Fousto, drop the golf and come to sauna.

[A.F.F.]

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200904/finland

If you guys search for a way to relax, read this article as a hint for the future summers ;)

[janneppi]

I could use some solitude right about now. And a proper wood heated sauna too. It's still too early to use the family cabin, without getting the car stuck on snow on the last bit of road. Oh, well, only two months until it's time to plant potatoes and other weggies in the ground. :)

[A.F.F.]

I will have five weeks of summer vacation this year. From July 6th to 9th of August.

[Tazio]

Solitude except for the three weeks in Phuket ;)

[anthonyvop]

I will have five weeks of summer vacation this year. From July 6th to 9th of August.

Five weeks?

Get a real job.

Also saunas are ok. Not much in the mental stimulation department.

[Garry Walker]

I go to sauna twice a week, at least. What I would do without it, I do not know.

[Roamy]

Holy ButtPlug

Sounds like Hornby Island BC - No thanks - the only sauna you will see me in is about two blocks south of the main drag in Recoleta!!!

[A.F.F.]

Five weeks?

Get a real job.


I thought I had a real job.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I thought I had a real job.\
AFF...no one gets 5 weeks vacation time in North America unless they own the biz, or are working in a union shop and have about 30 years seniority. One of the differences between Europe and North America is we take less vacation time over here....

[Easy Drifter]

When I worked for a large financial institution I got 5 weeks after 30 years. I was also upper mid mgt. There was a catch. You could only take 2 weeks at a time. For years that didn't bug me because I took short periods off for racing, usually two or three days at a time, once in a while a week.
Just before I was entitled to 5 weeks I, with the VP's approval, took 4 weeks so we could take the first real holiday I had ever taken.
Both he and I got a blast.
This was a couple of years after the Co. had been taken over. Morale was lower than a snakes belly and the VP was gone in less than a year. 5 vp's in 3 years in our area. Much more control from the top. People at my level ended up with less authority than staff 3 levels down had previously. After my heart problems I got shoved out the door. My lawyer said we probably could nail the Co. big time for wrongful dismissal but it would take at least 5 years. We had just bought a house and couldn't afford to fight so took an offer.
Within another 3 years almost all of the people at my level were gone. The Co. that took us over paid far less than our old Co. had done so they wanted older people out.
In the old Co. to get to my level you needed at least 15 years of experience.
The new Co. hired staight out of University at about half the salary. Since it was semi legal work involving many pieces of legislation you needed experience only gained over working your way up. That is why they cut everyones' authority. Their people didn't know the job so only top mgt. made decisions. A typical example was cheque signing. My limit had been 1 million with just my signature. Now $100,000 but required two signatures. Above that it had to go to the Board. Anything over $10,000 required one signaure to be one level above mine. Any cheque require two signatures. The second person never had a clue about what they were signing. I managed acounts worth up to $100 million.
Decisions I previously could make on my own now had to go to the Board of Directors. Even the President had little real power.
As I say morale hit rock bottom. A few years later they were bought out and I understand things have gradually gone back as the new hires gained experience. The current owner also pays pretty well.
The Co. that originally took over also raided the Pension Fund but have lost in Court over that. Once all the dust settles there will be a payout in which I will share. I won't say our courts are slow but it has been 18 years. Part of the problem is the Co. on the hook is the current one and they had nothing to do with the pension raid!

[janneppi]

\
AFF...no one gets 5 weeks vacation time in North America unless they own the biz, or are working in a union shop and have about 30 years seniority. One of the differences between Europe and North America is we take less vacation time over here....
Fortunately here life is more than just work. :)

I spent my last week from last years vacation cycle month ago, which was nice, it's good to recharge a bit without thinking about work stuff.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Fortunately here life is more than just work. :)

I spent my last week from last years vacation cycle month ago, which was nice, it's good to recharge a bit without thinking about work stuff.

