about statistics, one wonders why we bother to watch, when surely a quick perusal of the results will tell us all we need to know.

It is not statistics, it is results. Cold, hard results. Unambigious,

Those in denial claim they are statistics.

Those who understand the purpose of the competition appreciate that they are results.

Robinho

22nd December 2009, 14:33

those with the results can be considered as having the greatest results, doesn't mean that everyone will share the OPINION (a word missing from a few preceding posts) that they are the greatest.

its hard to argue that MS is not the greatest, especially if you only look at results (which is it Tamb and Ioan, facts and results or opinion, both of you claim opinion in your signatures), but there is more to the competition than the final results. its the manner in which they are acheived that goes so far to form peoples opinion, which, i believe, people are perfectly entitled to, according to signature law round here.

i'd agree he's probably the greatest of his era, and that ferrari were probably the greatest team in that era, based on results, but i can't compare to previous generations without introducing opinion and favouritism, whislt if i do the same for MS era he'd also be in a fight with a few others.

BeansBeansBeans

22nd December 2009, 14:48

Those who understand the purpose of the competition appreciate that they are results.

The purpose of the competition is to win, agreed, but the driver who wins the most is not necessarily the best driver, for he is just one member of the team, (albeit an important one).

Only a lunatic would describe, say, Gary Neville, as a better footballer than Steven Gerrard, but Gary's the one with the medals because he has been part of a successful team.

Ultimately, I'm prepared to accept your opinion that Michael Schumacher is the greatest but I'm not prepared to accept that it is fact.

22nd December 2009, 16:16

which is it Tamb and Ioan, facts and results or opinion, both of you claim opinion in your signatures

Fact - Michael Schumacher has won more titles and Grand Prix's than anybody else. Since nobody else has a greater success, that makes him the greatest.

Opinion - Ron Dennis is a W____r.

Never having seen him masturbate, I accept that this is merely an opinion.

BeansBeansBeans

22nd December 2009, 16:17

Grand Prix's

Grands Prix, surely.

22nd December 2009, 16:23

I don't mean to be funny but the comparisons when trying to argue who is greater are just too complex.

Only to those in denial of the facts.

Please tell me who has the greatest number of World Drivers Championship Titles and who has won the greatest number of Grand Prix wins?

There is the answer.

Anything else is pathetic.

22nd December 2009, 16:24

Grands Prix, surely.

Apologies. French is only my third language.

BeansBeansBeans

22nd December 2009, 16:40

Only to those in denial of the facts.

Please tell me who has the greatest number of World Drivers Championship Titles and who has won the greatest number of Grand Prix wins?

There is the answer.

Anything else is pathetic.

It's always the same old story. You offer an opinion, get frustrated that people have the temerity to disagree and ultimately end up throwing insults around.

22nd December 2009, 16:52

So do you have a complex about someone else having a different opinion or something? Notice how everyone else is maintaining a civil level in this debate, yet you are calling people pathetic. We don't share your opinion simple as that, you obviously care what myself and others think as you wouldn't be getting so personal with your responses.

You need to differentiate between calling an deliberately incorrect response pathetic and calling another poster pathetic.

I have done the first, not the latter.

Once again, nice attempt to troll, but reallly you need to practice your technique.

22nd December 2009, 16:52

It's always the same old story. You offer an opinion, get frustrated that people have the temerity to disagree and ultimately end up throwing insults around.

I offered facts. You offered opinion.

Big difference.

Robinho

22nd December 2009, 18:10

Fact - Michael Schumacher has won more titles and Grand Prix's than anybody else. Since nobody else has a greater success, that makes him the greatest.

Opinion - Ron Dennis is a W____r.

Never having seen him masturbate, I accept that this is merely an opinion.

you are of course entirely correct, when the criteria for judging the greatest is solely the results acheived.

if the "greatest" is a subjective, opinion based judgement then you'll have to accept some opinions don't tally with yours.

