Mclaren May Face WMSC - Latest

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74214

[Garry Walker]

:up: :up: :up: :up: :up: Lets hope for a justified punishment - a ban for two races and some financial sanctions.

[TL]

why not ban them for the whole season ?..also declare them diffusers as illegal and ban those 6 cars 2 ?...12 car start grid left..woot woot...or in case the diffusers are legal...ban the teams that protested about it...reason --> falsy accusing other teams for driving illegal cars ! *rolling eyes*

[ioan]

why not ban them for the whole season ?..also declare them diffusers as illegal and ban those 6 cars 2 ?...12 car start grid left..woot woot...or in case the diffusers are legal...ban the teams that protested about it...reason --> falsy accusing other teams for driving illegal cars ! *rolling eyes*

:rolleyes:

[Sonic]

:rolleyes:

Quite.

[THE_LIBERATOR]

I would expect no more than a race ban, given that is what teams & individuals who have lied at steward's enquires before have recieved.

Then again it appears we are not even allowed to mention previous incidents of the same nature or threads will be closed.

[ioan]

I would expect no more than a race ban, given that is what teams & individuals who have lied at steward's enquires before have recieved.

Then again it appears we are not even allowed to mention previous incidents of the same nature or threads will be closed.

I didn't see anyone mention the 2005 Honda episode yet, there was lying involved and they got a 2 race ban.
Still everyone is trying to find a case of Ferrari or Schumacher lying or farting or even daring to breath. This is quite telling for me.

[THE_LIBERATOR]

I didn't see anyone mention the 2005 Honda episode yet, there was lying involved and they got a 2 race ban.
Still everyone is trying to find a case of Ferrari or Schumacher lying or farting or even daring to breath. This is quite telling for me.You seem happy to call anyone who defends Hamilton deluded & yet I see a massive double standard coming from you. However you are quite right regarding Honda.

[Hondo]

I didn't see anyone mention the 2005 Honda episode yet, there was lying involved and they got a 2 race ban.
Still everyone is trying to find a case of Ferrari or Schumacher lying or farting or even daring to breath. This is quite telling for me.

Funny you bring this up. I've been thinking about the 2005 Honda deal since this whole thing has come up. My opinion:

Best as I remember, Honda's fuel tank wasn't illegal. They got their suspension for telling the stewards that all fuel had been removed from the car, when in fact, there was still fuel in the second tank. They were less than truthful, got caught, and paid the price.

I think the stewards did a good job of reopening the investigation as new information came to light. Toyota couldn't, by the rules, appeal their penalty. We have time after the races to sit back and watch the interviews and post-race commentaries. The teams, stewards and officials are all busy after the race with other duties and don't have time to sit around watching interviews. In this case they relied upon the teams to tell them honestly about the events that occurred from each point of view. That's what they used to make their decision. I don't know how quickly they can get access to other information. It is to their credit that when they became aware of it, they corrected the injustice done to Jarno. For all our complaining about the stewards, now they come back to ensure a fair and deserved decision...and we complain some more. My hat is off to the stewards, you guys did good!

McLaren is lucky to have gotten off as lightly as it has, so far. I'm sure the stewards deeply resent McLaren making them appear incompetent.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I didn't see anyone mention the 2005 Honda episode yet, there was lying involved and they got a 2 race ban.
Still everyone is trying to find a case of Ferrari or Schumacher lying or farting or even daring to breath. This is quite telling for me.

cut it off ioan :mad: keep them out of it - MS has retired 3 decades AGO ffs !!!

[Bagwan]

Funny you bring this up. I've been thinking about the 2005 Honda deal since this whole thing has come up. My opinion:

Best as I remember, Honda's fuel tank wasn't illegal. They got their suspension for telling the stewards that all fuel had been removed from the car, when in fact, there was still fuel in the second tank. They were less than truthful, got caught, and paid the price.

I think the stewards did a good job of reopening the investigation as new information came to light. Toyota couldn't, by the rules, appeal their penalty. We have time after the races to sit back and watch the interviews and post-race commentaries. The teams, stewards and officials are all busy after the race with other duties and don't have time to sit around watching interviews. In this case they relied upon the teams to tell them honestly about the events that occurred from each point of view. That's what they used to make their decision. I don't know how quickly they can get access to other information. It is to their credit that when they became aware of it, they corrected the injustice done to Jarno. For all our complaining about the stewards, now they come back to ensure a fair and deserved decision...and we complain some more. My hat is off to the stewards, you guys did good!

McLaren is lucky to have gotten off as lightly as it has, so far. I'm sure the stewards deeply resent McLaren making them appear incompetent.

Well said , Fiero .

[Tazio]

Funny you bring this up. I've been thinking about the 2005 Honda deal since this whole thing has come up. My opinion:

Best as I remember, Honda's fuel tank wasn't illegal. They got their suspension for telling the stewards that all fuel had been removed from the car, when in fact, there was still fuel in the second tank. They were less than truthful, got caught, and paid the price.

I think the stewards did a good job of reopening the investigation as new information came to light. Toyota couldn't, by the rules, appeal their penalty. We have time after the races to sit back and watch the interviews and post-race commentaries. The teams, stewards and officials are all busy after the race with other duties and don't have time to sit around watching interviews. In this case they relied upon the teams to tell them honestly about the events that occurred from each point of view. That's what they used to make their decision. I don't know how quickly they can get access to other information. It is to their credit that when they became aware of it, they corrected the injustice done to Jarno. For all our complaining about the stewards, now they come back to ensure a fair and deserved decision...and we complain some more. My hat is off to the stewards, you guys did good!

McLaren is lucky to have gotten off as lightly as it has, so far. I'm sure the stewards deeply resent McLaren making them appear incompetent.

Bottom line :up:

[F1boat]

why not ban them for the whole season ?..also declare them diffusers as illegal and ban those 6 cars 2 ?...12 car start grid left..woot woot...or in case the diffusers are legal...ban the teams that protested about it...reason --> falsy accusing other teams for driving illegal cars ! *rolling eyes*

Great idea! So these 8 cars will go to ALMS and revive the series. instead wasting time in the porn 1 series. :)

[mstillhere]

Well said , Fiero .

I second that

[mstillhere]

Funny you bring this up. I've been thinking about the 2005 Honda deal since this whole thing has come up. My opinion:

Best as I remember, Honda's fuel tank wasn't illegal. They got their suspension for telling the stewards that all fuel had been removed from the car, when in fact, there was still fuel in the second tank. They were less than truthful, got caught, and paid the price.

I think the stewards did a good job of reopening the investigation as new information came to light. Toyota couldn't, by the rules, appeal their penalty. We have time after the races to sit back and watch the interviews and post-race commentaries. The teams, stewards and officials are all busy after the race with other duties and don't have time to sit around watching interviews. In this case they relied upon the teams to tell them honestly about the events that occurred from each point of view. That's what they used to make their decision. I don't know how quickly they can get access to other information. It is to their credit that when they became aware of it, they corrected the injustice done to Jarno. For all our complaining about the stewards, now they come back to ensure a fair and deserved decision...and we complain some more. My hat is off to the stewards, you guys did good!

McLaren is lucky to have gotten off as lightly as it has, so far. I'm sure the stewards deeply resent McLaren making them appear incompetent.

....and that too

[dj_bytedisaster]

as I said before, McLaren shoudn't be outcast, but it'd help a lot if their fans told 'em "you screwed up people,sort that out!" only can help the sport.

[PSfan]

cut it off ioan :mad: keep them out of it - MS has retired 3 decades AGO ffs !!!


Thanks, now I'm really feeling old... it only seems like a couple years ago that MS retired... I hadn't realised it been 30 years!!! I guess I'm lucky that I don't look like a man in his 60s, but I would sure like to know where the last 20 years have gone!!!


Anyway, back to the topic, I was sure part of the spygate fine included a probationary term, however I'm not sure if this only relates to just having Ferrari intelectual property showing up on a McLeran, or if it covers more then that. Should Spygate influence this case, McLeran could be out for a season or two...

[Triumph]

I don't think that there will be any race bans.

From the BBC F1 site:

'The FIA has hinted Hamilton could now be in the clear over the incident but warned that McLaren may face further sanction.
"We recognise Lewis's efforts to set the record straight," said an FIA spokesman. "It would appear he was put in an impossible position.'

That all looks quite promising.

