The Twilight Race

[Valve Bounce]

So, what do you guys and gals think of the twilight race? I had predicted visual issues and bunsen confirmed that. He stated that it was difficult to race under these conditions because he couldn't judge the exits of the corners, and visibility was often difficult. The entire southern section of the track had corners going into the sun, and the main straight headed into the sunset.

I had predicted a monumental first corner prang and that almost happened. Also, the TV footage was evidenced by very bad reflections off the road and the cars were difficult to make out whenever the camera pointed towards the sun.

Nevertheless, Bernie got what he wanted - an much increased viewer audience in Europe.

So, tell me your thoughts.

[wedge]

If Indycars, NASCAR and endurance racers are fine with it I can't see why F1 has to complain.

[LiamM]

Cos F1 does it to be kind to people in far away lands. In my view the Australian GP is for Australians and as such should be at a time to suit them. The BBC still showed it at 1pm like normal so would have still caught the off-chance viewers, just meant the die hard few of us got a bit extra sleep

[Valve Bounce]

If Indycars, NASCAR and endurance racers are fine with it I can't see why F1 has to complain.

Don't ask me - ask Bunsen. He was the one who said it was difficult to see. Maybe he knows very little about motor racing. :rolleyes:

[dj_bytedisaster]

If Indycars, NASCAR and endurance racers are fine with it I can't see why F1 has to complain.

Indycars and NASCAR seldomly race in the twilight hours. most of the time they either race at day or at night. And why is it that most crashes in the 24h classics happen in the twilight hours both evening and early morning. coincidence?

For me the later showing was sort of a turn-off. It was always part of the appeal of the season opener, that you had to get up at a completely unholy time (usually 4am) to see the race and if you couldn't be bothered to get up, or like my dad chronically fell asleep again ( :laugh: @ me ol' man ) you could still catch the repeat at noon.

For me this was a prime example of Bernie putting financial interests over safety and comfort of the drivers. And I don't think it wasn't any help fro australian spectators who didn't happen to live in Melbourne. Usually with the race being over at 3pm, you could (theoretically) get to the airport fly home and still be at work in time on monday morning. That was quite a bit harder if not impossible for some folk this year, I suspect.

But everything that pleases the midgets wallet will be done and if that means racing naked, prepare for seeing more man skin than you'd have liked ;)

[GP-M3]

I was hoping someone would be talking about this. The main issue is, THE TV PICTURES LOOKED LIKE CR*P!!

Everytime I saw the lousy pictures, and it was most of the time, I was cursing Bernie. What a stupid little greedy fellow.

I stopped watching F1 for many years when the FOCA/FISA wars started. Since I've been back, I've stayed out of the Max / Bernie bashing. But that little midget has gone over the top now.

One of the real beauties of formula 1, is the majesty of it all, the colors in particular. It wasn't until I looked at some still pictures on the day after the race, that I realized the Virgin logo was in red. This is by far the worst looking TV coverage of a major event I've ever seen.

So the small minded moron got better TV times for the Euro viewers, and ended up giving them cr@p to look at. What a bad trade off. They can always record the event. I record essentially every race here in So Cal, 90% of TV viewers time shift their favorite shows. Bernie is so old fashioned, I really think he has become a detriment to F1. Most of us use DVRs now, perhaps Bernie will discover the VHS machine soon!

This all, and not to mention the extra dangers he has put before the drivers. Really poor show.

Thanks for the thread, I wanted to vent that.

[ArrowsFA1]

Nevertheless, Bernie got what he wanted - an much increased viewer audience in Europe.
Did he though? Were there really more European viewers this year? Also, did the change in start time affect audiences elsewhere?

[Dave B]

In the UK the viewing figures were well up on last year*, but whether that's entirely down to the timing is unknown as we also had a new broadcaster and a British champion skewing the experiment.

Towards the end of the race the setting sun did cause some problems for TV viewers: Martin Brundle in the commentary box couldn't distinguish between a yellow and green flag, for example; and the lens flare on the onboard cameras was offputting.

For me, there's something special about getting up in the middle of the night for the first GP of the year, I'd happily get up at 2am (and did for FP1 & 3).

(The live coverage of the race was 159% up on 2008, the replay 25% down, overall 7% up. [source] (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=31621573&postcount=5492))

[Mark]

BBC coverage, much hyped season, Button on pole, Hamilton as world champion. Of course the viewing figures will be up!

And, sure a 7am start is going to get more viewers than 4am but it's still rather too early! :p

[AndyRAC]

BBC coverage, much hyped season, Button on pole, Hamilton as world champion. Of course the viewing figures will be up!

