Point system change announced!

[Bezza]

According to the live news feed on BBC Sport website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7948455.stm

[V12]

Hmm, so instead of accepting the FOTA (12-9-etc.) proposal, a very sensible one IMO, they've gone for some sort of b*stardised hybrid of Bernie's "medals" wet-dream and the existing system?

This is yet more unnecessary confusion, how will the standings be displayed then? With the points as usual but with some arbitrary switcharound should someone have more wins than the points leader?

This makes the old "dropped scores" thing (the exception that proves the rule that everything in F1 used to be better and more straightforward), look sensible!

The whole sport is becoming more and more like a girl you love to bits but keeps stretching your tolerance, doing things that make it harder and harder for you to stay with them... :mad:

What I want to know though is whatever happened to that fans survey promised by Ron Dennis on behalf of FOTA at his talk at the Autosport show?

[ioan]

Now that's interesting news.
Wins will decide the champion and as of 2010 there will be a budget cap of £30million?! :eek:

[ioan]

Hmm, so instead of accepting the FOTA (12-9-etc.) proposal, a very sensible one IMO, they've gone for some sort of b*stardised hybrid of Bernie's "medals" wet-dream and the existing system?

Yeah, something along those lines, a half arsed points system.

[Mark]

What? This is completely stupid. They are going off wins, and points. How compeltely bizarre.

So we could have a driver winning the championship because they have the most wins and yet still be behind in the points table.

Complete madness. Either go for a totally position based system or a points system not both!!

[thegreytist]

This new "points" system is ridiculous. I've been looking forward to the season so much these last couple of weeks hoping we can have maybe a repeat of last season, but this development has just sucked out so much of my excitement because I bet there's little next to no chance we're going to see a repeat of the drama of last season. Thanks FIA for a completely moronic decision.

[Dank Bank]

Am I drunk or did the last two seasons come down to ONE point? Yeah, that's far too boring. Just think, if this were the system in place last year, Brazil would have been a forgone conclusion all day. I sure did find it bothersome to not know who was going to win the Championship until the final corners. Thank God that will never happen again. :mad:

[Robinho]

new points system i don't like, it does not reward for a full season. concerivabley this year a Brawn could well win the first few races before getting swallowed up by the pack, which then split the wins 1 or 2 each between several teams. therefore Button or Barichello could end up world champ after winning 3 or 4 races and everyone else beats them in the points table but only wins 1 or 2 races each - madness!

as for the optional £30m budget cap, allowing teams to have less restrictive rules, i can see this being the mots contentious thing ever in F1.

budget reductions and sensible points systems as put forward by the teams would be great, this threatens to overshadow the promise of one of the most exciting seasons in recent history.

i don't think a lot of the fans will choose to recognise a "most wins" champ, especially if the points scoring system is kept in pace in the background

[I am evil Homer]

Once again F1 shoots itself in the foot....

[Shifter]

I woke up sick to my stomach today, and I didn't know why.

Now I do. I was really looking forward to the season and now I wonder if I should care at all

3-17-09 could be known as the day F1 died.

[Andrewmcm]

Oh well, what is shaping up to be an interesting year could be ruined before it even starts with this news. It's like the sports reporter on 5 Live just said - what if someone wins the first 7 races? They can pretty much take a holiday mid-season as they're unlikely to get beaten on the race-win count.....

[Robinho]

who do we complain to, how do we go about, as fans, showing that we don't want these rules?

[N. Jones]

Everyone hear has made a good argument. These rules are idiotic and only serves to make Bernie happy. The fans LOVED last season, so why change it?

[Mark]

who do we complain to, how do we go about, as fans, showing that we don't want these rules?

There is an automated system for doing so. Just put your complaint into a file named complaint.txt then type

mv complaint.txt /dev/null

[Shifter]

who do we complain to, how do we go about, as fans, showing that we don't want these rules?

The manufacturers. I have always wanted a BMW for instance, and their motorsport activities validate the company in my mind. If F1 is going to be allowed to turn into a joke, then I implore BMW to drop F1 and focus on their ALMS program where I'm going to care alot more.

[berniefails]

I can see your points but I have some issues with the points system.
First, the drivers champion for 2008 was a cheater (or benefited from cutting the corner(s)). who didn't even know or acknowlege he cheated. regaurdless of your view on spa 2008 he cheated , bottom line --and he's lucky he got the points he did. I would have black flagged him.
Second, the drivers champion also took out competitors with not stopping for a pit lane red light at canada 2008. What kind of racing series says there champion is someone who can't stop for a red light?
I will acknowledge that hamilton and mclaren had the best setup through the bettter part of the season, but massa got robbed. Maybe the medals system will work for the driver who has the best progression through the season and stays true to F1 driver etiquette.

[thegreytist]

I kinda hope one driver wins say 7 races, retires from every other one and the guy who finishes second in the championship wins 4 and comes 2nd every other time and have a hell of a lot more points than the champion. What a joke that would be.

[Knock-on]

This is stupid. It's going to be like posh bumper cars out there and drivers WILL get injured.

It's a victory for the F1 crash enthusiast IMHO and Max needs shooting.

All that will happen is drivers wont give any room making a faster driver backoff or take them out.

This is lunacy.

[I am evil Homer]

Or

8 wins and then DNF for 7 races, score point in one more VS 5 wins and 12 second places.

It's all a conspiracy to make Hamilton retain his title ;)

[thegreytist]

The FIA were perfectly happy with the old system that saw Kimi Raikkonen (who had 1 win) take the championship down to the last race with Schumacher (5 wins at the time) in 2003. Just think if we'd had this system now we would have been spared the awful inconvenience of having to get up in the early hours to watch a title decider.


And thinking of 2004 when Schumacher won all those races. The title would have been over by Round 10 in July. Utter joke

[ioan]

Dumbing F1 down even more. Thanks Bernie! :rolleye:

[F1boat]

This is the worst idea ever. Now I don't care for the championship anymore. F1 has become a joke. And the season looked so promising... BTW I think that for this result I must thank not only the senile old fools from the FIA, but also to all morons who wanted more for WINNING, WINNING, WINNING, ignoring the hard fought and deserved titles of drivers like Nelson Piquet and Keke Rosberg. You got what you wanted.
Congratulations.

[BTCC2]

For the first time in 13 years, i will not be following F1 this season due to this.

[janneppi]

Very silly idea indeed.

[Knock-on]

Dumbing F1 down even more. Thanks Bernie! :rolleye:

I think you mean MAX?

This is good news for McLaren.

With the old system, they might have been out of it by race 5 but if they just use 1 engine while they get the Aero sorted, they will have much fresher engines and a sorted car.

However, it's still a idea :(

[janneppi]

Does this mean if for example Button has most wins and is third in points he get's both places? :D

[F1boat]

I think you mean MAX?

This is good news for McLaren.

With the old system, they might have been out of it by race 5 but if they just use 1 engine while they get the Aero sorted, they will have much fresher engines and a sorted car.

However, it's still a idea :(

Well, but imagine Jenson winning 7 out of 10 races, then Brawn GP overtaken by 4 to 5 teams and then finishing 5th in points, but as a WDC, cause Kimi, Lewis, Massa and Fred have to say 4-5 wins. BTW, we will see an explosion of team orders because of these. Now all things about equality will be forgotten. Thanks to the senile old fools Max and Bernie and all who wanted more for the WINNERS.
I'll vomit.

[BTCC2]

The beginning of the end for F1.

[AndyRAC]

When oh when are these 2 idiots going to retire?

Simply unbelievable - I thought Bernie was just sabre rattling - now this. It just takes the biscuit.
So the 3 main FIA World Championships have different points systems (well 2 out of 3 do) - cool,....NOT!!

[F1boat]

Next year we will have last 3 races chase, like in NASCAR.

[Knock-on]

Well, but imagine Jenson winning 7 out of 10 races, then Brawn GP overtaken by 4 to 5 teams and then finishing 5th in points, but as a WDC, cause Kimi, Lewis, Massa and Fred have to say 4-5 wins. BTW, we will see an explosion of team orders because of these. Now all things about equality will be forgotten. Thanks to the senile old fools Max and Bernie and all who wanted more for the WINNERS.
I'll vomit.

I totally agree.

Your wing man (no longer can we call them 2nd drivers) will just halt the opposition until they try to get past and just nerf him. Easy to do legally and just takes them out of the game.

I didn't even know this proposal was on the cards and it's obvious that it was decided by Max and his cronies before today.

[jerrybruce]

You are all getting worked up over nothing. I would have expected at least one of you to realize that there is nothing wrong with the new system.

Let us suppose, for instance, that Hamilton is running away with the championship by winning all the races and that the season could be over just past midpoint. That would be a problem, right? Wrong. You have to understand the overall concept which includes the biggest and most significant rule in the new system.

In example, Hamilton cuts across a chicane at Spa. The stewards don't see it at the time but Ferrari files a complaint and two months later the stewards disqualify Hamilton and strip him of the win and points. No more problem. Championship still up for grabs.

[Robinho]

i hope the teams don't go for this, they have the power to put a stop to this. the fans voted against the medals system on the F1 official website, yet we still have to suffer the same foolish idea. they've got a year to come up with a better/workable version of the budget cap, but the points thing has to be stopped right now before it makes a mockery of the sport

i'm all for the winner being rewarded more, but not to this extent.

we are going to end up with ridculous situations where a driver could win when not having the points for the top 5 say, or where someone drops from the lead in the title race to nowhere when no longer the race winner leader.

into a season where it looks like up to 5 teams could win, therefore 10 drivers, someone with just 3 wins could take the title if its all shred out amongst the rest, unlikely yes, but so was the last lap of Brazil 2008

[Firstgear]

Most years the driver with the most wins also has the most points. So in that respect, this change will have no effect at all in most years. So not that big a deal in that respect.

What I don't like is that it almost forces the teams choose a #1 driver right from the start of the season. People are saying that if this system were in effect last year Massa would've won. I disagree. I believe that if this system were in effect last year, Kimi would've been favoured over Massa from the start of the season, and Massa wouldn't have been given the chance of taking wins/points off of Kimi.

I see more #1/#2 drivers right from the start with this system, and more wingman tactics as well. Both negative situations, in my view.

[ioan]

I think you mean MAX?


You think what you want.

I meant Bernie, you now the white haired dwarf who came with the medal ideas and how the championship should be decided on wins and not points.

[cynisca]

I don't know if I should be happy about that or not?!

The new points system is okay but that the driver who wins the most GP will earn the world title, I think it's a little bit tricky.

[F1boat]

You think what you want.

I meant Bernie, you now the white haired dwarf who came with the medal ideas and how the championship should be decided on wins and not points.

Both are to blame, both need to go now. I wonder whether the EU must not try to interfere with the dictators who run the sport federations.

[ArrowsFA1]

So, essentially the FIA have accepted FOM/Bernie's idea of medals without actually introducing medals. They've kept the current points system, but that will be by-passed by the number of wins when it comes to deciding the WDC.

Essentially Max doesn't want to be seen to be accepting Bernie or FOTA's ideas, so he comes up with this...this...this...mish-mash-mess :rolleyes:

[pino]

Very very bad idea :down: what was wrong with the : 12 - 9 - 7 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 suggested by FOTA ? :confused:

[Robinho]

Very very bad idea :down: what was wrong with the : 12 - 9 - 7 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 suggested by FOTA ? :confused:

nothing, except it was suggested by FOTA and the Max and Bernie show will not accept anything that comes from FOTA

[wedge]

Absolute bunch of jokers running the sport. When someone dominates F1 in the near future a la Schumi you can bet all except the final race will become meaningless.

[El Sween]

That's it i'm done. Stupid gimmick.

[ArrowsFA1]

Explaining how someone wins the WDC has just become a bit like an explaination of cricket:

You have two sides, one out in the field and one in. Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out. When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side thats been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out. Sometimes you get men still in and not out. When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in. There are two men called umpires who stay all out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out. When both sides have been in and all the men have out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game!

[UltimateDanGTR]

so let me get this straight, the current points system will still be in place, except that instead of who gets the most points wins the WC, the driver with most wins. hooray I got there!

This will almost garuntee a ferrari driver crowned champion, btu that is the FIA's (Ferraris immediate assistance) job!

[UltimateDanGTR]

Sorry for posting again, but ive had more thoughts.

I can understand why the most wins system would be good if the title race was close and the cars were evenly matched, it would be all or nothing. however, if one team are too good then it will become a procession and will probably become very dull indeed. And because Ferrari seem to be superior this season, they will undoubtably have one of their drivers win the WC.

Im glad the constructors championship is the same though, otherwise ferrari might as well moon walk their way to the WC.

It could be really exciting this new system, or totally the opposite, and 2002 all over again. If we do have a procession season in the next few years, as long as its not Ferrari dominating, I expect the system to be scrapped.

well have to see

[acorn]

not likely i know but.....the season could be won by the end of the second race in theory.

same driver wins first TWO races and parks it for the rest of the season. all other races won by different drivers(max -ONE each).

[UltimateDanGTR]

yes you are right, not likely!

[71minus2]

i cant wait to see what will happen if

1. Lewis wins the first 5 races,
2. Other teams win the next 7 meaning a Ferrari driver cant win the WDC
3. Ferrari win the last 3 or 4 races but have 2nd or 3rd places in each of the preceding races and lead the championship by a country mile a-la old points system.

An extreme forecast i agree BUT it may happen, especially with the myriad of rule and aero changes this season.

If a scenario like this does play out, can you see the FIA (Ferrari Internal Affairs) keeping their new wins only point system? No, me either.

Dangerous to play this card with so many unknowns. If they were to introduce it, at least see how 2009 rules and regs work.

[BTCC2]

But still possible, and the fact that it is possible for that to happen is an absolute joke.

[Tazio]

I woke up sick to my stomach today, and I didn't know why.

Now I do. I was really looking forward to the season and now I wonder if I should care at all

3-17-09 could be known as the day F1 died.I must say this blindsided me What do they plan on calling this new sreies?




This will almost garuntee a ferrari driver crowned champion btu that is the FIA's (Ferraris immediate assistance) job! How on gods green earth do figure this? If you said it helped Ferrari in the WCC I could understand your weak whinny complaint, as in a situation where you have equal cars Ferrari may have an advatage because they can afford two top drivers! Whoever wins the most races wins the WDC I don't like it but please do enlighten me how the FIA disadvantages other teams in regard to the WDC
That arguement is worthless, and weak.

What I want to know is what is to stop a team from using 1st or 2nd race engines every race untill they have clinched the title, and then take the penaty for the last 7 races? This scheme is doomed to failiar!

