Montmelo testing

[chap]

Good news for Macca fans, we are again on top :)

Test Times: Barcelona 12-02

12/02/2007

Today's Times - All Times Unofficial

Name Team T Laps Time Gap

Pos Driver Team Time Laps
1. de la Rosa McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:22.634 76
2. Kubica BMW-Sauber (B) 1:22.635 60
3. Alonso McLaren-Mercedes (B) 1:22.726 56
4. Wurz Williams-Toyota (B) 1:23.037 44
5. Massa Ferrari (B) 1:23.077 29
6. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:23.215 79
7. Trulli Toyota (B) 1:23.239 74
8. Kovalainen Renault (B) 1:23.491 55
9. Rosberg Williams-Toyota (B) 1:23.602 78
10. Glock BMW-Sauber (B) 1:23.653 61
11. Fisichella Renault (B) 1:23.869 79
12. Montagny Toyota (B) 1:24.015 64
13. Klien Honda (B) 1:24.227 51
14. Coulthard Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:24.291 80
15. Webber Red Bull-Renault (B) 1:24.531 83
16. Davidson Super Aguri-Honda (B) 1:24.574 66
17. Barrichello Honda (B) 1:24.934 24
18. Sutil Spyker-Ferrari (B) 1:25.581 83

[andreag]

5. Massa Ferrari (B) 1:23.077 29
6. Raikkonen Ferrari (B) 1:23.215 79
Kimi didn't drove 79 laps. Before the rain came at 13:30, he could only drive 8 laps, he had continuous problems the whole morning, and the car was stopped (even he stopped in the pit lane after starting ). Felipe's car simply blows on a white smoke in the middle of his first lap.

The real number of laps for Kimi is close to Massa (25 according to Pitpass).

By the way, the new chicane is really good.

[tinchote]

Will they keep showing Bridgestone as the tyre provider for each car during all of 2007? ;) :D

[Simmi]

Will they keep showing Bridgestone as the tyre provider for each car during all of 2007? ;) :D


Who else would they put lol?

[chap]

Kimi didn't drove 79 laps ...

The real number of laps for Kimi is close to Massa (25 according to Pitpass).


Well ... according to autosport (for example) he did 79 ... desolé

[Mr Kurtz]

F1-live has him on 25 laps also having problems...
"Kimi Raikkonen’s car also suffered a different electrical problem, which meant he too spent a long while in the garage."

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070212182636.shtml

[samuratt]

BMW is very surprising, and I am sure that Ron and Todt must be some kind of worried about the prospect of having a new gun at Ok Corral!!!! :D

Keep up the good work BMW :up:

[chap]

so true but ... seems Honda is not being so good ????

[F1boat]

For me it seems that McLaren will dominate.

[andreag]

Well ... according to autosport (for example) he did 79 ... desolé
I don't care if Autosport wrote 79 laps, but Kimi's car spent most of the day in the box. Before noon he had only made about 8-10 laps (Massa couldn't finish one), and after the short rain 15-18 (Felipe almost doubled him).

I didn't count the laps but I'been some hours in front of Renault-Ferrari-McLaren boxes, and some more on different areas of the track.

Tomorrow I'll take pen and paper to write down the laps from every driver.

And it's true, Honda is having problems, while BMW looks impressive (and Kubica was driving like a master).

[Gannex]

Will they keep showing Bridgestone as the tyre provider for each car during all of 2007? ;) :D

I know, tinchote, that it looks strange specifying Bridgestone, but the rules allow teams during tests to compare the new Bridgestones with any Michelins they have left over, and there is no guarantee that teams won't be doing comparison runs. When they are doing those (to refine their suspensions) it's definitely of interest, and that's why everyone agreed they should specify the tyre brand until the end of testing. But I grant you, it looks weird.

[futuretiger9]

so true but ... seems Honda is not being so good ????


Honda has been almost totally anonymous during the recent series of tests. They don't appear to have had any major setbacks, but neither have they displayed any scintillating pace. Maybe they are just keeping their cards close to their chest.