Fact, MS won more titles and GP's than anyone. That makes him the driver who won the most GP's and titles, therefore he has the best results. if your judging that as your sole requirement for greatness, then yes, he is the greatest. i'd call it the most successful, as i consider "greatest" to be a subjective title. Chuck in fairness, Sportmanship, personality and other things that others might include in their judgement of there opinion and thir assessment could well be different.

22nd December 2009, 18:14

you are of course entirely correct, when the criteria for judging the greatest is solely the results acheived.

if the "greatest" is a subjective, opinion based judgement then you'll have to accept some opinions don't tally with yours.

I don't accept that the "greatest" tag is subjective when dealing with those cold, hard, facts.

Robinho

22nd December 2009, 18:18

I don't accept that the "greatest" tag is subjective when dealing with those cold, hard, facts.

fair enough, thats your opinion. i see the cold, hard, facts as purely a measure of the most success. you could even say the greatest success, but i will stop short of "greatest", as i do consider it a subjective assessment.

garyshell

22nd December 2009, 18:37

...when it was proven that they scored about the same number of points per finished race in their three years together at Ferrari, you just moved on and ignored the whole thing.

And where is the surprise in that?

Gary

garyshell

22nd December 2009, 19:00

I don't accept that the "greatest" tag is subjective when dealing with those cold, hard, facts.

I get that, but it is based on your specific definition of the "greatest". A case could also be made for the definition to be based on win/loss ratio. For others, me included, it is a much broader definition that does include a lot of subjective parameters as well. Looking at a pure dictionary definition of "greatest" yields a WIDE interpretation of what does or does not make one the greatest. Given your specific targeted definition, I don't think any one would (or could) disagree. I think, though, that not everyone (me included) agrees with that targeted definition. Even in the context of an F1 team I don't think results are the ONLY factor. They do make up a HUGE coefficient of the equation if one were to try to develop an arithmetic formula. But given two drivers of equal record, I'd venture to guess other things like how they treat the equipment, how they treat the rest of the hired help, might also weigh on which of the two the owner felt was greater. For the fan that coefficient would probably be somewhat smaller and other coefficients would come into play that the owner might have little, if any, interest in.

Coming from the background you do, it makes sense that you define the greatest in the way you do. Coming from the otherside of the fence, mine is considerably different. But I admit, mine is a purely subjective definition. For me personal character weighs in quite a lot. And therefore my opinion of MS is much less than yours. While I do consider him the winningest driver in F1, by no means do I consider him the "greatest". I am sorry but I just can't put that moniker on a driver who intentionally tries to take out a competitor by punting them off the road.

greatest - 3 dictionary results
great /greɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [greyt] Show IPA adjective, -er, -est, adverb, noun, plural greats, (especially collectively) great, interjection

–adjective 1. unusually or comparatively large in size or dimensions: A great fire destroyed nearly half the city.
2. large in number; numerous: Great hordes of tourists descend on Europe each summer.
3. unusual or considerable in degree, power, intensity, etc.: great pain.
4. wonderful; first-rate; very good: We had a great time. That's great!
5. being such in an extreme or notable degree: great friends; a great talker.
6. notable; remarkable; exceptionally outstanding: a great occasion.
7. important; highly significant or consequential: the great issues in American history.
8. distinguished; famous: a great inventor.
9. of noble or lofty character: great thoughts.
10. chief or principal: the great hall; his greatest novel.
11. of high rank, official position, or social standing: a great noble.
12. much in use or favor: “Humor” was a great word with the old physiologists.
13. of extraordinary powers; having unusual merit; very admirable: a great statesman.
14. of considerable duration or length: We waited a great while for the train.
15. Informal. a. enthusiastic about some specified activity (usually fol. by at, for, or on): He's great on reading poetry aloud.
b. skillful; expert (usually fol. by at or on): He's great at golf.

16. being of one generation more remote from the family relative specified (used in combination): a great-grandson.

Gary

Rollo

22nd December 2009, 19:33

Fangio won 5 World Championships and probably would have won more if there wasn't a war in the way. He had a better winning rate.

Jim Clark also had a higher winning rate and probably would have won more if it wasn't for the fact that he was dead.

I don't accept that the "greatest" tag is subjective when dealing with those cold, hard, facts.

