Firestone's New RedWall Tires

[DanicaFan]

Well, the IndyCar Series is implementing a new tire alternative tire concept this year. Firestone has come up with a new tire that is similiar to the current racing slicks but have a softer tread which provides more grip. These tires have red sidewalls. This will allow you to have a quicker lap time.

Each car will get 3 sets of the new red sidewall tires. Each team is required to use at least one set of these for at least 2 green flag laps for each road/street course event. A team can even use these tires during qualifications on road courses to try and obtain a faster lap time resulting in a better starting position. The team however must leave at least one set untouched to use during the race itself.

A softer tire for better grip will wear out quicker so the use of these will come down to good strategy.
I like this new tire concept. I think it will make for interesting strategies. Do you use them for a better qualifying run, start out with them during the race to get a headstart of use them late to gain positions and make a run for the checkered ?

Firestone has a good thing here. I think this will be another good addition to racing strategy. This new tire concept will start for the season opener at St. Petersburgh on April 4-5th.

[DBell]

I'm glad that the IRL is using this, but it's hardly a new concept. Champ Car used it their last couple of years with Bridgestone and F1 started using it last year. It can help spice up some of the street and road races races by offering varying strategies and help the on track action with cars being on different tires. I'll be curious to see how it affects the ovals.

[NickFalzone]

I'm not sure what you mean about the ovals. I doubt very much that Firestone or the IRL would be ballsy enough to have multiple tires compounds on an oval. That's asking for trouble (or worse). I would like to see them on ovals, but lets get real, it will only be for road and streets.

One thing I did find interesting though is that on Indycar.com they have an interview with Al Speyer and he mentioned that while every road/street event will have the 2 tire options, the tires will be different at each track. They have specific compounds for every track. In other words, the difference with the reds may not be consistent from track to track. Maybe a half second on one course, and more or less on another. He thinks that because of this some teams may opt to even run a set of reds in practice to get a feel before qualifying.

[Easy Drifter]

Oh Oh I am in a mood tonight!!

Is it true "Stompin' Danica" is demanding pink sidewalls? :eek:

[DanicaFan]

I can see it now when Danica wins one of her races this year and she happens to have these redwall tires on, people will downplay the win and say she only won on a tire strategy, not her driving. Im already getting prepared for this null and void argument.

[DBell]

I'm not sure what you mean about the ovals. I doubt very much that Firestone or the IRL would be ballsy enough to have multiple tires compounds on an oval. That's asking for trouble (or worse). I would like to see them on ovals, but lets get real, it will only be for road and streets.


My bad. I haven't been paying much attention this off season and I thought I had seen it said that all races would be using them. Must've said all road and street races.

[DBell]

I can see it now when Danica wins one of her races this year and she happens to have these redwall tires on, people will downplay the win and say she only won on a tire strategy, not her driving. Im already getting prepared for this null and void argument.

If all that happened and someone used that as an argument, it would be a pretty weak argument.

[Scheckterfan54]

I saw these tires at the test at Barber, was not aware that they were being used by everyone as I only saw marco and Ed use them. Adds an interesting twist to already interesting road course races.

[Rex Monaco]

I can see it now when Danica wins one of her races this year and she happens to have these redwall tires on, people will downplay the win and say she only won on a tire strategy, not her driving. Im already getting prepared for this null and void argument.

Or maybe someone might try to argue that if she'd only used those tires she would have won?

[beachbum]

Or maybe someone might try to argue that if she'd only used those tires she would have won?No one would suggest that, would they?

It is interesting to see some forums blasting this idea because they take the position that everything Champ Car did was bad. While CC make have been a failed business concept, they did have some good ideas about how to "spice up" the show. I like the idea of option tires as it adds another competitive element. Now, if they can only get on board starters as part of the next engine package.......

[garyshell]

Now, if they can only get on board starters as part of the next engine package.......


