Disrepute

[MrJan]

After Hamilton being docked points for 'bring the sport into disrepute', I've got to wondering what else in F1 could be charged with this. Personally I think that the rubbish about medals, the back tracking on rules and the stupid fuss about Spa last year bring far more disrepute on the sport than someone lying to the stewards.

[Dave B]

It also strikes me that if lying to the stewards is worthy of disqualification then the results of one or two recent championships should be under question. :\

[ioan]

Another thread trying to shift the blame on the FIA and the stewards.
Cheating and lying has to be punished, and beig disqualified from one race is way to little of a punishment.

[Tazio]

Bernie has contrived to sabotage his own sport. Being a very reputable and fair competition is so far down on his list it begs the question of how he hasn't already been overthrown. He is the problem. F1 needs an ownership that isn't Insane. Bernie is about 20 times as bad for F1 as Max. It is becomming very obvious that F1 needs a very strict set of standards and the personel to insure it. This thing with Hamilton will blow over. I already know I way over-reacted. But it's the sysytem, and you can't blame anyone but Bernie! I never thought such a naturally great form of competition would go down this path of deterioration!
Rant over! ;)

[Dave B]

Another thread trying to shift the blame on the FIA and the stewards.
No, it's a seperate thread discussing what else in F1 could be classed as disreputable. If you have nothing to contribute, go back to one of the many threads discussing the current situation at McLaren.

[ArrowsFA1]

Cheating and lying has to be punished, and beig disqualified from one race is way to little of a punishment.
Don't worry ioan, the FIA has Article 151c of the International Sporting Code primed and waiting, ready to be deployed.

[Dave B]

But not until June, apparently. A cynic might suggest the FIA are waiting to see how well Hamilton performs to guage just how much he needs punishing.

[71minus2]

May i remind people of 2006 Monaco.

(From Wikipedia)
The final qualifying session was overshadowed by Michael Schumacher's actions in the dying moments of the session as his rival, Fernando Alonso, was on a flying lap and was, at sector two, over two tenths of a second faster than the German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany). However, Schumacher stopped his car in the Rascasse corner after entering the corner too close to the inside barrier and had to take a late apex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apex) and compromised Alonso's lap. When asked about the incident, Schumacher responded by saying that he "locked up the front and went wide."[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Monaco_Grand_Prix#cite_note-11) The consensus in the paddock was that it was a deliberate act and the issue was raised with the race stewards. The stewards agreed and punished Schumacher by sending him to the back of the grid, alongside his teammate, making this the first time ever in the history of the sport that two Ferrari team cars would start a race on the back row. Ferrari's Managerial Director, Jean Todt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Todt), said that he was "disgusted" by the decision.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Monaco_Grand_Prix#cite_note-schumacher-drop-12) Steward Joaquin Verdegay commented, "He performed some absolutely unnecessary and pathetic counter-steering, and that lasted five metres, until there was no more chances of going through the turn normally. He lost control of the car while travelling at 16km/h. That's something completely unjustifiable."[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Monaco_Grand_Prix#cite_note-13)

The key points

1 - Schumacher stated he "locked up a tyre"
2 - That was then deemed to be incorrect and punished by having to start from the back of the grid.

OK, this is in qualifying so the stewards have the ability to sanction a punishment for that race not any following races, but the same thing applied. Schumacher LIED.

[christophulus]

Don't worry ioan, the FIA has Article 151c of the International Sporting Code primed and waiting, ready to be deployed.


PENALTIES
151. Breach of rules

Any of the following offences in addition to any offences
specifically referred to previously, shall be deemed to be a breach
of these rules :

c) Any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the
interests of any competition or to the interests of motor
sport generally.

Typical wishy-washy legal speak, which could feasibly apply to pretty much anything that has happened in F1 so far this season.

[Valve Bounce]

But not until June, apparently. A cynic might suggest the FIA are waiting to see how well Hamilton performs to guage just how much he needs punishing.

I think Bernie is busy working out hwow best to maximise the profits from the fallout before the FIA will take any action. Sure as hell they don't want Lewis Hamilton out of action because if somebody like bunsen beats him, there's even more moolah in the pot.

[ArrowsFA1]

But not until June, apparently. A cynic might suggest the FIA are waiting to see how well Hamilton performs to guage just how much he needs punishing.
The same cynic may suggest that it is entirely coincidental that the current FIA President has said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72559) he will decide whether to stand for another term or not in...you've guessed it...June.

[Tazio]

May i remind people of 2006 Monaco.