[Bagwan]

I like that line "It would appear..." .

He could have just said "He was put in an impossible position ."

To some it "looks quite promising" .

To me , it looks like they feel they need to put "It would appear" , in front of anything he says .
They recognize his efforts to set the record straight , after recognizing that it was he and Patsy Ryan that bent it in the first place .

Another thing , to keep things in perspective , is that Patsy wasn't fired . He was suspended .
Whitmarsh said he had to do it .
35 years , and he finally gets a holiday .

[Somebody]

I don't think that there will be any race bans.

From the BBC F1 site:

'The FIA has hinted Hamilton could now be in the clear over the incident but warned that McLaren may face further sanction.
"We recognise Lewis's efforts to set the record straight," said an FIA spokesman. "It would appear he was put in an impossible position.'

That all looks quite promising.

Uh, that's a Reuters report they're quoting, from http://uk.reuters.com/article/formulaOneNews/idUKIndia-38872120090403?sp=true

Here's the last two lines of that report:

The FIA made clear that further action could still be taken against the team for allegedly bringing the sport into disrepute.

"We cannot rule out the matter being referred to the world motor sport council at this stage," the spokesman said.

[Daniel]

I don't think that there will be any race bans.

From the BBC F1 site:

'The FIA has hinted Hamilton could now be in the clear over the incident but warned that McLaren may face further sanction.
"We recognise Lewis's efforts to set the record straight," said an FIA spokesman. "It would appear he was put in an impossible position.'

That all looks quite promising.
Translation for those who are hard of understanding.

It would appear that Bernie has stepped in and warned that if the stewards ban his cash cow he'll chuck a strop and stop the flow of whip wielding women to Max.

or

It would appear that McLaren asked Lewis to lie and being the win at all costs type he obliged because he doesn't mind lying but he's no liar.... honest!!!!

I love this story

"I'm not a liar" :mark:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7980593.stm
Which is quite funny because there is documented evidence of him lying :confused: Just admit what you did Lewis and be done with it and we can forget this silly little incident and go back to appreciating your talent....

You can't criticise Hamilton for driving skill, he really is up there at the top for sure but he has this pigheaded belief that everything he does is right and it's beginning to alienate some of his fans. If you look at all the incidents over the last couple of years there's been one common theme and that is that Lewis has never held his hands up and categorically said "I did wrong" and admitted full responsibility. He could well learn a lesson from Vettel who took responsibility for what he did and apologised for it. Sure some people don't agree that Vettel should have done it but in 20 years time when Vettel has retired he won't have the smudge on his record of being someone who couldn't admit that he'd made a mistake. If Vettel never wins another race or a title he'll still be regarded as being a great driver and a nice guy.

I saw this weird pigheaded self belief a long time ago, I just wish other people had seen it then and wish that some people would open their eyes and see it now.

[Valve Bounce]

I didn't see anyone mention the 2005 Honda episode yet, there was lying involved and they got a 2 race ban.
Still everyone is trying to find a case of Ferrari or Schumacher lying or farting or even daring to breath. This is quite telling for me.

ioan, this case is different. The Honda case involved a deliberate cheating device in the car as well as lying about it. I was surprised that Honda got away so lightly.

In this case, it was not a car fault, nor a McLaren fault; it was the fault of the driver and his chief mechanic trying to lie to gain a point in the championship - that was the stupid part about it. I felt that Had Hamilton told the truth, and Jarno told his story (the truth at all times), there would have been a good case of their positions being reversed in the finish. Either way, that was not that great a gain or loss.

This case is sad because two years ago, I admired the achievements of this rookie Lewis Hamilton who was able to race on equal terms with twice WDC Alonso, the driver who I admired most in F1. However, their shenanigans left a very bad taste in my mouth. And now this lying - I don't care how many times Lewis apologised, and looked so genuine. You should have seen me when I broke my Mum's crystal bowl - Heck, I almost escaped a spanking. :(

For Lewis to escape any punishment would be the work of the devil himself : Bernie, as it would further affect the fight for this year's WDC. I firmly believe that Lewis Hamilton should be punished, and not McLaren in this case. I reckon both these two terds blindsided Martin Whitmarsh, who defended these two liars despite the interview Hamilton gave after the race and the radio communications. I know you don't, but in this case I do believe Whitmarsh.

But how can Lewis Hamilton be punished and not affect Bernies quest for a hard fought WDC and more viewers? I would recommend giving Lewis Hamilton a large plastic bin bag and make him pick up dog poo around the race circuit complexes for the next 3 races. Let the punishment fit the crime. After the third bag of dog poo, he'll think twice before lying again.

[Valve Bounce]

Best as I remember, Honda's fuel tank wasn't illegal. They got their suspension for telling the stewards that all fuel had been removed from the car, when in fact, there was still fuel in the second tank. They were less than truthful, got caught, and paid the price.

.

Not so. The clever device in the fuel tank meant that bunsen could benefit during quals and the first two stints in the race (assuming there are three stints) on a lighter fuel load and thereby gain an illegal advantage over their opponents. I remember seeing a sketch of this clever fuel scavenge and return device which was ingenious. Oh yes!! and they also lied when asked if there was any fuel left in the tank and they said "NO!. Well, that didn't help either. So they were penalised on the two counts, even though it could not be proven that bunsen was running light during quals and
part of the race. So Yeah!! you could be right in that they were only found guilty of lying. But the penalty given would have been swayed by that tricky tank device.

[jjanicke]

Clearly Mclaren did wrong. They've taken the penalty and this thread? Seems like we're in a witch hunt.

There have been plenty of less than honest incidents before with barely any fanfare, let alone race disqualifications.

I hope the FIA recognize justice has been served and move on.

F1 is becoming too much drama to watch.

1st Vettel getting penalized for a fncking racing incident, and now this soap opera. Before you know it these great 2009 new rules will drown in no one passing in order to avoid penalties.


ioan, this case is different. The Honda case involved a deliberate cheating device in the car as well as lying about it. I was surprised that Honda got away so lightly.

In this case, it was not a car fault, nor a McLaren fault; it was the fault of the driver and his chief mechanic trying to lie to gain a point in the championship - that was the stupid part about it. I felt that Had Hamilton told the truth, and Jarno told his story (the truth at all times), there would have been a good case of their positions being reversed in the finish. Either way, that was not that great a gain or loss.

This case is sad because two years ago, I admired the achievements of this rookie Lewis Hamilton who was able to race on equal terms with twice WDC Alonso, the driver who I admired most in F1. However, their shenanigans left a very bad taste in my mouth. And now this lying - I don't care how many times Lewis apologised, and looked so genuine. You should have seen me when I broke my Mum's crystal bowl - Heck, I almost escaped a spanking. :(

For Lewis to escape any punishment would be the work of the devil himself : Bernie, as it would further affect the fight for this year's WDC. I firmly believe that Lewis Hamilton should be punished, and not McLaren in this case. I reckon both these two terds blindsided Martin Whitmarsh, who defended these two liars despite the interview Hamilton gave after the race and the radio communications. I know you don't, but in this case I do believe Whitmarsh.

But how can Lewis Hamilton be punished and not affect Bernies quest for a hard fought WDC and more viewers? I would recommend giving Lewis Hamilton a large plastic bin bag and make him pick up dog poo around the race circuit complexes for the next 3 races. Let the punishment fit the crime. After the third bag of dog poo, he'll think twice before lying again.

:D Always an entertaining read. I like the punishment, seems to fit the crime.

[Valve Bounce]

"We recognise Lewis's efforts to set the record straight," said an FIA spokesman. "It would appear he was put in an impossible position.'

.

I don't mean to be nasty, but wasn't that the argument the Nazi's used in the war crime tribunals afterwards??

[Valve Bounce]

Translation for those who are hard of understanding.

It would appear that Bernie has stepped in and warned that if the stewards ban his cash cow he'll chuck a strop and stop the flow of whip wielding women to Max.

or

It would appear that McLaren asked Lewis to lie and being the win at all costs type he obliged because he doesn't mind lying but he's no liar.... honest!!!!

I love this story

"I'm not a liar" :mark:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7980593.stm
Which is quite funny because there is documented evidence of him lying :confused: Just admit what you did Lewis and be done with it and we can forget this silly little incident and go back to appreciating your talent....

