1 in 3 UK students think a woman is at least partially responsible for rape

[Brown, Jon Brow]

http://www.national-student.co.uk/pa...ng_for_it.html

Now this is a debate from another forum and I would like to make clear that I don't think a women can be 'partly' responsible for being raped. All the responsibility is with the sick people who commit the crimes.

But I've been called 'facetious' for suggesting that it isn't sensible for women to walk through urban parks late at night.

I'm staggered :s

[Dave B]

1 in 3 UK students think a woman is at least partially responsible for rape
And she's getting bloody fed up with it...

[MrJan]

A woman doesn't cry out to be raped but I can understand where the 1 in 3 are coming from. If you go out on a Firday or Saturday night then you will see some girls wearing outfits that make your eyes water. They where the clothes to draw attention to themselves and it's a sad fact of life that it'll include unwanted attention. Add to the exhibishionism a few Lambrinas and double vodka cokes and it seems fairly obvious what could happen, I mean some women are so paralytic of a Saturday night that they are going to be easy prey for sick s. Okay so without the sick s none of it would happen but sometimes it's like walking down the middle of the road and then complaining when you get hit by a car.

[Captain VXR]

A woman doesn't cry out to be raped but I can understand where the 1 in 3 are coming from. If you go out on a Firday or Saturday night then you will see some girls wearing outfits that make your eyes water. They where the clothes to draw attention to themselves and it's a sad fact of life that it'll include unwanted attention. Add to the exhibishionism a few Lambrinas and double vodka cokes and it seems fairly obvious what could happen, I mean some women are so paralytic of a Saturday night that they are going to be easy prey for sick s. Okay so without the sick s none of it would happen but sometimes it's like walking down the middle of the road and then complaining when you get hit by a car.

You can accidentally run someone over but not rape someone...

[Easy Drifter]

My first question is what age are these students? Grade school, high school, university?
Next which school system are they from?
Are we talking religious schools?
Are we talking a large percentage of schools with many Muslim students?
These sort of generalities can always be skewered to fit the answer the pollster wants.
Students in the cities, especially the inner cities, quite likely have different attitudes to rural students.
Yes some women dress in a proctative manner but that doesn't ever excuse rape or sexual assault.
Rape also occurs everywhere including small towns and rural areas.

[MrJan]

You can accidentally run someone over but not rape someone...

Don't see how that's relevant, if someone walks down the middle of the road then they must do so knowing that the probability of them being run over is heightened. I'm not saying that it's the same with rape, just that I can see how it can be construed. After all if I was a rapist then it would make sense to prey on the ones who are wearing sweet FA and pissed out of their skulls.

[MrJan]

Yes some women dress in a proctative manner but that doesn't ever excuse rape or sexual assault.

I definately don't excuse it, but you have got to see how being wasted and wearing provactive clothes could increase the chances of it happening

[Easy Drifter]

True but then you have some of the demented ones who target the very sedately dressed ones just to see what 'is under there' or to see if that well dressed lady would be a hot lover. Sick yes.
When you consider rapists have assaulted women in their 70's and 80's you have to wonder.
Some just hate women, others go after prostitutes but all have mental issues to some extent.
Do not get me wrong. If they are convicted they do the time.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I definately don't excuse it, but you have got to see how being wasted and wearing provactive clothes could increase the chances of it happening

You can never blame a women for being raped but some women do put themselves at risk.

http://www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/lancasternews/Teenager-raped-in-Ryelands-Park.4983175.jp

POLICE are appealing for witnesses after a 16-year-old girl was subjected to a serious sexual assault in Ryelands Park.
The teenager was walking through the park to a friend's house between 4am and 4.15am on Saturday when the attack happened.

Is it really sensible though for a 16 year old to be alone in an urban park at night?

I've been condemned for suggesting this. :rolleyes:

[Tazio]

You can never blame a women for being raped but some women do put themselves at risk.

http://www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/lancasternews/Teenager-raped-in-Ryelands-Park.4983175.jp

POLICE are appealing for witnesses after a 16-year-old girl was subjected to a serious sexual assault in Ryelands Park.
The teenager was walking through the park to a friend's house between 4am and 4.15am on Saturday when the attack happened.

Is it really sensible though for a 16 year old to be alone in an urban park at night?

I've been condemned for suggesting this. :rolleyes: I don't think you should be condemed for questioning the prudentiality of her choice.
However, I don't think any hour day or night is "open season" for sick-f*cks!

[emporer_k]

There are parts of town I wouldn't go anywhere near at night, however I wouldn't say going there makes anyone partially responsible for any ill that comes to them there.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

There are parts of town I wouldn't go anywhere near at night, however I wouldn't say going there makes anyone partially responsible for any ill that comes to them there.

Of course. It doesn't make them partially responsible. But did they put themselves at risk by going to certain places?

[BDunnell]

True but then you have some of the demented ones who target the very sedately dressed ones just to see what 'is under there' or to see if that well dressed lady would be a hot lover. Sick yes.
When you consider rapists have assaulted women in their 70's and 80's you have to wonder.
Some just hate women, others go after prostitutes but all have mental issues to some extent.
Do not get me wrong. If they are convicted they do the time.

I agree with you. It is a complex mental issue, involving various factors in each individual case.

[MrJan]

I agree with you. It is a complex mental issue, involving various factors in each individual case.

In some cases yes but then in others it may just be a case of the overly drunk and horny idiot. People have to remember that rape isn't always about sick weirdos hiding in park bushes who can only get their rocks by being agressive, sometimes it's just a drunk male 'friend' who doesn't understand the word 'no'.