(From Wikipedia)
The final qualifying session was overshadowed by Michael Schumacher's actions in the dying moments of the session as his rival, Fernando Alonso, was on a flying lap and was, at sector two, over two tenths of a second faster than the German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany). However, Schumacher stopped his car in the Rascasse corner after entering the corner too close to the inside barrier and had to take a late apex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apex) and compromised Alonso's lap. When asked about the incident, Schumacher responded by saying that he "locked up the front and went wide."[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Monaco_Grand_Prix#cite_note-11) The consensus in the paddock was that it was a deliberate act and the issue was raised with the race stewards. The stewards agreed and punished Schumacher by sending him to the back of the grid, alongside his teammate, making this the first time ever in the history of the sport that two Ferrari team cars would start a race on the back row. Ferrari's Managerial Director, Jean Todt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Todt), said that he was "disgusted" by the decision.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Monaco_Grand_Prix#cite_note-schumacher-drop-12) Steward Joaquin Verdegay commented, "He performed some absolutely unnecessary and pathetic counter-steering, and that lasted five metres, until there was no more chances of going through the turn normally. He lost control of the car while travelling at 16km/h. That's something completely unjustifiable."[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Monaco_Grand_Prix#cite_note-13)

The key points

1 - Schumacher stated he "locked up a tyre"
2 - That was then deemed to be incorrect and punished by having to start from the back of the grid.

OK, this is in qualifying so the stewards have the ability to sanction a punishment for that race not any following races, but the same thing applied. Schumacher LIED.Thanks for bringing that up That's really relavent
Where does it say that the the team principal lied?
To put it in perspective, four years from now
noone but the anally retentive are going to be talking about this shenanigan! :dozey:

[F1boat]

Look, F1 is sport in which vast amounts of money are involved, as well as big egos. People lie, they try to find loopholes and to gain momentum. IMO when technical advantage is achieved with clever technology, like the diffusers, the J-dampers, or the flexible floors, it should be encouraged. When someone lies and cheats, he must be punished, like MS in Monaco or Lewis in Oz. However, it should be done QUICKLY and once a punishment is given, that's all. I remember a moment in the Kipling's "Jungle Book" - Mowgli made a mistake and than the panther beat him and that was the end of it. This Holy Inquisition against Hamilton, banning him form races, threatening him with more action in June (?!) is spectacularly stupid. This is the fastest sport on Earth and it needs fast and simple decision, who keep the bull*** out of track as much as possible.

[Big Ben]

good thread... pathetic reason though

[71minus2]

Thanks for bringing that up That's really relavent
Where does it say that the the team principal lied?
To put it in perspective, four years from now
noone but the anally retentive are going to be talking about this shenanigan! :dozey:

Its perfectly relevant as its a TEAM issue not an individual one so regardless of WHO tells the lie its punishable by the same set of rules.

Further (and i hope going back more than 4 years meets with your approval) James Allen has commented


"This situation reminds me a bit of Jerez in 1997. Michael Schumacher smashed into Jacques Villenueve in an attempt to win the world title.
He failed and there was a general outcry for him to be banned from the first few races of 1998.
Instead he was thrown out of the 1997 results, the idea being that it set a precedent for the future to ensure that no one would try that kind of thing again, knowing that the penalty was disqualification from that year’s championship.
At the time it was made quite clear by Bernie Ecclestone that there was no way F1 was going to start the 1998 season without its main box office draw. It would be commercial suicide and the same applies today."
Personally i would consider the errors of Australia over and the punishment dished out to be acceptable. Its just a shame that a season looking to be one of the most competitive for a long time has been marred by controversy with the points system and this.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Why not going with the way NASCAR have dealt with such thing. If someone bends the rules, they get points docked and a hefty fine. Why not, lets say dock him 10 or 15 points. That means, whatever he scores over the season, 10 or 15 points will be subtracted. That way he will still be able to compete, but he'll certainly feel the pain for his massive screwup with the stewards.

[F1boat]

Why not going with the way NASCAR have dealt with such thing. If someone bends the rules, they get points docked and a hefty fine. Why not, lets say dock him 10 or 15 points. That means, whatever he scores over the season, 10 or 15 points will be subtracted. That way he will still be able to compete, but he'll certainly feel the pain for his massive screwup with the stewards.

I agree. This is a great system and I like how it works in NASCAR and Grand-Am (which are also part of NASCAR, I think...)

[MrJan]

Another thread trying to shift the blame on the FIA and the stewards.
Cheating and lying has to be punished, and beig disqualified from one race is way to little of a punishment.

Read the post Ioan, I said nothing about my opinion on the Hamilton issue. It's a comment on what else in the sport has brought it into disrepute. It's amazing how many arguements you manage to create when there isn't an issue to argue about. If you must know I think that Hamilton should have been penalised, as should the team, but do feel it was a harsh decision. Of course if this sets a precident for similar events in the future then that is fine.