And then figure out how to make them actually work! ;)

Gary

[TURN3]

I can see it now when Danica wins one of her races this year and she happens to have these redwall tires on, people will downplay the win and say she only won on a tire strategy, not her driving. Im already getting prepared for this null and void argument.

First off, you post this thread like it is some new discovery. As pointed out above, this idea was implemented by Champ Car and copied by others as it proved to add a slight bit of intrigue to qualifying. It rarely has an effect on the outcome of a race beyond that...one notable exception was Denver its last year.

You are correct, any argument that a race was won due to a tire strategy would be null and void because every team will have access to the same strategy. Unlike fuel and lucky yellows, this tire strategy requires a driver to be quick to be at the front. It only improves the lap time differential between cars to promote passing and you still have to be quick enough to pass...of which Danica is not and hasn't been since she was in Karts at about age 8.

The ONLY way Danica is capable of winning a race is fuel strategy, lucky (coughs) or "well placed yellows", along with every other team/driver in the paddock falling asleep. Not only does this have null effect on her chances of winning, it has a negative effect on her because car set-up and a driver's skill/ability to adapt to changing conditions now becomes more imperative. So if anything, her chances of winning a race with fuel strategy and lucky yellows just DECREASED.

Laughing all the way to the bank buddy...I think Bill's Gambling Hall in Vegas still takes IRL bets...I'll take the field against Danica so I can personally stimulate the economy.

[Wilf]

You are correct, any argument that a race was won due to a tire strategy would be null and void because every team will have access to the same strategy. Unlike fuel and lucky yellows, this tire strategy requires a driver to be quick to be at the front.

I find it unconscionable that the IRL allows Danica to have a fuel strategy not available to any other driver on her team much less the balance of the field!

[TURN3]

I find it unconscionable that the IRL allows Danica to have a fuel strategy not available to any other driver on her team much less the balance of the field!

Let me illustrate my point with an example. Normally, drivers at the back of the pack where Danica usually is, will come in to top off for fuel on an early yellow. Now if there happens to be another yellow, that usually vaults the back of pack drivers to the front when the quicker cars have to stop. Now depending on the timing of all of this, a back of pack driver can get pretty lucky and score a win.

Yes this fuel strategy game is available to all the drivers but it makes no sense for the drivers at the front to sacrifice their track position on a gamble.

Get it? The point is tires aren't going to help her get to the front like some fluke fuel strategy & IRL yellow sometimes do. And, I think it will have a drasitcally negative impact on her finishing even mid-pack. She's shown she has no talent, cannot set-up a car, and cannot adapt during a race. I'm not making this stuff up, her own teammates have made it clear to the obvious. So now she has to figure out how to manage a car that won't be the same on all stints...hope AGR bought plenty of extra steering wheels!

[Wilf]

Get it? The point is tires aren't going to help her get to the front like some fluke fuel strategy & IRL yellow sometimes do. And, I think it will have a drasitcally negative impact on her finishing even mid-pack. She's shown she has no talent, cannot set-up a car, and cannot adapt during a race. I'm not making this stuff up, her own teammates have made it clear to the obvious. So now she has to figure out how to manage a car that won't be the same on all stints...hope AGR bought plenty of extra steering wheels!

I would think the 10 to 15 drivers who consistently finish behind the no talent girl would be too ashamed to continue in the sport. And before you say it, she has consistently finished ahead of at least one of her teammates in the season standings. I'm not sure where you heard or read of her teammates saying she has no talent, cannot set up a car and cannot adapt during a race. Can you point to where such quotes can be found?

Danica is not one of my favorites; one of my favorites has finished ahead of Danica any number of times, but has yet to win. However, he does respect her ability as a driver. I just don't understand why dislike for a driver conjures up superlatives.

[bblocker68]

LOL. You guys are acting like the "Red's" are a new discovery.

nOObs!!!!

[Wilf]

LOL. You guys are acting like the "Red's" are a new discovery.

nOObs!!!!