I agree there is more to life than just work, but for whatever reason, our labour laws over here don't enforce a 5 week vacation schedule. It is a different business mentality here that goes back to the days when North America was a frontier and you worked every day to survive. The fact is that it is the law over there that is likely enforcing that vacation model on business. I do know that some more progressive companies here do offer more vacation time, but I suspect with the latest economic downturn that would be the first thing they would regret having. Productivity models frown on 5 weeks paid vacation....

[A.F.F.]

Did I forget to mention that I left two weeks for next winter. So, seven weeks in total is my vacation per year ;)

Sorry to turn the knife in a wound. That sounds very work orientated life over there Mark. Do you think it'll affect the productivity ?? I mean, would folks over there produce more under less stress and pressure?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Did I forget to mention that I left two weeks for next winter. So, seven weeks in total is my vacation per year ;)

Sorry to turn the knife in a wound. That sounds very work orientated life over there Mark. Do you think it'll affect the productivity ?? I mean, would folks over there produce more under less stress and pressure?

I think we are more productive but I am sure there are studies claiming it both ways. Would we like more time off? Most of us in jobs that we tolerate to make a living would but I suspect there are some VERY hard working people who have fulfilling jobs who wouldn't want 7 weeks off a year.

I look at it this way. There is no way you can produce in 45 work weeks what I can in 50 weeks on the same job. No matter how much worse my mental health is for not having time off, I am going to be still producing when you are on holiday.

Now would I like more time? Damn right. I think there is a happy medium for a productive society and most jobs when you are at them long enough in North America give more paid vacation time off. Our vacation time is fully paid so you can take more often if you are willing to go without the cash you would make. I take about 3 weeks off a year because I am paid a percentage on the mileage I am turning in the big rig and I can make enough when times are good that I can take a week's pay in vacation pay about every 4 months.

[A.F.F.]

Our vacation is fully paid too.

[Eki]

Our vacation is fully paid too.
More than fully paid. In addition to the normal salary, we get so called "lomaraha" (= vacation money).

[A.F.F.]

More than fully paid. In addition to the normal salary, we get so called "lomaraha" (= vacation money).

Which is in my case 5% of annual income after taxes.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Productivity from a dollars and cents side is going be on the North American model, but only an idiot wouldn't want more paid vacation time!!!!

Aaaah...socialist Europe...lol..and I mean that in a good way boys...trust me.

[A.F.F.]

Productivity from a dollars and cents side is going be on the North American model, but only an idiot wouldn't want more paid vacation time!!!!

Aaaah...socialist Europe...lol..and I mean that in a good way boys...trust me.

I know you do Mark :)

[anthonyvop]

I have no need for vacations per se.

I enjoy my work plus I travel a lot.

Now if one of my employees tried to ask for a 5 week vacation I would make his day and give them a permanent vacation. IF you need 5 weeks vacation you are a slacker.

[BDunnell]

I am assuming that those here saying that five weeks' vacation per year is too much are thereby advocating schools operating all year round?

[A.F.F.]

Nope. They just carry a personal grudge on the maker of the thread ;)

[Eki]

IF you need 5 weeks vacation you are a slacker.
Or a hard worker who does his slacking on his own time and not during the work day.

[Garry Walker]

I am assuming that those here saying that five weeks' vacation per year is too much are thereby advocating schools operating all year round?

I am not sure why one would put adults and children as equal in that regard.

[anthonyvop]

Or a hard worker who does his slacking on his own time and not during the work day.
As oppose to somebody like you who is a slacker 24/7.

[Garry Walker]

As oppose to somebody like you who is a slacker 24/7.
Eki works for the government then?

[anthonyvop]

Eki works for the government then?
Worse.

The Government supports him.

[Eki]

Worse.

The Government supports him.
Not currently. But it has in the past (while studying or being unemployed) and will support again if I'll need support (due to unemployment, sickness, disability or old age). Currently I support the government.

[donKey jote]

Five weeks?

Get a real job.


I agree :up:

Us donkeys get 6 weeks :p : :dozey:

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[anthonyvop]

Not currently. But it has in the past (while studying or being unemployed) and will support again if I'll need support (due to unemployment, sickness, disability or old age). Currently I support the government.