[BDunnell]

Of course. It doesn't make them partially responsible. But did they put themselves at risk by going to certain places?

Very probably, just as we may all do.

One problem here is that it's such an emotive word, and quite rightly too. I don't know if you saw this story about ex-football manager Alan Pardew using the word 'rape' in a recent BBC commentary — http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7946964.stm ? Now, I think it's a rather ridiculous word to use in that context, and ought not to be the first to come to mind. But there was no such outcry when Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary said that the airport operator BAA's charging policy at Stansted made them 'rapists' — I think there should have been, largely because he's such a prat — and we still refer to the 'rape of Carthage', for instance, so there are clearly contexts in which it isn't deemed so emotive. I suspect that Alan Pardew's remark was deemed less appropriate because of the number of suspected rape cases involving footballers in recent times.

[BDunnell]

In some cases yes but then in others it may just be a case of the overly drunk and horny idiot. People have to remember that rape isn't always about sick weirdos hiding in park bushes who can only get their rocks by being agressive, sometimes it's just a drunk male 'friend' who doesn't understand the word 'no'.

Those are the individual factors in those cases, then. What I'm saying is that there isn't a 'one size fits all' set of circumstances. It may be that some people do, for whatever reason, get themselves more easily into situations in which they are more susceptible to rape than others. Others don't but it still happens to them.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Those are the individual factors in those cases, then. What I'm saying is that there isn't a 'one size fits all' set of circumstances. It may be that some people do, for whatever reason, get themselves more easily into situations in which they are more susceptible to rape than others. Others don't but it still happens to them.

I guess I understand what you are getting at here Ben.

My view is a woman techinically should be able to wear what she wants and us men CANNOT touch her if she chooses to say no. That said, you dress the part, don't complain if you get offers that may not accept that no from morons that feel any woman will say yes to them.

I find rape an abborrent and criminal and there is no reason for it but I can understand how this 1 and 3 figure could be obtained. As Jon has said, some women really flirt with disaster. As for the 16 year old in the park at night, she has to be dumber than a bag of hammers and her parents obviously didn't get it into her head that the world is dangerous.....Still feel bad for the girl..no one deserves THAT.

[MrJan]

Those are the individual factors in those cases, then. What I'm saying is that there isn't a 'one size fits all' set of circumstances. It may be that some people do, for whatever reason, get themselves more easily into situations in which they are more susceptible to rape than others. Others don't but it still happens to them.

As always most instances are different, but it's certainly possible to see why some people think that certain women don't help themselves.

In response to the Pardew comment I think that it could be a case of being used to using a word in an environment where it doesn't carry such negative connotations or impact. For example in the building industry the word c**t is used to such an extent that you begin to become desensitised to it (I know that when I was at Uni I found the word repulsive, but after 3 years around builders who use the word daily I have a different opinion). There's no reasoning behind it and it should be unacceptable but unfortunately it isn't.

Personally I don't find Mr Pardew's comments that bad (although I do think he's a c**t ;) ) because of the context in which it was used. IN retrospect though it seems fairly obvioust that people could be offended :)

[cosmicpanda]

You can never blame a women for being raped but some women do put themselves at risk.

I agree.

[F1boat]

I agree with the general consensus here. People who rape women are perverts, sick, sick. But the provocative clothes increase the danger and at my opinion should be put only at home, when the girl is with her real friend. I am terribly old-fashioned about such things.

[Mark]

As for the 16 year old in the park at night, she has to be dumber than a bag of hammers and her parents obviously didn't get it into her head that the world is dangerous.....Still feel bad for the girl..no one deserves THAT.

The girl that gets statched from a park at night by a stranger I believe is very much the minority of rape cases. I believe the majority are where the woman knew their attacker, or they wished to go so far but no further with someone, who then wouldn't take no for an answer.

Those cases are especially tricky to prove guilt, but at the same time there have been many cases where men have been falsely accused and I find it rather worrying that there is becoming an ephasis on assuming guilt.

[555-04Q2]

http://www.national-student.co.uk/pa...ng_for_it.html

Now this is a debate from another forum and I would like to make clear that I don't think a women can be 'partly' responsible for being raped. All the responsibility is with the sick people who commit the crimes.

But I've been called 'facetious' for suggesting that it isn't sensible for women to walk through urban parks late at night.

I'm staggered :s

There is some truth to this matter. How many times do young girls/woman get drunk, chat up a guy at a pub/club, sleep with the guy and then wake up next to the guy in the morning and claim they are raped :?: Thousands every weekend would be my guess.

A lot of woman are responsible for some "rape" cases.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

There is some truth to this matter. How many times do young girls/woman get drunk, chat up a guy at a pub/club, sleep with the guy and then wake up next to the guy in the morning and claim they are raped :?: Thousands every weekend would be my guess.

A lot of woman are responsible for some "rape" cases.

That probably does happen, but the people who do that are just harming the credibility of the real victims of rape. :(

[BDunnell]

I agree with the general consensus here. People who rape women are perverts, sick, sick. But the provocative clothes increase the danger and at my opinion should be put only at home, when the girl is with her real friend. I am terribly old-fashioned about such things.

I am sure that the provocative clothes are only part of the way in which some people end up in situations of increased risk to themselves.

[BeansBeansBeans]

If you leave your car unlocked then someone will steal your stero. The criminal is 100% blame, but you should've taken steps to protect yourself.