And, sure a 7am start is going to get more viewers than 4am but it's still rather too early! :p

Too early??
Part of the appeal of the Australian GP is getting up at silly o'clock to watch it. I don't agree with holding races to suit the European audience. Leave it as it was.

Bernie$£$£$£$£$£

[Mark]

Too early??
Part of the appeal of the Australian GP is getting up at silly o'clock to watch it. I don't agree with holding races to suit the European audience. Leave it as it was.

Bernie$£$£$£$£$£

What I mean is 4am, 7am, makes no difference to me, I'm still going to Sky+ it ;) . I used to get up at 4am, but I like my bed too much these days ;) .

(I usually get up at 5.30am for work so my weekends are important!)

[wedge]

Indycars and NASCAR seldomly race in the twilight hours. most of the time they either race at day or at night.

Some NASCAR races are raced in twilight. Homestead starts in the afternoon and ends at night, California starts at twilight. Some occasions the sun will glare into the drivers into the late afternoon. They don't complain, fans don't complain so I can't see why F1 has to be special.

Another thing is no one appreciated the track conditions which kept changing because the temperatures were dropping constantly and would've kept the teams and drivers on their toes whereas racing in the European afternoon the temperature is more likely to remain stable by a couple of degrees.

[big_sw2000]

Some NASCAR races are raced in twilight. Homestead starts in the afternoon and ends at night, California starts at twilight. Some occasions the sun will glare into the drivers into the late afternoon. They don't complain, fans don't complain so I can't see why F1 has to be special.

Another thing is no one appreciated the track conditions which kept changing because the temperatures were dropping constantly and would've kept the teams and drivers on their toes whereas racing in the European afternoon the temperature is more likely to remain stable by a couple of degrees.
Also 1000km sportcar races in old Group C or LMS start early afternoon, and run into the twilight.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Some NASCAR races are raced in twilight. Homestead starts in the afternoon and ends at night, California starts at twilight. Some occasions the sun will glare into the drivers into the late afternoon. They don't complain, fans don't complain so I can't see why F1 has to be special.


Big wow. Well there aint gonna be no blind corner entries in Homestead or Fontana, are they. In fact you dont have to worry about corners at all - theres just 3 or 4 of 'em and they all go left ;)
And with the stadium'esqe high grandstands around the bowls I doubt that a low standing sun can even shine them in the face ?
You cannot compare an Oval race in tintops with an openwheeler race on a temporary road circuit.

[555-04Q2]

If Indycars, NASCAR and endurance racers are fine with it I can't see why F1 has to complain.

Do they have sunlight coming through trees at intermittant time, shadows from the trees on the track :?: I'm not aware of any Indy or NASCAR races run on a prk road that provides what the F1 drivers had to go through.

[big_sw2000]

Do they have sunlight coming through trees at intermittant time, shadows from the trees on the track :?: I'm not aware of any Indy or NASCAR races run on a prk road that provides what the F1 drivers had to go through.
They are F1 drivers should be the best in the world. They should get on with it and shut up

[ShiftingGears]

It'd be better for the drivers if it was a normal start time, but I thought the 5:00 start was pretty good since it's not in the middle of the day when I could be doing other things.

[ioan]

Indycars and NASCAR seldomly race in the twilight hours. most of the time they either race at day or at night. And why is it that most crashes in the 24h classics happen in the twilight hours both evening and early morning. coincidence?

For me the later showing was sort of a turn-off. It was always part of the appeal of the season opener, that you had to get up at a completely unholy time (usually 4am) to see the race and if you couldn't be bothered to get up, or like my dad chronically fell asleep again ( :laugh: @ me ol' man ) you could still catch the repeat at noon.

For me this was a prime example of Bernie putting financial interests over safety and comfort of the drivers. And I don't think it wasn't any help fro australian spectators who didn't happen to live in Melbourne. Usually with the race being over at 3pm, you could (theoretically) get to the airport fly home and still be at work in time on monday morning. That was quite a bit harder if not impossible for some folk this year, I suspect.

But everything that pleases the midgets wallet will be done and if that means racing naked, prepare for seeing more man skin than you'd have liked ;)

Completely agree.

[Sonic]

They are F1 drivers should be the best in the world. They should get on with it and shut up

Agreed. I've done a few twilight races and whilst its a pain in the a$$ driving into the sunset, its the same for everyone.

Personally I quite liked the start time, especially on a weekend where the clocks went forward.

