The Pope and Condoms

[Valve Bounce]

This is the view of the Pontiff: “You can't resolve it with the distribution of condoms,” the pope told reporters aboard the Alitalia plane headed to Yaounde, Cameroon, where he will begin a seven-day pilgrimage on the continent. “On the contrary, it increases the problem.”

I just wonder what other forum members think of this stand.

I have my own views on this matter which I will post later so as not to influence other forum members.

[ShiftingGears]

Yeah, because condoms spread disease. Not bodily fluids.


FACT.

[Roamy]

well they really don't need them with altar boys !!

[Tazio]

This is the view of the Pontiff: “You can't resolve it with the distribution of condoms,” the pope told reporters aboard the Alitalia plane headed to Yaounde, Cameroon, where he will begin a seven-day pilgrimage on the continent. “On the contrary, it increases the problem.”

I just wonder what other forum members think of this stand.

I have my own views on this matter which I will post later so as not to influence other forum members.I'm not sure what the issue is but if it's aids condoms are definitely an effective preventive measure especially in the case of homosexual relationships. Contrary to popular belief Aids is not an easy disease to catch in straight sex unlike the other appendages where bleeding occurs as a result of colon trauma the virus has to penetrate the nucleus of a cell unless it is deposited directly into the blood stream. That is why it is a death sentence to receive the virus from a transfusion! Valve I realize the season hasn't even started but may I borrow your Mantra?---Link Please :p :

[Roamy]

All my Women have "colon trauma" :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[Tazio]

All my Women have "colon trauma" :rotflmao: :rotflmao: And you have only received it from your men? :p :

[Valve Bounce]

I'm not sure what the issue is but if it's aids condoms are definitely an effective preventive measure especially in the case of homosexual relationships. Contrary to popular belief Aids is not an easy disease to catch in straight sex unlike the other appendages where bleeding occurs as a result of colon trauma the virus has to penetrate the nucleus of a cell unless it is deposited directly into the blood stream. That is why it is a death sentence to receive the virus from a transfusion! Valve I realize the season hasn't even started but may I borrow your Mantra?---Link Please :p :

http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/worldnextdoor/archive/2009/03/17/the-pope-is-dangerously-wrong-about-condoms-in-africa.aspx

and in particular: This is as reckless as it is untrue. In Senegal, to take one example, a massive campaign promoting the use of condoms, combined with the distribution of condoms, caught the HIV epidemic early and is one of the main reasons why Senegal's current HIV rates are so low.

This is from a World Health Organization site:

The West African country of Senegal is one of the few countries in sub-Saharan Africa to have succeeded in containing the spread of HIV from the outset. Since the first cases appeared in the country in the mid-1980s, infection rates have remained consistently low at under 2% -- largely due to the success of a nationwide campaign to modify sexual behaviour. This has led to a massive increase in the use of condoms and a delay in the age at which teenage girls first have sex. ...

The rest of that article is just as relevant.

I think this is an important subject to discuss, and one helluva problem affecting most of the other countries in Africa.

Please note that I am not encouraging any disparaging remarks to be directed towards the Pontiff; I am just stating my view that he, and the Catholic Church are completely out of touch with the realities of an epidemic.

[A.F.F.]

well they really don't need them with altar boys !!

:laugh:

[Dave B]

Usually religion is just harmless guff for the gullible or lonely, but occasionally it crosses the line and becomes downright dangerous. The pope should keep his mouth shut, or better still use his position to try and influence the uneducated to practice safer sex.

[A.F.F.]

Maybe he is doing the opposite on purpose ?? I mean, the guy looks like a sith-lord. Surely that can't be good ?

[Tazio]

http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/worldnextdoor/archive/2009/03/17/the-pope-is-dangerously-wrong-about-condoms-in-africa.aspx

and in particular: This is as reckless as it is untrue. In Senegal, to take one example, a massive campaign promoting the use of condoms, combined with the distribution of condoms, caught the HIV epidemic early and is one of the main reasons why Senegal's current HIV rates are so low.

This is from a World Health Organization site:

The West African country of Senegal is one of the few countries in sub-Saharan Africa to have succeeded in containing the spread of HIV from the outset. Since the first cases appeared in the country in the mid-1980s, infection rates have remained consistently low at under 2% -- largely due to the success of a nationwide campaign to modify sexual behaviour. This has led to a massive increase in the use of condoms and a delay in the age at which teenage girls first have sex. ...

The rest of that article is just as relevant.

I think this is an important subject to discuss, and one helluva problem affecting most of the other countries in Africa.

Please note that I am not encouraging any disparaging remarks to be directed towards the Pontiff; I am just stating my view that he, and the Catholic Church are completely out of touch with the realities of an epidemic.It's a no brainer period!

[Tazio]

Usually religion is just harmless guff for the gullible or lonely, but occasionally it crosses the line and becomes downright dangerous. The pope should keep his mouth shut, or better still use his position to try and influence the uneducated to practice safer sex.
You used the operative word!
I think organized religion gets a lot worse publicity then is warranted.
The people step into those rooms because that is how they "get their spirit on" And no one even if the person is a known hypocrite should be denied his opportunity to get his on.
But I have to say that in today’s world where information is exchanged so thoroughly that the pope's contingency on this issue are (and I'm going to use that word) "A very gullible breed"

[Tazio]

You used the operative word!
I think organized religion gets a lot worse publicity then is warranted.
The people step into those rooms because that is how they "get their spirit on" And no one even if the person is a known hypocrite should be denied his opportunity to get his on.
But I have to say that in today’s world where information is exchanged so thoroughly that the pope's constituancy on this issue are (and I'm going to use that word) "A very gullible breed"

.

[ShiftingGears]

It's a no brainer period!

Damn right.

[gadjo_dilo]

I can't comment because he didn't explain why.