You can't criticise Hamilton for driving skill, he really is up there at the top for sure but he has this pigheaded belief that everything he does is right and it's beginning to alienate some of his fans. If you look at all the incidents over the last couple of years there's been one common theme and that is that Lewis has never held his hands up and categorically said "I did wrong" and admitted full responsibility. He could well learn a lesson from Vettel who took responsibility for what he did and apologised for it. Sure some people don't agree that Vettel should have done it but in 20 years time when Vettel has retired he won't have the smudge on his record of being someone who couldn't admit that he'd made a mistake. If Vettel never wins another race or a title he'll still be regarded as being a great driver and a nice guy.

I saw this weird pigheaded self belief a long time ago, I just wish other people had seen it then and wish that some people would open their eyes and see it now.


:up: My exact feelings, Daniel!!

[Hawkmoon]

Clearly Mclaren did wrong. They've taken the penalty and this thread? Seems like we're in a witch hunt.

There have been plenty of less than honest incidents before with barely any fanfare, let alone race disqualifications.

I hope the FIA recognize justice has been recognized and move on.

F1 is becoming too much drama to watch.

1st Vettel getting penalized for a fncking racing incident, and now this soap opera. Before you know it these great 2009 new rules will drown in no one passing in order to avoid penalties.



:D Always an entertaining read. I like the punishment, seems to fit the crime.

I agree. McLaren have been punished, and fittingly I believe. A race ban would be over the top and exclusion from the championship would be unfair.

McLaren and Hamilton have made a bed that they probably won't like lying in (that word just won't go away!) for some time to come. Their strained relationship with the stewards just got worse. They put a wheel out of line for the rest of the season and I'm sure a library of books will come crashing down upon them.

It's done. Let it go and get back to the racing.

[ShiftingGears]

I agree. McLaren have been punished, and fittingly I believe. A race ban would be over the top and exclusion from the championship would be unfair.

McLaren and Hamilton have made a bed that they probably won't like lying in (that word just won't go away!) for some time to come. Their strained relationship with the stewards just got worse. They put a wheel out of line for the rest of the season and I'm sure a library of books will come crashing down upon them.

It's done. Let it go and get back to the racing,

:up: :up: :up:

[gloomyDAY]

I agree. McLaren have been punished, and fittingly I believe. A race ban would be over the top and exclusion from the championship would be unfair.

McLaren and Hamilton have made a bed that they probably won't like lying in (that word just won't go away!) for some time to come. Their strained relationship with the stewards just got worse. They put a wheel out of line for the rest of the season and I'm sure a library of books will come crashing down upon them.

It's done. Let it go and get back to the racing.Yes sir!

[Tazio]

:up: :up: :up: I say they should have their dicks dragged through the dirt a little more :dozey:

[F1boat]

I don't mean to be nasty, but wasn't that the argument the Nazi's used in the war crime tribunals afterwards??

Yes. That's why Max will try not to be scandalous and will use Jacobin' ideology - he will say that Lewis is "suspicious" :)

[F1boat]

I agree. McLaren have been punished, and fittingly I believe. A race ban would be over the top and exclusion from the championship would be unfair.

McLaren and Hamilton have made a bed that they probably won't like lying in (that word just won't go away!) for some time to come. Their strained relationship with the stewards just got worse. They put a wheel out of line for the rest of the season and I'm sure a library of books will come crashing down upon them.

It's done. Let it go and get back to the racing.
:thumbs up:

[ShiftingGears]

I don't mean to be nasty, but wasn't that the argument the Nazi's used in the war crime tribunals afterwards??

Yes, but I think discussions of that kind are best left to chit chat.

[ArrowsFA1]

Here's the last two lines of that report:

The FIA made clear that further action could still be taken against the team for allegedly bringing the sport into disrepute.

"We cannot rule out the matter being referred to the world motor sport council at this stage," the spokesman said.
So the hangman's noose is there waiting. We already know that's been the case ever since Max Mosley made clear his wish to see McLaren removed from the championship.

It's my opinion that McLaren's actions in Australia, reprehensible as they were, must be seen in that context.

[Daniel]

So the hangman's noose is there waiting. We already know that's been the case ever since Max Mosley made clear his wish to see McLaren removed from the championship.

It's my opinion that McLaren's actions in Australia, reprehensible as they were, must be seen in that context.

Translation for the hard of understanding.

It's Max's fault that Lewis and Dave Ryan lied.

[ArrowsFA1]

It's Max's fault that Lewis and Dave Ryan lied.
Totally and utterly wrong, and a misrepresentation of my opinion.

McLaren are at fault, and responsible for, their own actions.

However, it is my opinion that those actions should be seen in the context of other events, and not in isolation.

[Valve Bounce]

Yes, but I think discussions of that kind are best left to chit chat.

If it involves an FIA statement, why chit chat about it?

Totally and utterly wrong, and a misrepresentation of my opinion.

McLaren are at fault, and responsible for, for their own actions.

However, it is my opinion that those actions should be seen in the context of other events, and not in isolation.

Bollocks.

Max didn't make Ryan & Hamilton decieve the stewards. It's time people recognised that responsibility is not something that can be handed over when it's not a convenient thing to have.

There are no scapegoats, there are no mitigating factors.

This constant "but it only happened because" is truly pathetic.

It's always somebody elses fault isn't it Arrows? Grow up and get some sense of responsibility. This childish lack of responsibility does you no favours.

[Valve Bounce]

Bollocks.

Max didn't make Ryan & Hamilton decieve the stewards. It's time people recognised that responsibility is not something that can be handed over when it's not a convenient thing to have.

There are no scapegoats, there are no mitigating factors.

This constant "but it only happened because" is truly pathetic.

It's always somebody elses fault isn't it Arrows? Grow up and get some sense of responsibility. This childish lack of responsibility does you no favours.

Tambo, I agree with your analysis. But I think this attack on Arrows is a little off the mark, because I don't think Arrows was trying to re-assign the responsibilities. I've known Arrows from way, way back when he was a top mod here, and I think that he may have voiced a different view to ours.

Personally, I'd like to know what the heck those other events Arrows refers to. But I will re-state, Arrows is one of the longest friends I have here, so please view my remarks in that context.

[Tazio]

I'll be suprised if McLaren doesn't get at least a token penalty. The management lying can't go unpunished!

[Valve Bounce]

I'll be suprised if McLaren doesn't get at least a token penalty. The management lying can't go unpunished!

As I have already posted, the best punishment is to make Lewis Hamilton pick up dog poo around the circuit in the next three races.

Tambo, I agree with your analysis. But I think this attack on Arrows is a little off the mark, because I don't think Arrows was trying to re-assign the responsibilities. I've known Arrows from way, way back when he was a top mod here, and I think that he may have voiced a different view to ours.

Personally, I'd like to know what the heck those other events Arrows refers to. But I will re-state, Arrows is one of the longest friends I have here, so please view my remarks in that context.

Fair enough, and like Lewis I apologise for letting my fans down.

[pino]

Bollocks.

Max didn't make Ryan & Hamilton decieve the stewards. It's time people recognised that responsibility is not something that can be handed over when it's not a convenient thing to have.

There are no scapegoats, there are no mitigating factors.

This constant "but it only happened because" is truly pathetic.

It's always somebody elses fault isn't it Arrows? Grow up and get some sense of responsibility. This childish lack of responsibility does you no favours.

For your own good, calm down and quit the insults, because your next ban will be a long one !

[Daniel]

Totally and utterly wrong, and a misrepresentation of my opinion.

McLaren are at fault, and responsible for, their own actions.

However, it is my opinion that those actions should be seen in the context of other events, and not in isolation.

Then why bring Max into it? Why not discuss some other event that is comparable? Max has done nothing wrong in relation to this ballsup sofar, if he does ban the team for a year then let's have a thread about how much of a bonehead he is but let's not talk about him until he does something wrong because at the moment it merely looks like you're trying to deflect the spotlight from Lewis and McLaren.

[pino]

If it involves an FIA statement, why chit chat about it?

Because this is a place to discuss F1 not crappy Nazi's :rolleyes:

[TL]

yes Lewis lied...big mistake...and he admitted it saying sorry in public...But are you guys that naieve to believe every other driver out there never ever tells a lie whether it is during interviews...press conferences etc etc etc...a lie is a lie after all !