[christophulus]

I honestly couldn't tell it was a twilight race, there were no real incidents that could be attributed to poor light and it looked to me exactly the same as a full daytime race.

I'd rather get up at 7am than 4am but then it shouldn't really be altered for European audiences. The Aus GP organisers were billing the race as an all day event for the fans with the highlight being the F1 at 5pm, which sounds like a great idea but no idea how it worked in reality?

I am slightly concerned about this weekend though, as are the drivers. If it rains, and gets dark quickly, and if there's a lengthy red flag it could feasibly be abandoned due to poor light. Not what we need for the second race of the year really!

[Valve Bounce]

Some NASCAR races are raced in twilight. Homestead starts in the afternoon and ends at night, California starts at twilight. Some occasions the sun will glare into the drivers into the late afternoon. They don't complain, fans don't complain so I can't see why F1 has to be special.

.

WELL!! Maybe bunsen is a softy. What do you reckon?

Or maybe some of the NASCAR races are run on ovals where the cars just go round and round and they don't have to worry about apices, turn in, and exiting the turns, which are all different; except when you go round the course again, where you go through the same corners. Then, of course, maybe somebody told bunsen about the kangaroos which sometimes jump onto our race tracks here down under.

[Valve Bounce]

They are F1 drivers should be the best in the world. They should get on with it and shut up

Right!! that proves bunsen is a softy. :crazy:

[Mark]

It's one of the reason the evening / night races were stopped in the BTCC. With day races it's perfectly possible for fans to travel upto a couple of hundred miles to the track to see the racing, and then drive home in time for bed. But if the race is late on, it's impossible to get home at a decent hour, requiring hotels etc, which often puts a race beyond your budget so you don't go.

[Valve Bounce]

Agreed. I've done a few twilight races and whilst its a pain in the a$$ driving into the sunset, its the same for everyone.

Personally I quite liked the start time, especially on a weekend where the clocks went forward.

Did you think the clocks normally go backwards down under? :p : :rotflmao:

[Sonic]

Did you think the clocks normally go backwards down under? :p : :rotflmao:

I thought you guys still told time with the sun and a tall stone :p :

[Valve Bounce]

I thought you guys still told time with the sun and a tall stone :p :

You Scots still believe tall stories?? :p :

[big_sw2000]

I have had no sarcastic comments about sportcar racing, 1000kms races going into the twilight. They normally start at 1pm, and run for about 6hours.
No complaining from the drivers.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Did you think the clocks normally go backwards down under? :p : :rotflmao:

What he was talking about was the daylight savings time (or whatever it is called in english). On Sunday at 2am the clocks where fast forwarded to 3am. On the last sunday in october at 3am the clock will be wound back to 2am again, so basically an hour disappeared on sunday and will be corrected by a groundhog-day'ish double-hour between 2am->3am << 2am->3am :D

[V12]

Well obviously as a European I preferred the race at the time it used to be at - and it sounds like the drivers preferred it when it was too.

Bernie - stick this in the bin with your medals please.

[big_sw2000]

Well obviously as a European I preferred the race at the time it used to be at - and it sounds like the drivers preferred it when it was too.

Bernie - stick this in the bin with your medals please.
WHY at stupid oclock in the morning.
But its Austrailers race and it should be suited to them

[emporer_k]

I much prefer the 7 am start time. Once upon a time I used to get up at whenever o clock to watch the race but stopped once I started my job but 7 is manageable.

Would holding the race a month or so earlier make much difference when it comes to drivers having sun in their eyes ?

[V12]

WHY at stupid oclock in the morning.

Because I'm only 25 and I find it easier to stay up till 3am on a Saturday night (OK technically Sunday morning), than get up at 6am on a Sunday morning. Yes the clocks going forward helped big time (I stayed up all night in the end) but still...

Plus the first race of the season...maybe I'm on my own here but surely its not too abnormal to be just plain too excited to sleep?

I was initially under the impression the later time was because the Australians wanted it, but then I found out they'd prefer their normal time and the later time was just a compromise against going to a night race. And the drivers don't like it either. So apart from European weekend early-birds who exactly does?

And no I don't want it to be a night race either. The early hours Australian GP has been a tradition for me since 1992, sounds lame I know but it was part of the magic and the experience for me, then Bernie once again being stubborn and obtuse for no reason comes and f-s it all up :(

[BDunnell]

I suppose we will have to wait to see the viewing figures in Europe before deciding whether Bernie had a point. Personally, I wish he would stop messing for the sake of it, but equally I can't help thinking that the drivers should be able to put up with different lighting conditions, just as they have to put up with heavy rain on occasion. I would hate F1 to ever stop racing in the rain.