[Roamy]

http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/worldnextdoor/archive/2009/03/17/the-pope-is-dangerously-wrong-about-condoms-in-africa.aspx

and in particular: This is as reckless as it is untrue. In Senegal, to take one example, a massive campaign promoting the use of condoms, combined with the distribution of condoms, caught the HIV epidemic early and is one of the main reasons why Senegal's current HIV rates are so low.

This is from a World Health Organization site:

The West African country of Senegal is one of the few countries in sub-Saharan Africa to have succeeded in containing the spread of HIV from the outset. Since the first cases appeared in the country in the mid-1980s, infection rates have remained consistently low at under 2% -- largely due to the success of a nationwide campaign to modify sexual behaviour. This has led to a massive increase in the use of condoms and a delay in the age at which teenage girls first have sex. ...

The rest of that article is just as relevant.

I think this is an important subject to discuss, and one helluva problem affecting most of the other countries in Africa.

Please note that I am not encouraging any disparaging remarks to be directed towards the Pontiff; I am just stating my view that he, and the Catholic Church are completely out of touch with the realities of an epidemic.

BS it wasn't the condoms it was because the shot all the Monkeys :p

[Lousada]

Usually religion is just harmless guff for the gullible or lonely, but occasionally it crosses the line and becomes downright dangerous. The pope should keep his mouth shut, or better still use his position to try and influence the uneducated to practice safer sex.

You are forgetting the pope advocates abstinence. This is a 100% safe method of preventing diseases, unlike condoms.

[Caroline]

You are forgetting the pope advocates abstinence. This is a 100% safe method of preventing diseases, unlike condoms.

Yes I see what you mean, but the HIV virus isn't always contracted through unprotected sex.

Surely education is the key to a healthier society. But that costs money and it's easier (and cheaper) to tell people not to have sex.

[gadjo_dilo]

Yes I see what you mean, but the HIV virus isn't always contracted through unprotected sex.


I might be wrong but I think pope's opinion on condoms is related more to natality issue than to diseases.

[Daniel]

It's easier (and cheaper) to tell people not to have sex.

It is? :mark:

[donKey jote]

[abstinence] is a 100% safe method of preventing diseases, unlike condoms.

Unfortunately it is a wholly impracticable method, apart from being untrue... I was always told abstinence made you blind :p :

[Valve Bounce]

You are forgetting the pope advocates abstinence. This is a 100% safe method of preventing diseases, unlike condoms.

Yeah!! and see how well that's worked. :rolleyes:

[veeten]

Yes I see what you mean, but the HIV virus isn't always contracted through unprotected sex.

Surely education is the key to a healthier society. But that costs money and it's easier (and cheaper) to tell people not to have sex.


It is? :mark:

well, that's what she tells You, anyway... ;) :p :

[Brown, Jon Brow]

it's easier (and cheaper) to tell people not to have sex.


It is? :mark:

Sucks to be you Daniel! :p

[veeten]

Unfortunately it is a wholly impracticable method, apart from being untrue... I was always told abstinence made you blind :p :

naw, that's masturbation... along with hair growing from the palm of your hand. :p :

[Storm]

totally stupid...just what you expect of the Vatican though.

[Camelopard]

I was always told abstinence made you blind :p :


Ahhh, but it makes the heart grow fonder. :)

[Dave B]

You are forgetting the pope advocates abstinence. This is a 100% safe method of preventing diseases, unlike condoms.

His stance on abstinence is based on a 2000 year old book of fairy tales, it has no basis in the real world. You can't realistically expect people to stop doing one of the only fun things they have to look forward to in their short and impoverished lives. Better to educate them and provide the equipment so that they can minimise the risks as best they can.

[Tazio]

His stance on abstinence is based on a 2000 year old book of fairy tales, it has no basis in the real world. You can't realistically expect people to stop doing one of the only fun things they have to look forward to in their short and impoverished lives. Better to educate them and provide the equipment so that they can minimise the risks as best they can.Don't mince words Dave! Tell us how you really feel ;)

[gadjo_dilo]

You can't realistically expect people to stop doing one of the only fun things they have to look forward to in their short and impoverished lives.
I guess he thinks we should exceed the " fun " stage which is common to any animal and come to the level of spiritual happiness which is posible only to humans.

[donKey jote]

I guess he thinks we should exceed the " fun " stage which is common to any animal and come to the level of spiritual happiness which is posible only to humans.
U0kJHQpvgB8

[jso1985]

His stance on abstinence is based on a 2000 year old book of fairy tales, it has no basis in the real world. You can't realistically expect people to stop doing one of the only fun things they have to look forward to in their short and impoverished lives. Better to educate them and provide the equipment so that they can minimise the risks as best they can.

Agree.

But it's the church stance and nowadays none is forced to take it.
or to make it clear the spread of HIV in Africa can't only be blamed to the church, if they don't listen to the first advice in the first place, certainly the fact that they don't use condoms can't be attributed to the church solely, as that would mean they actually take the church's advice...

[Roamy]

indiscriminate sex

Now would you really pound some chick with a condom if you knew she had aids?????
something wrong with this story - just maybe you should get the first name before you screw

[Mark in Oshawa]

Funny...I always thought the Church was there to provide spiritual guidance and moral values. It isn't Pope's job to stop HIV by handing out condoms. I happen to agree it is wrong to think Condoms wont prevent the disease, Senegal proved it does, but it would be hypocritical of the Pope to his followers to say anything else. It's ok, he forgives those who use the condoms though, it is part of that being a Christian thing that some people fail to grasp.

Gadjo, you have it right. Just rutting everything that moves for entertainment is our animal instincts at their most base level. The Pope is trying to encourage us to be better than that. I am not Catholic but I can respect him for his wishes, even if I think it is a tad wrong in this case.

[Valve Bounce]

Gadjo, you have it right. Just rutting everything that moves for entertainment is our animal instincts at their most base level. The Pope is trying to encourage us to be better than that. I am not Catholic but I can respect him for his wishes, even if I think it is a tad wrong in this case.