[Valve Bounce]

For your own good, calm down and quit the insults, because your next ban will be a long one !

pino, I fully agree with you. There is a need for everyone to calm down because this discussion should be about the two members of McLaren and their stupidity, and not about each other here. I think that's what I tried to say in my post above.

Sometimes its fun to misinterpret another person's post or point of view so that we can all them a pratt, but when you think about it later, it's not much fun or satisfaction.

Just my two bob's worth.

[Valve Bounce]

yes Lewis lied...big mistake...and he admitted it saying sorry in public...But are you guys that naieve to believe every other driver out there never ever tells a lie whether it is during interviews...press conferences etc etc etc...a lie is a lie after all !

Look!! it wasn't me, MUM!! it was the other guy!! don't blame me, it's not my fault!!

So an apology is meaningless then Pino?

Thanks for the clarification.

[Valve Bounce]

So an apology is meaningless then Pino?

Thanks for the clarification.

tambo!! amigo!! it depends who you are apologising to and what you are apologising for. Correcto??

[TL]

Look!! it wasn't me, MUM!! it was the other guy!! don't blame me, it's not my fault!!



what do you mean by that ?

[Valve Bounce]

what do you mean by that ?

That's what I said to my Mum when the neighbors complained. :(

[Tazio]

Then why bring Max into it? Why not discuss some other event that is comparable? Max has done nothing wrong in relation to this ballsup sofar, if he does ban the team for a year then let's have a thread about how much of a bonehead he is but let's not talk about him until he does something wrong because at the moment it merely looks like you're trying to deflect the spotlight from Lewis and McLaren.Bringing Max into this is absolutely absurd :up:

[TL]

That's what I said to my Mum when the neighbors complained. :(

ok nice to know ;-)..but what got that to do with my post ?

[ArrowsFA1]

This childish lack of responsibility does you no favours.
Please read what I actually write. Although your deliberate antagonism towards my opinions is well established, and frequently voiced, it does you no favours.

Personally, I'd like to know what the heck those other events Arrows refers to.
Valve, it's a fact that the FIA President wanted McLaren removed from the championship over Spygate. Obviously that didn't happen, but since then there have been a number of penalties affecting McLaren and, regardless of the rights and wrongs of them, I think the fear of further penalty played a role in the decisions made by the team last weekend. You only had to listen to the team radio to know there was uncertainty and they were seeking clarification from the Race Director. The last thing McLaren needed, or wanted, particularly with Lewis in his first race as WDC, was any kind of controversy.

In particular, Spa 2008 and the unappealable penalty imposed on Hamilton, may very well have been fresh in their memories. Fact: Hamilton passed Trulli under the safety car. I suspect the team were concerned they may be penalised for that, hence the need for clarification from the Race Director, which they did not get. While seeking clarification the team told Hamilton to let Trulli by. That was the wrong thing to do, and they compounded that by the lie told to the stewards later.

That is the context I refer to. Disregard it if you wish. After all it is only my opinion. At the end of the day, as I've said, McLaren are at fault, and responsible for, for their own actions.

Please read what I actually write. Although your deliberte antagonism towards my opinions is well established, and frequently voiced, it does you no favours.

I do apologise for having the temerity to call into doubt the validity of your opinion.

Feel free to accept that if you wish.

[ArrowsFA1]

I do apologise for having the temerity to call into doubt the validity of your opinion.

Feel free to accept that if you wish.
tamburello, I have never had any problem with you, or anyone, questioning my opinions. That's what an F1 discussion forum is all about, as I've said to you before.

[ioan]

But how can Lewis Hamilton be punished and not affect Bernies quest for a hard fought WDC and more viewers? I would recommend giving Lewis Hamilton a large plastic bin bag and make him pick up dog poo around the race circuit complexes for the next 3 races. Let the punishment fit the crime. After the third bag of dog poo, he'll think twice before lying again.

Given the McL's pace I doubt that banning Hammy or both McLaren's for a couple of races will change anything in the fight for the championship.

Bernie needs to protect the Brawn's Toyota's and RBR's this season if he wants a close championship fight!

[Valve Bounce]

ok nice to know ;-)..but what got that to do with my post ?

Hey!! you should have seen the innocent look on my face. Better than Hamilton's. Got it?

[ioan]

So the hangman's noose is there waiting. We already know that's been the case ever since Max Mosley made clear his wish to see McLaren removed from the championship.

Give it a break, that is not true and I personally do not appreciate hearing this kind of misleading affirmations.

[Valve Bounce]

tamburello, I have never had any problem with you, or anyone, questioning my opinions. That's what an F1 discussion forum is all about, as I've said to you before.

Well, that was a dumb assumption about McLaren being concerned so they behaved that way in Melbourne, for sure. If they were worried, they shouldn't have lied to the Stewards.

[ioan]

Bringing Max into this is absolutely absurd :up:

Well, it was time they did it, isn't it?
First was the stewards fault for not seeing that McL and Hammy were lying. Than Charlie's fault for not pampering them during a SC period.
Than it was Ferrari's and MS's fault.
It followed Ryan "McLaren Scapegoat" on the list of those solely at fault.
Now it's Max's fault, he used his magic wand to trick mcLaren and Lewis into lying, I tell you he's the supreme evil! :D

[Tumbo]

Does anyone think though that the Stewards will release a transcript of what was said during the hearing (i've looked but have yet to find one) which shows what the actual lie mclaren told was (note here I am looking for the question posed and the response given) because it is clear mclaren ordered lewis to let trulli by but only AFTER trulli had already passed (as can be heard in the transmissions and seen in the transcript) thus it could easily be a question of mclaren playing the grammar game during the hearing where they didn't lie but provide all the information at the same time - 'there was no team orders for the swap of position.........but, we did order him to give up the position after the fact' where they said the first but neglected the second

[Dave B]

Does anyone think though that the Stewards will release a transcript of what was said during the hearing (i've looked but have yet to find one) which shows what the actual lie mclaren told was...
No, becuase unbelievably they don't keep a transcript of their enquiries.

[Note to anyone who is unwilling or incapable of taking this post in context: this is not excusing or defending McLaren's behaviour, just merely pointing out yet another flaw in the FIA's procedure. Don't confuse the two.]

[ioan]

ok nice to know ;-)..but what got that to do with my post ?

Either you don't want or you can't understand it, in both cases it's a sad situation.

[TL]

Either you don't want or you can't understand it, in both cases it's a sad situation.

you know what's a sad situation ioan....you and a couple others on this forum goin personal all the time !

[ioan]

you know what's a sad situation ioan....you and a couple others on this forum goin personal all the time !

There are limits to the trolling most of us can take.
IMO you are either trolling or you just don't see that a lie is a lie no matter what.

[SGWilko]

Bollocks.

Max didn't make Ryan & Hamilton decieve the stewards. It's time people recognised that responsibility is not something that can be handed over when it's not a convenient thing to have.

There are no scapegoats, there are no mitigating factors.

This constant "but it only happened because" is truly pathetic.

It's always somebody elses fault isn't it Arrows? Grow up and get some sense of responsibility. This childish lack of responsibility does you no favours.

I got a warning for telling someone to grow up, bet you don't.

Reckon this place is run by the FIA. :laugh:

[SGWilko]

For your own good, calm down and quit the insults, because your next ban will be a long one !

Fairy muff.

[SGWilko]

So an apology is meaningless then Pino?

Thanks for the clarification.

Big Ben and its many faces again?

You and ioan don't think Lewis' apology is good enough.

What's good for the Goose and all that..........

[SGWilko]

ok nice to know ;-)..but what got that to do with my post ?

Humour, does anyone here, apart from Valve, remember that phenomenon?

[SGWilko]

Given the McL's pace I doubt that banning Hammy or both McLaren's for a couple of races will change anything in the fight for the championship.


Given the circumstances ioan, I find that comment most risible! :rotflmao:

[SGWilko]

Does anyone think though that the Stewards will release a transcript of what was said during the hearing (i've looked but have yet to find one) which shows what the actual lie mclaren told was (note here I am looking for the question posed and the response given) because it is clear mclaren ordered lewis to let trulli by but only AFTER trulli had already passed (as can be heard in the transmissions and seen in the transcript) thus it could easily be a question of mclaren playing the grammar game during the hearing where they didn't lie but provide all the information at the same time - 'there was no team orders for the swap of position.........but, we did order him to give up the position after the fact' where they said the first but neglected the second

Two hopes - Bob, and no.