[harsha]

thanks for ruining F1

[Storm]

I don't think its a bad thing this season as it is still a bit unpredictable, unless one team completely dominates and one driver in particular. (e.g Hamilton)

Although a simpler solution to increasing over-taking or avoiding conservative driving after final pit stops would be going back to the 10-6-4-3-2-1 point system or tweaking it to be 10-7-5 etc..

[ChrisS]

not likely i know but.....the season could be won by the end of the second race in theory.

same driver wins first TWO races and parks it for the rest of the season. all other races won by different drivers(max -ONE each).

No it cant be won by the second race, the earliest it can be won is past the half way point, so for 2009 if a driver wins the first 9 races

In your scenario the final race of the season will have 15 drivers fighting for the championship.

[AndyRAC]

Explaining how someone wins the WDC has just become a bit like an explaination of cricket:

You have two sides, one out in the field and one in. Each man that's in the side that's in goes out, and when he's out he comes in and the next man goes in until he's out. When they are all out, the side that's out comes in and the side thats been in goes out and tries to get those coming in, out. Sometimes you get men still in and not out. When a man goes out to go in, the men who are out try to get him out, and when he is out he goes in and the next man in goes out and goes in. There are two men called umpires who stay all out all the time and they decide when the men who are in are out. When both sides have been in and all the men have out, and both sides have been out twice after all the men have been in, including those who are not out, that is the end of the game!

Very good!!

Still can't get my head around this, especially as the Constructors appears to stay as it was. This is just a nonsense, a right mish-mash - 2 different ways of scoring the 2 Championships - doesn't make sense. Then again, when has anything from the FiA made sense?
Something else I don't like - while I am completely against the new scoring system - the sudden lateness of the rule change, here we are, 12 days to go - and this is announced. It should come into force from next year, if anything. Teams have designed their cars, I would suspect for ongoing development - were this is possible. Yet, it would make sense to have the cars as quick as possible, earlier in the season - to rack up early wins and get a jump on the opposition.
The whole thing stinks!!

[thegreytist]

No it cant be won by the second race, the earliest it can be won is past the half way point, so for 2009 if a driver wins the first 9 races

In your scenario the final race of the season will have 15 drivers fighting for the championship.

Well if that happens the points system would have made it more exciting. Of course it's not though.

It seems that FOTA is not happy with the FIA and I wonder, could they break away from the FIA in the future?

[THE_LIBERATOR]

I understand that they want to show a lack of sentimentality, or nostalgia to prove they are not old. However like one lap qualifying, or indeed 3 stint qualifying, I feel this shake up is anti-racing spirit. The only plus now is that their reign of terror is finite. Then perhaps we can get back to pure racing weekends on proper tracks.

[woody2goody]

I woke up sick to my stomach today, and I didn't know why.

Now I do. I was really looking forward to the season and now I wonder if I should care at all

3-17-09 could be known as the day F1 died.

That sums up exactly how I feel, except minus the sick feeling (having said that, it might be round the corner lol).

WHY THE HELL, with the closest pre-season possibly in the history of the sport, are they doing this to us all?????

I know we don't know the order of things come Melbourne, but especially with the level of competitiveness shown by all the teams, it will now be conceivable that 3 wins could decide the championship.

So with the points standings remaining, we could see someone 50 points ahead of everyone else, but with two wins, and the champion could have three wins and about 50 points compared to the 'points leader''s 100+. In theory if someone has a great car on the tight tracks, Monaco, Abu Dhabi, Melbourne, Singapore, Valencia, they could win 3 or 4 of those races and NOT EVEN SCORE IN ALL THE OTHERS and win the title with what is essentially 30 or 40 points.

This has the potential to ruin F1 history, and strip it of even more of it's credibility, much of which had been restored with two great seasons in 07 and 08.

To add to the circus even more will be when the standings are published and the 'champ' is half way down them. I'd like to see Bernie justify that one.

[harvick#1]

absolutely a stupid and horrible point system. wtg F1, guess your just trying to kill yourselves off

[UltimateDanGTR]

I must say this blindsided me What do they plan on calling this new sreies?



How on gods green earth do figure this? If you said it helped Ferrari in the WCC I could understand your weak whinny complaint, as in a situation where you have equal cars Ferrari may have an advatage because they can afford two top drivers! Whoever wins the most races wins the WDC I don't like it but please do enlighten me how the FIA disadvantages other teams in regard to the WDC
That arguement is worthless, and weak.

What I want to know is what is to stop a team from using 1st or 2nd race engines every race untill they have clinched the title, and then take the penaty for the last 7 races? This scheme is doomed to failiar!

If Ferrari turn out to be good then with two top drivers they are going to win most races arent they? therefore rendering it impossible for anyone else to win the drivers championship. ;) Although with a top team like Ferrari (who I respect, Im just a little bitter over this FIA-ferrari relationship that seems to me to have developed) you should expect ferrari drivers to always be in with a shout, which is fair enough. I conceede there are 2 sides to this argument though, the other one being that if Ferrari made a better car then they would win the the championship anyway. Im not getting into an argument here ;)
And I wasnt whining by the way, I was making an observation. ;)

lets not turn this into an argument and act like football hooligans :) Lets just agree to disagree :)

[greencroft]

Just checked the date and can't believe it's NOT April 1st.

What are they thinking of?

This is such a bad move by FIA. It will be interesting to hear what the teams and drivers have to say on the matter.

[emporer_k]

:mad:

Havn't they ever heared the phrase "if it aint broke, don't fix it"



And the teams have probarbly allready worked out a way around the budget cap.

[woody2goody]

:mad:

Havn't they ever heared the phrase "if it aint broke, don't fix it"



And the teams have probarbly allready worked out a way around the budget cap.

Obviously not. Although Bernie's probably bitter because he is a big Massa fan. He said numerous times that Felipe deserves a championship.

Seriously though, someone up there said that the fans loved last season. For God's sake the title was decided on THE LAST DAMN CORNER of the season and they're changing it??!?!?!?!?!?

Oh dear is all I can say...

[Nikki Katz]

I really hate this new rule. The 12-9-7 points system sounded fine to me, I just don't like that a driver can win half the races and not bother to take part in the other half and still end up champion.

[V12]

The only possible argument I can think of against 12-9-7 is the fact it might skew long-term points stats, but that is immediately invalidated by the fact that before 1991 you only got 9 points for a win, and indeed it was 8 points in the 50s, 12-9-7 is a natural progression of that, offering more incentive for winning the race while awarding the top eight points rather than the top six (something I believe is essential in this era of ultra-reliability).

Boneheaded idea, and I hope it gets quickly consigned to the scrap-heap, I won't hold my breath though...

[AndyRAC]

Playing Devil's (or Bernie's )Advocate - it's to encourage racing and overtaking.
Fine - make the gap between 1st & 2nd bigger. It just doesn't reward consistency. It would be like, in Football, making the top scorers the Champions - regardless of how many wins/losses they had. Utter madness.
I was actually looking forward to this season, with so many questions, issues, etc

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I don't think it will make all that much difference. We might get a few more brave moves at the front, and as a result more incidents at the front.

Lets just wait and see how it works out before we judge it. :)

[F1boat]

Fine - make the gap between 1st & 2nd bigger. It just doesn't reward consistency. It would be like, in Football, making the top scorers the Champions - regardless of how many wins/losses they had. Utter madness.


Well said, good example.

[briggs'mechanic]

GREAT was really looking forward to this season but thanks to King Bernie he has just killed the whole idea of F1.

so we can have a driver finish first in 10 races and not finish any other races an be a "champion" then a high points scorer with 9 wins and loads of podium finishes and finishing every race and not win a bean..

Well done Bernie, thats the last time I fill out a F1 fan survey cause they obviously don't care what we all think..

lets see how many other Teams quit the sport now - Toyota, BMW, Renault??????

[Brown, Jon Brow]

GREAT was really looking forward to this season but thanks to King Bernie he has just killed the whole idea of F1.

so we can have a driver finish first in 10 races and not finish any other races an be a "champion" then a high points scorer with 9 wins and loads of podium finishes and finishing every race and not win a bean..

Well done Bernie, thats the last time I fill out a F1 fan survey cause they obviously don't care what we all think..

lets see how many other Teams quit the sport now - Toyota, BMW, Renault??????

Is this really likely to happen though?? I think not. ;)

[Daniel]

Well at least the WRC will no longer be the most mismanaged FIA series and I can change my signature to something which will make fun of F1 rather than the WRC :D

[UltimateDanGTR]

Dont worry daniel I like your current sig.....I like murder she wrote as well!

Boy, Im sad............

[VkmSpouge]

This new points system isn't as bad as the medal system but that is like saying getting a cold isn't as bad as catching the flu; it's still crap. Frankly I liked the teams' proposal for their points system which (for once) seemed an entirely sensible proposition, instead we end up with this.

[DexDexter]

I don't think it will make all that much difference. We might get a few more brave moves at the front, and as a result more incidents at the front.

Lets just wait and see how it works out before we judge it. :)

It's a disaster, we don't need to see how it works. With this rule being second or third is now basically same as retirement at least for the people fighting for the championship.

[AndyRAC]

Well at least the WRC will no longer be the most mismanaged FIA series and I can change my signature to something which will make fun of F1 rather than the WRC :D

Don't worry, it won't be long before that situation is reversed...... ;)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

It's a disaster we don't need to see how it works. With this rule being second or third is now basically same as retirement at least for the people fighting for the championship.

But drivers will know that more points will be better for them if the number of wins are tied at the end of the season.

You could just scrap a points system altogether and drivers would still want to beat each other..

[Daniel]

Don't worry, it won't be long before that situation is reversed...... ;)
I don't see how the WRC could be managed any worse but we shall see ;)

[DexDexter]

But drivers will know that more points will be better for them if the number of wins are tied at the end of the season.

You could just scrap a points system altogether and drivers would still want to beat each other..

Yep, but if you don't have that many wins say in the middle of the season and someone else does have a lot of victories, your podium finishes are totally worthless, except for the constructors, but the drivers don't care about that.

[jonny hurlock]

the wrost idea ever! think about what if this system was active in 02 he would have won it in Austria that year, the fota point system would have worked better imo

[Dank Bank]

Someone above mentioned that a team with a good car on the tight street circuits could actually win the title without scoring any points at the faster tracks. If this system remains in place after this year, I don't see any reason that the slower teams won't put everything into their street race package and next to nothing on faster tracks, essentially creating a situation where teams literally are not competing in almost half the races. This is Armageddon.

And the timing! 12 days? Seriously? Has any sport ever changed their formula for determining a champion less than two weeks before a season starts? What a curveball to throw at everyone who is looking for sponsorship and to any manufacturers considering withdrawing.

Nigel Mansell is eating his words today I'd imagine, Lewis just became the last legitimate champion.

[Blancvino]

Anybody else think there might be some team orders to block instituted? Maybe a slight clip that cuts down a tire, "sorry Chap, my bad!".

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Someone above mentioned that a team with a good car on the tight street circuits could actually win the title without scoring any points at the faster tracks. If this system remains in place after this year, I don't see any reason that the slower teams won't put everything into their street race package and next to nothing on faster tracks, essentially creating a situation where teams literally are not competing in almost half the races. This is Armageddon.

.

This would be an interesting situation. IMHO it would be good to see different cars at the front on different tracks.

[Dave B]

STUPID IDEA!

Too angry and busy to post a considered reply at the moment, but I'll be back.

[tdb]

So the age old motorsport saying "in order to finish first, first you have to finish" now needs changing to "win 9 and then don't bother"

Well, i guiess it will cut costs loads, as soon as the maths are done, nobody needs to turn up! the Teams will save millions and the fans won't need to buy tickets,

[Brown, Jon Brow]

It seems that I am the only person here who is indifferent to this change :s

[Shifter]

So the age old motorsport saying "in order to finish first, first you have to finish" now needs changing to "win 9 and then don't bother"

Oh great how many times this year are we going to hear about a certain driver being "x wins away from that magic number of 9 wins".

[maximilian]

I am not a fan of this idea, as the championship has always been decided by points, and there was never anything wrong with that simple concept. It worked.

You can gripe all you want about this, chances are it may not make that much difference in the end - the extreme scenarios mentioned here before won't happen.

One very real danger I see here, though, is - that it may result in more team orders. Say for example, Kovalainen is having a great weekend... starts from pole, dominates the race, leading Hamilton by 20 seconds, never in danger of losing the win... while a team previously may have bit the bullet and let their #2 win one they deserve (after all their #1 is still scoring loads of points as well in 2nd place), now they might think twice about "suddenly calling Kovalainen in the pits to replace a slowly deflating tyre", etc. :( in order for the #1 to get that all-important win in the championship race.

That said, FWIW, I always thought Didier Pironi should have been the 1982 champion! :D

[Sonic]

WTF!?!?!?!

Total frak - I'm soooooo fed up with F1 right now. LEAVE WELL ENOUGH ALONE YOU FRAKING MORONS!

Ok going to calm down now.

[tinchote]

You can gripe all you want about this, chances are it may not make that much difference in the end - the extreme scenarios mentioned here before won't happen.

Likely, but one cannot design a set of rules based on the fact that it is "unlikely" that they will fail completely.

And talking about chances, the chance of having a title decider at the last race (as in the last two seasons and several before) will certainly be less now.



That said, FWIW, I always thought Didier Pironi should have been the 1982 champion! :D

And the 1982 season shows you exactly why this is madness.

I have been feeling estranged from F1 more and more during the last 6 years, and this is probably the final blow :mark:

[jedii]

max you are a moronic twat bernie just retire/die please before there are no fans left

[jens]

I agree with the main negative reactions in this thread.

The most bizarre part of this rule is that we have got two systems, which will be used at once. Both count at the same time... or don't count either. It will make following F1 only more complicated for fans. It will be odd to look at the point standings after races, which we are used to do, but suddenly realise that the leader isn't the WDC leader at all, but the fifth man is :crazy: (who has got a few wins, but got into trouble in most races). Besides points it's needed to start counting wins too. Wasn't FIA's goal to make racing more understandable and fan-friendly?

[DexDexter]

So the age old motorsport saying "in order to finish first, first you have to finish" now needs changing to "win 9 and then don't bother"

Well, i guiess it will cut costs loads, as soon as the maths are done, nobody needs to turn up! the Teams will save millions and the fans won't need to buy tickets,

I hope the teams are as angry as most people here, they could go on strike and decide not to run in Melbourne before the rule is changed.