No you do not, no matter how cold and hard they might be.

ioan

22nd December 2009, 21:37

No offence but you go by the numbers when it suits you. When we were arguing about Kimi/Massa a while back you just stated that Massa beat Kimi without looking into the matter, and when it was proven that they scored about the same number of points per finished race in their three years together at Ferrari...

What exactly means about the same number of points/finished race?
I believe that Felipe had the better numbers so what was there to argue anymore?! You should be happy that I didn't stress it anymore, instead you keep arguing a lost point. :confused:

ioan

22nd December 2009, 21:40

Looks like the Ferrari and MS haters took over this thread, again.
I really wish you guys learned to read one day, preferably sooner than later.

wedge

23rd December 2009, 00:15

Fangio won 5 World Championships and probably would have won more if there wasn't a war in the way. He had a better winning rate.

Team orders. Instead of scoring a DNF he'd jump into his team mate's car.

airshifter

23rd December 2009, 05:26

Looks like the Ferrari and MS haters took over this thread, again.
I really wish you guys learned to read one day, preferably sooner than later.

It's a shame that you can't start a thread with the intention of supporting a team and not have it turn into a bash fest. Personally I think it simply proves that many can't handle the sucess Ferrari and some of their key drivers have had in recent years.

garyshell

23rd December 2009, 05:51

What exactly means about the same number of points/finished race?

I really wish you guys learned to read one day, preferably sooner than later.

And we really wish YOU learned to write one day, preferably sooner than later.

Gary

Shalafi

23rd December 2009, 06:40

What exactly means about the same number of points/finished race?
I believe that Felipe had the better numbers so what was there to argue anymore?! You should be happy that I didn't stress it anymore, instead you keep arguing a lost point. :confused:

Kimi: WDC 1
Massa: WDC 0

There is a cold, hard fact for you. Everything else is a meaningless...

Mia 01

23rd December 2009, 09:13

I pity Ferrari now when MS has signed the deal with Mercedes. They are lost now

BeansBeansBeans

23rd December 2009, 10:11

Ah well, each to their own. Tamburello likes it cold and hard and that's his prerogative.

Robinho

23rd December 2009, 11:56

Looks like the Ferrari and MS haters took over this thread, again.
I really wish you guys learned to read one day, preferably sooner than later.

and here comes the same old Ioan, some one disagrees with him so they are a "Hater", yet he claims others are the ones trolling or flaming?

when someone offers opinions, you argue they are pathetic and counter with facts. when the facts don't fit, your happy to post your opinion, in complete contradiction with your earlier post along the lines that you only go by facts and results, the cold, hard type. all along posting a signature that everything is your opinion and you'll try to back it up. Despite all this you have the temerity to trash others posts because "you hate hypocrisy". all seemingly without a hint of irony.

i put it to you that it is you who is the "Hater", seeing as you appear to be completley intolerant of anyone elses point of view.

i agree this thread has become slightly derailed, but MS is part of Ferraris great history, and now his comeback is confirmed, part of the current story. i'm fantastically excited to see him back, i think parts of his last season was some of his best, i am of the opinion he mellowed a little towards the end of his pervious stint and some of his drives were exceptional, Brazil especially. i'm intrigued to see if he still has it, and even more so to see how the new Merc/Brawn performs, given the platform of this years car, and the chance to correct the compromises made on the car at the start of last season. IMO if they are anywhere near the front MS will fight for race wins and potentially a title - that would be a great story regardless of what i felt for him earlier in his career.

i also think it closes the book nicely on his career finishing up with Mercedes after his earlier associtaion with them despite never having previously competed with them in F1, its like its unfinished business, almost repyaing a favour.

Mia 01

23rd December 2009, 18:02

With Luca, Domi, FA and FM, an all latino lineup Ferrai are lost.

gloomyDAY

23rd December 2009, 18:07

With Luca, Domi, FA and FM, an all latino lineup Ferrai are lost. :rolleyes: Quiet you fool!

If anything they're going to be riding high. Ferrari took more time to develop the car, Alonso is fast, and Massa knows how to play second fiddle.

