Enough is enough, even to some Israelis

[Eki]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm


Israel troops admit Gaza abuses

An Israeli military college has printed damning soldiers' accounts of the killing of civilians and vandalism during recent operations in Gaza.
One account tells of a sniper killing a mother and children at close range whom troops had told to leave their home.
Another speaker at the seminar described what he saw as the "cold blooded murder" of a Palestinian woman.
The army has defended its conduct during the Gaza offensive but said it would investigate the testimonies.
The Israeli army has said it will investigate the soldiers' accounts.
The testimonies were published by the military academy at Oranim College. Graduates of the academy, who had served in Gaza, were speaking to new recruits at a seminar.

"[The testimonies] conveyed an atmosphere in which one feels entitled to use unrestricted force against Palestinians," academy director Dany Zamir told public radio.
Heavy civilian casualties during the three-week operation which ended in the blockaded coastal strip on 18 January provoked an international outcry.
Correspondents say the testimonies undermine Israel's claims that troops took care to protect non-combatants and accusations that Hamas militants were responsible for putting civilians into harm's way.

'Less important'

The Palestinian woman and two of her children were allegedly shot after they misunderstood instructions about which way to walk having been ordered out of their home by troops.
"The climate in general... I don't know how to describe it.... the lives of Palestinians, let's say, are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers," an infantry squad leader is quoted saying.

In another cited case, a commander ordered troops to kill an elderly woman walking on a road, even though she was easily identifiable and clearly not a threat.
Testimonies, which were given by combat pilots and infantry soldiers, also included allegations of unnecessary destruction of Palestinian property.
"We would throw everything out of the windows to make room and order. Everything... Refrigerators, plates, furniture. The order was to throw all of the house's contents outside," a soldier said.
One non-commissioned officer related at the seminar that an old woman crossing a main road was shot by soldiers.
"I don't know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don't know her story… I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out… It was cold-blooded murder," he said.
The transcript of the session for the college's Yitzhak Rabin pre-military course, which was held last month, appeared in a newsletter published by the academy.
Israeli human rights groups have criticised the military for failing to properly investigate violations of the laws of war in Gaza despite plenty of evidence of possible war crimes.
'Moral army'
The soldiers' testimonies also reportedly told of an unusually high intervention by military and non-military rabbis, who circulated pamphlets describing the war in religious terminology.

Palestinian civilians paid a heavy price during the three-week Israeli operation
"All the articles had one clear message," one soldier said. "We are the people of Israel, we arrived in the country almost by miracle, now we need to fight to uproot the gentiles who interfere with re-conquering the Holy Land."
"Many soldiers' feelings were that this was a war of religion," he added.
Defence Minister Ehud Barak told Israel Radio that the findings would be examined seriously.
"I still say we have the most moral army in the world. Of course there may be exceptions but I have absolutely no doubt this will be inspected on a case-by-case basis," he said.
Medical authorities say more than 1,300 Palestinians were killed during Israel's 22-day operation, including some 440 children, 110 women, and dozens of elderly people.
The stated aim was to curb rocket and mortar fire by militants from Gaza. Thirteen Israelis, including three civilians were killed.

[Mark in Oshawa]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm


Eki...good article. You do realize though you are partially proving one of my points all along though. That is, in Israel, such reporting and such scrutiny of their actions is allowed in their society. When an Arab journalist is as frank and critical of the actions of Hamas or Hezbollah in a newspaper from Gaza or the West Bank, then I will be impressed. I have never once said Israel isn't above reproach, but I will say they are a democracy and they will make mistakes but they have the right to defend themselves and they didn't start this latest fight. They are awfully nasty and brutal at times, no doubt and this is starting to be overkill, but again, Hamas brought this on the people of Gaza with their rocket attacks and they knew damn well what the consequences would be if the Israeli army was unleashed.

[donKey jote]

you're not blaming Hamas on the overkill now are you? What happened "Guns don't kill, people do" :mark:

In other news, Hamas also brings about some of the IDF's latest fashionware (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072466.html).

enough is enough, even to some israelis:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072821.html


To do this without any unnecessary moral qualms we have trained our soldiers to think that the lives and property of Palestinians have no value whatsoever. It is part of a process of dehumanization that has endured for dozens of years, the fruits of the occupation.
...
Most of the soldiers who took part in the assault on Gaza are youths with morals. Some of them will volunteer for any mission. They will escort an old woman across the street or rescue earthquake victims. But in Gaza, when faced with the inhuman Palestinians, the package will always be suspicious, the brainwashing will be stupefying and the core principles will change. That is the only way they can kill and engage in wanton destruction without deliberating or wrestling with their consciences, not even telling their friends or girlfriends what they did.