You do know about the Borgias, don't you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Borgia

[gadjo_dilo]

You do know about the Borgias, don't you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Borgia

An old romanian saying is : "Do what the priest is preaching, don't do what the priest is doing ".

We follow this advice and things are going very well.

[Tazio]

You do know about the Borgias, don't you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_BorgiaValve you are wrong to compare the papacy of the 16th century with that of the 20th or 21st.
If that were a viable argument than so would this:
Abraham Lincoln was a racist, ignorant, White Supremacist.
Lincoln is on record as saying;
I believe Negros should be freed of the bondage of slavery, even though they will never be on the same intellectual footing as whites
(not verbatim as I don't have the text on hand)
If alive today I think Lincoln would have a slightly different take on this subject. :dozey:

[Tazio]

Funny...I always thought the Church was there to provide spiritual guidance and moral values. It isn't Pope's job to stop HIV by handing out condoms. I happen to agree it is wrong to think Condoms wont prevent the disease, Senegal proved it does, but it would be hypocritical of the Pope to his followers to say anything else. It's ok, he forgives those who use the condoms though, it is part of that being a Christian thing that some people fail to grasp.

Gadjo, you have it right. Just rutting everything that moves for entertainment is our animal instincts at their most base level. The Pope is trying to encourage us to be better than that. I am not Catholic but I can respect him for his wishes, even if I think it is a tad wrong in this case. Mark I have found a subject of which you and I are in total agreement. Scary Movie :eek:

[Roamy]

Back when I was growing up we were smart enough that sex education was not needed. We clearly understood at a young age "Put it in here and Rumba"

So we left it up to you and now we have sex education, aids, condoms, fag priests and the like,

something is wrong with this picture.

[Tazio]

Back when I was growing up we were smart enough that sex education was not needed. We clearly understood at a young age "Put it in here and Rumba"

So we left it up to you and now we have sex education, aids, condoms, fag priests and the like,

something is wrong with this picture.When I was growing up Sex education was mandatory in fifth grade 1965.
Not all Parents in the "Good old days" read Dr. Spock.
I remember one student asking and I quote
"with all this sperm going around how does it get through the clothes" :rolleyes:


fag priests and the like, something is wrong with this picture
For instance you being homophobic ;)

[Mark in Oshawa]

You do know about the Borgias, don't you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Borgia

Bouncer...I think the current Pope whatever his sins, is not in the same league with the House of Borgia.

We have to look at this in perspective. The Pope is Catholic. The church has dictated for years that large families and no birth control is in god's graces. He CANNOT advocate anything else even if he wanted to. To make changes in dogma that dramatic it takes YEARS and DECADES. So he isn't going to advocate condom use even in Africa where god knows it is needed.

I wont condemn the man for sticking to his principles. Whatever what might think of the Catholic Church, at least they have a set of princples they live by, which the last time I looked was the whole idea of being in a religion. YOU BELIEVE in something. This secular notion to go with the flow and change as circumstances tell you means you really have no back bone nor guiding princples. A political decision if you will. I think I have seen enough of those floaters in my life to know I trust their judgement LESS.

[Valve Bounce]

Bouncer...I think the current Pope whatever his sins, is not in the same league with the House of Borgia.

We have to look at this in perspective. The Pope is Catholic. The church has dictated for years that large families and no birth control is in god's graces. He CANNOT advocate anything else even if he wanted to. To make changes in dogma that dramatic it takes YEARS and DECADES. So he isn't going to advocate condom use even in Africa where god knows it is needed.

I wont condemn the man for sticking to his principles. Whatever what might think of the Catholic Church, at least they have a set of princples they live by, which the last time I looked was the whole idea of being in a religion. YOU BELIEVE in something. This secular notion to go with the flow and change as circumstances tell you means you really have no back bone nor guiding princples. A political decision if you will. I think I have seen enough of those floaters in my life to know I trust their judgement LESS.

You can't condemn the popes: they have declared themselves infallible through the years.

My point here is what process selected the Borgias as pontiffs? What makes anyone think that today's pope is infallible?

[Valve Bounce]

The Pope's statement (on condoms) is a threat to public health. Urging people to ignore medical advice on condoms is not a pro life position; it is a guaranteed prescription for more funerals. The medical advice is overwhelming: the pope's claim is absurd and irresponsible

[Mark in Oshawa]

You can't condemn the popes: they have declared themselves infallible through the years.

My point here is what process selected the Borgias as pontiffs? What makes anyone think that today's pope is infallible?


He isn't. I wont argue with you on that but I am not a Catholic. I am not a fan of most religions in that I think most have their good and bad points.

What selected the Borgia's and this pope are NOT the same. I don't think a Pope could be as corrupt in his whole life as those characters were in their first 10 minutes of the day. It is a different world. No one with that many sins to their soul would make it to Cardinal much less Pope. That said, we are not arguing how the Catholic church is lead.

The Pope is saying this because this is what his predecessors said. They don't see Condoms as useful or right because they are against sex outside of marriage and they are against sex for recreational purposes. HE CANT SAY anything else without turning over thousands of years of religious dogma and Catholic views. I didn't say he was right, I am pointing out he is being consistent and having the courage of his views. In this case it is wrong but you cant expect anything else. You keep wanting to bring up the corrupt nature of the church. During the Borgias it was and is in some dark corners now. Any organization made up of humans has it. Still doesn't change the fact the church either stands for what it stands for or it has no crediblity.

This condom controversay is a reason I wouldn't be a Catholic but I don't hold it against them for viewing sex the way they do. I don't have to follow their views. If a doc from the UN or some nation said what the Pope said, THEN I would be pi$$ed off....