[big_sw2000]

I belive viewing figures will be up. As it suited me being on at a half normal time. But at the end of the day, it Australias race, so should be on at what ever time suits them. And i agree wwith this.
BUt from Bernies view, europeans are the main viewers of F1, so why not suit it to them to get better viewing figures.

[Tazio]

IMO The races should be held at the same time of day(roughly) at every venue,
regardless of what time that translate to in any other part of the universe!


http://crazycrashes.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/race-car-crash-engulfed-by-flames.jpg

[ioan]

I suppose we will have to wait to see the viewing figures in Europe before deciding whether Bernie had a point.


Do you think that many non-die hard F1 fans woke up at 7 am (actually 6am given the time change) to watch something they aren't really interested in?!

I already said it and will do it again, I would prefer to have races end before 6am or start after 20 am, so that I can make something of my Sundays. Luckily it's only every 2nd week or so otherwise my GF would have left me already a few years ago.

[BDunnell]

Do you think that many non-die hard F1 fans woke up at 7 am (actually 6am given the time change) to watch something they aren't really interested in?!

Certainly not.

[AndyRAC]

Do you think that many non-die hard F1 fans woke up at 7 am (actually 6am given the time change) to watch something they aren't really interested in?!

I already said it and will do it again, I would prefer to have races end before 6am or start after 20 am, so that I can make something of my Sundays. Luckily it's only every 2nd week or so otherwise my GF would have left me already a few years ago.

Who cares about the non-die hards? Forget about them - think about the proper fans instead. They tried that with WRC, and it didn't work.

[Valve Bounce]

I have had no sarcastic comments about sportcar racing, 1000kms races going into the twilight. They normally start at 1pm, and run for about 6hours.
No complaining from the drivers.



Well, you've come to the right place - just give me a few moments to sort out my sarcasms!! :p :

[Valve Bounce]

What he was talking about was the daylight savings time (or whatever it is called in english). On Sunday at 2am the clocks where fast forwarded to 3am. On the last sunday in october at 3am the clock will be wound back to 2am again, so basically an hour disappeared on sunday and will be corrected by a groundhog-day'ish double-hour between 2am->3am << 2am->3am :D

Thank you for your kind explanation. For awhile, I was trying to figure out how to read the time while standing on my head. :D :rotflmao:

[BDunnell]

Who cares about the non-die hards? Forget about them - think about the proper fans instead. They tried that with WRC, and it didn't work.

I should think that any sport has to hope to attract new fans somehow — they can't all be the children of existing fans! The problem is doing so without ruining the ethos of the sport. WRC has got it badly wrong. In fact, F1 has probably done fairly well so far, in comparison, as much as the new venues have tended to be forgettable by comparison with such as Spa, Melbourne and Silverstone.

[big_sw2000]

Thank you for your kind explanation. For awhile, I was trying to figure out how to read the time while standing on my head. :D :rotflmao:
Oh yes some Aussie Wit :laugh: :s mash:

[V12]

I agree any sport needs new blood, but it shouldn't seek to get it by pretending it's something it's not (like the WRC example already mentioned)

At the end of the day motor sport will never be as popular as the likes of football, it's always been a minority interest sport. Quite a big minority, but a minority nontheless. I've managed to get friends, partners, family members into watching motorsport in the past, and that's what needs to be done. People need to be converted, not have the sport itself converted so that people who otherwise wouldn't give a rat's ass, do.

[wedge]

Big wow. Well there aint gonna be no blind corner entries in Homestead or Fontana, are they. In fact you dont have to worry about corners at all - theres just 3 or 4 of 'em and they all go left ;)
And with the stadium'esqe high grandstands around the bowls I doubt that a low standing sun can even shine them in the face ?


Yes it can. You can be staring straight into the sun and try to pick you corner entry, race wheel to wheel.


WELL!! Maybe bunsen is a softy. What do you reckon?

Agreed! In fact I'd go far as to say the GPDA are a soft. Race tracks today are billiard smooth compared to yesteryears thanks to the GPDA.

[Valve Bounce]

Yes it can. You can be staring straight into the sun and try to pick you corner entry, race wheel to wheel.



Agreed! In fact I'd go far as to say the GPDA are a soft. Race tracks today are billiard smooth compared to yesteryears thanks to the GPDA.