[RJL25]

Maybe they are just keeping their cards close to their chest.

i think a number of teams are doing this actually. Major exceptions include mclaren, BMW and williams who are currently doing alot of chest beating, however i have concerns about their actually pace (BMW and williams) and reliability (as always for mclaren)

[mstillhere]

Well ... according to autosport (for example) he did 79 ... desolé

Hi Chap and everyone else,
it could help to directly check the info from the Ferrari web site
(http://www.ferrariworld.com/FWorld/fw/index.jsp)
And in fact it confirms that what F1 live posted matches with what Ferrari has posted.

[Big Ben]

i think a number of teams are doing this actually. Major exceptions include mclaren, BMW and williams who are currently doing alot of chest beating, however i have concerns about their actually pace (BMW and williams) and reliability (as always for mclaren)

I don't understand this! Why would they test elements that normally aren't going to be used? Don't they want to see if they really work?

[chap]

Hi, hereafter what maybe are (or maybe aren't) times before lunch ;)

1.- F. Massa - Ferrari 1:21.181 - 77 vueltas
2.- K. Raikkonen - Ferrari 1:21.719 +0.538 - 84 vueltas
3.- H. Kovalainen - Renault 21:819 +0.638 - 71 vueltas
4.- F. Alonso - McLaren 1:21.901 +0.720 - 50 vueltas
5.- G. Fisichella - Renault 1:21.994 +0.816 - 93 vueltas
6.- L. Hamilton - McLaren 1:22.083 +0.902 - 47 vueltas
7.- R. Kubica - BMW-Sauber 1:22.100 +0.919 - 56 vueltas
8.- N. Rosberg - Williams 1:22.249 +1.068 - 10 vueltas
9.- A. Wurz - Williams 1:22.288 +1.107 - 55 vueltas
10.- F. Montagny - Toyota1:22.476 +1.295 - 62 vueltas
11.- J. Trulli - Toyota 1:22.511 +1.330 - 30 vueltas
12.- N. Heidfeld - BMW-Sauber 1:22.618 +1.437 - 79 vueltas
13.- R. Barrichello - Honda 1:22.669 +1.488 - 45 vueltas
14.- J. Button - Honda 1:22.816 +1.635 - 45 vueltas
15.- M. Webber - RedBull 1:22.916 +1.735 - 49 vueltas
16.- D. Coulthard - RedBull 1:23.322 +2.141 - 37 vueltas
17.- A. Davidson - Super Aguri F1 1:23.969 +2.788 - 36 vueltas
20.- C. Albers - SpykerF1 1:24.425 +3.244 - 65 vueltas

[Tazio]

These may or may not be final days results!

1. Massa Ferrari 1:21.181 107
2. Raikkonen Ferrari 1:21.719 154
3. Kovalainen Renault 1:21.819 99
4. Alonso McLaren-Mercedes 1:21.901 63
5. Fisichella Renault 1:21.997 129
6. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:22.078 118
7. Kubica BMW-Sauber 1:22.100 56
8. Trulli Toyota 1:22.227 96
9. Rosberg Williams-Toyota 1:22.249 10
10. Wurz Williams-Toyota 1:22.288 55
11. Montagny Toyota 1:22.476 96
12. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber 1:22.618 92
13. Barrichello Honda 1:22.669 85
14. Button Honda 1:22.816 91
15. Webber Red Bull-Renault 1:22.916 83
16. Coulthard Red Bull-Renault 1:23.322 50
17. Davidson Super Aguri-Honda 1:23.969 97
18. Albers Spyker-Ferrari 1:24.425 108

[jens]

Toyota has consistently been beating Honda and RBR, now at last they have got the upper hand over Williams. Also they are lapping more and more laps every day, this time 96 laps with both cars.

Ralf has been quite satisified with the new car, but Jarno has been a bit worried, especially about weather preventing them from gaining extra data and mechanical gremlins.

Overall situation is not brilliant for the red-whites, but at least their platform into the season seems to be better than a year ago at the same time. Still not lost all the hopes of finishing in Top5 in the WCC, although Top4 seems to be quite a class of their own at the moment.