DexDexter

23rd December 2009, 18:22

:rolleyes: Quiet you fool!

If anything they're going to be riding high. Ferrari took more time to develop the car, Alonso is fast, and Massa knows how to play second fiddle.

BMW took time to develop the car for this year, and it didn't exactly work, did it? It's all up in the air for the moment and anyone's guess is as good as yours.

gloomyDAY

23rd December 2009, 19:55

BMW took time to develop the car for this year, and it didn't exactly work, did it? It's all up in the air for the moment and anyone's guess is as good as yours.Don't you think it's a little silly to suggest that Ferrari is going to fail because of Latinos?

My guess is as good as yours, but there's no way to justify Mia's statement.

DexDexter

23rd December 2009, 20:05

Don't you think it's a little silly to suggest that Ferrari is going to fail because of Latinos?

My guess is as good as yours, but there's no way to justify Mia's statement.

OK, that's true and by the way Italians are Italians just as Finns are Finns. The definition Latino is rarely used in Europe, more in the new world although Luca Di whatever seems to have picked it up.

ioan

23rd December 2009, 20:15

OK, that's true and by the way Italians are Italians just as Finns are Finns. The definition Latino is rarely used in Europe, more in the new world although Luca Di whatever seems to have picked it up.

Forget Luca, he's just a political Bozo.

jens

24th December 2009, 12:51

24th December 2009, 13:51

I have noticed that di Montezemolo has been criticized here for his decisions over the past few years. Well, I speculate that the reason behind those decisions may have been his personal wish to be more in the limelight. In the days of MS/Todt/Brawn he was somehow left in the shadow, but for instance in 2009 he has got quite a lot of attention - for example by being the chairman of FOTA, while battling against FIA.

Yes, it does seem as though Luca forgot what made the Scuderia so successful in its previous management guise.

Even more surprising when considering that he himself was part of a previous tight-knitted management team in the mid-70's.

f1indiablog

2nd January 2010, 06:17

Ferrari Chief Luca di Montezemolo has made strong remarks regarding Ferrari's future involvement in Formula 1. He insists that Ferrari are committed to Formula 1 as long as there is improvement in the standards of the sport. Ferrari are currently committed to Formula 1 up to the end of 2012 as per the terms of the Concorde Agreement signed earlier this year after the team came closest to quitting Formula 1 than it had ever been after issues regarding cost cutting measures.

But, does No ferrari means no F1???

F1boat

2nd January 2010, 07:20

2nd January 2010, 11:40

I dunno what does this mean - if the rules do not suit us, we quit? :(

It's not the first time Ferrari have done this, and it won't be the last.

SGWilko

2nd January 2010, 20:43

I dunno what does this mean - if the rules do not suit us, we quit? :(

Toys, pram and throwing out. They've probably built a soapbox cart and will show it in a few years from now saying 'look how serious we were about leaving'

Ferrari: A team that gets special treatment from the rulemakers and sport owners, but is quite happy to stick two fingers up at the first opportunity.

Still, with Fred on board, they are a team with a prima donna at he helm and a prima donna at the wheel.......

2nd January 2010, 21:04

Ferrari: A team that gets special treatment from the rulemakers and sport owners, but is quite happy to stick two fingers up at the first opportunity.

Good, and only a fool wouldn't do the same given the opportunity.

Racing is about winning, not about being nice.

SGWilko

2nd January 2010, 22:19

Racing is about winning, not about being nice.

Only one team can win at a time. And if you can only win with assistance.....

Valve Bounce

3rd January 2010, 02:40

Still, with Fred on board, they are a team with a prima donna at he helm and a prima donna at the wheel.......

..............and a prima donna on the podium, yes? :up:

As Max said: "this is not the classical music" but Max didn't see the possibility of the Opera emerging in F1. :p :

Saint Devote

3rd January 2010, 03:47

Maranello is about to discover what it means to have someone named Michael Schumcher privy to their most secret plans, strategies and tactics become the "enemy".

Is it beyond the scope of a driver that has always been prepared to literally drive other off the track in order to gain, to have in his mind revenge?