[Valve Bounce]

This condom controversay is a reason I wouldn't be a Catholic but I don't hold it against them for viewing sex the way they do. I don't have to follow their views. If a doc from the UN or some nation said what the Pope said, THEN I would be pi$$ed off....

I do have very serious reservations about this. The churches, including the Catholic Church, has been protecting and hiding the very serious offences of pedophile priests, shuffling them around the different dioceses, and then when they finally cannot dispute these offenses, they deny responsibility by claimimg that some board made up of lay persons who manage the day to day activities of churches (like cleaning and so on) are responsible.

This business of abstinence is all BS, make no mistake, unless one considers the buggering of alter boys doesn't qualify under their rules of abstinence.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I do have very serious reservations about this. The churches, including the Catholic Church, has been protecting and hiding the very serious offences of pedophile priests, shuffling them around the different dioceses, and then when they finally cannot dispute these offenses, they deny responsibility by claimimg that some board made up of lay persons who manage the day to day activities of churches (like cleaning and so on) are responsible.

This business of abstinence is all BS, make no mistake, unless one considers the buggering of alter boys doesn't qualify under their rules of abstinence.

Far be it for me to defend the Catholic Church on this one. I wont, I agree with you they have a lot to answer for but you are of course holding that group of fallable humans to a higher standard than other groups of fallable humans. The point of the thread tho was the Pope was advocating abstinence over condoms. I pointed out I didn't agree but that the Pope couldn't say anything else. Also note this Pope has done some weeding out of those who did this and the church is now not covering up for this crap that is going on.

Your hatred of the Catholic church is justified up to a point but I will never condemn the whole religion based on the actions of a few. And they are a few. Governments have crooks and coverups in every nation on the world, so why would something as big as the Roman Catholic church be much difference.

Heck...I think the Catholic church is loopy for not allowing Priests to marry and nuns to marry but THAT is their religion. It is THEIR choice and religions that change and blow with the wind don't really represent anything but what is policitally cute at that moment. That isn't religion, that's pop culture....

[Mark in Oshawa]

This business of abstinence is all BS, make no mistake, unless one considers the buggering of alter boys doesn't qualify under their rules of abstinence.

Absintence will never transmit a sperm to where it shouldn't be or cause STD's. It isn't a bad bit of advice. Don't we all pass it on to our mates when they look like they are going home with the wrong girl? As for the alter boys, I think that is a homosexual/pedophile denail thing more than an abstinence thing. Again, the Catholic church isn't the only place we find homosexuals not out of the closet or pedophiles. They are everywhere in society. ( they are also not related...make no mistake on that )

[Cooper_S]

This business of abstinence is all BS, make no mistake, unless one considers the buggering of alter boys doesn't qualify under their rules of abstinence.

Just where do you get off with this drivel... if it is your belief that this is some how the norm for the catholic church and it's priesthood then 'sur' your input on this subject is worthless...

[Valve Bounce]

Just where do you get off with this drivel... if it is your belief that this is some how the norm for the catholic church and it's priesthood then 'sur' your input on this subject is worthless...

This is what the Church believes in hiding. They have shuffled offenders around the country, and even protecting them from the law. I didn't say this is the norm, but the Church sure as hell doesn't condemn it to the point of bringing these buggers to justice.

Show me where I am wrong!!

[Cooper_S]

I didn't say this is the norm.... Show me where I am wrong!!


On the contrary that is exactly what your post inferred... as I said your comments are effectively worthless, and as such you show your self to be wrong... you need no assistance from me.

[ShiftingGears]

Agree.

But it's the church stance and nowadays none is forced to take it.
or to make it clear the spread of HIV in Africa can't only be blamed to the church, if they don't listen to the first advice in the first place, certainly the fact that they don't use condoms can't be attributed to the church solely, as that would mean they actually take the church's advice...

But if it discourages even 10% to not wear a condom, they are making the problem worse.

[Valve Bounce]

On the contrary that is exactly what your post inferred... as I said your comments are effectively worthless, and as such you show your self to be wrong... you need no assistance from me.

My post doesn't infer anything - it has stated things very clearly. If you wish to just quote a small part of my post then say my comments are worthless, that just shows you up for misquoting. Show me where my comments about the church hiding pedophiles and shielding them from the law are incorrect.

[Valve Bounce]

But if it discourages even 10% to not wear a condom, they are making the problem worse.

I think this is the crux of the discussion here.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think this is the crux of the discussion here.

your right if this is the crux but why would a bright guy like you waste 4 or 5 posts ripping the church a new one over the alter boys getting molested. The church in Canada has NOT stopped prosecution of these priests and has been helping the law in some cases. Not everyone in the RC church is out to hide this evil. I will agree it went on and they should be ashamed of themselves for protecting these jerks but that isn't the point of the thread now is it? You just said THAT was the crux.....

[Valve Bounce]

your right if this is the crux but why would a bright guy like you waste 4 or 5 posts ripping the church a new one over the alter boys getting molested. The church in Canada has NOT stopped prosecution of these priests and has been helping the law in some cases. Not everyone in the RC church is out to hide this evil. I will agree it went on and they should be ashamed of themselves for protecting these jerks but that isn't the point of the thread now is it? You just said THAT was the crux.....

This all results from the celibacy and Abstinence BS. Do you really think that is natural? These buggers didn't.

[Alexamateo]

Let's put things in a different light;

I read a study not long ago (no link, going from memory here) by a dermatologist who tied increased incidences of skin cancer to increased use of sunscreens and sunblock. In his view, it increased risky behavior by encouraging people to spend too much time in the sun by lulling them to a false sense of security rather than covering up or avoiding the sun altogether.

Using the same logic here, one could say that condom use can lead to an increased incidence in sexually transmitted diseases by lulling one into a false sense of security. I don't know about diseases, but condoms have about a 15% pregnancy rate. (meaning of a 100 couples using this method, 15% would get pregnant in a year's time.)