All in all although it's only testing, then ordering of the drivers and teams seems to be quite logical actually. :D

And lastly - I'd like to see Spyker somehow getting mixed into the teams in front of them. :)

[samuratt]

For me it seems that McLaren will dominate.

Are you getting ready for your darkest dreams??? :D

cause i think Ferrari will dominate! but not having a clear number one as in previous years, could hurt them in the race for the WDC...
;)

Anyway, bring on Australia so the fight begins!!!! :bandit:

[F1boat]

Phew! Finally good day for Ferrari. they might not be as bad as I fear. Still this number 1 McLaren looks ominous... as well as Heiki!

[RJL25]

I don't understand this! Why would they test elements that normally aren't going to be used? Don't they want to see if they really work?

well with RBR, the car isnt complete yet, the aero package is still in the wind tunnel undergoing final evaluation. And alot of teams just simply do not shoot for overall speed at such an early point in winter testing. They are often concentrating on reliability and understanding the car and how they work with the tyres. They dont start shooting for speed usually untill the very end of winter testing

Whats the point in setting times anyway? Its not like you win anything, theres simply no point at all in doing it. Last year Honda won the "unofficial testing world championship" by being incredibly quick all the way through winter testing, but turned out to be pretty darn flat when it came to the 1st couple of GP's and never really showed the pace which they promised from testing. Hence why you really cant pay too much attention to testing times. The 1st GP is where its at!

[futuretiger9]

Phew! Finally good day for Ferrari. they might not be as bad as I fear. Still this number 1 McLaren looks ominous... as well as Heiki!


You can bet that the majority of the problems afflicting Ferrari will have been addressed by Melbourne. The times pretty much reflect the pecking order which has been established in recent weeks. Here's hoping that the times remain as tight and close as this when the season starts. We could have a titanic struggle between McLaren and Ferrari, with others joining in.

[Ian McC]

Previous years have shown testing means little, once the season starts we will get a better idea of things.

[Ari]

Come on.... does anyone really believe that these test results are telling of where all the teams are at the moment? Sauber at the front? I dont think so. Come Round 1 things will sort themselves out.

These results are about as useful as the plastic toy you get with your breakfast cereal!

[tinchote]

Today test confirms that Ferrari will win both championships ;) :p :

[mstillhere]

I don't think that speed during testing is that important and that's why I am keeping my eyes, for example, on Renault which has been testing kind of quietly and, because of that, kind of dismissed as a strong contender by a lot of people. Thinking that McLaren, Ferrari or BMW will be the teams to beat just because they topping the tests charts is way too simplistic. What I have learned through the years in F1 is the winning car is the car that's the most realiable and consistently fast on all the tracks.
So, although I am a hard core Ferrari fan, today's results feel more like an attempt of Ferrrari trying to shut up the mounting criticism coming from the Italian press, than anything else.
What impressed me the most, instead, was the huge amount of laps that both Ferrari drivers were able to put together without any problems. That's the big news, in my opinion.

[RJL25]

mstillhere - i agree. At this early point in testing most teams will be working mainly on making their car as reliable as possible. Whats the point of working on the cars outright performance when your continuously being interupted by mechanical gremlins? Once, as a team, your satisfied that you have a nice reliable car, then you start working on the cars outright performance.

I think this is where Red Bull, Honda, Toyota and Renault have it right. They are just quietly doing their thing, working on their cars reliability and making sure everythings sweet. Once they are satisfied with their cars reliability i am sure you will start seeing red bull, honda, toyota and renault's times moving quickly up the time sheets. But i dont think that will happen for either team untill the Bahrain test at the earliest

as i said any team that is setting laps time right now is just chest beating

[F1boat]