Schumachers move on Hill in Adelaide is another good example of disrepute, there are still people I speak to who refer to that when giving reasons why they don't like F1. Likewise the spying thing, both the spying itself and how it was dragged out. Oh and also the Button/Williams/Honda debacle.

[ATF]

When someone lies and cheats, he must be punished, like MS in Monaco or Lewis in Oz. However, it should be done QUICKLY and once a punishment is given, that's all.

Exactly the point. Footballers lie to officials all the time but at least you go away from the match knowing the result. The worst thing about all of this is it makes the sport look ridiculous when they keep changing the result.

[F1boat]

Exactly the point. Footballers lie to officials all the time but at least you go away from the match knowing the result. The worst thing about all of this is it makes the sport look ridiculous when they keep changing the result.

Yes, football is good example. When it is over, you must know the result :)

[PolePosition_1]

OK, this is in qualifying so the stewards have the ability to sanction a punishment for that race not any following races, but the same thing applied. Schumacher LIED.

Agreed, but I'm sure in this instance Ioan would some how find a way in which to reward Schumacher for it...

[AndyRAC]

Yes, football is good example. When it is over, you must know the result :)

Good point - whether you like it or not, that is one of the reasons football is the biggest sport on the planet. At the end of the game the result is final! Whether there were dodgy decisions or not -tough!
It just makes look the sport increasingly idiotic. Fine him, dock points, grid penalty - but the result stays the same.
When are the results final? How far back to you go?

[ArrowsFA1]

Exactly the point. Footballers lie to officials all the time but at least you go away from the match knowing the result. The worst thing about all of this is it makes the sport look ridiculous when they keep changing the result.
:up:

The FIA undermining their own official at the 2008 Belgian GP perhaps explains that same official saying nothing in response to McLaren's requests on Sunday. It also may have been a factor (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/) in Dave Ryan's decision making process.

That doesn't excuse anything, but it might help explain some of what we see going on.

[ioan]

May i remind people of 2006 Monaco.

(From Wikipedia)
The final qualifying session was overshadowed by Michael Schumacher's actions in the dying moments of the session as his rival, Fernando Alonso, was on a flying lap and was, at sector two, over two tenths of a second faster than the German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany). However, Schumacher stopped his car in the Rascasse corner after entering the corner too close to the inside barrier and had to take a late apex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apex) and compromised Alonso's lap. When asked about the incident, Schumacher responded by saying that he "locked up the front and went wide."[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Monaco_Grand_Prix#cite_note-11) The consensus in the paddock was that it was a deliberate act and the issue was raised with the race stewards. The stewards agreed and punished Schumacher by sending him to the back of the grid, alongside his teammate, making this the first time ever in the history of the sport that two Ferrari team cars would start a race on the back row. Ferrari's Managerial Director, Jean Todt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Todt), said that he was "disgusted" by the decision.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Monaco_Grand_Prix#cite_note-schumacher-drop-12) Steward Joaquin Verdegay commented, "He performed some absolutely unnecessary and pathetic counter-steering, and that lasted five metres, until there was no more chances of going through the turn normally. He lost control of the car while travelling at 16km/h. That's something completely unjustifiable."[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Monaco_Grand_Prix#cite_note-13)

The key points

1 - Schumacher stated he "locked up a tyre"
2 - That was then deemed to be incorrect and punished by having to start from the back of the grid.

OK, this is in qualifying so the stewards have the ability to sanction a punishment for that race not any following races, but the same thing applied. Schumacher LIED.

Wow, another Lewy and McLiars fanboy throwing some e around.

Schumacher was sent to the back of the grid because it was judged that he obstructed other competitors flying laps in qualifying.

Now, McLaren and Lewis were disqualified because they intentionally mislead the stewards! Or better said they lied!

Posting lies just shows how well adapted to the being a McLiars fan you are! :laugh:

[Dave B]

Wow, another Lewy and McLiars fanboy throwing some e around.

Schumacher was sent to the back of the grid because it was judged that he obstructed other competitors flying laps in qualifying.

Now, McLaren and Lewis were disqualified because they intentionally mislead the stewards! Or better said they lied!

Posting lies just shows how well adapted to the being a McLiars fan you are! :laugh:

Yes, but the point is that Schumacher stood in front of the Monaco stewards and told them it was a problem with the car. In other words, he lied. The FIA punished him - rightly - for his transgression on the track but did not penalise him for "deliberately misleading" the stewards.

There's no consistency in the FIA's actions, that's the big problem.

[MrJan]

Wow, another Lewy and McLiars fanboy throwing some e around.

Schumacher was sent to the back of the grid because it was judged that he obstructed other competitors flying laps in qualifying.

Now, McLaren and Lewis were disqualified because they intentionally mislead the stewards! Or better said they lied!