Abstinence and Monogamy! What a concept! :p : :)

[Tazio]

Valve I'm going to offer you a parachute. What do you or anyone else (that isn't on my ignore list) think of the current Pontiff's latest ejaculation?

He said those who live in fear of spirits and threatening powers are disoriented and bewildered and end up condemning street children and the elderly as sorcerers. The pope criticized suggestions that such evangelism insults other faiths, saying Catholics do no injustice to anyone by presenting Christ as an opportunity of finding what he called "their truest and most authentic selves, the joy of finding life."
http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-03-21-voa16.cfm?rss=topstories

A wee bit revisionist IMO it’s worth mentioning that it is something "in the past" they were rather adamant about.

I know you are not an authority on this matter because you once told me that from your education (technical) you thought (although I'm pretty sure you were joking) that the Spanish Inquisition was a science experiment. :eek:

Are the Pontiff and the Catholic Church Flip-Floppers :confused:

BTW I was an Altar boy for a couple years! Yes me :eek:
I did it because I knew the joy it would bring to my mother a devout Catholic.
It wasn't that easy for a grade school boy to learn the entire Mass, and Benediction in Latin,
as well as other rituals; baptisms, and weddings, in English.
The only abuse I ever received was from this one Pr#cK of a priest that made me and my best friend
that served a mass together on a very hot summer day, and got a line (in Latin) incorrect.
That Joker had us go out and do the entire mass outside behind the church, as he told passersby
that we were doing "our penance in the sun"

I found out years later that these guys were having affairs with hotties in the congregation and the Monsignor just got up and took off with one. Imagine that! Full grown men becoming tired of abstinence, and having carnal relations with consenting females of legal age :crazy:
I'm pretty sure that is still a sin :p :

[Mark in Oshawa]

Valve I'm going to offer you a parachute. What do you or anyone else (that isn't on my ignore list) think of the current Pontiff's latest ejaculation?

He said those who live in fear of spirits and threatening powers are disoriented and bewildered and end up condemning street children and the elderly as sorcerers. The pope criticized suggestions that such evangelism insults other faiths, saying Catholics do no injustice to anyone by presenting Christ as an opportunity of finding what he called "their truest and most authentic selves, the joy of finding life."
http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-03-21-voa16.cfm?rss=topstories

A wee bit revisionist IMO it’s worth mentioning that it is something "in the past" they were rather adamant about.

I know you are not an authority on this matter because you once told me that from your education (technical) you thought (although I'm pretty sure you were joking) that the Spanish Inquisition was a science experiment. :eek:

Are the Pontiff and the Catholic Church Flip-Floppers :confused:

BTW I was an Altar boy for a couple years! Yes me :eek:
I did it because I knew the joy it would bring to my mother a devout Catholic.
It wasn't that easy for a grade school boy to learn the entire Mass, and Benediction in Latin,
as well as other rituals; baptisms, and weddings, in English.
The only abuse I ever received was from this one Pr#cK of a priest that made me and my best friend
that served a mass together on a very hot summer day, and got a line (in Latin) incorrect.
That Joker had us go out and do the entire mass outside behind the church, as he told passersby
that we were doing "our penance in the sun"

I found out years later that these guys were having affairs with hotties in the congregation and the Monsignor just got up and took off with one. Imagine that! Full grown men becoming tired of abstinence, and having carnal relations with consenting females of legal age :crazy:
I'm pretty sure that is still a sin :p :

Thank god they sinned with the women and NOT you.

That part of Catholicism is a real dinosaur but I guess the concept of self sacrifice of one's wants to serve a greater purpose is a noble idea. It FAILS a lot in this case and it is one of the dumbest things about the church but then again.....you either believe or you don't. I wont criticize the Pope for saying what they all have said for a long time. It is what they do. It is what they are. Millions believe and do good things with their faith, and a lot more people have been given something they need through the church than hurt by it. It is the Catholic church. To each their own.

I am a libertarian, I wont knock any religion that has good intentions and for the most part benign tenets that are designed to help people live better lives. No one is forcing it on me so as long as no one crosses the line and breaks the laws of the society they are in, or hurting anyone as an institutional policy, I am good with religion. I just don't practice it myself.

[Tazio]

Thank god they sinned with the women and NOT you.

FYI I don't take abuse, I give it! :dozey:

[Valve Bounce]

FYI I don't take abuse, I give it! :dozey:

Look!! this thread is about condoms, but I must admit that the celibacy laws does invite a lot of weirdos into the clergy, the so called "Brothers" as well as priests. I remember Brother Mooney, a huge, huge brute of a man who was headmaster at Nudgee Junior (primary school) who used to beat up on the little kids, including hitting one boy on the head with a fence paling. There was Brother Miller, a total psycho with huge hands who used to beat up kids at Nudgee Senior by slapping them around the head, full force.

But I must admit that schools of other denominations attract predators and both Church of England Grammar and Brisbane Grammar (among others) had problems with "counselors" who used to lock the doors to their rooms and then abuse children who were supposedly being counseled.

I can go on forever, but I think you get the picture. The best story I can tell was one of my classmates who became a priest. He went on some Catholic "gathering" to Rome and ran off with the head nun from All Hallows girls College while they were in Rome. They are happily married now!

[Tazio]

Look!! this thread is about condoms, but But it is so much fun to reminisce. ;)
I was spared that joyous experience of parochial school. My parents were Public School Teachers, too well informed to send us down that road. Plus when the Baby Boomers were in school at least in Southern California it was understood by those with half a brain that you received a much more rounded education in public schools. What went wrong with the Public Schools is parents, many with barely a high school education started making demands on everything from curriculum to conduct. Eventually alienating credentialed, tenured instructors This led to a gradual decline in overall teaching attractiveness to serious educators. I know my father said enough, and decided to take a position of teaching Nautical Navigation at an extension of the U.S Merchant Marine Academy. Today the children of these parents are raising, and I use the term loosely, children with no respect for the adult establishment, further exacerbating the situation.