Well... it's not true that testing is telling nothing. McLaren struggled last year in testing and in racing. Renault were solid in testing and in racing. Same about Ferrari. Honda looked very strong, yeah, but to say that they were slow in racing would not be correct. They were pretty fast - in qualifying. Button scored Pole in Melbourne and front row in Malaysia, remember.
In 2005 we saw Renault and mclaren setting very fast times and Ferrari struggling. The championship was battle between Renault and McLaren-Mercedes.
A year before, McLaren looked very slow and BAR pretty fast and look what happened.
You say that this year testing means nothing. Why? Ferrari and McLaren are in front, is this not normal? Renault are doing good job, what is the "chest beating' in that?
I think that testing is pretty relevant from waht I have seen. Of course, when a team jumps from zero to hero in testing (a la Arrows Supertech in 1999) obviously they are playing games. But BMW is not Arrows and it was expected from them to improve.
A lot of people think that Red Bull and Honda can't go wrong. Can't see why. After 2004 Honda managed dreadful season in 2005 - after the US GP they were stone last in the championship with zero points. And Red Bull - actually their 2006 season was worse than 2005, despite DC's heric podium in Monaco.
And about Newey, I still remember McLaren MP4/18 - sometimes he is too smart and making his cars like poetry, not racing machines.
I am not telling that RBR and Honda are slow. They could be sanbagging, really. But on the other hand, Barcelona is important track, it really shows how good your aerodynamics is and if you are slow there, it is not good. So RBR and Honda MIGHT be sandbagging or MIGHT suddenly jump in performance (a la Arrows ;) ), but I won't be surprised if BMW, Toyota and Williams are faster then them in Melbourne.
About Top 3 teams being Ferrari, McLaren and Renault - nothing surprising there. Testing might be misleading, but it is not irrelevant.

[ioan]

mstillhere - i agree. At this early point in testing most teams will be working mainly on making their car as reliable as possible. Whats the point of working on the cars outright performance when your continuously being interupted by mechanical gremlins? Once, as a team, your satisfied that you have a nice reliable car, then you start working on the cars outright performance.

I think this is where Red Bull, Honda, Toyota and Renault have it right. They are just quietly doing their thing, working on their cars reliability and making sure everythings sweet. Once they are satisfied with their cars reliability i am sure you will start seeing red bull, honda, toyota and renault's times moving quickly up the time sheets. But i dont think that will happen for either team untill the Bahrain test at the earliest

as i said any team that is setting laps time right now is just chest beating

I might contradict a bit your philosophy.
For sure they are trying to make the cars as reliable as possible, but rest assure that they work on the performance also if not they would be lost by the start of the season.
To make a car fast is more difficult than to make it reliable that's why I believe that having a fast car is their first point on the list, making it reliable is what they do when they get a good base performance.

[Gannex]

Sandbagging? Has any team really done this in the last thirty years? Seems like the kind of thing that might have happened in Colin Chapman's day, and might even have worked once, but probably not twice; but in this era? It would be too expensive and utterly ineffective, wouldn't it? I'm genuinely asking because I don't follow these things closely and would welcome any information, from someone who does, about whether the sandbagging phenomenon is real or just a myth. My guess is that it's pure myth.

[RJL25]

To make a car fast is more difficult than to make it reliable that's why I believe that having a fast car is their first point on the list, making it reliable is what they do when they get a good base performance.

maybe you should run that particular point past mclaren...

F1 is fought on the limit, if you step off that limit then your uncompetitive. Having a reliable AND fast car is the holy grail, it certainly isnt an easy thing to do! Why did ferrari dominate for so long? Because they had BOTH of those things, not just one or the other. Discounting reliability as not very important is an ignorant thing to do

[jens]

Sandbagging? Has any team really done this in the last thirty years? Seems like the kind of thing that might have happened in Colin Chapman's day, and might even have worked once, but probably not twice; but in this era? It would be too expensive and utterly ineffective, wouldn't it? I'm genuinely asking because I don't follow these things closely and would welcome any information, from someone who does, about whether the sandbagging phenomenon is real or just a myth. My guess is that it's pure myth.

Agreed. Teams have a lot of other and more important work to do than just trying to fool others. And it gives practically no effect as well, because I suppose such professional teams won't let interfere themselves by the fact, how quick or slow someone else is. They are trying to do their own thing. And if they want some more information about others, then they probably try to take a closer look at their cars, not lap times.