On a lighter note...We Finns got the saying above slightly differently: in order to finish first, first you have to be Finnish :)

[cynisca]

They introduce the currently system because of Ferrari's domination in 2002, and now, they introduce a new system because Ferrari didn't win the championship in 2008. :p

[Andrewmcm]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73754 - I smell trouble ahead.....

[DazzlaF1]

Well Bernie's got his way, albeit partly, but its an idea im in favour of.

I've always been inf avour of the driver who wins the most races winning the title but i've always liked to see the efforts of smaller teams get rewarded which is why the medal system was in my view ridiculous.

This idea i think will work well

[Rollo]

Applying this to 1992:
The 1992 season was finished after Round 9. All teams should have just given up and gone home, because there was no point competing for anything beyond that point.

If anything, it might be likely to drive even more teams out of the sport. What chance do Toyota, BMW, Red Bull, Torro Rosso, Williams or Force India have? This means to say that the regulators have basically ruled them out of the championship.

[jens]

Actually the poll is a bit flawed. Points system itself hasn't changed, we've just got an extra clause. :p :

[DazzlaF1]

Applying this to 1992:
The 1992 season was finished after Round 9. All teams should have just given up and gone home, because there was no point competing for anything beyond that point.

If anything, it might be likely to drive even more teams out of the sport. What chance do Toyota, BMW, Red Bull, Torro Rosso, Williams or Force India have? This means to say that the regulators have basically ruled them out of the championship.

Most of the teams you've listed mate probably value their position in the constructors championship more, and according tot he meeting, that title has been unaffected

[Tazio]

If Ferrari turn out to be good then with two top drivers they are going to win most races arent they? therefore rendering it impossible for anyone else to win the drivers championship. Gee let me think about that...... Anthony Davidson wins 1 ;) Kimi wins 5 Massa wins 5 and Rubins/jenson/Fred/your mother/or any other driver wins 6 how could a Ferrari driver win the WDC?


lets not turn this into an argument and act like football hooligans :) Lets just agree to disagree :)
I propose a steel cage match! a knock down, gouge your eyes out, no holds barred, schorched earth blood-bath :p :
after which we can eat, and read! :laugh:

[Rollo]

If I was a prospective team trying to win the title, I'd seriously consider throwing absolutely everything at certain races and bugger all else. Literally run the loud pedal through the floor and trying to make the engine last that race only.
If you've managed to secure a win, then it doesn't matter what your opponents do, so you may as well try to destroy the car in the process.

[AndyRAC]

Gee let me think about that...... Anthony Davidson wins 1 ;) Kimi wins 5 Massa wins 5 and Rubins/jenson/Fred/your mother/or any other driver wins 6 how could a Ferrari driver win the WDC?

I propose a steel cage match! a knock down, gouge your eyes out, no holds barred, schorched earth blood-bath :p :
after which we can eat, and read! :laugh:

Ah, but how do you decide who wins?

Last man standing, most limbs left, etc try asking Bernie - he'll have the answer... ;)

[Easy Drifter]

After 50 odd years of following F1 ------- Bye Bye

[Daniel]

It seems that I am the only person here who is indifferent to this change :s
Your mum's indifferent :p

[jjanicke]

The biggest problem I see with the newly proposed system is that the WDC will most likely be over long before the last race. If you have a 2 win lead going into the final, done. If you have a 3 win lead going into the 2nd to last race, done. etc, ....

:bored:

[jjanicke]

I guess we will just have to wait and see. But from the smell of things this is a bad decision.

[Jake Stephens]

Sure lads look what they did to the WRC now this! Its a shame, i wont be following F1 anymore. Guys, dont support this farce, is there some way we can fight this or is there any point? Congratulations Bernie and Max, you both define what is wrong with motorsport as a whole and have killed F1. RIP Formula 1, 1950 - 2008.

[jso1985]

It seems that I am the only person here who is indifferent to this change :s

Try to see it this way and keep indifferent after it.

When after years and years we might finally have some more close racing and more overtaking, just think that from now on fighting for 2nd, 3rd and so on has become useless. let's even think the team's pace will remain the same as last year and only 2 teams fight for the championship. and in one race Raikkonen leads Hamilton by 12 secs and Hamilton leads Massa by 0,7 secs will Massa even bother to overtake Hamilton? NO! cause that extra 2 points won't mean sh..., and it get's worse if the pre-season testing is an accurate prediction and let's say Ferrari, McLaren, Toyota, Renault and Brawn are top teams, in such close conditions fighting for that extra point 5th place might gave you the championship later but no with this sytem you don't need to bother... if you find yourself more than 10 secs from the lead after the first quarter you can just go the pits and park the car...

Also take count that 2nd drivers will happen way sooner now, if let's say by round 5 Hamilton has won 2 races, Barrichello another 2 and Button the other one, don't expect Button getting any support for the rest of the season if Barrichello wins round 6.

still indifferent?

[Tazio]

Try to see it this way and keep indifferent after it.

When after years and years we might finally have some more close racing and more overtaking, just think that from now on fighting for 2nd, 3rd and so on has become useless. let's even think the team's pace will remain the same as last year and only 2 teams fight for the championship. and in one race Raikkonen leads Hamilton by 12 secs and Hamilton leads Massa by 0,7 secs will Massa even bother to overtake Hamilton? NO! cause that extra 2 points won't mean sh..., and it get's worse if the pre-season testing is an accurate prediction and let's say Ferrari, McLaren, Toyota, Renault and Brawn are top teams, in such close conditions fighting for that extra point 5th place might gave you the championship later but no with this sytem you don't need to bother... if you find yourself more than 10 secs from the lead after the first quarter you can just go the pits and park the car...

Also take count that 2nd drivers will happen way sooner now, if let's say by round 5 Hamilton has won 2 races, Barrichello another 2 and Button the other one, don't expect Button getting any support for the rest of the season if Barrichello wins round 6.

still indifferent?Two things
1) I never thought much of LdM when Brawn and Todt were running the team.
In fact on this forum I referred to him as simply a front man.
Having said that and having to read moronic posts about what the FIA stands for It is contrasted by this
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73754
A statement from FOTA chairman Luca di Montezemolo said: "With regard to the decisions taken today by the FIA World Council, FOTA would like to express its disappointment and concern at the fact that these have been taken in a unilateral manner.

"The framework of the regulations as defined by the FIA, to be applicable as from 2010, runs the risk of turning on its head the very essence of Formula 1 and the principles that make it one of the most popular and appealing sports.

"Given the timeframe and the way in which these modifications were decided upon, we feel it is necessary to study closely the new situation and to do everything, especially in these difficult times, to maintain a stable framework for the regulations without continuous upheaval, that can be perplexing and confusing for car manufacturers, teams, the public and sponsors."

Do these words sound like those of a man that has the FIA in his pocket?

He has the greatest auto racing marque in his pocket. Please try not to get the two confused!

2) This ruling is in complete opposition to the new engine rules. In less getting a championship contender to park his car befor the first scheduled pitstop because of a puncture at some place like Spa ocuring just past the pit in, is what they mean by engine cost cutting :confused:

[jjanicke]

Try to see it this way and keep indifferent after it.

When after years and years we might finally have some more close racing and more overtaking, just think that from now on fighting for 2nd, 3rd and so on has become useless. let's even think the team's pace will remain the same as last year and only 2 teams fight for the championship. and in one race Raikkonen leads Hamilton by 12 secs and Hamilton leads Massa by 0,7 secs will Massa even bother to overtake Hamilton? NO! cause that extra 2 points won't mean sh..., and it get's worse if the pre-season testing is an accurate prediction and let's say Ferrari, McLaren, Toyota, Renault and Brawn are top teams, in such close conditions fighting for that extra point 5th place might gave you the championship later but no with this sytem you don't need to bother... if you find yourself more than 10 secs from the lead after the first quarter you can just go the pits and park the car...

Also take count that 2nd drivers will happen way sooner now, if let's say by round 5 Hamilton has won 2 races, Barrichello another 2 and Button the other one, don't expect Button getting any support for the rest of the season if Barrichello wins round 6.

still indifferent?

All fair points, however......

There's is a handsome sum ($$$'s) associated with the pecking order of the WCC. I doubt any team would just throw those points (and related $$$'s) away. Now, that doesn't mean teams will push their drivers to pass during the last stint of the races either.

As far as the WDC is concerned, if a driver can stay within a shot of # of wins during the season (i.e. within 1 race win coming into the last round of the championship) then points are extremely important. If the point gap is too large a win won't matter.

The season would have been very similar last year. It would have come down the final race, with the only difference being Massa taking home the crown based on # of wins.

The new awarding system would have forced Mclaren & Lewis to step up and race for the victory, unlike last season where all he had to be was 5th.

It doesn't sound like a great system, but let's see how it turns out before condemning it. (although why we had to change is beyond me).

[LeonBrooke]

I think there should be some middle-ground - for example if the driver in P2 in the points table has more wins than the driver ahead, they should be champion but only if they are within a certain range of points - say ten. if they're fewer than ten points behind, they're champion, if they're more than ten behind, the points leader is champ.

[Roamy]

After 50 odd years of following F1 ------- Bye Bye

why are you bitter - do you think driver should coast and collect the championship??

[AussieV8]

Trust the powers that be to completely stuff it up. If they had to change it, what was wrong with 12, 9, 7. ie: the alternative proposal. We are looking at what would potentially be one of the most exciting seasons in F1 and they do this.

I really hope now that someone dominates the number of wins in the first half of the year and walks away with the championship, but with other drivers finishing in positions that would have kept them in contention under the points system.

This would really highlight what a stupid decision this is and we can get back to a real sport in 2010.

[F1boat]

why are you bitter - do you think driver should coast and collect the championship??

No, but consistence in all sports is as important as winning. This change is artificial and dumb. It makes the playoffs in NASCAR look like a sensible decision of people, who defend pure racing.

[wmcot]

So now we'll all follow the WCC instead of the WDC since that will be where the true champion is? Teams can save money by doing away with high-priced drivers and concentrate on the WCC with two "no-name" drivers! :(

[Donney]

Now if I were a lesser team, I would prepare my car to be especially good at some tracks, fast ones for example, try to win those races and I might have a championship winner with a car which can only be raced at some selected circuits....


Preposterous system.

[ArrowsFA1]

A statement from FOTA chairman Luca di Montezemolo said: "With regard to the decisions taken today by the FIA World Council, FOTA would like to express its disappointment and concern at the fact that these have been taken in a unilateral manner.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73754

I think this is the crux of the matter. Note that FOTA does not express surprise at the unilateral manner of the decisions. They, and we, have become entirely accustomed to this being the way the FIA operates. I think that the formation of FOTA was a result of frustration at the way the sport is being run in the hope that it could affect change. Max's recent pronouncements have made it clear that as long as he remains FIA President nothing will change other than the "continuous upheaval" referred to by FOTA.

The FIA change to the points system has nothing to do with what is good for the sport IMHO. It is simply an exercise of power i.e. a means of showing that despite the unity of the teams, despite the constructive proposals put forward by FOTA, the FIA rules F1 and F1 will continue to be run in this way for as long as Max decides to stay on.

Whether FOTA, or anyone, can influence how long that is is unlikely, particularly given the FIA structure, which was...yes, you've guessed it...put in place by the current President.

Has a FOTA-led breakaway series just become more likely?

[Mark]

I don't object to the idea of a positional based system but they should have one or the other. Entirely based on finishing positions, or entirely based on points, not both :s .

[Robinho]

online petition here

http://www.gopetition.co.uk/petitions/keep-the-points-system.html

don't know if there are any other out there, but i think we need to do something to show how unpopular this decision is, i've seen very very few message anywhere showing support for this one,

has anyone else got a link to a petition or a link to a good site to start one ourselves

[Mark]

If you do sign make sure you don't put your email address or use one you don't mind spam going to. Online petitions are notorious for just being email harvesters.

[PolePosition_1]

I was busy yesterday, so when a colleague said the points system had changed to encourage wins, I just assumed that it meant the FOTA proposal had been accepted. As I thought the only sensible changes would be the FOTA proposal or keeping it as it is.

When reading up about it, I honestly couldn't believe it, when I told my brother, also a massive F1 fan, he thought I was pulling his leg.

I honestly think that this is an awful season. Where it shifts the emphasis on maybe an individual 6 odd races a year, rather than a whole season.

And with the points being kept as well, it just makes things complicated.

Considering the quality of racing we've witnessed since 2005, I don't quite understand, I think when there was a real problem with lack of racing, and lack of overtaking, the problems were being addressed, but I think they've now knee-jerked a reaction, which is a shame, as it has distracted everyone from the anticipation of the start of a new season.

Regarding the budget, again, totally turning upside down the principles of F1 which has been at the foreground of what makes it was it is for over half a century, has now totally been changed. I'm hoping that it'll be reversed before 2010 when it comes into effect, and that its a ploy to make sure budget cuts proposed by FOTA happen.

However, I fear that this decision is much to do with a war between FOM and FOTA, and with FOTA being so successful in its short history, they're trying to show who is boss, and maybe even distract them from their pursuit of bigger slice of the money.

In essence, FOTA being such a success could well be the downfall of F1.

[PolePosition_1]

Who are the 5 people who said they like the system?

[jens]

If I was a prospective team trying to win the title, I'd seriously consider throwing absolutely everything at certain races and bugger all else. Literally run the loud pedal through the floor and trying to make the engine last that race only.
If you've managed to secure a win, then it doesn't matter what your opponents do, so you may as well try to destroy the car in the process.

What should be taken into account is that the WCC will continually be decided in the same way we have been used to. Hence I don't think racing-wise we will see much difference this year (drivers still need to go for points to try to secure as high placing in WCC for their team as possible).

This is where the system is rather contradictory. We are using multiple systems at the same time, which aim to affect racing in a different way. ?!?!

[Hawkmoon]

I don't know what everybody's complaining about. We, the fans, are just as much to blame for this as the FIA. The fans have been going on about overtaking and how crap the points system is for years. The FIA goes as does something about both and all they get is more whinging. You can't have it both ways people.

That's not to say that I agree with this system. I don't. Personally, I didn't think there was anything wrong with the 10-6-4-3-2-1 system that was in place until 2003. In fact I think I've disagreed with just about every change the FIA has made to the sporting regualtions since 2003. All-in-all I don't see this change as being much different to the adoption of the 10-8-6-etc system we have now.

Sure a champion could be crowned with less points than the runner up but we've had that happen before. Prost beat Senna in 1988 but lost the title because of the "drop your worst result" system in place at the time. This system isn't as bad as that one, not by a long shot.