[Mark in Oshawa]

There is some truth to this matter. How many times do young girls/woman get drunk, chat up a guy at a pub/club, sleep with the guy and then wake up next to the guy in the morning and claim they are raped :?: Thousands every weekend would be my guess.

A lot of woman are responsible for some "rape" cases.

Yup, but if a woman says no in her drunken state at some point and the guy doesn't hear it, the law often will take her side.

Women have to be aware and have to take precautions. In a perfect world they wouldn't, but this world is so far from perfect it isn't funny.

[Hazell B]

Is it really sensible though for a 16 year old to be alone in an urban park at night?

I've been condemned for suggesting this. :rolleyes:

So have I in the past, mainly by a man who hits his girlfriends and one of his sorry followers though. It was on this forum as it happens ;)

Anyway, my friend's daughter was raped. She did wear beggar all and go out drinking very young, but the man who raped her had never spoken to her and broke into her home while she was alone one night. He planned it for weeks and stalked her without anyone knowing. He attempted getting rid of all forensic evidence and used a knife.

He's a case of it being 100% his fault.

However, many rapes are a tiny bit (I stress TINY) the woman's own doing. She's either too drunk/drugged/young to defend herself whilst walking alone at night or she's married to the rapist.

For the price of a taxi or the sake of a phone call to the police, these women would be a whole lot safer. It's their choice to wander the streets at night, not anybody elses.
Doesn't stop the men being lowlife pieces of crap who deserve to die nastily, mind you.

The women who walk alone are the ones we all think of as being to blame in some small part, but we forget the ones who're alone at home, behind locked doors, who are attacked. They are in no way to blame.

[donKey jote]

a man who hits his girlfriends and one of his sorry followers though. It was on this forum as it happens ;)

oooh gossip alert, allegedly :p : ... go on, name and shame I say :D

[slinkster]

As much as I find this study disturbing, I wasn't suprised by it either. I have a few friends who have been raped. I think no matter what the situation, the woman feels an element of guilt somehow- even when that is completely misplaced. However, for outsiders to look in on the situation and make this sort of a wild judgment, completely ignoring other elements and factors - I find a worrying state of affairs. It's a hard thing to get through court too.

As a woman I don't feel safe out alone, and although I SHOULD be able to walk home late at night or wear whatever the hell I want safe in the knowledge some psycho won't take this as an invite to rape me, I do take some responsibility to look out for myself. I certainly would NOT want my daughter to be out late, alone at 16. Not at all.

[ShiftingGears]

There is some truth to this matter. How many times do young girls/woman get drunk, chat up a guy at a pub/club, sleep with the guy and then wake up next to the guy in the morning and claim they are raped :?: Thousands every weekend would be my guess.


I agree.

[Drew]

If you leave your car unlocked then someone will steal your stero. The criminal is 100% blame, but you should've taken steps to protect yourself.

:up: I completely agree

[steve_spackman]

There is NO excuse for a women to be raped, no matter what she is wearing or where she maybe at that time..

[Roamy]

well I agree rape is rape but also there are varying degrees like 1st degree when she is innocently walking through the park. About 10th degree when you are getting a private nude pole dance after a bottle of Bombay Saffire

so punishment should be in line with the degree
1 = death
10 = you have to do rosanne barr

[Daniel]

If you leave your car unlocked then someone will steal your stero. The criminal is 100% blame, but you should've taken steps to protect yourself.

Agreed. Of course there is still no excuse for it but still people do have to take responsibility for the positions they put themselves in.

[Garry Walker]

I wonder how many of those who answered were muslim. I am pretty sure quite many.

Whilst nothing excuses rape and I strongly support DP for rapists, a lot of women need to rethink how they behave and how drunk they get. Whenever I am at the city at late hours, you see so many women completely drunk, barely able to stand up. Of course they are easy targets then.

[Zico]

A girl I was once close to, even questioned her own state of mind after confessing to me that she fantasized about being raped, get your head round that one if you can... I couldnt... and I still dont know what to make of it really.. wonder what a shrink would say about that.

[Tazio]

A girl I was once close to, even questioned her own state of mind after confessing to me that she fantasized about being raped, get your head round that one if you can... I couldnt... and I still dont know what to make of it really.. wonder what a shrink would say about that Have her talk to women that have been raped with 2x4's and other such paraphernalia.
Then she can explain how she meant her fantasy involved only a "humane" rapist :confused:

[Zico]

Have her talk to women that have been raped with 2x4's and other such paraphernalia.
Then she can explain how she meant her fantasy involved only a "humane" rapist :confused:

Yep.. my interpretation of her statement is that she wanted rough sex with a complete stranger. To add a nother twist to it.. I lost the plot a bit.. I'd actually, lets just say threatened a guy who she claimed had indecently assaulted her a year or so before that. Sometimes you get caught up in situations and do/say things you later regret. I have very strong doubts whether this actually ever happened and feel quite bad about it. Needless to say, I've moved on since then.. narrow escape? I think, Sick puppy.

[Tazio]

Yep.. my interpretation of her statement is that she wanted rough sex with a complete stranger. To add a nother twist to it.. I lost the plot a bit.. I'd actually, lets just say threatened a guy who she claimed had indecently assaulted her a year or so before that. Sometimes you get caught up in situations and do/say things you later regret. I have very strong doubts whether this actually ever happened and feel quite bad about it. Needless to say, I've moved on since then.. narrow escape? I think, Sick puppy. Bingo!