Regarding the statement of one soldier, who said "As much as we talk about the IDF being an army of values, let's just say this is not the situation on the ground, not on the battalion level," the IDF has long ceased to be an army of "values," not on the ground, not in the battalion, not in the senior command. When an army does not investigate thousands of cases of killing over many years, the message to the soldiers is clear, and it comes from the top.
...
What the soldiers of the preparatory academy described were war crimes, for which they should be tried. This will not happen, save for the grotesque spectacle of "principled probes" in an army that killed 1,300 people in 25 days and left 100,000 homeless. Military police investigations will not lead to anything.

The IDF is incapable of investigating the crimes of its soldiers and commanders, and it is ridiculous to expect it to do so. These are not instances of "errant fire," but of deliberate fire resulting from an order. These are not "a few bad apples," but rather the spirit of the commander, and this spirit has been bad and corrupt for quite some time.

Change will not come without a major change in mindset. Until we recognize the Palestinians as human beings, just as we are, nothing will change. But then, the occupation would collapse, God forbid. In the meantime, prepare for the next war and the horrific testimonies about the most moral army in the world.

[Rollo]

When both Jews and Muslims claim that Jerusalem is holy land, and both of them claim that their claim is better than the other, added to the fact that this argument is older than either the modern states of Israel and Palestine, then the general conflict will never have a solution ever.

Because no-one is prepared to put up, shut up and get along, then quite frankly, every single Semitic group is wrong. I condemn the lot equally.

[Eki]

When both Jews and Muslims claim that Jerusalem is holy land, and both of them claim that their claim is better than the other, added to the fact that this argument is older than either the modern states of Israel and Palestine, then the general conflict will never have a solution ever.

Because no-one is prepared to put up, shut up and get along, then quite frankly, every single Semitic group is wrong. I condemn the lot equally.
Me too, but mostly I condemn those who have moved there from Europe and Americas and added to the problem.

[Cooper_S]

One account tells of a sniper killing a mother and children at close range


surely that defeats the point of being a sniper...

[Easy Drifter]

So Eki, you disagree with the concept of immigration?

[Tazio]

So Eki, you disagree with the concept of immigration?I do if it is to displace indigenous people, while territory is in dispute!

[Easy Drifter]

Don't forget Taz that the Aboriginal people disputed the settlement of much of North America by the Palefaces.
Consider the number of Treaties with the natives broken by the Europeans in the settlement of both the US and Canada.
WW2 was started by Germany taking by force disputed territories.
Historically the Israelis have as much, if not more right, to the area they occupy as do the Palestinians.

[Eki]

So Eki, you disagree with the concept of immigration?
If the immigration policy of a country favors one religion and discriminates against another, then I disagree with that immigration policy. Israel lets in Jews indiscriminately and give them land, while it oppresses Muslims already inside the country.

[Easy Drifter]

The Israeli Muslims have more freedom and ability to make a living than those who are not Hamas do in the Gaza strip.
It is not safe to be openly Christian in Iran but I do not see you condeming Iran.
Eki: In my opinion you are anti Jew and anti US.
Did you condem the recent slaughter of British soldiers in Ireland by extremists?
If it had been Israeli or US soldiers killing someone you would have been the first to post.
You certainly appear to have two standards.

[Tazio]

Don't forget Taz that the Aboriginal people disputed the settlement of much of North America by the Palefaces.
Consider the number of Treaties with the natives broken by the Europeans in the settlement of both the US and Canada.
WW2 was started by Germany taking by force disputed territories.
Historically the Israelis have as much, if not more right, to the area they occupy as do the Palestinians.I agree with all the above, without reservation! But answer me this.
How many Palestinians have "Immigrated" to Palestine From the U.S. and Europe?
You may be able to count them on one hand! :dozey:

[Easy Drifter]

Taz: You are likely quite right.
Now how many Palestinians have emmigrated to Europe, Canada and the US?
I know we have pretty high numbers.
We also have a fair number of Israelis who have emingrated to Canada, although not nearly as many.
When the brown stuff hit the fan in Lebanon a while ago it turned out there were over 10,000 Cdn. passport holders there. We spent untold $ getting them out, even chartering ships. It settled down and most went back. Very handy to have Cdn. citizenship when trouble hits.
Also shows how stupid our immigration laws are.