Posting lies just shows how well adapted to the being a McLiars fan you are! :laugh:

You must be dizzy from all that spin ioan. Lewis cheated and Michael cheated, man up and admit it.

[AndyRAC]

http://timesonline.typepad.com/formula_one/2009/04/some-people-are-on-the-pitchthey-think-its-all-overit-is-now-well-maybe.html

More football/Motorsport comparisons, slightly tongue in cheek I know.

[V12]

I think that article only scratches the surface TBH.

If Max ran football:

-Salary caps.

-Genetic engineering and cloning techniques in order to implement a "standard goalkeeper" and a "standard midfielder" which all teams must use.

-Teams must substitute their standard goalkeeper for a different erm... "compound" ;) of standard goalkeeper produced by Max's evil DNA labs at some point during every match. This "option" goalkeeper will have a green band around his head, because we're like saving the planet and stuff, yeahhhhh.

-Goals scored or matches won to determine the league champion, rather than the traditional points system.

-Limiting the top divisions to 12 teams on a "franchise" based system.

-All European games to be played in Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Singapore, Turkey or Malaysia.

-Teams can play with a 12th player if they want, but can only use him for 6.7 seconds every minute, and only for one season before we implement a "standard 12th player" along the lines of our standard goalkeeper and standard midfielder.

I could go on...

In football, a player who has commited a serious breach of bringing the sport into disrepute is banned for up to 6 months.

Eric Cantona being an example.

So, yes, let's have the FIA like UEFA.

[Dave B]

In football, a player who has commited a serious breach of bringing the sport into disrepute is banned for up to 6 months.

Eric Cantona being an example.

So, yes, let's have the FIA like UEFA.
Cantona assaulted a fan, a far more serious offence than anything Hamilton has been accused of. What Lewis did is more akin to diving to get a penalty awarded - which is at worst a yellow card offence in football.

[F1boat]

I think that article only scratches the surface TBH.

If Max ran football:

-Salary caps.

-Genetic engineering and cloning techniques in order to implement a "standard goalkeeper" and a "standard midfielder" which all teams must use.

-Teams must substitute their standard goalkeeper for a different erm... "compound" ;) of standard goalkeeper produced by Max's evil DNA labs at some point during every match. This "option" goalkeeper will have a green band around his head, because we're like saving the planet and stuff, yeahhhhh.

-Goals scored or matches won to determine the league champion, rather than the traditional points system.

-Limiting the top divisions to 12 teams on a "franchise" based system.

-All European games to be played in Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Singapore, Turkey or Malaysia.

-Teams can play with a 12th player if they want, but can only use him for 6.7 seconds every minute, and only for one season before we implement a "standard 12th player" along the lines of our standard goalkeeper and standard midfielder.

I could go on...

You made my day :)

[patnicholls]

Just when you thought Formula One had picked it's credibility up from absolute zero...

Inconsistency is a major issue, and simple wrong decisions - which there've been a ton of in recent memory concerning many drivers - are even worse.

The Massa/Bruno Senna pitlane release incidents last year are a startling example of inconsistency - Felipe/Ferrari were given a fairly paltry fine for their unsafe pit release in Valencia, and then a week later Bruno Senna was given a drive-through penalty for his very similar incident in Spa in the GP2 race, dropping him from the lead to well out of the points and ultimately leaving him up against it in terms of fighting for the title. No consistency.

The Vettel/Kubica incident with Seb being penalised ten spots on this weekend's grid is a simple wrong decision, and to be honest one showing no understanding of racing whatsoever. If you're going to completely change the technical regs in a bid to let people race-to-wheel, you've then got to let them actually do so! It was an entirely 50/50 incident and both drivers are already sufficiently punished enough by not finishing the event in the first place.

As for the 'big news' of this weekend, the whole debacle could have been avoided by the FIA having a look at the onboard footage (which they presumably have access to) whilst the cars were behind the safety car and clarifying it to the two teams in question as to what order they should be in. That isn't too much to ask. It is apparent from the pit radio etc and transcripts of what happened during the race that neither team knew what was supposed to be the order - it is the FIA's job to tell them in good time, and I can't possibly see how they couldn't manage that. What has happened since is as a result of the FIA/stewards abject incompetency at dealing with those situations at the time when they needed to be dealt with. No race should ever be settled in a boardroom - that's totally missing the point and shows things haven't been handled properly prior to that.

Obviously for someone in my position - I'm mostly over in the Bike Racing forum but have watched virtually every F1 race since 1994 along with a lot of all kinds of racing - controversy or no controversy (?) I'll still watch the races whatever happens. But for those dipping into F1 now-and-again, this kind of stuff is a real turn-off - I got a few friends who don't usually give F1 much of a look watching Spa last year for example, and they loved it...until a few days later, and haven't watched since.