[Daniel]

Yep.. my interpretation of her statement is that she wanted rough sex with a complete stranger. To add a nother twist to it.. I lost the plot a bit.. I'd actually, lets just say threatened a guy who she claimed had indecently assaulted her a year or so before that. Sometimes you get caught up in situations and do/say things you later regret. I have very strong doubts whether this actually ever happened and feel quite bad about it. Needless to say, I've moved on since then.. narrow escape? I think, Sick puppy.
I concur with Tazio.....

[jso1985]

There is some truth to this matter. How many times do young girls/woman get drunk, chat up a guy at a pub/club, sleep with the guy and then wake up next to the guy in the morning and claim they are raped :?: Thousands every weekend would be my guess.

A lot of woman are responsible for some "rape" cases.

agree in those cases they're pretty much responsible and I even think the guy didn't even committed a crime as I don't think that's rape.

while on the other cases mentioned here(the park situation foe example) of "true" rape, the woman is not at blame at all and the sick who did that should be put in jail a very long time

[Easy Drifter]

While the Surpreme Court of Canda has ruled (rightly so) the No means No I do wonder about the 'Groupies' who willingly go to a hotel room with a guy (especially a jock or rock star) they have just met and then cry rape.

[Zico]

We often see newspaper reports of rich football stars accused of rape.. then hear nothing more of it, difficult to prove that it wasn't consensual or for more unsavoury reasons? I'd put my money on the latter for a massive majority of the cases... if my bad experience with that bunny boiler is anything to go by.

[markabilly]

of course, women are responsible for getting themselves raped by guys who want to dominant and so forth members of the opposite sex
if they were not female, those guys would never have attacked them

People who leave their keys in their car are responsible for it being stolen


people who do not leave their keys in the car but it gets stolen anyway, are responsible because after all, they bought the car. If they did not want it stolen, they never should have bought it....

Somebody gets killed, well if he had not been living, nobody would have killed him

Classic logic and the road where the "oh let us feel sorry for the criminal" is leading us.......it ain't his fault that some thoughtless and worthless victim made themselves vunerable. He only did what was natural.....

yeah sometimes there are those false outcries, but geeaass, whatever. some of you been drinking too too much kool aid...bettter add that cynanide sweetner back in

[Hazell B]

.......it ain't his fault that some thoughtless and worthless victim made themselves vunerable. He only did what was natural.....


Not one single person here has said anything even slightly similar to that, and I'm sure you know that yourself.

[ioan]

33% of the young ones being stupid. It could be better but it could be worse too.

[markabilly]

Not one single person here has said anything even slightly similar to that, and I'm sure you know that yourself.


Oh really, be thou brit, it appears that english may not be your language....
just a few, and that is where the cry baby logic of feel sorry for the poor crook being taken advantage of ....

I wonder how many of those who answered were muslim. I am pretty sure quite many.

Whilst nothing excuses rape and I strongly support DP for rapists, a lot of women need to rethink how they behave and how drunk they get. Whenever I am at the city at late hours, you see so many women completely drunk, barely able to stand up. Of course they are easy targets then.


A girl I was once close to, even questioned her own state of mind after confessing to me that she fantasized about being raped, get your head round that one if you can... I couldnt... and I still dont know what to make of it really.. wonder what a shrink would say about that.


Agreed. Of course there is still no excuse for it but still people do have to take responsibility for the positions they put themselves in.

[markabilly]

33% of the young ones being stupid. It could be better but it could be worse too.
Well that is the poll....on this thread I think the number is about 66% or higher being the stupid in this thread

follow their logic, there ought to be a law where the victim who permits the crime to occur ought to be the one who goes to jail, since in the absence of the victim or the victim "asking" for it, the criminal never would have done it...

[Roamy]

Yep.. my interpretation of her statement is that she wanted rough sex with a complete stranger. To add a nother twist to it.. I lost the plot a bit.. I'd actually, lets just say threatened a guy who she claimed had indecently assaulted her a year or so before that. Sometimes you get caught up in situations and do/say things you later regret. I have very strong doubts whether this actually ever happened and feel quite bad about it. Needless to say, I've moved on since then.. narrow escape? I think, Sick puppy.

yea some girl told me one time she wanted rough sex. she said give me 9 inches and make me hurt. - so I punched her in the face and did her twice!!

[markabilly]

yea some girl told me one time she wanted rough sex. she said give me 9 inches and make me hurt. - so I punched her in the face and did her twice!!
Are you sure your math is correct? I was thinking three times (as in three inches times 3) but who is really counting when it comes to true love :love:

There was only once when a girl asked for some rough sex. Okay I said with a smile that quickly vanished :eek: By the time it was over, she had broke my nose, one rib and a certain body part that has never stood up straight since.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

of course, women are responsible for getting themselves raped by guys who want to dominant and so forth members of the opposite sex
if they were not female, those guys would never have attacked them

People who leave their keys in their car are responsible for it being stolen


people who do not leave their keys in the car but it gets stolen anyway, are responsible because after all, they bought the car. If they did not want it stolen, they never should have bought it....

Somebody gets killed, well if he had not been living, nobody would have killed him

Classic logic and the road where the "oh let us feel sorry for the criminal" is leading us.......it ain't his fault that some thoughtless and worthless victim made themselves vunerable. He only did what was natural.....

yeah sometimes there are those false outcries, but geeaass, whatever. some of you been drinking too too much kool aid...bettter add that cynanide sweetner back in

I never feel sorry for the convicted criminal. I think we would have less crime if the punishment fit the crime but THAT is another story.