[SGWilko]

No, becuase unbelievably they don't keep a transcript of their enquiries.

[Note to anyone who is unwilling or incapable of taking this post in context: this is not excusing or defending McLaren's behaviour, just merely pointing out yet another flaw in the FIA's procedure. Don't confuse the two.]

I don't find that unbelievable at all. This is the FIA and their band of merry (pi55ed merry, no doubt ;) ) men we are talking about here. :down:

[SGWilko]

it's a sad situation.

...and it's getting more and more absurd....

[TL]

There are limits to the trolling most of us can take.
IMO you are either trolling or you just don't see that a lie is a lie no matter what.

tip to ioan..if certain posts are annoying you..ignore them..instead of what you are doin...

[SGWilko]

tip to ioan..if certain posts are annoying you..ignore them..instead of what you are doin...

Listen, my advice - don't waste your breath. He'll always take the bait. That's what makes him such fun.

Big Ben and its many faces again?


That is a personal attack.

What's good for the goose.....

[SGWilko]

That is a personal attack.

What's good for the goose.....

Never did like that bell

[Valve Bounce]

Never did like that bell

Are you talking about the DONG or the chime?

[SGWilko]

Are you talking about the DONG or the chime?

I don't know what you mean...... ;)

[TL]

I don't know what you mean...... ;)

Watch it Mr. Wilko... ;)

[Valve Bounce]

I don't know what you mean...... ;)

.............of Big Ben!!

[SGWilko]

.............of Big Ben!!

Just tugging Valve..... :D

[markabilly]

Are you talking about the DONG or the chime?


I only think about doing the BONG....i find chimes to be a bit boring and they are always turning up with a baby in the oven...

[pino]

Big Ben and its many faces again?

You and ioan don't think Lewis' apology is good enough.

What's good for the Goose and all that..........

One more insult and you will be banned for 1 month...try me !

[jjanicke]

Give it a break, that is not true and I personally do not appreciate hearing this kind of misleading affirmations.

It's an opinion not an affirmation.

[SGWilko]

One more insult and you will be banned for 1 month...try me !

This is just like real F1, consistency is not us.

But to quote ioan and, on occasion Tamburello, who were not sanctioned for the comment......

Bollocks.

You really need to grasp the intricacies of Brit humour, the lack of understanding of how us lot express ourselves when poking fun at someone
Just won't cut it.

If it was a genuine insult, fine. But, 'twasn't.

Still, its your prorogative, so...... Speak later or in a months time...... ;)

[jens]

As a Toyota/Trulli supporter I must admit that by now I have had enough of all this debate by now. JT got his 3rd place back. I don't want any further punishments for Hamilton/McLaren, they already got their DQ from Oz and let's get back to racing now please. :up:

[PSfan]

As a Toyota/Trulli supporter I must admit that by now I have had enough of all this debate by now. JT got his 3rd place back. I don't want any further punishments for Hamilton/McLaren, they already got their DQ from Oz and let's get back to racing now please. :up:

If only it where so simple...

Have you read 151c of the sporting regs?

c) Any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the
interests of any competition or to the interests of motor
sport generally.

McLeran are now caught repeat offenders. Add to that Alonso claims he knows of intances that they got away with... The FIA should really invite him to their meeting in about 2 weeks time...

And lets discuss the "it was one mans fault thoery" If that was the case why did Whitmarsh come out with the "we didn't lie statements" I suppose he could have been ignorant, maybe Hamilton also lied to him as well, because if I was the McLeran principle, I would have asked Hamilton some questions before making some public statements on the subject...

And lets discuss Hamilton's apology: "I'm sorry, I didn't lie, I was just saying what I was told to say, just like right now, except they are telling me to tell you I am honest and I don't lie...." Will see if the FIA still think that Hamilton is being genuine in some 2 weeks when it matters.

And to Arrows theory that Max is out to get them and the punishment will probably be harsher then deserved because of it... NEWS FLASH... McLeran should have already been aware of this fact after spygate and should have stayed out of trouble!!!

Now, Like during spygate I still have the opinion that because of a shortage of teams this year, McLeran won't be punished as to what I believe they deserve... her's praying they don't learn their lesson and repeat this again next year...

[ozrevhead]

Big Ben and its many faces again?

You and ioan don't think Lewis' apology is good enough.

What's good for the Goose and all that..........
d
and I dont either

do you think its OK to lie to the stewards so your competitor gets penalised

as we say in Oz its a dog of an act :mad:

[ShiftingGears]

Hamilton considered quitting over the scandal, apparently, and may quit McLaren over this issue.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74279

[Tazio]

Hamilton considered quitting over the scandal, apparently, and may quit McLaren over this issue.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74279

"Lewis is terribly upset but his father is even more upset having his son called a cheat."

IMO their are only two alternatives for Lewis:
1) continue to throw your toys out of the pram
2) exibit the balls of that little known Greek God "Testicles"
(as long as it's ok with your dad)

[markabilly]

This is just like real F1, consistency is not us.

But to quote ioan and, on occasion Tamburello, who were not sanctioned for the comment......

Bollocks.

You really need to grasp the intricacies of Brit humour, the lack of understanding of how us lot express ourselves when poking fun at someone
Just won't cut it.

If it was a genuine insult, fine. But, 'twasn't.

Still, its your prorogative, so...... Speak later or in a months time...... ;)

Give him a break, pino is not nearly so bad as the "rookie" moderator over in the irl.

pino sometimes gets it....well every now and then.....the other is adament about protecting the irl, even banning the word "fanboy" (which of course brought the level of discussion up to "You are a F***** of TG" and the other very trivial chit chat about DP's latest photo spread) to say nothing of just being rude and insulting....indeed in my entire time here, I have never engaged in any such rude personal attack and insult designed to provoke like he engaged in.

But I do agree, while Ioan and we all sometimes get a little heated, but when such comments are like "try me", well talking about asking for it and being provocative while insisting others maintain something different, well.....Pino, soorry but I do not see the need to be so "blunt" nor "in your face"

[ozrevhead]

"Lewis is terribly upset but his father is even more upset having his son called a cheat."

IMO their are only two alternatives for Lewis:
1) continue to throw your toys out of the pram
2) exibit the balls of that little known Greek God "Testicles"
(as long as it's ok with your dad)
exactly....... nothing like a cheap threat to frighten FIA into a reversal and I would love if FIA to call his bluff

[PSfan]

Hamilton considered quitting over the scandal, apparently, and may quit McLaren over this issue.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74279

Wow, how did I almost miss this? I wonder if Max is gullible enough to buy it?

If your upset enough to quit you job, who would you call? For Hamilton I would imagine it would be his Dad, his Brother, how about the Pussy Cat Doll, But MAX MOSLEY?!?!?!

[F1boat]

Wow, how did I almost miss this? I wonder if Max is gullible enough to buy it?

If your upset enough to quit you job, who would you call? For Hamilton I would imagine it would be his Dad, his Brother, how about the Pussy Cat Doll, But MAX MOSLEY?!?!?!

Max showed him a side of Formula One and human behavior, of which Lewis was unaware ;)
On a more serious note, I don't know if this is true, but if Lewis quit the sport it will be a huge blow and a benefit to the series in which he will race. I am not a fan of him, but he is a great driver and to me is far more valuable to the sport than the FIA executors...

[Tazio]

:rolleyes: Schumacher left F1 and it survived!
I think F1 could take LW's loss in stride!
Don't be silly boat! :up:

[F1boat]

Naturally it will survive, but for sure it will be a big loss.

[Tazio]

Naturally it will survive, but for sure it will be a big loss.
A loss for Hamilton! Not me!

[F1boat]

A loss for Hamilton! Not me!

True tifosi hardliner ;)

[Daniel]

It would be sad if he left but F1 would survive. This is becoming a comedy now. Just shut up and drive Lewis!

[ioan]

Hamilton considered quitting over the scandal, apparently, and may quit McLaren over this issue.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74279

I have troubles believeing him, he's a liar after all.

[markabilly]

I have troubles believeing him, he's a liar after all.


But not a deliberate liar.....he was merely told by his team to lie....http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132449

[ioan]

But not a deliberate liar.....he was merely told by his team to lie....http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132449

I don't believe that part either.

[SGWilko]

I don't believe that part either.