I did get the life experience of catechism, religious instruction class one hour a week. Here again I was no fool, I always asked to sit in the front of the class and like public school back then you were rewarded for an honest effort to learn. I always got A's and in doing so learned enough about Catholicism to know that it wasn't for me. Those who chose not to give the effort had religion meted out on them. If you were disruptive some priests, and many Nuns, although I never had a nun for an instructor (I can only say many) must have felt it was the hand of god that flew at these dimwits, lame-o's, and many times perfect inocent students, not their own! :eek: Then I'm sure there were some that were just frustrated (I can't imagine why) and others that were plain mean-spirited. Rather un-Christian :(

[markabilly]

Look!! this thread is about condoms, but I must admit that the celibacy laws does invite a lot of weirdos into the clergy, the so called "Brothers" as well as priests. I remember Brother Mooney, a huge, huge brute of a man who was headmaster at Nudgee Junior (primary school) who used to beat up on the little kids, including hitting one boy on the head with a fence paling. There was Brother Miller, a total psycho with huge hands who used to beat up kids at Nudgee Senior by slapping them around the head, full force.

But I must admit that schools of other denominations attract predators and both Church of England Grammar and Brisbane Grammar (among others) had problems with "counselors" who used to lock the doors to their rooms and then abuse children who were supposedly being counseled.

I can go on forever, but I think you get the picture. The best story I can tell was one of my classmates who became a priest. He went on some Catholic "gathering" to Rome and ran off with the head nun from All Hallows girls College while they were in Rome. They are happily married now!


The one (Rudy Kos) down in Texas who got sued and defrocked, in introducing many of his fellow would be and some already ordained preists, to certain "joys" told them they would remain celibate provided they used their feet on each other.......

[Easy Drifter]

Still off topic but the abuse in church run schools (several denominations) for aboriginals in Canada is well documented.
The abuse happened in regular church run schools as well but not to the extent it did in aboriginal schools.
Although greatly diminished a few cases come up every year in RC schools, especially in poor rural areas and in some non denominational private schools.

[markabilly]

Still off topic but the abuse in church run schools (several denominations) for aboriginals in Canada is well documented.
The abuse happened in regular church run schools as well but not to the extent it did in aboriginal schools.
Although greatly diminished a few cases come up every year in RC schools, especially in poor rural areas and in some non denominational private schools.


Yeah well if they would use the Kos method, there is no need for condoms, unless athlete's foot could be considered an STD.....and where you gonna get a good foot condom anyway :confused:

[gadjo_dilo]

The Pope's statement (on condoms) is a threat to public health. Urging people to ignore medical advice on condoms is not a pro life position; it is a guaranteed prescription for more funerals. The medical advice is overwhelming: the pope's claim is absurd and irresponsible

Just a thought:
He speaks from the catholic church point of view. I'm not catholic but to my knowledge they preach that sexual relationships should stay in family, between husband and wife, and see adultery or homosexual relations as sins. A good catholic should respect the rules and then his health is not in danger.

[F1boat]

And I want to add that we have become very ugly as a society if we want to ban the Pope from speaking his views. He has the right to disagree with the opinion of the majority.
For the record, I do not agree with his opinion, but I agree with the fact that he has the right to speak his mind.

[donKey jote]

He also has the responsibilty not to contribute to making matters worse in countries with a massive Aids problem.
A decent silence on the matter would have sufficed, it's not like nobody knows what his good catholic lord tells him he must think.

[Daniel]

He also has the responsibilty not to contribute to making matters worse.
A decent silence on the matter would have sufficed, it's not like nobody knows what his good lord tells him he must think.
I agree. There is a difference between you or I saying something harmful and the guy who is supposed to be the representative of God saying something stupid :mark:

[cosmicpanda]

It's obvious that the Church is a bit out of touch.

As I understand it, they take the view that there should be no sexual contact between two unmarried people, and thus there is no need for condoms.

But let's face it, in today's world, that's unrealistic.

[F1boat]

You are sliding on very dangerous ground now. He has an OPINION about what must be done and it is pro-abstinence. Once you become to silence people because their "view" is "unrealistic" or "irresponsible", you hurt democracy. At least this is my view. I think that the Pope must be free to express his views whether you agree or disagree with him.

[gadjo_dilo]

As I understand it, they take the view that there should be no sexual contact between two unmarried people, and thus there is no need for condoms.

But let's face it, in today's world, that's unrealistic.

That's true but on the other hand I think that most of us would agree we're not living in a perfect world. :laugh:

[Dave B]

You are sliding on very dangerous ground now. He has an OPINION about what must be done and it is pro-abstinence. Once you become to silence people because their "view" is "unrealistic" or "irresponsible", you hurt democracy. At least this is my view. I think that the Pope must be free to express his views whether you agree or disagree with him.
The trouble is that the pope has millions of followers who hang on his every word and take it as gospel. His opinions by default become teachings. When you have that sort of power over peoples' lives you have to be very careful what you say. The pope either doesn't understand that or doesn't care.

[BDunnell]

Just a thought:
He speaks from the catholic church point of view. I'm not catholic but to my knowledge they preach that sexual relationships should stay in family, between husband and wife, and see adultery or homosexual relations as sins. A good catholic should respect the rules and then his health is not in danger.

There are an awful lot of bad Catholics. I increasingly believe that large parts of Catholic doctrine are simply incompatible with various accepted modern norms.

[BDunnell]

You are sliding on very dangerous ground now. He has an OPINION about what must be done and it is pro-abstinence. Once you become to silence people because their "view" is "unrealistic" or "irresponsible", you hurt democracy. At least this is my view. I think that the Pope must be free to express his views whether you agree or disagree with him.

But the fact that his views are highly dangerous and counterproductive needs to be stated in response.