Yeah!! you'd think these sissies would stop moaning and just let the rigid suspension chuck them around. I mean, while the real men have to sit up to race, these sissies are actually lying on their backs. And the get paid squillions for doing just that - lying down on the job. :rolleyes: :eek:

[ioan]

Certainly not.

Than nothing changed, cause the real F1 fans were staying up or waking up in the middle of the night for so many years already.

[ioan]

Yes it can. You can be staring straight into the sun and try to pick you corner entry, race wheel to wheel.

I wish you stopped talking about things you never tried to do.
Driving in the twilight is dangerous even in road cars that barely go 60mph, don't have uncovered wheels and are not racing anyone.

[ArrowsFA1]

...I can't help thinking that the drivers should be able to put up with different lighting conditions, just as they have to put up with heavy rain on occasion. I would hate F1 to ever stop racing in the rain.
Nico Rosberg is one driver who considers twilight races dangerous:

"I think twilight racing is not the way to go. In Melbourne it was obvious that it just increases the danger so much. The visibility is so difficult, you can't even see the edges of the track in some corners. I was driving into the sun and that's not what racing is about. So I really hope they reconsider that."
He also thinks the Malaysian GP could be stopped if a monsoon hits the circuit:

"If the monsoon comes down, the race is going to have to be stopped because we can't race and drive with that amount of water."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74114

Wonder what his Dad thinks about that having been the winner of the 1978 International Trophy in very wet conditions.

[Valve Bounce]

Rosberg admitted driving with so many shadows on track was very tricky and dangerous.

"I think twilight racing is not the way to go. In Melbourne it was obvious that it just increases the danger so much.

"The visibility is so difficult, you can't even see the edges of the track in some corners. I was driving into the sun and that's not what racing is about. So I really hope they reconsider that.

Another sissy. You'd wonder what F1, the pinnacle is really all about. I mean complaining about a Sunday drive through those beautiful Ozzy trees next to that lovely lake filled with Black Swans and other birds, what more do you want??

[big_sw2000]

Ok what was the time in Aussie time, at the end of the race, and what time was sunset.
Maybe Valve Bounce was looking at his sundial standing on his head.
I still think the drivers should shut up moaning and drive to the conditions

[ioan]

I still think the drivers should shut up moaning and drive to the conditions

Does dangerous ring a bell?!

[Valve Bounce]

Ok what was the time in Aussie time, at the end of the race, and what time was sunset.
Maybe Valve Bounce was looking at his sundial standing on his head.
I still think the drivers should shut up moaning and drive to the conditions

Look at it this way: I have driven down the main straight at 40 kph (speed limit) and visibility is very poor as the sun is right in my face.

For all those, including the wedge who think F1 racing under these conditions is not dangerous, I'd like to see you going down that straight at 100MPH at half an hour before sunset. Talk's cheap!!

[Knock-on]

I don't see the need for a Twilight race and agree that it offers an added element of risk.

With such a highly publicised start to the season, (change of regs to increase overtaking, push to pass, Button on Poll, a new team brawn from the ashes and confusers plastered all over the press), I cannot see how they though viewing figures in the UK would not go up.

But, I don't think the changed time slot would detrimentally affect them.

[big_sw2000]

Does dangerous ring a bell?!
How do sport car drivers in the LMS cope, are they better drivers or do the just get on with it.
Im not talking 24hours now, i mean the 1000km 6 hour races, that start at 2pm and run 8pm twilight.
And plus i do think its dangerous.
So are evening stages in the WRC. But they cope as well

[BDunnell]

I don't see the need for a Twilight race and agree that it offers an added element of risk.

So does rain, and I hope you wouldn't advocate stopping a race because of anything other than genuinely unsafe amounts of rain.

[big_sw2000]

So does rain, and I hope you wouldn't advocate stopping a race because of anything other than genuinely unsafe amounts of rain.
I do understand the need to stop in monsoon conditions, but normal rain then race on

[Knock-on]

So does rain, and I hope you wouldn't advocate stopping a race because of anything other than genuinely unsafe amounts of rain.

Rain isn't artificially created and is a changing condition on the day whereas twighlight racing is an added element of risk that doesn't need to be introduced in my opinion.

[wedge]

Yeah!! you'd think these sissies would stop moaning and just let the rigid suspension chuck them around. I mean, while the real men have to sit up to race, these sissies are actually lying on their backs. And the get paid squillions for doing just that - lying down on the job. :rolleyes: :eek:

Of course. Kimi has often said he wished racing in the 1970s and not born in the 70s.

[wedge]

Rain isn't artificially created and is a changing condition on the day whereas twighlight racing is an added element of risk that doesn't need to be introduced in my opinion.