Well, his lips were moving, so grab your salt shakers....... ;)

[jjanicke]

Schumacher was no saint, as proven over and over again. Hamilton has one f'-up and he's all that's bad in F1.

Perhaps one should reflect before pulling out the torches and pitch forks.

[gloomyDAY]

This incident should be dropped.

McLaren fired Dave Ryan, Hamilton looks like a moron, and the world keeps turning. What would be the point in embarrassing the team even further?

[ArrowsFA1]

McLeran should have already been aware of this fact after spygate and should have stayed out of trouble!!!
I think they are fully aware of the situation they are in, probably too much so because it is affecting their decision making, as illustrated by the dumb decision in the stewards room. That in turn makes it more likely they will be penalised. A self perpetuating vocious circle :crazy:

[Triumph]

Schumacher was no saint, as proven over and over again. Hamilton has one f'-up and he's all that's bad in F1.


I always take that as tacit acceptance by the masses of Lewis Hamilton's ability.

Again and again we see parallels being drawn between Lewis Hamilton and one of the greatest racers of all time, namely Michael Schumacher.

Looks as if he is doing everything the right way then, doesn't it?

:-)

[ArrowsFA1]

I have troubles believeing him, he's a liar after all.
These are extraordinary events though ioan. If reports are to be believed - and they come from the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7985530.stm) & Autosport (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74279) - Hamilton and/or his representatives spoke to Max Mosley and told him Lewis was prepared to walk away from the sport over this.

We don't know whether it was put in terms of "I'm sick of driving for a bunch of cheats" or "I'm sick of my team and I being the target of a witch-hunt". It may have been neither.

The idea that Lewis Hamilton, who has been associated with McLaren for most of his racing career, and who won the WDC with a team he dreamed of doing just that with for all those years, would approach the FIA President of all people is astonishing.

Still, Hamilton did conduct a press conference by himself, the kind of thing that very rarely happens, and which can only happen with the approval of the FIA.

More than that, it does seem as though his apology has prevented him from being punished further. McLaren, on the other hand, look as though they will face further sanctions.

And to think, all of this started with Jarno Trulli going off the circuit behind the safety car :crazy:

Still, Hamilton did conduct a press conference by himself, the kind of thing that very rarely happens, and which can only happen with the approval of the FIA.

Add to that, I read reports that it was the Hamilton family alone who approached the FIA about doing the press conference and was deliberately, intended by Anthony Hamilton, nothing to do with Mclaren.



More than that, it does seem as though his apology has prevented him from being punished further. McLaren, on the other hand, look as though they will face further sanctions.

According to
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/apr/05/hamilton-whitmarsh-mclaren-mercedes-formula-one
Whitmarsh's fate might be decided before the FIA decide. The matter will be raised at a boardroom meeting of Mercedes this week.

We don't know whether it was put in terms of "I'm sick of driving for a bunch of cheats" or "I'm sick of my team and I being the target of a witch-hunt". It may have been neither.

Well, considering how he and his team were caught bang-to-rights, the "witch-hunt" card would be a very implausible one.

In fact, only a certified half-wit would believe that after Melbourne.

[ioan]

These are extraordinary events though ioan. If reports are to be believed - and they come from the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7985530.stm) & Autosport (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74279) - Hamilton and/or his representatives spoke to Max Mosley and told him Lewis was prepared to walk away from the sport over this.

That's bullcrap, if he is so pissed off for being called a liar than he should walk away not just threaten.

What Lewy and his father are doing is trying to blackmail F1 as if he was the One. Well F1 survived without Fangio, Clark, Senna, Prost and even without M. Schumacher.

So please Lewy get your stuff and bugger off, we do not need liars, cheaters and blackmailers. :wave:

[ioan]

According to
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/apr/05/hamilton-whitmarsh-mclaren-mercedes-formula-one
Whitmarsh's fate might be decided before the FIA decide. The matter will be raised at a boardroom meeting of Mercedes this week.

From what I read it might be that Mercedes will decide over their whole F1 operation. Spying Saga + Lying Saga + Slow Car + Economic downturn might equal Mercedes takes their ball home.

[ArrowsFA1]

Add to that, I read reports that it was the Hamilton family alone who approached the FIA about doing the press conference and was deliberately, intended by Anthony Hamilton, nothing to do with Mclaren.
And according to Tony Dodgins (http://www.autosport.com/features/article.php/id/2085), among others, McLaren initiated the idea of Lewis having a press conference so asked the FIA's press delegate, the FIA communications director, and Alan Donnelly whether it could be held in the FIA press room. They gave the go-ahead.

A press report can be found to fit every viewpoint :p


Well, considering how he and his team were caught bang-to-rights, the "witch-hunt" card would be a very implausible one.

In fact, only a certified half-wit would believe that after Melbourne.
Again, being caught "bang to rights", as they were in this case, should be seen in the full context. As Mark Hughes says (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7985530.stm) the Melbourne incident is:

...one borne of McLaren's underlying paranoia about being penalised by the governing body...
Obviously yet another "certified half-wit" :laugh:

Again, being caught "bang to rights", as they were in this case, should be seen in the full context. As Mark Hughes says (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7985530.stm) the Melbourne incident is:

Obviously yet another "certified half-wit" :laugh:

Mark Hughes, who wrote Hamiltons autobiography....yes, very objective source.

Hughes is so far up Ron Dennis's arsehole he can see his teeth.

Come on...only somebody who has been brain-washed in Woking could claim that Hamilton quitting Mclaren over this incident could be seen as...

"Such a move would almost certainly have a huge negative backlash upon his image, given the wealth and sporting success that has come his way by McLaren's investment in him"

Negative backlash from leaving a team who had misled him?

On what planet does that logic apply?

Stirling Moss - ". I can't see that there can be any excuse for how he behaved in front of the stewards"

""People remember these sort of things, don't they? I am saddened, shocked, disappointed and disheartened."

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/Formula-One-Whitmarsh39s-position-is.5143601.jp

[ioan]

Negative backlash from leaving a team who had misled him?

On what planet does that logic apply?

Planet Woking! ;)

[ioan]

I agree what he did was very foolish and naive.

Nah, what he did was bad and disgraceful! We aren't talking about a 10 year old kid (at least I hope) but about an adult.

[Tazio]

I agree what he did was very foolish and naive. So what would people like to see as a punishment for Lewis and Mclaren? Lets not forget Heikki in all of this too, afterall he does drive for them so he should ultimately be punished too, or not?
Heikki's punishment :confused:
He retired on lap 1
He had time to debrief, have an ice crerme bar,
take a shower, and a shyte! before any of this happened!
Just like many other drivers(includng Ferrari's)
right now he is standing on zero points

In the immmortal words of Bob Dylan:
"When you ain't got nothin' You got nothin' to lose" :)

[Tazio]

Yeah I see your point LOL :p

But there are people on here that would like to see Mclaren kicked out of the championship al together over this, so this would affect Heikki as he would be unable to get a point this season if this were the outcome. I think a ban of any sort will damage the whole sport not just Mclaren, as it would deprive viewers of two competitors. Its a difficult one to call IMO and slapping a big fine on them defeats the object, so what would you guys like to see?A suspended sentence of a two race exclusion, priorable by any other major rule violation!

[SGWilko]

Hughes is so far up Ron Dennis's arsehole he can see his teeth.

Nice, not.

Surely, it would be much easier to just stand in front of Ron, and ask him to smile...

Much less chance of getting 5h1t up your nose that way..........

[SGWilko]

brain-washed in Woking

IS that a relative of Disgruntled of Tunbridge Wells?

[Garry Walker]

I talked to my friend who works for one of the biggest f1 magazines and he said the overall feeling is that Ryan was simply made a scapegoat

[Tazio]

I talked to my friend who works for one of the biggest f1 magazines and he said the overall feeling is that Ryan was simply made a scapegoatBig surprise!

[Knock-on]

I talked to my friend who works for one of the biggest f1 magazines and he said the overall feeling is that Ryan was simply made a scapegoat

Now, don't start all that again :laugh: i was just starting to like you :p :

[SGWilko]

I talked to my friend who works for one of the biggest f1 magazines and he said the overall feeling is that Ryan was simply made a scapegoat

I had a mate who worked for Mastercare (disastercare) - part of the DSG group. He told me that Matsui were better than B&O....... :laugh:

[Dave B]

I'm reserving comment until I hear what CarlMetro's dad has to say on the matter ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

In fact, only a certified half-wit would believe that after Melbourne.