[tintop]

Another thread trying to shift the blame on the FIA and the stewards.
Cheating and lying has to be punished, and beig disqualified from one race is way to little of a punishment.

You mean cheating and lying like this?

"Anyone who thinks that I deliberately wanted to wreck [Fernando] Alonso's lap is wrong," said Schumacher.
"And to those who think that, I can only say 'I'm sorry that it happened.'"

Whoops, and he managed to get a 5th place that weekend - far less penalty, I'd say. Lewis is clearly wrong and like Mikey before him, seems to still be denying it, but glass houses are dangerous places to launch morality campaigns from.

Sorry, can't be painted with a pro-Mclaren or pro Lewis or pro Brit brush either.

[ArrowsFA1]

Fernando Alonso summed up the way the FIA works after after qualifying for the Hungarian Grand Prix in 2007 when he said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61383):

"I think it's very funny. The penalty is not related to any specific rules. It's just one of those strange things that happen."

[SGWilko]

Fernando Alonso summed up the way the FIA works after after qualifying for the Hungarian Grand Prix in 2007 when he said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61383):

Arthur C Clarke eat yer heart out!!!

[ioan]

You mean cheating and lying like this?

"Anyone who thinks that I deliberately wanted to wreck [Fernando] Alonso's lap is wrong," said Schumacher.
"And to those who think that, I can only say 'I'm sorry that it happened.'"

Whoops, and he managed to get a 5th place that weekend - far less penalty, I'd say. Lewis is clearly wrong and like Mikey before him, seems to still be denying it, but glass houses are dangerous places to launch morality campaigns from.

Sorry, can't be painted with a pro-Mclaren or pro Lewis or pro Brit brush either.

I'm not sure if Pino will appreciate this continuous MS and Ferrari comments in this thread. You better watch out.

[Dave B]

I'm not sure if Pino will appreciate this continuous MS and Ferrari comments in this thread. You better watch out.
I thought that this was a thread specifically about other examples of bringing the sport into disrepute. But what would I know? Rather than play at being a moderator, report the post if you feel it breaches any rules. :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

Cantona assaulted a fan, a far more serious offence than anything Hamilton has been accused of. What Lewis did is more akin to diving to get a penalty awarded - which is at worst a yellow card offence in football.

Yeah but what Catona did was funny. I don't see myself watching Hamilton's pseudo apology on Youtube 10 years down the line and having a quiet giggle to myself.

[tintop]

I'm not sure if Pino will appreciate this continuous MS and Ferrari comments in this thread. You better watch out.

It's specifically a thread about drivers bringing the sport into disrepute: current and historical.

[Daniel]

It's specifically a thread about drivers bringing the sport into disrepute: current and historical.
It may be but those points seem to be brought up merely to deflect the limelight away from McLaren.

[tintop]

It may be but those points seem to be brought up merely to deflect the limelight away from McLaren.

Mclaren's punishment is already commensurate with their crime, all this other talk of banning and disrepute is just partisan crap.

[Daniel]

Mclaren's punishment is already commensurate with their crime, all this other talk of banning and disrepute is just partisan crap.
Hang 'em high I say. Hang 'em the **** high.

McLaren and Hamilton need to be punished so badly that they never consider doing anything dodgy again. That hundred mill back in 2007 was BS. They should have been banned then yet they were given the chance to fight for the title. They need to be given some meaningful punishment for the crime which is merely one of many......

[Sonic]

To me the worst part about this are the thousands of young fans who due to the LH effect have taken up Karting. Either they are going to be gutted their hero has lied through his teeth to gain a position that he was going to be given fair and square anyway, or more worryingly there will be some who see this as a witch hunt against their hero and believe that this is a proper way to go racing. What kind of drivers will we turn out in ten years time with an even more ruthless attitude?

[ioan]

Mclaren's punishment is already commensurate with their crime, all this other talk of banning and disrepute is just partisan crap.

Who are you to decide?!

If the FIA considers it fit than they will impose a few race bans on the team and/or the driver.

[THE_LIBERATOR]

Well I'll take a risk of mentioning a similar situation. The 1994 Belgian Grand Prix, Bennetton swore blind that a sectoin of the plank underneath the car had sustained damage in a spin across a curb. However the damage & the smooth edge of the alteration were very distinguishable. Clearly they lied to the stewards, & clearly they lost the points for that race.

Is that what should happen now, should McLaren lose only the Australian points? Or should Bennetton have recieved harsher penalties? hmm.

[ioan]

Well I'll take a risk of mentioning a similar situation. The 1994 Belgian Grand Prix, Bennetton swore blind that a sectoin of the plank underneath the car had sustained damage in a spin across a curb. However the damage & the smooth edge of the alteration were very distinguishable. Clearly they lied to the stewards, & clearly they lost the points for that race.