[Tazio]

Historically the Israelis have as much, if not more right, to the area they occupy as do the Palestinians. Only according to the Old Testament :crazy:
There is more scientific evidence to the contrary!

"Some prehistoric tools and human bone fragments found at El-'Ubeidiya, 2 miles (3 km) south of Lake Tiberias date back as early as 500,000 years ago, [36][37] and ritual burial sites with complete human remains go back 50,000 to 70,000 years.[38] The discovery of the Palestine Man in the Zuttiyeh Cave in Wadi Al-Amud near Safad in 1925 provided some clues to human development in the area.[36][39][40]

In the caves of Shuqba in Ramallah and Wadi Khareitun in Bethlehem, stone, wood and animal bone tools were found and attributed to the Natufian culture (c. 12800–10300 BCE). Other remains from this era have been found at Tel Abu Hureura, Ein Mallaha, Beidha and Jericho.[36][41]

Between 10000 and 5000 BCE, agricultural communities were established. Evidence of such settlements were found at Tell es-Sultan, Jericho and include mud-brick rounded and square dwellings, pottery shards, and fragments of woven fabrics"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

[Easy Drifter]

I disagree. The Jewish (Israeli) religion is from one semetic tribe that took up the religion of Judaism. The Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrian & Jordian countries and people are all made up of semetic tribes. The others became, or were muslim and some later were christian. The Roman Catholic and Greek Orthadox churches grew out of Judaism although they were not of the semetic tribes.
Confusing, yes but the jewish people were basically always there.
They are as much a semetic tribe as the palestinians.
I do not agree with Israels' treatment of the palestinian population but I believe, maybe optimistically, that if real peace came about the Israelis would gradually ease and eventually do away with restrictions.
I do not think I will live long enough to see that.

[Tazio]

I'm not sure how relavent the Muslim, Jewish question is.
Considering the fact that they both follow the old testament, in terms of it's "superstition"
My point is that neither have a more legitamate claim on the land when it comes down to who was there first!

[Easy Drifter]

On that I concur.
I was getting worried there. You and I hardly ever are on opposite sides. :)

[SOD]

time for the jobnicks to speak out........ :/

[Tazio]

On that I concur.
I was getting worried there. You and I hardly ever are on opposite sides. :)
;)

[Eki]

.
It is not safe to be openly Christian in Iran but I do not see you condeming Iran.

Not true. Catholics even have a seat in the Iranian parliament:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majlis_of_Iran

Jews have a seat likewise.

[Easy Drifter]

Ok Eki, you go to Iran and openly be critical of the Govt. or radical Islam and see what happens.
A couple of hand picked quisling types in Parliament do not make a free country.
After all pronouncing death sentences on Muslim authors that do not live in Iran who disagree with your vision of an Islamic world is certainly a good example of freedom of expression.
Not to mention arming of terrorists. But I forgot that you are a member of Hamas.

[Tazio]

I disagree. The Jewish (Israeli) religion is from one semetic tribe that took up the religion of Judaism. The Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrian & Jordian countries and people are all made up of semetic tribes. The others became, or were muslim and some later were christian. The Roman Catholic and Greek Orthadox churches grew out of Judaism although they were not of the semetic tribes.
Confusing, yes but the jewish people were basically always there.
They are as much a semetic tribe as the palestinians.
I do not agree with Israels' treatment of the palestinian population but I believe, maybe optimistically, that if real peace came about the Israelis would gradually ease and eventually do away with restrictions.
I do not think I will live long enough to see that.Not trying to beat a dead horse old chum but their is also this:

Babylon, the cradle of civilisation, was also the birthplace of the Hebrews, long before the People of Israel became a nation and appeared on the stage of history. This land was the birthplace of the Patriarch Abraham, who left Ur Kassdim, the ancient city in southern Mesopotamia, approximately 1900 B.C.E., in compliance with a Divine command, and migrated "To the land that I will show you," The Promised Land.


http://www.iraqijews.org/

[Easy Drifter]

Aye. Migration has been the history of the world. The spread of one tribe only stops when they bump into a stronger tribe, in very simplified terms.

