Ferrari and their shortcomings

[ioan]

It looks like it's time to start this thread again this year.

They did nothing right in the first race.

One would think that they would better themselves after such a bad showing, but no, even if they have one of the best cars for the Sepang circuit they do something as stupid as not sending their drivers out when it was obvious that everyone was improving their times.

Last year they faults were excused because it was the first year for the new team management.
What's their excuse for such stupidity this year?

[Valve Bounce]

Last year they faults were excused because it was the first year for the new team management.
What's their excuse for such stupidity this year?

Same bugger in charge?? :p :

[callum122]

Maybe they should hand over the controls to M Schumacher, what is his role exactly with the Ferrari team?

[ioan]

Same bugger in charge?? :p :

I think it's sad but you are right.

[wedge]

What's their excuse for such stupidity?

Massa's and/or Smedley's arrogance most likely.

Kimi didn't have much of a problem in Q1.

[ioan]

Maybe they should hand over the controls to M Schumacher, what is his role exactly with the Ferrari team?

Adviser!
Sadly he already turned down the team boss offer in 2007. :(

[ioan]

Massa's and/or Smedley's arrogance most likely.

Kimi didn't have much of a problem in Q1.

Yeah right, :rolleyes: he just got a bit of luck and went through in 14th place and a couple of tenths shy of going to walk together with Massa.

I wish people would stay out of discussion when they are not really informed about what they talk.

PS: FYI the drivers are not the one's making the calculations and deciding the strategies.

[Dave B]

Massa's and/or Smedley's arrogance most likely.

Kimi didn't have much of a problem in Q1.
On the contrary, I think Kimi was fortunate to scrape through into Q2. Maybe it was a determination to save tyres, but it was one hell of a gamble.

[Tumbo]

perhaps the drivers should set the strategy - wouldn't be surprised if Massa had a strong word w/ Smedley after this one..............but then again maybe they aim to have everything which can conceivably go wrong for a driver happen so that he can have a run of success like Schumacher :rolleyes: yes sounds plausible doesn't it

[ioan]

On the contrary, I think Kimi was fortunate to scrape through into Q2. Maybe it was a determination to save tyres, but it was one hell of a gamble.

Yep, it would have been much more intelligent to save a tire in Q3 when they would have been in the first 10 for sure.

I don't know who the Ferrari strategists is but it looks that is the same one they had last season and he is clearly lacking what's needed.
Why don't they give him something else to do? Like measuring driver shoe sizes or something like that and put someone intelligent enough on his place?
Also why the ones that are probably more intelligent don't simply override he's poor strategies?

If sitting in front of my computer was enough to realize that they are 99% out of the contest for the first 15 places than they should have known it for sure given all the data they have at disposal.

FGS they were not even prepared to send the cars out just in case. That's amateurish, something situated at Lola Mastercard level at best.

[wedge]

PS: FYI the drivers are not the one's making the calculations and deciding the strategies.

Massa was the slowest of the Ferraris and the times were tumbling.

If Massa had balls then he should've insisted on doing another run.

[ioan]

Massa was the slowest of the Ferraris and the times were tumbling.

If Massa had balls then he should've insisted on doing another run.

What have balls got to do with strategy? I thought only Hamy was talking about balls no matter in what situation.

You are saying stupid things just for the sake of contradicting me. If it makes you pleasure than so be it, I will not lose my time with such petty duels.

[Dave B]

You are saying stupid things just for the sake of contradicting me. If it makes you pleasure than so be it, I will not lose my time with such petty duels.
So you're saying that Massa is just a puppet who will do whatever the team tells him without being man enough to state his own case? Hmm, where have I heard you criticising someone else for doing that recently? :dozey:

[wedge]

Yep, it would have been much more intelligent to save a tire in Q3 when they would have been in the first 10 for sure.

Why save a tyre for Q3 if you it might look like you might not get into Q2?

[DexDexter]

Yeah right, :rolleyes: he just got a bit of luck and went through in 14th place and a couple of tenths shy of going to walk together with Massa.

I wish people would stay out of discussion when they are not really informed about what they talk.

PS: FYI the drivers are not the one's making the calculations and deciding the strategies.

Kimi was quicker than Massa in the session, plain and simple. That's why he made it. Massa said in an interview that he made a mistake on his fastest lap, that's all it took.

[SGWilko]

Maybe they should hand over the controls to M Schumacher, what is his role exactly with the Ferrari team?

Make money, because the poor darling is Jocken Rindt......? ;)

[SGWilko]

So you're saying that Massa is just a puppet who will do whatever the team tells him without being man enough to state his own case? Hmm, where have I heard you criticising someone else for doing that recently? :dozey:

Eeeerrrrrmmmmm, dunno, gisa clue Dave ;)

Massa was the slowest of the Ferraris and the times were tumbling.

If Massa had balls then he should've insisted on doing another run.

I think you may be on to something, sadly.

Felipe is a lovely bloke, a real team player, but sometimes he needs to be a bit more forceful both on and track and off it.

As for the current team management....one championship victory off the back of the Schumacher era and a decline ever since surely shows that whoever let Ross Brawn go made a mistake.

What annoys me most is this idea that under Domencali Ferrari are much nicer and friendlier....well, feck that. Bring back the Todt mentality...nobody else is trying to be nice in F1...quite the opposite.

[F1boat]

Ferrari's arrogance and stupidity is astonishing. It is very sad to see how the great legacy of Jean, Ross and Michael is ruined by some incompetents. I hope that Kimi will do well tomorrow, although with this team, it will be very hard :(

[christophulus]

even if they have one of the best cars for the Sepang circuit they do something as stupid as not sending their drivers out when it was obvious that everyone was improving their times.

I'm not too sure about that. The BBC commentators this morning were suggesting that the Ferraris are only keeping pace due to KERS down the straights.

Massa would have made it through to Q3 easily but Ferrari were overconfident, possibly arrogant. Shocking strategy decision and ultimately Massa should have gone out again, so I'd have to pin the blame on him I'm afraid. Whether wrongly advised or not it's his decision to make.

So you're saying that Massa is just a puppet who will do whatever the team tells him without being man enough to state his own case? Hmm, where have I heard you criticising someone else for doing that recently? :dozey:

At least Massa doesn't lie to the stewards, disgracing himself and showing himself to be morally corrupt in the process.

Mind you, he'd probably become a hero who was fighting a just war against the FIA in the eyes of some if he did.

[Robinho]

in isolation the Massa qually errr is nothing remarkable, its happened before and it will happen again, sure its cost them now, but thats what happens when you take gambes, sometimes you lose.

taken in context of the last season and a half or so, this sort of, easy to make error, has been happening all too often for an outfit that used to be as watertight as it was in recent history.

surely its a combination of things that have lead to this, IMO and in no particular order:

the loss of MS, and the huge confidence he gave to the team, that even in the event of a mistake he could make up for it.

The tactical nouse and guidance of Ross Brawn, and the confidence that gives to a team.

the whole team structure that was probably as good as it good be from top to bottom, instilled by Jean Todt, RB, MS Rory Byrne and the rest. all thses things have moved on, and whilst the echoes are still there it s not enough to prevent the team making mistakes that i reckon they probably wouldn't have done a few years ago.

add to all that there are a few teams who have learned form Ferrari in the strong years and are probably pushing them harder, forcing them to push the envelope, taken out of a comfort zone, again mistakes will creep in.

all that said, they still have to be considered one of the stongest outfits on the grid, and will do if they learn from any mistakes they do make - they are a very different team to that of a feew years ago and perhaps have to make and learn from their own errors.

[ioan]

Kimi was quicker than Massa in the session, plain and simple. That's why he made it. Massa said in an interview that he made a mistake on his fastest lap, that's all it took.

I thought maybe people will be smart enough not to turn this into a driver vs driver fight. Obviously I was wrong. :rolleyes:

Once again this thread is about Ferrari's shortcomings and you aren't a Ferrari fan so bugger off. I need no fanboys who only care about who's favorite driver is the best of the world.

[ioan]

I'm not too sure about that. The BBC commentators this morning were suggesting that the Ferraris are only keeping pace due to KERS down the straights.

I suppose that KERS is part of the car and so I don't see the point of the beeb commentators.

[ioan]

I just read through the thread and it's obvious it had been already destroyed by Ferrari-bashers. Half of the comments are nothing but venom spitting from haters. :down:

[SGWilko]

I suppose that KERS is part of the car and so I don't see the point of the beeb commentators.

The only reason Kimi was so quick is the threat of his KERS going bang and burning his butt cheeks kept him honest.

[DexDexter]

I thought maybe people will be smart enough not to turn this into a driver vs driver fight. Obviously I was wrong. :rolleyes:

Once again this thread is about Ferrari's shortcomings and you aren't a Ferrari fan so bugger off. I need no fanboys who only care about who's favorite driver is the best of the world.

Maybe you should cool down your eastern European temper a little bit, you are not a moderator and cannot tell people what to do.

[ioan]

Maybe you should cool down your eastern European temper a little bit, you are not a moderator and cannot tell people what to do.

:rolleyes:

[wedge]

I just read through the thread and it's obvious it had been already destroyed by Ferrari-bashers. Half of the comments are nothing but venom spitting from haters. :down:


I think you may be on to something, sadly.

Felipe is a lovely bloke, a real team player, but sometimes he needs to be a bit more forceful both on and track and off it.

As for the current team management....one championship victory off the back of the Schumacher era and a decline ever since surely shows that whoever let Ross Brawn go made a mistake.

What annoys me most is this idea that under Domencali Ferrari are much nicer and friendlier....well, feck that. Bring back the Todt mentality...nobody else is trying to be nice in F1...quite the opposite.

I'm not Ferrari hater. I'm making constructive criticism, you see it as Ferrari bashing.

At least an original tifosi Tamburello is intelligent enough to take on all sides of criticism.

It seems as from Ioan's POV Massa can do no wrong apart from management.

[Dave B]

I just read through the thread and it's obvious it had been already destroyed by Ferrari-bashers. Half of the comments are nothing but venom spitting from haters. :down:
It's ironic that you find that a problem when so many threads have turned into McLaren bashing sessions. Maybe ironic isn't the word. Hypocritical, maybe. Whatever, it's a discussion forum and we're discussing Ferrari's shortcomings - the thread title, which you chose - is the giveaway.

Run off and start a thread where everything's lovely and fluffy if you like, but you simply cannot get upset if some people justifiably criticise a team for the sort of organisational cock-ups we've witnessed over the past two seasons.

[ioan]

It seems as from Ioan's POV Massa can do no wrong apart from management.

Sure he can do wrong and he did plenty mistakes, but he is not deciding the strategy, no matter how we look at it it was not up to him to call it this time, and his faith in the team was his undoing. Hopefully they all (including Massa) have learnt the lesson, but I hoped this last season and look where they are again.

[Ranger]

I think there is a bit of bad blood between Ross, Jean and Luca... that's where you can trace the meltdown to.

I'd be very interested to know the full story though.

[RJL25]

Ferrari is a lot like Massa, fast but lots of mistakes.

Ferrari, in a nutshell, have the best resources in Formula One, probably the best budget, more often then not make either the best or equal to the best car each season, but in recent times have made a high number of tactical errors. Clearly whoever is in charge of tactics at Ferrari on GP weekends needs to be removed.

Perhaps that could be Michael's new role?

[wedge]

Sure he can do wrong and he did plenty mistakes, but he is not deciding the strategy, no matter how we look at it it was not up to him to call it this time, and his faith in the team was his undoing. Hopefully they all (including Massa) have learnt the lesson, but I hoped this last season and look where they are again.

Of course Massa has/should have a say in strategy.

In Fuji last year Alonso persuaded the team not to alter their race strategy mid-race because Alonso knew that the longer he stayed on track the more Kubica would suffer from the graining phase and therefore increase the lead.

In Monza last year Hamilton decided to qualify with inters in Q2. Yes it was the wrong call but at least he showed some courage and initiative. Conversely Hamilton stayed out on inters at Silverstone and was told to slow down even though Hamilton was in a comfort zone when everyone else were slipping and sliding on the same tyres.

If Massa is leaving it down to the team all the time then I think Massa is somewhat mentally weak, be it a combination of emotions and tactical thinking. Very few occasion where do we witness Massa's tactical prowess.

[markabilly]

I think there is a bit of bad blood between Ross, Jean and Luca... that's where you can trace the meltdown to.

I'd be very interested to know the full story though.


I too as well have wondered.

At Monza, it seemed to me that MS was pressured to retire and after the race, while Luca kept opening his arms as though he expected some acknowledgement from MS, MS just ignored him, but he did not ignore Jean Todt nor Brawn and the crew. Much hugging and crying.
I guess by that point, the Schumacher "mafia" was broken..........and MS always palyed the role of the silent team principle when he was there


Massa answer: "I blame everybody..." for the mistake in qulifying....
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74240

[pino]

Once again this thread is about Ferrari's shortcomings and you aren't a Ferrari fan so bugger off. I need no fanboys who only care about who's favorite driver is the best of the world.

Stop telling people what to do/what not to do...and cool down !

[christophulus]

I suppose that KERS is part of the car and so I don't see the point of the beeb commentators.

Hmm, reading it back I do see your point. It might be that they mean that being able to boost along the straights is bringing the overall lap time up to average, and without it they'd be further behind? I don't know, but they're not at the sharp end either way.

Raikkonen says (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74260) something similar:


"The car is not lacking in any particular area, but we do not have enough grip to be as quick as those who finished ahead of us today.



"Tomorrow's race will be very tough. We will try to make the most of the start. In Australia, it was very good but there was nowhere to go, whereas here, the straight is long and the track is wide. Furthermore, as we saw yesterday, our pace is competitive.


KERS off the start will be a huge advantage, especially with that long straight. Ferrari will just have to hope there's no more reliability issues.

[ioan]

Hmm, reading it back I do see your point. It might be that they mean that being able to boost along the straights is bringing the overall lap time up to average, and without it they'd be further behind? I don't know, but they're not at the sharp end either way.

If they wouldn't have compromised the design of the car to implement KERS than it's anybody's guess, but I think that they would be up there with Red Bull at least.

[jens]

I think it was expected (and expected by me too) that after the departure of Team MS at least some kind of downfall will take place. A lot of changes have taken place and there are a lot of guys in key positions now about whose 'quality' we weren't sure about before they were appointed the job.

Ferrari was struggling with strategy, unreliability and cock-ups already in 2008, by now it looks like the raw pace of the machinery (which has been Ferrari's main strength lately) has suffered a bit too. Well, what can I say - the classical pre-96 Ferrari is returning. :p :

These are the moments, when I feel a driver like Alonso should be part of Ferrari. Not that I believe in his mythical 6 tenths or whatever (see, Renault is midfield yet again, so where are the tenths?), but there is something about him that creates a feeling that any team would benefit of his presence in their team...

[SGWilko]

If they wouldn't have compromised the design of the car to implement KERS than it's anybody's guess, but I think that they would be up there with Red Bull at least.

Oh, come on ioan, cut your team some slack...

KERS is compulsory in '10. Best get it in the car a year early and learn an awful lot about it. If they did a Brawn and left it for a year, and struggled when all around them were up to speed, how would you feel then?

The team is clearly still finding its feet post Schumacher/Brawn. Kimi keeps brain farting, and Massa nearly took the title last year remember......

Maybe Ferrari need you to run their team.... ;)

[jjanicke]

If they wouldn't have compromised the design of the car to implement KERS than it's anybody's guess, but I think that they would be up there with Red Bull at least.

Perhaps, but it's just as likely that it would have no effect whatsoever.

Comparing any team to Ferrari's '00 - '04 run is somewhat comical. Just like comparing any team to the ueber-dominant mid-late-80's Mclaren. It's impossible for to maintain that level of dominance, as was evident with Mclaren and even the last years of MS Ferrari era, forever.

So they messed up. Many teams do. Look at Brawn GP. Almost blew their OZ lead with Jenson's last refueling, and they clearly have the most dominant '09 car.

[ioan]

Perhaps, but it's just as likely that it would have no effect whatsoever.

That's wishful thinking.
The whole design of the chassis had to be compromised because a new 30 kgs component had to be installed and this also means 30kgs less of balast to use in order to balance the car.

Having KERS is more of a disadvantage than an advantage as it compromises the car's handling under braking and during cornering plus it doesn't help preserving the tires.

I'll wait a bit more before saying that the Ferrari is a bad car, their engineers clearly did a good job. However I can't say the same about their track and race management, way to many mistakes in a bit more than one season, way to many.

[ioan]

Oh, come on ioan, cut your team some slack...

That's exactly what I was doing in the post you just quoted. :p :

[jjanicke]

That's wishful thinking.
The whole design of the chassis had to be compromised because a new 30 kgs component had to be installed and this also means 30kgs less of balast to use in order to balance the car.

Having KERS is more of a disadvantage than an advantage as it compromises the car's handling under braking and during cornering plus it doesn't help preserving the tires.

I'll wait a bit more before saying that the Ferrari is a bad car, their engineers clearly did a good job. However I can't say the same about their track and race management, way to many mistakes in a bit more than one season, way to many.

I don't buy into your opinion.

Yes it made for a nice challenge as it relates to ballast and weight distribution. But I guarantee teams would not be using KERS if they thought it compromised their performance.

Kubica is the perfect example. He one of the tallest and heaviest drivers and he has elected not to use KERS because of the weight distribution issues. However Nick, a little feather weight elects to make use of the KERS.

Like someone already mentioned Ferrari will most likely fall further behind the front runners because of the absence of KERS due to their reliability issues.

[janneppi]

Both Massa and Räikkönen seem to complain about the same problem as McLaren drivers, Not enough downforce and not enough grip.

After Australia kimi said that Malaysia gives a better indication of how cars are compared to each other, I don't think he thought they were the ones who would fall back. :)

[I am evil Homer]

So it doesn't get better for Ferrari....wrong tyre calls at the wrong time.

[Ranger]

Two races, no points.

Not looking good.

[veeten]

Two weeks... that's how long they have to get back into this fight and get their heads around this early season's issues.

Two weeks.

[superocean]

Ferrari is taking chances like they are force india. No need to take such big chances if you have confidence in your car. Ok rain predicted.. so go to inters not full wet. WTF are they thinking?
Brawn was on soft until it began to rain.. just goes to show how the teams are thinking.. Ferrari needs to get their head back in the game. No more wine, no more panchettas, no more messing around with bad tyres, no more stupid lights at pit stops.. just figure out a way towin the races properly.

[Ranger]

At this rate I'm wondering... when will they win their next race?

Ferrari slipping back to pre-1997 form isn't something that is really admirable.

[markabilly]

Kimi goes on extreme wets way too early and starts losing 30 seconds a lap---once again, lousy tire choice leading to lousy results.......
by theend of the race (when red flagged) the only thing wetter that the track were my eyes.....
kimi is something of one of my favs, even if he be a bit sleepy at times during a race, something of a throwback to older days, when drivers were not corporate billboards for ads

[Somebody]

KERS is compulsory in '10. Best get it in the car a year early and learn an awful lot about it. If they did a Brawn and left it for a year, and struggled when all around them were up to speed, how would you feel then?
Brawn didn't actually have a choice - the Honda KERS, like the Honda engine, is off-limits to them. Toyota, OTOH...

Right now though, I agree that it appears that KERS is more of a net disadvantage than not in terms of laptime, although it may help somewhat in terms of track position in some cases...


Two races, no points.

Not looking good.
Well, the fact that Malaysia is half-points helps make that less painful than it may have been.

[ioan]

The rain was playing into their hands given that they had one driver on a long first stint and what they do?
They royally fed up Kimi's race putting him on full wet tires at a moment when every other team was still going for slicks! Than they keep Massa out on lap to much on slicks so that he doesn't gain to much from not having stopped yet.

Instead o having a cool headed chess player type strategist they have a hot headed poker player one, one that always gambles on the wrong strategy.

It's been one year since I said that the team has a bad strategist and it's one year that nothing has changed.
If it was Todt at the head of the team he would have made the changes straight away, Domenicali is a softy that can't be trusted to make the needed changes.

[markabilly]

I disagree about the lack of strategy and the future....clearly the team made the correct decision on when to pit for ice cream....

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee249/Piratella/Piratella_02/snapshot20090405133809.png

[Ranger]

The rain was playing into their hands given that they had one driver on a long first stint and what they do?
They royally fed up Kimi's race putting him on full wet tires at a moment when every other team was still going for slicks! Than they keep Massa out on lap to much on slicks so that he doesn't gain to much from not having stopped yet.

Instead o having a cool headed chess player type strategist they have a hot headed poker player one, one that always gambles on the wrong strategy.

It's been one year since I said that the team has a bad strategist and it's one year that nothing has changed.
If it was Todt at the head of the team he would have made the changes straight away, Domenicali is a softy that can't be trusted to make the needed changes.

Todt was there in 2007 and there were still pretty fundamental errors then as well.

[ioan]

Well, the fact that Malaysia is half-points helps make that less painful than it may have been.

Yep, given their cock-ups they are not deserving this luxury.

[ioan]

Todt was there in 2007 and there were still pretty fundamental errors then as well.

Just count the errors in 2007 and than do the same with 2008 and 2009.
I'm inclined to say that there were more errors in 2009 already after 2 races than in 2007 during the whole season.

Also I was talking about Todt straightening things up after an error not about taking care of everything that could go wrong.

[ioan]

I disagree about the lack of strategy and the future....clearly the team made the correct decision on when to pit for ice cream....

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee249/Piratella/Piratella_02/snapshot20090405133809.png

:rotflmao: :up:

[donKey jote]

markabilly you donkey, how come you're watching donkey tv ? :p

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[markabilly]

markabilly you donkey, how come you're watching donkey tv ? :p

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif
cause it shows how I met your mother in Spain.....at the bar named Maclaren.......

.. :p imp:

[jens]

Well, there are no excuses. This was a major cock-up. Ferrari has become a joke with its moronic strategies. It looks like the fact that Ferrari doesn't have a fastest car any more, has made them nervous and anxious, which las led to unreasonable decisions.

It seems Ferrari isn't really entering the pre-96 era, they are already there... Last position in WCC after two races - a real embarrassment for the most legendary team of F1. :\ And Kimi's KERS stopped functioning properly for multiple occasions this weekend too...

[ioan]

Well, there are no excuses. This was a major cock-up. Ferrari has become a joke with its moronic strategies. It looks like the fact that Ferrari doesn't have a fastest car any more, has made them nervous and anxious, which las led to unreasonable decisions.

It seems Ferrari isn't really entering the pre-96 era, they are already there... Last position in WCC after two races - a real embarrassment for the most legendary team of F1. :\ And Kimi's KERS stopped functioning properly for multiple occasions this weekend too...

Remind me who was saying that I was exaggerating last season when I was complaining about the mistakes :?:
If I remember it right it was some Estonian guy! ;)

[jens]

Remind me who was saying that I was exaggerating last season when I was complaining about the mistakes :?:
If I remember it right it was some Estonian guy! ;)

Last year they had at least the fastest car, which brought them the WCC. So far it looks like they will be competing for much less in 09...

[ioan]

Last year they had at least the fastest car, which brought them the WCC. So far it looks like they will be competing for much less in 09...

Don't hide, it's useless. I didn't complain about the car, not last year and not this year, but about the team.
And you said I'm exaggerating and it's only because they are new in their positions. Now you come and say they are like in the early '90s. Interesting U-turn there.

If it was Todt at the head of the team he would have made the changes straight away, Domenicali is a softy that can't be trusted to make the needed changes.

Totally agree. Anybody who has Ron Dennis saying "nice" things about is way too soft. When Dennis says that, you know that he is really thinking "no threat".

Todt put the fear of God into Dennis....no way does Domencali do that to anybody.

Add to that, the drivers are apparently unable to kick up a big enough stink to over-rule any decision they think is crap or to force the team to change tack.

Mind you, when one would rather eat ice reams than put miles on the clock and the other one needs to be spoken to like he's a school girl, perhaps we shouldn't be surprised by a total lack of ruthlessness and a collapse into farce.

[ioan]

Totally agree. Anybody who has Ron Dennis saying "nice" things about is way too soft. When Dennis says that, you know that he is really thinking "no threat".

Todt put the fear of God into Dennis....no way does Domencali do that to anybody.

Add to that, the drivers are apparently unable to kick up a big enough stink to over-rule any decision they think is crap or to force the team to change tack.

Mind you, when one would rather eat ice reams than put miles on the clock and the other one needs to be spoken to like he's a school girl, perhaps we shouldn't be surprised by a total lack of ruthlessness and a collapse into farce.

Very sad indeed.

[jens]

Don't hide, it's useless. I didn't complain about the car, not last year and not this year, but about the team.
And you said I'm exaggerating and it's only because they are new in their positions. Now you come and say they are like in the early '90s. Interesting U-turn there.

I'm talking about "overall package". Last year their car was simply too quick for being "in the mid-90's", they were struggling in some areas, but the pace of the car saved them. The overall result was a team's ultimate goal - a World Title. Now the results (ultimate indicator of an "overall package" of a team) are more representative of the 90's. First or last in WCC - big difference there! (although obviously they won't remain last :p : )

[ioan]

I'm talking about "overall package". Last year their car was simply too quick for being "in the mid-90's", they were struggling in some areas, but the pace of the car saved them. The overall result was a team's ultimate goal - a World Title. Now the results (ultimate indicator of an "overall package" of a team) are more representative of the 90's.

Well I was not talking about overall package only about the new management and the idiot strategist, because I think the car is good this season too given that it was engineered by the same guys like in 2007 and 2008.
The mistakes look even worse than before though.

[gloomyDAY]

I think what bothers me about Massa is that Rob Smedley is always holding his hand. Just seems unnatural for a Formula 1 driver to need so much guidance during a hard fought championship. Also, I think Kimi's arrogance is beginning to isolate him from his crew. Being apathetic about everything is probably beginning to wear on some nerves.

Lastly, I like Stefano as a person, but is too soft as a leader. Harry Truman once said, "The buck stops here." Maybe Stefano should keep that in mind at the next GP.

[donKey jote]

cause it shows how I met your mother in Spain.....at the bar named Maclaren.......

.. :p imp:

named Maclaren? Liar ! :laugh:

yer missus only comes on la Sexta later btw, after the watershed... you don't need to watch it all day :)

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[markabilly]

I think what bothers me about Massa is that Rob Smedley is always holding his hand. Just seems unnatural for a Formula 1 driver to need so much guidance during a hard fought championship. Also, I think Kimi's arrogance is beginning to isolate him from his crew. Being apathetic about everything is probably beginning to wear on some nerves.

Lastly, I like Stefano as a person, but is too soft as a leader. Harry Truman once said, "The buck stops here." Maybe Stefano should keep that in mind at the next GP.


yeah I thought it was pretty funny at the time, but upon further reflection, if I was da boss or on the team, not so sure I would appreciate the attitude, even if the Kers had been giving him some issues.....

but then if I were the driver, I would not appreciate what happenned at Spa last year or what happenned today when he was called in way too early and put on wets :(

(and DonKey as to the reference to the bar in the tv show, you are right, but I was just being nice in lieing, I should have said the truth as in "street corner", but alas, I got a bit Lewisey in my post...:cheese :)

I think what bothers me about Massa is that Rob Smedley is always holding his hand. Just seems unnatural for a Formula 1 driver to need so much guidance during a hard fought championship. Also, I think Kimi's arrogance is beginning to isolate him from his crew. Being apathetic about everything is probably beginning to wear on some nerves.

Lastly, I like Stefano as a person, but is too soft as a leader. Harry Truman once said, "The buck stops here." Maybe Stefano should keep that in mind at the next GP.

100% Agree!

[DexDexter]

Totally agree. Anybody who has Ron Dennis saying "nice" things about is way too soft. When Dennis says that, you know that he is really thinking "no threat".

Todt put the fear of God into Dennis....no way does Domencali do that to anybody.

Add to that, the drivers are apparently unable to kick up a big enough stink to over-rule any decision they think is crap or to force the team to change tack.

Mind you, when one would rather eat ice reams than put miles on the clock and the other one needs to be spoken to like he's a school girl, perhaps we shouldn't be surprised by a total lack of ruthlessness and a collapse into farce.

Maybe they need a non-Italian team principal. Last time an Italian was at the head of the team (early 90's) resulted in similar situations that we are seeing now. Maybe there's too much passion for the Scuderia and a more calm and collected approach by a foreigner is needed, just maybe.

[SGWilko]

It looks like both Ferrari and McLaren are destined to put themselves through a period of self destruction.

[ioan]

It looks like both Ferrari and McLaren are destined to put themselves through a period of self destruction.

With Ron and Mercedes as shareholders this will be sorted out pretty fast.
However Ferrari are already one year after it was evident that changes were needed but they didn't took any visible steps to sort that out and the same people are making the same mistakes again.

[ioan]

Maybe they need a non-Italian team principal. Last time an Italian was at the head of the team (early 90's) resulted in similar situations that we are seeing now. Maybe there's too much passion for the Scuderia and a more calm and collected approach by a foreigner is needed, just maybe.

I agree with this view.
However if they want an Italian at the top than they should try Briatorre, I reckon he would bring order in this chaos pretty fast.

[SGWilko]

With Ron and Mercedes as shareholders this will be sorted out pretty fast.
However Ferrari are already one year after it was evident that changes were needed but they didn't took any visible steps to sort that out and the same people are making the same mistakes again.

Chuffin' Nora ioan, was that a complimet to Ron 'integrity' Dennis?

[SGWilko]

I agree with this view.
However if they want an Italian at the top than they should try Briatorre, I reckon he would bring order in this chaos pretty fast.

Flav? Are you nuts? No way, Pedro!

[ioan]

Chuffin' Nora ioan, was that a complimet to Ron 'integrity' Dennis?

As much as being better than Domenicalli can be taken as a compliment! ;)

[ioan]

Flav? Are you nuts? No way, Pedro!

I trust him to throw out the man with dices used by Ferrari to 'guess' the strategy and shake the others up a bit.

[SGWilko]

As much as being better than Domenicalli can be taken as a compliment! ;)

You can see why Ron has been reluctant to hand over to Whitmarsh. Second 'day' in the job and it's all gone Pete Tong....

[ioan]

You can see why Ron has been reluctant to hand over to Whitmarsh. Second 'day' in the job and it's all gone Pete Tong....

Yep, just like Ferrari, he groomed the wrong guy to take over.

If I remember it right last year after the first mistakes Jean Todt was again back in the background during the race week ends making sure everything is done right. Now he said bye to Ferrari, and I honestly do understand his point, and there is no one to fall back on. :(

[veeten]

Looks more and more to me like Ferrari-post Mauro Forghieri, where they were floundering until the Todt-Brawn-Byrne team came in.

Like I said before, ioan,... Two weeks.

[markabilly]

You can see why Ron has been reluctant to hand over to Whitmarsh. Second 'day' in the job and it's all gone Pete Tong....
mac job is far easier...all they got to do is fix the car and tell Lewis to stop lying.....


What struck me as sad, after I stopped laughing, was how Massa was in such a panic wanting a clear visor and the silly response from the team about be cool baby.......I mean the driver does not even have faith enough that the team will get him a clear visor, so where is the faith for more complex decisions like tyre choice, pit stops, car set up......

Maybe the smartest thing at the race that either driver did was to get the ice cream bar....

[dj_bytedisaster]

Well, I think you're writing Ferrari off too soon. The major problem is in the drivers section. Felippe panicks too quickly if things go wrong, so he is noe leader. And Kimmi just looks as if the can't be arsed anymore. So as harsh as it might sound, Kimmi has to go. What they need is a leader, like Schumacher was, one that pulls the strings and kicks the teams arses if they eff up.

If nothing helps, get the old man himself back in the cockpit. How would you as a team member motivate yourself, when the driver you have to work for looks distinctively unmotivated himself?

[DexDexter]

Well, I think you're writing Ferrari off too soon. The major problem is in the drivers section. Felippe panicks too quickly if things go wrong, so he is noe leader. And Kimmi just looks as if the can't be arsed anymore. So as harsh as it might sound, Kimmi has to go. What they need is a leader, like Schumacher was, one that pulls the strings and kicks the teams arses if they eff up.

If nothing helps, get the old man himself back in the cockpit. How would you as a team member motivate yourself, when the driver you have to work for looks distinctively unmotivated himself?

I don't think drivers are the problem, it's the management or lack of it that is causing this disarray. And by the way, Schumacher didn't pull the strings and kick up the team's arses, he brought is own team from Benetton. In early 90's they had Prost (who was a leader) and still they ended up sacking him in complete disarray.

[F1boat]

I don't think drivers are the problem, it's the management or lack of it that is causing this disarray. And by the way, Schumacher didn't pull the strings and kick up the team's arses, he brought is own team from Benetton. In early 90's they had Prost (who was a leader) and still they ended up sacking him in complete disarray.

I agree. They need a good team leader - but where can they find such a man? It is not that simple.

[ioan]

Well, I think you're writing Ferrari off too soon. The major problem is in the drivers section.

That's not true. They have a WDC and the driver who missed the WDC last season by one point because the team kept messing up his good races.

Yesterday both drivers were pissed of to the point where Kimi did shout in the radio when his full wet tires were shot after driving almost 5 laps on a dry track and Felipe was trying to make sure they'll get him his visor. I'm not even sure that what he heard on radio was the first time when Felipe asked for the white visor, I suppose he did it several times and got no answer from the panicked management, thus the irritated discussion.

IMO the drivers are great, the car is good, they have the best pace out of all the KERS equipped cars, the strategist and the race management are pants however. They can't seem to be able to differentiate between their heads and tails.

[ioan]

I don't think drivers are the problem, it's the management or lack of it that is causing this disarray. And by the way, Schumacher didn't pull the strings and kick up the team's arses, he brought is own team from Benetton. In early 90's they had Prost (who was a leader) and still they ended up sacking him in complete disarray.

Agreed!

[ArrowsFA1]

Yesterday both drivers were pissed of to the point where Kimi did shout in the radio when his full wet tires were shot after driving almost 5 laps on a dry track...
Ferrari took a gamble with Kimi which didn't pay off. Had the rain come and had he then been on the right tyres at the right time I don't think he would have been shouting at his team. He would have been praising them.

[ioan]

Ferrari took a gamble with Kimi which didn't pay off. Had the rain come and had he then been on the right tyres at the right time I don't think he would have been shouting at his team. He would have been praising them.

FGS he was losing more than one pit stops time per lap! :rolleyes:
All the cars in front of him went for slicks because the track was still dry.
The full wets are shot in 2 laps if the track is dry, to the point that if it rains they are no good anymore.

PS: Gambling is for when Baldisseri goes to the casino, he should effin' stick to the hard data when on the pit wall.

[DexDexter]

Ferrari took a gamble with Kimi which didn't pay off. Had the rain come and had he then been on the right tyres at the right time I don't think he would have been shouting at his team. He would have been praising them.

But why should they take the gamble, that's the question.

[ArrowsFA1]

FGS he was losing more than one pit stops time per lap! :rolleyes:
All the cars in front of him went for slicks because the track was still dry.
The full wets are shot in 2 laps if the track is dry, to the point that if it rains they are no good anymore.
Of course, and as a Ferrari fan your frustration is entirely understandable. It's just that the gamble just might have worked had it rained heavily at the right time for Kimi. That's all.

Obviously it didn't, so dumb move by Ferrari.

[Dzeidzei]

But why should they take the gamble, that's the question.

Its pretty safe to say that every strategic decision Ferrari made this season was a false one. Does anyone know how much part MS plays in these f*ckups?

[DexDexter]

Its pretty safe to say that every strategic decision Ferrari made this season was a false one. Does anyone know how much part MS plays in these f*ckups?

According to some sources he was behind the decision, but I don't know. They need Jean Todt back as soon as possible!

[555-04Q2]

Its pretty safe to say that every strategic decision Ferrari made this season was a false one. Does anyone know how much part MS plays in these f*ckups?

None when it comes to Kimi. Kimi doesnt listen to MS's advice, it was covered in an article a while back. Looks like being a 7 times WDC count for nothing in Kimi's eyes. Massa has listened and learnt from MS over the lasy few years and look at his form over the last few years, phenomenal. Kimi is missing a trick if you ask me.

[555-04Q2]

According to some sources he was behind the decision, but I don't know. They need Jean Todt back as soon as possible!

Agreed, JT was a great leader and after Brawn, the second best person in F1 management for me.

[Dzeidzei]

None when it comes to Kimi. Kimi doesnt listen to MS's advice, it was covered in an article a while back. Looks like being a 7 times WDC count for nothing in Kimi's eyes. Massa has listened and learnt from MS over the lasy few years and look at his form over the last few years, phenomenal. Kimi is missing a trick if you ask me.

I think Schumi needs to go motorcycling a lot more.

[DexDexter]

None when it comes to Kimi. Kimi doesnt listen to MS's advice, it was covered in an article a while back. Looks like being a 7 times WDC count for nothing in Kimi's eyes. Massa has listened and learnt from MS over the lasy few years and look at his form over the last few years, phenomenal. Kimi is missing a trick if you ask me.

You're probably right, Schumacher's advice could be useful, but Kimi is a world champion as well, not a junior driver. I don't think Hamilton or Alonso or any other world champion would take advice from anybody either.

[Knock-on]

Of course, and as a Ferrari fan your frustration is entirely understandable. It's just that the gamble just might have worked had it rained heavily at the right time for Kimi. That's all.

Obviously it didn't, so dumb move by Ferrari.

This is the crux of the matter. If it would have worked, the Tifosi would have justifyably been cock a hoop and hailing the superior strategy but it didn't work. All through the meeting, Ferrari made fundamental mistakes and seem to be grasping at straws.

They really do need to be sorting themselves out as they are getting worse, not better.

[markabilly]

That's not true. They have a WDC and the driver who missed the WDC last season by one point because the team kept messing up his good races.

Yesterday both drivers were pissed of to the point where Kimi did shout in the radio when his full wet tires were shot after driving almost 5 laps on a dry track and Felipe was trying to make sure they'll get him his visor. I'm not even sure that what he heard on radio was the first time when Felipe asked for the white visor, I suppose he did it several times and got no answer from the panicked management, thus the irritated discussion.

IMO the drivers are great, the car is good, they have the best pace out of all the KERS equipped cars, the strategist and the race management are pants however. They can't seem to be able to differentiate between their heads and tails.


I agree, said much the same elsewhere, but just can not help but laugh at the images of what was occurring with the two drivers. Clearly there is a large foundation behind the appearances muchthat most of us do not see. (But as they say, one picture is worth a thousand words)

[markabilly]

Its pretty safe to say that every strategic decision Ferrari made this season was a false one. Does anyone know how much part MS plays in these f*ckups?


Maybe they should not listen to MS or anyone else, and start flipping coins....probably improve their results....

as to MS, I doubt seriously he had much of a say in anything and his presence is meant more as "pr" rather than authoritative managment

[ioan]

Its pretty safe to say that every strategic decision Ferrari made this season was a false one.

Yep!


Does anyone know how much part MS plays in these f*ckups?

MS doesn't play any role in strategic decision making. Basically he's there to advise the drivers on the slick tires usage, because they never raced in F1 on slicks.
It also seems that he's there to try to give the team some unity and inner force given that he's the last of the dream team who is still accepting to be linked to Ferrari.


According to some sources he was behind the decision, but I don't know. They need Jean Todt back as soon as possible!

The sources are basing their opinions on the fact that he gave an interview to RTL where he defended the team's decisions,like he always did in the past.

It's a case of journalists taking the opportunity to further blame him for anything and everything.

IF it was any truth in MS making some strategic decisions, which I highly doubt, than it means that the others one the pit wall are even stupider than I ever thought, given that MS is a great driver but has no possibilities to take a better decision than the guy sitting in front of a laptop full of useful data.

And Jean Todt is not coming back, he gave up his last responsibilities within Ferrari a few weeks ago, and I doubt he wants his name linked with the disaster we are seeing right now.
I wonder how long MS will stay around given that this situation is putting him in a very bad light.

[ioan]

Maybe they should not listen to MS or anyone else, and start flipping coins....probably improve their results....

They certainly would have a greater chance (50% >>> 0%) of getting it right flipping coins than listening to what their strategists comes up with.



as to MS, I doubt seriously he had much of a say in anything and his presence is meant more as "pr" rather than authoritative managment

Pretty much what I think too.
Also he did his best to defend the team after the race and now he get's blamed for the wrong strategy choice. I would be out of there in a second if it happened to me.

As for the drivers, they just trusted the pit wall once more, one time too much IMO.

What if the team told Kimi that it will rain in that very first lap?! He trusted them and Massa did so too, but 10 laps latter they were both frustrated with the team's cock-ups and were expressing their frustration as we all heard it.

I'm afraid that this kind of things will weaken the relation between the drivers and the guys on the pit wall and will only make things worse, so they better get things sorted out by next GP or the whole house of cards will collapse.

[markabilly]

Yep!


IF it was any truth in MS making some strategic decisions, which I highly doubt, than it means that the others one the pit wall are even stupider than I ever thought, given that MS is a great driver but has no possibilities to take a better decision than the guy sitting in front of a laptop full of useful data.

.
Given the level of and quality of recent Ferrari decisions, I would strenously have to disagree......I can make better decisions with just a tv and a mobile phone from 15, 000 miles away

Like:
okay we got about 5 mins to go, massa has turned in some good times, we just park it and wait for Q2? Yeah sure....

We decide without a drop hitting the track to go extreme wets, and stay out so that the extremes become slicks after a couple of laps (meaning if it really rains, he will be back anyway to get new extrmese with some actual treads) or do we wait until all the rubber is gone.....Yeah sure...let us wait, it will rain sooner or later...if not now, then within days after the race is over.

Clear visor, you want a clear visor? Well first explain why you want one and maybe you can have it, well maybe if I can remember where I put them.........

I could go on and on about the last two years, like not enough gas to go out and qualify, a pit rig fuel system that was dangerous (thought somebody might get killed, never thought it would just catch on the car and put Massa out of a wdc)

Odd, these teams are spending millions and their results come down to this type of stuff.... :confused:

And Mac ain't immune...LH hops out of the car does an impromtu interview where he tells all, but then gets summonned, and notwithstanding all the recorded info from car and the press, someone says LIE, and he says okay (I guess thinking, if I get caught I can always blame the team and say NOT me...) and the points disappear, well surprise surprise, who would have ever thought that :eek:

[ioan]

Odd, these teams are spending millions and their results come down to this type of stuff.... :confused:

They could certainly spend a couple tens of thousands and hire Kasparov to oversee their strategy, I'm pretty sure he will do much better than the Ferrari dice man.

[DexDexter]

They could certainly spend a couple tens of thousands and hire Kasparov to oversee their strategy, I'm pretty sure he will do much better than the Ferrari dice man.

Most people here at motorsports forums would have done a better job in Malaysia: a two-stop strategy, change to rain tires WHEN it starts to rain :)

[Dzeidzei]

Most people here at motorsports forums would have done a better job in Malaysia: a two-stop strategy, change to rain tires WHEN it starts to rain :)

With Kimi you could always argue that IF it started raining the minute they changed for full wets, some one would have been a hero. Kimi might have even won.

But to me it looked like a desperate act. And you dont do desperate acts unless youre desperate. As in you dont have a clue what´s wrong.

Dont expect Ferrari to fix these probs in 2 weeks. The way things are now they should be a lot faster than Brawn to win. Otherwise they´d just mess it up on tactics.

It all has Ross Brawn written all over the matter.

[jens]

Of course, and as a Ferrari fan your frustration is entirely understandable. It's just that the gamble just might have worked had it rained heavily at the right time for Kimi. That's all.

Obviously it didn't, so dumb move by Ferrari.

This is the problem with Ferrari. They are guessing and gambling too much. Such random game with fortune doesn't pay off. The Brawns pitted one and two laps later than Kimi, but still opted for slick tyres. Remember how Kimi was struggling on worn inters last year at Silverstone? In predicting weather Ferrari doesn't need a guess (oh maybe it pays off, maybe not, who knows, let's just try), they need a scientific approach. The weather predictions of other teams are simply better than Ferrari's, there is no question.



What struck me as sad, after I stopped laughing, was how Massa was in such a panic wanting a clear visor and the silly response from the team about be cool baby.......I mean the driver does not even have faith enough that the team will get him a clear visor, so where is the faith for more complex decisions like tyre choice, pit stops, car set up......

Maybe the smartest thing at the race that either driver did was to get the ice cream bar....

Hell yeah, at least there is one thing the drivers can trust on the team - there is always some tasty stuff in the fridge. :) Better than nothing, I guess. :p :

[ioan]

The weather predictions of other teams are simply better than Ferrari's, there is no question.

All the teams get the very same weather coverage from the FIA.

[Dave B]

However much it's tempting to blame Ferrari for poor timing in qualifying or the wrong call on tyres in the race, I can't imagine that Schumacher would have sat there quietly while chaos unfolded around him.

He would have been demanding an extra qualifying run, and telling the team in no uncertain terms which tyres he required. He was an integral part of the decision making process, and maybe it's time that Kimi and Felipe got stuck in more.

[Knock-on]

However much it's tempting to blame Ferrari for poor timing in qualifying or the wrong call on tyres in the race, I can't imagine that Schumacher would have sat there quietly while chaos unfolded around him.

He would have been demanding an extra qualifying run, and telling the team in no uncertain terms which tyres he required. He was an integral part of the decision making process, and maybe it's time that Kimi and Felipe got stuck in more.

Exactly.

It's about time Massa and Kimi stepped up to the plate and started taking control of their lives a bit more.

No point anyone bitching if they just sit there saying "yes Sir" all the time.

[stevie_gerrard]

I know it's a shame to see such a strong competitor in previous seasons struggling to get on the board, but it makes for a great season I think. The Mclaren and ferrari teams will sort out their issues come midway through the season, and probably find themselves dominating again. But with the head start the likes of toyota and brawn are getting, it makes the championship have a lot more contenders, and that can only be good for the sport.

Ferrari just need to find some confidence i think, as opposed to smuggery and big egos.

However much it's tempting to blame Ferrari for poor timing in qualifying or the wrong call on tyres in the race, I can't imagine that Schumacher would have sat there quietly while chaos unfolded around him.

He would have been demanding an extra qualifying run, and telling the team in no uncertain terms which tyres he required. He was an integral part of the decision making process, and maybe it's time that Kimi and Felipe got stuck in more.

Exactly.

Alonso, Hamilton & Kubica don't just accept. They demand, question and push.

[555-04Q2]

Exactly.

Alonso, Hamilton & Kubica don't just accept. They demand, question and push.

Ferrari management dont take to kindly to demands.

[ioan]

Ferrari management dont take to kindly to demands.

That was certainly the case with Todt, but what about Domenicali?

[555-04Q2]

That was certainly the case with Todt, but what about Domenicali?

I think he needs new hearing aids :p :

[Sleeper]

Baldisseri's strategy mistakes are really surprising as he's not new to this game, he effectively took over from Brawn around '04 (Brawn himself said this not long after he went on sabatical) and if he couldnt do the job, Todt would have got rid of him years ago. Dominicalli's been in team managment at Ferrari for more about a decade now so I dont think its him thats got it wrong, though he's not exactly getting it right either.

Either way, I would never have thought that after two races they would have been joint bottom of the table with Force India!

[ioan]

Lack of confidence + not having the fastest machine = desperate decisions!

In 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007 they had Todt, Brawn or even Schumacher playing an active role in the team.
In 2008 they were let alone at the beginning and everything resembled what we see now, only that the car was good and the drivers did well.
Also Todt was there in the background kicking their behinds.

Now Todt is away, Brwan is the enemy and MS isn't driving anymore (he's just trying to keep the unity and image of the team together), and the house of cards is shaking.

[PolePosition_1]

Maybe they should hand over the controls to M Schumacher, what is his role exactly with the Ferrari team?

According to reports in Germany it was Schumacher himself who suggested putting Kimi on wets!

And SD later refused to confirm or deny the reports.

[PolePosition_1]

At least Massa doesn't lie to the stewards, disgracing himself and showing himself to be morally corrupt in the process.

Mind you, he'd probably become a hero who was fighting a just war against the FIA in the eyes of some if he did.

How Schumacher fans who have defended his 2006, 1997 and 1994 actions, amongst others, then go on to lay into Hamilton like that is beyond me. It really is.

[Tazio]

According to reports in Germany it was Schumacher himself who suggested putting Kimi on wets!

And SD later refused to confirm or deny the reports.I've also read this! An inportant distinction here is if it's true
Kimi didn't throw his toys out of the pram, and go snivelling to the press about it.
Sounds to me that Ferrari, including Mike, and Kimi were in the mood to gamble.
Then rolled snake-eyes

[PolePosition_1]

Totally agree. Anybody who has Ron Dennis saying "nice" things about is way too soft. When Dennis says that, you know that he is really thinking "no threat".

Todt put the fear of God into Dennis....no way does Domencali do that to anybody.

Add to that, the drivers are apparently unable to kick up a big enough stink to over-rule any decision they think is crap or to force the team to change tack.

Mind you, when one would rather eat ice reams than put miles on the clock and the other one needs to be spoken to like he's a school girl, perhaps we shouldn't be surprised by a total lack of ruthlessness and a collapse into farce.

But don't you see the FOTA movement as positive? To be fair, Ferrari being part of the FOTA, is a large part of why its been so successful. And with todt there, I don't think it'd have been possible.

Sure its meant they've had to compromise their stance on certain issues I'm sure, but for F1 as a whole its positive - and thats what it should be.

How Schumacher fans who have defended his 2006, 1997 and 1994 actions, amongst others, then go on to lay into Hamilton like that is beyond me. It really is.

You'll have to forgive my lack of German language skills, but I don't recall a young Schumacher saying something like....

""I'm starting to notice that I'm becoming something of a role model," the McLaren driver said before today's first practice session for Sunday's French grand prix. "I'm starting to appreciate the importance of my actions, the way people perceive me and the image that I portray. Fortunately I don't have to change anything. I just have to make sure I'm on the right route."

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/143330.html

And, for what it's worth, although this is just opinion copyright of Tamburello, lying to get another driver penalised is much worse than an in-play 'foul'.

But don't you see the FOTA movement as positive? To be fair, Ferrari being part of the FOTA, is a large part of why its been so successful. And with todt there, I don't think it'd have been possible.

Sure its meant they've had to compromise their stance on certain issues I'm sure, but for F1 as a whole its positive - and thats what it should be.

No I don't see it as a positive, I see it as a weakness. It may be positive for the other teams to have the Ferrari sporting director popping in for a nice chat, but it serves Ferrari no purpose for what should be their one and only mission - beating the competition.

If the cost of compromising is losing, then it's a price that is far too high.

[PolePosition_1]

You'll have to forgive my lack of German language skills, but I don't recall a young Schumacher saying something like....

""I'm starting to notice that I'm becoming something of a role model," the McLaren driver said before today's first practice session for Sunday's French grand prix. "I'm starting to appreciate the importance of my actions, the way people perceive me and the image that I portray. Fortunately I don't have to change anything. I just have to make sure I'm on the right route."

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/143330.html

And, for what it's worth, although this is just opinion copyright of Tamburello, lying to get another driver penalised is much worse than an in-play 'foul'.


You don't think Schumacher acknowledged he was a role model for people?

The amount of road safety compaigns, acting as an ambassador for many good causes, you'd have to assume he acknowledges he is a role model, and him accepting to act as an ambassodor means he is aware of his status.

With regards to Hamilton's lying, there isn't too much to say, he lied. End of. He lied, despite all the circumstances surrounding this, he did lie, and he is at the end of the day responsible for his own actions.

But he and McLaren have been very transparent in how this came about, and from the interviews with Whitmarsh and Lewis, it does appearheartfelt, and sincere in their apologies.

But as I say, I don't see how a Schumacher fan can be so critical of Lewis, when Schumacher done exactly the same, but you somehow don't take same view of Schumacher.

[PolePosition_1]

No I don't see it as a positive, I see it as a weakness. It may be positive for the other teams to have the Ferrari sporting director popping in for a nice chat, but it serves Ferrari no purpose for what should be their one and only mission - beating the competition.

If the cost of compromising is losing, then it's a price that is far too high.

You'd rather see an unhealthy F1 (i.e. just 14 cars, no one wanting to sponsor F1, lack of viewers and media interest etc etc), but Ferrari winning, than a 22 car grid, where there is strong viewing figures, sponsors queuing up to give their money to have themselves associated and good exciting racing, but Ferrari not winning?

You don't think Schumacher acknowledged he was a role model for people?

Schumi was forced into being a Road Safety spokesman by the FIA after Jerez, and it was his missus who really pushed his UNICEF work, but -

"Winning streaks like this - that's the stuff heroes are made of. It's too bad Schumacher doesn't want to be one. His lips purse and narrow when the topic is raised. "I'm neither able nor willing to play this role," he says."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,359859,00.html

You'd rather see an unhealthy F1 (i.e. just 14 cars, no one wanting to sponsor F1, lack of viewers and media interest etc etc), but Ferrari winning, than a 22 car grid, where there is strong viewing figures, sponsors queuing up to give their money to have themselves associated and good exciting racing, but Ferrari not winning?

As a Tifosi, yes.

[PolePosition_1]

Schumi was forced into being a Road Safety spokesman by the FIA after Jerez, and it was his missus who really pushed his UNICEF work, but -

"Winning streaks like this - that's the stuff heroes are made of. It's too bad Schumacher doesn't want to be one. His lips purse and narrow when the topic is raised. "I'm neither able nor willing to play this role," he says."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,359859,00.html

Tamb, if we take that view then, Lewis isn't a liar, he was told to by his team.

I'm sorry, but both are grown adults, they're responsible for their own actions.

You can't have one rule to justify 'your' driver and another rule, which contradicts previous rule to justify slating the 'rival' driver.

And ref your stance on the FOTA - well I'm glad that we don't have more people like yourself with that stance in society, its a very selfish point of view.

[wedge]

You'll have to forgive my lack of German language skills, but I don't recall a young Schumacher saying something like....

""I'm starting to notice that I'm becoming something of a role model," the McLaren driver said before today's first practice session for Sunday's French grand prix. "I'm starting to appreciate the importance of my actions, the way people perceive me and the image that I portray. Fortunately I don't have to change anything. I just have to make sure I'm on the right route."

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/143330.html

And, for what it's worth, although this is just opinion copyright of Tamburello, lying to get another driver penalised is much worse than an in-play 'foul'.

At least Hamilton apologised in front of the whole world which is more that can be said of Schumacher. After 1997 and 2006 incidents he insisted on his innocence when he was blatantly guilty.

[Knock-on]

At least Hamilton apologised in front of the whole world which is more that can be said of Schumacher. After 1997 and 2006 incidents he insisted on his innocence when he was blatantly guilty.

I do find this strange coming from some quarters.

What Lewis did was wrong, pure and simple. I have no defence for him and applaud the FIA for DQing him. It was a lousy, stupid thing to do in an otherwise distinguished career up to now.

However, he did it, was burned, apologised and hopefully we will never get anything like this again.

Schumacher took out Hill, JV, parked at Monoco etc and was punished for two of these blatent cheats yet never admitted it yet a few people who are slamming Lewis still defend MS :confused:

Both drivers were 100% wrong in my opinion but by saying so makes me a Lewis Fanboy and Ferrari hater :laugh:

You have to love the hypocrisy of some peoples logic :D

Tamb, if we take that view then, Lewis isn't a liar, he was told to by his team.

I'm sorry, but both are grown adults, they're responsible for their own actions.

You can't have one rule to justify 'your' driver and another rule, which contradicts previous rule to justify slating the 'rival' driver.


Where do I say that Schumacher isn't responsible for his own actions? I stated that he hadn't put himself up as being a role-model and has openly stated that he isn't. Unlike another disgraced WDC.



And ref your stance on the FOTA - well I'm glad that we don't have more people like yourself with that stance in society, its a very selfish point of view.

But it's not society we are talking about...it's winning in F1.

At least Hamilton apologised in front of the whole world which is more that can be said of Schumacher. After 1997 and 2006 incidents he insisted on his innocence when he was blatantly guilty.

At least Schumacher never tried to deflect the shyte thrown at him by blaming it on somebody else.

[SGWilko]

Schumi was forced into being a Road Safety spokesman by the FIA after Jerez, and it was his missus who really pushed his UNICEF work, but -

Under the thumb or what..... ;)

[ioan]

According to reports in Germany it was Schumacher himself who suggested putting Kimi on wets!

And SD later refused to confirm or deny the reports.

FGS, not this stupidity again.

[SGWilko]

FGS, not this stupidity again.

I reckon it was 'her indoors' pulling on his strings made him do it.......

[ioan]

Schumacher took out Hill, JV, parked at Monoco etc and was punished for two of these blatent cheats yet never admitted it yet a few people who are slamming Lewis still defend MS :confused:

MS did acknowledge it after Jerez, you are conveniently ignoring it.

[ArrowsFA1]

FGS, not this stupidity again.
Well Ferrari do see Michael as a role model (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/54455) so perhaps it's not as far fetched as you think :p

[SGWilko]

MS did acknowledge it after Jerez, you are conveniently ignoring it.

FGS, not this nonesense again.

[ioan]

Well Ferrari do see Michael as a role model (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/54455) so perhaps it's not as far fetched as you think :p

Well, in that case they better fire all the muppets from the pit wall and keep only MS, I doubt it will be any worse than it is now, dead last with no points.

[ioan]

FGS, not this nonesense again.

Sorry mum, I was just getting thing straightened out, after Knockie's mix.

Schumacher took out Hill, JV, parked at Monoco etc and was punished for two of these blatent cheats yet never admitted it yet a few people who are slamming Lewis still defend MS :confused:

According to James Allen's book "The Edge of Greatness", Schumacher was quite bemused at the furore his actions caused, believing that it was an acceptable thing to have done.

It wasn't.

But if he couldn't understand why it wasn't, any apology would not have been heartfelt and, to Schumi's logic, pointless.

So would you have liked an insincere apology? That would be worthless? How would that help?

Well Ferrari do see Michael as a role model (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/54455) so perhaps it's not as far fetched as you think :p

The specific quote -

"a role model not only at the wheel, but also in his professional approach"

No mention of being a role model to kids. Just to the team he worked for.

Big difference.

MS did acknowledge it after Jerez, you are conveniently ignoring it.

But only after Luca telephoned him with the words "what have you done?"

Now, it's all down to personal tastes, but I have more admiration for somebody who cannot understand why they should apologise than for somebody who thinks an apology makes amends...but, that's just me.

So would it have been better if Hamilton had not apologised? If he had have said 'no comment' in the Maylaysia press conference, would he have got more respect?



Now, it's all down to personal tastes, but I have more admiration for somebody who cannot understand why they should apologise than for somebody who thinks an apology makes amends...but, that's just me.

Yes....and I can't apologise for it.

[ioan]

But only after Luca telephoned him with the words "what have you done?"

Now, it's all down to personal tastes, but I have more admiration for somebody who cannot understand why they should apologise than for somebody who thinks an apology makes amends...but, that's just me.

IMO very few apologies are worth something, most of them will never repair the damage that had been done.

In that case Lewis should have kept his mouth shut in public and apologised to his team as the damage has been done to their image rather than anybody else. In contrast to that the FIA have acknowledged his apology and said they appreciate Lewis accepting responsibility for his actions??? I'm struggling to see the logic here :confused:

It's called "Saving Your Own Ass".

It's what people with no backbone do when the shyte hits the fan.

[wedge]

At least Schumacher never tried to deflect the shyte thrown at him by blaming it on somebody else.

In 2006 Schumacher blamed it on the car when when telemetry data analysed by the stewards proved otherwise: he deliberately stalled the car and yet he still pleaded innocence.

[PolePosition_1]

Where do I say that Schumacher isn't responsible for his own actions? I stated that he hadn't put himself up as being a role-model and has openly stated that he isn't. Unlike another disgraced WDC.



But it's not society we are talking about...it's winning in F1.

He's an ambassador in road safety. Somewhere along the lines you accept this. Its not forced upon him.

Surely you can see winning in a competitive series is better than winning in a series which no one cares for?

In same way I'm sure a company would rather be associated with a successful series than a county series.

[PolePosition_1]

At least Schumacher never tried to deflect the shyte thrown at him by blaming it on somebody else.

Surely admitting fault, and explaining the circumstances is better than not admitting fault full stop?

[AndyL]

This question of Lewis's apology - I would draw a parallel to the case of Dwayne Chambers. For those who don't know, Chambers is a British 100 metre runner who was banned for taking steroids. Since returning from his ban he has become the top British sprinter but has been vilified by some sections of the media, who complained loudly about him being selected to represent GB in international competitions. Meanwhile, other athletes who had also served bans for steroid abuse represented Britain in those same competitions without any adverse comment. The difference between those other athletes and Chambers? They persisted in claiming their innocence even after getting caught, and it seems as a result they always get the benefit of the doubt. Chambers, on the other hand, held his hands up and said, "Yes I did it, I was wrong and I'm sorry."

If you make a bad choice and do something wrong, most people will tell you that the moral thing to do is to man up and apologise. In practice, however, the smart choice is probably to keep your mouth shut and call your lawyer :(

[Tazio]

So would it have been better if Hamilton had not apologised? If he had have said 'no comment' in the Maylaysia press conference, would he have got more respect?Hamilton’s apology was so calculated, and half hearted it was merely damage control.
Anyone who tells you differently is trying to sell you something!

[Tazio]

If it was half hearted then he is a jolly good actor, but yes it was damage limitation because it was the right thing to do. You do something wrong you apologise simple as that. He was expected to apologise by the media and the fans and he stepped up to the plate. It took alot of balls to commit to something like as apposed to denying it out of pure arrogance? Surely...B.S.

[jens]

This thread starts reminding me pot and kettle.

[Tazio]

If it was half hearted then he is a jolly good actor, but yes it was damage limitation because it was the right thing to do. You do something wrong you apologise simple as that. He was expected to apologise by the media and the fans and he stepped up to the plate. It took alot of balls to commit to something like as apposed to denying it out of pure arrogance? Surely...
Well denial is easier than arguing your point I suppose LOL


I'll let The Bard "Champion" my cause
:rotflmao:

"He hath given his empire
Up to a whore."

Antony and Cleopatra (III, vi, 66-67)



Heaven is my judge, not I for love and duty,
But seeming so, for my peculiar end;
For when my outward action doth demonstrate
The native act and figure of my heart
In complement extern, 'tis not long after
But I will wear my heart upon my sleeve
For daws to peck at. I am not what I am

Othello Act 1, scene 1, 56–65


O, what a noble mind is here o'erthrown!
The courtier's, soldier's, scholar's, eye, tongue, sword,
Th' expectation and rose of the fair state,
The glass of fashion and the mould of form,
Th' observ'd of all observers, quite, quite down!


Hamlet, Act 3, scene 1, 150–154

[wmcot]

I've got the solution for Ferrari's problems. Hire a crew member with a set of binoculars to watch what Brawn do and then copy that! Simple!

[SGWilko]

LOL love the quote, although I think a quote from Othello quoting Iago (FIA) would have been most suitable ;) . And on that note I think we have come to the end of our journey my friends... Some agree, some don't, and neither party will change their minds so a stalemate has been produced as a result.


' Taxi - New thread subject please' :p

'Alas, poor Davy Ryan, we knew him so well'

[SGWilko]

I've got the solution for Ferrari's problems. Hire a crew member with a set of binoculars to watch what Brawn do and then copy that! Simple!

Best leave instructions on which way round they go..... :laugh:

[Ghostwalker]

according to http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/motor/formel1/article4852627.ab Ferrari had a crisis meeting yesterday.

[555-04Q2]

Best leave instructions on which way round they go..... :laugh:

:laugh: Thats pretty funny :up:

[Tazio]

"Let Hercules himself do what he may,
the cat will mew and dog will have its day",

Hamlet Act 5 scene 1

Translation:

Put Mike on the pit wall,
Kube, and Fred in seats!

[SGWilko]

"Let Hercules himself do what he may,
the cat will mew and dog will have its day",

Hamlet Act 5 scene 1

Translation:

Put Mike on the pit wall,
Kube, and Fred in seats!

Don't care much for a strangers touch, but you can't hold your man....

D. Henley

[Tazio]

Been trying to get down to the heart of the matter!

D. Hendley ;)

[SGWilko]

Been trying to get down to the heart of the matter!

D. Hendley ;)

I thought that was Wasted Time...

But, to quote from your tune.... most apt for D Ryan...

'I got the call today that I didn't want to hear...'

or, for Lewy...

'I think it's about forgiveness, forgiveness - even if you don't love me anymore' ;)

[SGWilko]

I thought that was Wasted Time...

But, to quote from your tune.... most apt for D Ryan...

'I got the call today that I didn't want to hear...'

or, for Lewy...

'I think it's about forgiveness, forgiveness - even if you don't love me anymore' ;)

Or perhaps, McLarens lyric would be...

'And that's the danger in pretending, trying to defend yourself from someone elses war....'
J Walsh

[Tazio]

I thought that was Wasted Time...

But, to quote from your tune.... most apt for D Ryan...

'I got the call today that I didn't want to hear...'

or, for Lewy...

'I think it's about forgiveness, forgiveness - even if you don't love me anymore' ;) I like your taste in lyrical Rock :up:

If dirt were dollars, we'd all be in the black! ;)

[Somebody]

Kimi blames those evil diffusers: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74353

[F1boat]

Kimi blames those evil diffusers: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74353

How manly...

[SGWilko]

At least we now know Kimi didn't just park the car.....

[wmcot]

Best leave instructions on which way round they go..... :laugh:

Good one! I didn't think about that part.

[Dzeidzei]

I think this is good decision, especially is Schumi was the one calling the strategic shots.

It seems that even though youre a great driver that doesnt make you a strategist.

Makes me miss RB even more.

[markabilly]

I know someone who just popped up on the market and who ferrari might want to look at asap!!

a guy named Ryan....

[Tazio]

I know someone who just popped up on the market and who ferrari might want to look at asap!!

a guy named Ryan....
Yea'! And the Italians could refer to him as "'il Liene" :laugh:

[markabilly]

I think this is good decision, especially is Schumi was the one calling the strategic shots.

It seems that even though youre a great driver that doesnt make you a strategist.

Makes me miss RB even more.
so they say as to who called shots, me i think "fall guy"....but there was a team called Todt, Brawn and MS who called shots, and it was not just todt, or just brawn or just MS in those days

[wmcot]

I think this is good decision, especially is Schumi was the one calling the strategic shots.


Has that ever been verified?

[ioan]

Has that ever been verified?

No, but Schumi basher's maths says that 1+1=11! ;)

[wmcot]

No, but Schumi basher's maths says that 1+1=11! ;)

They can do math? I thought they hated math, too! :)

[ioan]

They can do math? I thought they hated math, too! :)

That explains why they get it so wrong! ;)

[SGWilko]

Math? Have we suddenly been Americanised? Euch!!

It is Maths, don't you know, an abbreviation of the term mathematics.

If I really wanted to 'go American' I'd start watching trash like Friends.

Next, we'll all be, like, using the word like in all sorts of, like, inappropriate places...... ;)

[wedge]

Lucas Baldersseri has taken the flack and Chris Dyer will now call strategy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7997295.stm

[ioan]

Lucas Baldersseri has taken the flack and Chris Dyer will now call strategy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7997295.stm

Lucas who?!

You mean this guy:
http://forums.motorsport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132644

[CNR]

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/08/1046826565731.html


Schumacher's back seat driver
March 9 2003


http://www.theage.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1046826568307_2003/03/08/09200schuvc,0.jpg Picture: VINCE CALIGIURI
Michael Schumacher is deep in conversation yesterday with engineer Chris Dyer, right.

Bendigo engineer Chris Dyer is one of the reasons why the formula one rules were changed this season, writes Greg Baum.

Michael Schumacher is in the driving seat at Ferrari, of course, but sitting in the formula one equivalent of the back seat is bespectacled Chris Dyer, an erstwhile motorcycle enthusiast from Lockwood, via Bendigo.
Dyer is at the start of his third season as Schumacher's engineer, which means not only that he oversees the set-up of "hundreds and hundreds and hundreds" of variables for the famous Ferrari for each race, but from his station on the pit wall, via the miracle of telemetry, continues to tinker with and tune the car even while Schumacher is racing it at 300 kmh. Schumacher steers, Dyer and his team do the rest.
In fact, by the end of last year, Dyer and his brother boffins had become more hands-on than the FIA and its supremos Bernie Ecclestone and Max Mosley could stand, and the rules revolution that will be ushered in at Albert Park today is in part an attempt to return control of F1 cars to their drivers, and with it, a bit of human caprice and fallibility.
"My background is a lot of the things Max wants to get rid of," Dyer said. "I wouldn't say I personally developed any of them, but I was involved with developing all of them." He once said he was in charge of Schumacher's "toys". Now Mosley is throwing them out of the cot.
Not unnaturally, Dyer saw this as regressive. A driver such as Schumacher, he said, immersed himself in the engineers' work anyway, making sure that he understood what all the devices did, and contributed voluminously himself. Dyer saw that as part of the modern driver's necessary skills.