Is that what should happen now, should McLaren lose only the Australian points? Or should Bennetton have recieved harsher penalties? hmm.

They were disqualified because the plank was worn more than the allowed few millimeters, not because anyone has lied.

Next try, please.

[THE_LIBERATOR]

They were disqualified because the plank was worn more than the allowed few millimeters, not because anyone has lied.

Next try, please.I watched it, I have the news reports on a very old VHS tape. The clearly show the marks where the car went over the curb & the altered front end of the plank. I suggest you stop trying to rewrite history.

[ioan]

I watched it, I have the news reports on a very old VHS tape. The clearly show the marks where the car went over the curb & the altered front end of the plank. I suggest you stop trying to rewrite history.

You know what, you are rewriting everything to suit your POV.
I'll agree with you if you come up with the text of the FIA press release of the decision on that case and show us all where it says that they were disqualified for "lying" or "intentionally misleading"!

Until than as far as I know the terms "intentionally misleading" are specifically mentioned on the FIA release about the Hamilton/Trulli affair.

Good luck searching for evidence other than watching the race as I watched it too and there was nothing like what you are describing.

[THE_LIBERATOR]

You know what, you are rewriting everything to suit your POV.
I'll agree with you if you come up with the text of the FIA press release of the decision on that case and show us all where it says that they were disqualified for "lying" or "intentionally misleading"!

Until than as far as I know the terms "intentionally misleading" are specifically mentioned on the FIA release about the Hamilton/Trulli affair.

Good luck searching for evidence other than watching the race as I watched it too and there was nothing like what you are describing.Stating that damage was cause in a spin when it was in fact an aerodynamic aid is deliberatly misleading. If I had the facilities to transfer VHS to digital you would be watching it right now. It's merely to point out that misleading the stewards has been done before, & to point out the consequences of intentionally misleading the stewards in the past. It's relevent to the situation I feel.

[ioan]

Stating that damage was cause in a spin when it was in fact an aerodynamic aid is deliberatly misleading. If I had the facilities to transfer VHS to digital you would be watching it right now. It's merely to point out that misleading the stewards has been done before, & to point out the consequences of intentionally misleading the stewards in the past. It's relevent to the situation I feel.

As I pointed it out on the other thread the only other case when someone was punished for "lying" or "intentionally misleading" the stewards is Honda's case in 2005.

I understand that you believe that Benetton lied back than but there is no official statement saying that, because they were officially punished for having a plank that showed more wear than allowed by the rules.

I think we should stick to facts and not to our wishes and all will be just fine.

[THE_LIBERATOR]

I think we should stick to facts and not to our wishes and all will be just fine.Perhaps you should practice what you preach. Good night. :D

[mstillhere]

May i remind people of 2006 Monaco.

(From Wikipedia)
The final qualifying session was overshadowed by Michael Schumacher's actions in the dying moments of the session as his rival, Fernando Alonso, was on a flying lap and was, at sector two, over two tenths of a second faster than the German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany). However, Schumacher stopped his car in the Rascasse corner after entering the corner too close to the inside barrier and had to take a late apex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apex) and compromised Alonso's lap. When asked about the incident, Schumacher responded by saying that he "locked up the front and went wide."[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Monaco_Grand_Prix#cite_note-11) The consensus in the paddock was that it was a deliberate act and the issue was raised with the race stewards. The stewards agreed and punished Schumacher by sending him to the back of the grid, alongside his teammate, making this the first time ever in the history of the sport that two Ferrari team cars would start a race on the back row. Ferrari's Managerial Director, Jean Todt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Todt), said that he was "disgusted" by the decision.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Monaco_Grand_Prix#cite_note-schumacher-drop-12) Steward Joaquin Verdegay commented, "He performed some absolutely unnecessary and pathetic counter-steering, and that lasted five metres, until there was no more chances of going through the turn normally. He lost control of the car while travelling at 16km/h. That's something completely unjustifiable."[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Monaco_Grand_Prix#cite_note-13)

The key points

1 - Schumacher stated he "locked up a tyre"
2 - That was then deemed to be incorrect and punished by having to start from the back of the grid.

OK, this is in qualifying so the stewards have the ability to sanction a punishment for that race not any following races, but the same thing applied. Schumacher LIED.

I know you did not write all this to justify Hamilton and McLaren lies. You are talking about MS as an other example of people lying.

[mstillhere]

Agreed, but I'm sure in this instance Ioan would some how find a way in which to reward Schumacher for it...

I feel sorry for you people having to continously defend Hamilton and McLaren year after year. And I find it disturbing that every single time McLaren gets itself in trouble you McLaren lovers & Co. have to dragg MS and Ferrari in your postings. What's your point? Misery likes company?