Unless I am mistaken, an alternate tire is NEW to the IRL. I don't believe there is a statement or even an insinuation that it was the creation of IndyCar.

The new policy is doing what it was designed to do, introduce another variable into the series and that will stimulate discussions.

It is hard to understand why any discussion of anything that ever was a part of CART, CCWS or F1 has to include an acknowledgment of who originated the concept.

[TURN3]

It is hard to understand why any discussion of anything that ever was a part of CART, CCWS or F1 has to include an acknowledgment of who originated the concept.

It seems to me in 3 short posts of yours which I have read that a lot of things are hard for you to understand. Nobody is trying to take credit for where the concept originated. The person who originated this post though did so in the context that it was a revelation of some sort.

While new to the IRL, Champ Car's experience can be closely compared to how these tires will impact the IRL race weekends. Considering it is the exact same rule and the exact same tire manufacturer, it will be a good change, another of many that are needed. I think all along before the merger, the best forumla would've been to take the best both series had to offer and it looks like that is where things have headed so far. It doesn't look promising but hopefully next year they can get the engine/chassis formula changed too.

[garyshell]

Well, the IndyCar Series is implementing a new tire alternative tire concept this year. Firestone has come up with a new tire that is similiar to the current racing slicks but have a softer tread which provides more grip. These tires have red sidewalls. This will allow you to have a quicker lap time.


It seems to me in 3 short posts of yours which I have read that a lot of things are hard for you to understand. Nobody is trying to take credit for where the concept originated. The person who originated this post though did so in the context that it was a revelation of some sort.

Having read the initial post again, it hardly seems that this was being presented as a "revelation". Nor is it making any sort of claim that it had never been tried before. But some of the "us versus them" mentality popped up once again and the comment was twisted into a CART vs. IRL argument one more time. Some of us who were died in the wool CART fans have gotten over the fact that CART is gone. We have what we have. It doesn't matter if CART did it first, who gives a flying ****? It is new to the IRL this year. So the statement "the IndyCar Series is implementing a new tire alternative tire concept this year" is factually correct. The implication that it is new to the world is totally in the eyes of certain readers. Readers who need to understand there is no war anymore.

But what is REALLY funny is you thinking you need to somehow explain all this to someone who has been here since 2005, and has a lot more experience in this business than you seem to think.

Gary

[TURN3]

For the record, my intentions had nothing to do with Champ Car vs. IRL. I do see how some die hard fans on one side or the other would assume the "war" call though.

I suppose I was more of a Champ Car fan because that is where PT was but I attended and watch races equally so no bias on my part is intended. I just think new rule to the IRL or not, you can look at the effect on Champ Car from week to week and you'll see the exact same effect on IRL races this year and beyond. I hope that clears up my point.

[Wilf]

It seems to me in 3 short posts of yours which I have read that a lot of things are hard for you to understand.

I guess to many, I am somewhat dense. However even this dense person can understand:


LOL. You guys are acting like the "Red's" are a new discovery.

nOObs!!!!

Silly me]another[/B] good idea from CCWS. Normally, when things start going your way, people celebrate.

Unbelievable as it may be, not everyone on this forum paid attention to what was happening in CCWS races and so they don't have any idea of what affect reds can have on a race. To many, anything that can spice up a non oval race, would be a welcomed change.

Now all we have to do is convince them to invert the first five rows on oval races and then there would be some excitement!

[nigelred5]

They need to change the differential between the two compounds. There was sometimes very little difference between the two. They don't necessarily need to make it as dramatic as in the F1 race this weekend, but definitely moreso than they were many times in the Champcar races.