That said, the women of this modern world we live in have to be aware of how the image they project will attract the wrong sort of attention and that walking in certain areas will not be a good idea at night.

This is no different than dressing for the weather if you are going for a hike or making sure you have the right provisions with you. It isn't about blame, this is about being prepared and avoiding issues that will make your life worse. A woman walking in a bad neighbourhood at 2am isn't making a good judgement call. It wouldn't make her rape any less criminal but avoiding the situation will make it less likely right?

[ozrevhead]

You can never blame a women for being raped but some women do put themselves at risk.

http://www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/lancasternews/Teenager-raped-in-Ryelands-Park.4983175.jp

POLICE are appealing for witnesses after a 16-year-old girl was subjected to a serious sexual assault in Ryelands Park.
The teenager was walking through the park to a friend's house between 4am and 4.15am on Saturday when the attack happened.

Is it really sensible though for a 16 year old to be alone in an urban park at night?

I've been condemned for suggesting this. :rolleyes:
she shouldnt of been there but no does mean no - rape is rape and its a study and mentaltiy that mortals should find sickening

I dont give a flying you know what about the dress they wear or the time of day your out NO ONE deserves to be raped PERIOD no ifs or buts.

God there are some sickos in this world (not you Jon Brow)

[ozrevhead]

of course, women are responsible for getting themselves raped by guys who want to dominant and so forth members of the opposite sex
if they were not female, those guys would never have attacked them

People who leave their keys in their car are responsible for it being stolen


people who do not leave their keys in the car but it gets stolen anyway, are responsible because after all, they bought the car. If they did not want it stolen, they never should have bought it....

Somebody gets killed, well if he had not been living, nobody would have killed him

Classic logic and the road where the "oh let us feel sorry for the criminal" is leading us.......it ain't his fault that some thoughtless and worthless victim made themselves vunerable. He only did what was natural.....

yeah sometimes there are those false outcries, but geeaass, whatever. some of you been drinking too too much kool aid...bettter add that cynanide sweetner back in

Agreed

using how people dress and where they go justification and excuse for rape is sickining

[Mark in Oshawa]

Agreed

using how people dress and where they go justification and excuse for rape is sickining


It is sickening. Still doesn't change the fact that sicko's do it. It is like having the right of way when cross the road jaywalking and you get hit by a car. You had the right of way, but you are still dead. If you walked across with the lights or found another way over or under the road, you still are safer.

There is no justification for Rape, but it never changes the reality of the situation that some women put themselves in more enticing scenarios for rapists than others. I think that is all that what the poll was indicating. I would never believe 33% of the population of the UK would think rape is ever justified.

[markabilly]

Agreed

using how people dress and where they go justification and excuse for rape is sickining


Amen. As far as I am concerned any woman any time, should be able able to walk where she pleases, in any state of dress, or as naked as a jaybird, in complete safety. Period.

The fact that she can not as a practical reality because we have failed to clean up and completely eradicate the criminal scum, because we are too busy coddling criminals and blaming either the victim or some third party, is a sad state of affairs


It is sickening. Still doesn't change the fact that sicko's do it. It is like having the right of way when cross the road jaywalking and you get hit by a car. You had the right of way, but you are still dead. If you walked across with the lights or found another way over or under the road, you still are safer.

There is no justification for Rape, but it never changes the reality of the situation that some women put themselves in more enticing scenarios for rapists than others. I think that is all that what the poll was indicating. I would never believe 33% of the population of the UK would think rape is ever justified.

So therefore they are at least partially responsible , reveals the fundamental flaw in your argument.
Might be a good argument, BUT
getting raped is not an accident. It is an intentional act with malice a forethought.

[Malbec]

I wonder how many of those who answered were muslim. I am pretty sure quite many.

Its always easy to blame the immigrant isn't it.

Sadly there was another study with the subjects chosen to represent the British demographic, ie mainly white with a good distribution across the age groups. 1 in 7 thought women were partially to blame for being raped, with more people over 50 and also under 20 agreeing with that point of view. Surprisingly, even more people thought it was acceptable to hit a girlfriend or partner.

Given that the vast majority of people in this country describe themselves as white Christians the study would have had to have taken place in a town like Bradford for Muslims to have skewed the results.

[Hazell B]

So therefore they are at least partially responsible , reveals the fundamental flaw in your argument.
Might be a good argument, BUT
getting raped is not an accident. It is an intentional act with malice a forethought.


And, here in the real world, YOUR post has just revealed the fundamental flaw in your argument.

Getting raped is never an accident, but then again neither is wandering about in the dark late at night drunk enough to be raped.

Look, we have to all live in a real world. There are bad guys out there in our real world. It makes sense to protect yourself from them rather than say "All women deserve the right to do what they want when they want". No police force can lock rapists away until they've raped, so women HAVE to take care of themselves.

Of course women deserve the right to walk safe in the streets, but then again all men deserve the right to leave their car on the drive unlocked, keys in, while they wash it ..... but I doubt many are stupid enough to do that!

In the real world, women have to take responsibility for their safety. Nobody else can, after all.

[Drew]

Markability (I've assumed you're american, sorry if you're not!) would you seriously expect to be able to walk through the streets of Compton late at night and expect NOT to be robbed, beaten up, threatened or even raped?!