Is it too hard for you Ferrari and MS bashers to refer to someone else and leave Ferrari and MS alone especially when FERRARI HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT HAPPENED TO MCLAREN AND LH? They did it to themselves! Period!

Talk about the FIA, their bosses, whoever and whatever, but stop bashing Ferrari and MS for no reason. Again, they have nothing to do with it. Unbeilivable.

[F1boat]

The big shame is that hours before the qualifying we are speaking about old men, who are about to sit on a table, preparing to change what will be achieved in Sunday.

[ioan]

Perhaps you should practice what you preach.

I do.



Good night. :D

I really do sleep well since I know justice was served. :p :

[rickos]

A fitting punishment would be to have Hammy drive the race with the KERS attached to his nuts.

[ioan]

I feel sorry for you people having to continously defend Hamilton and McLaren year after year. And I find it disturbing that every single time McLaren gets itself in trouble you McLaren lovers & Co. have to dragg MS and Ferrari in your postings. What's your point? Misery likes company?

Is it too hard for you Ferrari and MS bashers to refer to someone else and leave Ferrari and MS alone especially when FERRARI HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT HAPPENED TO MCLAREN AND LH? They did it to themselves! Period!

Talk about the FIA, their bosses, whoever and whatever, but stop bashing Ferrari and MS for no reason. Again, they have nothing to do with it. Unbeilivable.

Let them be mate, you can't change people who doesn't want to change, no matter if it's scientifically proven that it's white they will say it's black.

It really is useless and you are wasting precious time that will never come back!

Have a beer and prepare for a great qualifying and race! :)

[ioan]

The big shame is that hours before the qualifying we are speaking about old men, who are about to sit on a table, preparing to change what will be achieved in Sunday.

No one forces you to participate.
Stop whining and enjoy the GP week end.

[Bagwan]

A fitting punishment would be to have Hammy drive the race with the KERS attached to his nuts.

Rickos , man , you make me laugh .

It might make him faster , though . I imagine he want the race over a fast as possible .

You got Brawn stickers on that Merc yet ?

[Daniel]

Yeah but what Catona did was funny. I don't see myself watching Hamilton's pseudo apology on Youtube 10 years down the line and having a quiet giggle to myself.
Argh I meant Cantona! :mark:

[Tazio]

A fitting punishment would be to have Hammy drive the race with the KERS attached to his nuts. :rotflmao:

[F1boat]

No one forces you to participate.
Stop whining and enjoy the GP week end.

How can I enjoy the weekend when the result will be decided off track? Of course, I can ignore this, but for how long? Until I turn on the TV and find a thrilling duel between Piquet and Sutil for the victory? I am unhappy with the state of the sport and I have the right to voice my opinion!

[Dave B]

They [Benetton] were disqualified because the plank was worn more than the allowed few millimeters, not because anyone has lied.

Next try, please.
Yes, technically that was the reason for their DQ. But that's the entire problem, they did lie but weren't punished for it. There's no consistency. Either punish everybody or punish nobody, don't pick and choose.

[janneppi]

This mess is interesting looking at the past, we now have Hamilton and McLaren doing stupid things and getting punished, we have people thrashing them, we have people saying Ferrari or Schumacher did it too.

Not really that many years ago we had Ferrari and Schumacher doing stupid things and had people thrashing them, we also had people saying Senna did did it too.

Nothing changes. :p :

Here's a question for the elderly people on the board:
Who did people use as example when Senna lied? :D

[CNR]

Yes, technically that was the reason for their DQ. But that's the entire problem, they did lie but weren't punished for it. There's no consistency. Either punish everybody or punish nobody, don't pick and choose.

without being rude Benetton where not in a spygate 2 years before

Bruce McLaren would be turning in his grave

[Valve Bounce]

This mess is interesting looking at the past, we now have Hamilton and McLaren doing stupid things and getting punished, we have people thrashing them, we have people saying Ferrari or Schumacher did it too.

Not really that many years ago we had Ferrari and Schumacher doing stupid things and had people thrashing them, we also had people saying Senna did did it too.

Nothing changes. :p :

Here's a question for the elderly people on the board:
Who did people use as example when Senna lied? :D

Easy Peasy! : Pol Pot.

[Daniel]

Easy Peasy! : Pol Pot.
Is that the guy they named the noodles after? :confused:

[Valve Bounce]

Is that the guy they named the noodles after? :confused:

No that's the guy who made noodles out of a couple of million Cambodians.

[tintop]

Who are you to decide?!

If the FIA considers it fit than they will impose a few race bans on the team and/or the driver.

That first sentence is funny, I like it.

If the FIA decide to go beyond the initial punishment levied, then they would be inconsistent with previous punishments. It's an issue of precedence, I'll help you understand that concept if you'd like.

[MrJan]

Wow, this thread went off track, here's some more to add to my earlier list.