But he acknowledged that on this issue, he was wearing blinkers as well as ear-muffs. "You look at the rule changes, and as an engineer they're disappointing, because we have less tools to tune the car with, and we're always working towards optimising the performance of the car," he said. "The more tools we have, the more we can optimise that performance. But, unfortunately, formula one is not put on for the benefit of us engineers to enjoy ourselves. While on a personal level it's a disappointing thing to see these things gone, if at the end of the day that helps the sport, we have to accept it."
Dyer did not grow up revering formula one and Ferrari, and thinks that helps him keep a sense of proportion now he is alongside one of the titans of world sport. His previous job was with Arrows, a perennial F1 struggler, and he is honest to say that he did not suddenly become a world-beating engineer as he made the unlikely journey from one end of pit lane to the other.
"It's not always your results on the track that count. Obviously the car is a big part of it," he said. "It probably seems strange to people that I went from Arrows to Ferrari, but to be honest, in the work I do the job is very similar. The success of Ferrari comes for me because I've got better tools to work with. The car is better, and in Michael we have the best driver. But I don't think I work any harder than when I was at Arrows and we were struggling to score a point."
The way Dyer describes his work, it is a wonder that Schumacher's Ferrari does not come out carrying a sticker on its windshield saying: "Next service 100,000km." But a country boy is not allowed airs, graces, conceits or affectations. Wayne Dyer raced motorcycles in the Victorian bush, and they were his son's first motoring love. "We always had motor bikes around the house. I grew up riding motor bikes," he said. "When I went to university, there wasn't a very big motorcycle industry in Australia, so I ended up in cars."
He worked for Holden Racing Team, then through the Tom Walkinshaw connection joined Arrows in England. Minor legend has it that he was head-hunted by Ferrari, but he admits that it was he who did the hunting. "You see people in the paddock, you see people in the pit lane, you let them know you're looking for something," he said.

[veeten]

well, after this weekend's proceedings it's official...

the F60 is 'rolling frustration' in action...

[veeten]

and now, for more continuing conflaguration, I return this thread.

Let's face it, the 'red' on the cars is more of a symbol of where this team is headed... to HELL in a handbasket. :eek:

discuss, or rant, if you need to.

[christophulus]

I really thought they'd turned the corner this weekend but yet more strategic mess. I'm sure they weren't this bad last year were they?

At least the car's got faster, if not more reliable.

[mstillhere]

I really thought they'd turned the corner this weekend but yet more strategic mess. I'm sure they weren't this bad last year were they?

At least the car's got faster, if not more reliable.

Not they were not but only because they did not have enough time. This year by working night and day are being able to really show how NOT to run a F1 team. What I reallly find mesmorizing is teh nature of their mistakes. They are so STUPID that any one of us, and I am not kidding, would be able to do a much better job.

I think was one of the first (Ioan as well) to point that out right after teh 1st GP. And sadly enough Ferrari have not proved us wrong (what a privilige :( ..)

McLaren seems to be in the same situation as Ferrari,( in terms of results not stupidity). I think they are already working on a new car for next year and I would hope Ferrari too after today's 1000th harakiri.

My problem is: in order to come up with a winning car for next year the same people who enginnered this year's car should NOT be involved. They need to go (they had two years to prove themselves) and be replaced with some new people (plenty o unemployed people right now) who would actually LEARN from their mistakes NOT REPEATING them (that's why I know they are a bunch of idiots).

If they were to be involved again, well....we all know what the results WILL be.

FERRARI = R.I.P.

[wedge]

I take a bit back of what I said earlier as they've been working on a new package ie. lighter car than aero bits and pieces.

Could keep up with Brawn easily without KERS IMO. Just need to build up the momentum with car development.

Strategy call is a bit harsh. Massa was doing his job by fighting hard against Vettel for the whole race. Being on the margins was inevitable.

[mstillhere]

I take a bit back of what I said earlier as they've been working on a new package ie. lighter car than aero bits and pieces.

Could keep up with Brawn easily without KERS IMO. Just need to build up the momentum with car development.

Strategy call is a bit harsh. Massa was doing his job by fighting hard against Vettel for the whole race. Being on the margins was inevitable.

Winning in Spain was their last chance. After this they can do us all and above all themselves a big favor and stop racing for the rest of the year so that their self humiliation would stop. The whole world is laughing AT them.

And do you guys know what bothers me the most? Despite the repeated mistakes I don't see what common sense would demand: a frigging shake up in their organization. NOTHING!!! This inaction really leaves me speechless. They are like the Titanic, heading towards the iceberg, hit it and still are frozen in their reaction.
(I know that dominicali was reassigned, but OBVIOUSLY that is not enough).

[wedge]

The whole world is laughing AT them.

If you're feeling pessimistic then yes but was only laughing half heartedly if you're a realist.

Kimi was a joke on Saturday but he had a solid drive in Bahrain. Massa was immense at the weekend IMHO.

It's like McLaren and Williams in 2004: Ferrari should carry on and fight for race wins regardless.

[mstillhere]

If you're feeling pessimistic then yes but was only laughing half heartedly if you're a realist.

Kimi was a joke on Saturday but he had a solid drive in Bahrain. Massa was immense at the weekend IMHO.

It's like McLaren and Williams in 2004: Ferrari should carry on and fight for race wins regardless.

Their successes are too spotty. Too discontinue. They need a major overhaul of their quality control dept. or whatever they call it. Have their races carefully, and I mean carefully, planed out. They need to eliminate those individuals who show no interest in learning, and th list goes on for pages. It was interesting to hear FErrari's manager saying: "these results are not of a team like Ferrari". That to me sounds very arrogant. He has nothing to do with that Ferrari. He, nd his friends, actually are working really hard in destroiyng in a couple of years what others achieved through REAL hard work and effort. Againg the size of their stupity is only second to Jupitter.

[jas123f1]

Their successes are too spotty. Too discontinue. They need a major overhaul of their quality control dept. or whatever they call it. Have their races carefully, and I mean carefully, planed out. They need to eliminate those individuals who show no interest in learning, and th list goes on for pages. It was interesting to hear FErrari's manager saying: "these results are not of a team like Ferrari". That to me sounds very arrogant. He has nothing to do with that Ferrari. He, nd his friends, actually are working really hard in destroiyng in a couple of years what others achieved through REAL hard work and effort. Againg the size of their stupity is only second to Jupitter.

Yes - something is totally wrong in the team - maybe there are some who has been engaged more in some kind of “politics” instead of racing and the team.

The question is - are all people working for Ferrari or only their favourites. I think it’s time to go back to basic and racing - stop all "we are best" thinking and start to work.
There are 2 excellent drivers and it's time to give then a fair chance.. Send Schumi HOME – his only making it worse.. His time is over – it was great but it’s over. That part-time work is not good for the team .. take over or go home..

[markabilly]

Not they were not but only because they did not have enough time. This year by working night and day are being able to really show how NOT to run a F1 team. What I reallly find mesmorizing is teh nature of their mistakes. They are so STUPID that any one of us, and I am not kidding, would be able to do a much better job.

.............
If they were to be involved again, well....we all know what the results WILL be.

FERRARI = R.I.P.
Yes it seems that they rely too much on alleged expertise rather than common sense of simple folks who as in Qing (you would have thought they had learned their lesson from the last race with Massa) are aware that something ain't over until it is over....
The definiton of an idiot is someone who keeps repeating the same thing over and over, but expecting different results... :vader:

[mstillhere]

The definiton of an idiot is someone who keeps repeating the same thing over and over, but expecting different results... :vader:

That's exactely what I had in mind :)

[mstillhere]

well, it lloks like things are starting changing: http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090511193219.shtml or at least the subject is circulating.

My question is, say Domenicali were to be fired, who could replace him? Obviously Todt or MS would not be in the calling list or would they?
I personally beleive they need to stay out of it.

[555-04Q2]

well, it lloks like things are starting changing: http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090511193219.shtml or at least the subject is circulating.

My question is, say Domenicali were to be fired, who could replace him? Obviously Todt or MS would not be in the calling list or would they?
I personally beleive they need to stay out of it.

I dont want MS to become a team boss. I dont think he is the man for the job. Maybe a role as a driver advisor, coach, strategist etc, but not a team principal.

[ArrowsFA1]

well, it lloks like things are starting changing: http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090511193219.shtml or at least the subject is circulating.
Not sure it's so much Dominicali's position, but Ferrari's as a whole, that should be concerning Ferrari and F1 fans.



Ferrari's board of directors will discuss the Italian squad's future in Formula 1 tomorrow, the team announced on Monday.
Amid growing tension between the teams and the FIA over the introduction of a budget cap for 2010, Ferrari said in a statement on Monday its board will analyse the current situation and its future involvement in F1.
Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo and FIA president Max Mosley have been at loggerheads over the introduction of the budget cap, which the Italian reckons could damage the sport.
Mosley said earlier this month that Formula 1 could survive without Ferrari, the only team who has competed in every championship since 1950.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75263

[555-04Q2]

Not sure it's so much Dominicali's position, but Ferrari's as a whole, that should be concerning Ferrari and F1 fans.

It is. BIG TIME.

[F1boat]

I think that they should hire Mike Gascoine and and Ascanelli from STR...

[DexDexter]

I think that they should hire Mike Gascoine and and Ascanelli from STR...

I would hire Gerhard Berger as team principal/manager, did pretty well at Toro Rosso and knows the culture at Ferrari.