People everywhere SHOULD be able to walk through the streets anywhere at anytime of day wearing whatever they want. But unfortunetely this just can't happen in the real world and you should always take measures to protect yourself and your stuff. Like my mum told me as a kid "it's not that I don't trust you, it's because I don't trust everybody else" :)

[Tazio]

would you seriously expect to be able to walk through the streets of Compton late at night and expect NOT to be robbed, beaten up, threatened or even raped?!

I'ts not as bad as you make it out.
I'd walk through Compton at night! Have you ever been there?
It's not that bad, and I'm a white Southern Californian! (Just stay away during race riots)
Now Hawaiian Gardens that's a different story Those Asian gangs are freakin' crazy :eek: ,

[Hazell B]

There you go - you stay away during race riots.
Just like women should stay away from certain areas after dark.
Exact same thing, perfectly pointed out :up:

[markabilly]

There you go - you stay away during race riots.
Just like women should stay away from certain areas after dark.
Exact same thing, perfectly pointed out :up:
so if I can catch you out in the wrong part of town, at the wrong hour, after dark, you would consider yourself fair game??????

And thereby consented, either expressly or by implication, to a rape (robbery murder or whatever)?

And therefore, brought it down upon yourself???

Methinks that is not true, not at all....

[markabilly]

Markability (I've assumed you're american, sorry if you're not!) would you seriously expect to be able to walk through the streets of Compton late at night and expect NOT to be robbed, beaten up, threatened or even raped?!

People everywhere SHOULD be able to walk through the streets anywhere at anytime of day wearing whatever they want. But unfortunetely this just can't happen in the real world and you should always take measures to protect yourself and your stuff. Like my mum told me as a kid "it's not that I don't trust you, it's because I don't trust everybody else" :)


yes I do expect it and indeed, demand it.
Execute a few who want to act otherwise in terms of an absence of respect, and then the respect will return

[BDunnell]

yes I do expect it and indeed, demand it.
Execute a few who want to act otherwise in terms of an absence of respect, and then the respect will return

There is absolutely no evidence that this has any effect on improving behaviour overall, and there have probably always been areas of large cities in which it's not especially sensible to walk alone after dark, so this isn't a new phenomenon. I refuse to believe that society today is any more 'sick' or 'broken' than it's ever been.

[BDunnell]

so if I can catch you out in the wrong part of town, at the wrong hour, after dark, you would consider yourself fair game??????

And thereby consented, either expressly or by implication, to a rape (robbery murder or whatever)?

And therefore, brought it down upon yourself???

Methinks that is not true, not at all....

But neither is that what Hazell was saying, quite clearly. One would take precautions to ensure that one wasn't putting oneself in that position if one wasn't comfortable with it. And there is no 'fair game' about it. Nobody should be considered 'fair game'.

[markabilly]

But neither is that what Hazell was saying, quite clearly. One would take precautions to ensure that one wasn't putting oneself in that position if one wasn't comfortable with it. And there is no 'fair game' about it. Nobody should be considered 'fair game'.
But that is what you put yourself into...when you walk along after dark...I would not expect you to understand, because the opposite approach would require effective and total removal of criminal scum to where they are all flushed down the toilet, :arrows: so there is safety :love:

But, OOOH oh me, that would be too mean to those poor misguided people :bigcry:

[BDunnell]

But that is what you put yourself into...when you walk along after dark...

So you are saying that everybody who walks along after dark is putting themselves in danger?

[Malbec]

But that is what you put yourself into...when you walk along after dark...I would not expect you to understand, because the opposite approach would require effective and total removal of criminal scum to where they are all flushed down the toilet, :arrows: so there is safety :love:

But, OOOH oh me, that would be too mean to those poor misguided people :bigcry:

mark, why reduce an issue like rape to simple black and white.

Rape is sex without consent. That instantly turns it into a highly complex issue because people can either openly refuse sex yet have it forced on them or put themselves in a situation where they cannot weigh up things to give properly considered consent, ie by drinking heavily or taking drugs. There's a whole spectrum involved here.

Rapists who end up in court are not all monsters, there are men going through court who thought the woman was up for it right up until the word rape was mentioned.

It is also not wrong to suggest that some women do indeed put themselves at risk through their behaviour and the places they end up in. That is not the same as being at fault if they are raped. If I choose to go on holiday to SE Afghanistan I am putting myself at risk of being kidnapped and executed, but that does not lessen the burden of guilt on the terrorists who would be responsible.

[Jag_Warrior]

Rape is sex without consent. That instantly turns it into a highly complex issue because people can either openly refuse sex yet have it forced on them or put themselves in a situation where they cannot weigh up things to give properly considered consent, ie by drinking heavily or taking drugs. There's a whole spectrum involved here.

Rapists who end up in court are not all monsters, there are men going through court who thought the woman was up for it right up until the word rape was mentioned.

It is also not wrong to suggest that some women do indeed put themselves at risk through their behaviour and the places they end up in. That is not the same as being at fault if they are raped. If I choose to go on holiday to SE Afghanistan I am putting myself at risk of being kidnapped and executed, but that does not lessen the burden of guilt on the terrorists who would be responsible.

^^^+1^^^ :up:

Could not have said it better.

[markabilly]

mark, why reduce an issue like rape to simple black and white.



Rapists who end up in court are not all monsters....


. If I choose to go on holiday to SE Afghanistan I am putting myself at risk of being kidnapped and executed, but that does not lessen the burden of guilt on the terrorists who would be responsible.