[gadjo_dilo]

There are an awful lot of bad Catholics..

Isn't Pope mission to bring the lost sheep on the right way? :laugh:



I increasingly believe that large parts of Catholic doctrine are simply incompatible with various accepted modern norms.

That's a fact. But at the end of the day why are recent norms ( no offence but I avoid the term " modern " when speaking of nowadays ) better than catholic dogmas?
We still can't be sure what's the real purpose of our existance on earth.

[cosmicpanda]

That's a fact. But at the end of the day why are recent norms ( no offence but I avoid the term " modern " when speaking of nowadays ) better than catholic dogmas?
We still can't be sure what's the real purpose of our existance on earth.

Why do they have to be better than Catholic dogmas? What about other denominations/religions?

[gadjo_dilo]

Why do they have to be better than Catholic dogmas? What about other denominations/religions?

I didn't say that one is better than other. I only expressed my doubts that we could be in the position to determine who is right and who is wrong.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The trouble is that the pope has millions of followers who hang on his every word and take it as gospel. His opinions by default become teachings. When you have that sort of power over peoples' lives you have to be very careful what you say. The pope either doesn't understand that or doesn't care.

No Dave, respectfully I think you are missing the point. It isn't the Church's job to sanction behaviour that all the sudden society finds acceptable. The church is based on a philosophy and dogma that has been laid down over the ages. I don't agree with it probably any more than you do, but if a Church just adapts every 10 years to stay in fashion, what real meaning does it have? This isn't a business where shift with the market.

This is a religion. You join the religion based on the tenets of that faith. You believe in what the church is telling you at least partly if not wholly. Most Catholics try to follow the tenets of the church, and if the Pope is to have any credibility with his flock or church, he cant just wake up and say pre-maritial sex and sex outside of marriage is ok or he would be very quickly laughed at and then dismissed. The church has always been against the behaviour that also happens to be the best way of spreading AIDS, that is unprotected sex with multilple partners outside of marriage for reasons other than procreation. The fact condoms allow the behaviour to be "safe" for this is fine for dogs like yourself and myself when we are wild and crazy but THAT isn't what the Pope and his Church are ever going to advocate.

You guys keep saying he is nuts and out of date. No, he is teaching a philosophy of monogamy, absitinence and pious behaviour. If you are believing in all of that, to turn around and hand out condoms would sort of dilute the message wouldn't it?

I will say now and again, it aint the Catholic Church's job to sanction behaviour it doesn't agree with. You can argue people will die and that's fine, I wont disagree that because I think condoms are part of the solution in slowing and stopping AIDS in Africa; but the Catholic Church has always stood for sex only in marriage for procreation. If it changes now, then the whole church will be under assault and gone within a few generations.

Churches that try to stay hip or modern often just fade away. Look no further than the United Church here in Canada who decided that Gay/lesbian pastors were acceptable. Attendance for the United Church has nose dived as a result. People join churches to believe in a set of rules. The Church defines what it is about and it is up to you believe or not believe. The Pope was just being consistent. I happen to think he is wrong, but I cant knock the guy for being what he is....

[Mark]

It would be fine if those followers did exactly what the church was telling them. i.e. No sex outside of marriage, then we wouldn't have any problems. But it seems they are rather selective. Sex outside marriage, yes! Condoms, no!

You can't have everything, and you have to either stop one or allow the other.

[Mark in Oshawa]

It would be fine if those followers did exactly what the church was telling them. i.e. No sex outside of marriage, then we wouldn't have any problems. But it seems they are rather selective. Sex outside marriage, yes! Condoms, no!

You can't have everything, and you have to either stop one or allow the other.

Well he is asking his followers to be good Catholics. I wouldn't expect him to say anything else.

[Tazio]

I'm surprised no one has brought this up. On this subject in Africa the Pontiff has not prefaced his comments with "as practicing Catholics" you shouldn't use condoms. His message is meant for people of all faiths.( or none) That is where it is subject to scrutinizing by those who question its propriety!

[F1boat]

But the fact that his views are highly dangerous and counterproductive needs to be stated in response.

You can say that you disagree with him, not to try to force him to change his views. People think differently.

[Valve Bounce]

I'm surprised no one has brought this up. On this subject in Africa the Pontiff has not prefaced his comments with "as practicing Catholics" you shouldn't use condoms. His message is meant for people of all faiths.( or none) That is where it is subject to scrutinizing by those who question its propriety!

I am surprised that some here don't understand the Catholic Church's stand of Papal Infallibility. This is one of the tenets of the Catholic Church, and when the pope makes a declaration, it is understood by Catholics (supposedly) that he speaks for God.

This is not a matter of democracy where the pope says that it is his view - what he says is law!!

Now!! supposing some poor guy uses a condom, has sex with his wife, and dies of a heart attack before he can get to a priest to confess, then this poor guy, according to the popes declaration, will go straight to hell.

Now that is so ridiculous that I myself no longer have faith in the Vatican.

[gadjo_dilo]

Now!! supposing some poor guy uses a condom, has sex with his wife, and dies of a heart attack before he can get to a priest to confess, then this poor guy, according to the popes declaration, will go straight to hell.

Now that is so ridiculous that I myself no longer have faith in the Vatican.

Now!! supposing some poor guy doesn't use a condom, has random sex with an AIDS infected and dies of a heart attack before he can get to a priest to confess, then this poor guy, according to the reasoning above, will also go straight to hell because he had sex outside marriage, who knows maybe commited adultery or had same sex relationships.

Let's be serious, it's not that easy to go to hell. You can't be sent there for such petty sins. :laugh:
The role of church is to offer guidance on christian moral not to apply punishments. You're free to choose how to act on the principle that " you'll sleep the way you make your bed ".