Twilight is a changing condition. The sun will be setting and the track temperature be dropping.

Racing in the wet is arguably more dangerous because the changing conditions are unpredictable.

[Knock-on]

Twilight is a changing condition. The sun will be setting and the track temperature be dropping.

Racing in the wet is arguably more dangerous because the changing conditions are unpredictable.

Driving in the wet is a skill that differentiated drivers. What does driving in twilight prove? That someone has a better visor?

Then you have driving in the wet on a twilight track where visibility is close to night???

Where does it stop? Driving at night with no lights relying on "the force" like Luke Skywalker?

Rain has always been a part of racing and the risk is unavoidable unless you want to cancel the race. Twilight racing adds nothing for me except additional risk for no obvious benefit.

[wedge]

Driving in the wet is a skill that differentiated drivers. What does driving in twilight prove?

Both one and the same IMHO. Drivers have to cope best with conditions given.

And it was not as if we had half a dozen cars on the wrong tyres spinning and crashing left, right and centre at the end of the race, as what would've happened during a wet race.

[wedge]

I wish you stopped talking about things you never tried to do.
Driving in the twilight is dangerous even in road cars that barely go 60mph, don't have uncovered wheels and are not racing anyone.

Stirling Moss and Jackie Stewart have opposing views regarding risk and safety in motor racing.

[555-04Q2]

They are F1 drivers should be the best in the world. They should get on with it and shut up

Sure they are F1 drivers, their reflexes may be better than mine and yours, but their eyesight is the same as everyone else in the world. I know how hard it is to see into a setting sun when driving at 50 km/h in my car, I wouldnt want to do it at 300 km/h.

[big_sw2000]

Sure they are F1 drivers, their reflexes may be better than mine and yours, but their eyesight is the same as everyone else in the world. I know how hard it is to see into a setting sun when driving at 50 km/h in my car, I wouldnt want to do it at 300 km/h.
Look back over the last page, there are other formus of Motorsport, LMS that run in the twlight, every race. 1000km and 24 hours.
Im sure the sun sets at Silverstone at the end of the 1000km 6 hour race.

[555-04Q2]

Look back over the last page, there are other formus of Motorsport, LMS that run in the twlight, every race. 1000km and 24 hours.
Im sure the sun sets at Silverstone at the end of the 1000km 6 hour race.

I'm not arguing that fact, just commenting that it is bloody difficult to see into a setting sun in a normal car at road speeds, hence it must be a nigtmare for drivers in any racing formula (esprcially in quick F1 cars) to race at the speeds they do into a setting/twilight sun.

[MrJan]

What's all this "part of the Aussie GP is getting up early"? No it isn't, the Aussie GP is all about not turning on the radio or TV or going on any internet forums until the replay starts :D :D

[Valve Bounce]

Of course. Kimi has often said he wished racing in the 1970s .............

So do I man, so do I. :(

[Mark]

Yep, I hate driving into a setting sun, quite often I can't see anything. It's bad enough at 70mph, but at 170mph?!

Let's next have them driving at night, in a hurricane, during a storm surge, that'll sort out the real drivers :mark:

[Valve Bounce]

..............but I'd rather be born in the 70's :( :(

[Tazio]

Yep, I hate driving into a setting sun, quite often I can't see anything. It's bad enough at 70mph, but at 170mph?!

Let's next have them driving at night, in a hurricane, during a storm surge, on Acid, that'll sort out the real drivers :mark: :p :

[wedge]

I'm not arguing that fact, just commenting that it is bloody difficult to see into a setting sun in a normal car at road speeds, hence it must be a nigtmare for drivers in any racing formula (esprcially in quick F1 cars) to race at the speeds they do into a setting/twilight sun.

It's bad enough driving on the motorway, freeway, autobahn in the wet but racing!

[ioan]

How do sport car drivers in the LMS cope, are they better drivers or do the just get on with it.
Im not talking 24hours now, i mean the 1000km 6 hour races, that start at 2pm and run 8pm twilight.
And plus i do think its dangerous.
So are evening stages in the WRC. But they cope as well

First of all they have lights on the cars, and this compensates a lot for the loss of visual acuity due to the sun's direct frontal light.
The same head lights are very useful when running along trees that produce a stroboscope effect.
Second, they also have windshields that do have all the upper part (down to a certain level function of the drivers viewing angle) specially treated to stop the sunlight from getting into the drivers eyes. This reduces the time they will get direct frontal sunlight quite a lot.