??
Rapists who end up in court are not all monsters?
I thought all rapists were criminals, but now that I think about it, they are also terrorists and monsters

If I choose to go on holiday to SE Afghanistan I am putting myself at risk of being kidnapped and executed, but that does not lessen the burden of guilt on the terrorists who would be responsible
flush all them down the toilet as well...and it would be very safe.

I find Saudia Arabia to be a very safe country to walk around, due to their practicise of chopping off criminal heads...

[BDunnell]

markabilly, I don't think your opinions on this subject bear much scrutiny.

[markabilly]

markabilly, I don't think your opinions on this subject bear much scrutiny.
If they did, I would have to charge you more money, but as from you, I got what I paid for and I just returned the favor.
Weren't done it for nobody else,

let me see, you ran out of the other thread, wonder what I can do to run you back over there

[Malbec]

I thought all rapists were criminals, but now that I think about it, they are also terrorists and monsters

Then I hope for your sake some girl you meet drunk at a bar doesn't turn to you in the morning and accuse you of rape.

I admire your misplaced 'chivalry' but your inability to realise that rape is not a black and white matter means that any form of discussion with you on the topic is clearly not possible. Read my first paragraph that you forgot to quote again. Consent is the issue here, and that is what makes the topic so complex.

[Jag_Warrior]

I am sure that Dylan H meant "alleged" rapist. But even in the case where one is convicted, sometimes there are questions:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/11/60minutes/main4859708.shtml

It's odd that he forgave her and that these two eventually became friends. This story, and the surrounding circumstances and coincidences, likely represents the exception, not the rule. But still, this is not Battlestar Galactica, where we have Cylon Detectors and Rapist Detectors on our iPhones. Until the crime is committed, there is no way to know who is or will be a rapist... or any other sort of criminal. And until the person is convicted, they are not going to be punished, nor should they be.

Sure, it would be nice to live in a world where we could leave our doors unlocked and walk around without fear of being harmed by our fellow humans. But that has never been the case. It wasn't true 10,000 years ago and it's not true now. Neither we, as individuals, nor society in general can control the actions of each member of the society. The best one can do is try to live safely without being paranoid. But even that doesn't work sometimes.

It's fine to be an idealist and dream of a time when all people will be respectful and kind... and dogs don't bite. But me, I'm a realist. I don't think that everybody is out to get me, but I know that somebody is. If someone gets over on me, it's not necessarily my fault. But I'm sure as hell not going to do things that make it easy for them. That's being stupid. That applies to males and females... and any sort of crime.

[markabilly]

Then I hope for your sake some girl you meet drunk at a bar doesn't turn to you in the morning and accuse you of rape.

.


No, they claim they always want more, more, more. Then I tell them no, you had more than most, they start crying. Yet to have one even mention the r word

[BDunnell]

If they did, I would have to charge you more money, but as from you, I got what I paid for and I just returned the favor.
Weren't done it for nobody else,

I genuinely have no idea what any of that means.

[Roamy]

I understand you can safely walk around any part of Singapore day or night - why is that possible??

[markabilly]

I genuinely have no idea what any of that means.
Wenn ja, würde ich Ihnen mehr Geld, aber wie von Ihnen, ich, was ich bezahlt, und ich gerade die Gunst.
Wurden nicht gemacht für die sonst niemand,


jetzt glücklich?

[Drew]

I find Saudia Arabia to be a very safe country to walk around, due to their practicise of chopping off criminal heads...

That's true, i'm pretty sure there are no women walking around drunk in Saudi Arabia!

Let's just hope you don't get wrongly accused and then if you do, that you get a fair trial ;)

[donKey jote]

Wenn ja, würde ich Ihnen mehr Geld, aber wie von Ihnen, ich, was ich bezahlt, und ich gerade die Gunst.
Wurden nicht gemacht für die sonst niemand,


jetzt glücklich?

your booblefish is crap :laugh:

[markabilly]

your booblefish is crap :laugh:
Only if you take it and try to translate it through bablefish, you old turkey buzzard,

[Mark in Oshawa]

It seems that there are two schools of thought. The old "the world if full of grey areas" school and the "punish the s and they wont do it again" idea.

I think Markabilly and Fousto are quite right in saying places where rape convictions mean HEAVY penalties are quite safe. Also very much places you wouldn't want to be falsly convicted or have a bad night at a bar. Not really "Free" socieities either.

I agree Mark, you should be able to walk anywhere and be safe, whether you be male or female. IN a perfect world, no one would get mugged, raped or robbed. The rest of us tho live in that imperfect world and I think there has to some judgement given in all criminal cases, and in the case of rape especially so. Date rape and just strangers abducting and abusing some woman walking through a park should be separated to an extent too. Date rape is often a "he said, she said" thing and isn't the same thing at all as the 16 year old wandering though a park at 4am. THAT was stupidity on her part, but never justified on the accused's part.

Date rape? Man.....you meet the wrong woman some night as a single guy and both of you are out of it and she has issues...and you too could be on the stand. Wouldn't want to be in Saudi Arabia or Singapore when THAT happens would ya?

[markabilly]

Date rape? Man.....you meet the wrong woman some night as a single guy and both of you are out of it and she has issues...and you too could be on the stand. Wouldn't want to be in Saudi Arabia or Singapore when THAT happens would ya?
There seems to a third school of thought--just let the little head do the thinking for the big head and that should be okay--

speaking of being responsible, if you wern't walkin down the wrong part of town at 4 am, you would not be getting raped(grey area)

And to add to that grey area:
If you were not getting all drunked up, and hanging out with the wrong kind of woman, you would not be worried about her hollering rape in the morning, so.......................as my grandpa, say, be careful what you ask for, you might get it

[Zico]

and that is where the cry baby logic of feel sorry for the poor crook being taken advantage of ....