I also think it won't be around for that long either. Much like 1 lap qualifying, this system has a used by date already stamped on the back.

[Garry Walker]

What a joke of a decision.

Mosley really needs to get hit by a car for doing this and Bernie should follow him.


Idiotic.

[Tazio]

I don't know what everybody's complaining about. We, the fans, are just as much to blame for this as the FIA. The fans have been going on about overtaking and how crap the points system is for years. The FIA goes as does something about both and all they get is more whinging. You can't have it both ways people.

That's not to say that I agree with this system. I don't. Personally, I didn't think there was anything wrong with the 10-6-4-3-2-1 system that was in place until 2003. In fact I think I've disagreed with just about every change the FIA has made to the sporting regualtions since 2003. All-in-all I don't see this change as being much different to the adoption of the 10-8-6-etc system we have now.

Sure a champion could be crowned with less points than the runner up but we've had that happen before. Prost beat Senna in 1988 but lost the title because of the "drop your worst result" system in place at the time. This system isn't as bad as that one, not by a long shot.

I also think it won't be around for that long either. Much like 1 lap qualifying, this system has a used by date already stamped on the back.Hawk I agree with almost every word you wrote, and for the same reasons. How many in the major sports in your country did a team run away with the championship relatively early! If you go back far enough in mine the real dogfights were the exception. (but more oftenly recolected) It didn't stop the true fans from watching the whole season. I've lived long enough to have witnessed TV ruin sports. Personally I don't give a rats @ss what they are pushing on the commercials because I know what I need without someone telling me. The bottom line here is the bottom line. It sickens me to here young adults refer to sports as being business first. Because thanks to them it will continue to be, and eventually the whole viewing public will believe that it always was that way. Have you seen the movie "Idiocracy" The only thing unrealistic about that movie is the future setting will not be that far in the future! What I am pissed off about is the timing of when they droped the bomb! Also as I stated yesterday or the day before how little F1 cares about the continuity of comparative accomplisment as in the point system tweak that came as aresult of Bernie panicikng. after a team had a season like the '27 Yankees! I'll get over it. I'll out live Bernie. And if things get really silly I'll watch my vids of races (comercial free) and get my fix that way, and through other inerests

[Dave B]

Stupid stupid stupid idea.

FOTA had a decent enough plan but oh no, the feckless FIA had to roll over and accept Bernie's "medal" idea. Please, for the love of god Max, just GO NOW.

There are so many drawbacks with this that I don't know where to begin. The last two seasons have produced nailbiting down-to-the-wire finishes, with three or four drivers in contention right up until the end, and in both years the championship was won by a single point. What was broken? Why start tampering?

Now, under this idiotic new system, what's to stop a driver who knows he's uncompetitive at a particular track from tooling around in the midfield - or even deliberately retiring - to conserve the engine life before blitzing the next race with the wick turned up? After all, it's only wins that count. Win six or seven races and the title's yours, regardless of how poorly you perform the rest of the season.

Look at last year: Kubica only won one race but becuase of his consistancy was in contention for the championship for most of the year. If these rules had been in place he would have stood no chance whatsoever. He would have been massively punished for "only" being able to win once and his impressive performance in the other races would have been worthless.

It also means that teams will be under pressure to decide on their number one driver at an earlier stage. If you're running one-two in a race your drivers would usually both score meaningful points, be it 10-8 or the mooted 12-9 or whatever. Instead, being 2nd is all but worthless.

I am so disappointed that this idiotic idea has been railroaded through thanks to the Max and Bernie show. It demonstrates nothing but contempt for hardcore fans and casual viewers alike.

[Mark]

Yep, and in 2007 Hamilton was in strong contention before he'd even won a race because he was consistently finishing in the points every race. Under this system, that won't matter at all.

[Dave B]

Oh, also, if this system was in place last year; Massa would have won the championship on a stewards' decision at Spa. :s

[Knock-on]

Oh, also, if this system was in place last year; Massa would have won the championship on a stewards' decision at Spa. :s

Which a cynic like me would say is what Max wants. The ability to greater control the F1 championship.

Last year, HK, SV and RK would have finished in the same position, only differentiated on countback with the strong performance by Nick being dismissed :crazy:

F1 this year has gone from what was shaping to be a stellar year to one of pure tactics and legal wrangleing. Improving drivers will be held back by team orders and people like Massa will not be allowed to shine as he did last year. Just when we were sooo close to getting an exciting prospect, it has been dashed by the Max and Bernie show.

There will be more collissions for the crash happy public but I suppose that's what Max and Bernie want to draw in the roadkill public. Drivers will know it's a or bust race and if they don't get the win, they might as well prang trying and take out an opponant.

[Tazio]

Oh, also, if this system was in place last year; Massa would have won the championship on a stewards' decision at Spa. :s Except if the system was in place the stewards would have had to think long and hard at that incident.
That brings up another flaw. Are we going to see every race where the protagonists have a racing incident taken to the supreme court!
The only thing I like abbout this rule is if anyone can benefit from it I think Fred is a good cadidate. He will have a dutiful wingman.
Plus more than any other driver He knows how to win races, and races in a pinch. The losers Button, Button, and Button :p :

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Stupid stupid stupid idea.

FOTA had a decent enough plan but oh no, the feckless FIA had to roll over and accept Bernie's "medal" idea. Please, for the love of god Max, just GO NOW.

There are so many drawbacks with this that I don't know where to begin. The last two seasons have produced nailbiting down-to-the-wire finishes, with three or four drivers in contention right up until the end, and in both years the championship was won by a single point. What was broken? Why start tampering?

Now, under this idiotic new system, what's to stop a driver who knows he's uncompetitive at a particular track from tooling around in the midfield - or even deliberately retiring - to conserve the engine life before blitzing the next race with the wick turned up? After all, it's only wins that count. Win six or seven races and the title's yours, regardless of how poorly you perform the rest of the season.

Look at last year: Kubica only won one race but becuase of his consistancy was in contention for the championship for most of the year. If these rules had been in place he would have stood no chance whatsoever. He would have been massively punished for "only" being able to win once and his impressive performance in the other races would have been worthless.

It also means that teams will be under pressure to decide on their number one driver at an earlier stage. If you're running one-two in a race your drivers would usually both score meaningful points, be it 10-8 or the mooted 12-9 or whatever. Instead, being 2nd is all but worthless.

I am so disappointed that this idiotic idea has been railroaded through thanks to the Max and Bernie show. It demonstrates nothing but contempt for hardcore fans and casual viewers alike.

It isn't worthless if the winner is disqualified or if the leader has a problem on the last lap.

[Knock-on]

Except if the system was in place the stewards would have had to think long and hard at that incident.
That brings up another flaw. Are we going to see every race where the protagonists have a racing incident taken to the supreme court!
The only thing I like abbout this rule is if anyone can benefit from it I think Fred is a good cadidate. He will have a dutiful wingman.
Plus more than any other driver He knows how to win races, and races in a pinch. The losers Button, Button, and Button :p :


You're making a rod for your own back big boy. I have your wager sitting right here in my back pocket :laugh:

Fred and Lewis will be winners in this as will Kimi I think. With Jenson, we will have to see as he has been less aggressive in the past to secure points and look at the bigger picture.

However, there is one good thing about the proposed system in that drivers cannot afford to do that in future but I think it will bring about many more negatives than positives. Ultimatly, the new system could make the championship a farce and a dangerous one at that.

[truefan72]

well, that does it for me.

i am officially done with F1

won't even bother to watch the races.

I'll see highlights here and there, but I am not going to watch a complete nonsense series where someone can win 5-6 races, do nothing the rest of the year and get crowned F1 champ.

I suppose the last 2 years were boring to the fans. simply stupid.

This is a knee jerk reaction to Hamilton winning the the WDC in the last race by coming in 5th...which is infinitely more exciting than s/one wrapping it up with 5 races to go.

As I said, I am off to do better things with my life than invest any more energy on this farce.

I truly feel sorry for Hamilton, massa, kimi, kubica, alonso, rosberg, and vettel, who will now have a distorted legacy based on the FIA stupidity.

so long folks

[ATF]

WORST IDEA EVER! As well as the championship potentially being decided a lot earlier, it also means teams will implement team orders a lot earlier. Are ferrari really going to allow kimi and massa to share wins?!

[Knock-on]

I truly feel sorry for Hamilton, massa, kimi, kubica, alonso, rosberg, and vettel, who will now have a distorted legacy based on the FIA stupidity.

so long folks


Don't panic mate.

With these idiotic rules and the current groundswell of unrest from the teams, something will have to give.

In theory, the FIA has a closed shop on global racing but with the main motoring clubs not being behind Max, WRC being in dissaray and F1 potentially breaking away, something will happen. Either F1 will be reborn outside the FIA which will lead to a war that Max can't win or Max will be ousted in a night of knives.

The only other option is that Max backs down......... Yeah, right :rolleyes:

[Tazio]

You're making a rod for your own back big boy. I have your wager sitting right here in my back pocket :laugh:

Fred and Lewis will be winners in this as will Kimi I think. With Jenson, we will have to see as he has been less aggressive in the past to secure points and look at the bigger picture.

However, there is one good thing about the proposed system in that drivers cannot afford to do that in future but I think it will bring about many more negatives than positives. Ultimatly, the new system could make the championship a farce and a dangerous one at that.As I wrote that I was thinking about our wager, Rubins could barely win at Ferrari ;) But of course he wasn't allowed to race :p : Two names I didn't mention you mentioned Lewis I'll buy that (although he may not even particpate in any races until Europe If McLaren holds form he'll just do practice If the track suits the car he may do qualifying. Then not race untill after the flyaways)Using a new engine at every race he wins eight in a row. How stupid would that make the rules look I think webber is in the Button catagory although that maybe a little unfair. And I Want to stick Vettel, and RK with the aforementioned winners.
BTW If you want out of our little wager I'll give you an escape clause :laugh:
I'm planning on landing quite softly with my golden parachute :)

[Stu_H]

online petition here

http://www.gopetition.co.uk/petitions/keep-the-points-system.html

don't know if there are any other out there, but i think we need to do something to show how unpopular this decision is, i've seen very very few message anywhere showing support for this one,

has anyone else got a link to a petition or a link to a good site to start one ourselves

This is the one you want, 7000 signatures and rising very rapidly...

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/cancel-the-fia-approved-wdc-selection-criteria-for-f1-world-championship-2009

[I am evil Homer]

Still at the least the stewards will have a busy year and we all know they usually make timely and correct decisions....wait, what....oh......... :(

[Tazio]

This is the one you want, 7000 signatures and rising very rapidly...

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/cancel-the-fia-approved-wdc-selection-criteria-for-f1-world-championship-2009

I signed it MR. T :)

[Knock-on]

BTW If you want out of our little wager I'll give you an escape clause :laugh:
I'm planning on landing quite softly with my golden parachute :)

If the car is as good as it looks, I see it being a close race between Rubins and Jenson but I'll wager my Golden Balls against your Golden Parachute that my boy finishes on top of RB anyday :D

Let battle commence :laugh:

(nice to have something lighthearted to look forward to amongst all this doom and gloom ;) )

[Simmi]

I dont even want to think about the implications of this that we are yet to see. Surely this effects almost every aspect of the rules and they way teams go about their weekends.

The teams dont want it.
The fans dont want it.

F1 just got raped end of story.

[patnicholls]

so we can have a driver finish first in 10 races and not finish any other races an be a "champion" then a high points scorer with 9 wins and loads of podium finishes and finishing every race and not win a bean..


Here's a good example from the world of bike racing as to why this new 'system' is a load of poo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Superbike_World_Championship_season

Using the 'most wins' system, the season is clearly over in mid-June due to Troy Bayliss having an insurmountable number of wins by that point. With the standard bike racing points system (25-20-16-13-11 then down to 1 for 15th place) it was one of the classic title duels going down to the last race of the season.

[I have posted this before, but it's a decent point I think]

[Wasted Talent]

You think what you want.

I meant Bernie, you now the white haired dwarf who came with the medal ideas and how the championship should be decided on wins and not points.

No wonder his wife left him !!!

Crap idea........

Drivers encouraged to go for the win, then get excluded for over optimistic overtaking attempts.....

Season could be over well before the end.........

"No team orders" will be an un-policeable farce....

I don't like Ferrari, but their dilemna is who to support as number one driver? Kimi and Massa scores 4 wins each (and loads of seconds etc), Hamilton 5, and Button 6 and lots of non-finishers, so Button 2009 Champion.....HANG ON I LIKE THIS IDEA !!!!

WT

[Sonic]

I've given it some thought and calmed down a bit since my last post.....thank the gods. Does anyone else think this might just be posturing by the FIA? Especially the stooooopid budget caps at 30 million.

They've done it before when trying to get the concorde agreement signed. Propose some completely BARMY rules; the teams go mental and unite under their common unhappiness and offer counter proposals which eventually boil down to something acceptable to both parties - except that the FIA always intended to end up with the deal that they ended up signing it was just all pollitical nonsense.

Or am I just sticking my fingers in my ears and ignoring the facts and my fave sport is being destroyed under my nose?

[Mark]

I've given it some thought and calmed down a bit since my last post.....thank the gods. Does anyone else think this might just be posturing by the FIA? Especially the stooooopid budget caps at 30 million.

They've done it before when trying to get the concorde agreement signed. Propose some completely BARMY rules; the teams go mental and unite under their common unhappiness and offer counter proposals which eventually boil down to something acceptable to both parties - except that the FIA always intended to end up with the deal that they ended up signing it was just all pollitical nonsense.

Or am I just sticking my fingers in my ears and ignoring the facts and my fave sport is being destroyed under my nose?

Yep, that's happened many times before! FIA propose something totally crazy, teams propose something less crazy. FIA gets exactly what it had wanted in the first place.

[Knock-on]

Well, it's not like the Max and Bernie show haven't got form ;)

However, I think that might be the case for the budget nonsense only as this points / win system is going through :(

[Big Ben]

the most stupid possibility: One drivers wins half+1 race and dnf the rest of them while another one wins the rest of them and finishes second in half + 1 races :laugh:

[Robinho]

...