Max Moseley getting caught with his pants down, that brought quite a bit of disrepute to the sport.

Not old enough to remember it but read in Martin Brundle's book something about Tyrell having ballbearings in their water to add weight to the car for the final pitstop, that's fairly sneaky stuff.

The whole Hamilton/Alonso arguements of the other year, that left a bad taste in the mouth for many and most people who don't watch the sport just couldn't understand it.

Nigel Mansell - well he was (and is) just a cock, people like that spread disrepute :D

[SGWilko]

Nigel Mansell - well he was (and is) just a cock, people like that spread disrepute :D

Well, yes. But you gotta admit he was a fast cock, with a VERY large set of balls....... ;)

[markabilly]

mr. Bernei says: hamilton is "he is disappointed somebody has called him a liar when he isn't deliberately lying."

So when he is deliberately lieing, being called a cheat is okay.....hence to give the devil his due, he was deliberately lieing about what he knew about mac cheating and the incident with Freddie A at haungary, since he was clearly not upset and disappointed when accussed of such back then

[Tazio]

Lewis Hamilton=disrepute

Anthony Hamilton> disrepuke

[woody2goody]

This isn't Ferrari bashing or anything, but relating back to Austria 2002, breach of podium procedure is classed as bringing the sport into disrepute I'm sure. (However I wanted Rubens to stay on the top step :) )

Disrepute as such is someone's reputation being damaged, and in my eyes, McLaren's reputation has been worsened (not that it was good in my eyes to begin with) just as Ferrari's was to me from 2002 onwards.

As for Hamilton, it's disappointing to me that he went along with the misleading. But in some cases you have to listen to your employer sadly.

I personally think that medal system crap is the worst disrepute of them all. I'm enjoying this season so far more than any other for a long time, and I'm only watching it at all because the points system reverted.

[F1boat]

That's the tragedy, woody. The season is wonderful and the racing is amazing, and the FIA and the scandals are ruining it. First the winner-takes-all idea, then the diffuser farce (some teams upset that they can not dominate for decades), the scandal with Trulli and Lewis - I think that this is really sad for the sport. The racing is cool, but this is too much and I am not sure what I will watch today - F1 or LMS. If not the scandals, the choice would have been obvious...

[Dave B]

Today, Bernie Ecclestone's decision to hold the Malaysian GP in the evening has brought his sport into disrepute. I hope he disqualifies himself.

[F1boat]

Today, Bernie Ecclestone's decision to hold the Malaysian GP in the evening has brought his sport into disrepute. I hope he disqualifies himself.

Well said!

[MrJan]

Well, yes. But you gotta admit he was a fast cock, with a VERY large set of balls....... ;)

The stories I've heard about him since then discredit it all in my mind. People I know who have worked out at his golf course in Devon say that he won't give them the time of day. Likewise if he wants a round of golf then he would chuck everyone off the course so he can have it all to himself.

Arrogant sod all in all.

[71minus2]

Wow, another Lewy and McLiars fanboy throwing some e around.

Schumacher was sent to the back of the grid because it was judged that he obstructed other competitors flying laps in qualifying.

Now, McLaren and Lewis were disqualified because they intentionally mislead the stewards! Or better said they lied!

Posting lies just shows how well adapted to the being a McLiars fan you are! :laugh:

Ioan, do you think that being abusive is a productive and effective way of getting your point across?

I'm an F1 fan NOT a team or driver fan. Maybe you assume that because i'm English i support Hamilton. More fool you son! I actually agree that the sanctions so far are justified but shouldn't be taken further a it could be detrimental to the sport.

I was simply adding a new angle on a very valid and pertinent point (as stated by others), well at least it was until you came along with your putrid comments!

And there was me about to say to Pole Position 1 that his comments were a personal attack on you and not justified on this thread. How wrong was I, you need to grow up and see the wider picture.

[Valve Bounce]

Let it go man!! just let it go!!

[ioan]

Let it go man!! just let it go!!

They just can't! ;)

[tintop]

They just can't! ;)
...stop referencing facts and uncomfortable precedents of similar and greater transgressions in the past. None, they might add, resulted in more severe penalties than those already meted out by the FIA. Hopefully letting it go is a reference to the futility of dealing with the irrational rather than a verdict on the counter-argument. ;)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Far be it for me to jump in late normally, but lets just say that when it comes To Lewis Hamilton, the powers that be seem to be quite anxious to find fault, and with Schey, they often looked the other way or minimized some of his transgressions. Now, I wouldn't want to defend Hamilton's lying to the Stewards but as someone who has sat in a steward's meeting at the races at the local level, drivers are infamous for creating their own reality.....so just making a decision and making it final is the best for all involved. This putting Hamilton on watch is just BS.