[janneppi]

maybe you should run that particular point past mclaren...

F1 is fought on the limit, if you step off that limit then your uncompetitive. Having a reliable AND fast car is the holy grail, it certainly isnt an easy thing to do! Why did ferrari dominate for so long? Because they had BOTH of those things, not just one or the other. Discounting reliability as not very important is an ignorant thing to do

ioan didn't say reliability should be ignored, just that speed is more important. Using Maclaren as example, in 2005 they got 10 wins with an unreliable car where as last year the best they got was a second place despite having a more reliable car.

[DimitraF1]

mpla mpla mpla :P season start is close :P

[tinchote]

Once, as a team, your satisfied that you have a nice reliable car, then you start working on the cars outright performance.



That doesn't make sense. You need to test your reliability close to max speed, otherwise you are wasting time. And if your max speed out of the box is a second less than the others, what makes you think that speed can be recovered later?

[F1boat]

BTW, Coulthard leads right now day 3 ;)
Top 3 (laatste update: 12:29)


Coureur Team Chassis Laptime Verschil Laps
1 David Coulthard Red Bull Racing RB3 1:21.855 56
2 Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber F1.07 1:21.958 + 0.103 56
3 Felipe Massa Ferrari F2007 1:21.964 + 0.109 63

[samuratt]

Testing might be misleading, but it is not irrelevant.

Very nice sentence mate! :up:

When people say some team is sandbagging I think it refers to the fact that they are not trying to top the timesheets, but maybe concetrating on the long runs. You never know what is every team testing at the moment, so the difficult thing about this is to put the time in its context.

For example, when your are testing your car in race conditions or for qualifying the engine specs and the tires may be different, so are the times. So testing might be misleading (when you look at the lap time you do not know what the others were doing) but it is not irrelevant (if you get a good performance out of the car during the two months of testing, you will probably be fast at the begining of the season).

:bandit:

[RJL25]

That doesn't make sense. You need to test your reliability close to max speed, otherwise you are wasting time. And if your max speed out of the box is a second less than the others, what makes you think that speed can be recovered later?

im not saying the drivers shouldnt be driving the car as fast as they possibly can, obviously they should be. But when a team doesnt even have their final aero package on the car then why on earth would they bother chasing outright performance? It would be a waste of time considering the entire game will change when they get their new package, therefore their time would be better spent concentrating on reliability rather then fine tuning the cars performance to an aero package that wont be used come the 1st GP

thats my point, i hope i have made it more clear this time

[RJL25]

BTW, Coulthard leads right now day 3 ;)
Top 3 (laatste update: 12:29)


Coureur Team Chassis Laptime Verschil Laps
1 David Coulthard Red Bull Racing RB3 1:21.855 56
2 Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber F1.07 1:21.958 + 0.103 56
3 Felipe Massa Ferrari F2007 1:21.964 + 0.109 63

wow look everyone redbull found just over a second overnight! (their quickest time yesterday was a 1:22.916)

come on... do we understand what im talking about now? just because a team isnt setting fast lap times doesnt mean their car isnt fast! They may be running around with old tyres, they may have heavy fuel loads, they may have rev restrictions on their engines, they may have done the majority of their running when the track conditions weren't crash hot, they could be doing any number of evaluations which would rob them of outright speed!

Have redbull suddenly made their car a second a lap faster overnight? ofcourse not! In all likelyhood this is the first time that they have bothered to test the car on light fuel loads with green tires to see what it can do. Why would they be doing this? Any number of reasons. Perhaps they have moved onto the next phase of their testing schedule which includes developing single lap pace (ie qualifying speed), perhaps they are just doing a "hey look at me!" run to make sure no one has forgotten about them! who knows! Point is we wont know untill melbourne, and trying to second guess who is fast and who is not based on winter testing is notoriously unreliable!

[F1boat]

and trying to second guess who is fast and who is not based on winter testing is notoriously unreliable!