Last year, HK, SV and RK would have finished in the same position, only differentiated on countback with the strong performance by Nick being dismissed :crazy: ...



heres another problem, actually they wouldn't have all finished in the same position, as they were 2nd or lower in the championship the wins don't matter, its still points, so in theory they were all in the same place, and Alonso for example, wouldn't have beaten Kubica, (which would have been a travestyy givem Alonso having a great final third of the season but a frankly shocking first 2 thirds, whilst Kubica raced his nuts off to get the positions he did in a car frankly not quite capable of winning)

so if we are struggling to understand the finer points, and lets face it we are the die hard portion of the F1 fan world, what hope the casual observer, who watches with passing interest, but doesn't immerse themselves in testing, politics, infighting, scandals and only watches for 2hrs on a sunday afternoon - they won't know whats going on

what i find more worrying is that Kubica was in with a shout with 2 races left last year, due to consitstency, and great driving to acheive teh positions he did, justly rewarded with a chance of the title, under the new rules he had no chance as with 2 races left the most he could acheive was 3 wins, and Hamilton and Massa had already beaten that - that is simply not right in a sport that measures itself over 18 or so races with positions being fought over throughout the field.

Bernie and Max seem to think this will improve the racing - if your behind and can't pass cos the cars are too closely matched to allow passing, or you are simply not faster, then you are not magically going to fight better for the lead under the new rules.

"IF" the new aero rules mean passing is easier, then we would see more passing for the lead anyweay, without the new points, cos drivers like to win, they'll always want to beat whoever is in front of them.

i do agree that the winner should be rewarded with a greater points disparity to 2nd, but that was all that was wrong, 12-8 instead of 10-8 would be fine, and the current system was brought in exactly to make the championships closer and extend the fight for longer, which is what it did.

[BTCC2]

I think the poll results speak volumes about this decision.

[maxmach]

This is totally arbitrary, and as mentioned, the poll's, which I'm sure are the same world over, speak for themselves. The driver with the most wins should get something, but this is too willy nilly. How about driver with the most wins at the end of the season gets 5 pts or 10 or whatever, a reward, a nudge, but not so end all.

[tstran17_88]

This is crazy...why are they trying to be like NASCAR?

[AndyL]

Here's a good example from the world of bike racing as to why this new 'system' is a load of poo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Superbike_World_Championship_season

Using the 'most wins' system, the season is clearly over in mid-June due to Troy Bayliss having an insurmountable number of wins by that point. With the standard bike racing points system (25-20-16-13-11 then down to 1 for 15th place) it was one of the classic title duels going down to the last race of the season.

[I have posted this before, but it's a decent point I think]

I think it would be an interesting exercise to do the same analysis for past F1 seasons - at what point the championship was wrapped up, vs. when it would have been wrapped up based on wins only. Perhaps someone already has.
It seems to me that whatever other outcomes it might have, this idea must surely lead to championships being closed out earlier in the season, especially when teams are not quite evenly matched.

[BobbyC]

This idea of determining the title by wins, then points in case of tie, is silly.

Driver A is an all or nothing driver; six wins, four crashes, and eight blown engines.

Driver B only wins one race, but has five seconds, five thirds, two fourths, two fifths, and two sixths, and one seventh.

Which driver deserves the title?

And unlike NASCAR, where the playoff seeding is determined by wins, consider Kyle Busch as "Exhibit A": Eight wins, but a playoff choke. Carl Edwards couldn't overcome two major mistakes despite winning nine. Jimmie Johnson won eight, but ran a nearly flawless playoff to win his title.

[PSfan]

Guess I'm the #77th against, big suprise :p :

For the first time... EVER... I can finaly see some connection to F1, and the koolaid drinking cult that markabilly keeps rambling on about. Clearly Max and Bernie are the cult leaders, and they have choosen now to commit F1 suicide.

Now I can come up with a couple theories why Bernie wanted to change the system. But what puzzles me is there was an article on speedtv suggesting that Bernie supported FOTA's points idea (I only read the headline, not the story...)So whats with the good cop bad cop routine that Max and Bernie are playing?

If there was any reason for those FOTA members to think twice about signing onto a new concorde, this would be it. And if they where smart, the would announce a FOTA champion... that would be the Driver with the most points at the end of the season regardless of wins, the members should make a pool and a trophy to go to the FOTA champion. They should also announce they are conducting a feasability study into the viability of their own series (broadcast partners, tracks, etc etc... ) for 2010, now is the time boys!

[Nikki Katz]

I'm starting to wonder if team orders could come into play to wrap up the championship incredibly early. If the Brawn drivers have a clear margin over the rest of the field until, say, they reach Europe, at which point Ferrari and maybe one or two other teams have caught up, then surely Brawn would want to hand all 3 victories to one driver rather than allow them to race and possibly have both drivers winning, as that would give them a much better shot at hanging onto a championship, much more so than if there was just a 2 point gap.

I hope that this rule will only be in place for one season, I know they can't overturn it mid-season and they're not going to before they've tested it, but the FIA have U-turned on quite a lot of things they've attempted to implement in the past.

[Dank Bank]

Oh, also, if this system was in place last year; Massa would have won the championship on a stewards' decision at Spa. :s


The fact that no one who makes the decisions thought this out that far or did and just ignored it is in my eyes the worst, most sickening thing about the whole ordeal.

Massa lost last year because of the failure of Ferrari at Hungary and Timo Glock slipping in the rain in Brazil. Hamilton got incredibly lucky last season and Massa was perhaps the more deserving driver but the fact is that he lost due to events that took place on the track. If this system had been in place it all comes down to interpretation of the rules and a boardroom meeting.

Now, a one-shot like Vettel at Monza, which had everything to do with what happened in qualifying and the weather will mean more in terms of a championship than another driver finishing second the entire season. GTFO with that garbage.

[woody2goody]

Which driver deserves the title?

And unlike NASCAR, where the playoff seeding is determined by wins, consider Kyle Busch as "Exhibit A": Eight wins, but a playoff choke. Carl Edwards couldn't overcome two major mistakes despite winning nine. Jimmie Johnson won eight, but ran a nearly flawless playoff to win his title.

I'd still say Johnson deserved the title because of his consistency throughout the WHOLE season. I'm not a fan of the Chase system, but the one thing that really bothers me about it is that you can retire from the first two races and be immediately out of contention even if you won 10 out of the first 25 races.

[woody2goody]

Two things that I don't think anyone's mentioned so far:

1. Penalties: even though there has been a lot of trouble regarding these both in 07 and 08, this new system will mean that most drivers will be able to do whatever they like.

For example: Hamilton is in contention for the championship. Lewis is leading a race. Massa is second and catching Hamilton but Kovalainen is third and catching Felipe. When Kovy reaches Massa, what's to stop McLaren telling him to spin Massa out of the race intentionally?

Kovy will get a penalty, but it won't mean anything because it won't matter in terms of the championship. Neither will a grid penalty for the next GP if he has not got enough wins. Under the current system Kovy would never take Massa out, especially if he was in contention for the title on points. He wouldn't want to take the risk of losing 6 or potentially 8 points by taking Massa out at the first available opportunity.

Second drivers like Piquet, Sutil, Buemi, Kovy can now be used as battering rams to aid the number one driver's championship aspirations.

[woody2goody]

2. Why does the person with the five or six wins deserve more credit than someone with 15 second places?

Surely, in a sport such as F1 which is so competitive, finishing second or third in every race is a better achievement than winning 5 and maybe having one or two podiums then crashing in the other races.

Adrian Sutil's found his dream championship! :D

[Tazio]

At least Fred's on our side :)
http://f1.automoto365.com/news/controller.php?lang=en&theme=default&month=3&year=2009&nextMode=GpNewsForm&news_id=35217

"I don't understand the need to constantly change the rules of this sport," he said on his official website. "I think that these types of decisions can only confuse the fans. Formula One has developed for more than 50 years thanks to the teams, the sponsors, the drivers and, above all, the fans throughout the world, and none of them have been able to put their points of view in front of the FIA. I'm concerned not so much about the decisions that will affect the season which is about to start but, above all, those that will affect the future of the competition in the coming years."

He did stop short of calling BE and MM "Crunb-Bums" which is a little disapointing :p :

[CNR]

win it or bin it i think that there will be a lot of tring to take out the other car to win

[LeonBrooke]

We're forgetting here... most of the time the champion on points has been the driver with the most wins anyway. I don't think this will change much.

And, we wanted the drivers to fight more for wins, now we have a system where that's encouraged and we're complaining? You people just like complaining, don't you?

It's all the same for everyone, it's not like anyone's especially disadvantaged by this. I think you're all just too strong-Lewis fans. For the record I think Massa would have been a more worthy champion anyway.

What's to stop teams asking their second driver to punt a rival out of the race? Integrity, and the fact they'll lose it if people see them doing that (which we will).

[gloomyDAY]

We're forgetting here... most of the time the champion on points has been the driver with the most wins anyway. I don't think this will change much.I guess you missed the 2008 Brazilian GP. :dozey:

Last year came down to the wire and I'd much rather have last year's points system. Imagine fans all over the world, "Wait, what? There is no reason to have points for the WDC!"

As your signature says, someone needs to give you a kick (preferably above the belt). :p

[AussieV8]

If they really wanted to reward winning, here is what they should have done. Award say 10 extra points for the first win of a season. This would place anyone who wins at least one race into a clear advantage over everybody who doesn't.

This will pretty much rule out a championship without a race victory and by the end of the year, all the contenders should be within the same range of points (as they should all have at least 1 win).

By simply awarding the championship to the driver with the most victories, there is a much higher chance of it being finished before the last race of the season (only needs to have two victories over their rival going into the last race to have the championship, 3 the race before and so on).

In the event of a race like Monza last year where a backmarker managed to win the race with a superb drive in wet conditions, that race will be meaningless for the overall drivers championship unless it goes to a countback. Previously, the championship contenders may not have been fighting for the win, but they may have been contesting for points finishes and the championship standings can change as a result.

Similarly, even if others are still in with a shot of winning the championship, if somebody has 5 or more victories by the half way point of the season, there will not be much interest in the championship unless someone manages a late season winning streak.

[wmcot]

online petition here

http://www.gopetition.co.uk/petitions/keep-the-points-system.html

don't know if there are any other out there, but i think we need to do something to show how unpopular this decision is, i've seen very very few message anywhere showing support for this one,

has anyone else got a link to a petition or a link to a good site to start one ourselves

Wow, I'm the 19th one to sign! That's a lot of signatures! :(

[LeonBrooke]

I guess you missed the 2008 Brazilian GP. :dozey:

Last year came down to the wire and I'd much rather have last year's points system. Imagine fans all over the world, "Wait, what? There is no reason to have points for the WDC!"

As your signature says, someone needs to give you a kick (preferably above the belt). :p

Yes but imagine having every race as hard-fought. I'll admit it's not the system I would have chosen but I don't think it'll be as bad as people think. WDCs won't be worth less. In fact I think WDCs are worth less when they're won from fifth place.

[Dank Bank]

Does this fall under "hard-fought"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlPrj9a88ME

And I think WDCs are worth more if you enter the last race knowing you only have to finish fifth or better due to your superior consistency throughout the entire season rather than just the nine races that you and your opponent have won.

[Dank Bank]

But Hamilton won from 5th due to overall results from all of the races, not just the nine he and Massa won. And Brazil was far from "hard-fought", Massa dominated and Hamilton was carefully trying not to blow it. That race was only "hard-fought" because of the final laps with Lewis and Vettel, which was entirely due to the points at stake.

[wmcot]

OK, so let's have a 19 race season with the first 18 races counting towards points. The 19th race will be for the title with the drivers lining up on the grid based on their points for the 1st 18 races, The 19th will be winner-take-all and Bernie will be happy with the final race being a title decider. Of course, the WDC just might be a driver who hasn't won any other race (ala Vettel at Monza, 2008) but that's life.

BTW - I'm not really serious about all this, I just wanted to see if I could sound as daft as the FIA.

[K-Pu]

OK, so let's have a 19 race season with the first 18 races counting towards points. The 19th race will be for the title with the drivers lining up on the grid based on their points for the 1st 18 races, The 19th will be winner-take-all and Bernie will be happy with the final race being a title decider. Of course, the WDC just might be a driver who hasn't won any other race (ala Vettel at Monza, 2008) but that's life.

BTW - I'm not really serious about all this, I just wanted to see if I could sound as daft as the FIA.

That´s more or less what we did when I was a kid... :D
We played a football match, and let´s say one team was crushing the other with an outstanding 10-0, but at the end of the match we all agreed that the next tone who scores would be the winner. The second team scored, they won the match and everyone was as happy as they´d ever be.

Not serious at all, but funny for us when we were 10 or so. And indeed, it sounds quite FIA-ish...

[AndyRAC]

OK, so let's have a 19 race season with the first 18 races counting towards points. The 19th race will be for the title with the drivers lining up on the grid based on their points for the 1st 18 races, The 19th will be winner-take-all and Bernie will be happy with the final race being a title decider. Of course, the WDC just might be a driver who hasn't won any other race (ala Vettel at Monza, 2008) but that's life.

BTW - I'm not really serious about all this, I just wanted to see if I could sound as daft as the FIA.

Sounds like you've been watching too much Nascar - and the "Chase for the Cup!"

[ArrowsFA1]

...drivers like to win, they'll always want to beat whoever is in front of them.
Exactly. Whatever points system is in place doesn't change the fact that all the drivers are intensely competitive people and they are all in F1 to win.

Bernie has said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73757) "The idea is to get people racing." Well, duh!!! What exactly is it that they've been doing all these years then?

Interestingly he thinks the drivers should take some of the blame for the lack of overtaking: "There are all these complaints that the cars are wrong and the circuits are wrong, but in the end I think the guys that are actually driving the cars have a lot to do with it."

Obviously the costly technical changes introduced this year to improve the 'show' were unnecessary then. All it needed was a change in the points system to increase overtaking :rolleyes:

[Dave B]

You know what? Call me cynical but I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more occurances of the Safety Car in the closing stages of races this year... :uhoh:

[Dave B]

Alonso (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73770):

"I don't understand the need to change the rules of the sport constantly. I think this kind of decisions can only confuse the fans. Formula 1 has existed for over 50 years thanks to the teams, the sponsors, the drivers and, above all, the fans from all over the world, and none of them have been able to express their views in front of the FIA.

"I worry, not so much about the decisions that affect the season that's about to start, but, above all, those that affect the future of the competition in the coming years.

"I hope somehow these measures can be reconsidered in the short-term."

Button (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73764):

"I think the public will struggle to understand why a driver with 60 points can become champion instead of the one who has 100.

"For sure it's an incentive to always go for the win, but it seems risky too - after nine races, we could find ourselves with a driver that has already won the title and can stand still eating ice cream, while the guy in second in the standings is just 18 points behind."

Trulli (http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090319085209.shtml):

"many negative factors and no positive...

"It seems to be that Formula One wants to die and we will all have to go and race in some other championship.