So you are proud of being a drain on society?

[Eki]

So you are proud of being a drain on society?
No, but sh!t happens, so there's no reason to be ashamed of it either.

[anthonyvop]

No, but sh!t happens, so there's no reason to be ashamed of it either.

Yes there is.
Failure should bring shame.

[Dave B]

Eki did mention disability and sickness as possible reasons for needing support. If he was hit by a bus and couldn't work for six months, you'd consider him a failure? :s

[anthonyvop]

Eki did mention disability and sickness as possible reasons for needing support. If he was hit by a bus and couldn't work for six months, you'd consider him a failure? :s

A Bus?

Unless you were pushed in it's path you have to be an idiot to get hit by a bus.

So yes.

[A.F.F.]

A Bus?

Unless you were pushed in it's path you have to be an idiot to get hit by a bus.

So yes.

How about bus with a drunk driver crashing in to you? I suppose a failure too. Only an idiot would leave his house that day, right?

[Eki]

A Bus?

Unless you were pushed in it's path you have to be an idiot to get hit by a bus.

So yes.
What about if a kid were about to be hit by a bus, you jump in and save the kid but get hit yourself. Would you also be an idiot?

What about those GIs wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan. Are they idiots too, and should be ashamed and don't deserve any compensation from the government? I mean, nobody forced them to join the Army, they did it all by themselves.

[anthonyvop]

What about those GIs wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan. Are they idiots too, and should be ashamed and don't deserve any compensation from the government? I mean, nobody forced them to join the Army, they did it all by themselves.

Part of their benifits as a soldier is medical care. They don't expect free medical care. they earn it.

[Eki]

Part of their benifits as a soldier is medical care.
Isn't that socialism? Shouldn't they pay their own medical insurance, like your employees probably do? Or do your employees have medical care as part of their benefits? What other benefits your employees have? Free daycare for their children?

[anthonyvop]

Isn't that socialism? Shouldn't they pay their own medical insurance, like your employees probably do? Or do your employees have medical care as part of their benefits? What other benefits your employees have? Free daycare for their children?
You are a silly child.

[Easy Drifter]

There are many different situations. My heart problems were mainly from ultra high blood pressure. My job was very stressful. For me many years motor racing was a stress reliever whether it was driving or later as a mechanic/crew chief, for many years in Pro racing, while holding down a full time job. Once I left racing the stress started to get to me and I found I needed the time off and not just a couple of days at a time. The attrition in my line of work from nervous breakdowns, leaving the job because of stress and serious blood pressure/heart problems hit about 50% of the people at my level.
After I recovered enough from my heart troubles I joined my wife full time in our companies (plural then). We sold one company after several years as the other was growning too much. It was sold last year and I retired at 70. In those 18 years working at our own businesses it was 7 days a week. My longest vacation was back to one or two days at a time except for 5 days off when I got a pacemaker. Latterly we closed Christmas Day, New Years Day and Good Friday. That was it.
Now I spend far too much time on the computer but have also started writing a book. Plan is a "Stand on It" style with the tentative title of 'Seasons in the Sun (and Rain)'. Humour is tough to write and I find I have to be in the right mood. Who knows I may even make a couple of dollars if I ever get it finished.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think Anthony the point has to be made if you have a job you love, then you never need time off. If you are a schlub on an assembly line, 5 weeks would be a nice start because you are losing your mind.

I do agree though that there is some shame in NOT holding down a job if you are able to work and just cant be bothered looking for one, but I wouldn't be getting my knickers in a twist in this economy if I was laid off tomorrow and had to go on Unemploment Insurance either. There is a lot of able bodied people NOT working right now and I can tell you that in my line of work, there is always work, but there is no damn point in working for some moron for the sake of it either. There are tons of trucking jobs, but few are worth having so if I was laid off tomorrow, I would likely take some time off. Would I feel guilty for cashing an unemployment check? Nope. Been paying my EI Benefits for years and I know they wont let me sit on my @ss long even if I wanted to so I might as well take a week and make sure I know who I am applying to. Taking a week off to get one's act together and get a job worth having is better than working in a dead end Crap job for the sake of it....