[Valve Bounce]

Now!! supposing some poor guy doesn't use a condom, has random sex with an AIDS infected and dies of a heart attack before he can get to a priest to confess, then this poor guy, according to the reasoning above, will also go straight to hell because he had sex outside marriage, who knows maybe commited adultery or had same sex relationships.

Let's be serious, it's not that easy to go to hell. You can't be sent there for such petty sins. :laugh:
.

That's what I thought, but the priest at the confessional told me that is the case. You commit a mortal sin and don't get to confession, you go to hell. Same for missing mass on Sunday.

I now don't believe that either.

[gadjo_dilo]

That's what I thought, but the priest at the confessional told me that is the case. You commit a mortal sin and don't get to confession, you go to hell. Same for missing mass on Sunday.


On these circumstances I presume that Paradise is an empty place.... :laugh:
Why should be the absence from sunday mass a mortal sin?
And I think it's not enough to make a confession, it's also important to feel sorry/guilty for your deeds.

[Alexamateo]

.....Why should be the absence from sunday mass a mortal sin?.....

.

Not to take the thread off course, but if you are a Seventh-Day Adventist, going to church on Sunday is a sin, the church has erred in making Sunday the main worship day, because the Sabbath day is clearly Saturday.

I will say this though, I am a Protestant who married a Catholic girl in Mexico. I went through the platicas in Mexico and promised the priest I would raise any children we have Catholic, therefore we go to mass every Sunday. As an outsider, I find certain aspects of the Catholic Church peculiar, and other aspects completely fascinating.

I have no problems with the pope speaking as he did, in fact in this case I agree with him

[Drew]

More people with aids = more people likely to pray

[Tazio]

Does anyone else on this forum believe you create your own heaven, and or hell, and live in it here on earth?
Pino, could we have a poll?
(Unless you don't want to take a chance on being excommunicated) :p :

[Tazio]

On these circumstances I presume that Paradise is an empty place.... :laugh:
Why should be the absence from sunday mass a mortal sin?


But it is! I lived under that doctrine as a Catholic youth, the same as Valve.

7- Neglect of Sunday obligation: 2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00BCBD

Translation:
You are obliged to attend (under the penalty of committing a mortal sin) mass on Sunday! You are also guilty of a mortal sin if you do not receive Holy Communion on "Holy days of Obligation". Some of these rules may have been relaxed as it has been many years since I have been de-facto excommunicated :crazy:

[Roamy]

well if all this sh!t is true I will be so deep in hell that it should actually be cool!!

[gadjo_dilo]

Talking about sins and hell: yesterday I had a hell of a day. Just when the package of nerves I had been was ready to blow up, a neighbour to whom I lent some money came to pay the debt. I did the mistake to invite her in and ask some polite questions as she said she wanted money for a trip.
And she fu**ed my head with stories about a pilgrimage at some monasteries, about the icon that " showed itself to her ", about the devil who's tempting me and doesn't let me to obey the dark fast before Easter, about the fact the pilgrimage was in vain because she's cursed, about her sins which can't be forgiven at a normal confession, etc. I felt a lot of sympathy for her husband who used to be one of my childhood best friends and is a guy with a great sense of humour....

But as I beared her tirades which stoicism without showing her the door it means I did a good deed and it will balance one my numberless sins. :laugh:

Remembering our debate here I thought this woman would make a good catholic until the moment she launched herself in a virulent attack on catholics who try hard to destroy our church ( !!!!??!?).

[Tazio]

Talking about sins and hell: yesterday I had a hell of a day. Just when the package of nerves I had been was ready to blow up, a neighbour to whom I lent some money came to pay the debt. I did the mistake to invite her in and ask some polite questions as she said she wanted money for a trip.
And she fu**ed my head with stories about a pilgrimage at some monasteries, about the icon that " showed itself to her ", about the devil who's tempting me and doesn't let me to obey the dark fast before Easter, about the fact the pilgrimage was in vain because she's cursed, about her sins which can't be forgiven at a normal confession, etc. I felt a lot of sympathy for her husband who used to be one of my childhood best friends and is a guy with a great sense of humour....

But as I beared her tirades which stoicism without showing her the door it means I did a good deed and it will balance one my numberless sins. :laugh:

Remembering our debate here I thought this woman would make a good catholic until the moment she launched herself in a virulent attack on catholics who try hard to destroy our church ( !!!!??!?).There is an old proverb (one you will not hear in church) "No good deed goes unpunished"!
I admire your patience, and courtesy you showed this woman. I would have told her to hand over the frogskins,
and (as for the sermon) go tell someone that may actually give a sh!+ :dozey:

[gadjo_dilo]

There is an old proverb (one you will not hear in church) "No good deed goes unpunished"!


Of course you can't hear this in a church. As my religious neighbour would say: It's the devil who claims that. :laugh:

[Tazio]

As my religious neighbour would say: It's the devil who claims that. That puts a whole new definition on blindfaith :confused:
You have my sympathy :)

[Valve Bounce]

That puts a whole new definition on blindfaith :confused:
You have my sympathy :)

:eek:

[markabilly]

You are sliding on very dangerous ground now. He has an OPINION about what must be done and it is pro-abstinence. Once you become to silence people because their "view" is "unrealistic" or "irresponsible", you hurt democracy. At least this is my view. I think that the Pope must be free to express his views whether you agree or disagree with him.
Amen brother
I believe everyone is entitled to agree with me or be stupid and ignorant :vader:

there is a moderator around on one of the racing forums who holds this philosophy in high esteem, named rookie or beginner or whatever, except he like to excommunicate to compensate for certain shortcomings

Still trying to figure out what difference to anyone what the pope thinks when it comes to questioning how one should jump the hump, as unless one is certain they are enterring into virgin territory, self protection might be more of a life and death question for the donee than many realize :eek: :eek:

once there was a time when the fear was a case of clap or a little one popping out but so what? Was not like you were going to start shriveling up and die a painful death......but hey times done changed and reminds me of a joke for joke time!!!