"It is right to try to give the public more, to improve the show, but it shouldn't distort the spirit of Formula One. I am very, very worried."

Rosberg (http://allenonf1.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/drivers-react-to-champion-points-plan/):

"What nonsense is this?"

Hamilton (http://allenonf1.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/drivers-react-to-champion-points-plan/):

"I have no opinion on this"

Heidfeld (http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11330&Itemid=219):

"It's a matter of taste, but my taste it isn't. I like the old way better. With points it is comprehensible. There is not only one or a few races (in a season), but 17 or 18."

[ArrowsFA1]

Bernie said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73757) the change "will get a positive reception from drivers".

"Really and truly the guys that know they're going to win are quite happy, and the ones that aren't going to win don't care."

[Dave B]

"Really and truly the guys that know they're going to win are quite happy, and the ones that aren't going to win don't care."

I refer you back to Robert Kubica. He "only" won one race last year, but thanks to outstanding reliability and performance was in contention for the title right up until the dying stages of the championship.

I bet he cares.

[Knock-on]

We're forgetting here... most of the time the champion on points has been the driver with the most wins anyway. I don't think this will change much.

And, we wanted the drivers to fight more for wins, now we have a system where that's encouraged and we're complaining? You people just like complaining, don't you?

It's all the same for everyone, it's not like anyone's especially disadvantaged by this. I think you're all just too strong-Lewis fans. For the record I think Massa would have been a more worthy champion anyway.

What's to stop teams asking their second driver to punt a rival out of the race? Integrity, and the fact they'll lose it if people see them doing that (which we will).

We have a format which will rely more on team strategy than a single driver racing on his own volition.

And you talk about integrity?

Where was the integrity with Senna punting Prost off or Schumacher with JV and DH for example. Where was the integrity of the FIA Stewards when they penalised a driver for trying to race which would have made a mockery of last years championship if Massa won and makes a mockety of this pathethic new system.

Just for the record, I am a Lewis fan and perversly, I think that this change to the system will benefit him more than anyone else on the grid along with Alonso. So, it seems silly to criticise Lewis fans for speaking out about something that benefits us and denegrates the championship ;)

[555-04Q2]

Wow! Looking at the vote count, the FIA have got something wrong again :(

[ShiftingGears]

Damn. I thought that the modified points were good. I like consistency as well.

[F1boat]

I dunno, maybe the teams and the drivers must go to LMS or other championships, as Trulli suggested. And return only when Bernard and Mad Max are gone for good.

[F1boat]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73778

Michael also negative on the new rules.

[Knock-on]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73778

Michael also negative on the new rules.


Very strong and frank views.

I quite like Schumy now again since he's retired from driving. It will be a shame if he does leave F1.

[F1boat]

Maybe many people will leave F1 after all. We'll see. But Alonso, Trulli, the Ferrari drivers, Button are all negative and we all know why McLaren drivers are silent - they are afraid by the FIA. Enough is enough - I think that if Max remains on his post this year, the teams and the drivers will leave the sport. Bernie has to go as well.

[ArrowsFA1]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73778

Michael also negative on the new rules.


"I cannot imagine those changes to help F1, especially regarding the new system to find the champion. I cannot see how it makes sense to eventually have a world champion who has less points than the driver coming in second, even if I also think it is a good move to try to strengthen the winner's position."
:up:

[Manson]

Facebook petition/protest group set up - already 1200+ names in a very short space of time, if you have Facebook please join the group

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=56613532878

[blakebeatty]

Let's assume one started watching formula 1 when he was fifteen. And then remained a formula 1 fan throughout his life, perhaps until 65. That would mean 50 seasons of formula 1. 50 World Championships decided.

Would the sacrifice of a single (of the fifty) formula one season not be small, if it ammounts to a poor result? What if the results are favorable? Whether this be a good idea, or not, does it not seem like an interesting thing to try? Seems logical to me.

[F1boat]

Facebook petition/protest group set up - already 1200+ names in a very short space of time, if you have Facebook please join the group

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=56613532878

I joined the group. I do not even hope that this idiotic decision will be reversed, but at least we try...

[Dzeidzei]

Could we sum up the pros and cons of the new points system?

PROS

1. Probably enforces more aggressive racing with the front cars.
2. ?

CONS

1. WDC fight could be over by mid season.
2. If a driver cannot win, it´s better to park the car and save the gear -> equals to no racing at all.
3. Teams basicly must decide on 1st and 2nd drivers very early on.
4. The driver with most points is not necessarily WDC.


If a country has moronic & demented leaders, it always eventually ends up in a revolution. In any business stupid CEOs will eventually be changed. In F1 there is no such possibility. I think the teams should act on this. Wasnt it Bernie who said that F1 could not live without Ferrari? I think fans all over would support Ferrari threatening to leave the series. If McLaren and BMW would join, Bernie would have to take the old system back.

Any rumors of a FOTA crisis meeting?

[F1boat]

Could we sum up the pros and cons of the new points system?


Trulli:

"many negative factors and no positive..."

[Tazio]

Could we sum up the pros and cons of the new points system?

PROS

1. Probably enforces more aggressive racing with the front cars.
2. ?

CONS

1. WDC fight could be over by mid season.
2. If a driver cannot win, it´s better to park the car and save the gear -> equals to no racing at all.
3. Teams basicly must decide on 1st and 2nd drivers very early on.
4. The driver with most points is not necessarily WDC.


If a country has moronic & demented leaders, it always eventually ends up in a revolution. In any business stupid CEOs will eventually be changed. In F1 there is no such possibility. I think the teams should act on this. Wasnt it Bernie who said that F1 could not live without Ferrari? I think fans all over would support Ferrari threatening to leave the series. If McLaren and BMW would join, Bernie would have to take the old system back.

Any rumors of a FOTA crisis meeting?Of all those points (in which I agree with all) an early resolution to the championship is the least compelling. The over-reaction to that concern is what brought this situation about. Though I agree with you because mathematically you could have a done deal by the eighth race, which is absurd. In 2004 everyone in the know conceded the championship to Mike well before that point. I remember Peter Windsor's pit walk before the Australian GP asking DC what he thought his chances were. DC said (although it's sometimes hard to understand his dialect of English) ;) "If practice firm 'olds tra Ferr airy will be lappin' the field". Having the outcome of a competition truly reflect the level of ability, and performance during the course of a season is the essence of sport. Unlike 2004 the new rules in this regard are flawed for the other reasons you listed plus Bernie does not care for an honest and representative outcome. He through The FIA and race stewardship will contrive violations and penalties to ensure (to the best of his ability) that the championship will be in doubt as deep into the season as possible, which I translate into an admission that the sport is fixed.

[D28]

With the poits systems since 1950, it is relatively easy to convert scores to a common field, and compare drivers of 1954, say, with the current crop. Not perfect, because drivers react to the current system, but statistcally possible.
After 2008, such comparisons become meaningless. As Alonso says, fans will be confused. They will indeed.
Since Bernie goes back to at least 1958 as an observer/participant, it is very puzzling why he puts so little stock in tradition.

[Bagwan]

It can't be .
Bernie and Max will change this lunacy .

By doing so with such a stupid idea , they will be seen to have listened to the fans and FOTA , and all will seemingly be rosier than rosy again .

At least , I hope that's what happens .

A clever twist is really what this stupid idea needs .

[tinchote]

Let's assume one started watching formula 1 when he was fifteen. And then remained a formula 1 fan throughout his life, perhaps until 65. That would mean 50 seasons of formula 1. 50 World Championships decided.

Would the sacrifice of a single (of the fifty) formula one season not be small, if it ammounts to a poor result? What if the results are favorable? Whether this be a good idea, or not, does it not seem like an interesting thing to try? Seems logical to me.

I guess you wouldn't mind to go to jail for a year because it is "only" a year? ;)

If this system stays, there will certainly be seasons where it won't make a big difference. But, on the other hand, all of the fans, the manufacturers and the governing body want a more level field. If that were achieved, you could easily have a season like 1982, where no driver won more than two races. That would be interesting :mark:

[blakebeatty]

I guess you wouldn't mind to go to jail for a year because it is "only" a year? ;)

If this system stays, there will certainly be seasons where it won't make a big difference. But, on the other hand, all of the fans, the manufacturers and the governing body want a more level field. If that were achieved, you could easily have a season like 1982, where no driver won more than two races. That would be interesting :mark:

Going to jail for one year would be far more intrusive in my life than the f1 world championship being decided a little too early.

And even if the championship is decided, there will still be challenges for wins for runner up positions. Also would one not think that if one team had nothing to lose, they would sit back and let a rival win races. With nothing at stake, there is no reason to think that they wouldn't attempt crazier things to stop rivals from winning races. There is nothing to say that if the championship was decided early, that teams won't still compete.

The point of the system is NOT to make the CHAMPIONSHIP more interesting, the point of the system is to make THE RACES MORE INTERESTING. The fact that the last two championships came down to one point is irrelevant to the change, for this reason. People watch the races TO SEE A RACE, not to designate the seating arrangements of an awards banquet in November.

[DexDexter]

Going to jail for one year would be far more intrusive in my life than the f1 world championship being decided a little too early.

And even if the championship is decided, there will still be challenges for wins for runner up positions. Also would one not think that if one team had nothing to lose, they would sit back and let a rival win races. With nothing at stake, there is no reason to think that they wouldn't attempt crazier things to stop rivals from winning races. There is nothing to say that if the championship was decided early, that teams won't still compete.

The point of the system is NOT to make the CHAMPIONSHIP more interesting, the point of the system is to make THE RACES MORE INTERESTING. The fact that the last two championships came down to one point is irrelevant to the change, for this reason. People watch the races TO SEE A RACE, not to designate the seating arrangements of an awards banquet in November.

Changing the point system doesn't make races more interesting, the fastest car will still usually qualify on the front and lead from there. The idea of the new point system is (I guess) to encourage overtaking at the front, but if you have a slower car, you are not going to overtake no matter what. Bernie & Co. are seriously underestimating the drivers if they think that overtaking the leader is a matter of will and last year they didn't overtake because they were happy to finish second. If you can't overtake you can't no matter what's in stake. The regulation just destroys the sport.

[Knock-on]

Could we sum up the pros and cons of the new points system?

PROS

1. Probably enforces more aggressive racing with the front cars.
2. ?

CONS

1. WDC fight could be over by mid season.
2. If a driver cannot win, it´s better to park the car and save the gear -> equals to no racing at all.
3. Teams basicly must decide on 1st and 2nd drivers very early on.
4. The driver with most points is not necessarily WDC.


If a country has moronic & demented leaders, it always eventually ends up in a revolution. In any business stupid CEOs will eventually be changed. In F1 there is no such possibility. I think the teams should act on this. Wasnt it Bernie who said that F1 could not live without Ferrari? I think fans all over would support Ferrari threatening to leave the series. If McLaren and BMW would join, Bernie would have to take the old system back.

Any rumors of a FOTA crisis meeting?


PROS

1. Probably enforces more aggressive racing with the front cars.
2. Appeals more to the casual fans that watch F1 for high speed crashes.
3. Max and Bernie want it because it makes it easier to manipulate the championship

CONS

1. WDC fight could be over by mid season.
2. If a driver cannot win, it´s better to park the car and save the gear -> equals to no racing at all.
3. Teams basicly must decide on 1st and 2nd drivers very early on.
4. The driver with most points is not necessarily WDC.
5. Increases the likelyhood of crashing and driver injury
6. Driers don't want it
7. Teams Don't want it
8. Fans don't want it

[AndyL]

I think it would be an interesting exercise to do the same analysis for past F1 seasons - at what point the championship was wrapped up, vs. when it would have been wrapped up based on wins only. Perhaps someone already has.
It seems to me that whatever other outcomes it might have, this idea must surely lead to championships being closed out earlier in the season, especially when teams are not quite evenly matched.

OK well having said that, in a fit of temporary insanity, I decided to do the sums myself. The results, for 59 championships from 1950:

12 championships would have been won by someone different under this new wins scheme (6 of those in the 1980s).
14 would have been decided earlier in the season, 3 later, and 42 at the same point.
The average season would have been won 0.3 races earlier.
9 of the 14 earlier close-outs would have been since 1990.
In 1996 and 2004 the championship would have been decided 3 races earlier than it was under the points scheme that existed at the time.
There are only 4 years when the new scheme would have denied us a final-race decider.
The earliest a championship would have been decided would have been race 11 of 18, in 2004.


The detailed numbers are attached, I apologise in advance for any errors. It can get a bit tricky to figure out when a championship was wrapped up in years when scores were dropped. N.B. I have assumed that if drivers are tied on wins, then points will decide the championship - that's my understanding of what Max is doing but it gives me slightly different results to some media sources (specifically, for 1981).

[gloomyDAY]

Andy, are you an accountant?

Every time the rule changes pop into my mind I think of this (http://www.sadtrombone.com/)....

[LeonBrooke]

We have a format which will rely more on team strategy than a single driver racing on his own volition.

And you talk about integrity?

Where was the integrity with Senna punting Prost off or Schumacher with JV and DH for example. Where was the integrity of the FIA Stewards when they penalised a driver for trying to race which would have made a mockery of last years championship if Massa won and makes a mockety of this pathethic new system.

Just for the record, I am a Lewis fan and perversly, I think that this change to the system will benefit him more than anyone else on the grid along with Alonso. So, it seems silly to criticise Lewis fans for speaking out about something that benefits us and denegrates the championship ;)
Integrity, yes, as in, if we saw Heikki take Felipe out under instruction from his team we'd hate the team for cheating. They'd lose integrity. Therefore there won't be any attempts to take out faster drivers deliberately because the team would become loathed by the fans.

And as for Spa, would you be complaining if Lewis and Felipe had had their positions reversed, i.e. Hamilton won while Massa's penalised? Of course you wouldn't, it's a double-standard that says Lewis can do no wrong. and if Lewis had then won the title following on from winning at Spa while Felipe was penalised, would that be a mockery of the championship? No because Lewis can do no wrong, it's a double-standard.

If every non-Timo Glock driver was automaticallk given a 10-second stop and go penalty for not being Timo Glock, would that be wrong? Indisputably. If every non-Lewis Hamilton driver was automaticallk given a 10-second stop and go penalty for not being Lewis Hamilton, would that be wrong? No because Lewis is perfect and can do no wrong, and anything that gets in the way of him winning, such as other drivers, is wrong, and unsporting.

You, sir, and others who think like you are the biggest problem this sport faces (after the constant pointless rule-changes [haha, do ya geddit??]).