I am sure with Todt gone and di Montezemolo the king pin, Schumacher has not forgotten who it was that demolished his Ferrari kingdom and inserted Raikkonen.

And now? The hated Alonso, responsible for the 2005 and 2006 beatings that triggered the di Montezemolo purge, is also the number 1 driver - anticipated to be the saviour of a demoralized Scuderia.

I think Schumacher will attack the Ferraris with the determination and focus that has made him legend.

Beware Italia, the Hun Horde is about to descend once again and no mercy will be shown.

CNR

3rd January 2010, 07:25

Q: Ferrari fans how would it feel to have alonso 2007 2008 cheat as World Champion ?

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/motorsports/view/115213/Alonso-has-his-eye-on-dirty-Schumacher/

But double champ Alonso has issued a reminder that Schuey is the most cited offender ever in F1 – after a series of clashes, crashes and underhand tactics on his way to seven world titles. Spaniard Alonso fingers Schuey for his deliberate collision with former champion Jacques Villeneuve.

F1boat

3rd January 2010, 09:34

As a winner of the Singapore GP and a racer in the 2007 McLaren, it would be wise if Alonso does not speak about cheating.

ArrowsFA1

3rd January 2010, 11:43

I see there's no quote from Alonso in the article. The Daily Star wouldn't be digging up old comments to use...would they? The Daily Star :eek: :laugh:

3rd January 2010, 12:22

3rd January 2010, 12:29

I think Schumacher will attack the Ferraris with the determination and focus that has made him legend.

Beware Italia, the Hun Horde is about to descend once again and no mercy will be shown.

Apart from the ridiculous dramatic tinge to your verse (which begs the question "how old are you?"), why would anybody honestly expect Schumacher to be anything less that determined and focused?

It isn't news...it's fecking obvious.

Doesn't matter if you are Ferrari, Mclaren or Force India....Michael will treat you as a competitor.

And vice versa.

Saint Devote

3rd January 2010, 15:55

Apart from the ridiculous dramatic tinge to your verse (which begs the question "how old are you?"), why would anybody honestly expect Schumacher to be anything less that determined and focused?

It isn't news...it's fecking obvious.

Doesn't matter if you are Ferrari, Mclaren or Force India....Michael will treat you as a competitor.

And vice versa.

To a driver like Schumacher - prepared to do what he did to Hill and attempted to do to Villeneuve - it means a great deal.

Ferrari will be his particular target and the enemy that he knows best of all as well as their number two driver who he literally taught.

Victory over di Montezemolo and Alonso will be the sweetest revenge, because Alonso is viewed as the saviour.

Schumacher has unfinished business in f1. This is not merely about returning because he is bored. It is about proving how wrong Ferrari was and demonstrating that HE and not Alonso is the most complete driver in the world and of course about beating Alonso - period. 2005 and 2006 burns Schumacher fans - imagine how Schumacher views it.

And to return with a team that he KNOWS no matter what is said, see him as their champion and seeking to bring glory to Mercedes and Germany? What Schumacher wants - Schumi will get. Norbert Haug does not play games.

If you disagree with this it merely demonstrates naivette - nothing wrong with that especially coming from the corner of a race track now long forgotten by f1.

Saint Devote

3rd January 2010, 16:04

As a winner of the Singapore GP and a racer in the 2007 McLaren, it would be wise if Alonso does not speak about cheating.

Cheating in f1 is a subjective view.

If it is officially sanctioned - such as the secret agreement providing Ferrari with a technical veto - then it is fine.

If it is known by the FIA powers that be - such as Crashgate - it will be overlooked until someone raises it - the Piquets - or sees fit to use it as a weapon - such as Max versus Flavio.

Does it matter whether Alonso knew or not? No. He is not a policeman and not a snitch and would never betray Flavio - he had no obligation to tell.

Alonso did nothing wrong.

Similarly with Mclaren in 2007 - that was more than anything Latin temperament meets anglo-saxon culture. Realistically it was antipathy from day one!

F1boat

3rd January 2010, 17:08

Alonso was unaware of the situation with Renault, but benefited from it. From what I remember, he knew that McLaren has stoled Ferrari data. So not cool to accuse anyone of cheating.

ioan

3rd January 2010, 18:58

Only one team can win at a time. And if you can only win with assistance.....

:eek: I wonder what Button and Brawn think about you accusing them like this?

ioan

3rd January 2010, 19:00

Beware Italia, the Hun Horde is about to descend once again and no mercy will be shown.

Get yourself a history book before talking bout Huns. Or did I miss Baumgartner making a comeback to F1?!

Saint Devote

3rd January 2010, 21:28

Get yourself a history book before talking bout Huns. Or did I miss Baumgartner making a comeback to F1?!

I see you are an East European foreigner - in WW2 the HUN were the Germans.

But this is clearly the best you can do as Schumi and Mercedes are going to kick Ferrari ass like never before.

Couldn't happen to nicer guys - no special FIA favors to rescue them now.....

And Mclaren will be there led by Jense and Lewis to utterly demolish the Red Tide from Maranello.

Imagine the histrionics, the screaming, the shouting, the accusations and the sulking in the Ferrari garage THIS season!!! Too funny! :D

I think dear old Rob Smedley is going to have to be Dr Freud SUPERSTAR to calm Felipe down during the season :eek:

Saint Devote

3rd January 2010, 21:31

:eek: I wonder what Button and Brawn think about you accusing them like this?

Sorry to burst your retro dream - but this is 2010 - there IS no "Button and Brawn" - there is only Button - Mclaren and, Mercedes Benz F1 commanded by Ross Brawn.

Welcome to the present! :rolleyes:

ioan

3rd January 2010, 22:24

Sorry to burst your retro dream - but this is 2010 - there IS no "Button and Brawn" - there is only Button - Mclaren and, Mercedes Benz F1 commanded by Ross Brawn.

Welcome to the present! :rolleyes:

Bla bla bla, I was talking about 2009 :p :!

And in 2009 Button will only be allowed to smell Lewy's socks from a distance. ;)
So, welcome to the not so rosy present!

ioan

3rd January 2010, 22:26

I see you are an East European foreigner - in WW2 the HUN were the Germans.

My bad, I should have known that you were using it as a negative and discriminatory denomination. :\

F1boat

4th January 2010, 06:38

Get yourself a history book before talking bout Huns. Or did I miss Baumgartner making a comeback to F1?!

Please, please! Here in Bulgaria we also consider ourselves related to the mighty Attila! ;)
And let's not talk about WW2 in a racing forum, PLEASE!
BTW, guys, why don't you make a sig betting match? Jenson vs MS or Jenson vs Felipe?

pino

4th January 2010, 07:39

I am about to lose my patience, so please let's stick to the topic or this thread will be closed...and this time someone will pay for that.

F1boat

4th January 2010, 12:06

OK. When can we expect the new crimson car?

9th January 2010, 20:56

Saint Devote

10th January 2010, 00:36

The new Ferrari will be designated the 281.

"Ferrari's 2010 challenger - designated the 281 - will make its track debut at the first post-testing ban sessions at Valencia on 1 February as expected"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80783

The F60 is about to become known as one of their most disliked f1 cars. Ing Ferrari would have melted it down in record time!

281 - 2.8 litres and the "1"? I have always, until the F60, thought the designation the best in f1 because it informs about the car.

Dave B

10th January 2010, 10:52

281 - 2.8 litres and the "1"?
If that's the case then I expect them to fail scrutineering at the first event :p

F1boat

10th January 2010, 11:07

10th January 2010, 12:40

If that's the case then I expect them to fail scrutineering at the first event :p

Nope, they've got a special dispensation from Jean, who has promised to measure the displacement using a jug with oversize level indicators on it written in marker pen in what suspiciously looks like Fernando's handwriting after being slipped a few quid by Max who is secretly the new team manager at Maranello.

It's bollocks, of course, but then that hasn't stopped the proposterous conspiracy theory morons believing utter drivel in the past.

In fact, I'll give it 30 minutes before somebody is repeating the claim on Autosports forum as proof positive of Ferrari malpractice.