Hughes is so far up Ron Dennis's arsehole he can see his teeth.

Come on...only somebody who has been brain-washed in Woking...
Very fine arguments you have there :p Max's press office must be working overtime to come up with those :laugh:

Very fine arguments you have there :p Max's press office must be working overtime to come up with those :laugh:

How about trying to discredit them with arguments and facts? Or is it too busy in the Mclaren PR room?

FACT - Hughes wrote Hamilton's biography. Hardly an onbjective viewpoint.
FACT - Hughes in his Autosport job glossed over Spygate, not even making Whitmarsh's admission & apology anything other than a one column piece on page three. Not once did he question the sporting conduct of any of the individuals concerned....oh, except Fernando, big surprise!
FACT - Hughes has never written a critical piece about the management of Mclaren.

So, please, counter these arguments...go on...just once....

[SGWilko]

So, please, counter these arguments...go on...just once....

Your second fact, about page three, who was the bird that day, and did she 'ave a nice pear? ;)

Oh, and your sig Tamb, you not said 'nuff yet? :p

[ioan]

I have a friend who knows a guys friend who works for the Sun Newspaper..umm no only joking :D

Well I could even believe that you work for The Sun newspaper! :p :

[ioan]

Your second fact, about page three, who was the bird that day, and did she 'ave a nice pear? ;)

I think you are talking about the wrong rag there! ;)

[SGWilko]

I think you are talking about the wrong rag there! ;)

Oh yes, he means Autosport, and I was thinking of Sundaysport...

Silly me.... ;) :laugh:

[SGWilko]

Keep quiet you'll blow my cover LOL :p

Exactly what Max said.... :rotflmao:

[ioan]

Exactly what Max said.... :rotflmao:

:laugh:

[Powered by Cosworth]

I'm reserving comment until I hear what CarlMetro's dad has to say on the matter ;)

If we're bring our ol' men into this, then I have some news :p

The person who sent the spies and whatnot to follow Max to his dungeon was Ron Dennis, after being pissed off about the spygate penaltys.

This has led to some 'questionable' decisions by the FIA ruling against McLaren.

Supposadly it's common knowlege high up in the paddock.

[ArrowsFA1]

So, please, counter these arguments...go on...just once....
Not this time thanks, obviously that FIA file of yours is thick and comprehensive enough to have come up with those details so very quickly. Impressive and thorough work :)

Still, however you wish to characterise Hughes (and insults or lawsuits seem to be the name of the game if anyone doesn't tow the FIA line) his point remains - McLaren's underlying paranoia about being penalised by the governing body.

If that didn't exist would we have had the indecision during the team radio conversations? Would there have been the lie in the stewards room?

Not this time thanks, obviously that FIA file of yours is thick and comprehensive enough to have come up with those details so very quickly. Impressive and thorough work :)

Your failure has been noted.



Still, however you wish to characterise Hughes (and insults or lawsuits seem to be the name of the game if anyone doesn't tow the FIA line) his point remains - McLaren's underlying paranoia about being penalised by the governing body.

If that didn't exist would we have had the indecision during the team radio conversations? Would there have been the lie in the stewards room?

Except that Hughes and yourself conveniently ignore a key issue....if Mclaren hadn't given the FIA reason to penalise them in the first instance, Spygate, then they wouldn't need to be so paranoid.

Whichever way it rolls, Mclaren are architects of their own misfortune.

[Tazio]

If that didn't exist//Would there have been the lie in the stewards room?
Good question! Chose your poison
:rotflmao:

Pathological Liar:

A pathological liar is often goal-oriented (i.e., lying is focused - it is done to get one's way). Pathological liars have little regard or respect for the rights and feelings of others. A pathological liar often comes across as being manipulative, cunning and self-centered.

Compulsive Liar:

For the most part, compulsive liars are not overly manipulative and cunning (see, Pathological Liar), rather they simply lie out of habit - an automatic response which is hard to break and one that takes its toll on a relationship (see, how to cope with a compulsive liar).


The terms Habitual Liar and Chronic Liar are often used to refer to a Compulsive Liar. ;)

[Bagwan]

If we're bring our ol' men into this, then I have some news :p

The person who sent the spies and whatnot to follow Max to his dungeon was Ron Dennis, after being pissed off about the spygate penaltys.

This has led to some 'questionable' decisions by the FIA ruling against McLaren.

Supposadly it's common knowlege high up in the paddock.

The feline is out of the sack .
That's what all know , but don't want to verbalize .

Ron left .
McLaren aren't protesting diffusers , because that won't help the cause .
No Ron parachuting in to help the sinking ship , and that's not what Anthony had in mind .
Honestly , what's an honest boy like Lewis doing driving for them , anyway ?

Self destruct sequence activated - please stand by .

Standing at the fuse , with lighter in hand , is Max , fire starter Mosely .
One word to bring that ugly scene back , and that will stick to Lewis , too . Max would only have to remind the world that Lewis drives for that team that made us all watch that video .

And , the board room at Mercedes is being readied for the meeting .

BGP looks like a good place to invest .

[ArrowsFA1]

Your failure has been noted.
:laugh: :laugh: :rotflmao:


Except that Hughes and yourself conveniently ignore a key issue....if Mclaren hadn't given the FIA reason to penalise them in the first instance, Spygate, then they wouldn't need to be so paranoid.

Whichever way it rolls, Mclaren are architects of their own misfortune.
I don't think anyone has ignored the shadow Spygate casts over this. It is obviously a factor. However, McLaren were penalised for that. The FIA formally brought the matter to a close in December 2007.

And yet there's a feeling that, as Bagwan puts it, "Standing at the fuse , with lighter in hand , is Max , fire starter Mosely."

Yes, in this instance, McLaren are architects of their own misfortune. Not only was the lie incredibly stupid, but it was totally unnecessary. When asked "was Hamilton instructed to pass Trulli" the answer (aside from the fact that the evidence was there for the stewards had they listened to the team radio) should have been "yes, because we thought we might be penalised if we did not let him pass, and we were unable to get any clarification from Race Control." Simple.

Why did Ryan and Hamilton not say that?

[SGWilko]

"Standing at the fuse , with lighter in hand , is Max , fire starter Mosely."

Seems good an opportunity as any at this point to write....

Liar,Liar, pants on fire..... :laugh:

[christophulus]

Confirmed:


McLaren has been summoned to appear before the FIA's World Motor Sport Council on April 29 to answer charges that it has brought the sport into disrepute.
The team has been summoned on counts that it lied to stewards at the Australian Grand Prix during a hearing into Jarno Trulli overtaking Lewis Hamilton behind the safety car.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74346

[SGWilko]

Why did Ryan and Hamilton not say that?

If only we knew....

[Tazio]

Confirmed:



http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74346

Indited on five counts......oh my word :eek:

[christophulus]

And there's more, Dave Ryan has been fired by McLaren

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74348

[Tazio]

And there's more, Dave Ryan has been fired by McLaren

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74348

Ryan Canned
Tazio 7th Apr 09 09:25
by Tazio 0 1

7th Apr 09 09:25
by christophulus



Good timing bro :p :

[yodasarmpit]

When asked "was Hamilton instructed to pass Trulli" the answer (aside from the fact that the evidence was there for the stewards had they listened to the team radio) should have been "yes, because we thought we might be penalised if we did not let him pass, and we were unable to get any clarification from Race Control." Simple.

Why did Ryan and Hamilton not say that?I think that's what we all want to know.
I just can't understand their reasoning for the lie, it was so incredibly stupid and unnecessary.

[jens]

I think that's what we all want to know.
I just can't understand their reasoning for the lie, it was so incredibly stupid and unnecessary.

What kind of modern judicial process makes its decisions based purely on what both sides say, decide on 'gut feeling', who is "right" and "wrong", and that's it? If FIA's methods are so primitive in investigating incidents, then I have to highlight that I'm not surprised at all that somebody tried to use it in their favour... Well, it almost worked - for a few days.