[CCWS77]

There is nothing new about this whatsoever except in the eyes of people who think their side "won". It is the same concept even the same tire company that has already implemented this in the past. You can't ignore "unification" and post that this is a "new" idea and then be surprised that this topic reinvigorates the idea of the split. duh, what do you expect

[NickFalzone]

I don't see anyone claiming that these option reds are "new" to anything but the IndyCar series. Yes, they were used in Champ Car. Maybe DanicaFan should have mentioned that in the original post. But it hardly came across that these option tires were some huge change that no one has ever seen before in road races. One thing that pisses me off is NASCAR announcers claiming that NASCAR invented the SAFER barrier. That's a lie. But no one here is claiming that the IRL invented option soft-compound tires, so these arguments are kind of coming out of nowhere.

[garyshell]

There is nothing new about this whatsoever except in the eyes of people who think their side "won". It is the same concept even the same tire company that has already implemented this in the past. You can't ignore "unification" and post that this is a "new" idea and then be surprised that this topic reinvigorates the idea of the split. duh, what do you expect

Where, except in the eyes of some of those who think their side (my side by the way) lost, do you see any claim that this was a new to the world concept? When I first read the news release, I read it as new to the IRL. I hate the little weasel King George, but I sure as hell didn't see this announcement as a reason to take further exception to the IRL.

Gary

[CCWS77]

I'm not taking exception to the implementation of it or that a press release about it is made in general. The problem is it is not new to the IRL If unification is considered real. How many other things will the IRL adopt from the Champ Car or CART and we have to listen to them being called "new"? It is better described as rebuilding what was lost and should have been implemented at the time a year ago. The problem is this attitude reveals no one on the IRL side takes "unification" seriously yet they expect the Champ Car fans to join with them. As if I hit my head and forget that Champ Car already had this!?

[garyshell]

I'm not taking exception to the implementation of it or that a press release about it is made in general. The problem is it is not new to the IRL If unification is considered real. How many other things will the IRL adopt from the Champ Car or CART and we have to listen to them being called "new"? It is better described as rebuilding what was lost and should have been implemented at the time a year ago. The problem is this attitude reveals no one on the IRL side takes "unification" seriously yet they expect the Champ Car fans to join with them. As if I hit my head and forget that Champ Car already had this!?

The unification was of some of the teams and some of the venues. It was never about the equipment or the rules. To me, your suggestion otherwise is a REAL stretch.

Gary

[CCWS77]

The unification was of some of the teams and some of the venues. It was never about the equipment or the rules.

Thanks for pointing out that the press releases, news coverage and general hysteria about how great "unification" was, was total bull. I had almost forgotten that and moved on until I was reminded, by foolhardy announcements, that ideas it was borrowing from CART were somehow new as opposed to fruits of the union.

I suggest a new motto for the IRL:
Reinventing the wheel. Bringing you innovations you saw in racing years ago!

[garyshell]

Thanks for pointing out that the press releases, news coverage and general hysteria about how great "unification" was, was total bull. I had almost forgotten that and moved on until I was reminded, by foolhardy announcements, that ideas it was borrowing from CART were somehow new as opposed to fruits of the union.

I suggest a new motto for the IRL:
Reinventing the wheel. Bringing you innovations you saw in racing years ago!

Oh I see, every time they do something new to the IRL, that CART or ChampCar did, they are supposed bring up the now defunct series just so some of the former CART fans don't get their panties in a wad. Some of us have moved on and see no need to mention the fact that CART did it first. And for that matter some of us didn't read the announcement as it was a new to the world idea.

Gary

[Wade91]

i think these redwall tires are pretty cool :D

[bzcam]

I saw a photo yesterday, I think it was on Paddocktalk, of Graham's car in St. Pete with the reds on. I had to do a double take - i thought it was Seabass! It was like having deja vu all over again. (Only if it had been Seabass, the car would have been in first and not in last.)

Anyway, my $.02 about the reds is that the cars look way cooler with them on. And making this Dallara look cool is a challenge.....

BZ

[garyshell]

I saw a photo yesterday, I think it was on Paddocktalk, of Graham's car in St. Pete with the reds on. I had to do a double take - i thought it was Seabass! It was like having deja vu all over again. (Only if it had been Seabass, the car would have been in first and not in last.)