[Eki]

You are a silly child.

How come? Isn't it as much socialism to have a government run military as having government run healthcare, education and daycare? Shouldn't your military be privately owned and funded corporation or be funded by charity?

[Mark in Oshawa]

How come? Isn't it as much socialism to have a government run military as having government run healthcare, education and daycare? Shouldn't your military be privately owned and funded corporation or be funded by charity?

Eki, I think most of us in this world want to earn our own way. We share responsiblity to help the poor and sick, and the military cannot be run as a profit and loss organization. It has to work, and in the end no amount of money is too little if the military is required to defend your nation. That said, what government has proven repeately in almost every democracy on the planet is they are very ineffiecient in how they spend money, very poor at making sure value is given, and seemingly efficient only at adding more staff, which 9 times out of 10 will be given better salaries and benefits than any other worker in the country at the same job.

Most people if honest about this will grasp that any economy where the government is the greatest employer will not be a robust one. Look only to the economic misery any communist nation lives in where the government is the employer of record for a large number of citizens.

The point of this thread tho is to highlight the differences between the European mentality and culture towards work and play, and the North American one. We over here lean toward working harder longer. You guys in Europe have more paid holidays. I would wish to have it both ways but I know there is a price paid for more time off for any company giving that to its employees. They would have to be a damn sight more competant and productive to make up for 4 or 5 less work weeks a year.

As for the attitude that you are quite happy to take government assistance rather than working ( I believe you didn't see anything wrong with it ), I disagree. The most miserable time in my life was when I was on unemployment and the last time it happened I received only ONE check before I was back working again. Sorry....I like to earn my way and not depend on anyone. That is a natural human trait. We are after all animals at our base instincts and in the world where Darwin's theories hold sway, you survive on your own wits and labour, not waiting around hoping the government will save you.

One only has to see how the great scam of Social Security in the US or Canada Pensions and how they are now inadequete they are for retiree's and what was promised to understand why most of us over on this side of the ocean do NOT trust government.....

[Eki]

As for the attitude that you are quite happy to take government assistance rather than working ( I believe you didn't see anything wrong with it ), I disagree.
I never said anything like that, and feel kind of insulted. When I was unemployed, just like about 20% of the Finnish working force at that time, and just out of University, it was against my own will and I rather had been working, but I needed the unemployment benefits to survive. And when I was studying and got student allowance from the government, I was studying to get a good job someday. And when my mother got cancer before she died, she really needed the affordable and subsidized health care. And when my father died suddenly at the age of 28 when I was 2 and my sister 5, my mother really could use some government support to raise us alone, even when she was working.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I never said anything like that, and feel kind of insulted. When I was unemployed, just like about 20% of the Finnish working force at that time, and just out of University, it was against my own will and I rather had been working, but I needed the unemployment benefits to survive. And when I was studying and got student allowance from the government, I was studying to get a good job someday. And when my mother got cancer before she died, she really needed the affordable and subsidized health care. And when my father died suddenly at the age of 28 when I was 2 and my sister 5, my mother really could use some government support to raise us alone, even when she was working.


I apolgize then, no worries. The government in your country and the manner it runs its healthcare system worked for you and your parents, and I am not knocking that. My point was and I obviously misread your meaning is you were comfortable living on government existence. You have corrected me on that and that's cool.

As for the role of government in healthcare, all the Americans on the forum here will point out is that their private healthcare system for them DOES work, and they have options. I live in a country where I cannot go to a doctor and pay him directly for services I may want NOW. In the US, I could. I would be free to choose my healthcare options and providers. Here, I would have to wait for a year or more for a family doctor if I decided to leave my current MD. If I had an ailment that was non life threatening, I may have to wait 6 months for treatment. In the US I would have no waiting for any of that.

The point has been made more than once that government healthcare is a great idea in theory, but in reality it often is like governement often is, inefficient and slow to react.

As for Unemployment Insurance, I have no issues with having it but there has to be a line where people realize that it is a short term support only.