[Rollo]

I'm not sure how relevant the Muslim, Jewish question is.

Not sure eh? This isn't a matter or how relevant the question is, this is THE ONLY question.



Considering the fact that they both follow the old testament, in terms of it's "superstition" My point is that neither have a more legitimate claim on the land when it comes down to who was there first!

Your point unfortunately is therefore wrong - the land was given to Abraham, then Isaac, then Israel.
God said to him, "Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel." So he named him Israel.
And God said to him, "I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will come from your body. The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you."
- Genesis 35:10-12

Since both the Jews and Muslims hold the Pentitude as being scriptural reliable, the land rightfully belongs to the descendants of Jacob (Israel).
Having said that, any oppression by the Israelis of Palestinians is also in violation of their own scripture:
Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.
- Exodus 22:21

When both sides continue to hack each other to bits, then I have no sympathy for either of them. I'll even go so far as to accuse the Semites themselves as being the most Anti-Semitic people on earth.

[Tazio]

Not sure eh? This isn't a matter or how relevant the question is, this is THE ONLY question.



Your point unfortunately is therefore wrong - the land was given to Abraham, then Isaac, then Israel.
God said to him, "Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel." So he named him Israel.
And God said to him, "I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will come from your body. The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you."
- Genesis 35:10-12

Since both the Jews and Muslims hold the Pentitude as being scriptural reliable, the land rightfully belongs to the descendants of Jacob (Israel).
Having said that, any oppression by the Israelis of Palestinians is also in violation of their own scripture:
Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.
- Exodus 22:21

When both sides continue to hack each other to bits, then I have no sympathy for either of them. I'll even go so far as to accuse the Semites themselves as being the most Anti-Semitic people on earth.

I'm not sure how relavent the Muslim, Jewish question is.
considering the fact that they both follow the old testament, in terms of it's "superstition"
My point is that neither have a more legitamate claim on the land when it comes down to who was there first!

That was my only claim in that regard and it was in respect to one made by ED

Don't cherry pick my posts je*k-wad. I havn't condoned the violence on either side.
Simply stated that neither have an exclusive claim on the land!
Have a nice day ;)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Not sure eh? This isn't a matter or how relevant the question is, this is THE ONLY question.



Your point unfortunately is therefore wrong - the land was given to Abraham, then Isaac, then Israel.
God said to him, "Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel." So he named him Israel.
And God said to him, "I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will come from your body. The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you."
- Genesis 35:10-12

Since both the Jews and Muslims hold the Pentitude as being scriptural reliable, the land rightfully belongs to the descendants of Jacob (Israel).
Having said that, any oppression by the Israelis of Palestinians is also in violation of their own scripture:
Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.
- Exodus 22:21

When both sides continue to hack each other to bits, then I have no sympathy for either of them. I'll even go so far as to accuse the Semites themselves as being the most Anti-Semitic people on earth.

Rollo, it is a good bit of research you did there but you do realize some cherry pick to believe what they want from the Old Testament or New, or Koran for that matter.

My only point I have with all of this is this Idea that Israelis are bent on Genocide. If they were, the carnage would be worse...BELIEVE ME.

[Rollo]

The thing is though, is that the whole argument over who owns the land is founded on religion. Since Moses is one of the Ulul Azmi (one of the five highest and most revered prophets in Islam) and since the teachings of the Ulul Azmi are binding on all Muslims according to the Koran, then it follows that both Muslims and Jews must accept what is placed before them.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The thing is though, is that the whole argument over who owns the land is founded on religion. Since Moses is one of the Ulul Azmi (one of the five highest and most revered prophets in Islam) and since the teachings of the Ulul Azmi are binding on all Muslims according to the Koran, then it follows that both Muslims and Jews must accept what is placed before them.

5 bucks says the Jew's are more accepting of this than most Moslems.....

[F1boat]

When both Jews and Muslims claim that Jerusalem is holy land, and both of them claim that their claim is better than the other, added to the fact that this argument is older than either the modern states of Israel and Palestine, then the general conflict will never have a solution ever.


Yes! These are religious wars, mindless and endless!