[Shifter]

OK well having said that, in a fit of temporary insanity, I decided to do the sums myself. The results, for 59 championships from 1950:

12 championships would have been won by someone different under this new wins scheme (6 of those in the 1980s).
14 would have been decided earlier in the season, 3 later, and 42 at the same point.
The average season would have been won 0.3 races earlier.
9 of the 14 earlier close-outs would have been since 1990.
In 1996 and 2004 the championship would have been decided 3 races earlier than it was under the points scheme that existed at the time.
There are only 4 years when the new scheme would have denied us a final-race decider.
The earliest a championship would have been decided would have been race 11 of 18, in 2004.


The detailed numbers are attached, I apologise in advance for any errors. It can get a bit tricky to figure out when a championship was wrapped up in years when scores were dropped. N.B. I have assumed that if drivers are tied on wins, then points will decide the championship - that's my understanding of what Max is doing but it gives me slightly different results to some media sources (specifically, for 1981).

I cant decide if the figures are more impressive or the fact that you calculated it. Bravo!

[ArrowsFA1]

Could we sum up the pros and cons of the new points system?
The new system makes the completely false assumption that drivers do not race for the best position they can achieve.

Robert Kubica:
“Many people seem to think that a driver remains in third or fourth because he likes to be there, just to score a lot of points. But believe me, any racing driver will try to pass the one ahead of him if he sees the slightest chance to do so. Drivers always try to win the race.”

[Dave B]

OK well having said that, in a fit of temporary insanity, I decided to do the sums myself. The results, for 59 championships from 1950:.
That's all well and good - and for the record you have done some impressive work - but drivers in those championships raced according to the rules at the time.

One only has to look at last year for example: under the new system Massa would have been champion, but that's only because McLaren took the deliberate decision to race for 5th. It's impossible to go back in time and see what might have happenned if Hamilton knew he had to win - he might have raced more aggressively and succeeded, he may have left the track trying. We can never know.

[ShiftingGears]

That's all well and good - and for the record you have done some impressive work - but drivers in those championships raced according to the rules at the time.

Exactly.


McLaren took the deliberate decision to race for 5th.

I don't agree with that at all.

[Dave B]

I don't agree with that at all.
Well they certainly took a more conservative strategy than in many other races, knowing that Hamilton only needed to be 5th or better. We can't know what that may have done under different rules.

[Dave B]

Alonso (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73770):

"I don't understand the need to change the rules of the sport constantly. I think this kind of decisions can only confuse the fans. Formula 1 has existed for over 50 years thanks to the teams, the sponsors, the drivers and, above all, the fans from all over the world, and none of them have been able to express their views in front of the FIA.

"I worry, not so much about the decisions that affect the season that's about to start, but, above all, those that affect the future of the competition in the coming years.

"I hope somehow these measures can be reconsidered in the short-term."

Button (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73764):

"I think the public will struggle to understand why a driver with 60 points can become champion instead of the one who has 100.

"For sure it's an incentive to always go for the win, but it seems risky too - after nine races, we could find ourselves with a driver that has already won the title and can stand still eating ice cream, while the guy in second in the standings is just 18 points behind."

Trulli (http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090319085209.shtml):

"many negative factors and no positive...

"It seems to be that Formula One wants to die and we will all have to go and race in some other championship.

"It is right to try to give the public more, to improve the show, but it shouldn't distort the spirit of Formula One. I am very, very worried."

Rosberg (http://allenonf1.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/drivers-react-to-champion-points-plan/):

"What nonsense is this?"

Hamilton (http://allenonf1.wordpress.com/2009/03/18/drivers-react-to-champion-points-plan/):

"I have no opinion on this"

Heidfeld (http://www.f1sa.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11330&Itemid=219):

"It's a matter of taste, but my taste it isn't. I like the old way better. With points it is comprehensible. There is not only one or a few races (in a season), but 17 or 18."

Webber (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73784):

"Robert Kubica would have been nowhere near the championship last year, and do you want that? Robert drove awesome last year and he would have been nowhere near the title hunt with these regulations," Webber told the BBC.

"You could have the world champion making more mistakes than the guy who is second.

"Whether consistency makes a better driver, or the driver who wins more races is better than the guy who is more competitive at more races throughout the season, is a matter of opinion."

di Montezemelo (http://allenonf1.wordpress.com/2009/03/19/big-names-line-up-to-attack-new-rules/):

“It really is grave and absurd that our world finds itself in a situation like this. I hope for a climate of responsibility like that of the teams, who have reduced costs. It’s really absurd and dangerous that one week from the first race F1 finds itself back in this kind of situation, which is very negative for credibility, for the teams, the manufacturers, the fans and sponsors.

"It’s more important to have a calmer atmosphere and to avoid continual changes which generate uncertainty, for those who work in the sport and raises question marks about the future.”

Michael Schumacher (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73778):

"I cannot imagine those changes to help F1, especially regarding the new system to find the champion. I cannot see how it makes sense to eventually have a world champion who has less points than the driver coming in second, even if I also think it is a good move to try to strengthen the winner's position."

[ioan]

Hamilton

"I have no opinion on this"


FGS how much brainwashing was applied to this guy?

PS: I don't care if he agrees with or he's against it, but not having an opinion on such changes that affect your life is a bit too much to understand.

[Dave B]

Ok then, how about this?

Hamilton: I hate the idea but I'm ****-scared about speaking out because I know the FIA have got in in for me.

[ArrowsFA1]

FGS how much brainwashing was applied to this guy?

PS: I don't care if he agrees with or he's against it, but not having an opinion on such changes that affect your life is a bit too much to understand.
As the FIA World Champion, particularly one that drives for McLaren, perhaps he is wise to keep his opinion to himself where something relating to the FIA is concerned ;)

[AndyL]

As the FIA World Champion, particularly one that drives for McLaren, perhaps he is wise to keep his opinion to himself where something relating to the FIA is concerned ;)

Especially given that this rule could be seen as targetted specifically at him... what else prompted its introduction but a perception by some that Lewis did not deserve to win last year. Any criticism of it from Lewis would inevitably be perceived as biased and self-interested: "well he would say it's rubbish wouldn't he because he wouldn't have won his championship under the new rules." I think he's wise to leave it to others to comment on this.

[DexDexter]

The new system makes the completely false assumption that drivers do not race for the best position they can achieve.


Exactly, I think Bernie has lost it, plain and simple. I wrote about it earlier already but they seem to think that passing is some kind of a mind game like: "I'm going to pass a car that is 10km quicker on the straight with the help of Bernie's new rule which gives me more motivation. I'm sure I can brake later as well." Yeah right.

[Knock-on]

Especially given that this rule could be seen as targetted specifically at him... what else prompted its introduction but a perception by some that Lewis did not deserve to win last year. Any criticism of it from Lewis would inevitably be perceived as biased and self-interested: "well he would say it's rubbish wouldn't he because he wouldn't have won his championship under the new rules." I think he's wise to leave it to others to comment on this.

Despite the efforts of the FIA, Lewis did win last years and thanks God otherwise it would have been a travesty of justice IMHO. That being so, it's now history and time to move on to this new system.

Lewis keeping his head down and not offering an opinion on this is probably a smart move but in reality, he is probably licking his lips at this format. Pound for pound, there are probably only 3 drivers out there that will really benefit from this system. LH, KR and FA.

[ArrowsFA1]

World champion Lewis Hamilton has called on the FIA to start working with the teams to help improve Formula 1, after becoming the latest driver to criticise rule changes announced this week.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73797

[I am evil Homer]

From that Autosport interview:

"For the first time in recent years we have the teams, drivers, sponsors and fans all working together for the good of our sport - now we just need the governing bodies to listen to us and help us," said Hamilton."Formula 1 is the pinnacle of motorsport and that's what we all love about it; we should all be working together to maintain that."

Seems pretty clear to me where he stands...I guess the original "no opinion" would depend on who was asking. If it was Marca I imagine he'd keep quiet but Autosport is a respected title that he's more likely willing to open up to.

[SilverArrows]

Stupid, stupid, stupid system. Bernie got his medal system in end, albeit without the medals :p . I mean the total number of wins (what would've been gold medals) will determine the championship. They should've kept the points exclusively but modified them from the MotoGP system.

What if someone only finished 4 races but won those races and at the end of the season those 4 wins were enough to win the championship? Would he be a worthy champion? Maybe not. It's possible we'll lose the drama at the end of the season.

F1 is a great sport but Max and Bernie are doing their best to ruin it. :(

[ArrowsFA1]

...I guess the original "no opinion" would depend on who was asking. If it was Marca I imagine he'd keep quiet but Autosport is a respected title that he's more likely willing to open up to.
According to the BBC website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7954755.stm) Hamilton was "speaking in a statement issued by McLaren...BBC Sport understands Hamilton's remarks are aimed at the decision to impose an optional budget cap of £30m in 2010 as much as they are at the change to the points system."

[Bagwan]

Trulli:

"many negative factors and no positive...

"It seems to be that Formula One wants to die and we will all have to go and race in some other championship.

"It is right to try to give the public more, to improve the show, but it shouldn't distort the spirit of Formula One. I am very, very worried."




For Jarno to have been so outspoken as to actually say they should leave , must mean he's speaking the same thoughts as his team . He's not so stupid that he would go so far without knowing how his team feels .

As far as Hamilton goes , I think it might be that he wasn't perhaps as aware of how the other drivers felt about the situation .
Being he is WDC , he may have been the first asked .
But , that said , and given what the others have opined , he comes off a little worse for no opinion than if he had had one .


I still hold out hope that this thing can be killed before it takes effect .
If it can be tossed in at this last moment , then it should be able to disappear just as fast .

It's the very idea that they left it to the last moment without proper time for debate that makes me think in this direction .

That it is totally different to the FOTA proposal also leads me in the same direction . It is a time when the FIA must be seen to be leading the series into a sustainable future , and this cannot be achieved if the governing body and the teams are at odds over something so fundamental .
To act now , to quash the idea , would appear to lead the series into a rosy future , with the FIA and FOTA acting together .

I am hoping it's all a ruse .
It's so stupid , it's got to be .

[AndyL]

What if someone only finished 4 races but won those races and at the end of the season those 4 wins were enough to win the championship? Would he be a worthy champion? Maybe not. It's possible we'll lose the drama at the end of the season.

1979 is quite a good example. It's one of the championships that would change hands under the wins rule; also one of the few that would have been kept alive later in the season.
In reality Jody Scheckter won, ahead of Gilles Villeneuve then Alan Jones. Scheckter was a consistent points finisher throughout, but only won two races in the early part of the season. Under the wins rule, that would have left the door open for Alan Jones to come from nowhere and take the title with his 4 wins in the last 6 races. Who would have been the more deserving champion, Scheckter or Jones?

http://www.f1-facts.com/results/season/1979

[Nikki Katz]

Autosport is now reporting that this might be thrown out, at least for 2009 - for such a late change to the points system the FIA needs unanimous agreement from the teams, yet they didn't even ask them!

[ArrowsFA1]

The Formula One Teams' Association has questioned the validity of the FIA's decision to impose a new points structure for this season.
In a statement issued on Friday, FOTA said that it hoped it could work together with the FIA for a new points structure to be put in place for 2010.
"Following the decision of the World Motorsport Council of the 17 March 2009 to change the way the drivers' championship is awarded, the Teams gathered and unanimously agreed to question the validity of this decision," said the statement.
"FOTA had made a proposal that was carefully based on the results of a Global Audience Survey, which allowed listening to preferences of the public, and all the Teams firmly believe that these indications should be properly taken into account.
"The amendment to the sporting regulations proposed by the World Motorsport Council was not performed in accordance with the procedure provided for by Appendix 5 of the Sporting Regulations and, as per the provisions of the article 199 of the FIA International Sporting Code, it is too late for FIA to impose a change for the 2009 season that has not obtained the unanimous agreement of all the competitors properly entered into the 2009 Formula 1 Championship.
"Since the change to the scoring system unanimously agreed by the Teams and proposed to FIA did not receive approval of the WMSC, no change can occur in 2009, and the Teams wish to reaffirm their willingness to collaborate with the FIA in order to jointly define a new point system for the 2010 season within a comprehensive set of measures aimed at further stimulating the attractiveness of the F1 Sport."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73809

[Knock-on]

The unanimous agreement of FOTA is only relevant when it agrees with Max's view.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I am a very casual F1 fan and someone who spends more time watching ALMS, NASCAR and IRL. This decision isn't going to make me watch more often. What is more, it is about the dumbest move they could make. F1 points are hard to get, have meaning and while a win is always nice, it is well rewarded already but a true champion wins because they are always in the race and always a threat. By changing the championship to whom wins the most races wins, you will see some very wacky strategies not in keeping with the spirit of the sport. I am not sure who exactly is running f1, but it isn't someone with a clue....

[Dave B]

Several sites are now reporting the FOTA view that the changes breach the FIA's own rules! :D

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73809
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=37260
http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/F1technicalnetFormulaOneNews/~3/V-lianrsoJQ/11852

And it seems that the FIA may be prepared to defer the decision - hopefully making a more sensible one for 2010:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73810
http://www.itv-f1.com/Controller.aspx?PO_ID=45300
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7955790.stm

Oh happy day :bounce:

[UltimateDanGTR]

*Fingers crossed Fota get their own way*

[kraftwerk]

*Fingers crossed Fota get their own way*

They have... :s mokin:

[UltimateDanGTR]

Well It does now!

The BBC say it 'seems certain'. strong words. Most relieving bit of news I've had since, well, I cant remember..... :bounce: :s mokin: :champion:

Just hope that 'seems' changes to reality, which it should do. But the beeb say the FIA would then defer the new system to 2010, which just seems silly to me. I hope they keep it as it is for this season, and then review the situation at the end.

[Giuseppe F1]

THANK GOD FOR THAT!!!

If the FIA are deferring for a year...why bother? Noone, the fans, the team likes the FIAs suggestion so defer it FOREVER!

Also, we this mean that the FOTA suggestion of 12 points for the win etc. can now be introduced for this season?

[Donney]

FIA are getting dumber and dumber, just when it looked impossible they managed to surprise us again.

[inimitablestoo]

Next week: the FIA announces plans to restructure the Constructors' Championship, which will now take the form of a concours competition... :crazy:

[ArrowsFA1]

The FIA has said it will defer the introduction of a new points system in Formula 1 until 2010 if teams are unhappy about it.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73810

If? If? :laugh:

[UltimateDanGTR]

well you're never quite sure if a team likes it or not with a unanomous vote against it.........

[Mark in Oshawa]

FIA have killed every other race series they have attempted to run outside of F1, give them time they might find a way to screw this up....