Mark, maybe Im a bit thick or simply dont understand your Americanisms or something but I really have no idea what you are getting at... and to quote my post in the context that I was somehow excusing rape is just simply ridiculous... Im sure no-one else took it that way, even if you did.

[markabilly]

Mark, Im sure no-one else took it that way, even if you did.
Not my fault, english is my tenth language, but hey after reading your post again, gots to wonder why be hanging out with that kinda girl?
To apply the logic of many here, it was your fault for not picking on girls who were more sober and honest about what they wanted

But as that is not my school of thought, a false cry of rape deserves the same punishment that one would get for conviction of rape, as it says in the good book somewhere, for such false outcry is truly meritous of punishment of a serve and lasting nature--

jetzt glücklich?

[Zico]

Not my fault, english is my tenth language, but hey after reading your post again, gots to wonder why be hanging out with that kinda girl?
To apply the logic of many here, it was your fault for not picking on girls who were more sober and honest about what they wanted.[/LEFT]

This girl was from a respectable family, attended the same church that I was forced to do whilst living with my parents at that time.. wasn't some kind of 'party' girl that you seem to envisage. Maybe I am not the greatest judge of character but she didnt wear a sign round her neck stating that she had issues of any kind.
When she was younger, she had suffered from Chrones disease, her medication included steroids which made her quite fat for a few years between the ages of 12 to 15 iirc. How was I to know that this was potentially what affected her psychologicaly to turn out to be a twisted, lying attention seeker? That incident was my wake-up call to what she was really all about and I paid attention to it. No doubt you'd have looked her up and down just the once and have had her sectioned?

So many assumptions..

[Drew]

A woman has been jailed for 20 months over a false allegation of rape.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/northamptonshire/7972627.stm

[Hazell B]

so if I can catch you out in the wrong part of town, at the wrong hour, after dark, you would consider yourself fair game??????

And thereby consented, either expressly or by implication, to a rape (robbery murder or whatever)?

And therefore, brought it down upon yourself???

Methinks that is not true, not at all....

Me thinks you're totally inventing things I've said because you're in the mood for a fight.

Why bother? You're just making yourself look silly ;)

As for women always wanting more, more, more from you ..... will I ever meet a man who doesn't claim that? Certainly not one who's unmarried :laugh:

[Bezza]

Getting drunk, wearing provocative clothing and acting like a slut in a nightclub doesn't help matters - but a rapist is a rapist and he knows what he is doing. Woman can lessen the chance of themselves being the target, but to blame them for it is going to ridiculous extremes!

[Rudy Tamasz]

A rapist is a rapist, when you clearly define what a rapist is. At my uni a girl accused a guy of raping her. She had it that on that night he penetrated her with her consent but second time she gave no consent because she passed out totally drunk. Better yet, she came out with her accusations some two years later when she finally made up her mind and decided second time was a rape. The guy wasn't legally prosecuted but he got a huge dark spot on his reputation forever. Was he a rapist if her story was true?

[Mark]

A rapist is a rapist, when you clearly define what a rapist is. At my uni a girl accused a guy of raping her. She had it that on that night he penetrated her with her consent but second time she gave no consent because she passed out totally drunk. Better yet, she came out with her accusations some two years later when she finally made up her mind and decided second time was a rape. The guy wasn't legally prosecuted but he got a huge dark spot on his reputation forever. Was he a rapist if her story was true?

That's always a difficult one. Recently in the UK a judge ruled that "Drunken consent is still consent". But if she was completely passed out, that was a different story.

[Hazell B]

Passed out, she couldn't give consent. However, if I were the judge I'd call it assault rather than rape.

Plus, if he's turned on by a drunk who's passed out, he's one sick puppy!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Passed out, she couldn't give consent. However, if I were the judge I'd call it assault rather than rape.

Plus, if he's turned on by a drunk who's passed out, he's one sick puppy!

'Puppy' suggests that he was cute though :p

[markabilly]

Passed out, she couldn't give consent. However, if I were the judge I'd call it assault rather than rape.

Plus, if he's turned on by a drunk who's passed out, he's one sick puppy!

I think I understand English logic now: :idea:

If they are awake and alert but say no, it is rape (unless they put themselves in the position of asking for it by walking down the wrong street at the wrong time of night)

But if they be passed out or similarly comatose, it is merely assault but in any event he is not criminal scum to be flushed down the toilet to never do it again, he is to be labelled a sick puppy and turned back loose until he grows into a real dog.....

And to think, England once ruled the world...... :dozey:

[Hazell B]

I think I understand English logic now: :idea:

If they are awake and alert but say no, it is rape ......


No, you understand nothing. Nor will you even try to read and think beforee commenting :rolleyes:

If she'd consented while drunk but awake, it's not rape is it? The fact that she'd passed out and he'd either carried on or started again makes it assault rather than rape ;)

I'm a woman who worked in pubs for 18 years, walking home alone over some docks each night. As such I learned a lot and have met plenty of women who've made false claims (to their friends, not the police) and also know a woman who was properly and horribly raped. There's always a difference between the two. The man who raped my friend did his time then got released against psyc advice and killed his next victim only 16 weeks later. He should be dead in my opinion.