Fun, though ;)

[VresiBerba]

But when a team doesnt even have their final aero package on the car then why on earth would they bother chasing outright performance?

What if chasing performance is the only way to learn how the gearbox works? If they wait for the final aero package to arrive and then only find out that the gear box is not up to standards, why do they test at all? It would be a complete waste of time just trundling around "testing" when you're not even trying to set fast times.

[ioan]

ioan didn't say reliability should be ignored, just that speed is more important. Using Maclaren as example, in 2005 they got 10 wins with an unreliable car where as last year the best they got was a second place despite having a more reliable car.

Thanks for the help, always appreciated! :)

[ioan]

What if chasing performance is the only way to learn how the gearbox works? If they wait for the final aero package to arrive and then only find out that the gear box is not up to standards, why do they test at all? It would be a complete waste of time just trundling around "testing" when you're not even trying to set fast times.


Good point.

PS: Nice signature, hope it works!

[tinchote]

What if chasing performance is the only way to learn how the gearbox works? If they wait for the final aero package to arrive and then only find out that the gear box is not up to standards, why do they test at all? It would be a complete waste of time just trundling around "testing" when you're not even trying to set fast times.

That's my point. The "new aero package" may give you a couple more hundred rpm down the straight, and that could be unbearable for those new gearbox components. You cannot test reliability if you are "caring for the equipment".

[jens]

1 D. Coulthard Red Bull Bridgestone 01:21.855 112
2 N. Heidfeld BMW Bridgestone 01:21.958 96
3 F. Massa Ferrari Bridgestone 01:21.964 92
4 F. Alonso McLaren Bridgestone 01:22.103 114
5 N. Rosberg Williams Bridgestone 01:22.280 86
6 L. Hamilton McLaren Bridgestone 01:22.292 125
7 K. Räikkönen Ferrari Bridgestone 01:22.369 45
8 F. Montagny Toyota Bridgestone 01:22.446 107
9 G. Fisichella Renault Bridgestone 01:22.758 90
10 H. Kovalainen Renault Bridgestone 01:22.783 56
11 M. Webber Red Bull Bridgestone 01:22.834 61
12 J. Button Honda Bridgestone 01:23.061 91
13 R. Barrichello Honda Bridgestone 01:23.257 39
14 A. Wurz Williams Bridgestone 01:23.275 39
15 S. Vettel BMW Bridgestone 01:22.569 56
16 R. Schumacher Toyota Bridgestone 01:23.789 82
17 C. Albers Spyker F1 Bridgestone 01:23.947 87
18 T. Sato Super Aguri Bridgestone 01:24.568 123
19 V. Liuzzi Scuderia Toro Rosso Bridgestone 01:26.269 30

Final results.

RBR's sudden shine is interesting. Especially as before they have been among the last ones.

It's impossible to take lap times seriously one-by-one, but what counts more, is the overall impression. The fact that RBR now suddenly wins one day, doesn't mean automatically that they indeed are good and they have fooled us all previously. Overall impression is still doubtful. If I remember correctly, then even McLaren won a couple of test days a year ago in late February, but the overall impression was that they were struggling. Let's see what can RBR do next time around back at Valencia again in 19th February.

So far the overall impression says that Ferrari, McLaren and Renault remain the title challengers at the teams' side. Honda has probably effectively dropped out of title contention, whatever they'll be in the midfield. BMW's involvement in title hunt is also very highly unlikely. No need to mention others. Massa, Räikkönen, Alonso and maybe Fisichella and Kovalainen are the ones that can't be written off at the drivers' side.

[chap]

Alonso, Massa, Raikkonen and maybe Kova to win some races ... I'm no so confident on Fisi.

Very disappointing Honda's performance as well as good to see Nick topping the table :)

[F1boat]

I think that DC was very light. We'll see in Melbourne, but I think that RBR is trying to save the team's image. However, they mightn not be as bad as I feared.

[Ranger]

RBR's jump is interesting. I will make a prediction after several more tests.

[Ari]

RBR have more than an ace up their sleave.

RJL25 and myself have keenly noted! ;)