[big_sw2000]

First of all they have lights on the cars, and this compensates a lot for the loss of visual acuity due to the sun's direct frontal light.
The same head lights are very useful when running along trees that produce a stroboscope effect.
Second, they also have windshields that do have all the upper part (down to a certain level function of the drivers viewing angle) specially treated to stop the sunlight from getting into the drivers eyes. This reduces the time they will get direct frontal sunlight quite a lot.
Ok your car has headlight, but you complain about driving in to the sun.
And not many Audi r15, or other LMS cars have windscreen.

[ioan]

Stirling Moss and Jackie Stewart have opposing views regarding risk and safety in motor racing.

Yeah, and interesting enough the one who doesn't fear anything (or so he says) never managed to win the title, while the one who had a more knowledgeable approach did win it several times.

[ioan]

Ok your car has headlight, but you complain about driving in to the sun.
And not many Audi r15, or other LMS cars have windscreen.

They still all have headlights, and that helps a lot to see something of what is in the shade behind the blinding rays of a setting sun.
As far as I remember they all turn their light on long before it's dark during the endurance races.

[big_sw2000]

They still all have headlights, and that helps a lot to see something of what is in the shade behind the blinding rays of a setting sun.
As far as I remember they all turn their light on long before it's dark during the endurance races.
I have no argument against that :)

[Sonic]

No one has mentioned that the helmets visors are very effective at dimming the glare. The advertising strip at the top of the visor also casts a shadow over the eyes.

Having read all the posts here and some whinging drivers comments I really can't see what all the fuss is about

[ArrowsFA1]

Yeah, and interesting enough the one who doesn't fear anything (or so he says) never managed to win the title...
I don't recall seeing a quote from him saying that. Perhaps you have a link?

I do remember him saying modern Formula 1 is about as dangerous - and about as dramatic - as tight-rope walking one foot above the living room carpet. In his day it was like tight-rope walking over the Niagra Falls.

His point being that while the skill required to walk the tightrope was exactly the same, the challenge of doing so was entirely different.

[big_sw2000]

No one has mentioned that the helmets visors are very effective at dimming the glare. The advertising strip at the top of the visor also casts a shadow over the eyes.

Having read all the posts here and some whinging drivers comments I really can't see what all the fuss is about
Excellent point

[BDunnell]

Yeah, and interesting enough the one who doesn't fear anything (or so he says) never managed to win the title, while the one who had a more knowledgeable approach did win it several times.

I don't think their attitudes to safety had anything to do with their comparative levels of success. Times actually changed substantially in F1 between the end of Moss' career and the start of Stewart's safety crusade. The 'carefree' era had come to an end and people were beginning to realise that there was a different way of doing things that didn't have to involve so many fatalities. But there is no way, in my view, that Moss' failure to win the title was in the slightest bit due to his not taking safety as seriously as Stewart came to.

[SGWilko]

Yep, I hate driving into a setting sun, quite often I can't see anything. It's bad enough at 70mph, but at 170mph?!

Let's next have them driving at night, in a hurricane, during a storm surge, that'll sort out the real drivers :mark:

If you also require an earthquake and a volcano eruption, let me know, I know this chap down the pub who can arrange stuff............. ;)

[Sonic]

If you also require an earthquake and a volcano eruption, let me know, I know this chap down the pub who can arrange stuff............. ;)

Is his name Zeus or Thor by chance??

[ioan]

Is his name Zeus or Thor by chance??

Nah, it's Bin Laden. :p :

[wedge]

I don't recall seeing a quote from him saying that. Perhaps you have a link?

I do remember him saying modern Formula 1 is about as dangerous - and about as dramatic - as tight-rope walking one foot above the living room carpet. In his day it was like tight-rope walking over the Niagra Falls.

His point being that while the skill required to walk the tightrope was exactly the same, the challenge of doing so was entirely different.

In the Grand Prix film DVD extras Moss mentioned it.

He often doubts whether Schumi would've pulled those same moves in Moss' era simply because it was far more dangerous.

As time has moved on and safety improved drivers have pushed the levels of what is/isn't acceptable. Nigel Roebuck often retells Mario Andretti opinion of sprintcar racing: when roll cages were introduced drivers were more willing to crash into each because they could get away with it. The same has been true in F1.

[AussieV8]

Interesting one on Fox Sports website today:

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,25274971-23770,00.html

IMHO the problems are actually due to the later than normal date in the month. The sun set at 7:19pm. If they moved it back to its original date (ie: Labour day weekend, which it was on until a few years ago), the sun would have been setting at about 7:50pm and would be much higher in the sky towards the end of the race. The idea of a twilight race isn't a bad one, it's just the date they picked. A long weekend would also make sense from the point of view of attracting local spectators to an evening race as they wouldn't have work the next day.