Oh, that's right SeaBass had spidey powers and could make his car magically recover from being punted and regain his position instantly.

BTW in case you didn't notice Graham didn't finish in last place.

Gary

[Marbles]

They need to change the differential between the two compounds. There was sometimes very little difference between the two. They don't necessarily need to make it as dramatic as in the F1 race this weekend, but definitely moreso than they were many times in the Champcar races.

Excellent point and my sentiments exactly. Both F1 And CC has used them in the past and the differences were negligible. Some drivers are even marginally slower on these "softer" tires and wear was never really a factor.

But F1 does get things right sometimes and this year they made sure that the differences between prime and option were huge and wear would indeed be a factor. The softees have been likened to gum and have a short honeymoon. This, obviously, leads to a real strategy in regards to tires and the wrong call could cost you or win you the race. Take a gamble on a short green stretch of racing to use them? Short fill and 4 Gummi Bears mid-race to catch up or at the end? Maybe even burn them all up in qualifying?

Could this be such a difficult thing for the IRL to see working in F1. It shouldn't cost them anymore. Just demand it from Firestone... who I believe are owned by the F1 tire suppliers, Bridgestone.

[dataman1]

Like them or don't like them - we can all agree that Justin did one heck of job running on the reds during the first stent with 2 guys behind him on blacks.

[Hoop-98]

Nothing I see in data supports the .5 second improvement. Tags said .2 and I would buy that, although it is set up dependant.

The IndyCar has substantially less aero grip than the F1 or DP01, (more like the 03 Lola) but it's mechanical grip is good.

I am not a fan of mandated alternate tire usage, but I did find it interesting. If it was really worth .5, I would be curious to see how the usage strategies work out.

rh

[Hoop-98]

One of the big issues with the "red" tires is marbleing, as witnessed by all the street sweepers on course during yellows. Essentially they make a one line race track, and take the inside braking areas away. Perhaps the better way to go is to make the "reds" a harder tire instead of a softer one. It would help keep the track cleaner and provide the same performance differential - just in the other direction.


I think maybe the performance difference ans the "marbling" are not accurately known yet.

I need to see more data...

rh

[Mark in Oshawa]

I for one will forgive people unfamiliar with the "Reds" and their history in CCWS for thinking this is something new. When you have had blinders on for 14 years, you tend to ignore the realities around you. I don't blame them for that though, it was the nature of the coverage by the idiots at ABC/ESPN over the last few years.

AS for their impact, I agree, I would much rather see the current regular tires have the red walls and have a harder compound as the regular tire. First off, Firestone isn't competiting with anyone, so safety and providing a good race are the two goals they have. They don't have to out think Goodyear or or Michelin. A tire war never really works in racing. Therefore, put tires on the track that don't create a problem with marbles. It is the bane of street racing when a narrow track becomes impossible to pass on because there is so much tire goo making it a one groove track.

Street races are tough and most of the successful layouts for it have at least 2 to 3 good spots to pass but soft tires render those almost useless after 10 laps.

The new redwall/black tire concept of strategy will work if there is a dramatic enough change in lap times and they don't mess up the track. That is all I ask for....

[DanicaFan]

This first race, I didnt see where the red tires made much of a difference in how the race played out. I didnt see any big advantages of them.

[Mark in Oshawa]

This first race, I didnt see where the red tires made much of a difference in how the race played out. I didnt see any big advantages of them.

Danica, you and I may not have, but I think as the season goes on, Bridgestone/Firestone will give a greater difference in compounds. When CCWS were using them, there was a definable difference in lap times and wear rates with the redwall tires. I think what they are trying to do tho is make them not dirty up the track as much with marbles, and they may have had the softer compound soft enough to make that difference. The announcers did point out Justin ran the fastest times on regular tires. That says to me they were too conservative on the compound for this event in their red walls. Since every track will get different compounds, look for differences later in the season.