[christophulus]

Thank you! Get rid of this stupid idea and let's get on with the damn racing! Always thought it was a bit odd to change it so close to the start.

[emporer_k]

Somebody really ought to teach the fia the art of thinking things through and gaging opinion before making announcements.

[Somebody]

According to the BBC website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7954755.stm) Hamilton was "speaking in a statement issued by McLaren...

Ah.

We all know by now that the drivers' Official Statements aren't written by the drivers, surely? The near-legalese they're written in should give that away, if nothing else.

[BobbyC]

Friday at Bristol in NASCAR was a field day, and a few drivers were on the button discussing the issue in press day.

Kevin Harvick, Richard Childress Racing - Shell:

“I think that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. If it is about winning the most races, the other ones just don’t count? In my opinion, it is all about ten races (in the playoff) and when you have problems, it is all about the guy who can fix his car and it is about the guy who can come back and make something out of a loose wheel and make up two laps and to me it takes an element of the sport away because if you aren’t going to win and you are having a bad day, what the consequences of just pulling in?”

Teammate Jeff Burton, who drives for the Caterpillar team:

“I’m not a real big fan of that because I think if you won seven races and fell out of seven races, perhaps you’re not the best team. I’m not 100 percent sure what I think about that. It’s a notion that’s been kicked around here for a long time. This guy won the most races but he didn’t win the championship. I like the fact that you have to show consistency. You have to be a consistent front-runner. You do those things on a consistent basis, especially in a series where you run 36 races. The more races you run, the more important that becomes. If you have a ten-race schedule, then I think that changes things. When you look at how that series is, it’s a marathon. The races are marathons (usually three or more hours; F1 races are between 75 and 120 minutes). There are lot of things that are different between our form of racing. As the sport goes, we run some of the longest races in the longest year compared to other forms of Motorsports (F1 race maximum is 305 km; NSCS races are minimum 350km-976km; Sunday's race is 430km). So that means you need a different type of points system. I believe consistency matters.”

Carl Edwards, Roush-Fenway Racing, Aflac:

"I think if you determine your champion just based on wins, you’re taking a huge gamble of having the wrong champion. If one guy wins one race and runs 20th in the rest of them, and another guy finishes second in every single race, that’s not the right guy for a champion. The more and more I pay attention to all of these changes with all these point systems all over the board, the more I like the Nationwide Series and the Camping World Truck Series, where the guy with the best average finishing position throughout the year wins. I think the farther we get away from that, the bigger the chance of changing our sport to try to fit in with others and I don’t think that’s best for us."

Teammate Greg Biffle - 3M:

"I don’t necessarily know that I would go with that theory because all forms of racing and all forms of sports, normally, are rewarded for being consistent – not being on one day and off another day. A football team, a basketball team, a baseball team, if they’re on one time and then not, being consistent and being good is what’s important – maybe not so much the stick-and-ball sports – but you can’t be on one day and off another and racing is sort of the same. You have to be at a very, very consistent level. If you want to do that, continue to give wins more points. If you really want to impact your series with wins make it a 50-point bonus to the winner if you want to reward a team for winning. There are ways of doing it versus saying whoever wins the most we’re gonna give the championship to them."

The drivers for the most part said that you have to go through thick and thin to win a title. Harvick's comments were built around one focus -- take the good, take the bad, and winning the title is not based on your best, but how you do on your worst. Turning lemons into lemonade is winning titles.

[woody2goody]

Some wise words from the NASCAR boys there. All those drivers are respected veterans who know better than most about success and failure.

Somehow, even after the good news from today about the championship possibly staying the same, something tells me, sadly, that if Bernie doesn't retire/die/become senile enough to be removed from his post this year, then we will have this godforsaken shambles in 2010.

No-one wants it, no-one likes it, no-one is happy with it, just scrap it and let them race. Let's all hope that the drivers' title is decided at the last race in November again. Three years in a row should bury that ridiculous idea.

[wmcot]

If the FIA are deferring for a year...why bother? Noone, the fans, the team likes the FIAs suggestion so defer it FOREVER!

Also, we this mean that the FOTA suggestion of 12 points for the win etc. can now be introduced for this season?

The "deferral" for a year might be a way of letting everyone forget about the idea since everybody hated it. Hopefully it will just fade away forever!

I doubt that the FOTA points could be implemented this season since FOTA used the idea that rules can't be changed so close to the beginning of the season. I'm sure the FIA would use FOTA's words against them. At least we'll have the familiar points system this year! :)

[UltimateDanGTR]

Now Officially 100% confirmed, if there was any doubt, that the normal points system will be used this season! Hoorah! If the FIA seem to need to change it to make the season more interesting after 3 great previous seasons, then blow me. Apparently the new rule will be reviewed and so hopefully we'll see something more like what the teams want, which is what we want. Well done FOTA! just about saved F1 there,

FIA 0 REST OF THE WORLD 1

Scorers:
FOTA 20/3/09

[richj]

"I doubt that the FOTA points could be implemented this season since FOTA used the idea that rules can't be changed so close to the beginning of the season. I'm sure the FIA would use FOTA's words against them. At least we'll have the familiar points system this year!"

The part of the statement that is key, was the with unanimous support of the teams... if all the teams were for it, it could be ratified...

[DexDexter]

The "deferral" for a year might be a way of letting everyone forget about the idea since everybody hated it. Hopefully it will just fade away forever!

I doubt that the FOTA points could be implemented this season since FOTA used the idea that rules can't be changed so close to the beginning of the season. I'm sure the FIA would use FOTA's words against them. At least we'll have the familiar points system this year! :)

I think they are just trying to save their faces by saying they will have it next year. The rule will be long forgotten then.

Call me a cynic, but to me this looks like it was just a test by the FIA (Max) to see if FOTA was solid.

Any fracture within the teams on this issue, which is pretty minor in the scheme of things, and the FIA would have fired up the steamroller.

Now, the FIA knows that a bit more guile, persuasion and collobaration is required. Yes, I know that there will be those amongst us who think it should have that approach to begin with, but that isn't realistic in a power struggle, which is what this is all about.

Being unilaterally reasonable in a power struggle doesn't work.

[ArrowsFA1]

Essentially the FIA proposal was Bernie's medals idea wrapped up a different way. Max, via the WMSC, wanted to push it through. Now we know what Max wants the WMSC rubber-stamps, but this time, unfortunately for the credibility of the FIA, the WMSC ignored their own rules that required approval from all the teams. It took FOTA to point this out.

It's laughable the way the FIA now tries to backtrack.


The 'winner takes all' proposal made by the commercial rights holder (who had been told that the teams were in favour) was then approved.
Told by who? Did "the commercial rights holder" come along the the WMSC meeting and say "oh yes, the teams love the idea, take my word for it"? Clearly the teams were not in favour of the medals idea.

"If, for any reason, the Formula One teams do not now agree with the new system, its implementation will be deferred until 2010."
Crafty wording. This suggests the teams have changed their minds. In so doing the FIA are trying to place responsibility for this farce on the teams :laugh:

Crafty wording. This suggests the teams have changed their minds. In so doing the FIA are trying to place responsibility for this farce on the teams :laugh:

What else would you expect? Seriously?

The FIA are not going to roll over and let FOTA tickle its belly.

Anyone who didn't think there would be a power struggle despite the pronouncements by the FIA and FOTA is hopelessly naive.

[Daniel]

Now Officially 100% confirmed, if there was any doubt, that the normal points system will be used this season! Hoorah! If the FIA seem to need to change it to make the season more interesting after 3 great previous seasons, then blow me. Apparently the new rule will be reviewed and so hopefully we'll see something more like what the teams want, which is what we want. Well done FOTA! just about saved F1 there,

FIA 0 REST OF THE WORLD 1

Scorers:
FOTA 20/3/09

Call me cynical but I suspect this was all done to get the result above.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Good point I handt thought of that. Crafty FIA, whatever their plans were they still made themselves look stupid. no different to normal then.........

Good point I handt thought of that. Crafty FIA, whatever their plans were they still made themselves look stupid. no different to normal then.........

Did they? Short-term yes, long-term maybe not.

It could now be said that they listened to the teams, the fans and changed accordingly, thereby giving them credibility in future disputes (i.e - the FIA has shown itself willing to compromise, back-track and change, now FOTA have to do the same or they will be percieved by the wider world as being unreasonable)

Funnily enough, the majority of people who wanted a change from what is a crap points system (only two more points for winning is not good) are now delirious that we have a system whereby you only get two more points for winning.

No wonder the FIA tried it on when the majority of fans are self evidently brain dead enough to demand change but be happy with status quo.

All FOTA have achieved is maintaining the status quo. Not exactly the progressive, listen to the fans ethos they have been spouting.

[Bagwan]

I still hold out hope that this thing can be killed before it takes effect .
If it can be tossed in at this last moment , then it should be able to disappear just as fast .

It's the very idea that they left it to the last moment without proper time for debate that makes me think in this direction .

That it is totally different to the FOTA proposal also leads me in the same direction . It is a time when the FIA must be seen to be leading the series into a sustainable future , and this cannot be achieved if the governing body and the teams are at odds over something so fundamental .
To act now , to quash the idea , would appear to lead the series into a rosy future , with the FIA and FOTA acting together .

I am hoping it's all a ruse .
It's so stupid , it's got to be .


I told ya so .

Listen to the bagwan , you fools . He knows the score .
He just applied a little "Markabilly style" logic to the mess and found the FIA Freshie flowing freely .
You've got it right , Tam . They were testing the waters .

It's a rosy world once again . Aint life great ?

[Tazio]

Did they? Short-term yes, long-term maybe not.

It could now be said that they listened to the teams, the fans and changed accordingly, thereby giving them credibility in future disputes (i.e - the FIA has shown itself willing to compromise, back-track and change, now FOTA have to do the same or they will be percieved by the wider world as being unreasonable)

Funnily enough, the majority of people who wanted a change from what is a crap points system (only two more points for winning is not good) are now delirious that we have a system whereby you only get two more points for winning.

No wonder the FIA tried it on when the majority of fans are self evidently brain dead enough to demand change but be happy with status quo.

All FOTA have achieved is maintaining the status quo. Not exactly the progressive, listen to the fans ethos they have been spouting.Well stated Tamb' The fans although united in our disdain of the proposed new system, and it's inequity are now guaranteed a point system that does two things that are counterproductive to the sport in the area of competition. The race winner IMO still does not receive a suitable reward for this accomplishment. Consequently Bernie gets a series that is guaranteed numerically to keep the final outcome of the season in doubt longer regardless of how dominant a team/driver is. In the case of a very close finish the outcome could be dubious, although we haven't had any travesty of justice yet.
With the likelihood of their being a clarification/modification to the diffuser rule by Spain.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/5026837/Diffuser-row-set-to-overshadow-Formula-One-season-opener.html


One possibility is that all the teams agree that it is illegal, and therefore all the teams shouldn't have it from Barcelona. But then those teams who say it is legal will say 'Why should we do that?' And those that say it's illegal will say 'Why should we lose an advantage for four races?'

"And so probably what will happen is it will end up going to the stewards, who will make a decision. That will almost certainly be appealed by whichever side is disadvantaged. And then that will go to our Court of Appeal and be hammered out."

The outcome of this seasons championship stands a very good chance of being the most contentious, debated, and possibly irrelevant in the history the series! MO

[Nikki Katz]

So as the FIA now has plenty of time before 2010, can they now push through their new rule for that season even if it's unanimously rejected by the teams? Power struggles aside, don't they think there might be a reason that everyone's so unhappy with it?

[patnicholls]

What should've happened was this:

"The FIA today announced a revision to the Formula One points system, after revealing that the scoring system will mirror that already featured in motorcycle racing. The popular system - which awards 25 points to the winner, 20 for second place, 16 for third, 13 for fourth and then 11 for fifth down to a single point for 15th - had been mulled over by the teams for a year before being confirmed after unanimous approval. The points system was shown by statistics to give a reasonable advantage to the winner over second and third places, as well as giving those teams further down the field something to play for with points running to 15th.

A note concerning the points change will be noted in all forthcoming F1 textbooks to avoid difficulties with the popular 'all-time points' chart which will now be scrapped due to the enequality with previous points systems.

The FIA chose not to publish a list of which past title results would have changed if the new points system was applied, mainly due to such revisionism being completely inappropriate."

[jjanicke]

Did they? Short-term yes, long-term maybe not.

It could now be said that they listened to the teams, the fans and changed accordingly, thereby giving them credibility in future disputes (i.e - the FIA has shown itself willing to compromise, back-track and change, now FOTA have to do the same or they will be percieved by the wider world as being unreasonable)

Funnily enough, the majority of people who wanted a change from what is a crap points system (only two more points for winning is not good) are now delirious that we have a system whereby you only get two more points for winning.

No wonder the FIA tried it on when the majority of fans are self evidently brain dead enough to demand change but be happy with status quo.

All FOTA have achieved is maintaining the status quo. Not exactly the progressive, listen to the fans ethos they have been spouting.

Why are "two more points" for winning not good? So you bump it to three or four more points, and then what? When the guy with second or third most wins, but very consistent, takes the WDC then three or four more points are no good either.

To me it's clear the "most wins" rule isn't compelling. However I can't make that argument for 2 more points for 1st. The way it's set up today, it's not just 2 more points for 1st, it's 2 more points, 4 more points, 5 more points, etc.


Well stated Tamb' The fans although united in our disdain of the proposed new system, and it's inequity are now guaranteed a point system that does two things that are counterproductive to the sport in the area of competition. The race winner IMO still does not receive a suitable reward for this accomplishment. Consequently Bernie gets a series that is guaranteed numerically to keep the final outcome of the season in doubt longer regardless of how dominant a team/driver is. In the case of a very close finish the outcome could be dubious, although we haven't had any travesty of justice yet.
With the likelihood of their being a clarification/modification to the diffuser rule by Spain.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/5026837/Diffuser-row-set-to-overshadow-Formula-One-season-opener.html

The outcome of this seasons championship stands a very good chance of being the most contentious, debated, and possibly irrelevant in the history the series! MO

What constitutes "suitable"? Any point system based changes seem to only slightly effect the past WDC results. Sometime the winner is runner up, other times nothing changes. Is it really that big a deal?

We have a "yard stick" to measure performance based on consistent placement within the top 8 positions. The only argument I can come up with is that performance should be measured all the way down to last place, not just some arbitrary 8th place. Other than that gradate the points as you like, but 2, 3, 4 or X more points for 1st is really inconsequential. Measure performance by one consistent yard stick and I'm good.