[Robinho]

i expect more fines and a very severe warning on future conduct, as long as McLaren can persuade the FIA that it was Ryan who started this. i certainly think they gave the team enough rope to hang themselves bu keeping quiet until Malaysia and then giving them plenty of opportunity to come clean, by then the spur of the moment poor decision was over and it was an exercise in arse covering which became a massive mess.

once they'd lied, and then attempted to cover it up by maintaining the lie tey were undone. if the initial debacle was unsavoury, had thety come clean in the following few days at least then this would have probably gone away pretty quietly, when you lie and keep lying, the moment you tell the truth becomes progressively more uncomfortable, if you ever get found out.

i said after spygate that McLaren have to be whiter than white in order to regain any credit with the FIA, they've not managed this, the other controversy from last year aside, this incident has left a very bad taste. say what you like about Ron Dennis, but i don't think he would have let this one get this far, if off the ground at all

[jens]

say what you like about Ron Dennis, but i don't think he would have let this one get this far, if off the ground at all

Who knows. If RD hadn't been McLaren's team principal in 2007 any more, one can be pretty sure that everyone would have been saying something like if only Ron had been in charge, the spygate surely wouldn't have reached as far as it did"...

[Tazio]

it almost worked - for a few days.Yes, and now justice shall be most swift, and terrible! :eek:

[grantb4]

I'm guessing three race ban, retroactive. So no McLaren at China.

[Bagwan]

[quote="ArrowsFA1"] :laugh: :laugh: :rotflmao:
And yet there's a feeling that, as Bagwan puts it, "Standing at the fuse , with lighter in hand , is Max , fire starter Mosely."[quote]

I feel you should know , before you use that quote again as a reason McLaren screwed up , that I was referring to the idea that the last straw , if Max wanted to break McLaren's back , would be to tell the world who was behind the pix of his behind .

Mercedes will not stand for another debacle , and the board room chat could spell the end of the once proud team .

Whichever way they went on track , allow the pass , or not , the worst that would have happened was giving up 3rd for 4th .
At this point , the stand to be sanctioned once again .

If Max wants to tip the scales , he could .
But , I was talking about that other scandal , where someone tried to remove someone from a position for thier own benefit .

Well, seeing as how Ryan no longer works for Mclaren and Whitmarsh is stating that the team will work fully with the FIA, then they may just get a big fine....not $100million big, but enough to send the message to others that you don't try to hoodwink the stewards with such an ill concieved deception.

But if they get a ban, that wouldn't be surprising, since there is only so much the governing body of any sport can take.

[Garry Walker]

Now, don't start all that again :laugh: i was just starting to like you :p :

I aim to please :D

[Tazio]

Hamiltons's Daddy is really angry, :eek:
and the $h!+ is about to really
hit the fan :crazy:

Let's go beg Max for favors lol :dozey:

"and as speculation continued to build over Hamilton’s future with the team. Widespread reports suggest that he and his father, Anthony, who manages him, have held discussions in recent days about their OPTIONS with Max Mosley, the president of the FIA." :laugh:


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6055015.ece

[markabilly]

"and as speculation continued to build over Hamilton’s future with the team. Widespread reports suggest that he and his father, Anthony, who manages him, have held discussions in recent days about their OPTIONS with Max Mosley, the president of the FIA." :laugh:


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6055015.ece
Why is the one person who was in the best position to know and tell the truth, playing the role of the victim and being treated like a victim?

The one person who all he had to say, “well, that is NOT exactly the way it happened” and spared the whole team (and Trulli as well as the rest of us??)

When he claims he was told to lie, hhe could have said, “well I just cannot……”
[

And who by being a rat and “ratting out“ his team, is NOW no different than the Spaniard, as those who called FA, “Freddie the rat"

Team: Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now.
LH: OK.
LH: He's slowed right down in front of me.[/font][/color]
Team: OK, Lewis. Stay ahead for the time being. Stay ahead. We will get back to you. We are talking to Charlie.
LH: I let him past already.


Instead we pick on the team and throw Ryan under the bus, when Ham is confronted with the absolute truth.

Ryan was in no position to have exact personal knowledge of whether Trulli actually passed when they had told Hamilton to let him pass, or after they said: “OK, Lewis. Stay ahead for the time being. Stay ahead. We will get back to you. We are talking to Charlie.”

Only Hamilton knew the exact answer to that one…


Instead the guy with 30 years of service, who is obviously on the age of retirement, has no doubt, now gotten a real sweet deal to go off and be the fall guy, full bebenfits and probably a nice little bonus,, err severance or whatever, to ensure his silence on what exactly went on when the he talked to the "MacRat"...
Well now who among mac fans are now willing to confer the title of "rat" on Hamilton that was previously held by FA?

"Anthony has brought Lewis up not to be like that and he is disappointed somebody has called him a liar when he isn't deliberately lying."
http://www.autosport.com/news/grapevine.php/id/74279

from Hamilton:

"As soon as I got out the car I had the television interviews at the back of the garage, and straight away I gave them a good account of what happened during the race," said Hamilton.

"Straight after that we were requested by the stewards, and while waiting for the stewards I was instructed and misled by my team manager to withhold information, and that is what I did."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74202
There are many prosecutors who would say, "and upon that, I rest my case...."

But let us see here, if no press interveiw before he recieved his cover up instructions, then we might NEVER have known about what really happenned...........and Trulli would be still stuck in "no-where"

And I guess, it is NOT deliberately lying when told to lie deliberately by one of the team mechanics.............

Of course, everyone knows it is okay to perjure oneself when told to do so by your lawyers, but I did not know there was another exception for when your mechanic tells you to do so.... :rolleyes:

[jjanicke]

:laugh: :laugh: :rotflmao:
And yet there's a feeling that, as Bagwan puts it, "Standing at the fuse , with lighter in hand , is Max , fire starter Mosely."

I feel you should know , before you use that quote again as a reason McLaren screwed up , that I was referring to the idea that the last straw , if Max wanted to break McLaren's back , would be to tell the world who was behind the pix of his behind .

Mercedes will not stand for another debacle , and the board room chat could spell the end of the once proud team .

Whichever way they went on track , allow the pass , or not , the worst that would have happened was giving up 3rd for 4th .
At this point , the stand to be sanctioned once again .

If Max wants to tip the scales , he could .
But , I was talking about that other scandal , where someone tried to remove someone from a position for their own benefit .

Who might that someone be?


Well, seeing as how Ryan no longer works for Mclaren and Whitmarsh is stating that the team will work fully with the FIA, then they may just get a big fine....not $100million big, but enough to send the message to others that you don't try to hoodwink the stewards with such an ill concieved deception.

But if they get a ban, that wouldn't be surprising, since there is only so much the governing body of any sport can take.

I still don't understand how they could receive punishment larger than what Honda was given for misleading the stewards on the fuel debacle.

In fact if it is any bigger than Honda's punishment the FIA will have officially documented one of it's biases.

[jjanicke]

Hamiltons's Daddy is really angry, :eek:
and the $h!+ is about to really
hit the fan :crazy:

Let's go beg Max for favors lol :dozey:

"and as speculation continued to build over Hamilton’s future with the team. Widespread reports suggest that he and his father, Anthony, who manages him, have held discussions in recent days about their OPTIONS with Max Mosley, the president of the FIA." :laugh:


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6055015.ece

This speculation has been denied by one of the party's involved.

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/04/05/hamilton-not-quitting-says-mclaren/

We have yet to see contrary statements from the other party.

[Valve Bounce]

Hamiltons's Daddy is really angry, :eek:
and the $h!+ is about to really
hit the fan :crazy:

Let's go beg Max for favors lol :dozey:

"and as speculation continued to build over Hamilton’s future with the team. Widespread reports suggest that he and his father, Anthony, who manages him, have held discussions in recent days about their OPTIONS with Max Mosley, the president of the FIA." :laugh:


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6055015.ece

Somebody's looking for a spanking. :eek:

[Tazio]

This speculation has been denied by one of the party's involved.

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/04/05/hamilton-not-quitting-says-mclaren/

We have yet to see contrary statements from the other party.

My post was not that Anthony & Son wanted to necessarily leave the team.
Not if they can worship at the church of Maximus. Hopefully receiving Extreme Unction! ;)

[Valve Bounce]

My post was not that Anthony & Son wanted to necessarily leave the team.
Not if they can worship at the church of Maximus. Hopefully receiving Extreme Unction! ;)

I don't think they apply Extreme Unction on the bum after a whipping, but you never know.

[Tazio]

I don't think they apply Extreme Unction on the bum after a whipping, but you never know.

:rotflmao: