What are Citoens chances of winning the manufacters tiltle?

[Ed]

I was just think with Sordos result in Sweden and the fact that both Fords were on the podium, does anyone else think that Citoren are going to struggle to overhawl Ford this year. Theres no doubting that Sordo is quick on ashalt, but what about the lose services?

[Brother John]

IMO its like this!
Ford has 60% chances!
Citroën has 40% chances!

[Tomi]

The chances are still good, but if they will run Sordo on loose all season, they dont have any chance.

[Finni]

I think Citroen might still be favourite. They will take 18 points from every asphalt round and Loeb is favourite to collect most points from the drivers.

[alambie]

I think Ford will take Manufacturer's... but the Citreon's will give them a good battle.... Would be good to see Marcus take Drivers, and Manufacturer's...

Would make a great retirment.. (If it happens)

[Tomski]

You've also got to factor Ford's M2 teams, who could keep Sordo well down the finishing positions on gravel. The first places will always be between Marcus & Seb, but on the loose Ford have Mikko & Henning, and then there's the Subaru's who can get in the way. The manufacturers will be dificult for Citroen.

[Buzz Lightyear]

It might be too early to call Sordo a 'one trick pony', but....

[JAM]

I have a diferent opinion because believe that Sord will improve this year on gravel rallyes. Last year was first season with a WRC car and the results were not so bad, could had been better but no bad at all. On gravel he is not a man to win, but is a man to earn points regularly.

Sometimes people forget that some other drivers like Sordo are on WRC and have worst results, and people keep always saying that they will improve. Usually i don't see many nice posts about Sordo...

Do we have any driver that on his first WRC season with a WRC car was better then Sordo? Please reply...

[WRC2006]

For me I will wait to see how the C4 is doing on gravel and the new Impreza.

But I am wondering that Ford is in strong position to win this championship. Hirvonen showing that the 3rd place is his, Henning doing well with the Focus, like someone said above, those 2 Guys will have to do all is possible to keep behind them Sordo, Chris and Petter.

It is clear also that the 1 & 2 places will be always the battle between Loeb and Marcus with Loeb scoring more points if the C4 stays reliable.

[Tomi]

Do we have any driver that on his first WRC season with a WRC car was better then Sordo? Please reply...
There is many on loose surface, but like Tomski say's this year there is many drivers that will propably finish before sordo on gravel, but on tarmac sordo is brilliant. But I think we all know there is far many loose events than tarmac ones.

[WRC2006]

I have a diferent opinion because believe that Sord will improve this year on gravel rallyes. Last year was first season with a WRC car and the results were not so bad, could had been better but no bad at all. On gravel he is not a man to win, but is a man to earn points regularly.

Sometimes people forget that some other drivers like Sordo are on WRC and have worst results, and people keep always saying that they will improve. Usually i don't see many nice posts about Sordo...

Do we have any driver that on his first WRC season with a WRC car was better then Sordo? Please reply...


Apart his driving style, He had a reliable car than others we could quote here.

For example, Mikko in Subaru had worst results because of the crap car. But see how he improved last year particularly in the second part of the season? And now how he is doing.

[A.F.F.]

Citroen is a scary opponent for Ford and I believe that Mr.Wilson woulnd't mind Subaru helping them since Stobart can't do so. Not unless Latvala gathers himslef and start finishing rallies.

[JAM]

Apart his driving style, He had a reliable car than others we could quote here.

For example, Mikko in Subaru had worst results because of the crap car. But see how he improved last year particularly in the second part of the season? And now how he is doing.

How many years has Mikko driving a WRC car on WRChampionship? 2006 was his fourth year.... 2006 was first year of Sordo...

2004 was the first year of Mikko in Subaru and i have no idea that the Impreza WRC2004 was a crap car. Solberg was second on drivers championship standings in front of Peugeot and Ford drivers and behind Loeb in Citroen. Still thinks that 2004 Impreza was a crap car?

[Brother John]

How many years has Mikko driving a WRC car on WRChampionship? 2006 was his fourth year.... 2006 was first year of Sordo...

2004 was the first year of Mikko in Subaru and i have no idea that the Impreza WRC2004 was a crap car. Solberg was second on drivers championship standings in front of Peugeot and Ford drivers and behind Loeb in Citroen. Still thinks that 2004 Impreza was a crap car?

Yes, still think that from 2004 Impreza was going down in performce!
You can see that Ford was groing the last 2 years and Citroën became better!
Where is Peugeot at the moment?
Is It only the car in Petter´s case?
I don´t think so after what I saw in Sweden!

[JAM]

Yes, still think that from 2004 Impreza was going down in performce!
You can see that Ford was groing the last 2 years and Citroën became better!
Where is Peugeot at the moment?
Is It only the car in Petter´s case?
I don´t think so after what I saw in Sweden!

I was talking about the Impreza in 2004, not the following years. At that time the car was still good, at leasta was the seciond better car in 2004 season.

But what surprises me is the fact that some drivers that are on WRC at 2 or 3 years without making big results are always defended by a lot of members, and a driver that proved to be good and fast (besides the lack of experience) in his first year is not so well defended by the majority of members. I think that something is wrong... Sordo can't beat Loeb, it's true, but Sainz, McRae, Duval and Pons weren't either able to beat the frenchman.

[N.O.T]

Citroen will become champions 100% No chance for any other team.....the Ford kids have many crashes to do still so.....

[Finni]

2004 Subaru was superfast. Solberg outpaced others many times with that car - sometimes he was 0.5 sec per/km faster than others in normal conditions. With that very same car he even won rally of Sweden 2005 which was its last rally. Petter's championship was lost due to poor asphalt pace of Pirelli and many technical issues (three?).

[Brother John]

I was talking about the Impreza in 2004, not the following years. At that time the car was still good, at leasta was the seciond better car in 2004 season.

But what surprises me is the fact that some drivers that are on WRC at 2 or 3 years without making big results are always defended by a lot of members, and a driver that proved to be good and fast (besides the lack of experience) in his first year is not so well defended by the majority of members. I think that something is wrong... Sordo can't beat Loeb, it's true, but Sainz, McRae, Duval and Pons weren't either able to beat the frenchman.

Probable a lot of forum members don´t like the many victories of Citroën and link this frustration with the Citroën drivers? I have myself no other explanation or answer on your question concerning why Sordo is not defended here in his first (second!?) year in wrc!

[Donney]

I think Citroen don't look as strong as last year but we have to count on many things. Ford has to hit troubles at some point and maybe a miracle will happen and the new Subaru is a good car.

In what regards Sordo I think he has a lot to learn on snow, no doubt about that, but I'm sure his results on gravel will be much better this year, he showed some good times last year in some occasions and I reckon his confidences is back after his crash in Finland.

I think the guys in Citroen know what they're doing and if they've put their money on Sordo, there's got to be something about him.

I'm not saying Sordo will be the new Loeb, but let's remember the many doubts everybody had on Loeb when he first appeared on the scene.

[Tom206wrc]

Ford and Bosse might be leaders after Norway rally(unless Henning Solberg uses his experience to win the event :D )but after that period things could change !!!

I imagine Loeb could beat Grönholm on main gravel events and Sordo finish in drivers points, but it's true that Hirvonen might also still be the best 2nd driver again(not on tarmac though)...

[A.F.F.]

Citroen will become champions 100% No chance for any other team.....the Ford kids have many crashes to do still so.....

You have high hopes Vinku Iivari. :)

Wonderboy will balance the crashes all by himself.

[White Sauron]

Citroen will become champions 100% No chance for any other team.....the Ford kids have many crashes to do still so.....

You are very biaised about Citroen...

[Corny]

Citroën, they simply have the best car

[cut the b.s.]

I think the guys in Citroen know what they're doing and if they've put their money on Sordo, there's got to be something about him.

.

Thing is they havent, he put his money in them!! Sordo is brilliant on tar, he will I think be even better than Seb on it, its early days in his career but I think he may be a bit of a Panizzi. This year will tell a lot. People forget how long a season is now, in 95 we only had 8 events, Mikko, Daniel etc are a lot more experienced than people often think if you talk number of events rather than number of years

[N.O.T]

You people realise that Sordo is still young ???? He is no can opener like Rova who never learned to drive on Tarmac or Panizzi who by the way did some promising times on rough rallies.....Citroen i think have long term plans for Sordo....who by the way i think its a very good 2nd driver for any team because he will demolish Gronholm on tarmac like he did on Monte thus making the job for loeb easier and i think that top 5 finishes on gravel will guarantee Citroen the championship since the Ford Kids will start crashing as usual.

[MikeD]

I have a diferent opinion because believe that Sord will improve this year on gravel rallyes. Last year was first season with a WRC car and the results were not so bad, could had been better but no bad at all. On gravel he is not a man to win, but is a man to earn points regularly.

Sometimes people forget that some other drivers like Sordo are on WRC and have worst results, and people keep always saying that they will improve. Usually i don't see many nice posts about Sordo...

Do we have any driver that on his first WRC season with a WRC car was better then Sordo? Please reply...

I agree. I am way more impressed with Sordo than I have ever been with Hirvonen. After Norway, Sordo will prove that he can finish between 3-5 in every gravel event.

Citroen will win both championship easely. People who think Ford has a chance are fooling themselves.

[MikeD]

Thing is they havent, he put his money in them!! Sordo is brilliant on tar, he will I think be even better than Seb on it, its early days in his career but I think he may be a bit of a Panizzi.

No offence but that's is nonsense. How many podiums, let alone pointfinishing scores did Panizzi have on gravel? Sordo has 7 pointfinishing score on gravel out of 11. That's pretty impressive in a debut season.

[Donney]

Thing is they havent, he put his money in them!! Sordo is brilliant on tar, he will I think be even better than Seb on it, its early days in his career but I think he may be a bit of a Panizzi. This year will tell a lot. People forget how long a season is now, in 95 we only had 8 events, Mikko, Daniel etc are a lot more experienced than people often think if you talk number of events rather than number of years

That depends on what you call putting money on. They've given him the chance to develop and drive the new car, the same car that Loeb is driving plus a long contract.

He needs time, that is all. Look at Hirvonen who finally now is starting to deliver good results and looks more and more reliable and confident. He needed time, so does Sordo.

[White Sauron]

You people realise that Sordo is still young ???? He is no can opener like Rova who never learned to drive on Tarmac or Panizzi who by the way did some promising times on rough rallies.....Citroen i think have long term plans for Sordo....who by the way i think its a very good 2nd driver for any team because he will demolish Gronholm on tarmac like he did on Monte thus making the job for loeb easier and i think that top 5 finishes on gravel will guarantee Citroen the championship since the Ford Kids will start crashing as usual.
You can't claim this! Ford made absolutely wrong tyre choice BEFORE Monte rally. Gronholm wasn't on the same level field with Citroen guys, but still finished third. I bet with everything oing right for hm he will be quicker then Sordo on other rallies, maybe even beat Loeb in Spain. Don't you remeber? He was quicker than the frenchman there last year!

[aivan]

I just want to say that, even finishing 12th in Sweden, Sordo scored 1 point for Citroen for the manu title. That in what I think is his worst event, alongside with Norway.
Give the kid some time... I agree with JAM.
If he was a finn last year everybody would have said he was the next big thing.
He needs to mature, he has done amazing mistakes (Cyprus) but also has shown great things. He was not doing so bad in Finland till he got off. Let alone the tarmac performances.

VAMOS DANI!!!!

[JAM]

If he was a finn last year everybody would have said he was the next big thing.

You're wrong

If from UK probably the most of members would say "give time because this is the future WRC champion within some years..." :D but as is spanish theu don't tal. Very limited vision... Sordo in Spain and Armindo in Portugal :s mokin:

[Koppomsbo]

Citroen will become champions 100% No chance for any other team.....the Ford kids have many crashes to do still so.....

And the citroen boys dont???? I mean, if sordo cant stand the pressure of the mms stage in Cyprus....

[JAM]

And the citroen boys dont???? I mean, if sordo cant stand the pressure of the mms stage in Cyprus....


But you have to agree that the Ford boys crash more often than the Citro boys.

[jens]

Sordo and also the C4 on snow/tarmac can only get better in the future! So I'd say C4 has as good chances as Focus. Probably it will be down to that when and how many problems will each car have. No retirements so far for none of them.

[Tomi]

This tread is about THIS years manu.championship, Sordo is i belive Citroens weak point now thinking, there is good chance that he make progress in coming years on loose, i dont think anyone dissagree about that, it's nothing personal against Spains drivers or other childish.

[A.F.F.]

There are some good points in this thread and then there are Mr. Mousefart who just want to wind up things as usual :laugh: Pathetic.

[Lousada]

Last year right before Loebs accident, Kronos had 142 points and Ford 135. Out of these 142 points, 112 were scored by Loeb alone!

[leno]

Ford 49,5 %
Citroen 49,5%
Subaru 1% :D

[koko0703]

Strictly speaking of this years manufacturer's championship, I think Ford is in favor of title over Citroen. No offense to Sordo, but the fact is that he's still young and unexperienced. I'm sure Sordo will develop himself to become a great driver and even a future champion, but looking at this season, Gronholm-Hirvonen line up is stronger than Loeb-Sordo. Also Ford is still using 2006 car.... I heard Focus WRC07 is coming out in Finland, right??? So Ford has possibility to blow away C4 with new car. (Just possibility but there is definitely possibility ;) )

[cut the b.s.]

No offence but that's is nonsense. How many podiums, let alone pointfinishing scores did Panizzi have on gravel? Sordo has 7 pointfinishing score on gravel out of 11. That's pretty impressive in a debut season.

Panizzi was a decent gravel driver, but not the fastest, for me to compare anyone to Giles is not meant as an insult. Remember also Panizzi drove when WRC had more than 5 or 6 drivers with realistic podium hopes

As I stated before I think Sordo has done a good job so far, but I feel ultimately he will prove weak on the predominant surface in the WRC, Gravel

One thing all the young bucks seem to have less of than Giles is carisma ;-)

[A.F.F.]

IMO Panizzi was decent only on slow and twisty gravel rallies. Super fast like Finland, NZ and OZ he was really lost.

[N.O.T]

My point is...Citroen doesn't need Sordo to win the manu title...they have Loeb and Gronholm so...

[Helstar]

2004 Subaru was superfast. Solberg outpaced others many times with that car - sometimes he was 0.5 sec per/km faster than others in normal conditions. With that very same car he even won rally of Sweden 2005 which was its last rally. Petter's championship was lost due to poor asphalt pace of Pirelli and many technical issues (three?).
Are you talking about 2004 or 2005 ... anyway, Pirelli lacked competitive tarmac tyres in 2006 not 2004/05 !

My point is...Citroen doesn't need Sordo to win the manu title...they have Loeb and Gronholm so...
Citroen has Loeb and Bosse, mh ? Don't get the meaning ^^

Basicly the question is: can Hirvonen perform better than Sordo and get the points that Bosse will eventually lost to Loeb ? On tarmac no hope for Ford, Citroen will do full of points.
But on gravel and snow in spite of all (as we have seen), it's in favour of Ford. I think it will be close til the end. And better it will, more interest :)

[N.O.T]

Are you talking about 2004 or 2005 ... anyway, Pirelli lacked competitive tarmac tyres in 2006 not 2004/05 !

Citroen has Loeb and Bosse, mh ? Don't get the meaning ^^



You will when the real gravel rallies start....

[koko0703]

You will when the real gravel rallies start....

Oh I see... :D

[A.F.F.]

NOT is certain Marcus will roll in most of the gravel rallies. I'm not. If you look at last year, how many mistakes Marcus did more than Loeb?? Loeb had one in Monte. Marcus had one in Mexico. Then Marcus had mechanical problems.

Marcus have a different strategy for this year. Finish every rally with maximum score of points they can have without fooling around. Can he stick with that strategy is another thing.

[MikeD]

NOT is certain Marcus will roll in most of the gravel rallies. I'm not. If you look at last year, how many mistakes Marcus did more than Loeb?? Loeb had one in Monte. Marcus had one in Mexico. Then Marcus had mechanical problems.

Marcus have a different strategy for this year. Finish every rally with maximum score of points they can have without fooling around. Can he stick with that strategy is another thing.

Fact is that Grönholm makes to many mistakes when Loeb is putting pressure on him. Don't get me wrong, Grönholm is very good, but he just can't get the better of Loeb. When he faces this again this year, his frustration might be a factor that will lead to even more mistakes.

[JAM]

Basicly the question is: can Hirvonen perform better than Sordo and get the points that Bosse will eventually lost to Loeb ?

That's one of the interests of this year. See if Sordo is hable to beat Hirvonen on gravel rallyes.

[Donney]

I don't think he can yet, but he'll do good results.

[Halvis]

I think Ford will take the manu title, mainly because Hirvonen will take a lot more points than Sordo. The situation between Loeb and Marcus will be pretty even I think, the key will be which one that finishes the most rallies.

I don't think the C4 is as superior as the Xsara was, and maybe not so durable either. We all knew that it would be very fast on tarmac, gravel is another thing - and not yet to be proven in a rally. I wouldn't rule out more mech probs in the tough rallies either.

[Buzz Lightyear]

Grönholm is very good, but he just can't get the better of Loeb. When he faces this again this year, his frustration might be a factor that will lead to even more mistakes.

Didnt marcus just wipe with floor with loeb?

[Zes]

Last year Dani collected 49points and almost half of them (23pts) he got from 4 tarmac rallies. Mikko collected 65points and 58 of them were from gravel events. When Dani finished a gravel rally, he was usually 4-5minutes behind Marcus/Seb. I am sure he will improve that, but the gap is just too big at the moment.

Marcus said in his column that in his opinion C4 performance doesn't seem too spectacular. He said that in Monte 2006 Citroen was more faster compared to Ford than it was now. If Ford has chosen right tyres for Monte, it would have been much closer fight.

Ford will win the manufacturer's this year and Marcus has a good possibility to take the driver's championship. I am just afraid that he will make one mistake and that will probably be enough, unless Seb will continue his bicycle hobby...

[Ranger]

The objective answer to the thread question is "High".

Of course, if Seb is out of the team for more than 2 rounds, then those chances are significantly battered.

[MikeD]

Didnt marcus just wipe with floor with loeb?

Yes in Sweden and he will do so in Norway - they are snow rallies. After that he will win a maximum of two gravel events in the rest of the year.

And btw, he didn't wipe the floor as much as Loeb and Sordo wiped his floor in Monaco. When Loeb has a bad rally his still finishes second.

[Jaanus]

I agree with many here who think that Citroen's chances are very high. The current point system favours reliability over anything else. Ford has a good car and good drivers, but so far they don't have the reliability of Loeb and Citroen. No matter if it is driver error or a mechanical error, but one mistake from Ford will be very hardly punished by Loeb, who will be allways there to collect the most points he can.

[Isthmus]

Jaanus, aswell as any mistake from Loeb/citroën, Gronholm will be there to collect too.

About this tread, i think Citroën will take the manufacters, even if Sordo will be far at gravel events. But at tarmac will give the maximum points to Citroën. Last year, Loeb and Sordo already did 1-2 at 2 events, Germany and Spain.

Back to Monte07, citroën had hard tyres and Ford plus soft. It gave some advantage to Citroën in the first day with the very fast ss. But, in the morning, the roads where full of water and very icy, wich could give some improvements to Focus performances, but it simple didn´t...c4´s had continued demolishing.

In Sweden, i guess you are forgetting about the 8s lost in the very first special, aswell as the 12 very strange seconds in the ss5( about the heli, you remember). Even so, he ended the first day with only 11s behind Gronholm. Loeb/C4 is more competitive than ever in snow! Lets see how it will be in Norway ;)
Of course, its just my point of view, and many of you do not agree with it, as i´ve been reading eheh :)

[jso1985]

I give Citroën 70% chances of winning the teams title.
They have the potential to sweep the floor to Ford in tarmac rallies so it basically depends if Sordo can finish no more than 1 position behind Hirvonen.(asuming Loeb wins)
I think they can win and I hope they will

[White Sauron]

Yes in Sweden and he will do so in Norway - they are snow rallies. After that he will win a maximum of two gravel events in the rest of the year.

And btw, he didn't wipe the floor as much as Loeb and Sordo wiped his floor in Monaco. When Loeb has a bad rally his still finishes second.
You're biaised. It means Loeb will win 13 events this year? hahahaha

[MikeD]

You're biaised.

You write that to every post you disagree with. Improve your debating skills!

[A.F.F.]

[quote="MikeD"] After that he will win a maximum of two gravel events in the rest of the year.
QUOTE]


I will mark your word MikeD.

[Finni]

In Sweden, i guess you are forgetting about the 8s lost in the very first special, aswell as the 12 very strange seconds in the ss5( about the heli, you remember). Even so, he ended the first day with only 11s behind Gronholm. Loeb/C4 is more competitive than ever in snow! Lets see how it will be in Norway ;)

I wonder if Loeb lost most from those 12 secs due to helicopter because he was slower than Grönholm in every split and Grönholm said that he pushed most at middle point of the stage (where Loeb lost most in two different split section). But I would say that C4's performance was not bad at all - hardly weaker than Xsara's.

Somebody gave 70% of chance to Citroen's manufacturer title. I think it's quite good prediction. Loeb is likely to collect more points than Marcus in the long run and Sordo will compensate his lack of gravel performance on asphalt. It's fully possible that Citroen will take 18 points in every tarmac event. In reliability wise it's hard to predict anything. Reliability of the cars will be important factor. I hope that Citroen will show some vulnerability. It would be refreshing.

[MikeD]

After that he will win a maximum of two gravel events in the rest of the year.
QUOTE]


I will mark your word MikeD.

:D If I am wrong I'll buy you a beer (maybe a KOFF?)

[jonas_mcrae]

i think a factor that is as important as reliability of the c4 and marcus not making many mistakes is the subarus and henning in the focus, if petter drives carefully and takes care of the impreza he can be up there 3rd i think or lower if he makes mistakes but most important in the points, atko is imporving and if henning stays error free he can take many points from Dani in the gravel and snow, my guess is that ford is less affected by this because gronholm is in the top and hirvo is usually faster and drifes more carefully than the subs and henning, so the real factor is Sordo loosing points to the "others"

[Zes]

i think a factor that is as important as reliability of the c4 and marcus not making many mistakes is the subarus and henning in the focus, if petter drives carefully and takes care of the impreza he can be up there 3rd i think or lower if he makes mistakes but most important in the points, atko is imporving and if henning stays error free he can take many points from Dani in the gravel and snow, my guess is that ford is less affected by this because gronholm is in the top and hirvo is usually faster and drifes more carefully than the subs and henning, so the real factor is Sordo loosing points to the "others"

That is correct. Last year when Dani finished gravel events, he was usually 4-5 minutes from the top. Even if he could be as close as 2-3 min from the top this year, there will be atleast some Subies, Xsaras, Stobart-Fords even Mitsu ahead of Dani.

[aivan]

This tread is about THIS years manu.championship, Sordo is i belive Citroens weak point now thinking, there is good chance that he make progress in coming years on loose, i dont think anyone dissagree about that, it's nothing personal against Spains drivers or other childish.

I have to say you're completely right. We're talking about THIS year. Citroen's weak point this year is Sordo.
Let's see if it's weak enough or not.

The great think is that it looks like we have a competition!!!

[Helstar]

Basicly the question is: can Hirvonen perform better than Sordo and get the points that Bosse will eventually lost to Loeb ? On tarmac no hope for Ford, Citroen will do full of points.
But on gravel and snow in spite of all (as we have seen), it's in favour of Ford. I think it will be close til the end. And better it will, more interest :)
Yup it seems I got it ... now we will have only gravel and tarmac.

Tarmac ... 18 points per each rally for Citroen (Germany, Spain, Corsica and Ireland ?) while Ford can take 11 points (3°-4° position, sometimes even less if Subaru guys do good jobs as Atko did in Montecarlo).

We will have 7x4 points for Citroen. 28 ... now we have 16 points more for Ford, so counting tarmac rallies we will have 12 points for Citroen ahead.
It remains 9 gravel rallies in which all has to be decided.

Very curious to see how C4 performs on gravel. I think they (Sordo mostly) will struggle on slow narrow rallies, while in Finland and fast rallies it will be very close - of course I don't see Sordo better than the 4th place if the other three finish.

Close battle until the end :thumbsup:

[Corny]

Why do all guys think that C4 will be so much better on tarmac than the Ford..
Don't you guys remember the years 03/04? That was the same situation as it is now, Märtin could beat Loeb on tarmac by then with a almost 2 years old car..
And Germany has got a lot tight corners, so if the C4 stays to struggle on tight corners, Ford will win there

[FabiaFan]

I wonder why Ford and Citroen do not use drivers-specialists, if the title would be so important for them??? Would be so easy for Citroen to hire let's say Gardemeister for Swe,Nor,Fin (Aus? NZ? ...?) or for Ford to hire Duval or Bengue or Robert or ... for Monte, Corsica, Spain, IRL ???

[White Sauron]

I wonder why Ford and Citroen do not use drivers-specialists, if the title would be so important for them??? Would be so easy for Citroen to hire let's say Gardemeister for Swe,Nor,Fin (Aus? NZ? ...?) or for Ford to hire Duval or Bengue or Robert or ... for Monte, Corsica, Spain, IRL ???

Maybe the want to make new Loeb of Sordo and new Gronholm of Hirvonen? Real champions must be all-rounders.

[jens]

Maybe the want to make new Loeb of Sordo and new Gronholm of Hirvonen? Real champions must be all-rounders.

Yeah, but they nominate another driver to drive for manufacturers points! It doesn't mean that Sordo shouldn't participate in snow events. He drives, but only for individual points.

Is the reason for not taking that action really because teams lack of funds to give a drive for three drivers at one rally?

[FabiaFan]

So what do the teams want more??? To raise further individual champs or to win the manu title???

[White Sauron]

So what do the teams want more??? To raise further individual champs or to win the manu title???
Under current REGULATIONS they won't raise manufacturers' title if they don't develop an all-rounder champion.

[cut the b.s.]

Why do all guys think that C4 will be so much better on tarmac than the Ford..
Don't you guys remember the years 03/04? That was the same situation as it is now, Märtin could beat Loeb on tarmac by then with a almost 2 years old car..
And Germany has got a lot tight corners, so if the C4 stays to struggle on tight corners, Ford will win there


Citroens pair of drivers are better on tar than Fords, if the C4 is nearly as good on tar as the focus the drivers can make the difference for Citroen

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Have I missed something? Can't Citroën enter say Loeb, Sordo and Gardemeister for a gravel rally, and nominate Garde and Loeb to take manu points? Shouldn't be any downside with that, right?

[Zes]

Yup it seems I got it ... now we will have only gravel and tarmac.

Tarmac ... 18 points per each rally for Citroen (Germany, Spain, Corsica and Ireland ?) while Ford can take 11 points (3°-4° position, sometimes even less if Subaru guys do good jobs as Atko did in Montecarlo).

We will have 7x4 points for Citroen. 28 ... now we have 16 points more for Ford, so counting tarmac rallies we will have 12 points for Citroen ahead.
It remains 9 gravel rallies in which all has to be decided.

Very curious to see how C4 performs on gravel. I think they (Sordo mostly) will struggle on slow narrow rallies, while in Finland and fast rallies it will be very close - of course I don't see Sordo better than the 4th place if the other three finish.

Close battle until the end :thumbsup:

I just don't get it how some people think Citroen will automatically get full points from all tarmac rallies. Ford is not that far away. Don't you remember Spain 2006? Marcus was actually fastest there, he won 10 stages out of 16. He would have won it easily without mechanical problems. Also in TdC Marcus won Sordo with 1.5minutes. I haven't seen anything that would prove C4 to be better car compared to Focus than Xsara was last year.

[FabiaFan]

Have I missed something? Can't Citroën enter say Loeb, Sordo and Gardemeister for a gravel rally, and nominate Garde and Loeb to take manu points? Shouldn't be any downside with that, right?
Yes, it is exactly like that... and I simply don't get it why they don't make use of it... when claiming that the manu title would be so important for them... even more important than the individual one...

[White Sauron]

I just don't get it how some people think Citroen will automatically get full points from all tarmac rallies. Ford is not that far away. Don't you remember Spain 2006? Marcus was actually fastest there, he won 10 stages out of 16. He would have won it easily without mechanical problems. Also in TdC Marcus won Sordo with 1.5minutes. I haven't seen anything that would prove C4 to be better car compared to Focus than Xsara was last year.

Agree with you!

[Roy]

Offcourse is possible to switch the second car seat. Ford does it in 2004. In Sweden and Finland didn't drive Duval, but Tuohino. In 2005 was H. Solberg driver in Sweden and Hirvonen in Finland. Both for Kresta. They drives for the manufacturer points.
Peugeot did the switch with Loix, Robert and Rovanpera for some years.

Citroen can ask a good gravel driver (with money) to drive a C4. Gardemeister is fast and has (few) money for some rallies. But there are more gravel roads then tarmac. It will be stupid you payed a driver and then only let drive him on 4 tarmac events for your points. Citroen want to invest in Sordo. They see in him a fast, good driver. Even on gravel.

And that is in my opinion fault. They loose to much with Sordo on gravel. Maybe he learn more and more, but for this year I think it is not enough for Sordo.
There is the Ford quartet. And we have the Subaru drivers as well. They beat him all. Citroen has a few change to win the manu title.

[jonkka]

Have I missed something? Can't Citroën enter say Loeb, Sordo and Gardemeister for a gravel rally, and nominate Garde and Loeb to take manu points? Shouldn't be any downside with that, right?

They could. But it to be a realistic alternative, the 3rd driver should be familiar with the car instead of just jumping in. When such tactics were employed by likes of Peugeot in early this millenia, Panizzi drove all gravel rallies and Rovanpera all tarmac rallies even if they weren't nominated to score. Driver knew the car and was in touch with driving at competition speeds.

Examples of how to not to do it come from Mitsubishi and Gardemeister who in 2001 jumped into Lancer for two events and didn't perform at all. Or Peugeot's use of Cedric Robert in 2004 in place of Freddy Loix etc.

[Tomi]

For Citroen i belive it's' very realistic to think that they soon look for a better driver on loose surface to score points, there is many to choose from, who i belive can do the job better than Sordo. It's not good for Citroen if a few xara's start beating their new car too often.

[Finni]

I just don't get it how some people think Citroen will automatically get full points from all tarmac rallies. Ford is not that far away. Don't you remember Spain 2006? Marcus was actually fastest there, he won 10 stages out of 16. He would have won it easily without mechanical problems. Also in TdC Marcus won Sordo with 1.5minutes. I haven't seen anything that would prove C4 to be better car compared to Focus than Xsara was last year.

Of course it's not impossible that Marcus is involved to winning battle in some asphalt rallies. My opinion anyway is that Sordo and Loeb are biggest favourites in every tarmac rally. I think that C4 is faster than Xsara on asphalt and Sordo is only marginally behind Seb. C4's perfomance in loose snow is not indicaticative about tarmac pace. And it's far from clear that C4 was worser on snow than Xsara. Actually C4 looked very strong at some points but in some conditions it behaved badly (when there was much snow on the road).

[bigtom]

I think its going to be tough for Citroen to beat Ford in the constructors this year, gronholm and Loeb are very similar in strength, so its going to come down to the second cars performance. And Hirvonen is better than Sordo. I guess its mostly going to depend on retirements.

[Karukera]

Citroën's chances of taking the manu were very little before the season started.

Citroën can spot 2 pilots on a podium on 5 rallies, including Eire, a rally Ford has already practiced.

Ford can reasonably expect their 2 pilots to be on the podium on about 11/12 rallies.

If reliability is the same for both marques which would be nothing but normal for Citroën considering the 2 years testings and assuming Seb and Marcus fight for the wins plus Mikko being closer and closer if not ahead in every rally, Dani will do well but will logically be behind the big 3, plus the 2nd Citroën's car will lose points from Subaru, Stobart and Kronos.

Then, there are big chances for Ford to pocket their 2nd title in row at the end of Japan, a rally Mikko will win.

Vamos Dani ! :up:

[jens]

C4 looked very good on gravel - probably even better than expected, being able to match Focus. Besides Loeb also Sordo is clearly more competitive on gravel than on snow, so Citroen's hopes for manufacturer's title are still open.

[Wim_Impreza]

C4 looked very good on gravel - probably even better than expected, being able to match Focus. Besides Loeb also Sordo is clearly more competitive on gravel than on snow, so Citroen's hopes for manufacturer's title are still open.

Don't forget that Citroën was always very strong in Mexico.

[I am evil Homer]

I think its going to be tough for Citroen to beat Ford in the constructors this year, gronholm and Loeb are very similar in strength, so its going to come down to the second cars performance. And Hirvonen is better than Sordo. I guess its mostly going to depend on retirements.

I take issue with the idea Mikko is better than Dani - he's got a lot more experience in a WRC car, and Dani is still learning a lot. But I agree the title is more likely to go to Ford as Mikko can out pace Dani on most events.