As we get closer to the end of daylight saving (which is next weekend), it's amazing how quickly the sun gets lower in the sky during the evening. Even one week can make a big difference.

They could also move it to 4:30pm along with the earlier start in the month. If it started at 4:30pm and finished around 6:00-6:15pm on 9 March, the sun would have been setting about 1.5hrs after the end of the race rather than just 30-40 mins.

[Valve Bounce]

Interesting one on Fox Sports website today:

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,25274971-23770,00.html

IMHO the problems are actually due to the later than normal date in the month. If they moved it back to its original date (ie: Labour day weekend), the sun would have been setting at about 7:50pm and would be much higher in the sky. The idea of a twilight race isn't a bad one, it's just the date they picked. A long weekend would also make sense from the point of view of attracting local spectators as they wouldn't have work the next day.

As we get closer to the end of daylight saving (which is next weekend), it's amazing how quickly the sun gets lower in the sky during the evening. Even one week can make a big difference.

There is one other disadvantage: those bloody heatwaves. From memory, there is every likelihood of hot days around the earlier date (which I can always remember because it is near to my birthday). I know last year was a stinker, and this year wasn't that good either. Theoretically, it gets cooler after the Ides of March here in Melbourne. OK!! so I am thinking of the spectators on this point, but many of the Poms who come out from England just cannot tolerate our heatwave conditions - neither can I :(

[Valve Bounce]

........and now the Kube Man himself: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74144

[AussieV8]

Considering how hot and humid it can be in Malaysia, I don't see how the odd chance of a heatwave in early March should be a big problem.

Anyway, last year the race was held one week earlier (but still later in March) and we had 38 degrees. This year, if it was held on the Labour day weekend, it would have been around 25 degrees and overcast. The following weekend (Avalon airshow), it was pouring with rain. I remember for a few years in a row earlier this decade it was freezing cold and wet on at least one of the days for the weekend. ie: March weather is a lottery in Melbourne.

IMHO the simple fact is that if they want that timeslot, they need to hold it when there is more light at that time of day, which is earlier in March.

Alternatively, why not have the race earlier in the day? ie: hold it between 10:00am - 12:00pm. With Daylight saving time, this is 11:00pm - 1:00am in the UK. (ie: AEDT is GMT+11) I don't know about people in the UK, but I regularly stay up past 1:00am on a Saturday, but rarely wake up at 7:00am on a Sunday unless I really have to.

For the locals, they should simply build another pit facility for the V8's (why not modify the sports centre carpark?) and have a championship round in the afternoon. This would be a great double header that would bring in more punters than the current lineup anyway.

[BobbyC]

Nico Rosberg is one driver who considers twilight races dangerous:

He also thinks the Malaysian GP could be stopped if a monsoon hits the circuit:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74114

Wonder what his Dad thinks about that having been the winner of the 1978 International Trophy in very wet conditions.

Bernie wants all Australia/Asia races run at night in order to allow for daytime shows in Europe. That's it -- on Sundays.

No night races in Europe. That's the issue, IMO. Europe keeps all day races, give Australia and Asia night races so Europe gets happy. See if any European circuit wants to try a Saturday Night Special with floodlights and racers going around the circuit at night.

If you've seen a Sprint Cup, Daytona 200 (motorcycle), or even sportscar event, the spectators grab flash photography in the early laps of the night race just to take pictures as nightfall approaches. If you remember the 2007 Daytona 500, note the number of photographs being taken on Laps 201-202.

[markabilly]

Actually looking into the sun is just one of a number of problems with the dimming of light at twilight.
The eye itself loses the medical or biological ability to contrast colors and objects as the light dims and becomes more diffuse.
Some people have a great deal of difficulty with depth perception. In any event, visusal acuity suffers with the dimming of light, and there is a period of adaption that activates the different nerve cells that are used at night compared to daylight.

By using bright lights and headlights, the eye retains a great deal of visual acuity, such that the affect is lessened, but there is still a difficult transistion period.

So, I think it is a potentially very difficult problem that has nothing to do with the size of gonads

[Ranger]

http://images.gpupdate.net/large/121350.jpg
http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2610/z1238656812.jpg

Brutal.

[ShiftingGears]

Oh wow. That looks quite ominous.

[cosmicpanda]

No problems with the setting sun, then, with those brilliant clouds. :)